Mari Hannah: Crafting Crime and Life Changing Moments

In this captivating episode, Mari Hannah, a bestselling author and former probation officer, takes us on a journey through her unique path to success in the literary world. She reveals how her earlier career as a probation officer, has deeply influenced her storytelling, allowing her to craft authentic narratives that resonate with readers. With her sixteenth book, 'Her Sister's Killer', Mari delves into the emotional challenges of character development, the significance of prologues, and the intricate relationship between writing and real-life experiences.

Join us as we explore the ups and downs of her publishing journey, including personal anecdotes that highlight both the triumphs and struggles she faced along the way. Mari Hannah shares her perspective on the ever-evolving crime fiction landscape, emphasising the importance of resilience and a strong belief in oneself while navigating the complexities of the publishing industry. 

Whether you’re a budding writer or a devoted reader, there's something for everyone in this engaging conversation. Remember to subscribe and join our community for more inspiring conversations.

Her Sisters Killer

What brings people together often throws them apart, especially when it involves family. Newly promoted Inspector Frankie Oliver has been consumed by rooting out her sister's killer and bringing them to justice. But when new evidence comes to light, and her former boss DCI David Stone embarks on an investigation into the tragic unsolved murder without her knowledge, the ties that bind them begin to fray.

After decades without answers, who knows where the trail might lead? And will knowing the answers be the very thing that breaks Frankie irreparably?

Follow Mari Hannah

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro and Welcome
• 14:49 Embracing Spring: A Writer's Reflections
• 35:23 Journey to Publishing: Mary’s Path
• 56:30 Experiences that Influence Writing
• 1:42:15 The Importance of Prologues
• 1:53:02 Building Characters and Series Development
• 2:07:45 Inspirations Behind her Latest Book
• 2:21:00 The Ups and Downs of Being an Author
• 2:35:42 Connecting with Readers: Events and Festivals

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I had some scary moments, and those are the kinds of things that I've lived through that I bring to my writing as well, and I think that they lift off the page because they're pretty real. You know, I've been in those situations.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. And can I tell you right now, as I record this intro, the sun is shining, it's a warm day, spring has arrived and it's absolutely amazing. This is what we want. It makes such a big difference when you know it's not going to be pitch black at four o'clock in the afternoon, when the sun is still shining, and you know the days are starting to get a little bit warmer. And you're looking at the trees and they're no longer but naked because they've got little blossoms starting to grow. But you know that normally means my hay fever is about to kick in. But you know, know, I'll take it, I'll sacrifice the itchy eyes and the nasal sprays just for extended daylight and warmer days. And what I love about this time of year is also that this podcast is still going and it means I have so many amazing conversations lined up until I think the season ends around the summer season three. But there's so many guests I've got lined up and I can't wait to talk to them and I can't wait for you to hear the conversations. And, yeah, if you are listening, as is my request always, please follow me on social media and share the episodes and review the episodes. And if you're listening, on spotify, you can leave comments and I always see the comments and I reply to the comments. And also don't forget to support the podcast on ko-fi simply by buying me a cup of coffee. The links are in the show notes. And also you can buy the books of all of my guests on my bookstore on bookshoporg. Again, the links are in the show notes. Now let's get on with the show.

Speaker 2: 2:16

This week I'm in conversation with best-selling and prolific author Mary Hanna. Her new book, her Sister's Killer, is out on Thursday. Her career's in law. Mary worked in probation and, as you all know, I was a criminal defence lawyer. We do reminisce a bit about our times in the criminal courts, but in addition to that, in today's conversation, mary Hanna and I talk about how her previous job as a probation officer prepared her for a life as a writer, how a decision not to be a victim led to her writing career and what happens when a publisher asks for their money back. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Mary Hannah, welcome to the Conversation, thank you, thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 1: 3:09

I'm sorry. I was a bit late to the party.

Speaker 2: 3:13

Yeah, mary left me all on my own, like Billy No-Mates, in the corner just waiting for her. But now she's here, I am All right. Mary, my first question for you is how would you describe your writing journey?

Speaker 1: 3:27

Long? That's the short answer. No, it took me a long, long time to find an agent first of all, and then to find a publisher. I thought once I had Ollie Agent, our lovely Ollie Agent, who obviously represents you too. I thought that it would be a very short journey, but the book went out and came back and there were lovely, lovely things said about it.

Speaker 1: 3:55

But actually I think that you know, it's a risk-averse business that we're in, and my first book had a gay protagonist as a main character rather than an add on. I think if she'd been the sergeant and somebody else had been the DI, she would have been OK. But yeah, I was getting rejections time and again and, strangely enough, I was published in Germany first. Were you really yeah, before I found the home market. I was published in Germany first. Well, you really yeah, before I found the home market. Um, I was published in Germany and so it was. That was amazing but very unusual, because I felt, you know, and I actually got in my car and drove all the way to Cologne to see my book on a shelf because it was.

Speaker 2: 4:39

I'd waited a long time and um it wasn't just a trip to, to, you know, waterstones or the supermarket?

Speaker 1: 4:48

No, it was definitely not so. So I had a new little golf and I thought, oh, that'll take me all the way there. So I went all the way there for the lady in the shop to say, yes, but it won't be coming in until next week. No, so that was like first author fail. Oh my.

Speaker 2: 5:09

I don't even know what to say to that. I know it's just it's cruel.

Speaker 1: 5:13

I just was desperate, I was really desperate to see it, you know, on the shelf and yeah, I mean I wanted to burst into tears but I actually burst out laughing because I thought this was funny. So I had a lovely weekend in Cologne and then came home but actually the second book had won a prize and the first book, the Murder Wall, went onto the desk of Wayne Brooks at exactly the same time, onto the desk of Wayne Brooks at exactly the same time. So it was great because he he had, you know, extra ammo to fire away to his team. And uh, yeah, and eventually he took a three book deal. I mean, it took so long to find a publisher in the UK that actually, um, I'd written three books in that series before I was published.

Speaker 2: 6:05

I don't know if it's serendipity, this week, but I think I've had three get two conversations this week on the podcast and I've been editing another one and it's that same theme of finding the agent. And you know all the joy that comes with finding the agent, because you think that's the hard work done and everything should be, you know, should just be nice and straightforward after that. But then spending years going through the submission process, you know, going at various agents, and then you're working on the book and then you think, okay, this is it, and just waiting, literally waiting years to get a deal.

Speaker 1: 6:40

Yeah, I mean it was once, once I had Ollie. I mean I I went to Ollie. A little story before that was that I I found an independent publisher that actually lived in the north and he was going to publish my book. We went through the editing process and everything and, um, then the New Right and North agency up here chose the book for me to take out to libraries, to sort of set me on my way. And then it was just a little while before publication and I knew things should be happening and they weren't happening. I rang him up and said you know what's going on. The book was finished and he said he said I'm sorry but I can't publish you in the time of your contract. And I said, well, I'm not waiting. And then he's.

