The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Detective Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Anna Mazzola: The Writer's Quest - Success, Resilience, and Legal Tales
It's a Happy Birthday to 'The Conversation with Nadine Matheson Podcast.'🎉✨ It's been two years since our first episode with guest 'Scarlett Brade' was released.
To celebrate this milestone, this special anniversary podcast episode invites you to join me in marking two years of enriching conversations and my birthday. I'm thrilled to host the talented author Anna Mazzola, who navigates the intriguing shift from historical fiction to the gripping realm of legal political thrillers under the pen name Anna Sharpe and her new novel 'Notes On A Drowning'.
We explore the irresistible pull of writing within one's expertise, drawing from Anna's legal career to weave compelling narratives of justice. Our discussion uncovers the challenges and rewards of exploring a new genre, while emphasising the importance of celebrating small victories and the resilience needed in the writing journey.
Join us as we emphasise the power of self-validation, the resilience to face setbacks, and the joy of celebrating even the smallest achievement, offering a wealth of insights and inspiration for both writers and book lovers.
Notes On A Drowning
Alex knows she risks getting fired from her law firm if she takes on another unpaid case, but when she hears Rosa's desperate voice at the other end of the phone, she knows she has to help: the body of Rosa's shy teenage sister, Natalia, has been dragged, lifeless, from the Thames. Alex can't help but think of her own missing little sister. She knows how a lack of answers can eat you alive.
Kat has worked hard to become Special Adviser to the Home Secretary, and is eager to finally put the dark and tragic part of her past behind her. But when she discovers a series of cover-ups, she begins to wonder whether her seemingly perfect new boss could be involved. Then she's shocked to discover a letter that raises worrying questions about a girl found drowned in London... Natalia.
There are complex and painful reasons for Alex and Kat not to work together, but when it becomes clear that there are powerful peop
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I think it is particularly hard at the moment. I think if you've finished a book, that's a massive deal, right, you know, well done to you. And also whether or not it gets taken on or published is largely a matter of arbitrary things like luck and whether it happens to be on trend at that particular moment. So I think you have to accept that you're going to have to sort of pat yourself on the back you're going to have to sort of pat yourself on the back.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this special extra episode, an anniversary special of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. Yes, you heard me right and also you're probably thinking it's Friday. Why am I getting a new episode? And that's because it's the second anniversary of the Conversation. We have been going for two years, two entire years. We are on episode 104, which means that we have had 104 fantastic conversations over the past two years and I thought you deserved an extra episode this week. So, before we move on to my conversation with the fantastic Anna Mazzola, I just want to once again say thank you. Thank you so much for joining me over these two years and I hope that you continue to join me and continue to enjoy all the conversations that I have. And thank you so much for the support. I really appreciate it. So happy birthday and it's a double happy birthday because my birthday on Wednesday. So happy birthday to me on Wednesday and happy birthday to the conversation. Right, as I like to say, let's get on with the show.
Speaker 2:This week, as I said, I'm in conversation with Anna Mazzola, who usually writes historical fiction but has now moved on into legal political thrillers and she's writing under the pen name Anna Sharp, and her new novel, notes on the Drowning, is available now. The links are in the show notes. And as well as talking about how important it is to celebrate the small wins as an author and we also talk about book piracy In this conversation we talk about the inevitability of a lawyer writing a legal political thriller, the realities of shouting objection in court it will make sense when you hear the conversation and reinventing yourself as a writer. Now, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Okay, anna Matsola, welcome to the conversation. Oh, thank Matsola. Welcome to the conversation. Oh, thank you so much for having me on, anna. My first question for you is considering that you've written is it five historical crime fiction novels?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, right you've written five.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's five, we think it's five. Was it inevitable that you would end up writing a legal thriller?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, probably, I think. I mean, all of my novels tend to be about justice and injustice anyway, no matter what I try and write about, you know, my third one was about automata in 18th century France, and it still managed to be about justice. So I think, you know, we always end up going back to what we're interested in, don't we be about justice? So I think you know, we always end up going back to what we're interested in, don't we?
Speaker 1:um? And this was when I was casting about, you know, when I was deciding I needed to write in a new genre. And what was I interested in? Unsurprisingly, I came up with well, I'm pretty interested in the criminal justice system and you know, and also in politics, so it's kind of a legal political thriller. So it's basically drawing on all of my career, um, and stealing the funny bits from it stealing the funny bits?
Speaker 2:did anyone ask? You know, like in the very beginning of your writing career, when you're meeting with agents and meeting with public? Did anyone ask you about writing legal thrillers, because I'm trying to think of my agent asked me if I was ever going to write a legal thriller. Nothing.
Speaker 1:I said no, never to be to be honest, when my agent realized I was writing legal thriller, she wasn't particularly delighted about it, really. Yeah, um, she might disagree with me, but it wasn't. I just I was certainly never encouraged to do it. It was never a kind of this is an obvious you should be writing this, um, but then maybe that's because I can't. You know, when I was seeking an agent it was with a historical novel, but it was essentially a legal novel. It was based on a real case in 19th century London and it's one of the main characters is a lawyer. So yeah, arguably that was historical legal thriller right from the start.
Speaker 2:It's so funny because I think when we think of legal thrillers, we think of like the John Grishams, because I think I say when you're our age, like when you was growing up, when you was a teenager and in your 20s, that's all you saw.
Speaker 1:It was John Grisham everywhere on the tv, on the bookshelves yeah, and well, I still think that that's what people associate when you say legal thriller, they think people tend to think either John Grisham or sort of the Lincoln lawyer, but of course, yeah, that's not, that's not what I'm writing, that's all you're writing. So I guess that's what's become very famous, and they're usually American, american law books, um, whereas it's actually a pretty broad spectrum the legal thriller world.
Speaker 2:Did you ever think about readers expectations when they when they learn that you're going to be writing a legal thriller? And also like what they would expect?
Speaker 1:because you said most of what they know and I say most of what they know is what is from the American stuff that they read- yes, and in fact in the novel I'm writing at the moment, I've actually had to explain that um subtly, that the British barristers can't really leap up and say objection every time someone says something that they uh don't like. And in fact, what British barristers do is they stand up and they very politely say uh, my lady, I fear that my learned friend has overstepped the mark.
Speaker 1:There's none of this objection and jumping about, but yes, I mean there is. There is that angle that people expecting a legal thriller might expect a John Grisham. All I can say is they'll be desperately disappointed.
Speaker 2:It's funny. It's like I always say to the baby lawyers when I'm teaching them advocacy. I always say from the very beginning I'm letting you know now you do not shout objection. So you need to be very, very British about it and stand up politely and say your Honour, my learned friend X, y and Z, we don't shout objection, objection, no one can shout. Sustain, there's no gavel. All of these things I have to say to them from the very first hour. This is what we do not do, because you've watched too much american tv.
Speaker 1:This is not soos yeah, no gavels, absolutely zero gavels, which is a bit disappointing and I kind of wish we had them. But you know, there we are oh, because I was watching.
Speaker 2:What am I watching? I'm watching this um series on IEV X called the Twelve, sam Neill's in it okay, yeah, good actually, and it's um Australian, um legal drama series, yeah, and there's a lot. I say a lot because you basically you follow a court case and obviously you should watch it.
Speaker 2:The australian legal system is very similar to our system yes, exactly yeah the thing is I don't know if this is just for tv effect or whether this is real the barristers or the lawyers were shouting, were saying objection. They're very british. When they said it I was very australian, just very you're an objection. But they said it and I thought I wonder if that's true and I think we should do that in court. Say objection.
