The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Detective Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
Finalist -Independent Podcast Awards 2024
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Tom Hindle: Death in the Arctic and Crafting Golden Age Crime
Sunday Times best-selling author Tom Hindle joins us for a captivating discussion on the magic of storytelling and the unpredictable path to success. From his childhood days of crafting handwritten tales on A4 paper to becoming a celebrated author.
Tom's candid insights into the publishing world shed light on the challenges and triumphs authors face while finding their place in the literary landscape. We navigate the intricacies of securing a literary agent, the resilience required to overcome rejection, and his new novel, 'Death In The Arctic' .
Whether you're an aspiring writer or a fan of Tom's work, this episode promises an engaging exploration of creativity, opportunity, and the joy of storytelling. Join us as we celebrate the journeys that lead us to unexpected places and remind us of the power of taking a chance on our dreams.
Death In The Arctic
A frozen wilderness.
A killer in the skies.
When aspiring travel writer Chloé Campbell is invited aboard a luxury airship flying to the North Pole, she thinks she’s bagged the opportunity of a lifetime.
But she hasn’t had long to admire the dazzling icy views before a fellow passenger is found dead in their cabin.
Trapped at the top of the world, the group agrees a tragic accident has occurred. But as the hours tick by, fear turns to doubt.
It seems everyone’s a suspect.
And it isn’t long before the passengers begin to turn on each other . . .
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book that you have spent two years writing, as opposed to, you know, a press release about a client's new products. There's that it's definitely more personal and there's definitely an element of oh my god. Eight agents just didn't even reply, just didn't want to. You know, was so uninterested, they didn't even say no.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the conversation with Nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. Did you know that the second week of January is the time when most people break their New Year's resolutions? Well, technically, what they say is the second Friday, but as the first Friday was actually the third of January, you know, we didn't even get a chance really, but by now most of you would have broken your New Year's resolutions. But if new year's resolutions, but if you're still going, if you're still on dry january, if you're still getting up every morning and doing your workouts, if you're still sitting at your desk and writing that book that you promised to start writing at the end of 2024, then well done. I just want to congratulate you because someone needs to give you a round of applause. So here is me giving you a round of applause.
Speaker 2:I'm still sticking to my. I don't call them New Year's resolutions. By the way, if you read my Substack article that came out last week, on the 13th of January, then you will know that I don't call them New Year's resolutions. I call them. Well, it's just my plans. It's just plans I make for the year, and I give myself the grace of making sure that my plans are flexible, so they are always subject to change, and that takes away the pressure. So if you want any tips on what to do when your resolutions ghost, you then take a look at my Substack article and the link is in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Anyway, let's get on with the show. This week, I'm in conversation with Sunday Times best-selling author Tom Hindle, and not only do we talk about his successful books, the first being A Fatal Crossing, the second the Murder Game, we also have Murder on Lake Garda and his new book, death in the Arctic. Now, I always tell my guests before we start recording the conversation that the intention is to have a conversation, and it's absolutely fine if the conversation goes off on a tangent, and this one does. This one does. So if you're looking for Netflix recommendations, stay tuned. However, in this conversation, tom Kindle and I do talk about being in the right place and the right time and opportunity, and what we consider to be luck, how he was ghosted by agents and the impossibility of being prepared for success. Now, as always, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Tom Hindle, welcome to the conversation.
Speaker 1:Hi, thanks for having me. You're welcome.
Speaker 2:My first question for you is and I was trying to be really smart and clever about this my first question is when did you know, not that you could write, but that you could tell a story? Because I think there's a big difference between being able to write and then I can tell a story that captures people.
Speaker 1:Blimey, I'm not sure there was ever a conscious. Okay, I know how to do this now, but I think it is something that I've always done, like genuinely. I can remember being a little kid and writing my own stories, like handwriting, you know, on bits of a four paper with a pen, like stories about characters I'd seen in films and you know read about in books. And you know, sometimes I would, I would staple those bits of paper together to make a book and I would draw like a cover to sort of make my own books. I can remember doing that when I was a little kid. So I guess, if there ever was a moment of realisation that I know how to do this, I was probably quite, quite young and it's just something I've always done. It's something that I can always done. Um, I, it's something that I've.
Speaker 1:I can always remember knowing I could do so, you know, whenever. You know we were at school and we were in English and any kind of creative writing exercise was kind of given to us, given to the class, I would always, I would always kind of step up, step it up a gear and I would kind of know, okay, this is, this is something I can do, um, you know, I wasn't great at very much at school like I was rubbish at maths and science and a lot of the other subjects but whenever anything creative like that came out, I would sort of think to myself, right, I can do this, this is my area, um. So so, yeah, I don't know if there was a moment of just realizing I know how to do this, but I, I think I have always known that, you know, this is kind of the thing I could do, so yeah, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2:You just gave me like I had a flashback to being in secondary school and it was the Christmas. It was Christmas time and we had to put together the Christmas play, and I think I might have been 14, 15 and the teacher said, well, who wants to write the play? And I was like I want, I want to write the play because the same thing is like those creative exercises. Like I want to do this. I don't want to analyze a streetcar named desire, which is what we had to do, but I want to write.
Speaker 2:I want to write the play, so I wrote the. Christmas play.
Speaker 1:I was exactly the same. Yeah, I can remember sort of being given a task by you know, an English teacher of you know write a story that is two pages long, two full a4 pages, and I come back with like 10. You know like that was that was. Yeah, that was me.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I could hardly relate to that and who recognized that you could write as well, because you know you always need that encouragement. I don't think everyone necessarily gets that when they're in school, because the focusing you need to do your maths. You need to do this. You need to just get through your exam, not be telling stories yeah, I mean there was.
Speaker 1:I mean, my parents were very supportive, like me. My mum in particular is, is really creative herself. So, um, she recently retired but she spent her whole career working in secondary education, um, primarily teaching music, but also teaching kind of english lit on a couple other subjects. So, yeah, she was always, you know they were, they were both always very supportive of me being creative and wanting to write things and, yeah, they would always offer encouragement there.
Speaker 1:Um, school wise, uh, there was one teacher in particular. Um, I was quite lucky in that my five years in secondary school, I had the same English teacher for four of them. Yeah, yeah, that was um, that was a teacher called Miss McMinn. Um, and you know, I think, seeing me through my entire, almost my entire secondary school career, um, she recognized that this was something that I, you know, I could do and and that I was passionate about and she always encouraged it. So, you know, I think she was the one who gave the the two-page writing exercise that I responded to of a 10-page story, um, and you know, kind of took that all in good spirits and said this is great, keep going. So I mean, but it's actually I kind of sort of reconnected with her recently, which was really nice. So when I because she's actually still at that school, so I think my first year- After all year.
Speaker 1:I'm saying after all this time, like I'm not not saying how old you are, but like really after all this time yeah, I mean, let me, I'm so, I'm 31 um, so I guess that means she's been at that school for about 20 years. I think my first year there was her first year there as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, um, when I was, when I got my first book published and I got my box of author copies that you get I sent her a copy of that book, just with a little note inside saying thanks for all the encouragement when I was at school and whatever I think that's so amazing. I just feel like this is the perfect interview.
Speaker 2:We can end it here. No, that's so good.
Speaker 1:It was a really nice thing to be able to do. And then we emailed a little bit and so I'm from Leeds and that school is in North Leeds and my folks are still up there. So I do go back a few times a year and I popped in at one point and sort of said hello, which which was really nice. And you know, it was just nice having the opportunity to do that and and you know, knowing that she's still there, still doing that same job that she did.
Speaker 2:That helped me to learn how to write. So to be able to send her that book and say thank you was, yeah, it was a lovely thing to be able to do. It's you know. I think it's amazing for so many reasons. One I was listening to. I was listening to a podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was listening to another podcast last week and the person was talking about the importance of consistency and I think sometimes when we're thinking of consistency, it's like you know, making sure you are sitting down at your desk every day writing, but it's consistency in different ways and having that English teacher throughout all those formative years of your life is so important as well. Because I think I have English. I think I had probably had a different English teacher. I think I think I know I had Miss Taylor for like two years the last two years, but I had the first three years. I had a different English teacher, but the one who made the most impact on me we had she was. She was a cover teacher and we had to call her Madam Fletcher not Mrs Fletcher, madam Fletcher she sounds like a character in a murder mystery, doesn't she, madam Fletcher?
