Maz Evans: Behind The Pages and Deadline Delirium

What does it really take to survive as a professional author? In this refreshingly honest conversation, bestselling and award winning Maz Evans  of 'Who Let the Gods Out' and I pull back the curtain on the realities of writing for a living.

"We aren't writers floating around in scarves," Maz declares with her characteristic wit. "We're business people running a business." This sentiment sets the tone for a discussion that reveals the genuine struggle behind the glamorous facade of publishing success. From the physical toll of deadline weeks (surviving on Uber Eats and forsaking personal grooming) to the mental exhaustion that accompanies creating a 100,000-word manuscript, both authors share their unfiltered experiences. Yet despite the challenges, Maz Evan's passion for storytelling remains undimmed. Maz shares details about her new comedy crime novel "That'll Teach You". 

For anyone who loves books or dreams of writing them, this conversation offers valuable perspective on what sustains authors through rejection, financial uncertainty, and creative doubt. As Maz perfectly summarizes: "The biggest success is staying in the game."

That'll Teach Her

A headmistress is dead. The circumstances are suspicious.
And as every parent knows, being on the school group chat can be murder...

As educators go, Claudia Stitchwell makes Miss Hannigan look like Miss Honey.
But when the reviled headteacher drops dead in the school hall, a group of sceptical parents suspect the nut allergy explanation doesn't add up - they believe someone wanted to teach Miss Stitchwell a lesson.

Only four people could have killed Stitchwell: Hattie, the adored school cook; Kiera, the hard-working teaching assistant; Clive, the loathed school bursar and Ben, the popular deputy head. All of them are liars... but only one is the murderer.

Piecing together evidence from the daily drama and drudgery of the parents' group chat, local press, police reports, school newsletters, and good, old-fashioned

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and AI Copyright Concerns
• 4:00 Meet Maz Evans: Children's and Adult Author
• 7:22 Second Book Syndrome and Writing Struggles
• 17:34 Handling Rejection in Publishing
• 22:31 Money and Publishing's Uncomfortable Truth
• 41:32 "Over My Dead Body" and Finding Publishers Who Believe
• 51:37 Self-Care for Writers and Setting Boundaries
• 1:06:10 "That'll Teach You" - Maz's New Book and WhatsApp Drama
• 1:14:11 Closing Thoughts and Final Questions

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

My debut children's book is called who Let the Gods Out and I wrote the second one before the first one was published, and the first one. They were all excited about it and I was really lucky. I got like Waterstones book of the month and they were all super excited like, oh, this is great, it's the first four part series. Let's have the second one. Come on, mouth, let's. And I'm like I got nothing.

Speaker 2: 0:17

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. My week has been good, it's been busy. But also, if you're an author, if you're actually not just an author, if you are a creative person, last week saw revelations about AI and meta and basically, in a nutshell, we all found out that meta had been using stolen copies of our books in order to train their AI. There's an article in the Atlantic magazine and I'm going to put the link in the show notes that you should read. And if you're an author and you haven't done this yet, there's a link to LibGen's database, and it's a database of books that have basically been stolen in order to train AI, and I wasn't thinking my books would be there, I just didn't. But I put my name in and, lo and behold, all of my books, all of my books, including foreign editions of my books, are in this database, and Meta have used these stolen books in order to train their AI. So, if you haven't already done so, this is my request to you, not only just to authors, but all creatives and everyone who just loves and enjoys the work that we produce. So get in touch with your MPs, get in touch with your unions, your writers guilds, your artist guilds. Just make your voices heard that this is not acceptable. So that is my request for everyone out there, because it really isn't acceptable if you want our work, you need to pay us for it. It's as simple as that. You don't steal it. So, yeah, that was a that was a big revelation, because I think we're aware that this stuff happens, but there's been so much noise from creatives and industries about not wanting to loosen the protection on copyright, making sure that there are clauses in our contracts to ensure that our works are not used to train AI, but this has still happened. So, yeah, it's been quite infuriating, so it was quite a week. Anyway, I'm going to get on with the show because this is such a fun episode.

