The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Detective Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
Finalist -Independent Podcast Awards 2024
*music: the coffee jam ©stereo_jam
The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Kate Ruby: From Screen to Page and Crafting Thrillers
Kate Ruby, renowned author and TV producer, joins me to unpack her incredible journey from crafting lighthearted rom-coms to penning edge-of-your-seat domestic thrillers. This episode doesn't just skim the surface; we dissect Kate's career evolution and delve into the unique experiences that shaped her storytelling skills, from her unconventional childhood to her dynamic roles in television production at major networks like Channel 4 and the BBC.
Her insights into transitioning between the collaborative nature of TV and the solitary world of novel writing offer invaluable lessons for any creative balancing multiple pursuits.
Kate and I talk about her new novel, Everything You Have, discuss adapting books for TV and dissect the demands of both screenwriting and novel writing. The conversation is rich with advice for anyone looking to navigate the unpredictable waters of the publishing industry and creative fields, emphasizing the need for resilience, adaptability, and authenticity.
Everything You Have
The perfect assistant is not all she seems in this gripping suspense thriller from the author of the Richard & Judy pick Tell Me Your Lies.
Sasha Fulton looks like she has it all – the glittering media career, the happy marriage, the perfect kids. But the truth behind the shining façade is very different. The job is nothing but pressure, and the stroppy teens aren’t even hers. She’s fast reaching breaking point.
When Sasha’s new twenty-something assistant Jenna walks through the door, she seems like the answer to her prayers. Dazzlingly efficient, with a whip-smart wit, Sasha’s soon wondering how she ever lived without her.
But with trouble mounting at home and at work, Sasha is starting to lose control. As the lines between professional and personal become dangerously blurred, she feels like there’s only one person she can rely on.
Sasha is heading for a fall. But is Jenna there to catch her, or to push her over the edge?
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A really successful writer in the US, said this to me when I was first thinking well, secretly, I would quite like to write. Robin Schiff, who wrote Romeo and Michelle's High School Reunion. She now writes for me in Paris. She said to me just set a timer, sit down, write for half an hour every morning, even if you're just literally typing. I hate writing.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. I'm going to be honest, I wasn't sure if you were going to get an episode this week. The reason why last week I was at that last stage of completing my edits for book four and last Tuesday. So this time last week I was looking at my manuscript and and it's a physical printout of the manuscript that I do the initial set of editing notes on and I'm looking at this stack of papers highlighted purple notes, red notes, blue notes, post-it notes, everything on this manuscript and I'm looking at it and I'm thinking there is no way. No way I'm going to finish this before my deadline or by my deadline. I just thought there's no way. And the thing is, I've done most of the work. I've done most of the work. It's just transferring it onto the screen and I just thought I'm not going to get it done. I'm not going to get it done and if I don't get it done, I'm not going to have time to do my podcast, which was just edit this episode and do the intros and pull it out, because I do it all myself. I just thought it's not going to happen, but by miracle, by miracle, which is why I'm very happy, I'm extremely happy. There's been a lot of dancing, a lot of dancing involved. I completed my edits at I think it was 5.35 on Friday evening. I completed my edits. So I've been ecstatic, I've been overjoyed and it meant that I was able to complete this podcast. So I'm pleased. I'm pleased to be joining you today.
Speaker 2:I'm pleased that you get to hear from my amazing guest, who is the author, kate Ruby, and she's also a TV producer, and in our episode we were talking about a number of things, but including how to stay on top of projects, because, as a TV producer, I'm sure she says that at some point she's got seven projects on the go, which is crazy, because could you imagine having seven writing projects on the go? In theory, I had the edits to do on this manuscript. I was also completing a short story, so that was two projects. I also was kind of planning out books five and six for Henley, so I suppose I was kind of working on four things, which is a lot. It really is a lot, which is a lot, it really is a lot, and I'd made a concerted effort in 2024 to be really organised, and I think I succeeded in that. But in 2025, I want to do even better. As in, I want to have a clear idea of what I'm going to be focusing on and what I'm going to be working on, and not have this crazy scattergun approach. Anyway, enough about me, let's get on with my show.
Speaker 2:This week, I'm in conversation with author Kate Ruby and in our conversation we talk about moving from rom-coms to domestic thrillers, the transition from TV producer to novel writer and adapting a book for the screen. Now, as always, sit, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Kate Ruby, welcome to the conversation. Thank you, nadine. Right, my first question for you is how would you describe your publishing journey?
Speaker 1:that's an interesting one, um. So I first published um in 2009. Um, under a different name, under my uh Kate Ruby is actually a pseudonym, um, but under my real name, um, and it was a rom-com, and I was in a dilemma. Um, I was in that moment in a relationship where you either have to get married or accept that it's not going to work out, and I started to novelize the dilemma. It wasn't my story exactly, but I started thinking that it was actually quite a fun premise for a rom-com.
Speaker 1:Um and um, I went away and did an Arvon course, which was residential for a few days, just sort of got the words down, not expecting that it would flow, and it did. And someone there told an agent at Curtis Brown about it. I was incredibly lucky, honestly. And then they contacted me and asked to read it. And then they took me on as a client and then I finished it and then, yeah, there was a tiny little bidding war for it, uh and uh, penguin bought it. And then I published, yeah, four rom-coms and then moved more into the kind of domestic thriller space my research has been so rubbish.
Speaker 2:I normally pride myself doing my research and I'm like I had no idea about the rom-coms and that you'd written four of them yeah, I get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I do. I do kind of now I go as Kate Ruby. I've got a kind of um, I'm a bit of a spy.
Speaker 2:I've got two identities do you feel like because I've asked it with other people who use pseudonyms for their books or have written they've written different in different genres and under different names. Do you feel as though you become a different person if you're writing, or when you were writing rom-coms in comparison to writing domestic thrillers?