Speaker 2:you can have her. She was such a character, but she had such a match, was madam fletcher? Do you ever watch the simpsons um?
Speaker 2:oh yeah the mad cat lady with the wild yes look like the mad cat lady and she was my goodness I know, but she was so impactful because she she would go off um curriculum so we'd read things that we weren't supposed to read, and then she would always launch into these 10 minute lectures shouting at us about well, we need to learn english and no different things, before we even sat down to do the lessons. And so she was just so. She was so memorable as a teacher in terms of exploring different things as well.
Speaker 1:Not being restricted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she definitely made an impact. But the only teacher who got in touch with me is Mr Roberts, the PE teacher. He found me on Facebook and he was like I'm so proud. I was like, oh, thank you. That's so nice it is. It shows the importance, I think, of always been able to give back as well, because you're able to do that to go back to your school yeah, yeah, it was a lovely thing to be able to do how did the students respond to you um?
Speaker 1:uh, difficult to tell. If I'm honest, I think I think yeah, no teenagers. And um, you know, I can remember well from my own school days that you know fine, I loved the creative writing exercises, but all the other what 25 kids in my class were probably like? Oh my god writing really um.
Speaker 1:so you know, I'd like to think that there might have been a couple of kids who you know saw me and saw that you know it wasn't that long ago that I was in their school wearing that uniform and thought, oh God, yeah, I could do that. You know, if one or two of them thought that, then that would be wonderful, that would kind of be job done, I guess, because I think you know it does make a difference being able to see, oh, wow, someone from you know where I've come from has gone on to to do, to do this, um, and and, yeah, if I could, if I, if I don't know, if I gave one or two kids the idea that they could go on and become writers of what they want to do, then then I'd be happy with that yeah, because I think in previous conversations that I've had, it's always come up about the first time you're exposed to writers, and it's it's very rarely.
Speaker 2:It's happened when you're in school, when you're a young kid, it's only happened when, I suppose, when you've just you're starting out in publishing, which is a bit. I think it's a bit sad because you know we always say you can't be what you can't see. So if you're able to see that as a young kid so you can come into the school and see, you know they may look at your book and go oh, it's English, but somewhere in the back of their head.
Speaker 2:It could be like oh, he's made it, like I can make it too.
Speaker 1:I think it is important. You're right. I mean, I, I get contacted every now and then by, you know, sort of friends, of friends and family and whatever, asking or saying I've written a book, how do I get it published, what do I do? And there is, I think there is a real sense that there is kind of a wall between yourself and the world of publishing, between yourself and the world of publishing and, um, and the only kind of maybe certain people are allowed in, or, you know, you've got to know the right people and and that's not necessarily true, I mean, I like I didn't know anyone, um, in publishing.
Speaker 1:You know, I went down the traditional route of researching agents and reaching out to some I thought would hopefully be relevant, and it kind of went from there. You, you know, I didn't have someone to kind of open a door for me, but I think there is a real perception of if you don't have that, then you, then you can't get in. So I think it is helpful, as you say, to, to, to meet writers or to be interested, to have the opportunity to speak to writers, for them to say actually, no, it's just the process, and if you follow the process you may get in um and, and you're right, I think the first writer I I came into contact with it was probably, I think I went to. I went to a talk in Leeds given by Anthony Horowitz just after I graduated uni, so I was 21, and I think that was the first time I'd been to see an author speak um and, and you know, I can remember that having an impact.
Speaker 2:I think I've gone. I'm trying to think. The first time I met an author, I think I went to an event and it was hosted by Marie Claire, the magazine they did they used to do like regular author events, and I think it was Freya. Was it Freya North? I think that was the first one I met and I was already I was well into my 20s before I met an author and I think I think if you're a kid, an author could feel like a mythical creature, it's like a unicorn. But are they real?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, and they absolutely are, and you know they, they have email addresses and they make lunch and they do all the kind of ordinary things that you know that everyone else does. But I think you're right. There is a perception that you know that is, that is something only for certain people, and I think it's good that you know if you have the opportunity to talk to aspiring writers and say, no, it's not just, this is this is how you do it and then yeah, it's a good thing to do.
Speaker 2:I always say, I always think it's important to do, to do events locally, like it. Obviously, if you get the opportunity to do the big festivals then yes, you, you'll take the opportunity. But if someone in your you know the local library says can you come and do an event here? We'll go to the local school. And I always say, yes, go and do it, because they you know they need.
Speaker 1:They need to see you they do, and I had a wonderful experience of something like that recently.
Speaker 1:So, um, so I live in Oxfordshire, just sort of south of Oxford, and I went to do a talk, um at a library in a little town called Wantage.
Speaker 1:Um, I don't know, maybe a few months ago, two, three months ago and, um, just before Christmas I was, I was on my drive and I was loading up the boost of the car and a car stops at the top of the drive and the driver winds down the window and I'm thinking, you know, she quite clearly is stopping to kind of talk to me and I think she's going to ask me for directions, she's probably lost or something, and she says, excuse me, I've just seen you, and I had to stop and say I was at your talk in Wantage with my son and my son, after that talk, went home and started writing his own story and is now kind of keen to try and be a a writer.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that was. You know, those sorts of things don't happen very often. I can probably think of maybe two or three experiences I've had like that since since starting this thing. But you know, it just shows that it does have an impact if you can go and, as you say, do these local things and meet people and and and share some I don't know wisdom and some experience yeah it's yeah yeah, he just could bring back all his memories.
Speaker 2:One of my best friends, her son. He must have been about. I'm trying to think when did the Binding Room came out? About two or three years ago now. So he would have been six. No, he would have been yeah, he would have been seven and he took this book, which is clearly not made for kids. You know, it's police procedural. He took it to school and he's like my auntie wrote this book.
Speaker 2:He's just like why did you take it to school? And he's like I need to show the people or show the kids in school. My auntie, I'm like this little seven-year-old of this book that's clearly not made.
Speaker 1:But that's so nice that he's like so proud of you and he's gone and done that yeah it did make me laugh.
Speaker 2:So, how you know you're talking about your writing journey and applying to agents and things. How would you describe your writing journey, Because some people think it happens overnight and I very rarely does it happen overnight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's been a lot of luck involved, and my, my family and my friends sort of always try and stop me when I say that because they say, no, you, you know you worked really hard. You, you made, you know, sacrifices and took risks and you know you did all the legwork and and that stuff is true. You know, I, um, like I, I wrote my book, my first book around my day job, you know I, I used annual leave to write it. I wrote it in the small hours of the morning before going to work, you know, whereas I'd come into the office and everyone would be talking about the Tiger King or something and I couldn't join in because while they'd been watching Tiger King, I'd been writing my book and you know.
Speaker 1:So all that sort of stuff is true. And then, you know, when it came to choosing agents, I put a huge amount of research into finding an agent or a list of agents that I thought, you know, I might want to work with, or rather, I should say I thought might want to work with me. So, yeah, I took it all really seriously and I put a lot of work in, but I was definitely I've had a lot of kind of being in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 1:You know, like fine, I put all that work into finding those agents in the right place at the right time. You know, like fine, I put all that work into finding those agents, but I just so happened to reach out to them at a time when the chap who is now my agent was looking for a historical murder mystery, you know, and he just so happened to to send it off to editors at a time when the editor, who's now my editor, was looking for a historical murder mystery. And yeah, so I, I I do feel very lucky, um, that things have kind of lined up in the way that they have, and I think that's, I think that's the way to look at it. You know, yes, you've got to put in a huge amount of legwork, but I think you have also kind of got to be in the right place at the right time, and I think that that does probably just take persistence and patience and and yeah, yeah, I was.
Speaker 2:Um, there's a quote, I think well, I probably butchered the quote a bit that Oprah always says about luck. I think she says she doesn't believe in luck. She says opportunity meets preparation and I suppose what you're saying. It is a combination of those two things, like you put, because you do put the work in. You know, the book doesn't just miraculously appear on your laptop screen. You have to put the work in, but then it is.
