Josie Lloyd: Timeless Tales, Mix-Tapes and Midlife Marvels

What happens when a penniless writer from the 90s transforms into a celebrated author who masters the art of storytelling across genres? Josie Lloyd joins us to unravel her fascinating journey, from enjoying the wild ride of early media appearances to battling personal challenges that fuelled her creative spirit. With Josie by our side, we explore the ins and outs of the literary world, including the unexpected hilarity of public engagements and the solitary comfort of writing. We share laughs over leopard print boots and intriguing insights into the dynamics of writer partnerships that have shaped her successful career.

Josie and I also take a closer look at the shifting landscape of the publishing industry, the inspiration behind "Miss Beeton's Murder Agency," and we reminisce about the nostalgic charm of mixtapes and celebrate authentic portrayals of vibrant midlife women. 

Miss Beeton's Murder Agency 

Alice Beeton never anticipated finding herself single and childless past fifty.

A distant relative of the famous Mrs Beeton, Alice had once envisioned a perfect household of her own. Instead, she resides in her pristine flat in a rather shabby Kensington block, with Agatha, her brilliant, if overly protective, corgi-Jack Russell mix.

Alice runs the Good Housekeeping Management Agency, supplying discreet domestic staff to luxurious townhouses and grand country estates. When Camille Messent urgently needs a new housekeeper, Alice sends Enya, a bold young woman with stellar references and fluency in French.

But Alice's quiet New Year's Day is shattered when news breaks that Enya has been found dead. With the scruffy but intriguing Detective Rigby struggling to conduct a proper investigation, and the wealthy family closing ranks, Miss Beeton, along with her astute companion Agatha, takes it upon herself to crack the case.

After all, it takes an organised mind to solve a well-planned crime…

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Chapters

• 0:00 Authors Share Stories and Recommendations
• 11:54 Navigating Fame and Collaboration
• 15:33 Navigating Book Reviews and Validation
• 27:23 Navigating Publishing Industry Changes
• 33:45 Journey of Finding Identity Through Writing
• 45:52 From Historical Fiction to Cozy Crime"
• 51:33 Modern Cozy Mystery
• 57:02 Time Travel Rom-Com Success
• 1:05:02 Midlife Reflections and Authentic Characters

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I kind of thought it would always be like that, that it was going to. You know, people were just going to be throwing themselves at us, and then you realise actually that is quite a special experience.

Speaker 2: 0:09

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson, the podcast where authors share their stories and where we talk books, writing and everything in between. I do like saying that. I do like saying that because it is absolutely true. This is the podcast where authors and I just talk about everything and, as I always say, it's absolutely fine if we go off on a tangent. So how are you? Have you had a good week, and will you allow me to do something a little bit different this week? With my introduction, can I give you some recommendations? We all like a good recommendation, even though I do think there is far too much stuff on tv and it's not even like it's rubbish. There is so much good stuff. Every week there's something new being released. But can I tell you what I've recently enjoyed? The first up is Paradise. It's on Disney plus if you're in the UK, on Hulu. If you're in the States, I'm not sure where it is in the rest of the world. So I apologise to my listeners in Australia and Asia and South America and Africa. I apologise All in the rest of Europe. I don't know where else they're showing it, but Paradise stars Sterling K Brown and James Marsden, and all I'm going to say about it is that Sterling K Brown is the head of the president's secret service and James Marsden plays the president, and this isn't a spoiler. James Marsden's character the president is murdered, and all I'm going to say is that it's a murder mystery, thriller, kind of locked room scenario going on, and that's all I'm going to say about it. But you need to watch it because it's brilliant.

Speaker 2: 1:50

And I've just announced season two. And the next thing I'm going to recommend if you enjoy computer games and you enjoy short stories, then Secret Level on Amazon Prime is for you. It's so good. I think there are 13 episodes and they actually came out in December last year. So there are 13 episodes. I think the longest episode is about 14 minutes long. So it's a collection of animated standalone short stories and they're based on video games. So one is based on Warhammer, one is based on Dungeons and Dragons and there's another one that's based on Mega man and there's this one episode which I can only describe as a violent Pac-Man. You know the game Pac-Man. I loved Pac-Man when I was younger, but it's just yeah, I can't even describe it. It's just, it's off the chain, but I would recommend that you watch. It's amazing. Anyway, I'm going to get on with the show.

Speaker 2: 2:50

This week I'm in conversation with author Josie Lloyd, whose new novel, miss Beaton's Murder Agency, is out now, and can I just say that you can buy Josie Lloyd's book and actually all the books of all of my guests in my store on bookshoporg and the link for bookshoporg is in the show notes, and the link to support this podcast by buy me a cup of coffee is also in the show notes. And in our conversation, josie Lloyd and I talk about the journey from, in her words, clueless and penniless writer in the late 90s to stratospheric author, making friends with the editing process and how the stories we tell is how we make sense of the world. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Josie Lloyd, welcome to the Conversation.

Speaker 1: 3:45

Oh, it's absolutely delightful to be here. Thank you ever so much for having me on.

Speaker 2: 3:48

One of the main reasons why I was excited to have you here is like way back when in like I think it was either, I think it was 1996, I was working in books etc and that was my Saturday job when I was at uni and we had the proofs come in. So I'm unpacking the proofs and this copy of a book comes and I think it's like a green cover because I found it in my parents' house in Grenada and it was come together and I remember looking at it, thinking because I turned it front ways, then I turned it upside down. I'm like, oh, it's two stories and you could turn it both ways, yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:23

And now Well, I'll show you what it is, because I've dug it out. Last night I was I was, um lecturing at a writer's academy. This is it, that's it. That's what I've got. Um, yeah, it's. I mean, back in the day, I mean, this is just what a story there is with that one, because it was actually published. You would have received the proof, probably in 1998. It was published in February 1999. And there's quite a story behind this one.

Speaker 1: 4:57

So basically I was a penniless writer. I'd written my first book, it Could Be you, which was published by Orion and came out in 1997. And I'd given up my job to write a book and I was, honestly, completely clueless, no idea what I was talking about at all, like none. And I sent it into a friend of mine who did a bit of editing and she was working in Random House and it went up and up and up and then eventually she got it to an editor who said, well, this girl can write, but she needs an agent. So I sent it into Vivian Schuster in Curtis Brown on her recommendation and Emlyn, who was Vivian's assistant, was responsible for reading my book off the slush pile and he recommended to Viv that she saw me. Now I go into Haymarket in my high boots. You know wearing the leopard print boots back in the day.

Speaker 2: 5:48

They're back in fashion, hooray everything from the 90s is back.

Speaker 1: 5:52

I know I'm not, I'm wearing my leather, I'm not wearing my leopard print boots. Later I'm very, I'm very pleased with myself, um, and anyway. So off I go in to Curtis Brown and I'm sitting in Viv's office and I'm like so what do you do? Then she said, well, darling, darling, I'm an agent. She's a complete doyenne of publishing, she's got, she's Jenny Cooper's agent, she's Margaret Atwood's agent, she's kind of got all the big wigs. And she says, well, now, darling, I'll get you a deal. And, um, emlyn, make Josie a cup of tea. So that's when I met Emlyn and he was her assistant and he was also, he was working in Curtis Brown and he was Viv's assistant and um, johnny Geller's assistant and Johnny Geller's sort of now head of Curtis Brown. But anyway, he, um, he was also writing his second novel and finding it quite hard.

