Rhiannon Barnsley: Legal Minds and Creative Quests

What happens when a lawyer shifts gears to become an author, facing the intimidating world of publishing head-on? Together with Rhiannon Barnsley, a fellow lawyer-turned-author, we unpack the myriad challenges and rewards of this journey. Our candid conversation touches on everything from the balance of professional life and personal interests to the evolving role of AI in storytelling. We shine a light on the emotional rollercoaster of submitting work to editors, which can sometimes feel even more daunting than facing rejections from agents.

From the suspenseful world of Rhiannon's novel "The Clique" set in a London law firm, to the broader discussion on networking and personal growth, this episode promises insights and inspiration for anyone pursuing a passion amidst life's challenges.

The Clique
There’s only one way to join their society. If someone leaves, or dies…

High-flying lawyer Sara O’Neil had it all; the career, the money, the prestige.

And then she jumped to her death.

Cassandra Harlow never expected to see her friend fall from their office rooftop. Someone knows what really happened. But the only people who might know the truth are a secret women-only society, Inside, whose promise is to fast-track your career.

But if Sara was part of it and they helped facilitate her rise to the top, could they also be the reason she came crashing down to earth?

Follow Rhiannon Barnsley

Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Writing and Publishing Journeys
• 12:16 Impacts of Social Media on Reading
• 20:12 Utilizing AI in Writing Process
• 29:23 Navigating Publishing Rejections and Acceptances
• 35:22 Submission Process and Book Publishing
• 43:44 Balancing Writing and Publishing Demands
• 50:06 Thriving in London's Legal Industry
• 59:03 Navigating Personal Growth Through Challenges

Transcript

Rhiannon Barnsley: 0:00

I think submitting to editors for me anyway, was far scarier and harder than the rejection from agents. Because I think and I heard someone say it's like the last step right, like when you're looking to get an agent, you know that there's still a while to get to publication, like you need to get the agent and then you know you need to edit it together and you need to send it out, whereas when it's gone off to editors, you, if they say yes, that's it.

Nadine Matheson: 0:27

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. My week was good. Last week was cold, it was very cold. If you follow me on social media, especially Instagram, then you would have seen my Insta stories of me walking outside in the freezing cold minus two, minus two. It's so cold, it's bitter, it's so bitter and you have to be so careful because there's black ice everywhere.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01

But I do my morning walk and the reason why I do it is because I spend the vast majority of my time sitting at my desk. When I was a lawyer, when I was practicing full-time as a lawyer, I am pretty sure that I was putting in at least a minimum of 15,000 steps a day easily, and I wish I'd been monitoring it back then. I really wish, because then I wouldn't feel so guilty when I look at my Apple Watch and see sometimes that all I've managed to do is 6,000 steps for the day. So that's the reason why I get up and walk. I thought if I get up and walk, get it done early, then I'm motivated and set for the day. But other than that, you know, walking outside in the freezing cold with my cup of tea. I had a good week Last week.

Nadine Matheson: 1:50

I was plotting. It sounds so ominous, doesn't it Plotting? But I was plotting my stories. As you know, I am very much a planner and there are a lot of different writing projects that I want to take on and actually finish this year. So so I decided that the first working week of January would be my week where I would plot my stories. But it wasn't easy, that first day, back at my desk. It wasn't easy because at one point I looked at the screen and I looked at my notebook and I said to myself I have no idea what words are like. I have no idea how to plot. What is the three act structure like? What are words, what are characters like? My brain was blank, but then I got it together. I got it together and I got it done. But whilst I was plotting or well, struggling to plot I did think oh, if you're a pantser, you don't have to deal with this. You just have to sit at your desk and just write and just see where the story takes you. Unfortunately, that is not me. I like to have a plan. Anyway, let's get on with the show.

Nadine Matheson: 2:57

This week I'm in conversation with author and also lawyer, rhiannon Barnsley, and I enjoyed this conversation for so many reasons, but one of the reasons was I really feel that there are really good tips for writers, not just practical writing tips, but also a bit of a reality check of what happens once you sign with an agent and your book goes out on submission and dealing with rejection. So take on board those tips when you hear them. But also in our conversation, rhiannon Barnsley and I talk about the personal connections that we have with our books, the impact of AI on publishing and the lack of transparency and how we steal time as writers. Now, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation.

Nadine Matheson: 3:50

Rhiannon Barnsley, welcome to the conversation. Thank you very much. Right, my first question for you, because I know that you are a lawyer like myself. I always say so. I was talking about the baby lawyers earlier. I always say to the baby lawyers, like when I, when I finish teaching at the end of the course, I always say to them make sure you have something other than this job, because this job will consume you like.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 4:17

I give them my little.

Nadine Matheson: 4:19

That's like my little therapy session at the end of our three-day course. You need just I don't care what it is, whether it's you do pottery, whether you write or you go mountain climbing, I don't care. But just have something else other than this, because you don't want this to be 24 7 like your entire life. So when did you know that writing was going to be your other thing, in addition to your career? Oh, my voice went oh gosh.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 4:43

Well, I think, like everyone, I think that ends up writing one. I loved reading as a kid. Like you know, a lot of books did all those like library challenges that you would get. But then as I got older I think, especially doing a law degree, you have to read so many textbooks and cases and really boring things that I just stopped reading. And then I sort of rediscovered it and I got back into reading.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 5:04

But it was actually sort of the lockdowns and the pandemic, and I remember we had the lockdown, sort of like in the March of 2020, and we came out of it in the summer and I'm thinking, oh, that would have been a great time to write a book, because I remember work was really quiet, because I used to work like crazy hours till, like you know, late into the night, and then I thought, oh, what a shame. And then obviously we had another lockdown that happened obviously, which you know was not a great thing. But then I thought, you know what? No, I'm going to do it this time. I'm going to set myself some goals and I'm going to write. So I did a writing course by Faber Academy, which is like a nine month writing course, and I was like I'm going to really commit to this and it was all online so you could kind of manage it at your own pace.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 5:43

Yeah, and I think when I finished that I had the first draft of my first book and that was kind of how I got into it and I was like wow, I loved this and then I was really worried about once everything returned to normality and people went back to the office if I'd be able to keep doing it and thankfully I have managed to keep writing it. Not always the easiest sometimes when you're working late, but I love it so much that it's not even like a chore to fit in. It's not like, oh, I need to find time to do that. It's like, oh no, I want to do this because this makes me happy and this makes me. You know, it's almost like a type of therapy for me to do the right thing.

Nadine Matheson: 6:14

Did you know you had it in you like that writing? I don't know what to call it a writing gene I can't think of the word, but it's like did you know you had that in you.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 6:27

I don't know really like I've obviously always loved reading I mean, I don't know if you can be a good good at reading, I don't know um but I've always enjoyed writing but I've never really done creative writing like maybe like a GCSE or something, when you know you're told to write a story and it's part of your coursework.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 6:44

But until I really started doing it, I don't think I really realized. It was only once I started really getting into it, because on the course we got feedback from people and people were like oh, this is, you know, this is decent.

Nadine Matheson: 6:55

I said oh, maybe I can do this and that really helped actually to show me that you know, maybe I can do this and maybe people will like it yeah, it just goes to show because talking about this yesterday that when you've had another career or you're in another career and you do something new, doesn't matter how experienced you are in that other thing. When you're doing that something new and even though you feel like it's such a part of you, that new thing, I think, especially when it's something creative there's so much doubt that comes with that, because that creative thing is about you.