Speaker 1: 7:32

And then, and I had this sort of sorry tale to tell Ollie when I first met him about what my experience was. And then I said to him and, by the way, he wants his advance back. And he said no, he's not getting his advance, he's not getting his advance back. Leave that with me. He said so. So that was. You know that that was uh before we found um, wayne Brooks at uh, pan Macmillan took me on this three book, uh deal which was fantastic, I would say this is just so much like open mouth moments and like the first five minutes, because it's you know the whole thing.

Speaker 2: 8:10

Like your, your fear as an author is that you won't be able to deliver on time and, for whatever reason, you just won't be able to deliver the book, and that, well, that puts you in breach of your contract. And then your publishers ask for the money back. You're not expecting your publisher to turn around and say, well, we haven't done our job properly, but can we have our money back?

Speaker 1: 8:28

I would have said no. I did say no. I well, I didn't like. I don't think I actually said no to him because it came in an email well, if you're not publishing with us, then I want my money back. And I was going like, no, no, I got in touch with Ollie. No, no. Ollie said straight away you know, just leave it with me, there's no worries, you don't have to pay this money back. I said good, because I've already spent it.

Speaker 2: 8:52

This is the thing you do, don't you? Exactly, no matter how big it is or small it is, you're like you've allocated it. And it's gone.

Speaker 1: 9:09

So, if you want it, I know, and it wasn't that much anyway, so, uh, but uh, I ended up, you know, only getting the deal with Palm Mac, which you know, which was great because obviously they're one of the top publishers and um, so I was with them for eight books and I'm with Orion now. But I've had some really down moments, some very big up moments, as well, how do you get through the down moments?

Speaker 2: 9:28

Because a lot of this journey I don't think you realise when you're first starting out. You know when it's just you alone, whoever you choose to write your book, and your main goal is just to get an agent, and you're not anticipating the possible ups and downs that come through that I said going out on submission and trying to get your book published. How did you get through it? How did you manage it?

Speaker 1: 9:52

I'm pretty strong. I um, if somebody says I can't do something, I always want to choose, you know proof that I can. And um and I, there were many times when I could have just said oh, do you know what? I'm never, this is never going to happen for me, uh, but Ollie believed in me. Uh, I think that was a lot actually to do with it. Ollie believed in me, I believed in my material, and we just kept going um, so so it was. It was brilliant. Um, you know, eventually, when you're published and then you start that sort of oh my god, all I've done is sit in my, in my office for years writing these books and suddenly I'm an expert and I'm on a stage and I've got. You know, people are asking me questions and stuff like that. And I was like I mean, I'll tell you, your audience, a story.

Speaker 1: 10:43

When I was first published, I was launched at Hexham Book Festival and they asked me. The lady who was interviewing me said can you give us a few clips of what you'll be reading? So I said reading and she said yeah, yeah, just a few clips out of the book that you might like to read so we can break up the conversation and I said I'm not going to read. And she said what do you mean? You're not going to read? You're going to be an author. Of course you're going to read. I don't. I don't think people do it as much now, but I was like, no, I'm not going to read. I was terrified and um, and she actually went away and got a northeast um actor to come and read my words on that stage and while I was sitting there I was thinking she's good, I could do that. So. So that was the last time I had anyone read out loud for me, but it was an unusual thing. Let me put it that way.

Speaker 2: 11:49

But the thing is that and it sounds odd thing to say but when you're writing you're not thinking about one going out and doing festivals at some point and you're not thinking about going out and reading bits of your book to anyone. The only time I've used to read books when I've got way back when, when I was working in the bookshop when I was at uni and for some reason, manager decided that I should do the children's story time. So I used to read to the. I used to read to the little kids. You know the parents would just it was different time. Parents would just dump the children on the carpet and they'd go off and do whatever and I'd read We'll just leave them with Nadine. Yeah, literally it was like we'll just leave them with Nadine, she'll read the stories and then I'll come back in half an hour. 40 minutes.

Speaker 1: 12:34

I love reading to kids though, don't you? Yeah, I do.

Speaker 2: 12:38

I did used to enjoy it, their little faces. But even a couple of weeks ago it must be about a month ago I did an event and the furthest thing from my mind was reading my book. I didn't even have a copy of my book because I'm doing the event and it's for someone else's launch, so it's not really about me. But we're on a panel together and then, um, the chair yeah, the chair said so, we're gonna hear you're all gonna do a reading from your book.

Speaker 1: 13:04

No, I, I'm not. I don't like it. I really don't like it when they spring it on you. Yeah, they ask you beforehand yeah, are you published in Germany? You must be. Yeah, yeah, have you been to the festivals over there? No, I've never been, right. Well, I went to a festival in Germany and somebody did warn me. They want you to read, that's all they want, and they give you like 40 minutes to read. I was like what? That is a long time, but I did. I did it and I enjoyed it. And they asked questions afterwards. But they're so. They're such a massive reading. You know public, but they're quite happy to sit there and listen to the author read out their work for all that time. I mean, a five minute read is quite long. A 10 minute read, I always think, is too long because you'd like putting people to sleep nearly. I mean, people don't want to sit still for that long. But not in Germany. It's completely different. They want you to read and read and read.

Speaker 2: 14:09

I mean, there's like two things to it. It's like, firstly, I didn't realize how big like the crime market or the appetite is for crime fiction is in Germany until I hadn't even signed yet. I think I was still doing the course and I think Steph Broadbridge came in and did a talk and she was talking about the German market. I think I could get it wrong, but I'm sure she got signed in Germany first and we were like Germany just seems. It just seems so random, but the market is, the appetite is so big for crime fiction out there, absolutely yeah. And the second thing I always say to the baby lawyers when I'm teaching, like I've never done a closing. Well, that's a lie. But more often than not my closing speeches before a jury I said on average maybe 20 to 30 minutes. The only time I've done one longer and it went on for an hour and a bit was because it was a multi-hat. Seven, seven defendants was a multi-hag case, yeah so.

Speaker 2: 15:03

And the trial went on for about six, seven weeks, so it was a multi-hack. Seven, seven defendants was a multi-hack case, yeah so, and the trial went on for about six, seven weeks, so it was always going to be long, but on average like 20 25 minutes. So to sit there and read for 40 minutes I know it's a, it's a long time.

Speaker 1: 15:19

I mean, I was sat, I wasn't stood up, but um I know strangely you should talk about a court and you know stuff. It took place in a courtroom and I was sitting where the judge would normally sit. It was great, it was tubing and festival and it was absolutely wonderful, uh, and a lovely place as well, but yeah, but I hadn't ever sat in a judge's chair before. Obviously, I've been expert witnesses, as in. I stand there and defend what I'd said in a court report when I was a probation officer.

Speaker 1: 15:58

But yeah, it was, it was lovely to get the invitation. Yeah, it was lovely to get the invitation and you know they were just lovely to me when I was over there, Really welcoming. I think I made lots of friends you will see when you get there.