Speaker 1:It feels like a long time ago now. It feels like kind of different. You know, I was in my early 30s. It was kind of a different point in my life, so these feel much more psychologically interesting to me at this point in my 40s and who are you before you became the published author, because I'm always interested in people who they were before they started on this journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, I've had a long career in television drama, which I feel very grateful for. So I guess I've been working with story um my whole career, um since I was in my early 20s. Um, at the very start of my career I was a television publicist, but then I wanted to kind of get my hands more dirty, um. So, yeah, so I've kind of built a career out of narrative and story and hoping to reach a wide audience with those stories.
Speaker 2:Did you always know that you was a creative person, like as a child?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I loved stories and I had quite an unusual childhood and we didn't have a tv and I was an only child with quite with quite eccentric parents, so books were a real comfort for me and stories and a real escape. So yeah, it's always been kind of part of my life journey.
Speaker 2:I'm just like I'm sitting there trying to think if I've spoken to anyone on this podcast who grew up without a tv, like everyone's always spoken about being surrounded by books at home, or they went libraries, no that sort of um story regarding books but I don't think I've spoken to anyone who didn't grow up with a tv, which is the opposite for me, because my dad is an electronic engineer so I was surrounded by tvs because he was fixing tvs and so we always had tvs. So it's such a part, like a strong part, of my life yeah, yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:Well, it's pretty stupid to be a television executive who grew up without television.
Speaker 2:But there we are. Do you think that's what drew you to it? To TV.
Speaker 1:Well, it certainly used to be like when I got to go round to a friend's house and they had a TV. It was pretty exciting to be able to go and watch French Hill.
Speaker 2:So who can say and what was it like when you got home? So you know, you've been at your friend's house watching Grange Hill. I loved Grange Hill watching Grange Hill yeah, and then you return home. What was that moment like?
Speaker 1:for you. I mean, I really wanted to see Vinodine, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 2:I didn't think this is how this podcast recording was gonna start off, with like just talking to someone who works in TV, but the fact that they grew up without you just can't you just can't imagine it now, because you know you can. You can sit at a bus stop looking at your phone catching up on tv. You don't need to have a physical set in your house. Yeah, I think that just nothing.
Speaker 2:I say nothing when you had books, but I had a lot of books I read the little house on the prairie a lot of times but you wouldn't have seen little house on the prairie, which was so good no need to rub it in. I'm sorry let me get a hold of myself, I'm sorry. So when you went into TV you said you started out as a publicist. Yes, did you know what you meant by trying to get your hand? That you wanted to get your hands dirty?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean it was a really fun job to do straight out of college. I was was really lucky to get it, but I just I really wanted to rather than kind of working on other people's creative endeavours although it was fun to like write press releases and all of that kind of thing, you know I really wanted to actually be kind of making stories, um, yeah, so then I moved to channel four and then I moved to the BBC and then I worked on a couple of crime shows and then in a really junior capacity, and then kind of worked my way up through various, various shows. I did like a show called where the heart is um for ITV and um, and then, uh, did an adaptation of Nicholas Nickleby and then went back to the BBC and worked on all kinds of different shows over a long period Things like being Human and Spooks and Rome and, yeah, really fun big shows.
Speaker 2:Wow, you said you were working on these shows. I'm just really interested in just like being a kid and being younger and being creative. What were your outlets like in terms of exploring that creativity?
Speaker 1:what as a kid do you mean? Yeah, I suppose. I mean I grew up in London, um, and not loads, just school really, and I suppose my, my parents were quite kind of bookish, so they really sort of you know like, gave me stories, um, yeah, and when you were in school did you find like that was encouraged, that creativity, that creative spark that you had?
Speaker 1:not massively, honestly. I don't know about you, but you know school in London in the kind of 80s and 90s wasn't like the most um. They weren't like sitting around nurturing your inner soul in quite the way that maybe they might be now.
Speaker 2:I don't know no, it's funny because when I look at my like my nieces and nephews and my friends children going to school, especially going to secondary school, it feels like exploring that creative part of them. It's such a it's now become like a bigger part of the curriculum, whereas I thought you said back in the 80s and 90s it was just you just need to go to school, get your qualifications and then get out, go to the next step yeah, yeah, no.
Speaker 1:So I lucky, you know I've had some real opportunities, you know, in building that TV career. But also you know my journey into being published was really like relatively easy in comparison to some people and I don't take that, you know, I don't take that lightly, because I know how hard you get published.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did you know what to expect? I know, you said you did the course and yeah, but I always think there's there's know, you said you did the course and yeah, but I always think there's there's a difference, because I did, I do the course, but there's a difference in, like you're doing the course and then knowing the you know someone tells you, you know, you apply for agents and this is the process, what happens? But did you really you think you fully appreciated or fully understood what it entailed to become an author?
Speaker 1:who does you know? And also you know, there was this tiny little bidding war for the first book and then it sold about nine copies, um, when it came out. And then the second book actually sold really well, but the first one that everyone was so excited about, just you know, didn't really do much at all what does that I've got?
Speaker 2:I'm saying due to your psyche, but that's the only way I could think of phrasing it, but because you never, you know, you know, it's like when you're, you're in that auction and everyone's telling you they want you, yeah, and everyone's telling you that your book's amazing and that you're going to be amazing and that you're going to fly off the shelves and this is the best thing ever.