Speaker 2: 2:43

I'm in conversation with best-selling author and award-selling author of children's books who Let the God Out, oh my God's. And her, I'm trying to say because we had difficulty trying to work out the best way to say adult fiction without making it sound like top shelf, but Mazze also writes books for grown-ups, I'll just put it that way over my dead body and her new novel Dattelteacher. And in today's conversation, maz Evans and I talk about how we're writers running a business, the struggles of transitioning genres and the power of saying no in publishing and usually, as these interviews are pre-recorded, if there's a disturbance because, you know, life gets in the way. So, for example, I forgot that the postman was coming to do a collection. So usually I will just edit out the interruption. But I decided to keep it in because you will hear Maz Evans being hilariously entertaining whilst I go and deal with the postman and I just thought I'm just going to leave it in because it's just fun and it just sums her up. So, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation.

Speaker 2: 4:00

Maz Evans, welcome to the conversation. Thank you so much for having me delighted to be here. Maz Evans, welcome to the Conversation. Thank you so much for having me Delighted to be here. Very welcome, you're welcome, I'm welcome, we're all welcome. I can't even talk. The reason why I can't talk is because I'm just so excited to talk to you. Right, but I'm going to start off with a really sensible, sensible question. Maz, how would you describe your career? Stupid.

Speaker 1: 4:27

Stupid, totally stupid. Your career stupid, it's totally stupid, but also like mediocre and stupid. That's the thing it's like you like to explain and I'm wildly successful. So, um, I am sort of well, I'm an author broadly, but, um, I write for children and I write for adults. So I am started as a children's author. So I have published now 15, I think, children's books. Uh, but two years ago I published my debut.

Speaker 2: 4:53

I was hesitant to say adult book because it kind of has other comments very when I was like doing my little, doing my notes and doing my research last night. Literally I've written here, switching genres, moving from middle grade to adult fiction and brackets. I've written adult. It just sounds so wrong and I've had to write publishing. But then adult publishing just sounds even what a top shelf it doesn't sound anything so when.

Speaker 1: 5:20

I say adult, I mean as distinct from my career as a children's author, as opposed to the sideline in Antarctica. That is my own world, by the way, but that's, that's for another podcast. But yes, I wrote my debut adult comedy crime novel Over my Dead Body and I've got the next one coming out at the end of February. That'll teach you Plug. So, and I am absolutely bummed. Even in the third one I'm two weeks off deadline. So it is. It is a miracle I'm wearing clothes. To be honest, the house is a disaster. There's a reason for the top knot, nadine. There's a reason, but it looks. It looks very like fashion. I mean it's just awful. I mean there's just nothing's getting done until this novel is delivered in two weeks.

Speaker 2: 6:03

I always call like that week before I need to deliver that book. I just call it the Uber Eats and Red Wine week, because that's what I just. I just survive on Uber Eats and Deliveroo. I'm not cooking anything, I don't comb my hair. It's either in a headscarf or just in a bun. It's just like. It's just.

Speaker 1: 6:26

Yeah, can I? Can I say I hold you and this podcast in such high esteem. I showered for this because I'm that worried about a stank kind of transmitting. I feel so honored and a bra like I have gone. I really one of those things have happened this week. Everything my children have eaten has come out of brown plastic. This week there's not been the oven's not been on. No, no cutlery has been used, it's just been anything I could show the microwave.

Speaker 2: 6:46

I think that's I think, I think, every, every writer has a deadline, can relate. Oh yeah, that's simply.

Speaker 1: 6:51

That's just my point, I think when it gets this point in life, I realize what I can't do. You know, I have no aspirations to be superwoman anymore. I don't try and do it all, have it all, just if I just do one thing. But frankly, I'm winning at life. So I need to deliver the book.

Speaker 2: 7:05

Then I will do other stuff like clean, cook, raise my children, speak to a friend, probably hygiene, but that's coming after March the 3rd, like nothing is happening what was it like, you know, that first moment, that break, you know, probably going back to writing your first book and your first experience of having that deadline week. What was that like for you?

Speaker 1: 7:26

because I think for me it was a bit of a shock yeah, it's like having a baby, like no one tells you and it's probably a good thing, you're just gonna find out for yourself. Um, it's well, I think the first book's a weird one, isn't it? Because you don't have a deadline in quite that way, because, yeah, as the adage goes, you've got your whole life to write your first book. Yeah, it's the second one. That's the kicker, because then you really do have a deadline. So, and I really, you know, really did second book syndrome hard. I mean the second. Everything's difficult, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 7:55

Second album, second book, second husband, um, and I struggled with all three and and my second children's book. I think my publishers were going out of their minds. So my debut children's book is called who Let the Gods Out, and I wrote the second one before the first one was published. And the first one. They were all excited about it and I was really lucky. I got like Waterstones book of the month. I'm all super excited. They're like, oh, this is great, it's the first four part series. Let's have the second one. Come on mouth, let's. I'm like I got nothing, absolutely nothing.