Speaker 1:We should introduce it. We should introduce it as a thing we do you're right. Why should we? Why should we? Do you know, be all British and polite about it. We should stop all this. My learning, my learning friend, knows what he said.
Speaker 1:We should just go straight for objection also and it's also quite awkward as well, because you have to stand up and try not to make too much noise while getting your gown together which has got entangled in the seat yeah, it would be a lot easier if you could just yell at the judge or your learned friend yeah, it would definitely be so how would you describe your your writing journey, anna? How would I describe my writing?
Speaker 1:journey Long long, long and arduous, like most of our. No, not really, it's actually been. It's actually I've been pretty lucky, I think. But you know, as with everyone's publishing journeys, there are a lot of ups and downs. And I think you don't realize that at the beginning, because you go from definitely trying to get an agent and thinking it's never going to happen, and then you do get an agent and you do get a publishing deal and you're on top of the world, um, and it seems incredible and what you don't know is that actually that's the, that's the easy bit. What's even harder is kind of staying in the game many years later.
Speaker 1:So I started off, um, it didn't be a long time to write my first novel because I was still sort of working pretty much full-time, um, as a litigator, and it probably took me three and a half years to write the Unseen, my first novel, which was, I would say, based on a real case. Um, and I was very lucky to get picked up by an agent, juliet Mashens, quite quickly, and I did have to do quite a lot of work with her to rewrite it, because when she first had the book it started with a trial. It was all about the trial and she looked at it and she said Anna, you're a lawyer, you think this is interesting. No one else thinks this is interesting, so I had to rewind and make it about the characters instead, apparently. So I did quite a lot of work on that book, but then it sold.
Speaker 1:It sold pretty well, um, as in. I got a good deal for it with the publisher, um, but then the actual book didn't sell that well, um, and neither did my second one. So then I got a different publisher and my third book came out, the Clockwork Girl, which is the one that's done sort of best. That was nearly on the bestseller list, um, but then again that my two novels after that haven't sold as well. So it's uh, it's been very much ups and downs and I thought I just sort of think we are a pretty determined bunch of writers, aren't we?
Speaker 1:and we will do what we can to sort of stay and stay in the game, and in this case it means me clawing my way back from the grave and reinventing myself as someone called Anna Sharp.
Speaker 2:But what is it? I don't know if it's like saying what it does to your psyche, but that's the only way I can put it. But what does it do to your psyche when you because there's so many ups and downs with the journey it would be amazing if it was just you got your agent, you got your deal, you get an amazing deal, and then your book comes out and immediately you know you get everything that you want. You get the number one bestsellers, you get posters all over the place. What else you get? You get tv optioned. It would be amazing if it was like that. But it's. The journey is so up and down. So what does it do to your psyche? Like what do you tell yourself? I think it's a better question well, it definitely messes you up.
Speaker 1:I found that I've relied a lot on writer friends who understand what it's like and you know we help.
Speaker 1:Well, you know this. We help sort of pick each other up and give each other confidence, because it is a real knock to find out that your book hasn't sold what they were hoping it would sell, or that it hasn't got whatever promotion they've put it forward for, or perhaps your publisher decides they don't want the next book for you. There is a rule, you know, and because it is something very personal, um, it is like a, a fist in the stomach. Every time I would say, um, so it does. I mean I personally I know some people are a lot more resilient than I am I personally find it quite difficult to keep picking myself up and carrying on. I think I've only really been able to do it because of my writer friends, because of the people who know what it's like and and stand with you, and also, and also readers hearing some. Sometimes I'll hear from readers with lovely things about my book and it'll come at just the right moment.
Speaker 1:You know to really cheer me up and think, wow, this is actually incredible, that I'm writing something that other people are sharing with me and getting and understanding, and that's the real. That's a real boost, I think. But it is. It is very hard and you know, lots of people do drop out of the game after a few books because they they're not making any money out of it and they are not getting enough from it. I mean, I think I'm one of the types who will probably carry on even when I'm not selling anything. So because I think I need to write, so, in a way, anything else that comes with it is a bonus. But I think, if you looked at it from a logical point of view for for most people, writing isn't uh, you know it's not a sensible job, is it?
Speaker 2:and that's why no, but it's not because I've had this conversation like loads of times in this podcast. I mean so like writing's the only job where you know you being you.
Speaker 2:We'll sit at our desks working I'll say like diligently, if I have to say minimum of eight hours a day yeah, you know sometimes it's not even five days a week, it's seven days a week because you're trying to get something done and then you produce the piece of work and there's no guarantee as to what happens to it at the end. It could either soar or it could sink. Someone might pick it up, or you said that agents, editors, may say no, this is not what I want, and I can't think of any other job where you spent that amount of time working on something with no there's no security attached to it there's no security.
Speaker 1:But maybe that's true of any art, I don't know. I bet, when I think I think it's true, a lot of it. But certainly, you know, writing a novel is a massive undertaking. It's like sort of I always compare it to sort of building a house, like a publisher or an agent says to you why don't you, why don't you build this house? And then you build the house and they're like you know what? I don't really like that idea for a house anymore. Can you just build another one?
Speaker 2:it's kind of like that, isn't it?
Speaker 1:because it's a massive thing and, um, you know, I think there's often not a recognition, I guess, because people in the publishing industry is for them it's a business, um, they think you can just sort of create another one out of nowhere. But, as we've discussed, that does have, you know, a real impact upon you psychologically. You have to be able to pull yourself up and write it again. And I've kind of I've got into a habit now of sort of congratulating myself on things. You know, if you, if you finish the first draft, that's really impressive. If you finish the second draft, that's also really impressive.
Speaker 1:You know, I think, especially for people who are trying to get agents at the moment and I think it is particularly hard at the moment I think if you finished a book, that's a massive deal, right, you know, well done to you. And also whether or not it gets taken on or published is largely a matter of arbitrary things like luck and whether it happens to be on trend at that particular moment. So I think you have to accept that, um, you're going to have to sort of pat yourself on the back and not expect people to do it for you, because there will be nice times, there will be prizes and short listings and times when people say nice things about your book and give you, as you say, for lots of us. Um, you know, a book that we've slaved away will come out and it might just sink, it might that might be the last anyone hears of it. Um, so you kind of have to know in yourself that you've you've done well to even get that far, I think yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 2:I always say it doesn't matter how small like the moment is that little bit of success, you just have to celebrate all the small things.
Speaker 1:Yeah you do. Yes, yeah, I also. I also um congratulate myself by buying myself necklaces. That's a less oh, do you yeah, I have several Alex Monroe failure necklaces for um projects that have not come off or, you know, something's gone wrong. But I've completed the work. I bought myself a necklace so I would, but I wouldn't recommend that. That's not. That's not that's like buying yourself a present for making literally no money buying jewelry.
Speaker 2:But it's like I've been listening to um Mel Robbins podcast because when I walk I need to. I need something in my ear. I can't do news when I'm walking, so I'll just find some podcasts. I started listening to her and I listened to her episode where she's basically saying that every morning, like she high-fives herself, no matter how crappy she feels I know, and I didn't think I would be the sort of person be like high-fiving yourself, like I'm just waking up, going oh my god, I can't even see where my glass is like I need to get up and start moving. But she was basically saying it's like a mental thing if you high-five yourself, even if you high-five anybody, there's nothing. The only other emotion after that is going to be like, like happiness, because you're applauding someone. So it's like, so why wouldn't you not applaud yourself in the morning or edge yourself on?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, I love the idea, but I also. I also don't know how you high yourself, like, do you literally just high-five one hand to the other? Do you high-five the mirror? How does it work?