Speaker 2:And as you said it comes to publication and then someone at some point tells you yeah, I'm nine, you sold nine copies, but Like what does that do to? You emotionally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that was tough, but I think it's also made me quite sanguine. Now, you know, everything you have which I just published is my eighth book and at this point I feel like you have to kind of. You know I've been very lucky to be writing under contract, but you have to write for the love of it and not be too attached to the outcome. I mean the pre my previous book, tell me all lies, which is about a therapist who infiltrates a family, um, and seems like she's at the beginning she seems like she's the answer to their prayers, that they're sort of 20 something daughters going off the rails, and then gradually you realize that she's got a nefarious agenda. Um, that book got Richard and Judy, which obviously gave it a massive boost. And then there was a kind of quite a big kerfuffle for the TV rights as well. So that was that was really exciting, I was really grateful. And then again, with everything you have, it's been options TV as well. So you know it swings and roundabouts in this business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you think you know working in roundabouts in this business? Yeah, do you think you know working in tv and having that tv background? Because, of course, I think all writers will say there's, at some point you'll face rejection and it could be. It could be in terms of book sales. It could be your editor saying, yeah, I don't like this idea. Let's look. Let's look at a different idea but do you think that you know working in tv that's prepared you for dealing with rejection as an author?
Speaker 1:Yes, I suppose so, because at the same time, you know, I'm developing various TV projects with different writers and often you think, oh my God, this is about to get greenlit, it's going to be massive, and then that doesn't necessarily happen and it's gutting. Green lit is going to be massive, and then that doesn't necessarily happen and it's gutting, so you know, and then something else might suddenly develop momentum and be, you know, like a really big show, like there's a thriller I did a few years ago called the Girl. Before that, you know, we went through a whole complicated development process and it was during Covid, and you think this is never going to happen. And then suddenly we had like really big cast like Gugu Mbatha-Raw and David Yellowo, and it was like a really big deal and it was on HBO in the US. So you know, you have to roll with the punches, I guess.
Speaker 2:Do you think there's things in your you know growing up that made that, prepared you for that, like that roller coaster of being a possibly, yeah, I mean, yeah, I had quite a complicated time.
Speaker 1:So I think that, um, I don't I try not to take things too personally, or you know, I kind of yeah, quite good at, you know, dealing with stressful situations, and certainly TV production can be very stressful what's the most stressful?
Speaker 2:if you had to say, if you've got to pick one component of it, what's the most stressful part of it?
Speaker 1:I think what quite often happens is you have one script that you work on and you work on and you work on with the writer and broadcaster for for maybe two years and then suddenly you get a green light, which is brilliant, but then they're like we want it on screen in like x amount of time and then you it's a complete kick-ballot scramble to get everything else done to the standard. You get it done in order to have it, you know, on screen. And then you know casting can be traumatic as well because you obviously particularly now we have a very crowded market you want, you know, a real, you need to find a profile in your cast to cut through in a really overcrowded space. So, um, that can be really stressful sometimes when you lose the person that you were desperate to do it, it can just be, um, it can, uh, just be a little bit devastating yeah, did you find it, um, a challenge or was it easy?
Speaker 2:you know, transitioning from, you know, working in production, where you're working with a massive team, and you said it could be something you know from optioning a piece of work and then going through to production and post-description, post-production. Is it a challenge, then, being on your own as a writer, right?
Speaker 1:well, I do a full-time job so I only spend I, you know, most of the time when I'm writing. It's like first thing in the morning, um yeah, and I'm doing like a couple of hours and then going to work, so I don't spend that much time on my own doing it. I don't have the time to do it. I would find it, but to that point I think I would find it really challenging to be a full-time writer, because it does demand it. You know it is an awful lot of, you know, isolation. I get quite a lot out of having the two careers, even though it can be a real juggle were you surprised, like?
Speaker 2:that's how your life has turned out, having these two careers with the TV production and the writing it's ridiculous, it's not really sustainable, but I really enjoy them both.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, I'm also having fun because, um, the new book as well everything you have is being developed for tv and I'm an executive producer on on it. Um, the premise for that one is that it is a uh boss who has this kind of whip smart assistant who she thinks is gonna be, um, the absolute answer to her prayers. She works in this in a branding agency, so kind of uh devising campaigns for big brands and you know, kind of sort of glamorous on the outside but actually really tough and demanding, um, and she also has quite a complicated domestic situation where she's desperate for a baby but she only has stepchildren. Um, anyway, jenna enters her life and seems to just kind of bring everything into focus and make everything easier, and then you realize that actually jenna's subtly undermining her at work and it kind of reaches a crescendo and you're asking yourself what is her motivation here?
Speaker 2:um, and that, hopefully, is a big twist at the end yeah, well, um, when you're writing that, when you're writing that book I know we're with the Richard and Judy pick tell me your lies and I read that it was loosely inspired on on a, I say, a real life scenario, and I was asked this question at a panel um I think was it back in the summer, it could have been last year about using real life events or real life people, stories in your own books. Do you ever think about that? Because my answer was if I don't do it, someone else is going to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was very, very loosely inspired by a therapist who's been pursued by a lot of kind of highfalutin families in in london who felt that she exerted undue influence on their daughters. Um, I moved it away from that story quite a lot as well because I was more interested in creating. I love shows like succession, I love writing about big, complicated families, um, and I really wanted to give um the family in that story lots of secrets, lots of, uh, their own kind of nefarious agendas that are going on, so you're kind of constantly pulled back and forth as to who you can trust. Um, so it wasn't like I was sort of trying to replicate that story per se, but I did find that idea of, uh, the kind of access and control you might have as a therapist and how that kind of filters out into a family really fascinating it's amazing.
Speaker 2:You know good like talking about your, about your new book as well, everything you have. It's when you look at how much people can influence their surroundings and the people around it, and then sometimes those people.
Speaker 1:They have no idea that it's happening because it's it's so subtle yeah, it's insidious, yeah, and I really wanted to write about the workplace actually and the dynamics within a workplace because, you know, psychologically I think the workplace is a really interesting arena. You know, we potentially spend more time with our colleagues than we do with our own families and if there is um, you know, if there are difficult personal, professional dynamics at work, they can really affect the whole of your life. Um, and equally, you know, if you make a close friend at work and then it goes wrong, well, you can't divorce them, you can't uh, stop returning their calls. You've still got to be in like a team meeting with them every monday, that you know what kind of pressure cooker environment does that create?