Speaker 2: 16:17

I mean getting the invite to any festival. I think the first time I got one I was like, oh, this is different. I just wasn't expecting it, but it is an important part of, I say, being a writer, being an author going out to these events, yeah, and having that contact with your readers.

Speaker 1: 16:34

I think that close contact is the thing that I miss most during COVID and you know, when we all had to go on onto Zoom and talk to people, and I know you can see people, but it's just not the same. It isn't the same. I remember interviewing Michael Connolly during that time at the bookshop. I was on my own in the bookshop just interviewing him, just so that things kept going, you know, and keep kept going. But I did miss the actual people, uh, coming up and chatting with you and asking questions, and you know they're, they're so, they're so like they love plot and they, you know, they love to unpick a book, don't they? And, and oftentimes they'll they'll mention something that I've forgotten. You know, when you went to Whitley Bay no, I don't remember that with Bright, he was drunk and da da, da, da da, you know and then I go oh yes, I remember now.

Speaker 1: 17:41

It wasn't Whitley Bay, it was Time Mouth.

Speaker 2: 17:44

It's so funny when it happens. So it happened to me. It was. I was at Harrogate on the stage, and then someone stands up and asks their question and it's about the first book, the jigsaw man, and they're asking about this character called Carol. I Mary, I have no recollection of a Carol. I might. I didn't put a Carol in the book. And literally I'm listening and I'm sitting in my head thinking, nope, there's no carol in my book. I don't know what they're talking. I don't know how I'm going to answer this question. Clearly they've got me mixed up with someone else and then it's like a light bulb.

Speaker 2: 18:13

Oh, yeah, exactly it just clicks, yeah, like she's very dead and I had to dig her up. Oh yeah, carol yeah, exactly the price Once you got into the publishing industry, once you got signed with Pan Macmillan. What surprised you most about it?

Speaker 1: 18:34

Well, I thought I knew the industry quite well because I'd done my homework before I entered it.

Speaker 1: 18:40

But I realised that I didn't know much at all. I didn't realise how many books, how many people were involved in putting your book together, for example. I mean, I don't know about your publisher, but mine lists everybody who's had anything to do with the book. You know the cover designer, everybody. I like that though. It is lovely, it is great and it should be there actually.

Speaker 1: 19:06

Um, but, yes, um, I remember going into Pan Macmillan's um offices when I was first published and they um took me into the boardroom and there was champagne glasses.

Speaker 1: 19:19

It was so lovely and they that, one by one, all the staff who were going to work on my books were shown in and they gave their names and their job titles and this, that and the other. And I thought by the time I got to the fourth one, I couldn't remember the first one, by the time I got to the 40th one, that was like I was like so knocked out um by they all just had one person to to remember, and I had all of them to him and I actually never saw a lot of them again. Um, I think it. I don't know about you, but um, I don't because I live in the in Northumberland. I'm a long way from central London where most of the publishers have their uh, their offices, um, and so I don't see, I don't think I went back to Pan Mac other than to give a little chat to newbie writers um some years later. So I never really met those people. But it is nice that they're listed in the back of the book, and rightly so yeah, no, it is.

Speaker 2: 20:24

But I think the thing I realised about publishing as well is that this is mainly for the people who are working within it. So whether it's the publicists or editors or those in marketing, basically everyone, people do move around a lot. Oh, yeah, they do, and I'm not used to that. From previous working in law, I think people are very much. They're more stable. So, you know, if you found a solicitor who's been working from I don't know Smith and Co last year, most likely they've been working there for the last 15, 20 years, it's, they don't people don't see, even embarrasses.

Speaker 2: 20:58

They don't seem to move around chambers that regularly so that I think that was a surprise to me how I could have someone like for one book not my editor. I've been lucky. I've had the same editor for my book series uh, you know, with a publisher I could have one publisher and it's a big deal.

Speaker 1: 21:14

And it is a big deal when, when you're working with somebody and you get on really well with them, yeah, and you know, and then there's a big change and often that chain change comes quite quickly. I feel as if you know, and then there's a big change, and often that change comes quite quickly. I feel as if you know you'll get an email and say you know your publicist is moving on next week. You go what. I was going to be talking to them yesterday. That's exactly what it is.

Speaker 2: 21:37

Those are the emails You're like, oh, but I don't want you to go because we get on and I like you yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:42

I think that's really interesting for your audience, really, because you don't know, do you? When you start, you have no idea at all about you know those kinds of you know decisions that people make and, yeah, you know there's so many. Um, everybody wants to be promoted and everybody wants to, you know, have a varied career and why not? But, um, they do change. They seem to change a lot. It's like butterflies floating in and they do.

Speaker 2: 22:11

They flutter in and out of your life. There's a lot of heartbreak. You'll get the email you're like, oh, I've been done, but it's not, you're not done. You know they're moving on for their own personal career ambitions, but it's still a bit. It still hurts a bit. Do you think I haven't asked this question in a while? Do you think there's anything in your job, your previous job, when you're working in probation, that has prepared you in any way for this?

Speaker 1: 22:34

oh, definitely I mean apart, apart from the fact that you know my job, I, you know everything about the criminal justice system was my job, so I spoke a lot to lawyers, police, social workers, prison officers you name it all of that but also in terms of writing, writing court reports and the lengthy documents and they have a beginning, middle and end, and also you know they have to make sense, just like a book that was very transferable actually to bring you know. They have to make sense, just like a book that was very transferable actually to bring you know, to bring all of their life. You had to discuss their life, their background, all of that for a judge and then come up with some credible kind of reason why they should not go to prison or why they should. Now I work with some. I was talking to somebody about this the other day. I work with some probation officers who would never recommend prison at all and I didn't agree with that at all.

Speaker 2: 23:40

Yeah and um, I mean I sorry like I had psrs, so pre-sentence reports and sometimes the recommendation, I mean they were ridiculous. I'm not saying all, but sometimes you'd read them and go. This is ridiculous. Like even I know that you're saying no prison.

Speaker 1: 23:55

I'm like he's going to prison because the guidelines say so, and that's where he should be. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:02

But not not to make a recommendation. I can't imagine a judge saying they be like well, where's recommendation? This report's not finished yeah, it's, it's crazy.

Speaker 1: 24:12

It is crazy and it's as crazy, as I worked in prison for three years. Um, you know people making a. You know when we, when you go and talk about parole, everybody's there there's a.

Speaker 1: 24:26

You know there's a panel of you and often we don't agree with each other yeah but if you say in a scenario like that that I just think this person shouldn't be paroled, they're not taking their sentence seriously. They're not prepared to discuss their offending in any meaningful way. They don't even admit that they did what they're in for and I would not recommend somebody's early release on that basis. But you know, it's just one of those kind of things that you don't realize until you go into the job. I mean, you being a lawyer, you know you'd have seen every kind of offender go through Were you a criminal lawyer.

Speaker 2: 25:12

Yeah, criminal.