Nadine Matheson: 7:25

It's not just yeah it's not just a case that you're working on.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 7:28

It's you yeah, it's so personal, isn't it compared to I feel like at work? I mean, if I get like a bad comment at work, obviously that affects me, but not in the same way because I think there's that distance. But when it's something you've created, especially with writing, you've essentially created it out of, you know, a Microsoft Word document and a laptop, and then everything else has just come in, it just feels like extra you know vulnerable, doesn't it?

Nadine Matheson: 7:52

yeah, no, it does. I'll just. I'll just remember, like back at work years ago, we had this case. You know you, you advise, you advise the client from the very beginning how it's going to go. This is the results. If it, if you don't listen to me, this is what's going to happen, like sign my endorsement, because I don't want you coming back to me saying I didn't advise, you do all of that and I had this client come to me at the end of it actually wasn't, he didn't come to me at the end of it. He came to me like six months later, not listening to what I told him and basically he's like I'm gonna put a complaint in, I'm not happy and because you kind of have, I know, but I think because you, you have these barriers in place in your profession, you can't. I was literally like mate, go and do what you want, because I advised you, you signed the endorsement, I did my job, so go yeah, that's what you want to do and I have backup from my boss.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 8:46

Yeah, exactly Exactly.

Nadine Matheson: 8:48

If that's what you want to do like, you go for it. So there's this complete separation there, like I'm not taking this on personally, but with your book, no that's me?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 9:00

Yeah, it is, isn't it? Yeah, and especially like with my first book, because it's written about my career, it feels extra personal because I'm like people do ask me like is the character, is she based on you, is it you? And I'm like, no, it's not. But there is that part of oh, actually there is that personal connection to it did you know you're gonna write about a law firm?

Nadine Matheson: 9:18

because I I conscious I say consciously make made a determined effort, or an effort, a decision in the beginning, that when I was doing the course that I was not going to write basically like a legal thriller, I was like no, I'm not, Because that's what's expected of me, because I'm a lawyer regardless of whatever area of law I worked in and I was like I'm not giving that to the people, I'm going to do something else.

Nadine Matheson: 9:41

So I decided to write police procedurals because I just didn't want. It felt like an extra pressure, in a sense yeah, yeah, I think.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 9:52

Well, so my debut was actually the second book I ever wrote. My first one was more sort of domestic psych expense, and then so the clique. I think that I can tell you exactly how it came about. I was on Twitter looking and I follow a lot of authors and one of them, um, had. There was just a big press release about a book that was coming out and it was called um Falling by TJ Newman, and I remember saying it's a lot about the plane falling and I remember being like, oh, it's based on the fact she was a flight attendant for so many years.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 10:20

And I was like, wow, I wish I had a cool job that I could write about. And then I was like, oh, wait, like Suits exists, that's like a what nine season tv show about corporate lawyers, obviously in America, and we didn't you know. I'm not sure how realistic a lot of it is, but I was like, oh, okay, maybe people do care. And then when I started writing it, I was like this is easy, I don't need to do any research because it's it's basically my day-to-day life. So, but that I'm not going to repeat doing that. It was just. I think it was quite a nice book for me to write because I didn't have to do the research or the hard stuff like that or google things to find out that I could really focus on the writing, which I think helped being so early on in my career yeah, I think let's always say that's.

Nadine Matheson: 11:04

It's one of the bonuses of writing. Your maybe like your first two books, because a lot of people their first book, it never gets published.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 11:12

It's either still sitting in the drawer.

Nadine Matheson: 11:14

It's still sitting on their desktop, but it's normally that second book is the one that gets published. But you always write, I'll say, those first two books. You write it in a, in a kind of vacuum. You know there's no one ask unless you're doing a course, but there's no one asking for it. You haven't got an agent, you haven't got an editor, it's just you. So there's no pressure.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 11:33

So there's, if there's comfort in that yeah, I think so and I think, having the comfort of you know, I set it in London, which is where I live, so again, I didn't need to research places. I use places that I know well, having the backdrop as like my day job, all I really needed to focus on was the storyline and the characters, really, but rather than everything at once. And then I feel like it means for my future books, when I do then focus on everything, it just becomes a bit more natural and a bit easier.

Nadine Matheson: 12:04

That's what I think, anyway, you've done. You've done the hard, the hard job, you've done the practice run. It's like right now, I know, I know how to do this and what needs to be done, yeah, what? What surprised you the most, though? Because I've always liked to know that this question but what surprised you the most about the industry once you were in it?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 12:29

oh, what surprised me the most about the industry.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 12:31

I mean I think how like wide spanning it is, which is going to sound really weird, but like, obviously this might be because I just follow loads of authors and writers, but I feel like books are everywhere like TikTok. So I've really I've follow loads of authors and writers, but I feel like books are everywhere like TikTok. So I've really I've recently gotten into TikTok and BookTok and it is amazing how many people just love books. And I put a video up the other day because there are people reading 25 books a month, every single month, and I'm just like that is incredible that people are doing that. I feel like, know I?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 13:04

A few years ago, I feel like if I ask people, I know, oh, do you read? They'd be like, no, not really. Whereas now I feel like reading's cool again and everyone wants to do it and they want to talk about their favorite books. And then you see all these books being adapted for like film and tv and you know, every time I want to watch that series, I'm like, oh wait, that's based, that's based off a book, you know. Or that film is great, oh yeah, that's also based off a book. So it's just, I think, the impact that books have on everything, and I really like it when you, you know, you see, like in the bookseller, an article about a book that's, you know, been released, and then you find out in a few years, oh, now it's a TV show, now it's a massive Hollywood blockbuster.

Nadine Matheson: 13:41

I think that's the good thing about social media, you know, for all its moments when you just wanted to just disappear because it's like it's just gone off on some crazy tangent, but in exposing you to not even necessarily new things but showing you the wider world of things that you already know, like books, they said. We, most of us, you know, we've read, because sometimes you were forced to read because of school. But then that's when, I think, because when you're forced to read in school and you're only you know, you just read the books that are on the curriculum and, yeah, doesn't feed everyone's taste and interest. So I think that's when maybe people's desire for reading can get a bit stilted, because you're like, you know Jane Eyre in school and the bell jar and I didn't want to read that yeah, yeah, it's always the same types of books, isn't it?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 14:31

it's always the classics, isn't it that people end up reading which isn't everyone's taste like? If I'm honest, I've not read a type of book like that since I was at school, because it's, you know, I like the sort of commercially thrillers. Those are the. Those are the books I gravitate towards, whereas you don't, you know, you don't get taught any of those in school no, you don't.

Nadine Matheson: 14:49

they should do that, you know, because they don't. I guarantee if I went to my goddaughter, who's now 15, and I looked at the list of books she has to read for English class, it wouldn't be anything new. I've guaranteed she probably still has the Lost Boys, lord of the Flies. I meant to say Lord of the Flies. I'm sure they wouldn't mind watching the Lost Boys. Get myself together. I'm pretty sure Lord of the Flies is still on there. I'm going to get myself together, but I'm pretty sure Lord of the Flies is still on there. I did Lord of the Flies, yeah, I did. Lord of the Flies, like 1984, is probably still on there.

