The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Detective Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
Finalist -Independent Podcast Awards 2024
*music: the coffee jam ©stereo_jam
The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Sarah Raughley: Fantasy Worlds and Building Stories
Best-selling author Sarah Raughley brings her powerful voice to our latest episode, sharing her journey and insights into the world of YA fantasy and historical fiction. Known for her dynamic storytelling, Sarah discusses her latest work, "The Queen's Spade," a gripping historical thriller that she describes as a Bridgerton revenge thriller.
Sarah's reflections on the creative influences of video games and anime highlight the importance of diverse mediums in shaping unique storytelling perspectives. We celebrate the creative power that emerges from these shared struggles, emphasising the necessity of telling multifaceted stories that resonate universally.
As we navigate the complex landscape of publishing, Sarah shares insights on overcoming stereotypes and the pressure to conform to industry expectations. This episode is a rallying cry for embracing creativity and authenticity, fostering a supportive network for emerging authors.
A young lady can take only so many injuries before humiliation and insult forge a vow of revenge. . . .
The year is 1862 and murderous desires are simmering in England. Nineteen-year-old Sarah Bonetta Forbes (Sally), once a princess of the Egbado Clan, desires one thing above all else: revenge against the British Crown and its system of colonial "humanitarianism," which stole her dignity and transformed her into royal property. From military men to political leaders, she’s vowed to ruin all who’ve had a hand in her afflictions. The top of her list? Her godmother, Britain’s mighty monarch, Queen Victoria herself.
Taking down the Crown means entering into a twisted game of court politics and manipulating the Queen’s inner circle—even if that means aligning with a dangerous yet alluring crime lord in London’s underworld and exploiting the affections of Queen Victoria’s own son, Prince Albert, as a means to an end. But when Queen Victoria begins to suspect Sally’s true intentions, she plays the only card in Victorian society that could possibly cage Sally once again: marriage. Because if there’s one thing Sally desires more than revenge, it’s her freedom. With time
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I was also inspired by non-literary mediums. You know what I mean. Like I was inspired by video games, I was inspired by movies. There's so many ways to tell a story and I think, instead of like, when people dismiss certain things, like oh, dismiss anime, as oh, you're a weeb, or that's geeky, or this is childish and stuff like that, you're missing out on a learning experience.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. And, if you can believe it, we have already completed the first month of 2025. We're in February. It just goes so quickly. You start the beginning of the year thinking, oh my God, january is so long, I don't know how I'm going to get through it, and it's cold and it's miserable. And then, all of a sudden, it's done and here we are in February and the days are starting to get a little bit longer just a little bit, not much. Get a little bit longer just a little bit, not much. But spring spring will hopefully be on the way anyway.
Speaker 2:One of the most fun things and the things I love about this podcast is the fact that I get to speak to so many different authors and I'm introduced to them in so many different ways. Some authors I know already for example, I've met them at festivals and we've just become friends over the years, or they're introduced to me by their publicist, or I find them on social media. And the author I'm talking to today, sarah Raleigh. I discovered her on threads and I saw her posting. And then I saw her post her amazing cover for her new book called the Queen's Spade and she put out a post saying you know, does anyone want to talk to me for their podcast? And I was like, absolutely yes, yes, I do want to talk to you. So I got in contact with her and here we are. She's my guest today on the conversation with Nadine Matheson and Zoe Riley. She's the best-selling author of YA fantasy novels, which include the best-selling effigy series, and she's now moved into historical fiction and her new book, the Queen's Spade. She describes it as Queen Charlotte, as a revenge thriller. So the Bridgerton fans out there, they're gonna love it.
Speaker 2:And the one thing I loved about my conversation with Sarah is that one way or another, you know, I'll find a way to put in a Star Wars reference. So there's a Star Wars reference in there and we were talking about the importance of paying it forward as black writers. And there were several moments in this conversation where, if you saw me, my mouth was just wide open, jaw dropped, because there were things that she revealed about her career and her experiences as a writer that just both baffled me and outraged me. But it's so important for you to hear this conversation. So this week, in addition to the jaw dropping moments, sarah Raleigh and I talk about having to address the same old questions about diversity in publishing, the importance of writing books with black heroines and also black characters as the love interest, and the switch between wanting to write and needing to write. Now, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Sarah Rowley, welcome to the conversation, thank you. Thank you for having me Right, sarah, I didn't mean to get like quite deep with my first question, but I think what it was.
Speaker 2:Today in the UK there's a publishing magazine called the bookseller and it had an article and it's it and I call it like it's the annual article where it says you know, diversity has fallen down in in publishing and there's numbers alone, like across the board, inside, outside, and I just I tried not to roll my eyes, but it was. I just rolled my eyes because I'm like every year, without fail, there's this announcement. So you know, looking at all your the books that you write, you know writing, um, I say, children's books and YA fantasy books how important is it for you to be able to tell these stories?
Speaker 1:I mean it's important, especially because of what you've just said. Right, it's like this, these constant yearly like, oh, we're not there yet, and it's like, well, when are we going to get there then? And they keep kind of saying this as if it's out of their hands, right, like the publishing industry continues to talk about diversity as if it's something that is just going to happen out of nowhere, whereas they have the direct power. They have the power to promote our books you know certain authors and to not push certain authors to support our works, to publicize and market our works, not just to buy it and put it out there, but to market it so that people know that they exist.
Speaker 1:So I kind of sometimes feel like publishing kind of pretends as if they're not the ones that are impeding progress when they are and if they want, like I think that there are plenty of readers out there that want, you know, books with Black heroines, but they just don't know that certain books exist, right, or publishers aren't doing enough to actually reach those particular readers. The only thing that I can do I mean I've always been tearing my hair out about this because I can't control what traditional publishing does, you know, I mean, I can scream about it, we can all scream about it to the rafters, but ultimately they're going to do what they're going to do. So the only thing that I can do is just continue to write my books and put them out there However I can and try to reach readers However I can, because I know that there are readers out there that need to see black heroines, you know, and they're just not being taken seriously.
Speaker 2:I think, um, I sometimes say that you get bored of like talking about it, like kind of talking about diversity, and then you kind of roll your eyes when you see the reports come out, because you it just seemed like an annual event. It's almost like Christmas, it's like you know it's gonna come around and it's going to be the usual. What can we do? And I'm like you asked this question last year. It's like you know, you know what needs to be done.
Speaker 1:You know what needs to be done, you're just not doing it. So, like what else? There's? There's no other conversations that need to be had, because people have already said, like this certain things need to be done. It's just that the people with the power to do it aren't doing it and don't want to do it. You know what I mean. So what else? What can I do as an author except continue to write my books and continue to, you know, promote other black books and books with, you know, people of color in it, but especially books with black heroines. Cause I think, as we've seen, you know, diversity is sort of a catch all term, but not everybody within that sort of, I guess, within that category is treated the same by a publisher, and maybe that's a difficult conversation to have. But I definitely think that, um, you know, when I put my energy into promoting diversity, I especially put extra energy on promoting books with black authors and black characters.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I saw it on Fred's. It might have been on Fred's. Yeah, it was last night and someone had posted and I couldn't work out whether the person who had posted I think they were black. But they were saying, and it was to do with, like I say, acting roles. But they were saying and it was to do with, like I say, acting roles, and they were basically saying you know that Black people shouldn't take on what is a traditional Right. Well, I can't get my eyes out.