Speaker 1: 6:34

I was writing a book called my Life as a Waitress, by this point, um, my second book, and finding it quite hard to make ends meet. Anyway, we became sort of confidants and friends and had totally separate, you know social lives. He's slightly younger than me, which he's never, ever, let me forget. He's 20 months younger than me. You would think he was years younger than me the way he bangs on about it anyway. Um, so we became sort of confidants and we used to go and discuss our lives and what was going on, and we'd go out drinking in Soho and one night we got really drunk and we were laughing and we said we should write this stuff down because there was nothing for 20-somethings at that time. Nick was around, bridget Jones was just coming out. There was nothing about 20-something life. So he said right. So we were like laughing about it. And the next morning he rang me up and he said do you remember what we were talking about last night? I said, god, what did I say? You know that moment of like? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:27

I was in my flat, I was sort of into Portobello Road, and he he said you want to write this book together and I said yes, yes, let's do it. And so he went away and wrote this first chapter from this point of view of Jack, who is a real Jack the lad, and it's all the stories of all his mates, uh, and him, of all the kind of terrible things that 20-something boys do, and he finishes it on a cliffhanger at the point where Jack taps this girl on the shoulder in the nightclub. And so I had carte blanche to do anything. So I thought the chapter was really funny. This is actually before internet, so this is printed out chapters. He gave it to me, I read it on the bus, went home and I really immediately wanted to reply. He gave it to me, I read it on the bus, went home and I really immediately wanted to reply. So I responded with Amy and when we put the two chapters together we realised that we had like real comedy gold. It was something really fun and and so and so he gave the two chapters to the agents in Curtis Brown and was calling me, looking through the glass of their offices, going. I think. I think they're laughing and was calling me, looking through the glass of their offices going I think they're laughing, oh my God. But they said, right, brilliant, we're going to send it out to publishers on two chapters. So they sent it out just before Christmas and in January we had this book auction which just went nuts. And eventually we got this socking great deal with Random House to write two books together.

Speaker 1: 8:40

And immediately there was a photographer there from the Evening Standard Love bites in the very first chapter, terrible picture of me. My mum went oh, you look cross-eyed. And my mates went who the hell is Emlyn? What's going on with Emlyn anyway? So we had this kind of ridiculous thing where we were signed up to write two books together. We didn't have a plan, we had no, we got two chapters. We had no idea what was going to happen, but we just he wrote a chapter, then he would give it to me and I'd roll my sleeves up go, you can't do that to my character and then respond.

Speaker 1: 9:10

So it kind of grew organically and whilst we were writing we were you know, we're writing this warts and all story about 20 somethings. But we were having a very Victorian relationship of letters between us. So there was was nothing going on. Everyone was like, do not touch Emlyn with a barge pole, he is off limits, he is your writing partner. And it got to sort of the end of the writing and we'd sort of fallen for each other. And I was like, are we going to talk about this? And he was like, about what? And I went about us and he went absolutely not. No, I was like, oh, that went really badly. And then he came back and he said there's 10 really good reasons why we can't get together. And I stood up and kissed him and that was that been married for 25 years, three daughters later, 22 novels I mean we've not written them all together, but, um, that was the start.

Speaker 1: 9:58

So then Come Together came out in 1999 and we had to count out ourselves to the agents and publishers and say, well, actually we're together. And so when it came out, everyone thought it was about us. But it wasn't. So it was sort of written before us. So it was kind of a weird one, but it went bonkers. I mean we had a film made. It was number one for 10 weeks, it was uh, it was published in 26 languages. And now, all these years later, 25 years later, you know, our loft is still groaning with really random copies of like Japanese versions so it's quite funny because it I said I was in Grenada with my parents in the summer.

Speaker 2: 10:36

I always I was going to visit them and, um, and I can't remember whether it was before the hurricane, no, it must be before the hurricane. Here it might be actually after, because we were clearing up and I'd always send books over, because mum's always like send me books and send her books. So I must have sent a whole bunch of books like early on. Yeah, and I was going through the shelves and I was like, oh my god, I remember this because I think, come together, it just resonated so much because 1998 I would have been 21 so that yeah it was the right age, and I said it was so unique.

Speaker 2: 11:07

And I'm, you know, I'm working in the bookshop, I'm always seeing all these new books coming in and I'd never seen anything like it. So then, to fast forward all these years, I'm like, oh my god, and now we're here, and now we can talk about it yeah, yeah, so that's um, so I'll come on to it.

Speaker 1: 11:22

You know, when you ask me what I'm doing next, that will be.

Speaker 2: 11:24

That will be a very good end point, because there's some exciting news afoot on that front how did it feel to have like this crazy experience though we've come together for it to go stratospheric when you've had the experience of your first book?

Speaker 1: 11:40

oh well, I mean it was marvelous. But also I was completely green. I had no idea. I just thought that's how it would be, that I would be on the. You know there would be big telegraph articles there would be. We'd be on the front page of magazines, that we'd be on the. I mean there's some. Honestly, there are some hilarious, hilarious um footage from the time of us. Do you remember um? So uh, uh, do you remember the big breakfast? Yeah, johnny Vaughan and Kelly Brook.

Speaker 1: 12:07

I was Kelly Brook's first guest on Were you really? I was. I was her very first interview and I was on the bed with her in the house and Johnny was in the shed with Eminem talking about Come Together. So it was just really fun and she was just so beautiful and so gorgeous and she was kind of very green. She was like I'm so nervous. I was like, no, don't worry, it's gonna be fine. So we had this guy, but I just thought it was fine.

Speaker 1: 12:31

We went around, you know, we went all around Europe on really random radio shows in you know, odd places in Scandinavia and we went on a live show which was like Graham Norton in umand, and I tripped up on stage on live actually. And then, and this guy was like so, jesse, what you do, you know, you get you, you go, you get out of bed, you have a bit of sex, you want a chapter. So it was hilarious, so it was quite an eye-opener, um, super fun, because we were just in a new relationship, so it was great and I kind of thought it would always be like that, that it was gonna. You know, people were just gonna be throwing themselves at us and then you realize, actually that is quite a special experience and I'm quite it's been a really lovely thing to have experienced that young, because, um, because now I've written lots of books and I've had lots of different book journeys and I've always kind of written because I really love writing, not because I've wanted the fame and fortune, because actually having had a bit of a taste of fame and fortune is quite overwhelming.

Speaker 1: 13:35

And it's really difficult to write when you're in that kind of zone, when you're kind of going on, you know, when you're going on tour and you're going to bookshops. It's exhausting, it's fun and it's great and it's a really part, a great part of the process and I wouldn't have changed it for the world. But it is a different thing from writing and I'm quite an extrovert. I'm kind of I can talk to anyone till the cows come home. As you might have noticed, um Em is much more of an introvert extrovert, so he finds it quite exposing. He doesn't really like it very much. So it's, it was a.

Speaker 2: 14:05

It was a weird one do you think it helped having a partner and not just like a romantic partner? Yeah, having a writing partner when you don't, that journey was going up yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it's been a real kind of um.

Speaker 1: 14:21

We've recently come back to collaboration.

Speaker 1: 14:23

We've collaborated on lots of projects over the years um, because we wrote seven novels together and then we did separate things and then we've recently come back again, and but it's really lovely doing it with someone else, because it's actually I think it's quite hard for somebody else to understand what it's like. I mean, you know what it's like talking about your own books and being in front of an audience and even though it's your own specialist subject, you know you know more about your book and writing than anybody else does, but it's still quite exposing.

Speaker 2: 14:51

So it's um, yes, I'm just really pleased that we were doing it together yeah, it's like I've always said, though it's um, can I say, going me going to court to represent someone. It's not about me at all. So I'm so compartmentalized in regards to it that, whatever happens, it's happened, because, you know, I did my job to the best of my abilities and the jury and the judges made whatever decision they've had to make. But I, it's not personal at all, I just move on to the next one. But for me to sit there or stand there and talk about my book, that's me, that's all of me, because I've sat at this desk for hours and days and months and years, yeah, and it's your baby.

Speaker 2: 15:30

Right, it's your baby.