Nadine Matheson: 15:36

Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think in terms of Shakespeare. What did I do? I did Merchant of Venice.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 15:43

I think my brother did I do about nothing.

Nadine Matheson: 15:44

I think yeah, yeah, I wanted that and, but in terms, I think that's yeah, I think that's what English classes need to do yeah, I don't think they changed the curriculum.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 15:54

I bet you, if I went back to my school, they'd be like exactly the same as they did when I was there, and probably the same, for you know, generations and generations before that. And there's so many good books that have come out in that time, like obviously, like there's a reason. There's classics for a reason, right, but also there's so many amazing modern books that just don't even get a look in exactly.

Nadine Matheson: 16:15

I was just thought Wuthering Heights guaranteed they're still reading, there's not anything wrong with it. But I just feel that if you want to keep people engaged, I say I say people, young kids, engage and have that enthusiasm for reading, carry on throughout their lives, open up their world. Which is why, going back to my original point, social media in that sense, the book talks and books of grams and whatever like they, are a good thing yeah, they're great, I love them.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 16:45

I love book talk it's. It's my current, my current daily obsession just scrolling scrolling.

Nadine Matheson: 16:51

No, I had. I had to install the freedom app on my phone. Not that not I'm not being sponsored by freedom app, but feel free if they want to. But I had to install the freedom app on my phone because I'm like, I need a, I need a cutoff point.

Nadine Matheson: 17:05

I need to and I have it on my, on my desktop as well, for when I'm working. But just to cut off all social media at a set time and I have it reoccurring. So I I can't access any social media after 10, 30 and it's been a lifesaver because I'm on tiktok. Yeah, oh yeah, a ridiculous rabbit hole. That's got nothing to do with the original reason why I went on there in the first place.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 17:30

The thing is, sometimes you start scrolling and it's just five minutes and then it's an hour and I literally haven't moved. I'm in the exact same position and I'm like what have I done? What have I been doing for the last hour? Oh, I've literally just been on TikTok, but it feels like two minutes has passed my dad knows.

Nadine Matheson: 17:46

If I call him, I'm like, oh, where's mum? And he'll say she's down the rabbit hole and what that means is we're not on TikTok, she's on reels. So she's found. Whatever she's on, she's gone.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 17:59

Yeah there's YouTube as well, isn't? Yeah, I think YouTube's the worst of rabbit holes, because then you end up watching obscure adverts from the 90s or something really random. You're like how did I get here?

Nadine Matheson: 18:13

You know, what I've noticed about YouTube Is that, because I've been watching a lot of when I'm working, I always have something on in the background and for some reason it's been like because I like longform conversations and stuff like that something just keep going whilst I'm working. So I've had those on in the background on my like on my second monitor. And then what I've noticed is the number of, because there's always, unless you're paying for premium, you're just constantly it's getting interrupted for an advert. But what I noticed recently was the number of adverts to do with publishing your book.

Nadine Matheson: 18:47

So for self, either yourself publishing or doing an audio book but the number yeah, but the number of them that will say you literally like you can publish your book, have a, write your book and publish your book in 36 hours. I'm like what? Like I stopped what I'm doing. Turn to the left. I'm like what are you talking about? They're like. And then they had the caveat with AI and I'm like how are you? Yeah, I take great offense. I'm like how how are you? It was 36 hours no, I can't.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 19:23

I actually can't even like mentally comprehend 36 hours. No, you can't.

Nadine Matheson: 19:31

You can't write a chapter if you're lucky, you might write a chapter. Do you think about that?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 19:36

do you?

Nadine Matheson: 19:37

think about how much ai has has an impact on not only how books are necessarily promoted and in terms of even like doing translations, because they were talking about in the I think it was in the bookseller about some publishers using AI to do their to translate their books. But do you think about how much AI is spoken about in publishing, in terms of writing?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 20:06

AI is spoken about in publishing in terms of writing.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 20:12

Well, I mean, I don't think it's super transparent how much it is used and I think that's possibly because they know there is a bit of a backlash against it, because obviously, with AI, you know things like chat, gpt and things like that you know people are worried that they'll be used to write books and write novels and obviously, you know, I always think it's never going to be quite the same as when a human has written a book and, you know, come up with all the scenarios and, you know, put real emotion to characters that might be based on, you know, their own feelings or their own experiences.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 20:37

But, yeah, I think it's probably used, definitely, but I don't really think it's clear to what extent it's being used or how it's being used. I mean, I mean I don't think there's any publisher saying, oh well, any of the main publishers say, oh, we're going to get books written with AI. But I have heard of AI being used to create covers, for example, and like AI art used especially in like translated editions. I don't know if it's happened here, but I have heard that that's starting to happen.

Nadine Matheson: 21:06

I see a lot on um. I say on on threads because I'm not on Twitter anymore. So I see on threads from people talking about how AI is being used in books and there's always back clashing like don't. But the thing is they'll say don't buy this book because it's got an AI cover. And sometimes I'm like I don't know how, you even know, like some of them, some of them to me don't look they don't look obvious at all.

Nadine Matheson: 21:28

So I don't know how you know, unless it's one that does look really bad. But then sometimes when you read the comments, I think it just goes back to social media in the whole. But when you're reading the comments and there's going to be the half written firmly, like put a pitchfork in the ground no, we're not against AI. Like go away, we're not going to buy your book, we don't want to know you. Then it's the other half is like well, I don't see nothing wrong with using it for um, a cover or to help me write my book. And you're like I don't think you should be saying that here, like just keep that for yourself.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 22:02

I have heard of authors who have said they use like ai, like chat, gpt to like write outlines and things like that and they put content into it and they use that to like generate like chapter plans or outlines or like plot twists and things like that. Really, yeah, I've only seen people say I know when I like personally know, but you know, on like fred's or twitter, yeah, you know when you just see like a, a tweet that just comes up, maybe, and I have heard of people using it for that and I think some writers are thinking it's a helpful tool for planning etc. But then obviously everything you put in, I think gets. They remember it, don't they? And they use that to train themselves. So there is a bit, there is a bit of a risk, I think, with that yeah, I've heard someone using it to.

Nadine Matheson: 22:47

I mean, I don't know why they just couldn't use street view, but they've used it as a as a as a AI version of street view, so to describe a place they haven't been. So then they can. Then they say get an idea of what this place is like it was in another country, for example and then they use it in their text and I'm like, can't you just spend and do what I do, Like go and street view for an hour and try and zoom in and zoom out?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 23:16

I think you ended up somewhere like way further than when you were supposed to be, but you're like, oh, that's a nice coffee shop over there.

Nadine Matheson: 23:24

I'll have to go when I visit San Francisco one time. I just find, I think, because you know, if you're constantly in front of your computer, like I am, and you got well, because I can't work in silence, I've always got other things going on and you, just you know yeah, I, yeah, I can't do it. So you pick up on things and you're just like what? Are you a planner then, or you a pantser? Yeah.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 23:52

I'm definitely a planner. Um, I think sometimes you say you're a planner, people think you plan out like absolutely everything that ever happens and nothing like organically happens. But I would say I sort of have like a loose outline of what I'm going to write in each chapter, but then I do change it as I go along because I think of new ideas or I'm like, oh actually, no, that's terrible, why, why did I want that to happen? So I definitely plan things out, but I think partly that's because I don't have loads of time to write.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 24:19

When I do come to write, it really helps to be like right, you need to write this and it's about this, even if it's like two bullet points, and that helps me go, whereas I find I think one of the books someone actually my debut book I got stuck in the middle because I hadn't planned out the middle. And I remember I was stuck there for ages because I don't know what to write about, I don't know what happens, and so I think since then I've learned no, I need to plan especially the middle, especially. I don't care so much if I don't know what's going to happen at the end, because I'll discover that, but I need to plan the middle, or it's just you just get stuck.