Speaker 1:It is that you know taking advantage of those opportunities also yeah, and I think, yeah, that is about putting yourself out there enough that eventually you find that opportunity. Um, I like to think that for everyone who who puts in the work, and you know and does you know, go, go, go for it that they will eventually find those opportunities yeah, because I think people I say new writers or aspiring writers they can kind of get put off.
Speaker 2:I think they feel like they need to have, I don't know, the perfect software program, the perfect working space. Everything needs to be perfect before they can even sit down to write chapter one. And I've always said sometimes you just need to steal time because you said you're working in the early hours of the morning, working in your, you know, writing during your lunch breaks, missing out on the Tiger King.
Speaker 1:I don't know why I just thought of Tiger King. I can. I can vividly remember just going into the office and everyone was talking about Tiger King and like all I wanted to do was go home and watch Tiger King so I could join in the conversation. But instead I was finding myself thinking, no, do you know what that's 10 hours? Was it 10 hours?
Speaker 2:I can't remember it like yeah, I think I finished it maybe over Christmas. I think maybe Christmas or during Covid, I don't know. It was something, yeah, but yeah it it was. It's like it's a lot of hours and you have to make. I think you have to make a conscious decision Am I going to watch 10 Hours of the Tiger King or am I?
Speaker 1:going to write my book.
Speaker 2:There's another one because we're talking about Tiger King, because I watched it the other day, or is it the Kings of Tupelo on Netflix? It's equally, as it's so off the wall, it's so bizarre, involving conspiracy theories and Elvis impersonators in Mississippi. Okay, so yeah.
Speaker 1:It cannot be weird in Tiger King. It cannot be weird in Tiger King, surely?
Speaker 2:It's in the weird Netflix. Where did they come up with this stuff? I agree, blimeyy well, this is a tangent. I didn't expect this to go on. I told you it always goes off on a tangent so did you have to deal with, because we always talk about rejection. So always I always say it always comes up in some shape or form, whether you have it with your agent or whether it's when you go out on submission. So was rejection a part of your journey at all? And if it was, how do you deal with it.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is kind of again I said I've been lucky, like I've been in the right place at the right time, um, so I I spent a lot of time building out a short list of 10 agents who I was gonna approach um initially and see if any of them were interested, like my kind of 10 top picks, and one of them replied to say no, um, the other eight didn't reply, sorry, eight didn't reply. And then the last one, um, a guy called Harry, he did reply and say so yeah, let's, let's, let's talk. So you know again, right place, right time, like I just happened. You know, yes, I put in the work finding those agents and writing all the cover letters and you know, as a lot of people do, but I just happened to send Harry his letter at the time that he was looking for a historical murder mystery. So so that you know that was that was incredibly fortunate.
Speaker 1:But yeah, the others like to not hear back from. You know eight of the other 10 that I sent that out to. You know, I can't imagine if I hadn't found Harry when I did. I can't imagine how soul destroying that must've been. And you hear all these stories about you know, people who spent years on submission multiple books, hundreds, thousands of rejections. I don't know how people find the resilience to to keep going. I'm amazed by it. I really, really am I don't.
Speaker 2:I said in previous conversations. There have been authors who have said that they've kept spreadsheets of their rejections and the numbers. I, I know it, like it, I, it does something to my soul how do you make the spreadsheets less enjoyable than they already are?
Speaker 1:you use a spreadsheet of rejections.
Speaker 2:I like, I avoid spreadsheets like the plague. I don't like them, I don't like excel, so I just couldn't, wouldn't do it. But the rejections, it wasn't just 10, they were running into 20s and 30s and like 100, and they'll keep a spreadsheet of the rejections and I yeah, there's no way I could have done that. But I remember being rejected by one agent. Um, in the early days of the Jigsaw.
Speaker 2:I hadn't finished the manuscript because I was doing that as part of the course, but I'd sent it because people were you know, you do what other people are doing around you in your small cohort of students and some people were sending out their manuscripts. I sent it to this agent and she got a reply. My reply came back was I remember it? She goes you write very well, but it's not very exciting. And I just, I know it's brutal, but my reaction is to immediately take offence and then press delete, like I don't care, I'm just going to on, carry on to the next one, like what do you know? And then later on, you know, when I signed with my agent and I got my due, I'm like back. When I'm like, how could you say it's not exciting? I've kept people up at night.
Speaker 2:I mean, that sounds like a good attitude yeah, yeah, what was yours when you, when you was getting those, not even getting the nose, because at least the nose, at least you know they read it. It's when they've just ghosted you, because that's what's happened. It was the silence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. It was that they have not even enjoyed this enough to to reply and say we didn't enjoy this. Um, so I, I was kind of, I was prepared for it in the sense that, um, my, my day job at the time was I worked for a pr agency and a big part of working in pr was you?
Speaker 1:uh, you had to try and get journalists to take an interest in your client's news. So I know, let's say that a client of yours is, um, is, uh, is launching a new product, um, and they want it to be covered by some of the trade magazines in their industry. Your job as the pr person is to write a press release, kind of announcing this new product and and telling journalists everything they would need to know to to go and write a story about it. And then you have to identify the journalists or reporters who might be interested in that. And then you have to identify the journalists or the reporters who might be interested in that story and then you have to pitch that story to them in such a way that will hopefully make them go oh, this is interesting, I'll cover this in my magazine. So very, very similar to trying to find an agent. So you know working out which agents you're going to go to and you know pitching to them and trying to make your pitch kind of punchy and succinct.
Speaker 1:So I'd had let's think I probably had about seven or eight years of experience by this point of doing that for journalists. So I knew how to write a pitch. I knew how to identify the sort of people I should be going to and how to discard people who I shouldn't. It all felt very familiar and I was very used to rejection because, um, you know the average journalist. This figure might be outdated now, it's been a few years since I've worked in PR, but at the time you'd be told that the average journalist has pitched 100 news stories every day.
Speaker 1:So, working in PR I was, I was quite used to, um, to rejection, to having journalists either just blank me or turn around and say, no, go away, if you're new stories, we aren't interested. So I was kind of, I was braced for it. But with a book, you know, a book that you have spent two years writing, as opposed to, you know, a press release about a client's new products there's, it's definitely more personal and there is definitely an element of, oh my God, eight agents just didn't even reply. I just didn't want to. You know it was so uninterested. They didn't even say no. So, yeah, it was. It was kind of. So I, I, I think I developed some kind of a thick skin from my day job, but it was definitely, you know, a little.
Speaker 2:Um, it was definitely, you know, a little upsetting not hearing back from from those other agents it is because, as you said it's, it's so personal, because you spent all this time on this book. You know you've given up your lunch hours, you've given up watching Tiger King. It's got to come back to Tiger King, but you've given up all that time.
Speaker 2:You know you haven't been able to. You know, stand around the water cooler, talk all the photocopier talking about Tiger King to write your book. And I've said it before, like even being a lawyer, like if I get a not guilty verdict or my client gets a really bad, you know I say really bad but it gets a really harsh sentence. I don't take it personally because I've just, I've just done my job, yeah. But when I've written my book and someone said, oh, I don't think't think it's exciting, I'm like, well, how do you know what I've given up to write this? So you can't help but be, I suppose, upset or hurt by it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't. And at the same time, I have I do have some sympathy for the agents. You know, again, like you know, when I was, while I was writing that that first book, I happened to go to a talk being given by an agent on how to get an agent and you know, I was hearing about her day to day and about the number of manuscripts she receives every day and how few of them she'll progress and it's it's got to be overwhelming. You know, getting all of those manuscripts and just knowing the amount of rejection that you are going to have to deal out, and just knowing the amount of rejection that you are going to have to deal out, um, you know, I I don't know how I'd cope with that either. So it's, it's a really difficult thing for for everyone involved, um, but but yeah were you prepared for the next stage of it?
Speaker 2:because I've always well, I always say that you, there's all these talks. I said, there's all these talks, there's all these books, there's all these blog articles about how to get an agent, but there's very little that prepares you for what happens once you've signed with an agent, and then that whole process of going out on submission, unless you have a really, really good agent who talks you through it and explains to it. But there's not much information out there.