Speaker 1: 8:27

My second book was three complete novels before it was right. I wrote three novels and scrapped them before I got it right. But this is really. Oh yeah, yeah, it was, and they are tearing their hair out. They're going.

Speaker 1: 8:38

Who is this clown? You know, we've signed on a four book deal and she can't write books. What do we do? But I probably I always say this when I do talks because I learned more from failing at that book, I think, than I. From succeeding is a very subjective term, but succeeding at the others, because it did teach me the most important lesson I've learned as a writer, I think, which is that it does happen. You know it does happen and we don't really know how it happens. Does it? It's like it's making a diamond, it's time and pressure and somehow it happens. And that one has laid down a sort of you know, a muscle memory that goes. However badly it is going, it never, is never as bad as that book. It does happen. You've just got to turn up, glue your bum to the chair and push on through, you know, and you will get there. And that was probably the most useful lesson. As an author, I think I could have learned very early on.

Speaker 2: 9:28

I felt like that this week because, well, for the last two weeks I've been well, I've been writing, um, because I'm everyone knows like I'm a planner, so I've been doing the plans for the next two years. I love team planners, the way to go, but I've been doing the plan for the Henley books, which is fine because I know, because the world already exists. So I'm just slotting in a new investigation.

Speaker 1: 9:49

No, that's hard, that's hard, that's hard because you're trying to write the same book over and over again.

Speaker 2: 9:54

Yeah, which is that, so that pressure comes when I'm actually writing it, because I always say you know, I have an interview scene, there's always going to be an arrest, there's always going to be someone running away, we can't try and catch them. So there's all these tropes are always going to be there. But the planning is probably like a little, there's a little less pressure off it, but planning a standalone, I've started and scrapped it and started and scrapped it about four or five times until, I think, monday. I was like you know, you just need to sit there, yeah, yeah, you just need to sit there and you're writing a murder. That's what I tell myself. It's a murder mystery. Stop jazzing it up with all these different titles or subgenres. It's a murder. That's what it's about.

Speaker 1: 10:36

Just sit there and kill someone dead?

Speaker 2: 10:37

Yeah, but that's literally until, and then maybe kill another person.

Speaker 1: 10:48

I thought, oh, I had to kill a second person and I was like I've got an idea make it look like someone else did it. You could do that. Why did I give everyone else all the good ideas?

Speaker 2: 10:53

exactly, but sometimes it is about having that really strong word of yourself and then putting yourself in the chair and making it and then and then something happens. I can't even describe it because I finished it last night and I was like, oh, all that grief and hassle and stress, and there's my plan there it is and there's no.

Speaker 1: 11:12

There's just no getting around it. It's like exercise and I I think I think physical exercise is very analogous with writing, because there's just there are no shortcuts, there are no excuses, you've just got to do it like there's no, there's no way around it. And I always say, oh, I just go off on a long walk when I'm stuck. If I go for a long walk, I'm thinking about the traitors, I'm not thinking about the book. You know, have a hot bath. If I'm on a hot bath, I'm thinking about Ryan Reynolds, I'm not thinking about my book. You know, the only time I think about my book is when I'm sitting down working on the book. So stop it, evans, stop making all these excuses, these nonsense things. You can think about Ryan Reynolds later and you will, but sit down and write your book. Yeah, and that's, that's the only answer.

Speaker 1: 11:54

Is it when people say, I always sort of when you're talking to sort of aspirant authors, which I really do enjoy? I was a an academic earlier in my career as a creative writing lecturer at university and I'm really kind of I miss that. I love teaching, I love mentoring and and that side of it. So when I ask for an author's want to talk to me about it, I always say so. What should? What should you know the most important piece of advice? I always go write a book, um, because it's amazing how many people got a marketing plan. They've worked out the merchandise, they've got the film right, sorted in the book.

Speaker 2: 12:25

I had a. I also I have. I have a friend and years and years ago we were talking because I was writing, I think I'd self, I hadn't, I wasn't traditionally published, I'd self-published. I said what's like, yeah, I'm gonna ask you about that, but and I can't remember now if I was due to self-publish the book or it was at some point in the process and she said, you know, I'm writing too. I'm like cool, because we've always spoken about writing. But she and on one hand I think it's a good thing to be, it's like that whole manifesting thing but she already had the book cover, already booked the party, the launch. She, she booked the venue for the launch party.