Nadine Matheson: 24:51

I find, um, not that, I find I did a crime writer special, a live special of the podcast two weeks ago, and Eamon Alongay so it was me, eamon Alongay, dorothy Coombson and Leigh Adenle, and obviously me and Eamon are the two lawyers on there, and it turned out the two lawyers are the planners. But because I'm not practicing anymore so I have more time, but Eamon still practices. You know, he's working full time and he was the same way you're saying because of the time constraints. That's the reason why he plans. Yeah, to the extent. I don't know I can't remember if he or we were talking about John Grisham with the yellow, different multi-colour tags, but I don't, I don't go. Yeah, I don't go that far, but I have I'm, I have the plan, but again, like you're saying, I don't, this is, I call it a safety net, so it doesn't mean I look at it.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 25:44

yeah, I don't stick rigidly to everything in the plan, because you said, things develop organically and then you go off on different subplots, come out of nowhere and you're just like, okay, I'll just have to amend my plan a bit, but at least it's somewhere to go to if I do go off way off the road yeah, I think if anyone wants to write and they're worried about time as a factor because obviously you know like when people sit out writing, most people you know have like their day job and they might have children or you know other commitments I do think planning is one way to really, if you know you're going to get 30 minutes a day and that's it, to know what you're going to do in that 30 minutes, rather than having to spend most of that time thinking, oh, what should I write about?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 26:22

What's going to happen next? If you just got a plan and think, right, I need to write a scene where these two characters have a conversation and finds out this big secret, I just think it's a lot quicker because you you skip all that thinking time and you just go into the creative time yeah, and I've always said um, sometimes you know, irrespective of what your job is, you have to steal time from wherever you find it and you use that stolen time to write, and I don't mean still time in in the sense of oh, you know, I've got my lunch hour.

Nadine Matheson: 26:52

It could be, I don't know. You're sitting there waiting for someone to pick up the phone, you know, or you're waiting for a zoom to start and you have an empty 15 minutes. You can steal that time even if you just write two sentences and that, or you just come up with an idea for your character. Then that you've stolen the time and you've used that and takes you one step forward to your book?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 27:13

yeah, well, wasn't it? Um, wasn't it abigail dean who, because she was also a lawyer, she wrote lots of girl a on, like the notes up on her phone when she was commuting, like, and obviously that is such a big success and it's just like you know. So even if you're stuck on the tube just typing out, yeah, you know, adds up. You know, even if you're only doing like 500 a day, yeah, do that like five days a week and suddenly you're like, hang on, that's like 10 000 words a month exactly those are your stolen moments of time.

Nadine Matheson: 27:43

I was always to say you know, for me being um, let's say, being a trial lawyer, so you're in court, I'm in court all the time, but I think I could have a case get called, say it's going to be listed at 10 o'clock. It's never, it's not coming on at 10. There's been times when they said it's coming on at 10 and I haven't been called in to court till half past three in the afternoon. There's only so much prep time I can do. I've done all my prep. I've spoken to whoever was around. There's no one else to talk to, and it's like I've had to use. You know I can't take any more instructions from my client. It's just I'm done. And in those moments I've had I said, okay, I can steal this time that I'm writing down waiting to write probably quite nice as well, because then you can distract yourself and just get immersed into something else.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 28:26

I just find that helps calm me down, like writing or reading. If I'm really stressed about something that's about to happen maybe I'm doing a big presentation or I don't know if you're looking at an interview, or something like that. If I read or write, that puts me in such a much better mindset than if I just, like you know, try and prep and try and go over my notes like 500 million times right yeah you know the very last second it doesn't help.

Nadine Matheson: 28:48

So when you, when you finish the course, what was your intention? Because I remember when I finished my course, I was I just need to get the course done, get this book done, and I'll just carry on the rest of my life. I'm like, whatever happens after that with the book, like it, I'll say, if I get an agent, good, if I don't, then whatever, I can self-publish. So those were my options. I wasn't. I wasn't like like I'm trying to think of the right way to say it. I wasn't so firmly attached to my book and the outcome, if that makes sense, I was just, yeah, free with it, yeah. So when you'd finished, what was you looking for? What was you hoping for?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 29:27

I think I was very set on I want to get this published. Um, so basically as soon as I finished um, because I think I'd pretty much done the first draft by the time I finished, and then I did a bit of work on editing it and then I was like I'm gonna try and get an agent, um, pretty much once that was done and ready, I was like I'm gonna get an agent now, and that was what I did. Um, I just threw everything into querying and all the fun and games that comes with that. Um, I don't know, I just always had my eyes on no, I want it published, I want it to be, you know, a book that people can buy and people can read. Um, I think I just I just love books and bookshops and buying books. I want my book to be one of those.

Nadine Matheson: 30:06

Um, yeah, so yeah, straight, straight into queer ink and how did you find the process and how easy does it be? Because everyone's got so. Especially on this podcast you hear everyone's got so many different experiences of getting an agent. Some of they've met their, literally they've met their agent at a festival and they've pitched and they're like really the rest of it yes, some have done, they've done it through competition, or they literally have been.

Nadine Matheson: 30:34

There's so many different, or enough others have been approached by publishers first, and then they've had to do it the other way around.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 30:40

Yes, yes, yeah, yes, oh, gosh, well, it was. I mean, it's a hard process, but the way I actually end up getting mine was um Vaber Academy does, if you do a longer course, um, so the writing a novel one, which is one that I did, I think is nine months. So anyone that does one of their longer courses because they do like six weeks ones they do a sort of um, I can't wait, they call it um, I'm gonna say portfolio. They do like a, a publication at the end of it and you're, if you've done those longer courses, you're allowed to submit like a synopsis and like the first, I think it was like 2000, 2005 words, and it got sent out to agents with like your contact details and if agents liked it, they could obviously email you and ask for your full manuscript. And that's what's happened to me and that's how I then got my agent. So so I think before that happened, I did have to go through the normal queering process and I did.

Nadine Matheson: 31:31

I didn't get much success that way we always talk about rejection. That sounds so deep. The one point we always talk about rejection. That sounds so deep, the way I'm putting it. We always talk about rejection on this Because it just comes up. It's just like part and parcel.