Speaker 2:and then, if you give it a thriller context, you're, you're, hopefully, you know you're off to the races yeah, I remember, and I was um, I graduated from uni, so I was 21, and my uncle took me to lunch. You know that was like you've graduated, I'm taking you out for lunch. I'm like, okay, he's taking me out to lunch, but part of it was congratulations, finishing uni. But the other half was right. I'm now going to tell you about the real world, and one of the things that I'll never forget he said to me is that you will never know what it's like, you know what people are like until you work with them, because until you work in that office environment, you won't truly understand people. And I remember thinking I have no idea what you're talking about, uncle Michael. And the minute I went to work and I think it's because I used to work at the BBC in Talents Rights, and it was a massive, massive office, open, planned office. You know so many different personalities and you're dealing with management and everybody and I thought, oh, now I understand.
Speaker 1:Now I understand what it means working with people and understanding people yeah, it's really complex and the the other aspect of everything you have is that it's very much about the generational divides as well between kind of the perhaps entitlement of gen x in some ways and the kind of shifting attitudes of gen z, and I really wanted to create a um a story again with alternate viewpoints on on events, where you kind of have sympathy and frustration with both sides, that there aren't easy heroes and villains as a writer because I was interested to know when did you?
Speaker 2:did you always feel comfortable, from the beginning, calling yourself a writer, or was it something that you had to lean into?
Speaker 1:I suppose I had a slightly strange path because I wasn't like trying to write for ages. And then so I, you know, I did that, arvon course, and then I got an agent, you know, sort of off the back of it. So in a sense then I did, you know, I kind of was a writer in that I had professional representation. But I think it is complicated for people when they're kind of trying to do it as a side hustle, and how much ownership take of that before something's happened, um. But I think it's also it's a real kind of way that I've taught writing a little bit as well and I think it's a real uh, you know, kind of it can be quite therapeutic full stop, whether or not you get published.
Speaker 2:Just it's a kind of method of self-expression that can be incredibly cathartic and you know, when you're teaching writing and I've asked this of other writers who teach and mentor what is, what do you think is like the main, like misconception that you have to address when you're working with new writers?
Speaker 1:um, I think some of it's about discipline. Actually, I think it's about like not having like seven works in progress. It's also about creating a bit of order in terms of just actually like a really successful writer in the US said this to me when I was first thinking oh, secretly, I would quite like to write. Uh, robin Schiff, who wrote Romeo and Michelle's High School Reunion she now writes in Paris. She said to me just set a timer, sit down, write for half an hour every morning, even if you're just literally typing. I hate writing and actually it's incredibly good advice because, like, a book is so long and it's a journey of 1000 steps, so just keep taking the next step. Is that what you tell yourself? I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, when I'm on chapter one, why am I doing this? Um, but I would. I would also say that I do think courses or, you know, maybe hiring someone to to teach you, can be incredibly helpful. I do think it's quite hard to just start writing in a vacuum.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and kind of support or group as well can just be really, really helpful was there anything that you know once you're in the publishing industry, you know dealing with your rom-coms first and you know your first your first books are going out. Was there anything that surprised you that you thought you would have been like prepared for? Because you know you're working in this other industry for so long? You probably think I can deal with anything, like I always think, as you know, being a lawyer, there's nothing that could shake me. I can deal with anything. And you get in publishing.
Speaker 1:You're like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no yeah, I guess it's things like you know, say, uh, the publisher has this hasn't happened to me for many years but a cover where you're just like I really don't think that represents a book or I really don't think that's gonna grab a uh, grab a casual uh buyer in in WA Smith or whatever. That's quite hard, that you don't have much control over that. Um, similarly, sometimes they've I wanted to change the title and it hasn't necessarily felt 100% right, and then you're kind of grappling to find the right title and I think it's both wanting to respect people's expertise but also just keep a bit of a clear focus on what your mission for that book is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you think being in being in TV TV helped you deal with especially that editing process and working with the editors and having maybe 101 comments about what you should be doing with your character and your plot? Do you feel, because you're so, you always work with this community of people when you're producing a show Did it help you with that part of the writing process?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I suppose because I give you with that part of the writing process. Yeah, I suppose because I give notes quite a lot of the time in my tv job writers writing on scripts. I'm pretty I've been very lucky with my editors. I've really kind of respected the feedback I've been given. Um I where I'd say that the tv probably helps me as well in kind of just conceptualizing novels. It's just knowing that you need a really kind of clear grabb novels. It's just knowing that you need a really kind of clear, grabbable concept up top and then you need a real specificity in the story so it doesn't feel generic but that kind of very kind of graspable proposition for the reader or for the publisher who's buying the book is so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when you're writing those.
Speaker 1:You know it's the same when I'm pitching those to broadcasters.
Speaker 2:If you can't like really nail what the concept is, quickly to the BBC or Sky, they're just going to glaze over that's always so hard though, because, you know, even like myself, I was talking to my agent and we're talking about writing standalones. I'm like, yeah, I've got some ideas. But I was saying to a friend last week, yeah, me having the idea is one thing. Me trying to now condense that idea into a pitch that I can just throw to my agent and say, you know, so he can make a quick decision on it, that is really hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it is difficult but it's worth doing. It's worth really just kind of going back to it and going back to it. Um, it's funny because sometimes with a tv idea, we might be, say, pitching it in a more us style to like a few different broadcasters. Um, and each pitch you do, you kind of learn what hasn't necessarily connected on other pitches and then you refine it the next time you deliver it and, um, yeah, I think it's just that constant boiling down yeah.
Speaker 2:Is there a big difference then between pitching to the US and in comparison to a UK production company?