Speaker 2:High-five the mirror.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I'll try that and see if it works for me, see if I find a few necklaces and things off in there.
Speaker 2:But I think it's that same concept, like you have to celebrate the small wins because this, this business, and it's only when you're in it then you don't you realize how up and down it is and how also, not everyone's journey is the same yes, very much so.
Speaker 1:And, like you said, I mean there are people, of course, who's not, whose novels sell for lots of money and then, because they've sold for lots of money, then publishers put lots behind them and then they do really well and they continue to do well and that's marvelous. But that isn't an experience of most of us and of course, for a huge number of people they don't even get to getting an agent because that's you know, the chances are you're not going. So I kind of it's made me realise that you do actually need to believe in what you're writing and want to write it anyway, because you've actually no idea what's going to, unless, of course, you're self-publishing. That's different Then you have more control.
Speaker 1:Then you know what's going on and I can increasingly see why people do it and why it's appealing. But yeah, certainly if you're seeking to be traditionally published, then whether or not you succeed is pretty random.
Speaker 2:No, and I think it's important to have a plan in place as to, okay, if this doesn't work like the whole getting an agent thing then I need to know what my other options are. And I think and there's nothing wrong to say, no, I just want to get traditionally published, I just want an agent and that's all I'm going to focus on. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do think you need to have be aware of what else is available to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think I don't think I was when I was first.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is admittedly in sort of the 19th century, when I was trying to get published- but I don't think I was aware of the and I also think that the other options have become increasingly sort of desirable in the past sort of 10 years or so. I think there are a lot, you know, there are a lot of options for people who want to get their work out there, which maybe there weren't a few years ago. So, yeah, absolutely. But I also think, you know, even if you are traditionally published, it's a good idea to have a few irons in the fire just because, yeah, you never, as I say, you know, I've had projects that haven't come off, I've had projects that have and it's. I think if I only had one thing on the go and that thing failed, I would find that really hard. So I kind of see it as an insurance policy. I always have a few things bubbling away and I hope that one of them will sort of come to fruition.
Speaker 2:I was thinking I don't know if that's a lawyer thing or just people wanting to be safe thing, because I always say and I don't know maybe if it's the right train of thought to have I always say I feel like I'm on shifting sands, so I'm going to make sure I'm not putting all my ideas, all my I don't know opportunities into one basket. Yeah, I'm going to try and do different things because I don't like that feeling of feeling like I'm on shifting sides and I've always had that kind of approach to things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe that's a lawyer thing or maybe that's a writer thing. People can write in and tell us they can write in, put it in the comments Put it in the comments. Is it a lawyer thing or is everyone trying different things to keep going?
Speaker 2:yeah, unless it.
Speaker 1:Oh, maybe it all depends on your background, maybe I don't know, yeah, yeah actually that's true as well, because, yes, probably if you live on a vast estate and you'll be failed at any point in your life. It's a bit different from from growing up in lovely Croydon anyway, let's not talk about.
Speaker 2:Croydon, anna. What I've been asking lately is when did you realize you can write? And I don't just mean write, the only thing I'm thinking of right now is like legal briefs, but legal briefs are so American applications. But when did you know that you could write creatively and tell a story?
Speaker 1:Well, I knew pretty early because I was always writing stories, I think I think like lots of us, I was always writing stories when I was younger and then when I was was either 12 or 13,. I had a short story published in a selection and I got to meet loads of famous authors, like what's her name? Jill, who Did the Worst Witch, oh, did you really?
Speaker 1:Yeah, in fact, what's her surname? What's her surname? Jill? Anyway, jill Murphy, and my sister was there too and she recited the first page of the Worst Witch off heart and made your Murphy cry, but, yeah, anyway.
Speaker 1:So I kind of knew early on that I had some talent, but then, um, I didn't sort of go back to it for years. I mean, I always loved books and I studied English at uni before I did law, but I didn't carry on writing creatively at that point. Really, it wasn't until I had my son, who's now 13, that I started properly writing again. I went on a short story writing course and that kind of got me into the habit of doing it. And I remember it was a real significant moment for me when I had a short story I was writing, chosen for something called Liar's League, which is a great thing, where if you get chosen, then a professional actor will read out your story before an audience, which is a really lovely thing, and it really was just incredible to see this you know amazing actress reading out my story and people were listening and enjoying it and I thought, oh, wow, this is an incredible experience and maybe, actually, maybe, I do have some talent. Maybe I should give it a go.
Speaker 1:Of course, I didn't realize that writing a novel is really bloody hard and also that once you've written a novel, it turns out everyone else has written a novel as well. Um, I think that was. I think that was that was the first moment when I thought, oh, maybe I should give this a go, so quite late on, when I properly embraced it. But then again, I think it depends on your background, doesn't it? You know, I didn't. I had that great experience with a short story, but when I was growing up, I didn't know anyone who was a writer, I didn't know anyone who sort of made their living from it, so it probably didn't strike me as something that was possible until quite late.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's always the thing. I feel that for a lot of people you don't realize that, not that you don't realize, you just don't know that being a writer can be a job. It's so alien. I mean, some people may say it's not even a job now, but it just seems so. It's such an alien concept. I think especially about a fellow same age, at 14, 15 year old, um age, thinking, yeah, I could be a writer, could be an occupation, especially if that's not what surrounds you no, exactly, you know, I was thinking.
Speaker 1:I was thinking better than you know the careers talks you get when you're at school at that sort of age. I mean certainly, certainly. No one suggested to me that I might do anything creative. Um, I mean, they're probably wise Actually. I mean I don't regret becoming a lawyer in any shape or form. I'm very glad I did and I think, especially at the moment, it's always useful to have something else to fall back on and something that will make money, because it is shifting sands, as you say. It is pretty precarious financially, so it's useful to be able to make a living in a different way and not have to rely entirely on on an advance. Um, but yeah, as you say, no one suggested suggested it to me as a career when I was growing up.
Speaker 2:There we are what I was gonna. It sounds like a weird question, but it's like what made you like, make that, take that step and submit to an agent? It's and also like did you know what you were doing? Because I always feel like a lot of us don't actually know what we're doing. We're just submitting, but we're not thinking about what happens afterwards no, I wasn't thinking.
Speaker 1:I mean, I didn't think it would happen, because you hear so many. You hear so many stories, don't you, about how impossible it is to get an agent and so I finished.
Speaker 1:I did a course at um City Uni called the novel studio and I and that was helpful for me in terms of structure and helping me finish um the course and finish the novel. Sorry, and then basically the thing that made me send finally send it out to agents is that I thought I was going into labor. I thought I was going into labor, I thought I was going into labor when I was a child.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I thought, well, once that happens, right, that's that's the. You know, I'm not going to be able to be writing anything, am I? I'm going to be cleaning nappies. So actually, it turns out I wasn't going into labor. It didn't happen for another week or so, but that's when I sent out my novel to a bunch of agents, like I'd been putting off, and I thought, if I don't do it now, it's just not going to happen. So I did it and then, incredibly well, my cat's turned up to be part of this conversation. Hello, sydney, come and join us. Um, yeah, incredibly. Then I got offered representation by Juliet Mushions when I had a tiny, tiny baby, and I remember her ringing me up and having this he's trying to have this conversation with her when I was eight and I was in the car and the baby was in the car, and then, when I eventually met up with Juliet, I said so, you're offering me a presentation? She said yeah, that's what I said to you on the phone.