Speaker 1:So you're literally it's like as you go along, step by step, like you're learning, I say, on your feet yeah, yeah, no, I, like a lot of other people who I've since spoken to, I I had no idea what would happen next, genuinely not like like I can remember signing with my agent and asking him. So do we kind of do we schedule like weekly catch-up calls to talk about you know?
Speaker 2:what's going on?
Speaker 1:and, like everyone, just sort of saying, well, well, we can if you want, but but no, not really. Um, so no, I, I had no idea, and I think you know, as I say, talking to a lot of people, since I don't think many people really know what happens next, um, I had, I don't know, I guess I just kind of assumed, because when we so I, I went and met him for a coffee, um, before we signed, and, uh, you know, he gave me a few notes at the time on on some small edits he thought it'd be worth making before some manuscripts, before he tried to send it out to publishers, make it as strong as it could possibly be, I remember sort of thinking, oh yeah, I mean, I guess I just seemed to be a bit of editing involved at some point in this process, but I had no idea that it would be another two years before it would be on shelves again. I remember asking him in that meeting do you think so? I met him in January, so it was the end of January. We met, and I remember asking him do you see the book being on shelves this year? And he was just like no, I just I must have looked so naive. But I just didn't know. You know I didn't know about publishing schedules. I didn't know that I'd go through you know two, three rounds of edits with him and then another, you know three or four, you know including kind of copy, editing, what sort of stuff with the publisher.
Speaker 1:Then you know, I just I had no idea, um, and there was definitely, and he was great. You know I would send him an email or give him a ring and just say so, what's this like? What's happening now? What do I, what do I need to do? And he would always be so patient and he would tell me. You know he would always answer those questions very graciously and very patiently, which was incredibly helpful. But you know that that first book there was definitely an element of right Good poker face, don't you? I don't know what's coming next in terms of like the process, but just try and like don't look too surprised, look like you're kind of cool with everything. So you know you'd get back. You know the latest version of the manuscript of like okay, and this is this round of edits, and I'd just be like great, but in my head I'd be thinking, wow more edits, more edits blimey and I can remember telling my family because, again, of course, none of my family know what the publishing process looks like.
Speaker 1:So, you know, I remember speaking to one of my grandparents and he was saying so what's happening now with this book? Then and I said, oh well, my agent's given me some notes on the manuscript, so I'm just making some changes before he tries to to sell it. My granddad just going it's a cheeky beggar giving me notes, what's. You know, um, and you know, I think, again, unless you're kind of in that world or you have someone to talk to you about what the process looks like, then of course you won't know that you're. You know it will actually be the eighth or the ninth draft of your book that goes on sale in two years. So yeah, it was that. It was a learning curve, for sure it's so completely alien.
Speaker 2:And I think I was, I want to say I was frustrated. But there was definitely this thought process of I know exactly what I'm doing in my, in my other job, you know, I stand up in court. I do x, y and z. I know. I know my job inside out. I have full confidence in that. And then it came to being a writer and going through publishing. I didn't even know what copy edits were and I'm like what, what copy edits? Like what is copy edits?
Speaker 2:what, no, what a line is no, no, no idea, and I remember my. So you're talking about your granddad like bloody cheek of it and my sister-in-law should call me. She goes what are you doing now? I said I'm doing edits. Why are you doing edits, isn't?
Speaker 2:it not done. No, this is the second round of edits. What do you mean? It's a second round of edits and we had that conversation like continuously over a year and again the same thinking okay, I've signed with my agent, I've now signed with my publisher. Well, like the book would be on the shelves by the summer. I know two, know two years two years to do what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it was a really strange couple of years because again, of course I wrote my second book before my first book even came out and you know, and that just seemed really odd again to kind of family and friends and I'm at, you know, we're at a point now where you know I've got three books out.
Speaker 2:The fourth one is coming out next week.
Speaker 1:I'm working on a fifth. I've got ideas for a six, like we've got this little conveyor belt, little train, exactly. You know I've got all these and I think of them each as different projects. You know, in the same way, but back in my pr days I would have four or five different clients who I would juggle on any given day. I now have three or four books that I juggle on a different day. That are all in various different kind of stages of the process. But you know that first year when you're just there thinking, wow, okay, two years before a book's even out, that was a really strange time.
Speaker 2:It is, yeah, I still when I think back and just like my shot and I had to do, I also had to put my lawyer hat on. So it means I've got my lawyer face on. When the jury comes back and says guilty, and I'm like bollocks, not guilty. But I've got a very, very straight face on. And you know they're having all these discussions oh, in two years we'll do this and you're like two years, what do you mean? What do you mean two years?
Speaker 2:But again, it's that same process as well, like no one prepares you for the fact that for the first book, by the time you're doing your second, I say your third and fourth. You're kind of used to it. But with that first book there's going to be a point where you're still doing edits or proof reading book one, but then you're also still working on the first draft or maybe the second draft of book two and it's constantly having to switch your brain between the two projects. And you said they, might you talk? You talk about it like in terms of different clients I had to look at in terms of different cases. I got different cases in different stages of development. You know, one's going to sentence, one's having their first appearance in the magistrates.
Speaker 1:I had to compartmentalize it like that because it's a very strange thing it's a really strange thing, um, but a very rewarding thing when you kind of get into it. And you know, I I really enjoy actually now having different books on the go. Yeah, you know, in different kind of stages. I don't think I could just.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people imagine that my day-to-day I'm sure your day-to-day as well is I get up every morning, I open the draft of the new book and I work on it from kind of nine till five, then I close my laptop and that's that. And it's just not the case. You know, in any given day I might spend maybe two or three, maybe four hours working on the new book and the rest of the time is replying to emails from my agent, from a publicist, from an editor. You know it's maybe having a little think about what the next book is going to look like. It's maybe doing something like this. You know it's maybe having a quick call with my accountant or whoever it is. You know like it's. It's really varied and I enjoy that because I don't think I could just sit and look at a single word document eight hours a day, five days a week for a year.
Speaker 2:I just think I would go mad and there's some days when I always say the words don't necessarily come the way they should do. So I remember at the beginning of the week when I went back to work on the Monday to write because I hadn't written for three weeks because it's been a Christmas break and I sat around on my computer and I'm like I don't know what words are, like I don't know how to put words, how does the story end again?
Speaker 1:I can't remember.
Speaker 2:Like what is a story? I literally had this thought process going through, so I couldn't sit at my desk and just work on a single document, you know, for eight hours a day. But then also I think it's taken me a good. I think maybe it took me like a good 18 months, maybe two years, to work out a system that works for me in terms of being a writer, because it's so completely different to what I used to do before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I'm exactly the same. It's completely different. It has taken time, but I think I'm about there now yeah, we've made it, we've worked out what works for us we have. We've worked out five books in how to write a book someone said that on this podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, eight books in. I think I shouldn't work out what character is. And I'm like, yeah, it takes a while but you'll get there, listeners, it's time for a very short break.
Speaker 2:If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. So, tom, even though you know you talk about luck, talk about opportunity and all the preparation, were you prepared for the success of a fatal crossing? So I always think you have an intention for your book and then you have a moment of I don't know what's going to happen. I just want. I just want to see it on the shelf and that's good enough for me. Yeah, but were you prepared for what happened next with it?
Speaker 1:no, no, not remotely. Um, no, I really wasn't. So I'm just trying to think about the timeline that happened. So so I left my day job considerably sooner than I was planning to Um, so I thought I'd kind of stick, stick it out in my day job for, you know, the first few books, um. But then I ended up stepping away. So I wrote the fatal crossing and then I, while we're waiting for it to be published, I wrote my second book and we turned that manuscript over, um to my editor and we were offered at that point a two book deal. So fatal crossing had been a one book deal and when I turned over the manuscript for the second book, she offered us a deal for that second book and a third which would go on to murder on lake garda, um. And I remember just thinking you know what I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for this, I'm just gonna, you know, with this two book deal on the cards, I'm just gonna give it my full attention for a year or two. See um, see how it goes, and if nothing comes of it, I will, um, I will, I will get another job. You know, there are a lot of PR agencies out there and I had, you know best, part of 10 years experience under my belt. I can always get another job in PR if I need to, if the books don't come with anything.