Speaker 1:um, they there can be, because it's sometimes you don't sort of necessarily do like a formalized pitch. In the UK you it tends to be a more informal conversation, or increasingly you're working off, you commission a script and then you're going out with the script. So the concept is laid out, whereas in the US you're more. It's more common that you do like a 20 to 25 minute presentation on the whole series and then they decide whether they're going to commission a script off the back of that.
Speaker 2:What was that like for you the very first time you found yourself pitching to a US production company, when you know, especially when you've been doing it a certain way with the UK they're so informally, and then you have to deliver well, it's normally me coaching a screenwriter to do that and then making sure I set them up properly at the beginning and all of that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, it definitely takes a different kind of.
Speaker 2:You know, it requires showmanship is that a surprise for the writers? Because you know. You know it's like being a writer it's just you. I guess you're in a writer's room, but most of the time it's just you and you don't have to be a showman, because you're half the time you're sitting there in your leggings and your hoodie.
Speaker 1:You know trying to get something done.
Speaker 2:And now you're, you're, you're saying to the writer you now need, you need to put on the show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think it can be a bit of a shock, you know, and you have to kind of give people the right support to do that and really work on that pitch together do you think that's a difference?
Speaker 2:um, in with writing I say publishing in comparison to tv, they're having that level of support and preparation, preparing you for the next step. Do you think that that travels through in both industries or?
Speaker 1:um, I think novel writing is a lot more solitary, isn't it? You're spending a lot of time, just as you say, stuck in your bedroom in your leggings with a tea bag trying to trying to churn out the words. That is why I couldn't do it full time and I have massive respect for people like you who do. But uh, yeah, it's, a TV is certainly more collaborative, and then, obviously, when you go into production, you know you're suddenly adding like a hundred people to the mix.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you're writing everything, you have what were like the main challenges for you writing that book. Especially because it doesn't matter, I could say book number eight is everything you have. Yeah, and I mean I've written four, no, no, technically five books I've written and I find it, thank you, but it doesn't get easier with the next book and you think it should do, you think it would be. You know I've done this three, four, five, six times before book seven or eight.
Speaker 1:I've got it down yeah, yeah, I think I think for me, in some ways, it gets harder because I'm pushing myself more and more and trying to get the prose more and more polished and trying to make sure that the concept is as robust as it can possibly be and that the twists fall in the right place but they feel properly emotionally motivated. That's really important to me. I hate those books where you're just suddenly like but that character wouldn't the character you painted an episode in chapter two would never have done that in chapter 12. So it's a lot of it's a lot of refinement.
Speaker 2:You find it a challenge switching your brain around, because I did a screenwriting course and I've got a screen, a screenplay that's been sitting on my computer for far too long and I just find it switching my head from novel writing to screenwriting to be. It takes a lot of mental work to do that. Did you find that a challenge initially?
Speaker 1:um, yeah, I think they are slightly different. I mean, I have done some screenwriting and I had a project at Sky that didn't happen in the end, but I, uh, largely on the screenwriting side I'm supporting writers rather than doing it myself. But yeah, sometimes, sometimes just sort of, you know, starting the day super early, trying to get those words down and then trying to kind of have the creative focus to do everything that I need to do in the day, it can be quite an exhausting process.
Speaker 2:What do screenwriters come to you with their concerns, like what are the most common um?
Speaker 1:I think it's often just about how you're best structuring a story to kind of get the, to get that concept across, but give it enough kind of surprise over over the pilot episode and make it stand out in the market so it actually gets all the way to green light. Um, I've just done a couple of rom-coms actually, so it's kind of nice to go back into that rom-com world. Um, yeah, we did a show called the flat share for paramount plus. That did really well for them. Um, and we've got another another it's an adaptation of a best-selling beth o'leary book and we've done a second beth o'leary book, the road, that's coming out this Christmas. And the kind of genre conventions in rom-com are obviously quite different from the genre conventions in a thriller. So you're kind of trying to create your kind of jeopardy and momentum in slightly different ways. But it's all fundamentally about character and structure.
Speaker 2:Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. I was going to ask you about that. That's it about adapting books. Yeah, from. Yeah, adapting from from the page to the screen. Yeah, well, I don't know if like easiest to write. How hard is it? Like, what are the main challenges of doing that? Because obviously you can't put everything in the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, on the screen yeah, well, that's a really interesting question, nadine, because I've now done it with quite a lot of books that we've optioned and then brought to the screen the Girl Before the Flat Share, the Road Trip, watership Down.
Speaker 2:Rabbits. Oh my god, I'm so traumatized. I'm so traumatized from the 1970s Watership Down yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I've done it from that side. You know, working with other people's texts and I'm, you know, kind of super respectful of the books I really like to. You know I love books and I really want every author that we work with to feel really good about what we've done. But then also I've gone through the process with my own books.
Speaker 1:I've had like four of them optioned, and certainly with Tell Me your Lies, it's interesting because it's being developed for a big US network at the moment and you know we've added lots of elements that aren't in the book. You know there's a, there's a murder now which isn't in the book and things like that. But actually the requirements of a TV series are so different from the requirements of a novel, particularly because often you're trying to construct a series that can be multi-season, so normally a book, kind of self-enclosed. You know it's a, it's a complete story and that's what the reader wants. But um, when you're, when you're moving into tv, you've then got to you can't resolve things so much necessarily and you've got to create kind of bigger, more explosive plot so that you can generate like 24 episodes ideally.
Speaker 2:You know when you're working with writers, so you know they've written their novel, and then they decided, or they, you know they want to be involved in the adaptation of their novel. What is the I would say, what is the biggest challenge you find, like for the, for that writer? Because you know you have an attachment to your work. Yeah, when my first book was optioned, I was like I, this is not my skill set. Like so, yeah, I'm happy for someone else to do it. But afterwards I was like it's my book, like I could feel that attachment, like, yeah, my heart spring.
Speaker 1:yeah, completely. Um, I think it varies project to project. I mean, it's been. We've had a brilliant relationship with all the authors that we've worked with, which I'm really glad about.