Speaker 2:I was like right, I didn't.
Speaker 1:I was a bit shell-shocked. Um yeah, I didn't. I didn't plan it at all, because then of course, I had to edit a novel with a tiny baby. I wasn't thinking at all. I just thought, you know, it probably won't happen, but let's give it a go.
Speaker 2:But again, it's not even that you wasn't thinking about editing a novel. No one, and I don't remember anyone actually telling me that I would actually have to edit a novel after I signed. And it sounds really stupid when I say it out loud, but when I think about all the talks I had, that I went to when I was doing my creative writing MA.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all of those talks and anything I would have found online. I always say the the information stops at the submitting to an agent bit. There's very little information about what happens afterwards and that process of then working with an editor. It's only when you're in it and then you start meeting other writers. Then you start to learn and you get it.
Speaker 1:No, I absolutely agree with that, and actually the novel studio course was good because it did. It did what it did. They had an editor come in and talk to us and a kind of and so we did have some information. In fact, I've been back a few times to talk to them about publishing, although they've stopped inviting me now, presumably because I was too nervous about the whole process, but I did it.
Speaker 1:Actually I wasn't nervous but I was honest and I think absolutely that that most writers, when they start out, they have just no idea what's expected of them and of course there's a whole language of publishing that you don't. I still don't. I've taken now to stopping my editor when she says things like we need what was it? She said to me the other day, because of course, within publishing there's just language. They use that, um, that that we don't like the jacket proof or the you know, things that just mean nothing to me, like what is actually? Is that, what is it? And and why do we have to do it?
Speaker 1:Um, and it just means a blurb on the back, by the way, um, but yeah, I think I think it's very much focused on getting an agent and not very much about the process once you're in. But I do think if you've been on a writing course and you've done workshopping with other people, then that is hugely helpful for the editorial process, because you're used to getting feedback, you're used to people saying your work is crap you're used to having to change it and, of course, if you're a lawyer, you would have been being told your work is crap for years, so it's.
Speaker 2:I know, but it's funny. It's funny what you, when you talk about the language that editors use and you know, not basically not understanding the language, like I was just thinking that, um, before I started I had no, I had no idea what a line, what the difference was between a line edit and a copy edit. So when they said your line edit, no, I didn't know. She said your line edits are gonna come.
Speaker 1:I was, I said yes, but I had no idea what she was talking about no, exactly they, and that's what I include now in my publishing when I do the publishing spiel. So I explain. You know the different stages. So you have to do the, the big edit, the structural edit. Then you might have to do a line edit, which is a line by line edit. Then it gets sent to a copy editor who will do a more detailed read through and realize that you've made all sorts of factual mistakes, and then you'll have a proofread and then maybe another proofread but you're right I had no idea of any of that to begin with.
Speaker 2:No, and I always feel like when you come from and I keep saying a profession because I always refer back to my profession but I don't think it doesn't matter what your profession is when you've come from somewhere and you've been doing that other job for so long and you understand the language of your job, so we understand the language of the legal world very well and you and you know how to.
Speaker 2:You know your position in it and you know how to navigate it, and you've been doing it for donkey's years. Then you leave that and then move into something new. I think it's a bit disorientating because you're like do I know anything about life? Like who am I?
Speaker 1:but actually it's probably good for us as lawyers, because I think we are we're very bad or very good at lapsing into legal language and totally confusing clients.
Speaker 2:I try not to do it.
Speaker 1:But you know that my more assertive clients or people I work with will say I don't. You know what is a judicial review. What are you talking about, anna? And so I think, in a way, it's quite useful for us to have that experience to remind ourselves that there are certain different worlds, and if you haven't been initiated, then you don't know the language and it makes you feel like an idiot. So yeah, but I'm still, I'm trying to remember what it was my editor said to me the other day and I thought I have just no idea what she's talking about, and I'm now on my sixth book, so I'm clearly not learning very quickly.
Speaker 2:Once you were in it in publishing what surprised you the most about publishing?
Speaker 1:Well, the first thing and this is, you know, such naivety on my part was that I sort of assumed, before I got published that you wouldn't really know how your book was going to do and that you might just turn out to be a Sunday Times top seller. You might write your book and then the next thing, you know, your agent has rung you up and go Anna, guess what? You're in at number five on the Sunday Times chart. I thought that was something that could happen.
Speaker 1:Of course, I now realize that you know well in advance of your book coming out, or possibly even written, whether it's going to be, you know, a financial, a huge financial success, because if it is, then you will have had a big push behind it and you will have a huge, you know retailer selling with a supermarket with waterstones.
Speaker 1:So it's not going to come as a huge surprise if your book does well and in fact, similarly, you can also recognize the warning signs. You know if it's not going to do very well because you're not getting very many reviews and you haven't got good selling and you haven't got you know. So I guess that was the the biggest shock for me that actually it guess what. It works like any other business. Yeah, what you get out depends largely upon and what what you book it put in, and also the stuff about the bookshops and how you know what you see on a table is generally on a table because, or just if they're being paid to put it on a table, not because some bookseller really likes that book. That all came as a bit of a shock to me, which is maybe foolish.
Speaker 2:But there you are. I used to think it makes you foolish, but it well. You feel like an idiot when you learn about it yeah. But it's still even now. It's still like surprising. I don't know if surprise is the right word, but I still feel like, are you serious? Like people are paid to be on a table or to have a certain book club sticker put on their book and I'm just thinking it's outrageous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, book, and yeah, I'm just thinking about this, yeah, and yeah, I mean we won't do it. But you know, the amount of money that is involved in applying for some of these promotions is huge, and that of course means that only the big, traditional publishers can be doing it. You can't. You know, if you're a small publisher, there's no way you can be part of that.
Speaker 1:So I guess it because, we're involved in the creative side of it. When we're writing a book, we're not fully aware that it is, of course, a business and that it, you know, works as most businesses do, and it's a kind of yeah, it's a difficult balance, I think, and that's that's why, as I say, it's useful to have a few things going on, because you're not in control of any of it no, I know, I don't know why I'm laughing, because it's like it's hysteria.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hysteria, because it irritates a certain part of my personality which is like yeah, how dare you, how dare you fool us like it's not, it's not right, because we're you know, we're being, we're creative people and we're creating art and you want your art to be oh god, I sound really delusional, but you want your art to be treated with a certain kind of respect, a certain level of respect.
Speaker 1:No, you absolutely do.
Speaker 2:And to be given a fair chance. That's what I think. That's what I think why it irritates me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. I think you know absolutely and I don't think that's an unreasonable wish for us to have. You know, we spend a long time creating things and writing them and rewriting them late into the night and when we should probably be doing other things. So I don't think it's unreasonable to then want to have it treated with respect and I think, unfortunately, the way the industry at the moment is that I'm not saying people are disrespectful. Think, unfortunately, the way the industry at the moment is that I'm not saying people are disrespectful, but you know they're, they're focused on, on you know their, their survive, their financial survival, and that means that lots of things are going to get thrown aside along the way yeah, I was um on my on my sub stack.