Speaker 2:I shouldn't take on traditional, it's fine, it happens to be, all the same, and I looked at it and I just thought I don't know, I don't actually agree, because if you're able to, if you're able to play a role, then you should be able to step into that role and become that character, if that but, then I also understand the other side of it, which is, I'm thinking people, some people are saying in the comments that, well, you know, create more Black roles, but I don't think there needs to be like a complete you can't do this and you can't do that sort of thing, and I think sometimes you get that same argument with readers sometimes, when they say well, how can you have like a Black character as a heroine in a fantasy novel? And you're like well, why not? It's like it's fantasy.
Speaker 1:I hate telling Black people or anybody telling us that we can't do something. I hate the word can't because it and I often try to understand like where is that coming from? Is it is of malice? Is it coming from a place of not wanting to see Black people, period, because I think there are some people that just don't want to see Black protagonists in anything and they don't want to see Black heroes in fantasy, in romance, in horror, in books, in movies, in TV, and it's just no.
Speaker 1:Like I'm for, honestly, like I can sort of understand why some people would say, like I don't want to see a black actress take on a role that's not like a black character, only because I know that that black actress is going to get a lot of hate. Yeah, like what's going on with what went on with the Little Mermaid, what's happening now with, I think, how to Train your Dragon, et cetera, et cetera, but we'll get hate regardless. You know what I mean. Like even if we are playing a quote, unquote black role, whatever that means, we're still going to get hate, like we always get hate. So who cares?
Speaker 2:This is how I feel. I think this is why, when I looked at it, I was just like what? I think my immediate response was I do not have time for this, because this is just playing into a narrative that's being created and I think you should be doing everything you can to go against that narrative. Because when I think back to how I grew up and you know the books you saw on the shelves and who was on the covers of those books, and and you love the stories, of course you love the stories and you fall in love with the stories and you fall in love with characters, but irrespective of what colour you are, you you want to see yourself in some shape or form, even if you know you're watching Star Wars, you want to know that you can be. Well, for me, I want to be a stormtrooper, sure, but one who can aim correctly, not a badly aiming stormtrooper, but you know, I want to be a Jedi, right like why can't I be?
Speaker 1:exactly, yeah, and you know we saw what happened with the acolyte. It's like I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want Black women to settle for being, for going back into the shadows, and I feel like we've always been in the shadows or we've always been placed in certain like roles and like, oh, you can't have that kind of role and sex especially, you know, colorism and futurism also plays a part, like dark skinned women, women with certain features, like mine, right, african and it's like, oh, you can't, you can't be a heroine or you can't be the love interest, you can't be this, and that I hate the word can't. So I say like, let them be angry, you know, but push us everywhere. And that's why, you know, I write the books that I write.
Speaker 1:And you know I was recently in a, you know, an emergency meeting with other Black female writers, authors of different genres and different markets, like young adult, middle grade. This was after Trump got reelected and, of course, there was an emergency meeting where we're all talking about like, what are we going to do now? Because, you know, with Trump being reelected, does this mean this is going to, there's going to be this more like conservative push against our books. You know, banning our books, our publisher is going to tighten their budget and say no more black books. Because, because we know that the pendulum swings right, like during the black lives matter protests in 2020, they're all for buying black books.
Speaker 1:And then, you know, they weren't when those books came out. They weren't like publicizing those books and things like that. And I think what I came away with that meeting with was you know what, even if it means that I'm no longer going to be in quote unquote traditional publishing, even if it means that I'm no longer going to be in quote unquote traditional publishing, even if it means that I'm no longer going to be publishing my books through the traditional means, I'm still going to find a way to tell my stories, and those stories are going to have Black people in it especially. They're going to have Black heroines in it, come hell or high water, water, and it will find the people who need those stories.
Speaker 2:You know the interesting thing about I say the Trump and I've anyone who follows me on social media or just knows me personally.
Speaker 2:I've been well into my news detox like yeah, like I don't want to hear about it, I'm like I'm not interested, just let me just carry on with my life. But you know, you're talking about having a meeting with other black female writers and I'm saying funny Funny's not the right word, but it wasn't just contained in. Just I'll say, just like North America and character, I had the same meeting with other black female writers and that's in England, that's in the UK, black female writers, and that's it. And that's in England, that's in the UK.
Speaker 2:And you wouldn't think whatever goes on over there, it's not really going to affect us in that way, but it does because you because I think as a black person you don't just take on what happens to you personally. It's like you kind of take it on universally, like your, whatever your struggles are across across the ocean. It's like you take it on because you can see how it affects you. So we had this, we had the same meeting, because in a sense, you can't, as well as protecting your work, you have to protect yourself, and when it feels like kind of everyone's against you, you have to do that together yeah, I mean, I think that the struggles I mean I'm Canadian, so what was happening in America?
Speaker 1:I mean it's still. There are some people that talk to me were like, well, this is an American issue, why are you worried, you know? But but this has to do with the entire world. What happens to America is, and make possible certain things in the entire world and and you know, like I'm in my news, detox as well, but unfortunately still, you know, things filter through and I heard like oh, trump was musing about, uh, making canada the 51st state, and I was like, okay, whatever, and I went back to watching my anime right.
Speaker 2:I saw that this morning and I was the same thing. I was like you've got some. I did not have time for this and we had a similar story, but it was to do with Elon Musk. Um, and I'm doing something with one of our. I say I'm not my politician, one of the politicians over here and getting involved and I just thought, no, no, just let me just. Yeah, cut my comics.
Speaker 1:I have comics let me just I'm done, I'm done. But it's like we all, we all felt it. I think, yeah, I, I think, especially black women. That's why I'm like black women across the diaspora and on the continent I know that, like this year especially feels like there's been an increase of like us versus them in different places, like oh, you're, you're canadian or you're, you're from the uk. Therefore, you don't understand this experience and that experience and there's been like some diaspora, wars and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But I, I always say you know what we're black women share like there are differences absolutely in our experiences, in our material realities, in our lived realities, but there are things that we all share. As Black women, we all share a specific condition and that's why we all felt it. You know, when Trump was reelected again, I, I, that's I can't even describe how I felt. That's why I was like no more news, no more anything, I'm done, I'm tired. And that's me in Canada, it's you in the UK, it's people, it's black women in America, it's black women on the continent, in Caribbean, so on, so forth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's like I'm not surprised that everybody was having their own meetings, like across the world you, just you, you didn't think that would have been the outcome and in a weird way I'm not saying it's not good, because it's definitely not good, but it happened but but in a weird way, it's good that we ended up being connected in a completely different way and also recognizing the things that we share, but also the ways in which we are so different and also the way in which our creativity expands into so many different things, which is why I always say, like a broken record, like we're not just one story and that we can tell, we can tell and write more than one kind of story.