Nadine Matheson: 31:45

Yeah, and when you're applying to be a solicitor in the United Kingdom, I should clarify, obviously well, depending on when you did it, like the process of when I did it you have to apply for training contracts and then you know, like the process that when I did it, you have to apply for training contracts and then you know you go through yeah, you go through that and the training contract process. So it's just very, very competitive, like really competitive. Yes, and there's lots of yeah, there's some people they submit so many applications, get so many rejections before they finally get their training contract. So I don't know what your experience was like getting your training contract and whether dealing with rejection or whether any of that or any of that process prepared you for the submission to agents and then, following on from that, the submission to editors so when I applied to be a solicitor, yeah, it was very much like you have to apply for training contracts and you said you send so many applications when you're doing it and each one wants something different.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 32:48

Tell me why you like this firm. What is about us that you like? Why would you be good here? And then, if you're lucky enough, you might get through to an interview and then maybe another interview, um, so there was a lot of rejection when I was applying to be a lawyer. Obviously, um was very lucky that I got my offer when I was applying to be a lawyer. Obviously I'm was very lucky that I got my offer when I was in my second year of university. So luckily I had that secured.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 33:07

But you know, I know a lot of people. You know who I did my course with that. You know it took three or four years to get that and that's not uncommon for people who want to train to be solicitors to either have to spend quite a few years getting that place or to do a different career and then change their career because it's a really competitive industry. But in terms of how it prepared me for writing, I think it's kind of like what we said at the beginning, there is a certain vulnerability when it's your writing. That isn't the same as your work life. So when I was applying to be a lawyer, I mean that was my whole life at that point. But again, because you know that the you know who you're up against. You're up against your classmates and you know such intelligent, bright, amazing people that you can kind of almost be like oh it's not, it's not about me, it's not personal, it's a numbers game. But I feel like when it's your manuscript that you wrote, it's so hard to be like oh well, there's just so many books out there which is true you just think, oh, it's me, it's my book, I'm not good enough. I think it's so much easier to feel like that.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 34:06

I think submitting to editors for me anyway, was far scarier and harder than the rejection from agents, because I think and I heard someone say so it's like the last step right, like when you're looking to get an agent, you know that there's still a while to get to publication, like you need to get the agent and then you know you need to edit it together and you need to send it out, whereas when it's gone off to editors, you know if they say yes, that's it, especially when it gets close, because I think some people think you just send the book off to editors and they go yep, I'll have that one.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 34:39

But actually it goes through so many stages, like it goes to first reads and then second reads and then it might go to a meeting and it goes to an acquisition meeting and if at any point someone says no, that means your books are no. And you know, sometimes it gets all the way to those big acquisition meetings and it just doesn't go the right way and I think that's really heartbreaking because you know how close you might have been to a yes.

Nadine Matheson: 35:03

Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. I know a few authors who they and it's not, you know, it's not their first book. This might be their third, fourth and fifth book and either they're out of contract, so they've gone. You know they're going through to new yeah, they're trying to find new publishers and they've. The agents have sent their books out and they've got through to acquisitions and it's like the acquisition stage. They've said someone, someone in the room, has said no, yeah, and at that point that's it. And either you go back and start again yeah, I think it's horrible.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 35:50

It's like doing a relay race. Yeah, you do a relay, you get three quarters of the way there and then someone drops the baton and then it's like, oh, now we're going to lose, yeah.

Nadine Matheson: 35:59

And drops the baton, and then it's like, oh yeah, now we're gonna lose and that's yeah. And then you're like what, what can you do? You're like I did everything, like I got you in a place where you were going to get the gold medal. Now you're not getting anything. Now we're disqualified.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 36:07

Yeah, yeah, I do think that is the hardest, because my first book didn't sell on submission and it did go to acquisitions twice and that was the most heartbreaking thing I think I had, because I was like oh, so close both times and obviously I then wrote my second book, which is the one that got published.

Nadine Matheson: 36:25

But the fact to get so close, it's just really difficult it is, and I and this is a thing that's not really unless you listen to podcasts like this or you happen to go to a talk, an author talk and they're asked about you, know their journey then you might find out about this part of it, that whole what happens between submission to an editor and then you getting your contract and signing. You're not really aware of that outside of, I say, these mediums. I can't think of many places. I don't, unless it's changed. I can't remember picking up the Writers and Artists yearbook and finding that section on what happens like, yeah, as part of submission, and also, yeah, there's not much information as to what happens after you sign with an agent.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 37:15

There's always information as to this is what you need to do to submit to an agent, but there's a big gap that's empty and you're just yeah, I mean I definitely feel that and I mean I guess part of it's because it's so everyone's journey is so different, everyone's experience is different, because you have some people that will sign with an agent and then within a month their book's been sent off to editors, whereas I mean, you know, I've heard of other people that they edit with their agent for like one to two years before it gets sent out to editors.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 37:43

And it really depends on you know your agent and you know how, because some are more hands-on editorially where some are a bit more like well, actually the editor is going to want to change things anyway, so let's not get too deep into things. And it also depends on you know your genre, the market there's so many factors as to how they determine where to send a book and like what the right time is, that everyone's journey is different. But you're right, there's not a lot of. If you looked for information because I think I did there isn't much out there and obviously you can ask your agent and you know they'll tell you, like what the process is.

Nadine Matheson: 38:14

But again, it's always going to be slightly different for every single person it's like I and you're right, because I mean when I, when I first went out on submission, my, I said my, my journey, it's so it was so quick. It was like I got, you know, in London you get the Waterloo and City line, which is like, yes, sometimes I think about what's the point of this, of this tube line which is literally two stops, waterloo and Bank, and it goes back. That's it, there's nothing else. Yeah, there's nothing else, and I didn't realise there was going to be a TFL analogy to all this. But that's how I think of my process of getting an agent and then going out on submission. It was literally like getting on the waterloo and city line city line. It was so quick because I said I did, my agent started reading my book manuscript. It was before Christmas and then, I think before Christmas, before the new year had even started, he wanted to see me. I signed up him on end of January because I signed up him on my birthday.

Nadine Matheson: 39:18

I then went out on submission on the 18th yeah, on the 18th of February I went out on submission. Oh wow, that is really yeah. And he'd read the manuscript and same thing. We did like a I say, an agent editorial thing with it and he's like, can you do these edits in? And I can. I'm like if you give me a deadline like I can, I think it might be I would say it's a lawyer thing, give us a deadline and yeah yeah, tell us when you want it.

Nadine Matheson: 39:39

Yeah, tell us when you want it. There won't be no if and about yeah, I can do it. And he gave me a day. He's like, can you do this edits in this, which is like a week, two weeks, and I was like, yeah, I can do that. So I did that and then, no word of a lie. We he sent it out on a Tuesday and Friday. We had the first offer.

Nadine Matheson: 40:01

But then it said everyone's journey and it's and you know, yeah, and when you're just new you think, oh, that happens to everyone, and then. But then you realize that it doesn't happen necessarily happen to everyone. Everyone's journey can be so different and so yeah, so varied.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 40:16

And yeah, exactly, I think if you're on submission, don't read the book seller, you'll see they're like preempted in 24 hours and 48 hour, preempted overnight and like, and then you just feel like if you put, you know it'll have been a week, which is nothing, a week is nothing for submission and you'll be like gosh, why wasn't my book preempted within 48 hours? Like what's, what's going on? Why isn't it already sold in seven territories or something like that. But then you realize that is definitely the exception and you know I don't think it's uncommon for people to be on submission to editors for six, seven, eight, nine months, and that's common.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 40:53

And there are books that get bought after being on submission for a long time, that go on to do really, really well, so it's not even a oh well. If your book doesn't get picked up straight away, that's it. You're doomed. There's loads of bestsellers and brilliant books that you know. Sometimes it just takes a bit longer because editors are so busy that you know they have obviously their current authors to deal with their own timeline, the reading. You know, submissions that come in I think a lot of the time happen outside of work hours or, you know, late at night, or you know. So that's why it takes so long, not because there's anything wrong with people's books what would be your number one?