Speaker 2:This I think it was this week. Yeah, it was this week because for some reason, book book piracy was like sort of trending on yeah, I say trending on blue sky and it's talking about it. So I was talking about it on my sub stack and the infuriating thing about um book piracy is the reasons why people do it. Well, they'll go into these illegal websites and download books and they'll be like oh, you know, it doesn't matter, it, it's just a book, because that's what someone said to me it's just a book, it's not. It's not just a book, it's my sweat and tears that have gone into this book. And also it's the knock-on effect of it. If you download books illegally, no one's going to know that you're alan alan where'd I get alan from? That? You're anna sharp books. But you know, I mean there's a knock-on effect for it because no one's, no one's going to be buying my book or your book because they're getting it free.
Speaker 1:And then the publishers are going to look at that I'm renaming myself.
Speaker 2:Rename yourself Alan Sharp. I don't know where Alan came from, God forbid.
Speaker 1:The sad thing is it would probably do better if it was Alan Sharp and it would probably do really well, but no, you're actually right.
Speaker 1:You're right with book piracy. It's hugely frustrating and it drives me mad when people say you know it doesn't matter, or I don't have enough money, we don't have enough money. Go to a library and libraries need us to use them or they can't get the funding. And also, you know you can get borrow books. You can get brilliant. You can get loads of library books online now. So I think certainly if you're in this country, then there isn't really any excuse for it is. I confess I lost my shit with a. Uh, I did a book group, um of quite rich women this is a long, long time ago, and they were telling me about how they all use ocean to pdf, whatever it was, and the thing is, they said it out loud to you.
Speaker 2:They told me.
Speaker 1:They told me about it like there was nothing wrong with it, and these were women who were, I think, at that time drinking prosetto and I said you know, it's really damaging to authors for you to be doing this. It's really not okay. Anyway, they didn't invite me back.
Speaker 2:Jacob, well, if I did it, if I'd done it, I wouldn't tell you that I'd done it yeah, but I think I think a lot of people don't realize there's an issue with it.
Speaker 1:They don't understand why it was and, to be honest, I was buying pirate CDs when I was about 15. So you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I was buying pirated tapes from the guy at the market.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:So you know I'm not going to sit here and say I've been an angel. However, as an artist, as a creative person, I don't want anyone now.
Speaker 1:We get it now.
Speaker 2:We get it now now we get it now. I just thought I was getting a good deal from Tony down the market.
Speaker 1:But now it's like no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take back that Shakira's CD. Sorry, shakira, although to be honest wasn, I'm not going to say anything anymore because you, who knows, shakira, could be listening you never know she could be listening.
Speaker 2:What do you find more frustrating? I don't even know if this is even a fair question AI or book piracy, or are they just as bad as each other?
Speaker 1:uh, I think AI is more frightening. I think book piracy is.
Speaker 2:You know, it is damaging it is annoying, but AI is more frightening, I think, book piracy is.
Speaker 1:You know it is damaging, it is annoying. But AI is more concerning in that it feels like we might all be out of a job. To the extent it is a job in a couple of years, that does feel quite frightening at the moment, and it just seems to have moved at an extraordinary pace and with not that many people hitting back against it. So yeah, I definitely say the AI threat is is much more serious, but you know you could have both at the same time, in which case we're finished.
Speaker 2:I was talking about this in my other podcast. I was talking about um, I was talking about AI and immediately I always say, as a child of the 70s, baby, 80s, child, when you think, when I think of AI, I automatically go to Terminator. That's like the first thing that pops into my head. But then, also on a serious note, um, when I was yeah, I was googling and chat. Gpt is only two years old.
Speaker 1:Like the week we're recording, it's his second birthday wow, yeah, and it's so much has changed in that time, hasn't it? That was sort of we that when, when we all became really aware of it, and since then, since we because you know the week we're recording this we've had the what are those guys? Spines disrupt the publishing industry by introducing thousands of AI books, 8,000 books, anna, and I think it's a load of bollocks.
Speaker 2:I got very annoyed about it and I worked out this calculation. They want to disrupt the industry by publishing 8,000 books a year.
Speaker 1:And they want to charge. I want to wear really bad clothes.
Speaker 2:Oh it's so bad it looks like they should be. I mean, there's nothing wrong with serving coffee. Bad, it looks like they should be. I mean there's nothing wrong with serving coffee, but it looks like they should have their little coffee shop. But um, they want to. They want to sell 8 000 books a year and charge 5 000 per book. So for me and you to have a book, so basically your whole motivation is trying to make 40 million in a year. Yeah, that's what it's about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not it's certainly not about bringing brilliant, creative things to the world, is it?
Speaker 2:no, not at all.
Speaker 1:Not at all no, I was just gonna say it is essentially vanity publishing, but on a huge scale, just making people pay to get their book published.
Speaker 2:Um, so it's just, it's not even a clever idea it's not, it's not clever, it's not original and it's just infuriating and I'd hope people just don't give them their money yeah, I can't imagine that people, that many people will do, but maybe they will.
Speaker 1:Maybe people are so desperate to get published. I think what?
Speaker 2:it is? I think, yeah, I think what it is. Is that for a lot of people I don't think there's, you know, it's understandable? Is that if you've been working away or something for a long time and you've been trying the traditional route and you're just being met with rejection, rejection, rejection?
Speaker 1:yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm sure at some point. Yeah, it's going to affect you emotionally, mentally, and if you feel like I think, yeah, and if you're looking at someone's going, I can get your book out there to not even like end of the day, I can get it out there in an hour, then yeah, they'll take it. It's horrible, yeah, it's hard, but I said I understand it. But I just hope people just take their five thousand dollars or five thousand pounds and invest it in themselves yeah, exactly, just self-publish and spend the five grand on marketing your own stuff on Facebook or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's such a lot of money. Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. Anyway, let's talk. Let's go back to you. Does it feel with your anna sharp book?
Speaker 2:so this is your legal thriller oh yeah alan, yeah, alan, I need to pull myself together. So with Alan Sharp, not Alan, yeah, yeah, which I have in front of me because I read it. Does it feel like you're starting again as an author?
Speaker 1:um, not really I mean there was a lot of new stuff to do in the.
Speaker 1:It's not set in the 17th century, so I had to learn about modern technology like fax machines and things like that. But I think I don't feel as at sea as I did when I was writing my first novel. I think when you you're a debut and you start, you really have no idea what you're doing and as you're writing you're working out how to write a novel. So I I, you know, although I do occasionally have to Google how to write a novel I do know, really I understand about story structure and character and dialogue, so all of those things stay the same. But obviously this is intended to be more of a thriller and it's more than, rather than historical and it's set in sort of the world of law and politics, but in a way that's not so vastly different from writing historical fiction. Because when you're you're creating a world, you know you're creating the world for your characters and whether that's historical or you know, within a law firm or Westminster, you still have to create that world and then make it real for your reader.
Speaker 2:Do you think it's well not? Do you think it's difficult? Did you have any difficulty in keeping, like, the balance right? And I mean the balance in the sense of talking about the law, because it is a legal thriller, but also making sure you have what makes a legal thriller a thriller? Because I always find, when I'm writing my police procedurals in the especially in the beginning with the first book, I found, because I was, because I, you know, work in criminal law and I'm, yeah, and police procedurals are criminal law I found there were instances where I was trying so hard to stick to the law and make sure that the law was right that I'd write myself into a corner, yeah, and then I'd be stuck, yeah, and then I'd have. I literally have to sit here at my desk one day and say to myself it's a story, you're making it up, so you can make it you can make it up.