Speaker 1: 15:31

And it feels very kind of exposing. So it's lovely to be able to do it with somebody. Not necessarily the events, because the events are always quite fun and you know you've got somebody there and you've got an audience. They're always really interactive and that's really fun. But it's for the in-between times. You know the late night knackered. You know train journey home from somewhere random. You know all those times when you're kind of hungry on a train platform and you're going to some strange place to do a kind of like book event. Those times it's really lovely to be with someone and actually it was lovely to do it before we had kids. I think it's very difficult for people when they've got a family to go and do those kind of things and go do those tours. I think they're quite. They're quite. They take quite a lot of toll and I think it's hard for a lot of people to be away from their families. So it was really good that we did it when we were young, you know, did you?

Speaker 2: 16:17

find though, with the, did you find, like your second book with Emlyn, was that more of the, I say the traditional view of a second book syndrome? Did you have or did it never come?

Speaker 1: 16:30

disaster. It was a disaster. We had, um, we wrote a book about jack and amy's joint hen and stag do. Yeah, we set up, we we did four characters, so we were doing alternate chapters, but we had two males, two females and it was their friends and it was a kind of like whole thing and it was set on one weekend in a sort of Center Parcs kind of location, and Center Parcs was kind of quite fun at that time. It was just sort of coming up, so it was all these 20-somethings in Center Parcs and it was kind of. There was kind of lots of shenanigans and drugs and you know.

Speaker 1: 16:59

But we had literally no time to write it. I mean, because we've been on tour, we're on this deadline, no, and nobody had kind of given us any advice. They just said oh yeah, just write your book. Nobody sort of said you know, can I see the plot or do you need a hand? They just said, oh no, actually, you know, could you get it in, you know, next month? And we're like so I remember going down to Wales, um, to a little cottage of Emily's parents, friends, and just writing furiously, like all nighters, just writing, writing.

Speaker 1: 17:26

We eventually got this draft together and we handed it in and they didn't really do very much editing apart from to strip out all the drugs, all the kind of fun, all the drinking. So they kind of really sanitized it and really against the deadline, so they, so it came out and we hadn't even really had time to edit it or have have any kind of feedback about what had happened and um, and it came out. I remember sitting in a service station and reading the newspapers and this awful, eviscerating review came out in the guardian about how we'd totally fallen off our perch and it was awful and it was terrible book and it was just and some of what they were saying was true and so it was just. It was just really hurtful and it was just and some of what they were saying was true and so it was just. It was just really hurtful and it was and also just really a really good lesson that you just don't hand in something until you're really pleased with it, you don't let somebody else roughshod you with editing.

Speaker 1: 18:16

And um, and I remember years later I was down on, you know, in the embankment where they've got all the books and down by yeah, and then I was there and I was with a friend and I was showing off because I saw a copy of Come Again and I said to the guy oh, oh, can I have that copy? And he went yeah, it's a pound, but you can have it for 50p. It's not very good. No, I was like well, that showed me. So, yeah, so it was classic second book syndrome.

Speaker 1: 18:40

Well, that showed me. So, yeah, so it was classic second book syndrome. And yeah, I mean I've been in quite a few second book syndromes in various forms over the years. They're always quite hard. They're always quite hard to write, but you need to, and sometimes you have to sort of be a pantser and kind of go by the seat of your pants and kind of like work your way in. I've learned as I've got older that actually it's much better to plan and to have a kind of route through, because it just makes the writing much easier and much less likely to go off course. So, yeah, that was a terrible second book decision. But they still employed us and we did six more. And yeah, it was, it was really fun. And then they still employed us and we did six more. And yeah, it was, it was really fun. And then we did lots of parodies together latterly. So we did. We're going on a bar hunt and the teenager came to tea. So we've always had this sort of like funny bone going between us. So it's quite fun.

Speaker 2: 19:33

But what does it do to your psyche? Because I don't know why it's mainly on Fred's at the moment, maybe because Fred's is new, so you're seeing like a resurgence of all those old questions, but I see so many like new writers on there and they're talking about you know. I've read my review and I've and this is how I feel, or should I read it and I don't know what to expect. But what does it do to your psyche when you're when it's it's not just done, it's not like that one person, it's like done in public?

Speaker 1: 20:05

yeah, I just I have made a decision that if I can't handle the bad reviews, then I'm not going to even read the good reviews, because actually you can have, you know, 400 great reviews, but if you get one bad one, it's just devastating. You know it's, it's, I just find it really hurtful and you and quite often you'll be going well, no, you didn't read my book properly really hard with reviews, and I think it's um, it's particularly bad when you get an Amazon review and they say, oh, this book turned up and the packaging was ripped and they've given you a one-star review. So you know that. Um, I kind of think that if you're gonna review a book, just review the books that you like um, life is too short to be a finished. Books that you don't like um, and that don't suit you um, because there's so many books that will and it's so many, it's so great. So I kind of think some, some people just can't stop themselves putting the boot in um, so I think you have to stay away from those people.

Speaker 1: 21:02

And I think for me, um, the validation point part of it is a very sort of tricky thing. Um, for me, the validation always comes when I type the end and I get my kids to type the end. That's traditionally, and I'm always wrung out, I'm in my jimmy jam bottoms, I'm weeping go look at your mother. The accountants promise me and, um, so so you know, um, I write because I love the process of writing and actually for me, my validation comes when I know that I've wrestled it out of the ether and onto the page and then, by the time the reviews come out, obviously I want people to to enjoy it, but I feel quite detached from it by that point.

Speaker 1: 21:46

Um, and I kind of think you just don't know, because there's no. I mean, that's what I've learned. You know 22 novels later, I've learned there is just no alchemy Nadine. There's. You know, there is something special that happens to books that fly and you just don't know what it is, because some books get massively, get a massive spend behind them and they flop. Some books come from nowhere and seem to just flourish. Some authors get lucky and just get completely viral on TikTok. There's no rhyme or reason, so you just can't predict that kind of thing. So if you go into it because you want people, I go into it because I want people to love the book that I've written, but I also go into it because I want to love the book I've written myself. So you can't. I think you have to be really careful about that validation piece from other people because it's very tenuousuous and it's not.

Speaker 2: 22:41

It's quite hard to get your head around yeah, I was talking about this yesterday, um, on another interview, about the whole predicting what books are going to do, how you can't do it and there's no rhyme or reason why I said some books will fly and they just seem to just come out of nowhere. You're like where does this book come from? And all of a sudden it's everywhere. And then the books that have been hyped up and the authors that have been hyped up, and you expect it to be on the day of release. Two days later you expect to see it, to see a number one in the charts, and it's not there. And you're like what happened? Then you do the tiktok books again, which seem to come out of nowhere and then you know it's luck and timing.

Speaker 1: 23:18

I had a really big book in 2008. I I decided to write my bog buster, that I'd always wanted to write, and I wrote Platinum, which is about three women who bring down a big Russian oligarch, and London at the time was full of all the Russians coming in and a lot of money and everybody had loads of money. And so it came out in this huge hardback and it was a big push and there'd been a big auction for it and I got a fabulous deal from Transworld and they sort of sat me around the table and said we absolutely guarantee you this will be top five in paperback. So it was published in hardback and it did really well in hardback and then it came out in paperback with a very gaudy cover on it which I didn't particularly like. I was in Heathrow Terminal 5 looking at women picking up and going. I was like, don't put it down, I wrote it for you, it's your holiday, and they were putting it back. Yeah, because it was kind of.

Speaker 1: 24:05

But it came out in paperback on the week that Lehman Brothers went bust in 2000 and suddenly having a gaudy thing saying platinum it was all about money was suddenly overnight out of fashion because we were all like, oh no, all those people are evil, they will spend the money and the world culturally shifts, which which often happens. You know, things like, um, in covid, things happen and I've dumped several books. You know, I was writing a book called love in the death cafe, which was all about how we never talk about death. After I'd written the council ladies running club and then covid struck. It's like well, all we are talking about is death. So you know, you have to be able to pivot, but it's also you. Just a lot of it is luck, luck and timing.