Speaker 1: 25:13

Yeah, yeah. So but apart, apart from all of those things, I think it's the I've. I've bring my experience to my work in ways that are not like I don't mean I would ever, ever use a real case to put a story around, but certainly I had experiences that were quite frightening at times, because we don't go around like coppers do double crude, we're on our own. Sometimes you'll go into their houses. They're drunk, they're high on drugs, I had some scary moments, and those are the kinds of things that I've lived through that I bring to my writing as well, and I think that they lift off the page because they're pretty real. You know, I've been. I've been in those situations. So so, yeah, at that, plus, as I say, the putting together reports and writing about people, that was the first really official kind of writing that I'd ever done in my life.

Speaker 2: 26:23

um, this is a silly question. They do train you, I mean teach you how to put these reports together.

Speaker 1: 26:29

Yes, they do. Now they don't even have to go to university. I went and did a CQSW, which is a Certificate of Qualification, Social Work because that was what you had to do when I joined. I was home office sponsored, so it was brilliant. I was paid while I was training. So you know like I had a grounding in law and sociology and psychology and that was really you needed it, you to do the job, you needed it. And then all of a sudden they decided, the Home Secretary decided that that wasn't a thing anymore. There was no that people like me could train on the job. You can't.

Speaker 2: 27:22

It's not right.

Speaker 1: 27:22

I don't think people realize that now. Um, but yeah, it used to be a two or three year course at university before you could become a probation officer, and now people just apply for a job and would shadow an officer. It's not the same thing no, and we're not.

Speaker 2: 27:44

You know we're not from my point of view. You know from defense and the amount I didn't train, I mean I had, you know, as a trainee solicitor. So you're training for two years. Um, you're not going to court, but you are training for two years.

Speaker 2: 27:57

If you're doing criminal and I was doing criminal law so you know, I'm in and out of police. You might say I lived in a police station for about a year as far as I'm concerned, but I'm in and out of police. You might say I lived in a police station for about a year as far as I'm concerned, but you're in and out of police stations. You're dealing with all sorts of people. You're seeing every single I don't know every single part fragment of society, like you have a window into it. And then I mean you learn on your feet as a criminal solicitor, like with a first day qualification. That's the first day you're going to court but in terms of, you know, preparing cases and taking instructions from clients and then learning how to tell a story. Because that's basically what you you're always doing as a lawyer, especially a criminal lawyer and a trial lawyer. You're always telling your client's story. But the thought of going into that with no training whatsoever and a job like that even it's also risky to the public?

Speaker 1: 28:50

yeah, and I think it was. It was a a bad choice, um, I think that now the qualification is gone, it won't be back. Um, I mean I'm talking years ago. I joined the probation service in 1983, so you know, then we were trained. Now you're not, and you know you're talking. I mean probation officers have to deal with big crime and the prison I worked in was a young offenders institution called Castington and we only actually worked with people who were in there. We're doing six years to life, so we're not talking about, you know, thieving a piece of cheese from Tesco or anything. These are serious assaults.

Speaker 2: 29:42

Rape, yeah you know, and murder, obviously, I mean um, and then, but but then you've got when you're in a field team, you're actually supervising people, um, who are out on life license and you know that in itself is is quite, you know, quite simple yeah, I think the one important I say one important thing, but one of the most important things that being a criminal solicitor taught me, especially literally my early days, in my baby days going to court was just not to make assumptions about people and not assume that someone charged with a specific offence, so, whether it was drink, driving or assault, that they're going to look or behave a certain way.

Speaker 1: 30:28

Absolutely. They don't have horns, do they? There's no like, exactly there's no like, oh like all the hamburglar in mcdonald's like they don't.

Speaker 1: 30:38

They're not wearing the black and gray striped shirt exactly not yeah but I mean, you know that there are some nice, nice good stories. I was doing an event at Newcastle Library once and this lady came up to me at the front and she said can I just have a word? And I said yes, of course. And she said you used to be my son's probation officer. And I thought, oh God, what's she going to say? Maybe I wasn't very popular with some. And she said well, I was reading your book and I happened to call him. He lives in America. And I said, um, that I'm reading this book. I'll send it to you because it's really great and you'll really enjoy it. And so he'd said well, who, who, who's the author? I'll get a copy. No, no, she said I'll send it.

Speaker 1: 31:24

Her name's's Marie Hanna. And he said Mom, that was my probation officer. She said I just wanted to tell you now that he's living in New York and he's a millionaire. I was going well, strike one for Marie, because you don't ever know when people you know there's always that revolving door where people are going in and out of prison and you think you've worked really hard with them, and they go out with all good intentions and then somebody gives them some drugs or whatever. And they're back to the you know thieving or whatever. But you, you know you never, you know you don't really get the feedback. But that one piece of feedback made me think that, you know, I must have done some good with some clients.

Speaker 2: 32:09

Yeah, no, you did. And so the moments are far and few between, but when they happen, like I mean I got horrible moments Like I can't believe. Like it happened to me, like in my first year of qualification it wasn't even my first year, it was literally in like the first six months and I remember my boss at the time was like I've never heard this of this happening to anyone. I had four clients die on me in like the first six months of qualification. Yeah, all for various. One got literally, one got run over by a prison van, another one, no, two of them drug overdoses, and one had an epileptic fit in the bath. And anyone else I reckon they probably would have you have to be into a mindset always say to do this job, they would have just given it up. I still see my boss looking at me like when I told him like the fourth one had died, he's like I've never seen that happen to anyone and you've only. You're only like six months post-qualification.

Speaker 2: 33:06

But then I got the really nice moments of, um, I say one of my kids I and he was, he was such a good kid and it was one of these things you know, hanging around with the wrong friends and he's at a friend's house and a fight breaks out. Someone gets stabbed, everyone gets arrested and he's only 17, never been, never been in trouble, before they remand him into custody pending trial. I do the trial and I always used to talk to him like I don't want, like you, I know you don't need to be here. This is this is not you like, sort your life out, like stay when, if you get, you know, if you get out, stay away from these friends, change things. And then we get, he gets off. So you know, no, no conviction. He disappears. And then about four years later, I get an email from him and he's like I don't know if you remember me, but I didn't forget what you said and just wanted to let you know. I just graduated from uni, got my business degree, and I was like isn't it good?

Speaker 2: 34:03

yeah, so you do get my, you do get moments yeah, definitely, definitely listeners.

Speaker 2: 34:09

It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. So, mary, when you finally got your publishing deal right, if someone had told you back then, after going through all the ups and downs of getting your deal, all those rejections, if someone had told you that you would be writing your sixth well, not writing it, your 16th book would be coming out. What would you have said to them?

Speaker 1: 34:48

I only ever wanted to write one book. It was like a love it. Honestly, it was like a love letter to my partner, who was a detective before she retired and, um, but, like I said, I got the book and and I did, I did all sorts of things while I was waiting to be published. I went off and did some screenwriting, I did all sorts of stuff and, um, yeah, I, I would have died, you know, and I would have just thought I used to go into, I used to go into bookshops and we've all done this. Haven't we, as baby writers, gone into a bookshop and you've seen your one spine, yeah, standing there, and then you go, you look at Michael Connelly's and it's a whole shelf full but yeah, I mean now, yeah, I go in and I look at mine and I think, god, did I write all that, you know?