Speaker 1: 13:05

I love this woman. She's an icon.

Speaker 2: 13:08

She's amazing. I do love her. But she's done all these things but then never wrote the book. So on one hand it's the, you know, you do it. It's like fill the dreams build it and it will come. So I don't have an issue with that, because I've done more book covers and things like that. Oh, this is what I want to do, but you still need to write it, you have to build it mixer on to do it.

Speaker 1: 13:35

I mean again, it's the physical exercise. It's like buying really nice like gym kit from sweaty betty, isn't it, and then thinking you're gonna lose seven pounds.

Speaker 2: 13:43

It's the same thing I'm always disappointed when I put on my sweaty betty stuff and I'm like it hasn't done what it says on the thing it hasn't done?

Speaker 1: 13:53

why don't I look like the girl in the picture just by wearing it? Because that's what that's the dream I was sold um, and I absolutely agree. I think the manifesting thing is really, really interesting, actually because I self-published originally. So when I first wrote the David Children's book, I wrote it basically in response to the absolute tedium of raising my children, and I love you kids. You're great, but God, you were dull when you were babies. You know this is the number one lie about motherhood.

Speaker 2: 14:21

Oh it's so fulfilling?

Speaker 1: 14:29

No, it's not. At times it's really boring like, yes, of course it's wonderful, I'd kill and die for them. But you know I'd done by this point two degrees. I'd had quite a sort of vibrant journalism career picking up Weetabix off my own. You know, left boob is not fulfilling for me, not the way to go, not the way to go.

Speaker 1: 14:39

So, and I had three kids under four at one point, but I oh, wow, yeah, no, I figured out what was causing it and we stopped that, so that was fine. I was so, so, so, so bored that I wrote this book, and I think it's probably everyone does. I wrote my first book and I went oh well, that's brilliant. Wow, this is the book. Publishing didn't know it needed. Publishing didn't agree.

Speaker 1: 15:02

Nadine did you send it out straight away oh yeah, um no, I couldn't get arrested with this book. I mean, nobody wanted to know, absolutely no one wanted to know. So I it's a tedious, long story but I basically went into a massive hissy fit for about five years and didn't write and just went into a fish's peak and kind of, you know, retired to take the vapors in a sort of Greta Garbo-esque way. Um, and then, five years later, I was, I was. So I was a university lecturer.

Speaker 1: 15:28

By this point, I was working with all these brilliant young people in their creativity and I thought, oh, come on, maz, like have a bash. And I'm a big advocate for creative entrepreneurialism because I think it's really empowering and I think it's really, um, exciting. And there are more and more opportunities for us to, you know, and we should always make a business of our writing. We are not writers, we're not floating around in scarves. This is our business. We are business, people running a business, and I think doing it yourself is really empowering.

Speaker 1: 15:58

So I self-published who Let the Gods Out? Because I was going around schools doing creative writing workshops at a captive market. But I had this vision and this is going to sound so woo woo and I'm not a very woo woo person, but I had this absolute belief I was going to be on the stage at the Hay Festival. So not like you know, you know Daventry, you know book group. No, maz, let's think, let's. Let's go to the top. Let's go to the Hay Festival, let's go to Glastonbury of our world. Let's not keep it realistic in any way, shape or form. Yeah, go big or go home, home, so. But I had this absolute belief that I was gonna, um, I was gonna do it. Do you know where I launched that book?

Speaker 1: 16:28

on stage at the Hay Festival and I really how did that happen? Um, because I'm really irritatingly persistent, I think is was was the main thing I'd love to say. It was talent and no, I just I wore them down, wore them down, it was. It was basically for god's sake, give her a slot or we take out a restraining order, which is.

Speaker 2: 16:48

I think that I think that's amazing because I this is just my from my own experience from oh, let me open the door very, very quickly so I'll entertain everybody.

Speaker 1: 17:04

in the meantime, let's have a little bit of Greensleeves holding music. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

Speaker 2: 17:16

You are number three in the queue. Do, do, do, do do do, do, do.

Speaker 1: 17:20

You are number five in the queue. How did that happen? I was number three just a minute ago. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do do. You are number five in the game. How did that happen? I was number three just a minute ago. It's all right, nadine, I've got this covered, we've got.

Speaker 2: 17:31

You are number two in the queue I forgot I had one of these post office collections oh, you don't miss that, those are like what was I saying?