Speaker 1: 24:48

But I would say and I think this is a really important point, the books of mine that have been really successful and that have taken off of have been the ones that have been really the most personal. Um, I think that it's it's tempting to write a story where you are putting a plot together and you're putting a story that's interesting to you together. But I think the things that really take off are where the author has left part of their soul on the page. Um, and I think that you really, even if the story isn't about you and it's not autobiographical, if you are taking um, the truth of an emotional truth, of something that has happened to you, and you put it on the page and you can disguise it as an author. I think those are the books that people resonate with and I think people can tell. I think people can tell the difference between a book that's just a story and a book that's got massive emotional resonance.

Speaker 2: 25:39

You can kind of tell when it's kind of like a paint, by numbers. Yeah, I don't know what it is, but it might be a turn of phrase, it might be a character. There's something about it that seems kind of forced.

Speaker 1: 25:52

Or formulaic, yeah, formulaic, I think readers can recognise that, yeah, and I certainly think within crime as well or within genre fiction, that's also very spotable and people like reading crime series for their different characters and they get in the characters and stuff. But you can tell authors that just sort of tick in the boxes. And it's important to to really put your heart into into what you're doing, because I think that's what really readers really want and really expect now. Because I think that's what readers really want and really expect now. So, because we're also plot literate from television, we know the machinations of a story very well. We're very good at plot shorthand all of us. So it's important really to make sure that that soul, that part of you that is really connecting with the story, is connecting with the readers. Yeah, you know you're talking about Lehman Brothers. Lot of you that is really connecting with the story is connecting with the readers.

Speaker 2: 26:41

Yeah you know you're talking about Lehman Brothers and and you're and then talking about having a story in that story connecting one of my best friends. She was working at Lehman Brothers and I remember the day when it crashed I was, I was home. I don't know why I was home. I was home for some reason. And I'm watching the news and I'm watching people leave Canary Wharf with their boxes and then a few hours later I get a call from her.

Speaker 2: 27:05

Yeah, so I've just like been made redundant, like we've all lost our jobs. I'm watching people leaving on the TV and you know that in itself is a story, because with it after that, you know, there comes a pivot in her life and then she ends up moving to Dubai and working in Dubai for a few years. But I wanted to ask you, you know, after Come Together, like and you were saying the second book and how it was sanitized, do you, do you know why they sanitized it when it worked? So with the first book, and also, let me think about the era we were in. Yeah, I was gonna say Britpop, it's like post.

Speaker 1: 27:42

Yeah, but this is what we were writing. You know, we're writing truthfully about what was what was going on. I mean, I don't know, it was just it was a publisher's decision. I've noticed, uh, I've had various editorial. You know, uh, experiences over the years latterly, um, and what's happening now in publishing is that the agents are really taking on the responsibility of um publishing, of editing the book. So what you're finding now and what we're finding is that our agents are really the editors and they will really really work on the draft with you until they, until they think it's ready to send out.

Speaker 1: 28:18

Um, yeah, so I don't think that editors, some, some I mean I've got a lovely relationship with my editor um, so I don't think that editors, some, some I mean I've got a lovely relationship with my editor they go, yes, and see what they think. You know I like it, but that would be it, whereas now the agents are completely involved right from the beginning and even even um, I mean it's much tougher now. Even people who are in um big contracts are being asked by their publishers to submit their first 25 000 words and if the in the and even if they're contracted for the book, they're just saying, well, no, we don't like it or no, it doesn't fit. So you know it's, it's getting harder and the you know the bar is rising, um, so yeah, it's tricky. You know you have to make friends with the editing process and it was a real question of timing and I didn't think we had the gut, the courage to stand up for ourselves at that time because of the time with pressure was so tight and you know there was lots of other things going on.

Speaker 1: 29:18

I was having a baby. You know I didn't really fight for my corner for that second book. I mean, in the long term it didn't matter, because the one that people remembered was Come Together and some of the ones that came after it. But, and also, you don't not every book you write is going to be the surefire. Massive, great big hit is going to be the surefire, massive, great big hit. It's just not you think it's you, you write it that way, but it's not just by the law of books, it's just not.

Speaker 2: 29:48

So not everyone is going to go, are you constantly surprised by industry, because you know, when you're talking about working with your agent and for me I would have just assumed that's how it's always been, because when I got my agent we worked on my, we worked on my first book. It wasn't that long, but we worked on it for a couple of weeks together before we then went out on submission. And then you know, once you're in it and you become friends of other writers or at different stages, you know, I know some writers who have worked. They've worked on their book with their agent for a whole year, yeah, before it's gone out on submission, and before that I would have just one. I would not have believed that you just think you sign up an agent and off it goes. But then it's also interesting to learn that there was a time when it just went your agent didn't work a bit and the agent would just send it off.

Speaker 1: 30:37

And then sometimes I mean, I was actually writing a second book for Ryan when I got the deal with Emlyn, and that was an interesting one, because I was writing a book called my Life as a Waitress, Obviously, I was a waitress and I went in and I found out that the editor had pitched in a completely different story to the one that I'd given her and she just told me that that's the story that she wanted me to write.

Speaker 1: 31:03

So that was a shock, and so I think that used to happen quite a lot as well. People would be told really what to do by the, by the publishers. So it's changed. It's changed a lot, but I also think that the publishers are all merging. There's a lot of competition within publishing houses to people on on the lists, the lists of sort of expanding in one way is contracting in other ways. There's new markets that come on, people always chasing what's the next next thing.

Speaker 1: 31:32

Um, and sometimes you will write a book and some, some things come into fashion like psychological women's fiction suddenly in, and they'll try and crowbar your story and just be skewed towards that. So sometimes, sometimes it's been the case that you people will hand in a book and then they suddenly feel that they've been kind of led down to write in a different genre than they started out in. But I think that's all because it's we have to be. You have to be really clear as an author. What you're selling, you know, is it an apple or an orange? Basically, that's to know.

Speaker 1: 32:05

Um, and I think the message that you have in your pitch, that you give to your agent, that your agent gives to your publisher that you're, you know, that it gives your editor, that the editor gives to the publishing team that they have to get to the market to be sales, that message has to be really clear and you have to be really clear about what you're selling. And even and I think more than ever now, it's become a sort of sales game and a lot of the sales departments in the publishers are the ones that have the power, I would argue, more than their editors, because quite a lot of things go through the editorial process.

Speaker 2: 32:34

The editors take them to sales and then the sales say, nah, don't want it yeah, I think through through this, through this podcast, and then you know, just now, being in industry meeting different writers there's I've heard so many stories of. You know an agent loves the book and then they submit and the submit and the editor loves the book, they get through track positions and no, no you know it's heartbreaking.

Speaker 1: 32:57

It's heartbreaking, but what I have learned is that you have to be resilient. You have to be, you have to really have the hide of a rhino to be an author, because there's so many knockbacks and there's so much wish fulfillment. You know wishful thinking and there's so much disappointment that comes with the job. You know, because not everything goes and you know it's hard to make a living out of it and all those things. So it's very important that you enjoy the bits that are in your control, if you see what I mean, and to put you all into those things listeners.

Speaker 2: 33:27

It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. Is this what you've always wanted? To be a writer, way back when, when you were a kid?

Speaker 1: 33:49

well, when I was little um, I was a bit of a chatterbox, I mean was your score report.

Speaker 2: 33:55

She talks a lot. That was mine, always, always trouble for just banging on.

Speaker 1: 34:00

And, um, my sister was a reader. She was kind of like, she always loved books and we lived in Essex and we used to go to London to see my grandmother every weekend and, um, nana was sort of all around London. She sort of lived in all different places and we'd drive from, uh, from Chelmsford to Essex, from Essex to London, which wasn't that far, but you know, in those days it was very exciting because on the skyline you could see the post office tower and St Paul's and the NatWest tower and it was like that was it. That's where the skyscrapers, that was it. And you drive through Romford and you go past the Dagenham factory and then you go into East London and it was really fun. Anyway, I was always chattering and my mum gave me a notebook and pen and she said just write it down, just write it down. And then I'm like, oh, we're at Broomfield Road traffic lights. Oh no, they're changed. Oh no, hang on. No, we're now on the A12. And oh no, dad's forgotten something, we've gone back.