Speaker 1: 35:41

and I, I just got the book. And I not only that, mean the awards that came. You know, I've won five major awards and I think the biggest turning point for me was when they asked me would I chair the Seepson's Old Peculiar Crime Writing Festival. And I was like, seven years after I was published, and only 20 people or 19 people, I think, think at the time had done it for me. I was like, wow, that that was a big moment for me, a really big moment.

Speaker 1: 36:15

But yeah, I mean I've, I haven't quite like, I haven't quite finished yet, because I'm, I'm in active development with Kate Daniels for TV and I'm under option for the Stolen Oliver series with Buccaneer Media, which is brilliant as well.

Speaker 1: 36:41

So, yeah, if I see my characters on screen and I like it, you like it, um, and I like it, I'm not, I'm not actually writing um, the Kate Daniels stuff, but I will be writing some of the Stone and Oliver stuff, yeah, myself, because I've, I've, you know, I've explained that I had been a, um, a screenwriter at one point. Uh, I was I. At one point I had a foot in two camps, so it was either books or it was tech tv, and I didn't know which was going to kick off and it just so happened that the books is what kicked off first. But, um, yeah, if I, if I get to see, if I live long enough, nadine, to see my characters on screen, um, I will be chuffed and that that that'll do me, I, I'll be very, I could die happy then you know what the backlist thing?

Speaker 2: 37:35

it's so funny because I, I don't, I wasn't thinking about it, like when the third book came out last year. Like I, just, I just wasn't thinking about it until the paperbacks came out and someone, I think I got tagged in on something on Instagram and it was my books on the shelf, like in in the bookshop, and I and I went, oh, I've got a backlist when before it?

Speaker 2: 37:58

is. It's so nice because you know you have that moment when it's just your. It's your one book and if you're lucky you might be on the table in Waterstone. So you see a stack of them or you just seen that one. You know your one book, the Spine amongst all the others. So that is an amazing and it is an amazing moment.

Speaker 1: 38:16

It is, and I mean, I only became a writer because I was assaulted at work I don't know if you know that, but it's a long time ago and then they let me go on a medical pension. I literally was not going to be a victim.

Speaker 2: 38:35

I just thought no.

Speaker 1: 38:35

I've got. There's more to life than sit at home and feel sorry for yourself. So I started to write as physical therapy for a wrist injury serious wrist injury, right wrist as well which is bad, but yes, so I became a writer by accident rather than design actually did. I don't know about you, I mean how how did you start?

Speaker 2: 38:55

no, I always wanted well, I'm gonna ask you about this but I always wanted to write, like I've always. I think I've always had that bug and love books. But then I said I knew I was, I knew I wanted to be a solicitor, so and you know, that's, that's a clear path in your head, you know you go. You know the steps to do that. You go to uni, you get the training contract, you qualify, you become a, you become a lawyer.

Speaker 2: 39:18

Um, but you're still a lawyer not I don't, I don't practice now no right, yeah, I, I, I can. I commend people who do practice and write full-time because it's, it's a lot, but writing is a full-time job, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 39:34

yeah right, writing is writing is a full-time.

Speaker 2: 39:36

Yeah it, it just is. But I knew, I think instinctively, I knew I always wanted to write and I always imagined myself writing a book. And then life just worked out the way it did and I found myself. And then life just worked out the way it did and I found myself able to. But everything, that's everything that's happened, um, in the last, let's say last six, seven, eight years, I didn't, I didn't anticipate it or even think about it. It was just a this is just something I'm doing and let's just see. But it's what I want to know. But when did you know you could a story? Because it's one thing to say, I'm doing this as therapy, but instinctively, you must have just been a feeling there that you can tell a story.

Speaker 1: 40:17

Well, like I said, I didn't even think about being a writer, but I used to write little poetry odes for people's birthdays and put them in their birthday card and things like that. So there was obviously a little writer in their birthday card and things like that. So there was obviously a little writer in me, inside of me, that wanted to come out, but I never thought for one minute and I really honestly did not know for one minute. But I got. When I got feedback, even though people were saying I'm sorry, but this is a pass, I mean, olly used to say to me a pass is still a pass. I know it hurts, but we'll just move on to the next one and the next one, but I think the feedback that I was getting was so good I thought I've got something here and I've worked so hard to do it and I didn't start.

Speaker 1: 41:07

I can't tell you what age I was when I started, because that would kind of give my age away. But um, and I never do that. Somebody asked me that the other day would you like, would you mind telling me what age you are? And I went yes, no, and uh, just a ballpark figure, nope, nope. So anyway, um, yes, so I think the feedback from those I just knew and I knew that when I won the the new, there's a um northern writers award. I won for settled blood, which was the second book in the Kate Daniels series. Um, when I won that, I knew, I knew and I just kept going but didn't you know when Ollie signed you?

Speaker 2: 41:49

And we keep talking about Ollie and Ollie's, our agent, ollie Munson, who's brilliant, but didn't you realise? I mean because you get, that's always the big step, that big hurdle to get an agent. So that should be validation, shouldn't?

Speaker 1: 42:01

it. It was validation. And I mean he was amazing because after this unfortunate incident with the first publisher, the indie publisher that I had, I went to London with some writers from the Northeast they do New Writing North, the agency for new writers here. They do this little soiree with their publishers and agents in London to introduce people that they're working with. And they said they would take me.

Speaker 1: 42:34

And so that's where I met him and I told him my tale of woe and thought he would just go, yeah, yeah, and go away. But he didn't. He said oh, yeah, yeah, send it to me. Um, send me the first three chapters and I'll have a look. So I sent the first three chapters and he said right, okay, I've read them, I love, love it. Um, just send me the first three chapters and I'll have a look. So I sent him the first three chapters and he said right, ok, I've read them, I love it, just send me the rest.

Speaker 1: 42:52

And he said to me he rang me he must be a very fast reader, because he rang me the next day, I think and he said I was up till three o'clock this morning reading this in my bathroom so as not to wake my wife morning reading this in my bathroom so as not to wake my wife, and he said um, and I and I'd had a bit of an experience with another agent before that who said she wanted to represent me.

Speaker 1: 43:16

And then, after a couple of years of saying I want your material exclusively, um, and we'll work on it together she bowed out. And when Ollie said he liked my work, he said to me the only thing is it needs a bit of work. And I said yeah, I appreciate that I can do the work, but what you're asking for is everything the previous agent told me to take out. And he said you haven't thrown away the drafts, have you? And I went no, no, I'm not that stupid, but that was what it was. So he said. And I said I don't want to do that without representation. He said no, no, the letter's in the post, so that would be great.