Speaker 2: 17:42

I was saying um, hey, and manifesting, and you were saying yeah, oh yeah that's it, because I think you know I say from experience of, you know, being a student on creative writing courses and going along to how many festivals and events, oh, you can always spot the person who's whether it's a student or the someone you know just an audience member that they're looking for the magic bullet in order to write a book. And I'm always sitting there thinking I do not have the answer. But I can tell you my experience, I can tell you what I feel like you should do, but there's no magic bullet that's going to get you from sitting at your desk writing a book and then appearing at the Hayes A hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 18:25

There just isn't, there isn't and there isn't. And the thing is that you know of all the mythologies about art industry and there are many you know it's not just talent and hard work, sadly. There are many talented, hardworking writers who don't get a break for whatever reason Some just timing, some systemic, some luck, some, you you know, just wrong place, wrong time. You know there's all of that. It's not meritocratic, um, it's not fair, it's. You know that there are, and you know I love publishing, we're proud to be part of it. But this kind of idea, like you say, that there is some magic formula well, if there was, we'd all be doing it, wouldn't?

Speaker 1: 18:59

we I mean, we'd all be doing it and it is a combination of all those things of luck and timing and talent and hard work and your book landing on the right, so over my dead body, for instance, you know, my first adult book. So that was originally. I was a screenwriter back along and it was originally a screenplay and I and it did quite well. For me it's opened a few doors and I always thought make a good novel. And it wasn't. I think there's a lot of writers until the pandemic came along that I had time to do it. So translated into a novel which, I have to say, I loved. I was really pleased with it and I'm very hard on my work. I don't, I don't toot my own horn. You know, I always think everything I write is pretty rubbish and there are plenty of people who agree with me oh, I do plenty of people.

Speaker 2: 19:38

I always think everything's rubbish. And my agent, even the last thing I sent him, he was like it's good, and I think the look on my face he's like why are you surprised? I said I just yeah, literally I'm just like really, because I'm reading it and I can't, and I can't see what you see my editors when I send that.

Speaker 1: 19:53

You know, when you send the first draft email, don't you go. I know it's rubbish, like I know it's rubbish, but I will fix it. I promise I will fix it. It's like a whole league disclaimer. I've got a pro league disclaimer. I've got a proforma. Now that I just stick on a first draft, email it goes, I'll make it I promise I'll fix it.

Speaker 1: 20:09

I promise I'll fix it. But so we wrote Over my Dead Body anyway, back and Forth of the Mage and what have you. And we went out on submission and I was quite hopeful for that book which, again, cynical genius, 10 years in the industry, I tend not to be terribly optimistic these days. I was quite hopeful for that one crickets, nadine, absolute cricket, and you know well I hope you don't know the pain of being on submission for weeks and just rejection after rejection, after rejection.

Speaker 1: 20:37

And I was kind of and this sounds arrogant, I don't mean it arrogantly, but I, like, I thought this I know this book is good, like I know this book is quite good and I know there's an audience for it. More to the point, but again, right. So it landed on the desk of Toby Jones, who is my editor at Headline, and I will actually refrain from saying all the rude things I normally say, but I won't refrain for long. But he absolutely loved it and so one person who loved it acquired it, has published it with so much passion and enthusiasm, and you know I get nominated for the gold dagger by the book. That nobody wanted, you know, and it's kind of I mean awards are a nonsense, they're just.

Speaker 1: 21:12

I'm sure they pick names out of a hat, frankly, but it's you know. It went from a book that literally publishing you know wanted to to burn, to getting you know to get nominated for one of the biggest awards.

Speaker 1: 21:23

Go figure and I'm not saying that's because I'm great, I'm saying that's the complete nonsense of our industry. It makes no sense. And but when you find that person who loves what you do and really gets you, that is worth so much to me because publishing with passion is is everything when you've got publishers who are really behind you do you know I'm thinking about?

Speaker 2: 21:44

you know, you say publishing makes no sense and there are a lot of things you look at and you're like it just makes no sense whatsoever. I don't understand it. So what I've decided I'm allowing myself to do when I have those moments, because I usually just try and follow Mel Robbins and just just let them. I just like, just let them.

Speaker 1: 21:59

I just let them this week. That's so weird, weird, let them, just let them. It's so normal, isn't it? Let them.