Speaker 1:I agree, and I agree, and I have to remind myself as well because and also because we are lawyers, we don't want to be criticised by fellow lawyers for getting things wrong, so we do need to get most of it right. But equally, the reason most of our people are reading our books are not to check our legal knowledge, but because they want to be told a good story and they want characters that will engage them and a story that will tweet them away to somewhere else. So, yeah, I continually have to remind myself that no one is really interested in the police procedure or the legal procedure. And then the book I'm writing at the moment is about a barrister, um, conducting an Old Bailey trial. And, and because I'm not a barrister, I've had to do a lot of research about you know the correct formalities and what people actually say and what.
Speaker 1:And at the moment I'm on a first draft which has lots of that stuff in it. I know that when I come to the second draft, it will just all come out because no one actually cares about that. No one wants to read about that stuff. Well, I mean, some people do, but they tend to be barristers and they're getting their info elsewhere. So yeah, it is. It is tough because you want to. You don't want to be accused of not knowing what you're talking about, but you also don't want to bore people senseless with the civil procedure rules or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I think civil procedure rules. Yeah, I'm only laughing because you know you bore yourself senses of them anyway when I have to teach, but, um, when I have to teach professional conduct and client care and I'm like, oh my god, the rules they're like, they're not exciting.
Speaker 1:You can't make it exciting yeah, you can't make it exciting, you really get it's best to keep it all out. I always line of duty, always, and I love line of duty.
Speaker 2:It always makes me laugh because whenever they refer to what we all call pace, they always say the police and criminal evidence that 1984, like no one calls it that in law they just say paid and even when I'm, even when I'm marking exam papers, like the students, they'll, they'll write out the film, the full um statute in, like the first answer, but then after that, everything's just it's pace.
Speaker 1:it's pace in line's pace 61, 82, pace In line of duty no.
Speaker 2:We need the full statute. That's what we need. What have you found the most challenging part of it, though, of writing legal thrillers? Because I just think as well, legal thrillers I feel like I'm saying they kind of came out of fashion for a while, like they were so big in the 90s like everything yeah, yeah everywhere and I feel they kind of died away. But now I feel in where we are in the 2020s mid-2020s.
Speaker 1:They seem to be coming back. Yeah, yeah, what have I found hardest? I mean, I think that is the hardest bit is it the sort of striking, the measure between getting it right, or at least getting it vaguely accurate, and keeping it interesting for non-lawyers? Because, you know, much as I love the law, a lot of it is bloody boring and, um, you know, a lot of what we have to do is not to do with, you know, chasing the crims and tracking down the evidence. It's actually to do with, you know, filling in funding forms and all sorts of dull stuff. So it's making sure that it's plausible but, at the same time, exciting and, of course, I am having to bend the truth in that, both of my, so that my first legal thriller is Alan Sharp.
Speaker 2:Alan.
Speaker 1:Alan involved. There were two main characters, but one of them is um, a legal aid solicitor. Uh, which is not very surprising, given I once was a legal aid solicitor. Um so, and then in my second one it's a criminal barrister. So I've had to sort of try and introduce readers to their world without giving them the boring bits.
Speaker 1:You know, I've tried to yeah and and also and I've also had to make them investigators, which, of course, in real life we're not. You know, you tend to be you. You do do you know a huge amount of analysis and some sort of investigating the evidence, but you're certainly not running about finding the true killer no, you're not or getting to the bottom of a huge conspiracy, as happens in my first novel, um, but no one realistically would want to read about the things that we did on a day-to-day basis a thriller?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, because I'm working. Even though I'm doing my edits and I'm like I was working, I've been working on something new as well and it's got a lawyer in it. And this morning I don't know why it just occurred to me this morning because I've got this lawyer going out and like he said, doing the investigating. Yeah, I walked into a bedroom and I said to myself, why is she doing this? Like I've never investigated anything as a criminal lawyer. The most I've done is gone on a site visit and got around my little camera and taken some pictures of a park.
Speaker 2:I haven't investigated anybody, but that's what the readers want. They want them to go on this. It's the whole pelican brief. It's the whole John. Griffin, they want them to go on a chase.
Speaker 1:That's exactly and I have you know, in the in in um notes on a drowning, I have given both of my characters a strong motivation to have to win it because it starts off with the drowning of a young woman. I have given them both a strong motivation to um to seek the truth into her death. But yeah, as you say, realistically, if this case had come to me as an inquest when I was in private practice, as happens to alex in the book, then I would have had to tell the family look, I'm really sorry, but I'm not a private investigator, I'm not the police. I can't go about, can't go about challenging all the evidence and, you know, uncovering CCTV and finding out the truth. But you know that's what people want in a thriller, um or at least I assume it is, we'll find out.
Speaker 2:When it's no, I think no, I, I think that is what people want in a thriller. I just remember them when I was a baby lawyer and my friend was a baby lawyer and we was both in Westminster. Well, what was it called? Yeah, it was called. It was Horseray Road back then, but Westminster Magistrates Court, and I was in one court, she was in the other, and then I came out and this guy just suddenly runs out of her courtroom and she just strolls out and I'm like what's happened? And it was her client who climbed over the dock.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, he climbed over the dock and he'd run out, and he was running out of trouble and, like in a film or like a legal thriller, she would have to be the one chasing after him yeah and no. She just strolled out and I was following her and I was like what's going on? She's like he's escaped yes, you're right.
Speaker 1:In a thriller that would be us pounding the street, vaulting over. Yeah, oh, there's Craig.
Speaker 2:Off he goes there's Craig, off you go, just let him go. I said someone will get him, I'm not chasing. I'm not chasing after him, oh dear. I was thinking like my um.
Speaker 1:I always say to the baby lawyers I say, listen, you need to remember that juries watch too much tv, so they're, they're expecting those dramatic moments and in the real world there are very few dramatic moments when you're having a court case yes, there's a lot of, and that's that's why, yes, the the novel I'm writing at the moment is about a barrister who is from a criminal family and she is forced to prosecute a supposed serial killer who she comes to realize might in fact be innocent. But, of course, as I go through all the court procedure, actually what would really happen?
Speaker 1:goes on and on, and, on, and on and on. So I'm condensing it. I'm sorry this will be totally natural, but I can't. You know, in a real multiple murder trial it would go on for weeks, and weeks, and weeks and I could months, yeah, yeah, months, possibly, yeah, possibly, months. So I'm condensing it and I'm only giving them the exciting bits, because I can't imagine anyone will keep reading otherwise it's even like with my police procedurals, because I had I spent.
Speaker 2:I always could put myself in this same mess where I have to sort out my timeline before I can even start editing. And that took me like two days of this one and I'm sorting out my timeline, I'm going through the pages and I'm thinking to myself there is no way, there is no way in this world that you could solve a multiple murder case, a serial killer case, in 10 days, but yet this is what's happening.
Speaker 1:Mine takes 14 days in mine at the moment, but you know, maybe that's too.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'll have to condense it even further so, anna, before I ask you to explain and talk about, I'm asking you to do like the elevator pitch for notes on the drowning, which is very good, because I did a blurb for it, you did you were very kind. It was very good. I opened when it arrived. I was like. Well, first the proof arrived of sweets, which is always an excellent yeah, there you go, that is well, I think that's what I messaged you and said.