Speaker 2:So when I see you oh, this is what. I saw you on Fred's and I saw your book cover and I'm like, oh my god. No, it's amazing because, god, if I have been I'm saying like 12 or 13, growing up and I saw that on the shelves this book cover, bright red, of this black young woman on there as a queen I would have been like, oh my god, let me just, I don't even care what it's about, let me just, let me buy it, let me persuade my parents to buy it because I want to read it.
Speaker 1:And I think that's what, if that's what's been like a good moment, seeing what everyone's capable of doing absolutely, you know, the queen spade again, like it's, it's those connectionsetta who was this Nigerian Yoruba girl, a princess, who was taken to Britain in the 19th century to be like a present for Queen Victoria, yeah, and was her sort of goddaughter. And there's so much of me in this in that, like this is somebody from my tribe, from my, you know, from my ethnicity, and at the same time, like it's connecting British history.
Speaker 1:Of course Canada is also, like it's, part of the British Commonwealth and all that stuff and I have family in Britain and it's like these stories we don't hear about them. We don't hear about them at all. I never knew.
Speaker 2:No, but I'm saying we don't hear about those stories. I mean, I knew about her and I don't know if it was my dad who told me. My dad's very good, like that. But but then you know, when you talk about you know, you being Nigerian, I'm being Grenadian and like our histories in itself, they're so rich with story, with storytelling. Absolutely so, there are, you know, there are story. You're constantly surrounded by stories, like at home, from your family, friends or family, and then it's a strange thing to leave your house and it's weird. Obviously it's always used to say to people it's like you go into your house and I go back into my house and I step into Grenada because now, that's, that's your family, and it's weird to leave that, leave that comfort zone and step back out and you're like, oh, you're not, you're not seeing yourself and you're not hearing fun. Not, you know, not the trauma, I call them the trauma stories, not hearing the fun stories like you want to hear about a little black boy jumping on the dragon, I mean.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, my first book series, the effigy series, is basically like a play on sailor moon or the win Club. If you're into that kind of thing, you know it's like, yeah, why can't a black girl, just, you know, have powers and have fun and be in this sort of like epic adventure? And you know, my second book series was Simon and Schuster. The Bones of Ruin trilogy was about an African tightrope dancer in 19th century and she had, like it was kind of like X-Men. They all had powers and that doesn't mean that like I do talk about certain things you know, like colonialism and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But it's also this big, you know, comic book, like epic adventure, you know, and the Queen's Spade which is coming out January 14th. It's not fantasy, it's, you know, a thriller, a historical thriller. But it's very much like, if you're into Bridgerton, if you're into, you know, just revenge thrillers, if you're into like just a Black villainess owning her power and like taking revenge on people, it's just a lot of fun. You know, like there's so many different kinds of stories that Black women can be in, so I want to just continue to find a multitude of stories that we can be and just put it out there and again. It may be, you know, a book that you can find on the shelf, or it may be something that's self-published. You can buy it, you know, online, you know or it could be something that I just put up for free, but I'm going to continue to put my stories out there when did you realize that you wanted to write and that you needed to write?
Speaker 2:because I think we can have an idea like oh, I enjoy doing this, I enjoy the storytelling, but I think there's a switch to that moment of no, I need to be writing and telling these stories and somehow getting them out there oh man, yeah, I mean, I've been writing stories since I was a little kid, since I was like three or four years old.
Speaker 1:I've been telling stories because I have two older brothers who are really into like comic books. I think I became into comic books like dc marvel, that kind of thing because of them and, um, I was introduced to stuff like anime and manga because of them as well, and video games, and I just realized that there's so many different types of stories that you can tell. You know, and I was, I was seeing different kinds of stories from different kinds of cultures. You know what I mean, and I was like well.
Speaker 1:I want to do. I want to do something like that, I want to tell stories like that, but of course, like I don't think I really got a sense that I could really actually sit down and write a book until I was confident enough to do so. And that's when, you know, I started university and I started like really studying literature and not seeing the kind of books that I wanted to see. You know I was, I was learning like the canon and Shakespeare and you know American authors and Canadian authors and really great stuff right Like from from the literary giants, toni Morrison and things like that. And it's like I wanted to see again like Black Girls Going on adventures and I want to see like Winx Club type stuff you know what I mean and Sailor Moon and Final Fantasy and this and that. So I was like, okay, if I can't find these books then I have to write them.
Speaker 2:You know what I love about this conversation is that you know, like growing up I feel like similar to you in a sense. I got two brothers, even though I'm the oldest, and we got our comic book. I say addiction, like our dad and our dad and our uncle, and I remember like we'll go to our uncle's house and he would have he'll be collecting the comics weekly, so we'll just be going through his comics and then when he was, I don't know why, when he was getting rid of them, he gave them all to us. And you know, I buy comics, I love, I love comics and I think at one point I thought I must have been the only black British girl and it's weird, I've come in my 40s and it's only in my 40s. I'm saying there's so many of us, there's so many of us, we just love that whole genre.
Speaker 2:And I always used to say to people for some time, nothing was the perception, it was childish and I'm like comic books, anime, manga. It said it's in no degree is it childish. And I said, if you want to know how I always say if you want to know how to tell a story, how to maintain a story, the continuity of a story over a period of time and also how to develop characters, because you can have such amazing character transformations from someone who said their little, weakling, you know, scared of their own shadow, who take on this enormous power. So if you want to see that, I was like comics is one of the best ways, one of the best mediums to learn about that absolutely.
Speaker 1:I learned a lot, you know, um, in terms of maintaining a fan base over that long period of time. Yeah, you know, it's like, well, they're doing something right because you know, when you take a look at um, what's what's selling right now in american publishing manga and anime, or manga and graphic novels which would be considered childish, and so on and so forth is actually selling more than I think, like young adult, it's selling more than adult, selling more than, you know, middle grade books and so on and so forth. So it's like they have to be doing something right.
Speaker 1:And when I think about like the, the manga that shaped me is like you can't read something like hunter hunter you know what I mean or even something like like with real emotional resonance, and say like, oh, that's childish it's not, I'm in Saigon no, no, no, like I can.
Speaker 1:I can name like so many, but it's like even something that you consider to be childish, like oh, naruto and he's like. You read the whole thing, read the manga from beginning to end. You read some of those like moments where characters are dying or something like huge, just going like emotional moments.
Speaker 2:It's like I'm not even seeing that in some a so-called adult no, it's so true, one of my good friends, she's she whatsapped me like I'll say, middle of the night and I'm like what's happened? It's like, oh god, I've forgotten the name now, not Naruto, the other one, jujutsu Kaisen, kaisen, right. And she's like I can't believe I've come to the end of it and I'm like you need to like take control of yourself. But the emotion, but I you know I'm joking, but I understand it because you know our, you know our good stories they can create that emotion and it says you're right. Sometimes you're like you go through a whole book, you go through 350 pages of a novel. You're like I was looking for something. You didn't give me anything and I feel cheated at the end of it there's so many different ways.