Speaker 1:So Fatal Crossing came out in January that I think was about March when I made that decision and I had to give two months notice. So I left in May and I can remember sitting in my kitchen in May working on Murder on Lake Garda, just thinking am I an idiot? Was that the stupidest thing I have ever done? And at the time I was thinking, yeah, it was. Do you know what? I've probably actually really really screwed up here. Um, because I'm a worrier by nature, like I worry about everything all the time, and this was just like. What have I done? I'm just sitting there alone at my kitchen table with my laptop thinking who do I think I am? What? What? Why have I just done this? And I'm already kind of thinking about okay, why? Let's? Let's start looking for new jobs. Maybe let's see if my whole job will take me back. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Um, and then, while I'm kind of in that headspace, I got a call from my editor letting me know that, um, fatal Crossing had been chosen as Waterstones Threader of the Month and it was going to be Threader of the Month. I think it was July, was it July or August? I think it was July and and and everything felt okay and I thought, okay, right, we're good, we're good for a year or two, but I wasn't prepared for just quite what happened next, what would happen to it. You know, like that, I mean, I knew, I knew that was good, I knew that was wonderful being chosen as, yeah, stone's thriller of the month. But, like you know, it went from kind of maybe one copy on the uh, the kind of the new books shelf that you have in waterstones, to suddenly being in every window, every table, all over the place, and it's just kind of snowballed from there.
Speaker 1:You know, the murder game came out the following year and, um, and you know that that was even more popular than a fatal crossing. And then late garda came out. Murder on late garda came out. You know, this year, uh, no, last year. Now it came out about this time last year Sorry, I'm not used to being in 2025 yet it came out in January 24. And that was just. You know, that was it. I mean the whole time, you know, free of Fatal Crossing and Murder Game being out, I was thinking this is going to stop at some point.
Speaker 2:You think it was the fluke.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking, like this train is going to kind of reach its station at some point and that'll be that wonderful run and we'll see where we go from there. But Murder on Lake Garda came out and you know I was saying I was talking to someone yesterday. He says I can't bloody move for seeing this Lake Garda book somewhere, and I was. I said sorry, apologies, I didn't. You know, I didn't mean to no, no, so I mean, and that was chosen also as Waterstones thriller of the month, like you know, I didn't know you could have no, so, um, yeah, so I'm not worrying quite so much anymore about whether I need to ask my old job. If they'll have me back is, I guess, what I'm saying. But genuinely I, the way I thought it was going to go, was I'd write these two books, have a great time doing it, and then it would be time to kind of go back to real life and get another job again. And you know, but that's, that's not where we are right now, which, and it's a wonderful feeling. I.
Speaker 2:I think, sometimes, though, you have to kind of take those chances in life. I think that's just my philosophy, full stop. I'm just going to give it a go and see what happens, but the worst thing that can happen is that either someone says no or it doesn't go the way you planned and you just pivot, which was like my favourite word of 2024. You just pivot, you just turn around and try something, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But that doesn't mean to say that when I walked out, I remember what court it was Highbury Corn and Magistrates Court and I did my. I did my duty there, so I did my. Yeah, I was there on duty on a Friday and I and I said I wasn't going to leave my job until I basically saw money in the bank, like I signed my contract, because I was like you should leave. I'm like no, I like security, I'm not just gonna yes, you know, float, fly out the building, but I, I think I handed in my notice. I left in May. I must have handed in my notice in March.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that wouldn't make sense because it's the same two months notice. But I remember finishing court duty, walking out of Highbury Corner, maddest R Court, getting on a train and thinking, oh shit, like what. What have I done?
Speaker 1:is this the right?
Speaker 2:thing, you have all these thoughts in your head because it's so new.
Speaker 1:Very much relate to that feeling. Yeah, that is exactly how I felt. It was like bloody hell. This, this might not have been a good idea.
Speaker 2:And as you said it's just you alone, sitting in your kitchen, sitting in front of your computer. It's just you, you, your laptop and your thoughts, and sometimes your thoughts are very, very, very loud.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean those first few days were just so weird. Like I mean I'd gone from like I didn't know what day it was, I didn't know which way was up. Gone from like I didn't know what day it was, I didn't know which way was up. Like I mean I'd gone from having this like routine, of like on Monday we have this team huddle and then this client call and then on Tuesday have this and this and this, and then suddenly it went to okay, it's just, it's just me and my laptop now and my cat and uh, we've got to write a book, and there's the pressure as well to write. I have left my day job to do this. Now I've got to make a success of it. Like you know, I can't, can't waste it or anything like that. And so, yeah, it was a really it definitely took. It probably took me a few months actually to get used to, to it.
Speaker 2:Um, it's disorientating, isn't it? Because even when I think back to my job, like I could with my own job, I could have told you what I was doing for a year easily, because, the way the court system works, stuff's going in my diary for a trial that's taking place literally in 12 months time. So I knew what I was doing for a whole year and I kind of knew what I was doing every single day. So to go from that, having you know a whole annual year planned out for you, and then moving to, there's nothing in your like my diary is just empty and I have to now decide how I'm going to fill the space. It's disorientating.
Speaker 2:It takes a lot to a lot of time to get used to that it really does, yeah yeah, and also other people, your family, to understand that you're not just at home watching homes under the hammer, like you're actually doing work yes, yeah, and being strict with yourself as well.
Speaker 1:like it could be so easy to just say, oh, I'm just gonna nip out to town and just do a few jobs, um, you know, on a, on a Wednesday morning or whatever. If you're not necessarily feeling infused about, about whatever it is that you've actually meant to be doing, you know just thinking, well, there's no boss to say that I can't. You know, I'm my own boss. Now, if I want to nip out on Wednesday morning and just do some jobs, then I will and I'll make up the time later. That could be such a slippery slope. You could so quickly find yourself doing that a lot.
Speaker 2:And then suddenly you get to the end of the week and you've not actually done any work, and you know so there's a lot of discipline required as well. I think, yeah, what would be? What would be your advice to, I say, new writers, anyone you know? They're now making that step, they've got their deal, they're writing their book. Publication day is going to be in two years. What would be your advice for them at that point?
Speaker 1:I think the the big piece of advice that um that I guess I wish I had I had known at the time, and which I try to remind myself of every day now, is not to get hung up on what other people are doing. Um, like, I am really really bad at comparing myself and what I'm doing and what I'm achieving to uh to to everyone else. You know that that is, that is my fatal character flaw, um, and I, I, I don't know, I, I just think now that I've got to the point of thinking that there used to be a time where you know, if I heard that another writer who I know has had a great day and has written two and a half thousand words or whatever, that day, and I've had a rubbish day and I've, you know, I've lost two and a half thousand words. That would ruin my entire week. Um, you know, or, or hearing about you know how everyone, perhaps another writer who I'm friends with has a steady thousand word a day, uh target, and they hit it every day without fail. That would just make me feel so inadequate in my own because I, I'm just not like that, I'm a tinkerer, like it will take me like a full six months to do a first draft, and it will be just the one draft, you know, and it's taken a bit of time to kind of get to the being in the headspace of it does not matter how anyone else goes about writing their book, how many words a day they do, how many drafts they go through before they show it to their agent, so long as you get your book written.
Speaker 1:You know, everyone does it in their own way, um, and I think most people don't write two books in the same way. I think all all of my books so far I've written in slightly different ways and and and yeah, that's kind of the big thing I guess I wish I'd known is don't get hung up on whatever people are doing. Just get your head down, get your book written, find your own way of doing it and just do what works for you, so as the work gets done. So, yeah, that would be my advice to someone just getting into it is, you know, ok, you've got your agent, you've signed your deal, you're into the world of publishing, you're going to a lot of other authors, um, who all are doing lots of incredible, impressive things. Um, don't be fazed by it, don't get hung up on it. Just keep cracking on in your own way and just get the work done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say you have to find a way to block out the noise because social media especially over, because I was talking about this yesterday in another interview. I said over Christmas, because I delivered my edits the week before Christmas and so I knew I was going to be, thank you.