Nadine Matheson: 41:26

I say number one, I put so much pressure on it. What would be a tip? What would be a tip that you would give to an author who is just going out on submission?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 41:37

write another book, 100 million percent. Write another book because one it distracts you, because you you are going to want to check your email like 200 million times a day and like, wear it out from the amount you like, try and refresh it. You're going to go crazy every time like you don't need my dings. So you need to distract yourself. And I think the best way to do that is write another book, because one of two things is going to happen.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 41:58

If you don't sell which you know it's common, like it does happen you're already working on something else you know and maybe you might love it even more and think actually you know, you are, actually this is the book I want to have as my first book anyway. Or if you do sell if you sell in a two book deal, which is quite common you've already got something else that you're working on that you can tell that potentially interested publisher about, because once you are contracted for a second book, you're going to then have a deadline and if you want longer to write, if you already started writing some of it, I think it alleviates some of that pressure no, you're right, my, when I signed with my agent and I think I'd gone to a talk at the university where I'd done the course and my tutor who happens, we have the same agent now and he was like, congratulations and like, and he, but his first, he said to.

Nadine Matheson: 42:48

He said to me my number one advice to you is start book two now. And I was like, literally I just threw book two out as an idea out when I was having my discussion, having my chat with my agent before I signed with him. It wasn't a firm thing in my head. He just asked me you know what's your second book about? And I was like this but that's as far as I got with it. But he said to me just start. He goes yes, you're out on submission. I remember if I had my deal yet I don't remember I must have had the deal been offered a deal. But he been offered a deal. But it's like just start writing book two now. And I think that's the best advice, this whenever you finish, just have a break, but then start the next one.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 43:25

Yeah, because even if you get a deal like I think people think you get a deal and straight away you and your editor start working on the book, but that's not true like you get your deal and then it's probably going to be quite a few months until you get your first edit letter yeah, obviously, yeah, take the time like obviously, celebrate it like brilliant, have a bit of a break, but then actually start working on your second book.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 43:44

Because what I actually found possibly the hardest thing about getting like a two book deal is, at one point you're working on two books. You're editing your first book that's coming out, but you need to also be writing your second book as well, because otherwise you're going to have no time to get them both, because usually they're within a year of each other right, but you have to finish it a certain amount of time before it comes out in publication, because you're going to go through four or five edit processes proof reading it. You know the designers have got to design the cover, they've got to do like publicity for it. There's so many things that go into a book that if you started writing your second one, you've got such a head start rather than being like oh gosh, I've not ever written anything of my second book, and it's coming out next year yeah, that's something you're not prepared for at all.

Nadine Matheson: 44:29

Um, the fact that there's going to be a point where you're going to be working on two books at the same time, because it's not a um, it's not linear in that sense, it's not a. You finish one, everything is done, and you move on to the next. That's not how it doesn't run like that, like on, like carriages on a train if there are two trains going at the same time. What is it with me?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 44:50

my train analogies today yeah, I feel like one's a high speed train, which is the book that's coming out first, but then you've got the slower train that maybe stops at more stops, but it's still going, yes, alongside it the train analogy makes sense, but no one tells you that.

Nadine Matheson: 45:08

And when you're in it, I remember the same thing. I was, I must have been editing the jigsaw man and I'm writing the binding room and then you know, you get into the. I was in the getting into the flow finally, because I'm doing all this in lockdown and I'm getting into the flow of writing the binding room and then you know, email alert pops up. Oh, here are your edits for the jigsaw man. And then I'm like, okay, now I need to stop the binding room when I'm in mid flow, go back to the jigsaw man, do whatever needs to be done, edits, line edits and then send that off and then go back to the binding room. Then you have to find your flow again. And then you get into it. Oh, email alert number two comes in. Here's your line edits. You're like, oh god, and literally. And I'm like how am I supposed to get this done?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 45:56

but that's how it, that's the process yeah, yeah, I think that's actually, I would say, the hardest thing about transitioning to writing, when you don't have a deal or you don't have an agent and you're doing it, you know, for fun, and you have no pressure. That to then be like, you've got to learn to juggle and pull yourself out of a world you're immersed in, put yourself into another one, and even then, once your book's published, then you've got to add like promoting and like social media and stuff, if you, if you choose to do it on top of that as well. So you know, for example, right now I'm trying to write book three, edit book two, but then I'm still like, oh well, actually my first book, try and promote that one as well. So then you're like a constant cycle, isn't it?

Nadine Matheson: 46:35

That was. That was me this week. I was, I had to write, I have to write a short story, which I'm. I keep banging on about this short story because I'm like this should not be taking this long. But I'm not a natural. I don't think I'm a natural short story teller. Like I have to work, I can do it, but I have to work harder at it. Don't necessarily a bad thing, but I'm doing this short story.

Nadine Matheson: 46:56

And then I've got another manuscript that I've been working on for so long and I promised my agent. I was like you know what, I'm going to get it to you and it's not something that's in contract. So I'm like I had a timeline, I had a plan of how I'm going to do these things. And then also I'm like, okay, I need to do a proposal for some standalones and then there's something else I need to do. So I'm like I have these four things, but I planned out how it's, I'm gonna do it and I'm good with the plan. Rhiannon, did not my edits for Henley book four just suddenly land in my inbox? I think it was Monday, I think, yeah, I think it was Monday. And then it landed and I love my editor. But I looked at this email I was like what all right? I was like, and then I'm thinking, okay, this plan has now gone to pot because now my edits are coming and that's something you're not.

Nadine Matheson: 47:49

I think the only thing I can compare it to is doing trials in court, and then you're doing your trial, you're doing whatever, and then something comes up, some legal argument comes up, and the judge says okay, fine, I need um, you need to make an application, I need a legal argument. I need a skeleton argument from both of you to be my inbox by 10 o'clock tonight.

Nadine Matheson: 48:10

You're like huh, I wasn't planning on writing a legal argument tonight you're telling me and you're telling me this at four o'clock, so now I've got to go home, write a legal argument, make sure it's delivered to you for 10, so we can then argue it in court on Tuesday or the next day.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 48:26

That's the only thing I can compare it to yeah it's yeah because I think you always, when you send anything back to your editor, you're like oh, you know, I reckon it'll take this long for them to come back to me, or sometimes I'll give you a deadline, but okay. But then it never happens like that. And then sometimes, especially with like, when you get to like line edits and copy edits, it's so quick, that's so quick. You send it off. You think, okay, I've got some breathing space. And then you're like wait, what have I already got them back? I don't want them back yet it's a thing.

Nadine Matheson: 48:53

But then you have to say to yourself no, this is what I signed up for, this is what I want. I want to be a published best-selling author, so I am not. It's like I can. I do not have the right to complain. It's like you have to tell yourself these things even though the other side of you is just swearing. It's like what the hell?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 49:13

so this is why I think the planning helps with that.