Speaker 1:There really is um, so many different ways to tell a story and that's why, like, when I say like, oh, like people ask me what, what inspired you to write, it's like yeah, yeah, there are books. There are books that inspired me to write, like Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson series. Yeah, you know, I I think JK Rowling is very problematic, but I will admit that the Harry Potter series like had me in a death grip when I was a kid. It is what it is.
Speaker 1:It did inspire me to write A problematic series, a problematic author, but that series did. I had me in a death grip when I was a kid, before I knew about it.
Speaker 2:The thing, it didn't even just have kids in like in a death grip, it had adults and you know that going into her and I hate saying that because it sounds like I'm dismissing it and I'm not dismissing her issues or her stance, I should say her stance on things. I'm not dismissing that at all. But she said she had children in a death grip and she had adults in the death grip to the point where the publishers had to release. I remember, because I was working in a bookshop at the time, they had to release um, harry Potter with adult covers on it. So it was just black, black and white of a train and you'd have the font. So adults would feel, because you know this is pre-kindle. So I don't feel comfortable sitting on the train and the bus reading the book and not have someone sitting opposite them wondering why are you reading a children's book? And I think you know it'd be amazing to have like, not not just a country, a nation, like the whole world, it was in your world really yeah it was the whole world.
Speaker 1:So I mean, I mean, like I, I absolutely was inspired to write by, you know, those book series and the babysitter's club and sweet valia high and all kinds of like books, but at the same time, I was also inspired by non-literary mediums.
Speaker 1:you know what I mean. Like I was inspired by video games, I was inspired by movies. There's so many inspired by movies. There's so many ways, there's so many ways to tell a story and I think, instead of like when people dismiss certain things, like oh, dismiss anime is, oh, you're, you're a weeb, or that's, that's geeky, or this is childish and stuff like that, you're missing out on a learning experience of how to tell stories, how to write really great characters, how to give them a great emotional arc, how to have, you know, an immense world building, like the stuff that I'm usually into has crazy good world building and it's like, wow, how did they do that? How did they accomplish creating this world that you can just immerse yourself in?
Speaker 2:were you ever daunted by that, by the by the world building when you're writing your fantasy books? Because when you're outside looking in, so when I'm reading fantasy stuff or sci-fi stuff and I'm looking, I'm like, oh my god, the world build to me. It's so vast and you know, it's every small detail to even what you may describe to call a type of tree, like. Everything is so well thought out and I think that can be a dawn. It could be a daunting thing to grasp when you're outside looking in, thinking I want to write fantasy. Did you ever have that? Or you just quite easy going in?
Speaker 1:I mean, world building is very difficult. It's tough and you know I always wrote. I wrote fantasy from the beginning. The Queen's Bait is the only non-fantasy book that I've written, but it still requires a lot of research, right, because it's sort of historical. So there's a kind of world building. You need to understand like what was the world like in 19th century London, but there's some references there. Building you need to understand like what was the world like in 19th century London, but there's some references there. When you're writing fantasy, you're creating your own world, so it can be daunting because you want it to still make sense. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean there aren't like internal rules, right. So, for example, if who's that guy in game of thrones? Uh, john snow, right?
Speaker 2:it's just no, I didn't even know you were thinking about john snow, but when you say, I'm like, why would you?
Speaker 1:struggle with john snow. It was like I don't know. I think I, because of that um, that ending and how it ended, I just kind of blocked it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't talk about that. But yeah, we don't talk about it. But let me talk about it for a bit. It's like it does know, like grew angel wings, you know, in the series finale. I mean it would be probably one of the less ridiculous things to happen that episode, but at the same time it's like you would still be like of the less ridiculous things to happen that. At the same time it's like you would still be like wait a minute. Why is that happening? You feel cheated because it's not in the rules of the world that has been established that someone can just grow angel wings and fly away.
Speaker 1:So it's like the reader. The reader is also paying attention to your world building. They're paying attention to the rules that you've set up and if you break your own rules, they'll feel cheated. They'll feel like what's going on, they'll feel like they've been talked down to and that breaks the immersion. They no longer feel like they're in this world, the immersion right. They no longer feel like they're in this world. They're suddenly taken out of the world that you've created. So it's like as a fantasy writer, you do have to create a world that has its own internal logic and that can be tough. You got to put a lot of work into it, but it can also be really fun and rewarding because you know the sky is really the limit in terms of like where you're getting your inspiration from and you know how you see yourself in that world.
Speaker 2:As a black girl, you know you know, because you could say, because you have been writing fantasy in the past and now you're moving on to historical fiction. Do you feel that? And I'm saying because I will say this there's not a lot of us who write, well, you don't see us. But the thing is actually no, that's wrong. We are writing is whether we're visible. I think that's the difference. But did you ever find think it would? Did you know it would be a challenge? Or are you just I'm just going to write and just see what happens. I don't care about how it may look on the outside and how many few of us seem to be visible.
Speaker 1:I knew it would be a challenge from the beginning. Um, I mean, unfortunately there are. Just. I mean, when I started, there weren't as many of us right like I started writing. I published my first book in 2014 and the main character was meant to be black and they put a white girl on the cover, right? No? They did yeah, yeah, because you know this whole idea. Like black girls, don't sell on the cover and that.
Speaker 2:But you know, sorry, sorry to cut you, but I'm like there's only 20. You're not talking, but I'm like there's only 20. You're not talking about I was like 1986. That was 10 years ago no 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I was so upset. I was so upset, but it really wasn't that long.
Speaker 2:Pardon, I said, but you would be, it would be. There's no way that you wouldn't be upset to see the character that you created just replaced with what's called an acceptable I'm doing the air quotes, but an acceptable image, right.
Speaker 1:It's like a rejection of you, it is a complete rejection of me, and it really played head games with me.
Speaker 1:So it's like because, like you know, I also tried to publish a book at one point and they were like, oh, I don't understand why there's why the heroine is black if the story isn't black. You know what I mean. Like this was just about a fantasy story of a young black girl going on an adventure, and I guess they felt like they didn't understand why the main character had to be black if the story wasn't about racism or the story, you know, didn't have to do with what they saw as black issues. Mind you, like most majority, vast majority of the people in the publishing industry are white. So what they think is a black story is probably like something like police brutality. You know, racial injustice. Um, you know, if it's fantasy, it has to be afrocentric fantasy, like specifically to do with maybe nigerian or whatever kind of like mythology and stuff like that. It can't just be like a you, a black girl, with a werewolf or something like that. It has to be. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So there there are so many barriers involved and it really played head games with me until one day I said you know what, screw it, I'm going to write what I want to write. And you know, two of those book series got published and I'm, you know, in 2024, post Trump reelection. I'm like, okay, a lot of these white editors and agents who said that they've, they've, you know, had a come to Jesus moment and they're all for you know, like we're, we're all for diversity now, like they may end up going back to the old days of, oh, we can't do diversity, so let's just go back to, like, white girls and pretty, pretty white girls with dresses on the covers, and it's like you know what you do, whatever you want to do, I'm going to keep writing my black girls and I don't care.