Speaker 2:I was very proud of myself, but I knew I was free. I was so happy to be free, like I knew what I was going to be doing over Christmas, which was basically nothing. And there was a point, in those funny days between Christmas and New Year, you know, I'm literally I'm in the sofa in my pajamas and I'm saying I'm eating quality streets, I'm eating cheese and crackers and whatever nonsense is on the table.
Speaker 2:I'm living my dream and I went on. I'm watching, I was watching Empire Strikes Back and I'm watching perfect, and I was a perfect day. And then I went on social media blue sky, I think it was and I and I'm sightseeing people. Oh, I've written 3,000 words today. I've written 1,500 words today and I'm thinking. One part of me is it's Christmas, I'm not doing anything. The other half is should I be? Oh, maybe I should be writing. And oh, my god, all I've done is eaten another toffee penny.
Speaker 1:I should be putting. Um, that is yeah, that is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Like that will just turn my head inside out seeing that stuff and I'm kind of, when I am like head down, you know, working really hard towards a deadline, or I've got some serious edits going on or whatever, I I kind of have to create a little bubble around myself almost and just kind of and just almost keep away from other authors because I know if I've got a serious piece of work that needs doing and needs finishing soon, um, I I kind of almost need to believe for a short time that I am the only author in the world writing the only book in the world in the only way that a book can possibly be written. Um, because, yeah, those, those you're exactly right those sort of posts, those sort of tweets, they will, they will ruin my day if I'm not careful. So I I find I really have to to manage that and keep on top of that I always say before I go on to deaf in the arctic.
Speaker 2:I always say to the baby lawyers when I'm teaching them, you have to tell yourself a story. Whatever story you need to tell yourself to get through this next stage, whether it's your first day at court, your first time meeting a client, tell yourself a story so you create this, you insulate yourself, anything just to get through that moment and move on to the next stage.
Speaker 2:Because it's so important you have to protect yourself you do, yeah, you really do right yeah, very wise so before I ask you about death in the Arctic because I have to prove which I've been reading what drew you to Golden Age? I thought you looked like I'm about to give you a test. It's not a test, but what drew you to? You know this Golden Age? Whodunit mystery thrillers.
Speaker 1:I think I have always loved mysteries, like you know. Looking back back, even as a kid, the kind of stories that I would enjoy reading and writing myself were always in themselves mysteries, um, and so I think it made sense that I would kind of gravitate towards something like this. Um, and it was. It was kind of interesting when I decided to have a go at writing the first of them, the fatal crossing. So I was originally going to write a fatal crossing as a play, um that I was going to put on with some friends at school yeah, that was the idea, uh, and it was, how far did I get it?
Speaker 1:I got about halfway through, and then we all finished school and we went off to uni, um, and it sort of lived on a memory stick for a few years, um, and I came back around to the idea of maybe writing it as a novel when I was about 24 and I read Magpie Murders by Anthony Horowitz, um, and that was very much a kind of you know, midsummer Murders-esque the vicar has been murdered on the day of the vegetable competition. You know that that sort of vibe. Uh, and I'm really thinking, okay, I'm gonna have a proper go at writing my play in the style of a whodunit like this, because the play was gonna be more of like a caper so there's a thread in a fatal crossing about a stolen painting and the play was gonna be much more about we must find this painting, as opposed to it being just a straight murder mystery. So reading that book brought me back around to the idea of, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write a murder mystery here, um, and what happened then was so I like everyone, I think, in the world I was aware of agatha christie, um, and of what I had read of agatha christie and what I had seen, you know kind of the poirot tv shows and that sort of stuff. I really enjoyed agatha Christie but I hadn't read a huge amount.
Speaker 1:You know you hear about mystery writers who grow up reading stacks and stacks of, you know, miss Purple, miss Marples and Poirots and and that wasn't me like I was aware of them and I was aware of kind of the formula is a dirty word, but you know the kind, the features of the genre, like multiple suspects and interesting murder, a big twist at the end, and I, I, you know, I kind of knew all of that, um, I, but I went and at this point of deciding I was going to write a fatal crossing. That was when I went and read a stack of agatha christie's and that was a really interesting experience because I realized that all the stuff I had loved growing up, all the mystery stories you know that I'd read and I'd enjoyed or I'd watched in the form of film and tv, this is where they came from. It was kind of like finding the source of denial a little bit. It was like, okay, I can see now where all these stories I loved have come from and I can see now what I need to do. Um, and that was when I kind of set about writing the fatal crossing and I just loved it. I had such a good time writing that book, you know, layering in all the clues, writing all the interviews of the various suspects.
Speaker 1:You know what I like about reading a murder mystery is it's like playing a game with the author. It's can you solve the mystery yourself before you get to the end? And I just love being on the other side of that and being the author creating the game. You know, and like the big moment at the end where everything is laid out before you and the murderer is revealed and you say, oh my god, how did I miss this? Like writing that chapter is, you know, at the end of one of your meta mysteries. It's just the most satisfying experience, like I just I, I loved it, I had such a good time doing it and so so we wrote a fate.
Speaker 1:Well, I wrote a fatal crossing, we sold a fatal crossing, and when my editor said, do you fancy doing a couple more of these? I just said, oh my God, yes, I've had such a good time writing this kind of golden age mystery. Yeah, I was just so keen to do a few more, and yeah, so I did a couple more. I wrote the Murder Game and Murder on Lake Garda, and the same thing happened. My editor said do you fancy doing a couple more? I wrote the murder game and murder on late Garda, and same thing happened. We ended to said do you fancy doing a couple more? Um, so, so here we are, and I think as long as, yeah, I just, I, genuinely I have such a good time coming up with the location, the, the kind of crazy mechanism of the murder, writing that big chapter at the end where everything's revealed. It's just so much fun to write, so I think as long as someone will will have me writing one, I think I'm gonna.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna keep going forever probably so would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about death in the arctic?
Speaker 1:well. So definitely, arctic is my fourth murder mystery. It has a contemporary setting. It's set this year, in 2025, um, and it takes place aboard a luxury airship, um, that is going on a 48 hour weekend long sightseeing flight over the north pole, um, and aboard this airship it's it's kind of like a test flight. So the idea is that, uh, the airship is has been built by a company called skyline voyages and they are planning to launch their airships and this kind of this tour over the north pole as a regular thing, um, at great expense, in the year 2026, but in 2025 they are sending out a test flight.
Speaker 1:So the owners of the airship are aboard it, there's some press, there are some experts in kind of in cuisine and in sort of tourism, and they're all aboard this airship and they're all going to kind of fly over North Pole and offer feedback on what, what could be tweaked in the last sort of few months before before paying customers start coming aboard. And of course, you know, know, they fly 24 hours up to the north pole and one of the passengers is is found dead um, up at the top of the world and you know, obviously no one could come and help them up there, it's 24 hours back to civilization, um, and, and you know, mayhem and murder ensues when I was reading it, literally the first chapter I was like I know, I know he's in a departure lounge, so that's the first thing.
Speaker 2:And then the next thing I was like did he say end it? I had to go back and read over. I said no, he's definitely in an airship. And automatically Tom, do you remember Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?
Speaker 1:I do. I loveia. That's my favorite of the indie films, for sure there's an air, he's in an airship scene, isn't?
Speaker 2:he has to escape. And automatically, that's where my brain went. I went it's indiana. Well, it's not indiana jones. I'm like indiana jones and the last crusade it's the airship scene yeah, I mean, they are great.
Speaker 1:There is so much you can do with them as as a concept, I mean like, and the idea for it came from from my pr days actually. So one of my clients was actually, um, good year tires, american tire manufacturer, and they have, as a bit of a mascot in the states, an airship, the good year blimp, and it flies over, yeah, flies over kind of nCAR races, super Bowls, that sort of thing. And as a bit of a stunt they brought it to the UK and I was heavily involved in the sort of the press and the marketing activities around it, and so I had to learn a lot about airships. You know, just in case, a journalist rang me up and said excuse me, what is this thing floating over London please? And so I, but I felt down a bit of a rabbit hole so I'd written a fatal crossing at this point.