Speaker 1: 34:55

So these ridiculous diaries I would get to London and my Nana would read them and laugh, not entirely for the right reasons, but because she was just sweet and she kind of encouraged me and I just thought and I kind of realized early that I could make people laugh through my writing, which felt really good. And then I I wrote, I loved reading and then I kind of joined. I really always wanted to be a writer, mainly because I had this ridiculous fantasy that I would be in a kind of white power suit right driving in a stretch limo with a chauffeur to somewhere like Jackie Collins, there'd be a long line of people around the block and I'd be signing. It'd be like this was sort of like my crazy fantasy about being an author and it would all be tremendous and um. But I always have done a quite a lot of writing, just mainly as therapy. I've always felt that I I find that if I write things down it makes things easier, you know. So I've always done that. And then I kind of got.

Speaker 1: 35:53

Then I found Writing Down the Bones by Natalie Goldberg, which is a really amazing book and she, if you've ever heard of it, it's's a really nice. So she was a. This is quite an old book. She's very famous in the world of writing. So she she decided that she wanted to be kind of like get into meditation, and.

Speaker 1: 36:11

But then she went to the buddhist monk and said I, my knees can't hack it, sorry. He said well, make writing your practice. So she came up with this incredible system for writing rules, that for creative writing, and she really kind of had to think about it and how the biggest challenge is to shut up the critic on your shoulder oh no, you can't write that and that's stupid or no, that's right. And she came up with these writing rules and it was about writing fast. You do timed writing exercises and you would write really fast. So with no punctuation, no spelling, no grammar, you have to go for the juggler. You have a prompt and you go straight in and you take it to where it's scary.

Speaker 1: 36:52

And I kind of started doing this and started sort of writing in cafes and I really loved it. And then I got to about 25 and I was working in an agency and I was really I was doing quite a lot of writing for my job. But my boss was horrible to me and said you can't write and I just thought I just want to write fiction and if I don't do it now, I'll never do it. So I had this epiphany moment and gave up everything and decided to just write and I wrote my first novel. So I've always wanted to be a writer and then I've been writing lots of sort of women's commercial fiction. After Platinum didn't really work, I went back to Pam Mac and I did a lot of women's big women's commercial fiction and I wrote a trilogy of books set in the 20s, which was really fun.

Speaker 1: 37:29

But I got breast cancer in 2017. And it was a massive shock, you know. I was picked up on a scan, fortunately, and I was, you know. But then I'm suddenly in the whole shebang and I wrote a diary of the whole thing and at the end of it and I kind of like landed up running through the whole thing and there was an amazing thing that happened to me as I was running through my cancer treatment and I just really wanted to write a book, because I always turn to fiction for solace. I always turn to fiction to make sense of the world and I couldn't find a book that was about going through cancer treatment that had a happy ending and I was like, well, there must be women that have survived and that are doing really well. You know, there must be loads of us. So where are those stories? You know, we need something positive and hopeful.

Speaker 1: 38:12

So I wrote that book and after, but I had a real moment, you know, when my life sort of fell apart at that moment and I kind of thought do I want to be a writer? Can I put myself through this? You know I'm not earning very much. It's you know, it's hard. It's hard to keep going, it's hard to keep positive, it's hard to do all these things. Do I really want this? You know, going forward, and I see all my friends who've had careers and they're all you know getting on and I'm like, well, you know, this is really hard. Do I really want this?

Speaker 1: 38:46

And I kind of really did a bit of soul searching. I thought, what do I want to be? Because I could do all sorts of other things, and I do lots of other things. You know, I'm a patron of a charity, I do a podcast and there's lots of things that I do myself. But I thought, no, I really want to write.

Speaker 1: 38:59

And actually it was a really lovely thing just thinking no, that's who I am, that's what I do, that's how I define myself, I'm going to keep going and I'm going to keep going till I drop and also, to be fair as a woman, it's the kind of career you can have where you just get better and better. Eventually, obviously, I'll be lying on a chaise long with somebody and, uh, but you know, you could. You know, look at Ginny Cooper and people you know. They're well into their 80s and they're still writing and I think that's wonderful and I think as a woman, it's a really empowering thing to do, because you just get better and better. So for in a longevity kind of sense, yeah, I really want to carry on writing you.

Speaker 2: 39:40

You know, I don't know if interesting is the right word, but you know you're having those dark moments of the soul like can I write? Should I carry on writing? But when you contrast that with being 25 and just giving everything up and going to write and then to go through your ups and downs, and you know writing on your own and writing with emeline, writing in under a different name and then to I don't, it's not even full circle, but maybe like a 180, and reach that point where you're having that dark moment I don't know what this, I don't know what I'm trying to say like how do you push yourself through that?

Speaker 1: 40:19

I think it comes down to, you have to just be really honest with with yourself. Just go right, okay. Well, even though I haven't you know, I'm not making that much money for my books I love writing my books. I love the fact that readers get in touch with me and say that they love my books. I want to write to make a difference, you know, and the Cancer Ladies Running Club was a real turning point because it was a book that made a massive difference to people and even now, you know, it's been out for quite a few years. It was published in America. I'm doing the film script of it.

Speaker 1: 40:47

But actually, you know, what's really amazing is just all these messages I get from women every week saying I read your book and it's made a massive difference to me. And I've put my trainers on and I've gone outside for a walk, I've gone outside for a run and I, you know, I'm feeling hopeful and I just think that that's such an important thing because I think the stories that we tell are the way we make sense of the world, and I think it's really important. So I'm, you know, I'm pretty useless at everything else, to be honest, I mean, no, I'm not. I don't know anything. I'm a general, you know. I think you know a lot. I know a lot about this, but I don't know a lot about anything else. But you know a lot. I know a lot about this, but I don't know a lot about anything else.

Speaker 1: 41:20

But you know, if I can make a difference to the world through my words, then I, then you know I really will. That's that feels like a real vision to me. So I think the way we study the world, I also think in this world where everything goes online and everybody gets very binary about certain issues, I think a novel is a very clever place where you can lay out an issue and look at it from different points of view and look at it from different ways. And I think novels particularly are the way in which we teach people empathy, because you have to sit with uncomfortable feelings for a while until they're resolved, and you have to know what that feels like. And I think that's a very important journey for me to take people on yeah, I when I signed with HQ.

Speaker 2: 42:08

So that was when did I sign? 2019, yeah, and then the Cancer Ladies Running Club. That was one of the books. You know, they send you like a bunch of proofs. They're like we like you. They send you things and they sent me a bunch of proofs.

Speaker 2: 42:21

And I read the Cancer Lady Runnings Club and I think what occurred to me because I had a lot of people in my family who've had cancer but they haven't survived it and there are some who have survived it. But it was nice to read a book where you know when you write the end even though the end is not in there, but you know in my head you've reached the end. You know that it's not the end for the characters. It hasn't ended with. You know it's a funeral and what we're going to do. Yeah, there's a continuation. So you didn't feel any way. That's what I was going to ask you, um, before. You didn't feel any way about putting yourself on the page in that way, or you just felt like this is something that needs to be out there it needs to be out there.

Speaker 1: 42:57

And actually, you know, I want I put my Kira's Kira's journey um through her treatment is very similar to what I went through, so those kind of medical details and the feelings that she experienced were very much something that I felt.