Speaker 2:I, you know, yeah, you can see me, you can see me fidgeting because I'm getting irritated and I'm like no, because it's so. You know anyone listening to us, or when they do listen to us, I'm sure they're going to be thinking well, that is it. It's so ridiculous, it's so ridiculous. And then, and then it, it will make sense as to why. You know the beginning of this conversation.
Speaker 2:I was talking about the diversity report that came out in publishing. Because you hear the, you know what I'm saying, the issue. You're like oh, there's, there's not enough, there's not enough stories, there's not enough. Um, black editors, there's not this, there's not that. But when you the opportunity is presented to you, fully formed, you know, you have your offer, you have your black, you have, you have your stories, and I'm going to say black stories. But you have your stories with with black characters, front, you know, up, front and center.
Speaker 2:But then you're saying, oh no, it doesn't fit into what your idea of blackness is right. And I don't understand why blackness needs to equate to suffering. Why can't? I'm going back to my Jedi, because I want to, I wouldn't mind, but why can't it equate to being a Jedi or a poorly aiming stormtrooper like why, why and it? You just think 20, whether it's 2014, and you said, fast, you know, fast track to now, present day, 2024, and people are banning books. You said, fast, you know, fast track to now, present day, 2024, and people are banning books left, right and center. You know just what's wrong with people just publish the stories, that's why exactly?
Speaker 1:that's why I say like this you know it's nonsense when you know it's the same publishers that are like we don't know what to do. And it's like you have the power. You, if you want to buy books from black authors, you can do that. If you want to buy books about black people, you can do that. If you want to not just buy those books but really publicize them and market them to a wide audience and put your money where your mouth is, you can do that. You're just choosing not to do it.
Speaker 1:So at this point it's kind of like you know, it's just we're going around in circles because the gatekeepers know exactly what they can do and they don't want to do it. So it's no longer about like trying to figure out what we can, what they can do. They've already decided they're going to do what they want to do. So I'm going to do what I want to do, which is I'm going to continue to write my books and, however I want to publish them, I'm going to publish them. You know, if, if a trade publisher does not want to buy it, then you know, maybe an indie publisher will, will, or maybe I'll self-publish it, maybe I'll put it up on a website, like there's so many ways to tell a story. Maybe I'll make a podcast.
Speaker 2:Listeners. It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. Yeah, I think that's the beauty of where we are now, because there are so many options open to and I'm not just saying us as in black authors, I mean to like everybody, white, black, however you identify there are so many options available to you. So, traditional publishing you feel as though the doors are closed because they may, they don't want to, and it's not even buy your story because you know they can buy your story. They can buy, you know, give you the two book deal, whatever give you, give you an amazing advance. They can give you all of that, but it means nothing if they're not going to put the work into promoting you and making you visible.
Speaker 2:So they can do all that, but right now you can look at it and be like you know what. No, I'm going to move away from that and I'm going to say try a smaller publisher or I can self-publish. Self-publishing is not an easy option at all. It takes hard work, but it's still an option open to you, right absolutely like.
Speaker 1:I don't think any of these options are easy. Um, I mean, first of all, writing itself is hard, and I think you know if you want to self-publish, you have to be very entrepreneurial, you have to be, like, on top of things, you have to know how to build your audience. There's so many different things that you have to pay for, um, and there are different struggles when it comes to trade publishing or when it comes to being an indie publisher, if you want to make your own podcast, if you want to make your own website and upload things for free, like, there's always going to be struggles, but you know, at the very least in this current era, we have so many different options and hopefully, there are people that are willing to like share advice, and that's one thing that, like, I'm really thankful for, because it's not a guarantee.
Speaker 1:I think that there are some authors, especially authors, who tend to be like the big, really big best-selling authors. I don't know, like what is going on, but I feel like sometimes they they don't want to help or like I don't know if I should say this, but I find that, like, some black big best-selling authors are like no, I got mine. You know what I mean. Like I got mine, I don't really feel the need to like give you a hand up or like give you advice, etc. Etc. Most of the help that I've gotten is from, like, in terms of best-selling authors, have been people like that weren't black, which is like a weird like I'm still trying to like parse through that whereas, like, the black people that have helped me have often been, like you know, mid-list authors, authors who are starting out, or authors who maybe aren't big, massive names stuff like that I think I can only pull it down to, and I don't think it even is restricted to just be, you know, just to like publishing and being an author.
Speaker 2:But you can look at any profession, any, I mean any profession in the world and you'll always I think you'll always find someone who's successful, and I think there's a need to feel like they need to protect their space and their position. Yeah, and they, yeah, it's like they've just thought that you know there's not enough room and there's more than enough room.
Speaker 1:You're gonna be fine it reminds me a lot of like Gabrielle Union, the actress. She, I think a few years ago, gave a um interview okay, you know what I'm talking about which was like how Hollywood made her feel like she, I think a few years ago, gave a interview Okay, you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how Hollywood made her feel like she had to compete against every other Black actress for like a spot at the table, like to be the one, the top Black actress.
Speaker 1:And it's kind of like top black actresses sometimes made to feel like they're pitted against each other and they have to like fight over you know scraps to get that seat at the table and like, once you're at that really, really, really high level, you may want to, instead of helping more people come up to your level, um, it's more like okay, I'm to burn the bridge behind me so that I'll be like the token, you know top black, you know actress. And unfortunately there is that kind of dynamic also happening in publishing where you'll have not everybody but you'll have like some black authors that are like, well, I got mine, like I got mine, like I got mine. So I don't really know like what your problem is, I don't really care, et cetera, et cetera. And it's so unfortunate, but that's why every single time there is an author, regardless of their race, sexuality, religion, blah, blah, blah. Any author that has given me advice I've said to myself like that's a real one.
Speaker 1:That's a real, because that's somebody that is able to pay it forward and that wants to see more black girls in the industry and that actually cares about, like you know, getting just more faces and like helping people who need it. So, like, if you're starting on your self-publishing journey, maybe there are people that can say like, oh, this is what I did. Here are some people that you can reach out to to help and give you advice If you're starting on your trade publishing journey. There are people that can say like, oh, this is a good agent. Oh, you shouldn't go to that, that agent. Or here are some things that you should negotiate for this and that that's really helpful. Um, or even people that will say like, oh, I'll do an event with you, you know, and I'll get get you more visibility so I always feel so yeah, no, I.
Speaker 1:I was just gonna finish off by saying like that's endlessly. I've always been endlessly grateful for those people, and it's unfortunate that there's some people that are like no, I got mine.