Nadine Matheson: 49:17

Yeah, no, definitely the plan, and the planning does help. So, even though I said my edits came in and I was like, ah, okay, fine, I can, I can do this, I'm like I have a plan, I just need to now move the plan around. Yeah, so I can, it's not, it's not I. Yeah, I have my initial reaction to it, but it's not so much a feeling of like I can't do this, like where am I going to find the time? So I have something to work with, so I can move it around. Rhiannon, I feel like we need to talk about your book, the Click or the Click, before we move on. So would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about your debut? Oh, how did it feel to have your debut in your hand, when it was finally in your hands?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 49:56

gosh. It just didn't feel real like. Even once I held it in my hand. I was like. I still felt like it was a dream. This is my, that's my name, that is my name on that cover. I wrote this um, yeah, sometimes I forget as well. I'm like oh, yeah, like because it, because it's something I've wanted for so long and it's been. You know, when people say my childhood dream is to be an actor or to be a singer, like mine was to be a writer, and then when it comes true, I don't feel like I really knew how to react because I never really thought it would. So it's what it's a.

Nadine Matheson: 50:27

It is a funny feeling and you know you, you said I wrote this. And I always feel like it's what a child would say I made this, I did this. But that is the set of a time I see, like I'll see a copy of my book. I'm like, oh my god, I wrote this. And you do. To go back to that childlike feeling of this, I made this, like look what I did, and you can't believe you did this. But you did do that thing.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 50:51

Yeah, for sure, for sure so tell us about the clique. Yes, so, as we've already sort of alluded to, it's sort of. It's set in the world of an elite law firm in London and it follows Cassandra who she's a senior associate and she's trying to become a partner which is like the top of the legal profession for solicitors in the UK. And one morning, you know she's doing some conference calls, she's working hard and something happens and it turns out that her colleague, her mentor at the firm has jumped from the roof of the building where they work.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 51:28

And obviously Cassandra is devastated out there. She knows she really looked up to this person and she's confused because this person was a really young partner. She seems to have, you know, made, made her life. You know she's got the career she always wanted, she's really ambitious. And then she starts asking around and she thinks she can't have jumped because people are saying she jumped and then people are saying it's an accident. She doesn't believe any of it. And then she finds out that this mentor called sarah, was part of a clique called inside, which is an exclusive female-owned networking society which is meant to help women rise to the top of their careers. And as Cassandra gets more into the society because a spot opens up on Sarah's death. She starts to realize maybe they had something to do with what happened to her and maybe they're hiding secrets.

Nadine Matheson: 52:14

It sounds so good it's and you know it just brought me. It brought me back, not that this was a secret society, no, it wasn't a secret society sort of thing. But I do remember, like when I first, when I qualified, receiving those invitations to these I'm saying like women only because they weren't just trying to encourage women, you know, in the legal profession, to to rise and getting those, those invitations to these, to these lunches and these evenings, to discuss and network.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 52:45

You just think there are women's only networking clubs that exist in London. Um, I must say I didn't write this about any of them, but, um, yeah, there are clubs that exist like this and obviously it's to help promote, you know, women in the workplace, especially in law, where law is a funny profession in that when you enter the junior level it's actually like 50 50 men and women, but when you get to the top ranks it's very badly disproportionate and, like, you know places where you'd be like 10 percent women or less, you know, and that's not uncommon. So that's why I thought, well, surely plays like this must exist, and I'm sure they do. And you know there's so many networking societies in London and memberships you can, you know, pay membership to that, do networking things and aim to connect people. And I've just put a little sinister spin on it have you had the question?

Nadine Matheson: 53:33

you know other than, is it you, but is it? Is this anyone I know or am I in it?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 53:38

or anyone's like looking at you all the time, all the time I get it all the time. Um, people are just convinced that I've put people in and just change their names. Yeah, everyone that I've ever worked with is like is it this person, is it that person? Who's you you write that about? I'm like, oh no, it's really based on one particular person. It's like an amalgamation of things and of traits and of things I've seen, and you know there is an element of realism too, because some of the things that are in there, I think some people would be like that's really unrealistic, and I'm like, actually it's not as unrealistic as you might think, especially the stuff to do with her working day. That does happen. Like that is realistic.

Nadine Matheson: 54:21

But it's like you know, when we were talking before we started recording and I said to you like the advice I always give to my baby lawyers at the end of the course, which is find something other than this to keep you going and to sustain you, because, especially when you're working in the city actually city legal aid, high street firms, wherever you're it becomes it's all consuming and it's if it could be more than 24 7.

Nadine Matheson: 54:46

It is more than 24 7 and there's so many firms in the city where everything is provided for you, from people coming to give you massages yeah, and they got cubicles for you to go and have a sleep and do your dry cleaning and on site this and on site that, and you are literally, you are living and sleeping in the law firm. So I'll say to them, if you, I'm like I'll stop. I have conversations like what do you do? Do you bake? And that's one saying, yeah, she's like I could and she showed me all the things she'd baked. I was like keep doing that, like just keep doing that, because you need.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 55:17

You need something else, yeah you do, you do and the environment in the clique is of. So I based it on an American law firm which, if anyone in the know knows, american law firms in the UK are particularly known for having super, super long hours and all the stuff that to do with her, like eating dinner at her desk every night that is not made up. That is what happens.

Nadine Matheson: 55:40

I remember when I was I wasn't a trainee, I was a paralegal and I was working I'm not gonna name the firm, but I was working for a firm in the city and, um, I remember I came in, I left let's say I left Tuesday night I think I must have left about 5 36 said goodbye it wasn't the partner, it was one of the assistant associates said goodbye to him and then came back the following morning and he's the first person I see and there's a moment I'm looking at him, I'm thinking are you still wearing the same clothes from yesterday? And I just, I don't know why, it clicked my head, but I'm like no, he's still wearing the same clothes from yesterday. And I must have said something to him. He's like yeah, like you guys, I haven't gone home.

Nadine Matheson: 56:23

He hadn't gone home, and it's those super long hours, yeah, and I remember looking for like paralegal jobs or talking to agencies, and when you were looking at the US firms, they were always the ones who had like paralegal night shift hours because they obviously they got their US counterparts, yeah, in the states, and so your shift would your shift, your day would start at 5 30 and finish, yeah, like at three in the morning, four, and it was always the US firms who had those jobs available and I was like no, yeah, I mean that doesn't surprise me at all.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 57:00

Um, yeah, so when I thought about doing the book, I was like to be honest, even if I didn't add any of the like thriller bits in it. I was like it's a thriller by itself, like something goes on in law firms and like the hours you have to work and actually like the impact it can have on people's, you know sort of well-being, etc. So, yeah, that's kind of what I really wanted to get across with. This book is like, yes, obviously it's really bad, her friends just died and all of this, but also she's working all those horrible hours and you know, that's what leads her to make the choices.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 57:28

And I think when you're like that and for these people career is everything, like you said it's, it can consume you and be your whole life. And that's what drives this whole book is that for these people, career is the only thing they care about and being, as you know, the top person in their career, advancing as far as possible, that's all they care about yeah, it's, it's crazy, it's, oh, it's so great, and you remind me I need to carry on watching industry because I haven't finished it yet.

Nadine Matheson: 57:53

And that's all about.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 57:53

Yes, I know, yeah, that was one of the inspirations for my book, actually because that came out um in like early 2020 and I was like I can write something about investment bankers.