Speaker 1: 43:10

But it take me, took me quite a while and many drafts to make the story fictional and to make it, to lift it from my life and to give it its own, its own story and to make Kira real. And it's actually been really interesting doing the screenplay of it as well, to make take that again a step further. And I'm just really proud of it because it is, you know, it is personal and it is raw, but it's also I've left it on the. In a lot of ways it's kind of therapy. I know I've left it on the. In a lot of ways it's kind of therapy. I know I've left it on the page. It's gone and I was really and it was really cathartic writing about it because it just meant that it was gone from my life in a good way so, yeah, it's a release, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 43:52

yeah, in a strange way, and I kind of think that I've, you know, I know lots of writers who've written things that are very, very raw and personal and they felt very relieved having written about it. So, yeah, I mean, yes, it is putting a lot of myself on the page, but I also think it needs to be done and it needed to be out there as a book.

Speaker 1: 44:13

So, I always think this is a really good starting point for writers. If you can't find the book that you want to read, then you might you have a duty to write that book if you have. It's like, you know, entrepreneurs, they kind of build businesses because they have something that they wanted in their life and it wasn't there, and they invent it. So it's the same with authors you have to find the story. That is what you want to write, what you want to read, and it's not there, and so then you write it.

Speaker 2: 44:38

I think that's why it's important that you think you tell people repeatedly do not write to trends, because once trends change, and then yeah, and you're trying to, I feel like you're trying to force a story when you're just trying to follow a trend and trying to make sure we'll do everything you can to make sure you hit that number one spot, because next week it's a different trend, exactly exactly. So what made you do the 1920s books under a different name also?

Speaker 1: 45:06

yeah, well, obviously I was writing as Josie Lloyd with Emily. I went out with Platinum as Jo Rees and then um, which is also my name, and uh, and then when that, when those books didn't work and when the second book didn't, I mean they didn't put any effort into the second book at all, so that didn't really work. And then you have these book track figures against your name. So then you've got this terrible track record. So you're not going to be paid very, very much because you've been deed, even if it was no fault of your own. You haven't got very good sales. So I mean it's cruel, right? So yeah. So then I thought, well, I'll go back and I went to Wayne at Pam Mac, who's a great mate, who's a wonderful editor, and he was the first person to bid on platinum. So I was like, right, okay, wayne, you know we'll go again and I'll write.

Speaker 1: 45:52

You know, I wanted to write sort of Jeffrey Archery kind of big, sweeping fiction. I like throwing down a big story net and having casts of characters as well as doing really intimate stuff. So I did A Twist of Fate and the Key to it All and the Girl from Lace Island, and then I just thought there was quite a lot of trend for historical fiction at the time and I kind of thought I would really like to have a go at it. You know, I'd like to have a go at this sort of like 1920s story and take it over three books, um, which is what I did. So one in 1926, one in 1928 and one in 1930. There was so much fun to write and research and also that lovely thing you get when you, when you've got your characters up and running and then you write another book with them and then they move on again. It was just a real fun thing to kind of plot that arc. So that was really fun.

Speaker 1: 46:37

But then I then I was going through cancer treatment and then I really had to write the Cancer Ladies Running Club. So then I went back to writing as Josie Lloyd and then I got, you know, got a deal with HQ, like you, um and uh, they were wonderful and it was amazing because I had a lovely auction, but they were by far and away the ones that kind of really got it and um, and they did a really great job and of course it came out sort of covid time. Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't great. And then I did, and then I was writing a book about this book about how we were talking about death, and and then everybody was talking about death. So I pivoted and wrote about uh, sea swimming was what I do in Brighton. So I did a book called uh, life saving for beginners. And then, um, and then it was just not. It did really well in Germany, um, as did Breitenschwimmclub, but it didn't do very well here and it's you know not. You know, and HQ are great and they've done you know, but they can't make every single book a hit and it just wasn't selling as much as I wanted to. And then I said you know, I was halfway through writing a book about climbing up mountains and I realized that the path that I was on with the cancellators running club and then the swimming club was just not.

Speaker 1: 47:45

They were not gonna make a great deal out of my book. So I pivoted again and I've come, I've gone into cozy crime. Yeah, I've always. So I've always wanted to write crime because I've had quite a lot of jeopardy in my big Joanna Rees books. So I and I love cozy crime. I'm very squeamish as a person why you've gone cozy in a fight or flight situation. I'm out the door. You know I'm rubbish. I'm not the one who's going to open the trap door and go down to the basement ever ever.

Speaker 2: 48:15

So I wouldn't go either. Even though I write crime, I'm like well, what am?

Speaker 1: 48:18

I going down there for I'm off, yeah, yeah, so I'm. So it's quite fun for me to kind of like have an intrepid character who's kind of quite brave and logical. So, yes, that was really fun to write, to write Miss Beaton's Murder Agency, so that, yeah, that's been super fun before I ask you about Miss Beaton's Murder Agency.

Speaker 2: 48:37

The thing is, even when you're writing, I would say, like historical fiction or even writing family dramas, there's always going to be an element of mystery. It's not going to be a great big. I know there's someone dead in the attic for like 20 years, or we found a bunch of money behind the wardrobe, there's all. There was some kind of mystery. There could be even the characters, personalities or in the, in the plot. So there was always that crime element.

Speaker 1: 49:01

I think yeah yeah, yeah for sure. And I kind of think I think you have to set up a in any book. I think the books that kind of really appeal to me as well are the books where there is a secret or there's a conflict, or there's a kind of like the character is put in conflict because of the secret, because of people not finding out why are they hiding this and what's what's after? And I'm also I'm really nosy, so I just want to know. I just want to know the answer. So, in any book that sets up a and that's why I quite like crime books, you know, any book that sets up an intriguing scenario, uh, where there's some conflict, I just want to know how that's resolved.

Speaker 1: 49:42

And I think, as as people you know, I'm kind of quite a fixer in my life, you know, I like, I like connecting people, I like fixing things, I like emotionally fixing people, um, if I can, or, you know, being advising my friends, if I, you know, if they want advice, not unsolicited, I have to say but, um, I, you know, it's that thing of creating a conflict and then resolving it is. It is actually a really satisfying process for me. So, yes, all and and any book. You know you just have to have characters that you like to spend time with and um, and in Cozy Crime you get a real opportunity to create some nice characters, um, that you're going to spend some time with. So, yeah, really fun.

Speaker 2: 50:24

Before I ask you to tell the listeners about Miss Beaton's murder.

Speaker 2: 50:29

I've forgotten the title, miss Beaton's Murder Agency, and I've got it in front of me so I don't even know why I forgot. You know, when you were talking about being a nosyy person, I was just thinking I'm terrible because I write crime like I write about the worst sort of crimes, and I worked in criminal law for 20 years but yeah, I had no idea what's going on, like on my own street, like my neighbours had been having I didn't know. They've been having like an argument for 20 years and in disputes and everything and the whole. I live in a mute, so the whole like row of houses in front of me. They all knew about this argument and police being involved.

Speaker 2: 51:09

I had no idea until the police knocked my door one day during Covid. They were like oh, um, are you aware of, like um, any aggravating instances? And I was like what here? And they're like, yeah, I went in this muse. They were like, yeah, I'm like no, and then they came back. I think they came back a couple of days later and then down on, my eyes were widened. One Sunday I see the police cars coming to the muse and I'm like I think sometimes I'm just so in my own bubble, creating my own. I'm not aware of what's going on in my own street that's really funny.

Speaker 1: 51:47

Yeah, well, I know, I think it's um. I think you're obviously very uh dedicated and uh focused about what you do, so that's that's a good thing.

Speaker 2: 51:57

I think I'm a as well Like. I can't be bothered to get up to the window and take a look and see what's going on.

Speaker 1: 52:03

I'm terrible because Emlyn is a massive news fanatic and he reads all the news and he reads all different newspapers to sort of see whether he's got the right view. So he gives me all the news top stories and tells me things that are going on and he gets annoyed with me that I haven't read the news and I'm like why would I read the news? You've just told me everything you just told me. You just told me all the news you don't need to yeah, all right.

Speaker 2: 52:23

So, josie, could you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about Miss Beaton's murder agency?