Speaker 2:So like screw you, you're on your own but I, honestly, I always feel that you have nothing to lose by paying it forward. You have nothing to lose by saying to someone oh, like me, like people I've had um, you know authors who want to submit, email me and go. Will you mind looking at my submission now? I might, sorry, my cover letter. I'm like I'm not losing anything by spending. Okay, I may lose time. I'm like god, I need to be editing, but I'm not really losing anything in the long run by looking at someone's cover letter and saying, no, you should do a, b and c and get rid of this paragraph and make sure you send it to the right person. I'm not losing anything from that. In fact, I said I will gain because hopefully in the future they'll get signed on, they will get their publishing done and then I will see them rightly claiming their space and I and if they appear in the bestsellers charts with a success, I'm going to applaud them because that's what you want. I'm not going to lose anything from that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I feel chills, Like when somebody comes up to me and say like, oh, you inspired me to do this and that, like I feel chills because it's like, wow, something that I did matters, like I did something that mattered to somebody else. And when somebody comes up to me ask me like questions, like absolutely I want to help. Like I've been um mentoring and doing workshops in my sort of local community and I do workshops, um, especially for people. We call it in Canada K to 12, so it's like kindergarten schools, like you know, um, oh, the babies, yeah, the babies, the babies to grade 12, so about, like, when you're about to leave high school and stuff like that. And also, like I teach creative writing at a university level.
Speaker 1:So I'm always like, like you know people that I see that really have what it takes.
Speaker 1:I'm like here, like you know my email address, like if you have any questions, email me.
Speaker 1:I can, you know, show you the ropes in terms of you know, getting an agent, how to get an agent can help you craft your query letter and things like that can tell you like query letter and things like that can tell you like who, which editors are looking for which kind of stories and that this and that.
Speaker 1:But paying a forward is literally like what I do as a profession, but it also like just fills me with so much joy. So when I'm kind of like looking for help and I'm kind of like looking for help and I'm like you know, is there somebody that can give me some advice? And if somebody is like no, figure it out by yourself, or sorry, I'm too busy, and the stuff like that, I'm like, oh okay, like I don't like you know that person can do whatever they want. I can't control what other people do, but it is kind of like, kind of sad where it's like it is sad where I say, like majority of the biggest authors, like really big authors that have helped me, um, majority of them have been non-black, and I'm just trying, uh, trying to figure that out, where I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know. So it's a weird thing because it's like so you're fighting against, you're fighting against an establishment. Then you feel like you're fighting against your own people. You're like, for god's sake, I know what's wrong with people guys. Just come together.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, it's something that I actually said in like a meeting that I had, like that meeting that I talked about, where we were in like with other black authors, and I felt like maybe I'm alone in this, because I did get some pushback by a couple of people, but I was like you know, if we are upset about what traditional publishing and their white gatekeepers are going to do, I'm like, take a look at everybody in this chat. Right now, we can create our own readership. There's so much that we can create ourselves without having to constantly beg for approval from this white trade publishing system. We can create our own system. We can create our own leadership.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean Always, always, find the pushback always comes from people who are scared of rocking the boat Because again it comes to, I need to protect my position. Whatever I've got, no matter how small it is, I need to protect it, need to protect it. You know when you're talking about. You know you cross the bridge and you burn it down. I don't know why. In my head, my analogy was it's a zombie apocalypse and you're running to the safe house and you're like no, I have locked the door, barriers are down. Exactly, I go to extremes. Yours is a bridge, mine is a zombie apocalypse, but I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that because it does kind of feel like, okay, we're entering like the zombie apocalypse, like era. I don't know if you saw like yesterday. I don't know when this episode is going to be airing, but it was literally yesterday or maybe it was on Monday. I can't know when this episode is going to be airing, but it was literally yesterday or maybe it was on Monday, I can't remember. No, it was Tuesday. Um, that Korea became a dictatorship again for the first time in 60 years oh, when the president or Prime Minister, he made martial law and the people were like what are you talking?
Speaker 1:about exactly. It was like for two hours or three hours. I'm like what is going on in the world? I'm like the world is falling apart. I just heard something crazy went on like in France not too long ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they did. They got rid of Michael Barney. I didn't realize this was going to be a political episode.
Speaker 1:But I was just saying the kind of world that we're entering into, we can't afford to be like, well, I got mine, so screw you, like we have, like we're in this together, especially if we want Black stories and like Black storytelling to survive in this current era.
Speaker 2:It's all hands on deck you know, I was talking about the zombie apocalypse and the world just being crazy. My brother one of my brother who lives in Japan with his kid he sent. He sent us a bunch of videos of the kids, and the youngest one is two, and they got this playground in Japan. And so little Tato, my two year old nephew, he's running around, he's, he's having the best time of his life in this playground in Japan. And so little Taito, my two-year-old nephew, he's running around, he's, he's having the best time of his life in this playground. They got like I can only describe it like smoke coming out of the ground and it's completely missing. You can barely see him. But that's the thing, that's what they do in the playground and the kids love it. And my, I can hear my brother saying where is he? Where is he? And then you see my little nephew like running and out of shot and suddenly he appeared and all of a sudden I heard my brother say it's like Silent Hill and I just thought you sent my two-year-old nephew out into a zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 2:But you need, I feel like you need those moments in life. But also you need those moments in the literature, the books you consume. You know the films you consume and you need to be able to feel free to create those, those moments. So you need to be free and happy to create your books and tell the stories the way that you want to tell them and and for universally, for people you know, like me, look at them, be like laughing or crying or saying I too, I too, want to ride a spaceship. You know you need all of those moments and it shouldn't be, I don't know, restricted by your ethnicity absolutely that's the most, that's that's what makes.
Speaker 2:That's what makes gives us those roll the eyes moments and give it a side eye and just think you get as my father's friend always says to me, you get very militant. I said it's not even about getting militant, you're just like. You just want to be, yeah, it's a frustration. I think that's what you're right it's more frustration people don't exactly.
Speaker 1:I hate the word can't. I say it again and again because you know, like you mentioned, you had a brother in japan. I went to japan not recently, like five years ago. I loved it. It was like finally I'm here to the place that basically, like inspired my storytelling.
Speaker 1:Because I, I truly say, if it weren't for japanese storytelling, if it weren't for anime, manga, japanese video, japanese video games like Final Fantasy, kingdom Hearts, that kind of thing, I wouldn't be the writer I am today. But it also creates like, if I could live in Japan, I think I would. But that's part of the reason why I'm so frustrated. When people tell me, no, these are the type of stories that you can write, it's like no, I want to write like a Naruto or a Jujutsu Kaisen or a Car Capture Sakura, but just with a Black girl as a lead. Why can't I do that? Like that's what I, that's what I grew up wanting to do, that's what I grew up being, you know, being inspired by. So when it's like the American industry is like oh no, we don't want those stories from you, it's just so incredibly frustrating. That's why you just gotta write what you want to write and find your audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're gonna find them just tell, just tell your stories. Just, I remember, um, I was mentoring someone I can't remember what genre book they were writing but they emailed me and they said is it okay, if anything? It was weird being like you shouldn't, don't, you don't need to ask for permission, but they were asking if it was okay for their character to be eaten. It was a set and I'm sure it was okay for them to be eating plantain and I was like, if that's what your character likes, if that's what they want to and I'm saying plantain, not plantain, it's plantain to me but if that's what your character likes and that fits whatever it is is going on with that in that part of the story then just tell it. If your character wants to eat fish and chips, then have them do it. Don't feel like you need to make your character fit a certain idea of what you know what they should be doing, should not be doing. Just do whatever you need to do. It's your story right.