Speaker 1:But on the go, before the author actually adapted it himself and he hadn't.
Speaker 1:He'd written before but he hadn't had anything greenlit.
Speaker 1:So when I went to him and said that I really wanted to option it it's originally been optioned by Ron Howard of the manuscript and then we're going to do it as a movie and then it didn't work out in the development process and obviously that was a big Hollywood auction.
Speaker 1:And then I was coming to him as a kind of British producer saying trust me with this this time round I'm going to try and get it all the way. And one of the things I said to him was that you know, I knew he wanted to adapt it, that I'd love to support him to do that, and we did get it all the way and we got it green lit. But then in other instances authors can be, you know, very kind of hands off and not have much to do with it. But yeah, I think it's working with the author in the right way so that they feel included and part of the process and that you're respecting their work but also making them feel okay about coming on the journey with you, for all the inevitable changes that you're going to make.
Speaker 2:Are you able to put yourself, you know, with most of your own books, so with everything you have, and Tell Me your Life? Are you able to put yourself in that that place, as as the writer and I'm handing it over to someone else- are you?
Speaker 1:able to step back and be comfortable with that yeah, I think so I mean I am an executive producer on both of them, so I've only stepped back. But uh, yeah, the, the screenwriter who's adapting them, um, is absolutely fantastic, and I'm working with another exec producer, um, from another company, on them as well. So you know, I have to not be too precious and I'm so grateful for all the input that they've put in, because probably to just be producing it on my own would be too hard. You wouldn't necessarily see the bigger picture always. So it's been a really positive experience.
Speaker 2:I'm going to ask a really silly question because I mean I always say to my to my students that there's no silly questions, but sometimes like, what exactly is an executive producer?
Speaker 1:okay, not a silly question at all, it's a very good question. So as an executive producer you've got the kind of overall responsibility for the whole production. So it can mean different things. But for me I because I come from a creative development background it tends to be that I'm there from inception to the very end. So I might say with something like the girl before, find a book, try and option it, which may be competitive. So then I have to try and you know, kind of win a pitch effectively. Um, then I will try and set it up with a broadcaster. So with that, having optioned it, took it to the BBC and then they took it into development, which doesn't mean it will necessarily happen, but it means that they're kind of committing to trying to get it all the way. Um, then I will potentially um with that.
Speaker 1:The author was adapting it, but often I'll be then looking for somebody to adapt the novel. So say, I've got Five Bad Deeds, which is a brilliant novel by Kaz Freer under option at the moment. Oh, yes, she's amazing, yeah, she's fantastic, I love that book. And then we've got a big screenwriter who we brought onto it, who's now adapting it. So that's a big part of the process is finding the right adapter and then after that we'll go through a number of drafts and then hopefully get it greenlit by a broadcaster. But sometimes you might need to pull other levers to get that to happen. So say, with the girl, before we actually attached Gugu Mbatha-Raw, before it was um, before it was greenlit, to increase its chances, um. And then also, then the choice of director is really important the rest of the casting doing the rest of the scripts, which is often a kickball scramble um, I love that I have a kickball sclamations Overseeing the actual production itself. At that point there's lots of people who are technically much better than me. Like you know, there'll be a producer and a whole production team doing all the various things that need to happen. Like you know, costume and actually, like with the Girl Before we had to build, it's all based around this kind of sinister architecturally designed house. So we built that in a studio in bristol during lockdown, um, so that that's a whole kind of.
Speaker 1:There's so much kind of in really detailed thought that has to go into how you're now going to realize that script, because you could have a brilliant script and then you could really screw it up by. You know, making the wrong choices in, say, casting director, even music, can really skew things. All of that and then the editing process is really key. Things change enormously in the edit. You know, you may find that you really kind of significantly restructure a story because when you're watching it, as it was on the page doesn't feel propulsive on screen. So you know that whole process is really really elaborate. At the other end you always think, you know, you wrap a production and you think, oh, I'm going to breathe out, and then it's like no breathing out, there's a lot more to do now.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I'm sitting there like just like wow, because you know, when you compare it to writing a book, you know not that writing a book it's not hard. Of course it's hard, but your role is quite set. You know, you write the book, you're in control, you're in control of building that world. And then you know, you pass it on to your editor and then you have this back and forth interactive process where you're just trying to create it into something better and then it goes off and it's published. But the fact that you could, you know, spend all these, I say, weeks producing the show, you know, making the program, and then you said you sit there in an edit room, yeah, and realize actually this doesn't work, yeah, or?
Speaker 1:it needs to change or it's, you know it needs to change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah because I would be like what the hell?
Speaker 1:there's always a minute where you think, oh, my god, is this going to come together? Right? But then they're always. You always come out the other side. I mean on a, on a first episode on a series, you get we call them cuts. So you go through a lot of different cuts of it, trying different things and like bring it out and you know, making changes to the music and things like that, um, and just trying to get the pacing and the tone right so that the audience know exactly what they're buying into in the first 10 minutes, in a way that you know, with such a crowded marketplace now you have to grab people so quickly, um, but it's a really, you know, it's a really fun and exciting process as well.
Speaker 2:I was going to ask you um about, you know, marketplace and trends, because you know, with publishing I would say you can't really predict a trend. You may, just it might. It's just a pure coincidence that you might get four or five books come out at the same time on similar themes and then that trend developed. Are you able to predict trends in tv production?
Speaker 1:well, I'd not necessarily, but you can definitely like, you can definitely see some. You know some waves, you know, when you look at, we've just done two, two rom-coms back to back and the flat share really struck a chord with a lot of people, I think, because it, you know, it had a lot of kind of warmth and integrity to it and, um, I think people enjoy the wish fulfillment of a rom-com and it's interesting, nobody wants this. With um, adam Brody and Kristen Bell, that you know dropped on Netflix about a month ago. It's been a phenomenon, you know. They recommissioned it really really quickly. Um, I think people are craving a bit of optimism. Um, and so good triumphing over ill in what is a, you know, pretty stressful world right now.