Speaker 1:So I was in this headspace of I must find more interesting places to set murder mysteries. I remember just reading about these amazing floating hotels, essentially that used to go back and forth between, you know, london and new york and I'm just thinking what an amazing setting for a murder mystery. But you know, the the challenge was was where and when? Because of course I'd just done a murder mystery, set aboard a transatlantic crossing in the 1920s in the form of fatal crossing, so that wasn't going to work. Um, and it took a few years to to settle on the idea of a modern airship and then again to decide on on the north pole was the place I was going to send it. So so, yeah, so the idea of a modern airship, and then again to decide on the North Pole as the place I was going to send it. So so, yeah, so the idea of an airship. It had been sort of rattling around in my head for a few years by the time I decided how I wanted to tackle it.
Speaker 2:It's always amazing how you know something from your past. So, like your past job or past interaction. Because people always ask me, like if I use my cases that I worked on previously as inspiration for my books, I'm saying no, it it may not necessarily be the entire case, but there might be one particular aspect of it that just sticks in my head. So it could be something that a witness said or something that I experienced myself when talking to the client, or maybe something in the client's personality or the way they expressed themselves and something about that sticks in my head and I'm like and then then it will find its way into a book. And the same thing obviously happened with your airship and the Goodyear blimp it.
Speaker 1:It does happen, it really does. I like little snippets of conversation. You know that you sometimes hear somewhere and you find it into the book. So there's a line that I love in the book that was a really late edition and that I heard in a bit of conversation. So there's discussion of polar bears in the book.
Speaker 1:So the airship takes off from a place called Svalbard, which is one of the most northern places in the world and the place where there are lots of polar bears and one of the passengers. So they're waiting for the airship to kind of drop down out of the sky and pick them up. And one of the passengers says to one of the hosts excuse me, you know what would happen if a polar bear came along Like and we didn't have? You know, everyone here has rifles. What would happen if we didn't have those rifles? And the host says, oh, you would die. And the passenger says, right, no, yeah, but what would actually happen? And the host says, yeah, no, you would die If a polar bear came and you didn't have any protection. That's probably what would happen, and that was a bit of a conversation about something else.
Speaker 1:So we were talking to some friends of my wife's who had been on a road trip around the northern part of Norway and they saw a sign saying that there was a risk of avalanches on the road that they were about to drive on that day. And so they went to the tourist office and says, excuse me, what do we do if we're driving and there's an avalanche? And apparently the tourist information person says, oh, you will die. And our friends say, right, yeah, no, sure, okay, but what do we actually do? Like very funny. But if we're driving and an avalanche comes, do we try and drive away from it? Do we stay in the car? And the tourist rep just goes, no, you're going to die, you will die.
Speaker 1:And, um, I was trying to make this particular character in the book just seem a little kind of quirky of and some of the others. I remember hearing that and just thinking that's going in the book. We're gonna make it about polar bears instead of avalanches, but that's going in the book, it's perfect. So you're absolutely right. There are just little, um, little little things that you pick up on and and sometimes it takes, sometimes like in that that instance I've just described. You know exactly where in your current book it needs to go and it just fits perfectly, or sometimes it'll live in your head for years, um until you find that perfect way to kind of to get it into a book.
Speaker 2:I had the exact thing happen to me just a couple of days ago with with who does my hair, and she said something and immediately I was like that's great, I know where it's going in the book, I know exactly who's going to say it. I'm like, thank you, jess. I'm like because it's just perfect. It was just something she said flippantly and I'm like, no, I'm going to use that. So, tom, before I go into your last final questions, I want to know what's next, because I had to do my list. So, fatal crossing. We're on a ship. Yeah, murder game. I say we're in a stately home. Murder on Lake Garda. We're on a private island and definitely Arctic. We've got an airship. So, yeah, can you say where what's coming next?
Speaker 1:uh, theforest is what I'm working on at the moment. Yeah, yeah, so I'm working on book number five at the moment, which is set in an eco lodge in the rainforest in Central America, so somewhere quite different.
Speaker 2:Yet again, that's so cool, so I've got one more question before we go into the final four. So what comes to you first?
Speaker 1:Does the setting come to you first, or is it the murder mystery itself? It's been slightly different with with every book, so I mean, you know, definitely arctic. As I say, the airship came first, and then it took a bit of time to work out where to send the airship um murder on lake garda. I wasn't looking for a new idea at that point. I was working on something else at the time, um, but my wife and I went on holiday to lake garda, um, and we were visiting a castle, this amazing castle, and we happened to see a wedding taking place in one of the courtyards of this castle and I remember just looking at it and just thinking I am looking at the best ever opening chapter to a murder mystery right here.
Speaker 1:So, um, and then the rainforest idea. So we, we went on our honeymoon, um a couple years ago now, to Costa Rica. Um, and I was determined not to be thinking about, you know, ways to murder people while we were on honeymoon. Um, but we were. We were staying in this amazing eco lodge in the rainforest. It was glamorous, it was remote, it was interesting, it was different.
Speaker 1:Um, and yeah, I just made a bit of a, took a load of pictures, made a bit of a kind of a mood board almost, and, and brought that back to my editor and said what do you think about a murder mystery here? And she said, yeah, great, go for it. So so they do just sort of present themselves to you um, the settings, and you know, sometimes, like with deaf in the arctic, it takes a little bit of time to work out quite how to make them work. Sometimes, with late garda, it appears to you fully formed like you find yourself standing in the opening chapter of your book. Um, and, and you know, that's just the way it goes.
Speaker 1:Um, I'm definitely in an interesting place now where I've worked out that this is my thing. You know, I, I do murder mysteries that are standalone and that are set in different interesting parts of the world. So I'm in an interesting place now in that I've done, I've done four of these things. I I'm working on a fifth. I am now thinking about it in terms of, okay, where do I go next? That is, um, that is a bit, a little bit different. That's still interesting. Um, cause, you know, I, I, I know that people are talking about them in the sense of oh the Italian one, or oh the North pole one, or over country house. So, you know, I am starting to think about it now in terms of how are people going to describe the next one? What, what one is it going to be? Um, which you know hasn't been the case with the others, but it's where we are now and I'm quite enjoying thinking about it in those terms.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of fun you know, before we started recording and we were talking, we were talking about where you get your ideas from and that question. And I because I've said last week I was like, okay, I need to come up with some ideas. And then I just went for a walk I always do a walk in the morning when I try to, yeah, and I thought I'm not going to think about it, because when you try and force it, the idea it won't come. I'm just not thinking about it, I'm just gonna listen to my podcast while I walk. And then I got the idea for the next book. It was simply walking past a. It was a poster like on on the housing estate. So just telling the council advertising whatever service they're advertising. I can't tell you what it is because that's part of my book and I just saw it.
Speaker 2:I just, for some reason, I just stopped, looked at it and I thought that's it, that's the book, that's the book, and sometimes that's how it happens. That's where the ideas come from. You're not even thinking about it and then something will just spark an idea in your head that's exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's exactly what happened with Lake Garda. As I say, we were on holiday, we went to visit a castle, we saw a wedding before that's a book right there. That's it. That's that's the opening chapters of my next book. So, yeah, sometimes it happens that way and it's it's both wonderful and infuriating, because sometimes you are just there thinking I really need an idea right now, but you can't, but you can't make it happen. Um, and then suddenly you're on holiday and it happens and you think, ah, great, cool, and you kind of have your direction for the next year or so.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's exactly what happened. I was trying to force it and I was like I need to come up with something and I'm jotting down all these things and nothing's working. And then I walk past a council service poster and here's the idea. All right. So, tom, your last set of questions are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:I suspect this is an answer. You probably hear quite a lot talking to authors, but I am, I'm definitely an introvert, um, but I I can switch on a kind of more extroverted persona when the need arises. So, um, you know, I will, I will always choose, or nearly always always choose. You know, a kind of a cosy day in over, you know a wild party, for instance. A lot of my favourite things to do are kind of quiet, solitary things like reading books, watching films, maybe a bit of gaming, maybe playing with a bit of piano, that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:But, that being said, I can very much enjoy doing extroverted things. You know like I love going out to kind of bookshops and to events and meeting people. And, um, you know, every now and then I do like a wild party. But I think it's about where you kind of draw your, your energy from, isn't it? Like you know, do you? Are you energized by being in a big group of people, you know in a noisy place and doing, you know, lots of socializing and meeting new people, or or are you energized from by uh, by having lots of time alone and and sort of thinking about things and you know doing sort of more solitary activities. I think I definitely I can definitely enjoy the more extroverted activities, but I I definitely kind of I recharge and I get my energy from the sort of more introverted stuff, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I know it, it makes perfect sense. So what challenge or experience and I always feel I have to caveat this by saying it could be a good experience or a good challenge in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:um, I think I was thinking about this the other day uh, kind of my my sliding doors moment probably was getting a C in my A-level politics exam, because that meant that I did not go to my first choice of university, which was Reading. I got BBC and I went to my second choice, which was Bangor, in North Wales, and that was the most formative experience of my life, for sure. I mean, for one thing, I, you know, I I met my wife there, um, you know, and that kind of led to me coming to to live in the south. So, as I said, I'm from Leeds, I live in Oxfordshire now that wouldn't have happened without going to Bangor. Um, I, I got a job as a copywriter at a PR agency there are a lot more of those down here than there are, you know, certainly at the time, than there were sort of in Leeds and that experience, I really do believe, gave me some of the skills I needed to write my book, you know, things like editing, writing to deadlines, that sort of stuff. So I think I'd be living a really, really different life right now.