Speaker 2:You weren't even like thank you. It's like I've got sweets that was my suggestion.
Speaker 1:My editor was suggesting all sorts of things. I was like, no, just just send sweets, that's what people actually want yeah, especially me.
Speaker 1:I want sweets, so tell us about notes on the drowning uh right, I'm really bad at doing elevator pictures of my own books, but it is about two determined women. So, as I mentioned, there's Alex, who's a legal aid lawyer working on the inquest into the death of a young Moldovan woman who is dragged from the tent. And then there's a second woman, kat, who is the special advisor to the Home Secretary, and she also comes to hear about this case and also realizes that the sort of official narrative that they're being given is not correct. So they have to. I can't tell you why it's difficult for them to come together, but they have to overcome their difficulties to come together to investigate what's actually going on.
Speaker 1:And that's what then leads them into this sort of on this trail of this um corruption at the heart of government, um, but also there is a cat called cat stevens in it, and what else can I say? Uh, yes and um. And it's also about Russian money. And I originally got the idea when I was hearing about um, the Epstein scandal and hearing his survivors talk and, and you know, learning about how many powerful people were involved in his life and in participating and covering up what wanted to talk about. Sort of a very abusive man who is sort of sanctioned by all these powerful political people and then actually uses it against them. So that's sort of where it came from, but I've put jokes in this one to make it slightly more powerful.
Speaker 2:This is the thing, though when you, when you look at these real life stories, even like with um, what's his name? Sean diddy, coombs and stuff, yeah, and away with things for so long I'll say allegedly, because he hasn't gone to court yet, but anyway, they can allegedly get away with things allegedly for so long, but it's the people. So I'm always fascinated more by the people around them who just let it carry on and they just remain quiet.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you've seen today that various other people have been charged in relation to the Mohamed El-Fayed case because they were actually helping him carry out the abuse of all these girls and women. And yeah, that's the really fascinating thing, because you can kind of it's. You know, we know that very bad people exist, but what's really confusing and and just weird is how people sort of come to view those people as so powerful that they're willing to enable them to carry out these criminal and terrible acts. And that's, yeah, I think that's a really interesting phenomenon and of course, there's been lots of them and they continue to be lots of them, and every time it happens everyone goes. I'm so shocked and this is terrible, and then and then it turns out that actually a load of people knew and weren't doing anything about it or actively helping them carry out the abuse, and I don't know what's happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know what happens to people. When they get adjacent to power, they feel I don't know. Maybe they feel that they're untouchable to people. When they get adjacent to power, they feel I don't know. Maybe they feel that they're untouchable just by being close to that person and then allowing that behavior to carry on. But it all comes out eventually well, it doesn't all.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there's lots of stuff yeah, yes, yeah there'll be.
Speaker 1:There'll be more that comes out, but yeah, so I was really interested in that sort of dynamic and um and yeah, so I added that to bits of the legal aid world. I knew and, as I say, particularly the funny, hilarious things that happen in law firms that you wouldn't believe. So a few of them have gone in there, like the post boy. The post boy who was just locking all of our posts, or outgoing posts, in a box for a week before anyone realized what was going on.
Speaker 2:He's in there do you know what there was? So you're right. There are so many funny things that happen in the law firm.
Speaker 1:A lot of them I won't even talk about on this podcast, right now we can't talk about them, but yeah, there's so many surreal things that happen and you think, is this really going on? Is this really normal? So, yeah, a few of them have got in there in shrouded form.
Speaker 2:I remember like one of the craziest things was um and I'm sure I pull it in that I pull it in one of the books, not in the same way, but I did use it in a book was where I remember I was going to work and, um, I wasn't. I wasn't the trainee solicitor. Yes, I think I was a paralegal and I was going, I was going to work. I'm in this criminal law firm and I remember it was summertime, so they had work experience, kids and you know work experience because they're 15 years old. Yeah, and maybe I was a trainee, but anyway, we've got a 15 year old girl and work experience and I come in.
Speaker 2:I remember going upstairs that's where the photocopier was and I can see her photocopying and I don't know what said to me look at what she's photocopying. And I've gone to look. They, someone only had her photocopy in the autopsy photo album. I shouldn't laugh. I know I'm laughing now, but at the time I was like who made? Why are you doing this and who told you to do this? And now you're 15, you should not be looking at autopsy pictures. No, and someone had a photocopy in there, but I don't yeah it's not funny it's not funny, but it is kind of funny.
Speaker 1:It is kind of funny, but oh, we're awful it's so.
Speaker 2:It is so awful, funny, funny moments. Funny moments do happen. So how many Anna Sharp books do you think you have in you? And do you, will you go back to your, to your historical crime fiction?
Speaker 1:um, I hope so. So it's not looking very healthy for historical at the moment. Basically, is what what? The advice I'm being given? So I mean that historically is what I really love, and I hope to at some point be able to come back in to it, but I might have to pretend to be someone else at that but maybe that's when.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's when I really will be Alan. That's when I'll be Alan I don't know what would be a good historical fiction writer name, alan's going to say anyway. So hopefully I will return to historical fiction at some point, but at the moment I don't think I'd get a deal or wouldn't get a decent deal. So there will definitely be another, at least another anisholm, or at least I hope there will be, given they've contracted me to write it. That's life for your life, which should be out uh, 2026, I think. Um, and then after that, I don't know, I, uh, I guess if those do all right, then I will continue being Anna Sharp, and if they don't, then I will become yet someone else doing something else. Um, you know, I've got, I've got an idea for a crime novel that I want to write. So I'll probably do that, but whether, under which name, who knows knows.
Speaker 2:And for people listening.
Speaker 1:Alan, alan. I think maybe that is the secret. That's where I've been going wrong to date not being called Alan. I think that's what the people want.
Speaker 2:We want Alan. Yeah, right, before I go on to your last set of questions Anna, not Alan, so this is not your last set, but I'm always interested in what you, what, what, what piece? I'll start again. What piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier? I'm gonna ask you in both ways, both in your career as a lawyer, but also in your career as a writer.
Speaker 1:oh, okay, um, advice I wish I'd been given earlier, I guess, um, as a writer I would be. I wish I'd kind of worked out earlier on that. What you need to know when you're writing the book is what is the reader reading to find out what is propelling?
Speaker 2:us through the narrative?
Speaker 1:what is keeping them turning the pages? Because I think it took me so many drafts to get my first novel right and it's quite a lot to get my second novel right, because I wasn't really thinking about what is a reader reading to find out. I was thinking about the characters and the setting and all that. But what you really want, especially if you're writing something within the crime genre, is to have, you know, a narrative that pulls the reader through the book and makes them, um, want to carry on writing and desperate to find out what happens next. It took me a long time to work that out, so I think I wish someone had sat me down and told me that. And what was the other question? What?
Speaker 2:what would you, yeah, what piece of advice you'd wish you'd been told earlier in your career as a lawyer.
Speaker 1:As a lawyer, oh gosh, I don't know. Do the kind of law that makes money, maybe not human rights law? No, I'm kind of joking. I did know that. I did know that I was not going to make huge amounts of money and yeah, um, I decided to do it anyway. I don't know what advice do I think would have helped me as a lawyer. Hmm, I don't know, what do you think, what advice I know, even now I'm thinking about it now.
Speaker 2:What piece of advice? Hmm, oh, mine's really boring. It's like it's more health and safety, like maybe I would. I would have started wearing trainers to court earlier. That's a good idea, actually maybe mine.