Speaker 1:Um, other trends, I think you know that kind of uh, that action space, sort of hijack uh space is really, you know a lot of people are looking for that. I mean I love the more characterful female skewed end of that market. I'm probably biased but um, like you know, killing me when it started. Or um, the flight then with um, which was an hbo max show, really, really enjoyable. Um, yeah, but it's funny when people you know I did, I wrote a piece recently about, you know, kind of book to film and how that works, and I know what people often think oh, you know, the thing to get option would be a really solid procedural. But actually it's really difficult to distinguish yourself in that space and every buyer probably has most of their kind of procedurals that they want, whereas sometimes something a little bit more off kilter can create, you know, can start a trend of its own perhaps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you're writing your own books, when you're writing, you know you're writing everything you have. What's your intention when you're, when you first start writing a book, is it just? This is the story I want to tell. These are the characters that you know. You've developed an attachment with me. You just want to tell that story, or are you thinking further ahead?
Speaker 1:yeah, oh, I definitely think further ahead, nadine. I'm not going to pretend, I definitely think in terms of the tv, a bit for sure um and um with this one. I'm really interested in how we portray the workplace on screen.
Speaker 1:So, like industry is such a massive hit, and I've just been in the same industry, yeah yeah, yeah, and I've just been in LA for work in the last couple of weeks as well and like that new series has been like it's exploded on HBO, um, but there aren't actually that many shows that are set in a workplace. You know, I mean, the morning show is obviously massive as well and plays with some of those kind of interpersonal dynamics in really clever ways, and even Slow Horses in a weird way is a workplace show, yeah, and that they all strut together in that stinky little office and you're really enjoying all the ways that they irritate each other and wind each other up. So I just felt that doing something, doing a thriller with a kind of workplace backdrop, gave real potential for tv and also for kind of being able to build multiple seasons out of that setting.
Speaker 2:Can you recognise when I'm saying this about books publishing? Can you recognise when writers are writing with that intention of not just the book Like? Can you see it?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I mean, I suppose, when people are very clearly thinking about the concept, maybe I don't know, though I mean I think any good book hopefully doesn't feel like a TV treatment, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I feel like it's been just like genetically modified to be optioned, but certainly certain concepts lend themselves much more to TV than others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I've read a couple of books and I'm not naming them in the last year and I closed the last page and I felt and it wasn't just me saying that other people I've spoken to they've read the same book and said I felt like this was just written for TV, like that was the clear intention that this should just be a TV movie series, whatever. It didn't feel like a novel. You know a. A TV movie series, whatever. It didn't feel like a novel, you know a whole novel in itself.
Speaker 1:It felt a bit mechanical, Like it lacked a bit of heart. It's just kind of like an exercise. Yeah God, I haven't read a book like that for a while but that was annoying me.
Speaker 2:It did because I feel like you said you're missing the heart of it. Yeah, and it's so apparent. You're not saying the story's not good in the characters, but then even sometimes like the character still, then felt a bit flat in a sense yeah, to be fair, actually I just read I've just started a thriller which is a sequel.
Speaker 1:It's an American book that it's a sequel. Her previous novel, which I really liked, ended up being a really big TV series. And this one feels a little bit like I've been rushed out and it's trying to kind of follow the same formula, but it doesn't have the heart of the first one. So I do know what you mean.
Speaker 2:So what are you working on next? What's your? What is Kate Ruby's publishing plans?
Speaker 1:I'm having a little bit of a breather actually, um to concentrate on trying to get um everything you have and tell me all lies actually to screen. I feel like I need a little bit of time before I stop, uh, before I start hitting my computer at 6 30 in the morning before the work begins what is your favorite part?
Speaker 2:so what's your favorite part of getting everything um? You have the screen because it's your book, it's your baby yeah, I love I.
Speaker 1:What I've really enjoyed is, um, that kind of process of like we had a writer's room for tell me your lies and like actually having you know lots of people feeding into something that you initially created and coming up with ideas and feeling that enthusiasm for the story. I found that weirdly. I found it actually quite moving. I felt very, uh, grateful and, um, touched by people's kind of care and attention for my book. Um, I'm looking forward to, with everything you have, really kind of getting into the weeds and pulling that, pulling the story apart and working out where to kind of make changes and expand it and all of that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:You know, I always ask writers about how they feel about social media and this. You know this PR side of it. How do you deal with that? Because you know you write under a pseudonym. You've got your TV. You've got your TV live. You've got your writing live. But then you know, know, people still need to know about the books.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, I'm actually quite shy so I don't love it, I have to admit. I'd rather be just typing in a in a small courtroom, yeah, or you know, pushing someone else's uh story forward, but I it's really important and I started as a PR so I do um, I do work hard at that side of things. I've just done a couple of uh quite big features, um for newspapers about various thematics. In everything you have um and yeah, um. Does that answer the question? Yeah, no, I do find social media hard. I mean Twitter just feels I know it's x now. I just feel like completely narcissistic so I'm very lazy about it well, everyone who listens to this podcast knows I'm.
Speaker 2:I do not use Twitter anymore, I just. It changed so much and I thought I'm gonna be wasting my time on something, I'll have to do it on something I enjoy. It's okay. I don't even need to ask you. Yeah, I don't need to ask you my first question, like my last set of questions. For the first one are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two? I'd say you'd be a hybrid.
Speaker 2:I'm a hybrid is it, um, I was say, is it hard when you're involved in this bubble of whether you're writing your books or producing this TV series? Is it hard then, transitioning to the next project? Are you able to move seamlessly into it?