Speaker 1: 52:28

yes, well, this came about because my mum unfortunately passed away and my dad and then my dad passed away recently and I was cleaning out the house and I came across a really massive, chunky book that was my grandmother's of Mrs Beaton's book of household management. Now, mrs Beaton was full of kind of old newspaper bits of kind of like old recipes and covered in wine stains and bits of batter and you know it's really fun. But I remember it as a very, very small child where we put it on the floor and it was enough of a step for me to put my head on the counter, put it on the floor and it was enough of a step for me to put my head on the counter. My nana and I kind of got really interested in this book because Mrs Beaton, within her lifetime she's sort of fallen out of fashion but for a very long time she was a byword for domesticity and order and actually she wasn't like that at all. She was writing in an age where lots of women were moving out of London and they were creating their own households and they had to order fish and hire a maid and order coal and educate the children and know how to put together a dinner for the boss at the weekend. They had no idea. So instead, mrs Beaton Isabella Beaton who was very forward thinking and ran a publishing company with her husband and she wrote this guide to household management which became the best selling book of the 20th century and everybody had it and it was kind of like this thing and so I wanted I always really like I'm a massive foodie and I'm very greedy and I'm always talking about and I always love a recipe in a book and I thought what about if I made my character a distant relative of Mrs Beaton? And she runs the Good Household Management Agency? So I kind of update the concept of what we think Mrs Beaton is, um, and have her. And that was sort of the start of it.

Speaker 1: 54:16

So I've created Aliceon, who runs the Good Household Management Agency. She's a distant relative of Mrs Beaton and she places staff in posh houses in Knightsbridge and in kind of country parks. I wanted to have a real 80s old-fashioned vibe but it's set contemporarily. So she runs this agency. She's got loads and loads of people in her file. In fact you still didn't know. She's got mix and loads of people in her file that you didn't know. Or you know, she's got mixologists, gardeners, she's got nannies, she's got housekeepers, she's got drivers, she's got everybody at her fingertips, all these people that know. So it's a real kind of like way of seeing the rich side of life and also kind of like the people who work for the rich people, anyway.

Speaker 1: 55:05

So she places staff and into her agency just before Christmas works lovely Enya. At the same time she gets a call from the Messant saying that their housekeeper has unexpectedly quit and they're in a pickle. Can they, can she send someone? So Alice, really, skirting over the checks that she should have made, sends Enya to the Messant's household and closes for Christmas, all fine. And then on New Year's eve she gets the call that any has been found murdered in the mesonse study at their new year's eve party, and so now she has to find out what happened, because it's all sort of hushed up and it's sort of sent up the chain of the police, and so she goes in undercover to find out what happened. So she has to kind of gather her resources of her friends and stuff. So it was just completely fun.

Speaker 1: 55:41

But she's a great character and she, um, she does a lot of uh baking and she does a lot of cooking and she kind of really believes in fixing people through food. So she um, I've included lots of recipes in the book. So I've included Mrs Beaton's own recipes and I've included a lot of recipes of my own. So it's super cozy becausey, because you know, it's Christmas, so it's got tiramisu and it's got tiffin and it's got Christmas cake and it's got things in it. To be a full disclosure, I'm a terrible baker, but you like to eat the food. I like to be a shucking baker because I never have the right equipment or the right measuring stuff and all that. So, yeah, but it's just really, really fun and I've got this cast of characters and it's the start of a series, so I'm looking forward to revisiting Alice shortly you sound?

Speaker 1: 56:27

really excited about it. It's just really fun and it's like you know, I like reading cozy crimes anyway, I really like Richard Osman and I like I like that kind of what I grew up on, kind of like heart to heart Murder she Wrote and all those kind of like crime series. When I was a kid I loved all that. So, so, yes, it's been a joy to write. You know it's easy. You know she's just been a dream and she's got a best mate called Jinx, who's a kind of like it girl from the 90s but is now kind of down a hill and three husbands later is kind of like got all the clothes but none of the money, and so she helps, she helps Alice out. So it's just a real fun cast of characters, I mean there was no qualms about going into a completely different genre.

Speaker 2: 57:10

You're just excited to do it.

Speaker 1: 57:11

No, because it's a challenge and actually it's something new and it's been really fun, you know, and it's um, yeah, um. So it's just come out, it's hard back, it's coming out as a paperback next year, but meanwhile I've been writing with Emlyn again, so yes.

Speaker 2: 57:23

So what is? How has that been? After all these, I say after all these years, you live with your marriage picture, but the book for 17 years together, apparently like the novel.

Speaker 1: 57:33

Well, it was just our 25th wedding anniversary and it was just 25 years since come together came out. So our kids have grown up, they're starting to leave home. We've got a 24 year old, a nearly 21 year old and an 18 year old, so they were kind of off doing their own thing and we're kind of at a really different life stage and like it was when we were in our 20s, we wanted to write about 20 something life. We're kind of now in our 50s and it's like there's actually quite a lot to say about midlife and what it's like to be in a long-term relationship and how you keep that magic going and how you keep. You know, there's lots of, lots of stories that are rom-coms or have a rom-com element go up to the happily ever after moment where the ring's presented or it's the wedding, but you don't get what happens after that you know and you don't what happens're in it.

Speaker 1: 58:18

And you know there's lots of midlife second chances kind of books out where people have kind of got divorced and they're kind of trying to get to date again, but nothing about couples and what what it's like in midlife. So we've written we've written a book called you and Me and you and Me and you and Me, which is a romcom and it's a it's a multiverse book. So it's about a couple in their 50s in Brighton. Like a very autobiographical game left a lot of soul on the page with this one and um, they discover a time portal in their shed through mixtapes and they can go back in time to the day that they gave each other the mixtape. So they get to relive their relationship.

Speaker 1: 58:58

But each time they go back they change something about the other person behind, or themselves behind the other person's back. So each time they come back it's exactly the same, except this one thing has changed yeah, so they. So it's really fun. And of course they then have to kind of go on a search to try and get back to what they had, which they thought was so wrong at the beginning. So that has been huge fun and it's just taken off. So we've had an auction in the UK, we've had an auction in the States, we've had an auction in Germany. It's sold in Brazil, oh wow. And we're just in the middle of a whole series of calls with Hollywood, because there's lots of people that's brilliant.

Speaker 1: 59:41

So, yeah, yeah, it's really fun. Aren't mixtapes the best? Oh, they are, and we found it. I mean, it starts with Jules going in the loft and she's trying to get some workspace for her daughter and, um, she finds this whole box of mixtapes they used to make and she tells Adam to throw them out. And he's really offended and he takes them to the shed and when he puts the mixtape in, it transports him to the day on which he gave Jules the first tape and he's in his body. So it's like this he's got his 20, 24 year old Adam's head, but he's in his youthful body. So he gets to see his parents again. He gets to see Jules when she's young, and it's just been so much fun and everybody's really kind of cottoned on to this.

Speaker 1: 1:00:15

Our publishers have gone with Penguin and Harville Secker, which are just amazing, so vintage, but they sent us a beautiful little mixtape. Oh, that's so nice. I mean, they sent us like a mixtape thing of like a Walkman oh my God. So it's actually. You know, it's been so much fun. You know we're really really super hyped and excited and so we've got our last meeting with the kind of Hollywood crew tomorrow and then we're sort of like deciding what's happening from there. But I mean it's just great fun and again to do it all these years later. And also fabulous timing, because our children will have left home. It's coming out in spring 2026. And Minty will be on a year off traveling. So rather than being empty nesters're just gonna you're gonna starting something.

Speaker 2: 1:01:00

Yeah writing our book mixtapes they were. They were like the definition of hard work and patience, because you had to put a lot of thought into the song you wanted and then to sit there and do the whole record. And you know you're doing it like two tape decks. I'm reminiscing now you've got two tape decks together but it's so funny.