Speaker 2: 44:00

He is a good agent. Did you? I remember right, because you know you write more than one series? And I remember when I met Ollie it would have been, yeah, the first time I met Ollie and he asked me if it was a series. And I and I've never, I've never lied about this. It was obviously, except at the time when I said, yes, it was a series, but I was not planning for it to be a series, I'd just written the one book. So I just said, yeah, it's a series, and then I pitched him something for the second book did. Did you know you were going to be writing a series or were you just taking it one book at a?

Speaker 1: 44:29

time. Well, I just took it one book at a time and at the time I think series was the thing. You know, writing goes in different ways, doesn't it? And you know, certain things are in and then they're out and something else takes its place. But series were definitely in.

Speaker 1: 44:49

But it happened with me with um, a book that I decided to write. While I was writing the Kate Daniels series, I came up with this idea um, actually something my partner said to me and made me like, run upstairs and start writing this standalone that I didn't know whether I could ever sell or what have you. And I got it finished and it was a standalone, definitely. And it wasn't until it went to the US. They wanted a second one in the series, so I ended up writing two. I haven't ever written a third because I haven't had time, because since then I've changed publisher. They wanted me to write something new. So I've got three series on the go, but I haven't written a Ryan and O'Neill for a while you know, it made me laugh right when I see Ryan and O'Neill and I know you're gonna say I know, yeah, every I was, like it has, to be a conscious decision.

Speaker 2: 45:44

It wasn't just a fluke it wasn't, honestly.

Speaker 1: 45:47

I can honestly tell you that somebody, somebody in the audience, once said to me what is it? What is it with you, with the stone and oliver and the this something? And I said you know what? Until you said that I never even crossed my mind. Are you seriously? I'm serious, honestly, I would tell you if it was true. But, um, yeah, very bizarre, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 46:08

I'm look, it's so bizarre because, even because I've got it written down in my notes and I'm like Stone and Oliver and I've written since I'm like, well, that's Oliver Stone, director Ryan O'Neill well, it's not Ryan. I know it's Ryan and O'Neill and I'm like, well, ryan O'Neill, the actor. I'm like it must have been a conscious decision. I mean sometimes. I mean because I know, when I spend so much time thinking about character names, because you know you don't want to have the same, you know four characters with a name, both beginning with R. So I'm always constantly thinking about it and going through the baby name books.

Speaker 1: 46:40

And sometimes I'd be the same.

Speaker 2: 46:42

Yeah, or sometimes I'd be like OK, literally I've gone through football teams Like whose name can I, whose name can I use? So you know, it's so much thought goes into. I'm like there's no way, that was just a fluke.

Speaker 1: 46:52

you're saying it was it was, it really it really was, and I'll tell you why I can. I can explain why David David Stone is a very yeah he's a. He's a really, um, nice guy. He's a quiet, quite quietly spoken, he doesn't really lose his rug, he's a good cop and um, but I and I wanted him to have a name that was completely against what his character gives you.

Speaker 1: 47:22

So it's not hard at all, there's nothing hard about Stone, so I gave him the name Stone, having already created Frankie Oliver, who's a third generation cop. Yeah, my partner knows people who you know, there's three generations of cops in their family and what have you. And I just thought it would make her a bit different from Kate Daniels who, yeah, doesn't get on with their family and Frankie Oliver does completely, you know, she's a very family, yeah, person you know well, whilst we were talking about Frankie Oliver and David Stone, I need to stop laughing.

Speaker 2: 48:04

Stone and Oliver, it's not anyway. Anyway, I told myself to give up. Would you like to tell the audience about her sister's killer, which is book number 16, which I think is amazing?

Speaker 1: 48:15

yeah, um. Well, the inspiration behind the book was to pay off what I set up um at the beginning with with, uh, frankie, um, I gave both stone and oliver you quite sad backstories, and my books can all be read as a standalone. I always give a little sort of hint of what's gone on before so that I don't bore readers that are with me already.

Speaker 1: 48:41

But you know, readers of the series know that when Frankie Oliver was 11, her sister was murdered. Readers of the series know that when Frankie Oliver was 11, her sister was murdered and that case has remained open and unsolved for a long time. So I knew from the outset that because she was related to the victim she could not investigate her own sister's murder. So very consciously in the previous book, blackfell, I kind of separated her a little from David and I and she's promoted from DS to to um inspector and of course you can't be, uh, promoted from DS to DI. So I had to take her out, put her in uniform before she could come back as a DI in the murder investigation team. So I kind of at the end of Blackfell I left it on a bit of a cliffhanger. She's getting quite close to Stone. She knows she's going away, she's going off to Berwick to do a uniform post and they were getting on famously. And while they're at the party David Stone hears something that disturbs him enough to leave and he does and he just disappears and this is how her sister's killer opens and it disturbs him enough to reopen the case. He's not sure what he's overheard was just people mouthing off at a party, you know, having had too much to drink or what have you. He knows he's got to chase it up, so he does that.

Speaker 1: 50:22

So this book is that the two of them are separated slightly. Frankie has a case that she's come across, which is a child trafficking case that she gets embroiled in, and in the meantime, david has reopened her sister's case and has to do it under the radar, for obvious reasons, um, and he only works with one person doing that, but Frankie being Frankie, she's wondering why on earth is she getting the cold shoulder? And why? Why, you know, why is he not like talking to her anymore? Um, and starts to dig and she's asking around and you know what have I? You know, my nose is out of joint. What's happened? You know? Why is he treating me like this and all of that?

Speaker 1: 51:11

So, so there's a big mess between the two of them because their relationship has grown closer and closer and now I've like split them apart a little bit, um, but yeah, so that I always knew that I would have to write that story and, to be honest with you, nadine, I wasn't quite sure when I was going to write it until kind of halfway through the, the previous book, when I took them off to Iceland on in pursuit of a group of kids who had possibly committed a murder in um, in Kielder, at Kielder, where we live, near where we live and um, and then he gets called back. So they have been separated then and got together at the party and then this book kicks off from the very moment the last one ended. And I thought it was good to do that, because Stone has a difficult backstory of his own which I dealt with early and I think it was book two or three um. But I think the other thing I want to do was because, obviously, um, I've had close contact with uh offenders but also with victims and I kind of know that how.

Speaker 1: 52:21

You know, I've got first-hand experience of how devastating it is when someone dies suddenly and it's not an accident. It's bad enough when it's an accident, but when it's like on purpose, you know the ripple effect that goes out across all family. I mean you will have come across this in your work. It's horrendous, um, and I want and and and we've all always seen um frankie, frankie Oliver's family as coping with this dreadful trauma that has befallen them. But in this book you see it more, you feel it more and for the first time you see Frank actually turning up at his sister's murder not knowing that it's her.

Speaker 2: 53:12

You know, you know the way you talk about it and you can hear all the emotion behind it. And when I was reading the prologue and it's funny because you know the prologue is just the prologue, it's not the whole story and you can argue it's just. It's just, it's just a small moment in time, it's not like, but it is a small and it's such a pivotal moment. But it's also so powerful because I was saying to someone yesterday, when I was doing recording this podcast, and I say it's those moments that make you I was in bed reading this book but it's those moments that make you sit up in bed and gasp and I was like I could feel it in my chest the moment.