Speaker 1:Do you mean like the next book? I mean I juggle a lot of different TV projects. It's sort of part of the job, but I do. I've been working this morning actually on a really fun legal thriller that we're adapting from a brilliant book and what I do find is, you know, you do like a three hour creative meeting and you're really thinking about each scene and what the intention is and what tweets will kind of make it clearer or more propulsive. I can't do like two of those meetings in a day, like you have to kind of really give yourself once and then after that I need to do slightly more kind of brain dead admin things in the afternoon and what about moving on to your own projects?
Speaker 2:because you know when you've done, when you, you know when you finish everything you have. Are you like? Right, that's, that's it, that's done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now next, or well, I haven't got to the next one yet, so obviously I'm not that um fleet of foot to be able to to start the next one. I think one of the things is that, um also, you know, when you're um, I've sort of finished that contract. So when you're in contract and you have to flip straight onto the next book, that can be quite a. You know you need a breath. It's it's quite a marathon. Then go straight. It sounds like that's that's what you do. It's it is. It's a long race to run, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it is, and I finished, so it would have been two weeks. Yeah, two weeks ago now I finished, I delivered my fourth book and I've had thank you, so I've had two weeks. So for the first week I was like I've got nothing to do, and then I had to adapt to not having anything to do. Then the second week I got sick. Yeah, and that's the thing it reminds me of. It's very similar to when I was doing trials and I was like and also it takes a completely different energy. It's a mental energy, but then it's a mental energy that manifests into the physical. So when you do stop, your brain stops, like your body then says right, I need to stop too.
Speaker 1:I've been on the go yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most? Oh, that's a big question. Um what challenge?
Speaker 1:um experience yeah, I had quite a complex childhood and I went into therapy quite young, um, and I think a lot of my books are about, uh, like thematically, are about that arc from not really understanding yourself to understanding yourself, and I've also written about therapy quite extensively. So I wrote two books where the therapist, the lead character, is a female therapist who gets involved in criminal cases and then Tell Me All Lies is obviously about a nefarious therapist, and then Tell Me All Lies is obviously about a nefarious therapist.
Speaker 2:So I would say probably that journey has influenced my writing quite a bit, in terms of content and how I approach it and also, you find, like therapy itself, it gives you a different understanding of people and how they work and in that, then translate into your characters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, I think it.
Speaker 2:It really feeds into how I think about the psychology of my characters and how I work with scripts as well so if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 2:oh, spend less money on shoes probably that it reminds me of the shoe thing when I um, when I was training to be a solicitor, my training contract I moved from. Initially I wanted to work in I wanted to specialize in media. Then I decided I wanted to specialize in media. Then I decided I wanted to specialize in crime. So I moved to a high street um law firm and my salary just dropped.
Speaker 2:It was so low and I couldn't like basically there was no buying shoes all the time. And the minute I qualified and I moved firms and I got paid it's like every month I was buying shoes and I remember my friend calling me one Friday afternoon because I used to work in Soho month I was buying shoes and I remember my friend calling me one Friday afternoon because I used to work in Soho and she called me up and she said where are you?
Speaker 2:no, she goes actually, don't, don't even answer are you buying shoes? I'm just buying shoes. So what is is publishing, and what's your writing journey, your publishing journey, your TV journey, all of it? What has it taught you about yourself?
Speaker 1:I think it's taught me to you know that you have to roll with the punches and that you don't always know how things are going to work out, and that you have to, uh, hopefully, a really good story makes its way onto the page or onto the screen, and you just have to do the very best you can, um, and not get too bitter and gnarly when, uh, the way you hoped and it's actually.
Speaker 2:I've got an extra question for you. Do you have different expectations of success? Does success mean something different for the TV stuff in comparison to your own personal writing success, or are they similar?
Speaker 1:It's an interesting question. I guess with the novels they're more personal. You know I've done a lot of myself to those characters. That in any of my novels the lead characters probably had a lot of me in it, whereas with TV you're probably more trying to facilitate other people's creativity. You bring a lot of creativity to it but it's not kind of like it hasn't got your, it's not tattooed on your heart in quite the same way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, if a show doesn't say it doesn't, it's not as successful as you'd like it to be. Are you able to distance yourself from that?
Speaker 1:oh, that's always gutting, when that happens no because you work so long on it and hard on it, yeah, and you really want people to resonate with it and for it to be kind of culturally meaningful. So, um, yeah, no, I wouldn't say that I think, yeah, you, you always want, you always want people to take a show that you've made to their heart yeah, you know it has streaming.
Speaker 2:So you know of Netflix and Paramount and all those sort of um places now where we watch um TV. What shows has that changed? The way in which you, I don't know, suppose the way in which you pitch shows now in, or the way you think about developing a show, does that affect? Change things?
Speaker 1:um, I think it has changed, yeah, in the last few years in tv quite a lot, in that you used to maybe start with like a flimsy little two-page pitch for a show and you take that into a buyer and then hopefully they commission a script, whereas now it's much more common in the uk that you will actually commission a script up top and then sell it in a more competitive scenario. Ideally you have more than one person who wants to buy it, but that you take it to a number of buyers at the same time, whereas previously you might just have like itv as your target and take them your piddly little two pages and hope that they go on the journey with you from the very beginning does that affect your the way in which you write your books, because you know when did you write?
Speaker 2:no, is it, was it just the same?
Speaker 1:uh, no books really. You're just kind of, you know, at the end of writing a book you're hoping that it gets optioned or you're uh yeah.
Speaker 2:So in terms of that creative process, probably not so different okay so finally, kate Ruby, I just have to ask you, where can listeners of the conversation podcast, if they can, where can they find you online just to say hello?
Speaker 1:they can find me on x, although I must admit I'm really really bad at looking at it. Um, probably the best place to find me is on instagram.
Speaker 2:I'm kate ruby books on instagram okay, and that just leaves me to say kate ruby, thank you so much for being part of the conversation. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow, and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadimaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