Speaker 1:Um, and I don't even know if I would be an author. I think I'd probably be doing something else. Um, if I had not got, if I had got a b instead of a c in my liberal politics and had therefore not gone to bangor university and met my wife and come to live in the south, so, um, yeah, that that's kind of I I was. I was thinking, I was trying to tracing it back as far as I could, um, to what the actual sliding doors moment was, and I think it was that mark on that exam, um, that, or in that a-level, rather that. That was kind of where my life went down the path that has brought me swear, brought me to speaking to you today. So, yeah, I had.
Speaker 2:I'll say something similar in terms of my a-levels. I always say like I messed up my a-levels. I'm someone I get bored easily. Once I get bored, I just lose interest and, um, I messed up my A-level so I didn't go. I didn't. I was supposed to do just straight law, just do a straight law degree, and I didn't get my grade, so I couldn't do a straight law degree. And there was the moment of, oh my god, my life is over. But then there's something in my brain that thinks okay, you need to move, move, move, move, move quickly, you need to do something else, switch like it's not over. And I think always think back. If I didn't have that moment, maybe like that moment of having a challenge and then being able to overcome that challenge and still being able to do what I wanted to do, I think it was a good learning experience for me and it's paid for now, because now I'm like I'm not put off. If things don't go the way I thought they were going to, I'll just learn to.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's pivot, let's explore different things as they say yeah, sometimes you're like, oh, my's it, and then we just go into a hole, it's all done. But that's not the case. So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:Again, I was thinking about this earlier. So 25 was quite a good year for me thinking about it. So I was really enjoying my job. At the time I was, uh, my wife and I just started living together. We'd got a flat together and you know we were living in a. We really enjoyed the flat, we enjoyed the place where we were living, we were going out to lots of restaurants and, uh, seeing lots of shows and just generally having a good time. And I was about halfway through at that point, writing a fatal crossing. So I started writing a fatal crossing when I was 24, finished when I was 26. So so 25 was it's an interesting year to go back and give myself some advice.
Speaker 1:Um, part of me thinks I'd go back and tell myself keep going on that book because good things are gonna happen. But then I'm a big fan of time travel stories and I worry about creating some sort of paradox. Where well would that mean I do something differently and then it doesn't happen as it should? Um, so I think what I would probably try and encourage myself to do is I've very much come in the last couple of years. I think I'm old enough now that I can start looking back on my life as at risk of sounding cheesy um, as being made up of kind of distinct chapters, you know, separated by various major life events, and I can look back and say, oh, that was the chapter of our lives when we lived in this place, or the chapter when I had this job, or the chapter when we were doing this, and some of those chapters were great and wonderful.
Speaker 1:And you know, just really good times in my life that I look back on fondly and sometimes even miss some of those chapters were, you know, bad um. You know times in your life where you know you just wanted that kind of little period to be over, um, but I I would probably go back to when I was 25 and tell myself or try and encourage myself to just be a bit more aware of the fact that I was having a good time and that you know, um, and that this, this particular chapter, would come to an end and that wouldn't be a bad thing.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm in a great period of my life right now, um, and there have been great periods of my life since then. But I think I'm much more aware now of, okay, this is a chapter of my life that at some point will end and the next chapter might be great or it might not be so great, but I it's definitely it's helped me to be sort of, I guess, more present and more mindful, you know, right now, and pay more attention to what's going on and, and so I have kind of a bit more appreciation of what's happened before and try not to focus too much on the future and just kind of be a little more grounded in here. So I probably go back and and perhaps encourage my 25 year old self to be, to think a little bit more like that and just say just try and be more present, enjoy what's going on, don't think too much about the future, don't obsess too much about the past and and just try and be, you know, enjoy where you are, I guess is what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:I there's a reason why I say 25, because I think exactly what you say. I think 25. You're at a point when, whatever's going on in your life, you always think you should be doing something else or you should be much further ahead, and you can't help but looking at, looking around at your peers whether it's people you grew up with, people you went to uni with, you know they're all around you and all at different stages, so you're constantly like assessing everything else and not where you are and what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Yes, so yeah even if you're having a great time and doing lots of wonderful things, and yeah, yeah, no, I know exactly what you mean so finally, tom Hindle, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:the best place is probably Instagram. So I am tomhindle on instagram, um, but I'm also on twitter. I'm at tom hindle three because tom hindle's one and two were taken. It really is as pathetic a reason as that, um. But in my defense, you know, I set up that twitter account when I was about I don't know, 13 or something, and I had no idea that I would one day be using it as a professional author to try and get people to sort of, you know, buy books that I'd written. So yeah, so Instagram, I'm tomhindor and Twitter, slash x, I am at tomhindor3. Those are, those are the best places to find me.
Speaker 2:This is the same with me and my Instagram handle, which is queennads, because when I set it up and the only reason why I'm called is queen nads because, uh guys, well, his friend of mine who died now, but he used to call me queen that he's called me queen, so nice instagram. Yes, instagram came up, called myself queen. Now the only ones used looking at it are my friends, because it was set to private.
Speaker 1:I didn't know this was gonna happen and and how do you presumably that's printed like on the back of your books like it is follow Nadine at Queen Nads, like how are you kind of happy about it? Because every time I see at Tom Hindle 3 on the back one of my books it kind of annoys me a little bit and I sort of that. You know, that would be my advice. I'd go back to when I was 13 and I was not 25. I'd tell myself have a better choice, because one day it's going to be on the back of you know a book and it's going to really bother you well, this was the thing I was, because I was like you know what?
Speaker 2:I need to change my twitter handle or set up a new twitter pro, you know, set up a separate author page. But when I went to do it, as at Nadine Matheson someone, I'm like how many Nadine Mathesons are there apparently quite a few, because it wouldn't have to be Nadine Matheson's are there apparently quite a few because it wouldn't have to be Nadine Matheson seven or something. I was like, no, I want to be Nadine Matheson seven. I'll just stick with Queen Nad.
Speaker 1:I have a similar thing with websites. So I really I know that I really really should have a website, um, but tomhindlecom is, um, yeah, he's a freelance sports journalist in New York, I think, um, and I've had, we've we've spoken once or twice because occasionally people message him on social media to tell him how much they've enjoyed one of my books. Um, so, yeah, we, we, we do sort of occasionally message, but he has got TomHindlecom and I am too stubborn to have like TomHindleAuthorcom or whatever, like if I can't have TomHindlecom, I won't have a website, and I know that it's just the worst possible. You know, just have a website, just do something. But yeah, so it's kind of similar to TomHindle3.
Speaker 1:I just I don't want another TomHindel three situation which is why there is, you know no, tom hendelcom, you're gonna find a way, you'll find a way around it. I'm not sure how. Yeah, I'm not sure how either, but hopefully one day I will.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you will. Oh well, that just leaves me, tom hendel, the one and only tom hendel, to say thank you very much for being part of the conversation thank you very much for having me I I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