Speaker 2: 53:50

No, but the moment yeah, but the moment when Frank and it's not a spoiler, because literally in the opening pages but at the moment when Frank literally starts to see the body and he realized who it is and then he lets out this guttural scream yeah, yeah like I just felt like I could, I feel like I could hear it yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I know what you mean.

Speaker 1: 54:11

And actually, um Orion were really lovely and and let me put, uh, the audio clip out of the prologue and people have come back and gone. Wow, actually, my, my son's reading the book now and he, as soon as he got it, he got home and he must have read the prologue straight away. And he came back and he said mom, that is really amazing, that opening.

Speaker 2: 54:33

So it is thank you, and the thing is like you always hit like I'll see it all the time and whatever writing group or online talking people and you'll hear the argument. Oh, I don't see the point of prologues. Why have you got a problem?

Speaker 2: 54:46

I mean, I always, I always throw a prologue in. I don't actually, to be fair, I think the last book the coolest because it's a flashback scene which I kind of count as a prologue because of, yeah it goes, it's flashback to like 25 years ago. But I think prologues have a point.

Speaker 1: 55:03

There is like a need for them, but they can't just be there just to, you know, fill up some space no, I think that was my editor's um choice as well, because she um, she hadn't read all of the books because I had my previous editor left and and went to another publisher and when she took over I was the, the Blackfell had already been written, and then we were doing her sister's killer, which I which wasn't called her sister's killer then, but that the, the title was changed, and she said have you ever people know about the fact that he? He turned up on an ordinary shift, he was called out to this, this death, and I said they know about it. And she said have you ever taken them there, like actually taken them there? Have you actually seen the scene? Have we seen it? And I said no, and she said well, that's where you start the book. And it was her, it was Sam Eads, actually her idea, which I thought was quite inspired.

Speaker 2: 56:10

I think it's a brilliant idea because I'm telling you, anyone who reads, that you know when you're in the bookshop and you're browsing and that will be the book that will make you. You'll read the prologue and you'll be like, no, I need to take this off the shelf. I don't care how much it costs, I need to take it off the shelf.

Speaker 1: 56:26

I hope that's going to happen next week.

Speaker 2: 56:30

It will much it costs. Take it off the shelf. I hope that's gonna happen next week. It will. I'm putting it out there. Her sister, what was it called before her sister's killer?

Speaker 1: 56:35

it was called a truth more painful than murder, which I thought was very intriguing.

Speaker 2: 56:42

It's very intriguing, but it's long.

Speaker 1: 56:44

It is long. It is long and Her Sister's Killer. I mean, it does what it says on the tin, doesn't it? It does. But you know who am I? I didn't argue, I thought you know that line is. I think that line is in the book and that's why I lifted it as as my title, my original title. But and that's the other thing, you don't know we're going back to sort of being a baby writer and coming into the industry. You just don't know that your title's going to get changed.

Speaker 2: 57:15

Nope um, I said because when you know you come up with a title and you think you're, you've been original. Because I remember when I came up with the title for the jigsaw man because it was an assignment, and I always said I need to call, I just can't leave my workers, just assignment one or book six, that I need to give them some, call them something. Yeah, so I called the jigsaw man a jigsaw man. Then it turned into a book and it just stayed as the jigsaw man, yeah. And then I can't remember if it went out on submission and then I realized there's a non-fiction book called a jigsaw man and then there's a Michael Caine film called the jigsaw man. So I remember saying to my editor well, we can change it, because you know there's all these other stuff. She's like, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna keep it. And it stayed and the binding room was called something else.

Speaker 2: 57:59

That was the second book. I think it was called false prophet and I didn't like it anymore because I think a book had come out called false prophet the kill list was. I remember having a title for that. I think it was more collaborative. I called it something because to work on it, but I think it was a collaborative thing of putting or coming out of a title, and definitely the same with book four, because book four really did it. Had I called it something. But I was like I know, this is not the final title, I just need to give it.

Speaker 1: 58:27

Well, sometimes that happens, you know, and sometimes when you get a, even an English translation not an English translation, but like, go to the US with an English language book, um, they want to change it as well. I know, um, they want to change it as well. I know Monument to Murder, which is, I think, the fourth book in the Kate Dunn series, was called that. And when it went to the US they said we don't really have any monuments over here, so we're going to call it Fatal Games. And then somebody they got Mount Rushmore. I know they got so many monuments, that's what they told me. And they said that They've got Mount Rushmore, I know, I know, I know They've got so many monuments, that's what they told me. And they said that they were going to call it Fatal Games. So this lady went out and bought Fatal Games and then gave me a one-star review because she'd read the book already.

Speaker 2: 59:18

Oh, which I thought was funny.

Speaker 1: 59:22

Do you know what I mean? So now where I've got books in order on my website, I've got brackets, fatal Games, us title of the same book. Oh my.

Speaker 2: 59:34

God, the one star is, annoying, though it's like I don't mind you giving me a one star, but you've got a valid reason because you genuinely thought it was crap. But just because it came late from in, from amazon, wherever it came from, or I don't it, whatever innocuous reason that they can come up with, I'm like seriously, seriously right, but there are odd things, aren't there?

Speaker 2: 59:57

absolutely odd things there are completely right. Before I ask you your last set of questions, this is one I like to ask now about author's latest book. What was, was there a challenge in meeting? I can't do that again. Was there any challenges? In writing? Her Sister's Killer.

Speaker 1: 1:00:19

Yeah, because you know I made myself cry quite a few times. Yeah, because you know I've made myself cry quite a few times and I think if I'm crying then my audience are definitely crying. But I think that you get so emotionally. I'm an emotional person. I always have been. Ask Oli, he'll tell you that he's seen me cry quite a few times, from happiness as much as anything else, but he's, you know, it's, it's one of those things. This is a very, very emotional book, a really family oriented book that I that I felt, you know, I had to put my life and soul into it sort of thing. And and I think if you get deep into the emotions of character, it's bound to, you know, it's bound to affect you it's so weird when you get that first emotional response to a character that you created, because they, they does come.

Speaker 2: 1:01:17

There comes a point. It could be when you're writing the first book, it could be when you're writing book four, but there does come a point when you see them as fully formed human beings. They ain't that, they're not just fleeting moments on the page. And I get, I get the emotion with um, with Henley and Pelliccia who is her boss, and obviously she's married to her husband and these two should be together. And I remember writing one scene um, was it in book four? Yeah, I was writing a scene in book four and between the two of them and I literally stopped. I felt like I was watching like one of these Hallmark movies and I was just like, why are you not with him? I was like what are you two doing? And then I was like I would be with him. I was like Nadine, he's not real. But but that's literally that's how I felt Exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:02:07

They are real to you. I mean, they are real people to you. I remember I can't remember who it was now I was watching on stage once a female writer, and I think it might have been Patricia Cornwell, I'm not sure, don't quote me on that but what had happened was she got in a lift and a reader got in afterwards. I can't really tell. Was it her? Was it A terrible memory? Anyway, the author gets in the lift and this woman gets in afterwards and said why did you kill such and such and I will never read your books again why did you kill that character? Da, da, da, da, da. And I just thought well, sometimes this happens People are invested.