Speaker 1: 1:01:21

It's so funny getting this, because you just your your fingers automatically go to the buttons and then do you remember recording the top 40? Oh, yeah, yeah. And then you can't record and you get to the bit at the end was like, and it was the number 10, you'll get down to the radio one and it'd be the number one. You'd be like, oh, I've got to get you have to record.

Speaker 2: 1:01:39

You have your buttons on your fingers on record and play and also stop, and then you're trying to do it so you can start recording when the DJ is finished and then you want to end it but also, do you remember?

Speaker 1: 1:01:54

but what's really odd about mixtapes is that you play them so often, that often I hear a song now and I kind of think that the next song that should be coming on is the one that I can remember from the mixtape because you remembered the order they were in. Yeah, oh yeah, it's really fun. So it's all about that and it's all about the kind of mixtapes of their, of their past. So actually, so it's just, it's just been super fun. So we've had really amazing months because we only handed it. We worked really really hard on the draft for the agents, so super hard. We did really grueling kind of big edits with it and then it went out on the 3rd of October and then it's just gone nuts.

Speaker 2: 1:02:32

So I can't wait to be there. That's brilliant. Before I ask you your last set of questions, I had this one question in my head. Have you questions? I had this one question in my head have you ever been tempted to go back and like update, come together and I'm only asking because Lisa, jules Ralph's party was 25 years old this year and she went back and she changed certain things. So it's like things that would have been, you know, perfectly acceptable in the 90s aren't so much now. You would be tempted to do that.

Speaker 1: 1:03:00

We've come together, we just let it go you just know it's a piece, it's a period piece, it's in time. You know they had no mobile phones, remember? There's a hilarious bit where amy is walking around uh, shepherd's bush, and you know, and it's like I'm ringing inside his house and then the answer machine comes on. And then she made she makes a terrible, terrible message on the answering machine, which we always used to do back in the day, and then it's awful because it's there and he's gonna listen. It's permanent that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:03:28

So you know, there's lots of things like that. We were, we were um contacted by a university professor who was doing a course on 90s culture and he was using come together as a kind of 90s cultural reference. I mean, it's very on PC and you'd have to completely rewrite it, so no, I'd just leave it in the past where it belongs. But yeah, it's been lovely doing the old magic of the alternate chapters again and actually when we started writing this book this year, honestly it was like rediscovering, discovering this kind of magic alchemy we had for that we'd forgotten about that sort of and it was just. It's just been so such a wonderful writing experience to have that together. So, yeah, it's been really super fun oh, I can't wait to read that.

Speaker 2: 1:04:13

All right. So, josie, I got your last set of questions. So because I've had to change the first one, because I already know you're an extrovert. So what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your career?

Speaker 1: 1:04:30

that's an interesting one. Um, I think I wish I would have been told that it's okay that there's going to be ups and downs, and that is that it's not a steady trajectory, that it's okay that there's going to be ups and downs and that it's that it's not a steady trajectory, that it doesn't start and it just builds and builds and builds.

Speaker 2: 1:04:46

It's going to be up and down and up and down, and you have to plan accordingly what challenge or experience and it could be good or bad what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 1:05:02

What challenge or experience shaped me the most? I mean, I think really in midlife, going through cancer has probably shaped me this end of my life. I mean, my childhood was very kind of like boring, normal, happy childhood, so it didn't really. I was just sort of like boring, normal, happy childhood, so it didn't really. I was just very happy to kind of go. I mean, I think motherhood shaped me enormously. I've been very, I've really loved having kids and being a mother has been the thing. That sort of like really made me very, very, very like the person I am, especially the person I am with them then because we've been parenting together. But in terms of a challenge and something that that has shaped me post the challenge, it has been going through breast cancer and being very kind of clear that I'm determined to show that you can thrive on the other side, not just survive. You know so and it's, I think, in any at any stage of life. A midlife shape cup is no bad thing because it really makes you re-examine your choices.

Speaker 2: 1:06:00

I always think that everyone benefits from some kind of pivot yeah in their life. Absolutely, I agree, right, I was. The next question is supposed to be if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be? But 25, you gave up your job and decided to write. So I'm going to give you a fun question. Who would you cast as Miss Beaten? Oh, that's a good question.

Speaker 1: 1:06:27

I mean in an ideal scenario, probably Gillian Anderson.

Speaker 2: 1:06:33

I love Gillian Anderson, I love her.

Speaker 1: 1:06:35

Do you know I met her on a Zoom call oh my God you did, I did she's so call oh my God you did, I did. She's so fabulous oh, she is. Honestly, I want her to be my best friend. She is so fabulous on every level and she's such a great actor and she's so. She brings such a lot of she brings such a lot to every role that she does. So, yes, somebody like that in an ideal world, you know she would be great. I does so. Yes, somebody like that in an ideal world, you know she would be great. And I don't. I don't.

Speaker 1: 1:07:03

I really wanted to write Miss Beaton. She's quite, she's quite traditional, but she's quite she's. She's a midlife person and I kind of think there's so many, there's quite a lot of men in this, in this space, writing midlife women who bang on all the time about being old, whereas I don't know any you bang on about being old, so I I think it's really you know there's a lot of men writing women in this space, but I'm writing authentic women that are that think like I do but there's a lot of books as well not even books in film where I say the midlife men, they're still allowed to act as if they're in their 30s, whereas the women are supposed to just have given up.

Speaker 1: 1:07:40

Yeah, and you know so, I think you know we've got a lot of trailblazers, a lot of women in midlife doing wonderful things in so you know so on social media, and we've got quite a lot of celebrities who are really kind of age defying and re redefining how we see midlife, which which is great. But I also think you need to sort of reflect that in fiction. So, yeah, I would have somebody quite funky to play her, maybe.

Speaker 2: 1:08:07

So yeah, Okay, and finally, where can listeners of the Conversation find Josie Lloyd online?

Speaker 1: 1:08:15

I've got a website, josielloydcom. I have a podcast called Show Us your Bits Podcast, which is all about the stories behind you. I'm going to have to get you on because I can see you on. So, yeah, I'm going to be inviting you on. It's about stories behind people's jewellery and keepsakes, so it's a chance to be very nosy and see their shiny bits. So I do that. I am on Instagram at Josie lloyd writer. I have not.

Speaker 1: 1:08:42

I don't do twitter. I used to do twitter back in the day many years ago. You don't need to, but I don't do that. I've just moved to blue sky, which is quite fun. So I'm josie lloyd books on blue sky, um, and I'm on facebook. I don't really tend to do this. I hate social media. To be honest. I'm just not. I'm not very good at it. Also, I'm the world's worst photographer. So it's embarrassing because you know I have shocking. I mean, I've got be real that I do with my kids where we have to take a picture, and I've always got my thumb over the lens on the food bag of the dog. They think it's hilarious because I'm just absolutely useless at taking pictures. So I'm not brilliant at social media, but I am on there. So, yes, come and find me there. So yeah, maybe mainly Instagram and blue sky.

Speaker 2: 1:09:24

I will find you on blue sky. But you know I was just thinking about the photographs. It's very much a 90s thing where you get your photographs developed at the chemist or boots and you'll come back and you've got the stickers over it yeah, it's all blurry.

Speaker 1: 1:09:37

Mine would come out really be like one of somebody's knee. I mean, honestly, I'm terrible and you know. And everyone says, oh, but the smartphone makes it really easy. I have no idea. I don't know how to do it. I'm always in a pickle. I'm like one of those really annoying people as well. I get everybody lined up to take pictures and I'm never in them. Oh, I'm useless, so yeah doesn't matter.

Speaker 2: 1:09:57

There's always a way. There'll always be a way. Well, it just leaves me, josey lloyd, to say thank you so much for being part of the conversation oh I honestly.

Speaker 1: 1:10:04

It's been an absolute joy and a pleasure to see you and to meet you um here, and thank you ever so much.

Speaker 2: 1:10:08

It's been a wonderful time thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with nadine matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.