Speaker 1:I think in general, black women, just in all spaces of our lives, are so restricted there's, and sometimes we do it to each other as well, like sometimes Black communities do it to each other and say like oh, you know, your identity has to be this. You know you shouldn't be into these kinds of things, like you shouldn't be into you know, comic books. You shouldn't listen to this kind of music. I just did my Spotify rap and I think Utada Hikaru music. I just did my Spotify rap and I think Tata Hikaru is my like number one.
Speaker 2:she's my number one artist, spotify, the Spotify rap I you know I see so many jokes about it and it's like we're not judging you and you're like yeah, no, you are judging me.
Speaker 2:I feel like my Spotify, what I choose to listen to, especially when I write, because I have a whole writing playlist and and I cannot. When I was going through that, going through my Spotify rap, and it was like this is what you're listening to, in November and I was like, yeah, because I was writing, yeah, I could feel like my whole musical taste just completely changed. And then, yeah, it's like don't judge me, but I feel as though you're judging me exactly like I think that black girls, be yourselves, be yourselves everyone be yourself yeah, everyone, but by I say this message like everybody, be yourselves.
Speaker 1:But I say this message especially to black women, because I do feel like there are you, you know so many, so many expectations into like, oh, the kind of music you should listen to, you should be into, the kind of like books that you should read, or even like the idea black, black people don't read books. What are you talking about? And it's like no, you be who you are, you write what you want to write and, um, we will, especially in this era where it seems like everybody wants to silence our voices. We're not going to be silenced.
Speaker 2:I see, you know, I see it myself and I try I do so much eye rolling if my eyes pop out my head one day. But you know, and you know, when we say about you know you're expected or people assuming going to write a certain amount, certain type of book. And it's not just with publishers, I see it with, I'll say, like with some black bloggers and book clubs and you know stuff you see online. I'm like why is that all you're promoting? Why is that what all you're putting your energy into? Can't you see? There's a variety. You're right. We're writing rewriting in every single genre possible and I feel like you should be doing a lot more to promote that, as opposed to reinforcing the viewpoint that there's only one type of story that can be written and be written well. So I have my. I have my own and I think I probably have my own frustrations as a black crime writer, because I did, um, I did a crime writer special for black history month. Um, because I was in.
Speaker 2:October and I did it and before, obviously, I was decide, trying to work out who's going to come on my podcast. I was putting together a list of black crime writers in the UK and I had like fifth, I'm sure it was like 15, and I'm thinking it can't just be 15, even with me included. And I emailed another writer and I said, have you got any more? And she gave me, I think, another three, and that's when I came up with the number 18. I'm like it can't just be 18 black writers of crime in the UK. That is just ridiculous.
Speaker 2:So I have my own frustrations with that, which is why I feel that certain that name in name, certain organizations and certain bloggers need to be doing a lot more, a lot better, because then they'll be the first ones. Are, you know, doing the post saying look at this, there's a lack of diversity, but you need to do your bit as well. Exactly, let me calm down. Let me ask you about your book, because that's what I think we need to talk about. I'm watching the time. I'm like, oh my god. But let's talk about Queen of Spades. How excited are you for Queen of Spades? And then you can tell the authors, you can tell the listeners of the conversation about queen of spades yes, so the queen spade is actually the queen spade sorry, queen spade.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I don't know why. I apologize. You just get. I just got carried away, the queen spade. That's what I have written down the queen right?
Speaker 1:no, it's completely fine. Um, the queen spade is published from, uh, harper collins and it's kind of like um, you know it's a historical revenge thriller, so it's kind of like queen charlotte, except if she's like out to kill everyone not kill, but just like destroy destroy.
Speaker 2:I don't know what's worse kill or destroy.
Speaker 1:It doesn't sound any better no, no, but that's kind of like what she, the main character, is, sarah forbes bonetta, the african goddaughter of me, of queen victoria, and you know she has endured so many injuries, humiliation, um, being this goddaughter, having to assimilate to this sort of elite British crown. You know this British society that she wants revenge against all the people who took her from her homeland and basically took her to London to be this, you know, pet, and this propaganda tool right For the crown, to sort of talk about like, oh, look how wonderful and altruistic and multicultural the British crown is, and like colonialism is good and imperialism is good, look how we can civilize the savage, and et cetera, et cetera. So it's like she's like, okay, bet, we're gonna like, go and get revenge against all these people who did this to me, took me away from my old life. So, um, it's, it's all about, um, you know, black female rage, but it's all about, like, you know, destroying the upper class, because for them, that kind of humiliation, that public humiliation, having your perfect little upper class life being torn asunder, um, having your reputation in tatters, all of that is so much worse than death. So that's kind of why she's scheming, um, because it would, it would be easy just to kill everybody off, but she's like, no, like I'm going to make you live in complete disgrace.
Speaker 1:So she's very much a schemer. Um, she's very much, you know, playing chess. Everybody else is playing checkers. She's out here, just you know, and, and there are complications, there's romantic complications. Um, the queen is out here, just you know, and there are complications, there's romantic complications. The queen is out here trying to marry her off and send her back to Lagos before she can cause any more ruckus in Britain, before she can finish her revenge, and back then. Of course, being a woman, someone, if the queen of England is going to marry you off to someone, you can't really say no, right. So she's on a timetable. She's like, okay, looking at a watch, like I got to destroy these people by like before my wedding day. But you know, there are guys that she actually does like and there are people that she's using and people that are trying to destroy her and like counter revenge. So it's just like this whole web of intrigue, of court intrigue and, um, bloody thriller, revenge, and it's a lot of fun and how is that a story that you do not want to read?
Speaker 2:you know, I was thinking right, when you know, when you was talking about her being a pet. Do you watch invincible?
Speaker 1:uh, I've heard of it.
Speaker 2:I've heard of yeah.
Speaker 1:I know you're gonna say it's.
Speaker 2:There's a scene when Omni-Man he said who said? He says to his son he's talking about his wife and and the son's like you know, how could you do this to us? How could you do used to your family, don't you love us? And he says to his son, yeah, like his wife, his wife, his child's mother. He's like, yeah, she, she was just, she's just a pet. And I remember that out the shock, if you saw the whatsapp messages that ran around our group, he called his wife a pet. It's like that outrage and the way he did it. So when you're talking about her being a pet, it's like how dare you reduce a human? Did it so when?
Speaker 1:you're talking about her being a pet. It's like how dare you Reduce a human being? One of my friends told me about that. She washes the shirt and I was like, ooh, I'm glad I never washed it.