Nadine Matheson: 58:05

I can write something about lawyers well, you can, and I think this is what the thing people finding people always say where do you get inspiration from?

Nadine Matheson: 58:12

it's like literally, just look, I'm not saying this in a um like, oh god, I think my brain's not working today, like I'm not trying to be sarcastic or be packed, I'm not trying to patronize you, but like, look around, you doesn't matter where you work, like you could be managing Tesco's, it doesn't matter. But all of that, you know they will create these. They're all these separate little entities and they have their own inner workings, their own inner world. And you, there'll be villains and anti-villains and heroes in that small little world in which you occupy, and that becomes your inspiration.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 58:45

So that's what I say yeah, definitely, definitely. I think when you're not in an industry, it's interesting to the people that aren't in it. So even if you think, oh, this is, you know, this is really boring, actually people who don't do your job probably think it's really interesting yeah, that is true, definitely true.

Nadine Matheson: 59:03

So, rhiannon, on to your final questions are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 59:10

I think I'm a hybrid. I love to sort of be inside, read my book, but then I also get a lot of energy from being around people, but not for too long. You know it has to be in in the right dosage. So yeah, I'd say I'm saying I'm a hybrid, I'd say I'm a extroverted introvert.

Nadine Matheson: 59:27

I think if I've got yeah, no, you have, you have okay. So what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most? And I feel I always have to caveat this with saying it doesn't have to be a bad challenge or experience, it can be a good one okay, I do have one, but it's a bit sad.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 59:44

So the thing that probably changed my life the most was when my dad died, which was when I was I was 24 and I was in the final seat of my training contract and so it was really difficult because I was working such long hours and I was in the final seat of my training contract and so it was really difficult because obviously I was working such long hours and I was about to qualify and all of these things.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 59:59

But actually it kind of changed my outlook on life, because actually I would say before that I was a very sort of career obsessed person and like my career was absolutely everything to me and obviously it is still very important to me. But that sort of just changed my outlook on life and I was like you know what life is short do the things you want to do. And actually I do wonder if that hadn't happened, if I would have ever written my book. Because you know it's so easy to be like, oh, I'll. You know I'll do it later in a few years when I have time. Yeah, you know so easy to say that, but when you know, you're reminded of, like you know life is short, just do it, don't. Don't wait, because there's never a perfect time to do anything. No, that's my biggest challenge.

Nadine Matheson: 1:00:39

Yeah, I mean, I always say two things that there always seems to be. There's always a some kind, there's always a pivot, basically, yeah, in your life that will force you to reassess things and and it's those moments when there's a pivot where you may finally just take a chance and do the thing that you want to do, or make that change in your life. And then what I always used to say to my brother is that, listen, you'll never have, you'll never be, the right amount of money or the right business space or I don't know the right, like you can keep waiting for these things have that right amount of money in the bank or to find I don't know I said the right office space, and those perfect things may never. They may come or they may come in completely different times. So you just have to just take a chance and do that thing now, and then you'll find that all those other things that you've been waiting for, they suddenly align with you yeah, yeah.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 1:01:32

Everyone has to start somewhere, like even you know the people you like, the authors you look at, which are just like selling so many books.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01:38

At one point, all they had was a blank piece of paper and that was it exactly, and there's so many authors like that when you look at their careers, they they've been a writer for like 20-25 years but they then didn't hit their I say hit the mark until it was like book 16.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01:56

But then all you're then seeing is the the highlights from 16 onwards. You're thinking, oh, it's always been that way, and you're like, no, you haven't gone back. It's been a journey. Yeah, definitely so. So I know, will this question work for you? If you could go back to when you're 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 1:02:16

um, I guess, so we go back to 20.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 1:02:19

Well, let's go back, maybe a bit earlier than that, but I think I would just say yeah, just don't be afraid just don't be afraid of doing things like I think I, very much, was the sort person just wait for the perfect time to do things. And even recently, I think it's still something I'm still learning. For example, for ages I was so scared to join, like TikTok for example, because I was like, oh you know, I'm not very good at filming myself and putting myself out there. And now actually I realize I really like it and it's great and it's such a good community and I really enjoy doing it.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 1:02:47

But for ages I was like, oh, I can't, I can't do that, I can't put my myself out there or even like in Instagram I was I don't want to take a you know a photo with me in it. I'll just take a photo of just the books and I think, just just do it and you know no one, no one's gonna care or judge you if anything. It's the opposite, like you just get such nice feedback and you really get to engage with people and build a community and I think just put yourself out there, because actually people are lovely they are, I mean, even like for me, and it sounds it sounds so ridiculous for me to even say it but I can do my podcast like no issue and that's just me talking.

Nadine Matheson: 1:03:22

I say not me talking, but it's us talking, having a conversation. It's like I talk for a living. Before this, it's like I got paid to talk. I stood in front of juries, I stood in front of the judge. I have, you know, have interviews, advise clients, like I'm paid to talk. But then there was a.

Nadine Matheson: 1:03:36

There was a point where the idea of me filming myself talking about anything and then posting on social media I'm like, well, no, I don't feel like I can't do that. I feel like I'm exposing too much of myself. I'm like, how can I do that? But then, like, you do all these other things, why would putting a 60 second video of yourself fill you with such, I don't know, yeah, dread and and I had to have a word, like I had to have a word with myself, not anything. Come on, seriously, seriously, really, is this gonna be the thing that's gonna drag you down? Like, no, like look what everyone. And, yeah, sometimes you have to say, look what everyone else is doing, like it's, it's nothing. And then you, you do it and you're like, actually, and also don't worry about what people think. I think that's what happens a lot of the time. We worry about what people are going to say.

Nadine Matheson: 1:04:24

Yeah, exactly, I think just put yourself out there yeah, I'm gonna ask you one more question before we leave each other. What has your journey so far not the legal journey, the publishing writing journey what has that journey taught you about yourself?

Rhiannon Barnsley: 1:04:46

what's it taught me about myself? I think I think it's taught me that to deal with rejection and setbacks, because no one I don't think any writer has had a journey where it's like you've got a yes every single step of the way and you've never had any rejection whatsoever. I mean, I'd be shocked if there's a writer that's never had a no from an agent or an editor or you know something like that. And I think I was always quite a despite the sort of going through the law firm rejection journey.

Rhiannon Barnsley: 1:05:13

I took rejection so personally and it would really upset me any type of rejection in any type of you know manner in life. But I think it's helped me be a bit more like, hardened my skin a bit and be like actually, you know, rejection isn't a you're not good enough, it's just a part of a process. You know, because you have rejection, that way you get to as a writer, even when you're published, you're gonna have readers not like your book because you it's impossible to write a book that everybody loves, and you know. I think getting used to that and being like you know it's it's okay. I mean I'd love it if everyone loved everything I ever wrote, but it's okay. It's okay if someone doesn't like my book. Like that's okay, like that's valid, they're fine to have that opinion.

Nadine Matheson: 1:05:51

That's okay, yeah yeah, you just keep it. I always say you just keep it moving. I just say, okay, yeah, that was nice to know, I didn't need to know that, but just just keep it moving. You do you and I'll do me, and that's how we're gonna move in the world. Yes, well, rhiannon, that just leaves me to say thank you so much for being part of the conversation thank you for having me thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson.

Nadine Matheson: 1:06:18

I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes, and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadimappersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.