Speaker 1: 1:02:59

That's exactly what you're after, that's what you dream of having people who are invested in your series characters. I think it is different with series. I think it is different from a standalone, because they have got to know them so well. You can almost sit and guess what they're going to do or what they're going to say which I like, actually and then if something hurts them or somebody threatens them, they're like wow, you know? Um, but yeah, that's exactly what you're what you're aiming for, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 1:03:33

I know it was still a surprise, though, but I feel that what you always want when you're writing series characters is that you need to be. You need to be learning something new about them with every book. It could be something small, yeah, like I learned that Henley's allergic to lilies. I didn't know that in the first book, but it could be, you know, oh, she's allergic. She's allergic to lilies. And then I learned that I give him remuneration. All of a sudden, he had, like, a drug problem when he was at university. I didn't know that when I first created him, but I think you need to to be continuously discovering something new. Definitely, right and sorry.

Speaker 1: 1:04:08

I was just going to say about your series characters. Yeah, are you. I mean, people ask me this all the time. You know how many books will you write of that series? When do you see ending? Will you just keep on writing while people are enjoying it? Do you know what I mean? It's a good, it's a good question.

Speaker 2: 1:04:30

It is a good question and I think I said in the beginning I didn't know it was going to be a series, it was just this one book, until Ollie was like, is it a series? Yes, it's a series. But now I'm just like, as long as I can keep giving them good investigations to work on and I can still see them growing as individuals, then I'll just keep telling their stories for as long as possible and I'm not bored with them.

Speaker 2: 1:04:56

If I found myself getting bored or feeling like I was just being repetitive, then I would pull back, but I haven't reached that stage. Yeah, definitely, definitely, I agree. Repetitive yeah, probably I would pull back, but I haven't reached that.

Speaker 1: 1:05:05

Yeah, definitely, yeah, definitely. I agree all right.

Speaker 2: 1:05:07

So, mary, are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Speaker 1: 1:05:14

I think I'm a bit of both. Um, I think most people who know me would probably call me an extrovert, but, um, I'm really, really suited to working on my own, and when they let me out, I love to have a good time, do you know? So I'm quite happy on my in my own company, but I do like, um, I think probably I'm more of an extrovert now than I than I was before I started writing. That's because I do spend such a lot of time in my office by myself.

Speaker 2: 1:05:46

Okay. So what challenge or experience and I say it can be good or bad what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 1:05:54

uh well, I think my the assaults on me at work was you know, I went to work one day and and I didn't come home the same person and and now I'm doing what I'm absolutely happy doing.

Speaker 1: 1:06:06

I'm privileged to to be a writer. I know you feel the same, but that day changed my life, that that split second actually changed my life. And you know, I think I, I think I said to you before I wasn't going to be a, I wasn't going to be a victim, I wasn't going to let that define me, because that's where I'm like, you know, I'm quite strong like that, yeah, so that's probably the answer I would give to that, definitely.

Speaker 2: 1:06:37

If you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 1:06:44

Live your dreams and don't waste. You know, if you want to do something, get out there and do it. You know what's ahead of you, do you?

Speaker 2: 1:06:52

no, you don't, you don't. That's the thing you don't, and I think sometimes you can get so when you're that age, you can be. You can get so distracted looking at what's going on around you, with your friends and family, sometimes, that you can kind of lose focus on what you should be doing. Yes, I agree. Okay. So what is your non-writing tip for writers? Non-writing tip yeah, it could be anything. Drink water, take your vitamins.

Speaker 1: 1:07:25

Walk, I think. Walk, have the fresh air. I mean, that's what I do whenever I get the chance. I'm very, very lucky that Northunderland is a beautiful county. I love London, you know, but I love to get home. But we've got the most amazing countryside and the most amazing beaches and when I want to just chill that's where I go. I sometimes end up talking to myself as I'm walking along, because things occur to me. Um, but these days it's not so bad, is it? Everybody's talking to themselves in these.

Speaker 2: 1:08:05

Um, well, you can just assume they're on their phone, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:08:11

I remember when I first started. I'll tell you what. You couldn't talk to yourself without people looking at you oddly.

Speaker 2: 1:08:18

I can remember clear as day. The first time I saw someone talking on. It was on a bluetooth headset and I was walking down Oxford Street because I was working in Soho this is 2006 and I was walking with my must be someone I worked with yes, we're walking back towards the office and it was that. It was an actor. He I can't remember his name now, but he was in Dislife and he played Miles and he was walking in front of me and I was like he's talking. I'm like, oh, it's him. And then I was like he's talking to himself, just talking to himself. I'm like what? What's wrong with him? And then I saw he had the head.

Speaker 1: 1:08:53

He had the bluetooth headset yeah, that was the first time 2006, and now you're just like they're just everybody's doing it everyone's doing it.

Speaker 2: 1:09:01

You just wouldn't you know. But but don't you think that's?

Speaker 1: 1:09:02

a bit of a shame that everybody's doing it. Everyone's doing it. You just wouldn't you know. But but don't you think that's a bit of a shame that everybody's doing it, because actually nobody's smiling at each other when they walk along the road? You see where I live. I live in tiny little on the edge of tiny little village. When I walk down into the village everybody's saying good morning and stuff, yeah and no, no, they are not looking at their phone, talking to their phone, carrying coffee. When did that become a thing? When everybody couldn't go anywhere without having a cup of coffee?

Speaker 2: 1:09:34

in their hand. Marion, I just sit in there moaning and that winds me up. Two things wind me up about the whole phone things. When I'm driving and it's not even like it's a red light, it's whatever, it's a crossing or something, and in the person's just blind, I'm saying blindfully, just walking across the road looking down at their phone, might have a coffee in the other hand, and I'm like I'm in the car coming towards you, like yeah, you just you're not looking, you're not doing the green cross code, you're not looking left or right. No, and then the second thing that winds me up is if I'm watching reality shows, especially American ones, and I'm like why are you holding your phone? While driving? Everyone's phone connects to the car, unless you've got a really, really old car, but you're there with the phone and speaker on your hand. So that winds me up yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:10:19

It does so. Finally, Mary, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?

Speaker 1: 1:10:26

They can find me at marihannacom, which is my website. They can find me on X Blue Sky and Instagram. Yeah, that's it really.

Speaker 2: 1:10:39

You're everywhere. Basically, I am Well, mary. That just leaves me to say Mary, hannah, thank you so much for being part of the conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:10:47

Oh, do you know? It's been a pleasure because, even though we've known each other quite a while, we haven't really had a conversation. No, Because we're always at events and people are rushing here and there and everywhere. Thank you very much for inviting me, Nadine.

Speaker 2: 1:11:01

It's been lovely to talk to you thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show, and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes. And if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversationatnadiemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.