Speaker 2:It's such a scene. Obviously it's so good you need to watch it. But that's what came into my head. I was like Omni-Man, just a, she's not gonna take that. She's no one's pet. Yeah, okay. So, sarah, your last set of questions are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:I'm definitely an introvert. You know. I gain more energy being by myself, but I know how to turn it on when I when I have to turn it on, you know like, when I'm in in a group of people, I know how to like talk and like, oh, you know, like I'll probably be the chattiest person there, but it does take a lot of energy out of me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does so what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most? And I feel like I have to caveat now by saying it can be a good or a bad experience because my mind automatically goes to like the bad stuff people doing a lot. Oh, my god, you want trauma. I'm like no, I don't need trauma. It can be a good thing. It can be a good challenge.
Speaker 1:I think writing my dissertation was a challenge. You know like I was writing about. You know black people and race and this and that colonialism did it, did it do, but it was. It took me five years to complete it, wow. And you know I had gone through a lot before then because you know, when I was growing up it was all about you had to be a medical doctor because, everybody sort of in our sort of group, like all of the fathers were doctors and they all expected their children to be doctors.
Speaker 1:So when I didn't make it into medical school I felt like such such a failure, you know. So I kept doing. You know, I tried being a lawyer. I took the LSAT. I didn't even want to be a lawyer but I was just like, okay, my parents' expectations, like what are their expectations for me? So I took the LSAT, I tried to get into pharmacy, I tried to do a bunch of things and I just ended up in English, because it all came down to what do you love to do? And I love to write and read. So I ended up just kind of following that path all the way to grad school, did my dissertation. It was a massive, you know, challenge, but by the end of it I think I found who it was that I wanted to be and I'm living that life now.
Speaker 2:So it's amazing how you can tie yourself up in knots trying to fit other people's expectations and you know in your heart, your hearts, of hearts deep down in your soul, to your feet, you know that's not who you are and who you're meant to be, but you tie yourself up in knots doing a little gymnastics, just trying to conform to someone else's expectations, and then, until you reach that moment of no, this, this, I'm wearing the wrong shoes.
Speaker 2:That's the only way I can equate it. You're wearing the wrong shoes, it doesn't fit, but you're a doctor, now they're very proud, they'll say my daughter's a doctor right, right.
Speaker 1:So I got there in the end, right, this is a different kind of doctor. You know, I'm still dealing with that whole thing of like expectations. You know, like in my culture it's like you've got to be married and have your first kid before you enter your thirties you know what I mean. And it's like there's still that expectation Like when are you going to get married? When are you going to get married? When are you going get married? When are you gonna get married? When are you gonna have a kid? Oh, and it's like I don't know if that's what I want. So I'm still like fighting against that in a way. But I know the more I hear from other people like you know what you just live how you want to live. Yeah, I think more the more courage I get.
Speaker 2:But I don't know there's no normal. I mean, that's the thing. That's the way you need to look at. Look at it. It's like what people think of is normal. There is no normal, so you shouldn't try and fit into what other people think is normal. We create our own. I don't know why I suddenly turned into a therapist, but we create our own norms. I'm sitting.
Speaker 1:I'm sitting down, I'm lying down on your um.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly you have to, because I just think it can be a miserable way to live if you're just trying to fit into what other people think you should be doing and how they think you should be, and there's so many people, you know, I don't. No one wants to have regrets in life and you know. Thank god you don't have to look back at yourself. You know you had, you have the books you've, you've written, you're doing the things that you want to do. But I understand, you know, if you're going to the weddings and the aunties are not even asking you about your book, you want them to say, oh, my god, how's your book going? You know what are you working on next? No, oh, where's your husband. Where's your husband Mildred?
Speaker 1:exactly. It's crazy. It's like no matter what you achieve, it's always going to be like. But where's your husband?
Speaker 2:ask them where theirs are because I'm sure there's a story there and they're not talking about it but a lot of people like they they have husbands and like they don't.
Speaker 1:Like none of them have good experiences this is what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:There's a, there's a story, and if you're not gonna tell you, so yeah, next time someone says that, if you feel brave enough in a Nigerian household. I don't know, I don't know why I'm running my mouth, because I probably would turn away too. Exactly okay, if Okay, if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:It would be um, don't listen to anybody Like, don't worry, you're on the right track. Just just live the life that you want to live and don't waste any time. Any emotion, feeling feeling bad or feeling ashamed because you're not living up to other people's definition of normal, because you're achieving great things.
Speaker 2:You know it's funny. I had an earlier conversation this morning yeah, cause I recorded a podcast this morning and I asked Chloe has asked the question what would you tell your 25 year old self? She said exactly the same thing. She'll tell her 25 years up. You know, keep, just keep going, just keep doing what you're doing, you're doing okay, and I thought that that's a good thing to hear at 25.
Speaker 1:I wish I had heard it, yeah, but I mean, if there's any 25 year olds listening right now like this is this, is it like I'm telling you don't, don't waste any time or emotions feeling ashamed because you feel like, oh, I should be doing this, other 25 year olds are doing this. Who cares what other 25 year olds are doing? You live your life exactly before we go.
Speaker 2:What's next for you? What are you working on next?
Speaker 1:well, I am working on the companion novel to the queen spade are you excited?
Speaker 1:yes, I can't give the um the title just yet, but, um, I'm really excited about the queen spade like coming out january 14th and then having a companion novel in 26 2026, so I'm happy about that. Um, I'm also working on um, a novel. That's kind of like ip work, which is like when people like it's not your property but you're kind of doing a story in somebody else's world, like a lot of people do it for comic books and things like that. So I'm writing about a book about a comic book black heroine named Livewire who is kind of like in the valiant comic universe yeah so cool.
Speaker 2:I think that's the cool.
Speaker 1:I think out of anything I'm like that's cool that's cool, I know, and I just saw the cover and I'm like, oh, she looks so like she looks preppy but powerful, like I'm happy about that. So that should be out in 2025 as well.
Speaker 2:So that is very cool.
Speaker 1:That is good to hear.
Speaker 2:All right, and finally, Sarah, where can I forgot to ask, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:So my website is wwwsarahrawleycom. That's wwwsarahrawleycom. I was on Twitter, but everybody knows what happened there, so I'm not really on twitter that much anymore, but I am on instagram at s underscore raleigh, and I'm on blue sky and threads so I'm following you on blue sky am I um? Are you, what are you?
Speaker 2:uh, you're on thread. I'm just nadine matheson on blue, on blue sky. I need to find. I'm sure I'm following you, if not, I will be.
Speaker 1:I see you right now, so I'm going to, oh, okay.
Speaker 2:I just couldn't remember. That is good to know. Make this moment well. Well, sarah Raleigh, it just leaves me to say thank you so much, and I really enjoyed our conversation, so thank you so much for being part of the conversation thank you so much for inviting me and I I really enjoyed this conversation as well and it was pretty therapeutic.
Speaker 1:So maybe you have a future in, you know, giving people. You know, I I always think that, like authors talking to each other and giving each other advice and just like just letting each other know, like hey, I've been there and this is how I'm feeling, it's really affirming. It's really affirming so you know, you're not alone and feeling what you're feeling. So very, very, um, thankful for.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadimappersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