Speaker 1:Maybe mine would be health and safety as well in that. Get yourself a proper keyboard, because I ended up with RSI quite early on, because I spent so long tapping away on a laptop as both a lawyer and a writer and it had I got a proper desk set up and a proper keyboard, I wouldn't have the problems I have today. So there you go. We've given everyone some healthy tips it's very practical.
Speaker 2:And then where you train, yeah, and swap into your shoes when you get into court. It took me far too long to start doing that. I should have just done it from day one. Yeah, okay, and uh, your last set of questions are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:I am what my son would call an ambivert, which I didn't know was a word, but he says it's a thing, because I think both he and I are this, which is I can do the social stuff, and you know, as you know, I'm always at launches and parties. I love, I love going out and meetings and doing events. I then need time on my own. You know I need to be locked away, writing or with a book. So I would say both, I can do the sociable bit, but I need my own time what are you reading now?
Speaker 2:I never ask anyone what they're reading, but what are you reading now?
Speaker 1:well, I do. You know what I've just started, which is totally brilliant. It's Peckham Boy. Have you read that? No, I haven't. It's so good. I'm just trying to remember the name of the author, but it's about this guy who grows up um on the estates in Peckham and ends up being it's Kenny Imafidon is his name um and he he um. So he relates growing up in this sort of very poor household without any kind of male role model and how he became sort of attracted to gang culture. So that is really really fascinating. I've also been, I'm also. I mean, I tend to read lots of things at the same time which I now realize is partly because I think I have ADHD and I always have several.
Speaker 1:So I'm also reading, if it Bleeds, by Stephen King, because I've been on Stephen King, um, and I've just finished. Death at the Sign of the Rook by Kate Atkinson, which is the latest Jackson Brodie one you are reading a lot at the same time. I am really. I'm also reading non-fiction. Do you not do that? Do you not read several books? No, I do.
Speaker 2:I don't even know why. I'm even acting like I don't, because I'm looking around. I'm looking around me and I'm like yeah, I do. I think I've got um. Oh god, I've forgotten the time. My brain's not working today, but I'm reading like we're in good company.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm reading like a cozy crime book, which I will remember. I'm reading Louise Minchin's Isolation Island. I'm reading a non-fiction book about cryptocurrency, because I think it's all. I think it's all a scam, yeah, so, and I'm probably going to use it in a book somehow. So it's a bit of research. Then I've always got my comics on the go, so yeah, yeah, I do, and I think I've got an audio books as well.
Speaker 1:I've got them on the yes, I've got audio and tell you what I'm listening to um Fatal Proof by John Fairfax. You ever read him? No, he writes. He writes legal thrillers, but no one seems to have heard of him. And he's brilliant, he's really good, so I've got that on the go as well. So lots of things.
Speaker 2:I'm listening to and I don't know why. Let me just put it on. I'm listening to the Pelican Brief. Oh, ok, I want to hear how. So I'm listening to that as well. I'm using my Spotify pre-credits brilliant, right. So, moving on, what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most? And I always say it can be a good experience or a bad one, so you don't feel it needs to be.
Speaker 1:The world is over oh, I mean, I don't. I mean, I'm sure, a lot. I mean the thing that happened to me recently, without getting too depressing about it, but it's a bit of a. So last year, about a year and a half ago, I was diagnosed with um, a meningioma, which is a kind of benign brain tumor, yeah, but it was taken out, my hearing nerve, um, and I've had treatment for it and they think they've stalled it. So that's great.
Speaker 1:But there were, there were a few weeks where we didn't know what it was, we didn't know whether it was cancerous, we didn't know what was going on where I was, you know, and that was really frightening.
Speaker 1:But it did just make me kind of. It's, in a positive way, reminded me that we do have to sort of make the most of things and you know, carpe diem sounds a bit naff, but it did remind me that I might not have that long actually and I should be doing things with my time that are worth one I want to do, and also that I shouldn't be hanging around with people who sat my energy and confidence, that I should be focusing on the people who you know, the fun people and the fun things I want to be doing so. That was kind of important for me and I immediately went out and got two tattoos. For ages I've been thinking I wanted them but wasn't sure, and I thought you know, eff it, I'm just going to do it just do that, so that that has changed my outlook on life in a good way, I think a good way?
Speaker 2:I think one. That's one of the things that I think of. I don't. It's just been like drummed home into me the last couple of years. It's like looking at who's around you, yeah, and who's taking your energy and who you want to give your energy to yes, absolutely. Because life is too short for me to be, you know, sitting with people who are just draining me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think you know a lot of those people you know, know they might be people we've known for a long, long time. Yeah, up with it.
Speaker 2:But then when you realize that actually it's not helping you, it's not helping your mental health and it's not helping you have a happy life, then yeah, get rid of them yeah, I said it to a friend of mine like I was trying to explain for why I wasn't saying, not talking to another friend, yeah, and I said to her and she didn't get it until I said to her I've given them a lot of grace in the past, like so much grace and not to say that's not reciprocated, but there's only so much you can give. Before you realise you know what, I'm just wasting my time. There's a whole world out there.
Speaker 1:Exactly, Exactly. I like that you know the negative energy and positive energy. Yeah, it's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is all right. So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:oh, now this is a bit sad, as I was thinking about I guess it would be, um, because I've I'll be honest about, I've struggled lots of my life with eating disorders and sort of body image. It was just just be to say that shit doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't really matter what you weigh or what you look like or, um, how much you eat. You're focusing on the wrong thing. You know there's so much more in the world. It would be to sort of open my eyes and sort of see outside that narrow way that I was looking at that time.
Speaker 1:I mean I probably wouldn't have listened to myself.
Speaker 2:I would have, I would I mean I always say 25s. I think there's a little bit it's a bit much of a better chance of you listening at 25 than you were at 18, 18, you definitely want to listen.
Speaker 1:I want to listen to anybody, definitely, no, no, exactly, you're right.
Speaker 2:25, there's some chance, yeah there's some chance slim, but okay. So finally, anna mcsona or anna sharp, alan or alan yeah. Or Anna Sharp, alan or Alan yeah. Where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:Basically everywhere apart from Twitter these days. So I've joined Blue Skies. We've discussed Anna Mads on Blue Skies. It's really fun, isn't it? I'm really enjoying it, it is.
Speaker 2:It's really good on there.
Speaker 1:And I'm also I'm Anna Matt Solo writer on Instagram and threads as well. So, yeah, I spend far too much time on social media. So you know, I would love it if people came and talked to me. I've also got a website, annamatsolacom, but I can't say that I update it very frequently. In fact, this has reminded me that I do. I don't think there's anything on there at all about Anna or Alan Sharp at the moment which is needs to be rectified quite quickly.
Speaker 2:No, I can tell you what's on it, because I did go on it. Oh yeah, because you know I do my research. So notes on a dry on a drowning is mentioned yeah, but that's it.
Speaker 1:That's it I need to do. I need to do a lot more than that by January, don't I?
Speaker 2:uh, please do. I feel like I've helped you today. I've done anything. I've told you, it's mentioned.
Speaker 1:Mentioned. There is some bloke called Alan writing in the book. There is some bloke called Alan, all right, so, anna.
Speaker 2:that just leaves me to say, anna Matsola, thank you so much for being part of the conversation.
Speaker 1:Oh no, thank you for having me on. It's been so lovely talking to you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes, and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes. And if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