Speaker 2: 22:05

It is. But what I've decided yesterday was I'm going to allow myself one moment of pettiness a week. I feel like you should be allowed one moment of pettiness. Well, I did it twice this week. It's supposed to be once, but I did it this morning. It was literally before we started recording. I saw something on Instagram and I was like, oh for yeah. I was like really, really, and I was like, no, let them. But I said you're allowed your, you're allowed your moment of petting this. I think it's good, I think it's nice to have to embrace it and let it go to have that vent. It is just well meaning.

Speaker 1: 22:40

Sometimes it's not always well meaning, but it's how it can get the right things. So very wrong sometimes. And I think the biggest part of publishing that drives me mad is the absolute disingenuousness around money. And there was a thing that did the rounds on the socials a few weeks ago. I've seen it as a quote.

Speaker 1: 22:58

That's along the lines of I'm paraphrasing, but it's like it's one thing to become an author, it's another thing to remain an author and and the fact is, money is at the heart of that and we know that anything that involves money is going to disproportionately um, disadvantage already marginalized people.

Speaker 1: 23:14

So we know that. We know that when money is on the table, it's going to disproportionately affect the people who should be having the seat at the table already. So the fact that nobody will talk about it and talk about you know sustainable, you know careers nobody will talk about the fact that you cannot, you cannot, you know work for 500 pounds, advance for a year and be expected to give up your job and and write a book and tour it's impossible and that's crazy so many people from entering or remaining so you can have all the schemes in the world that you want, with all the well-meaning rhetoric around them, but unless you're going to goddamn pony up and give people money to support them through the early part of their career, we won't get those voices that we need from and the thing is you as an author.

Speaker 2: 24:00

You're always battling with perception, because the perception is that you know someone. It could be a member of your family, could be a friend, someone you went to school with donkey years ago. They'll walk into the supermarket any supermarket. They'll see your book on the shelves and the assumption is because you'll see yours, but they won't see mine, but they'll'll see yours.

Speaker 1: 24:19

I take the point.

Speaker 2: 24:20

They'll see your book anyone's book, but they'll see that. And then the natural leap is because I'm sure I've done it in the past your natural leap is oh wow, I'm seeing your book while I'm out buying my peas. So you must be doing really, really well financially. When reality is, it's like criminal barristers and criminal solicitors. The assumption is you're a fat cat lawyer, when you're not, because for a lot of them I can't remember what the, what, the recent number is, but they could be earning like less most writers, earning less than 10 grand. Oh yeah, you can't survive. You can't. Yeah, seven, it's seven grand.

Speaker 1: 24:53

You can't survive on seven thousand pounds per year that average includes the osmonds and the Rowlings and the Lee Charles of this world. So that average has been pulled up by the people who are earning millions. So the real figure, I suspect, is a lot less than that.

Speaker 2: 25:07

I think it's a lot less.

Speaker 1: 25:09

Yeah, you can't live off that you can't live off it.

Speaker 2: 25:12

You can't, and that's why when you see these articles, I always talk about the law. But you see these articles saying you know you'd earn more, literally, being a barista in Starbucks than you would be in a trainee, solicitor or pupil or be an author. People like, no, that can't be true. It is 100 percent true.

Speaker 1: 25:40

It is 100 percent true, and therefore all the inclusion and diversity which is so overdue and so necessary and such a moral imperative in this industry that every voice should be reflected and amplified. None of that is going to happen effectively until we pay people properly. The reason that publishing has been the preserve of the white middle class is high card carrying member of both um is because they're the only people who can afford to do it you know, it's, as there are other, obviously other systemic issues at play and it'd be naive to suggest that publishing is immune from those.

Speaker 1: 26:00

But unless people are being paid they can't do it. And seven grand is that average and that average, and it's something running like 400 quid or 25 quid. From doing this and you know and I know, writing these books is hard, man, it is demands everything of your time, brain, life.

Speaker 2: 26:21

I always equate it, you know. Talk about going back to that final week before your deadline. It demands everything of your time, brain, life. I always equate it, you know, talking about going back to that final week before your deadline. I always equate it to doing a trial and that feeling. It could be a trial that's been two, three days, or a trial that's been three months, but when you get to the end you are so exhausted. But it's not a physical, it's a mental exhaustion and the same feeling I have when I's a mental exhaustion and the same feeling I have when I've completed a trial. It's the same feeling I have when I've completed a book, because it's you're just fully engaged, but it's just a constant. You don't, there's no respite from it. So you go, you go to sleep, you're still thinking about it in your bed. You wake up you're thinking about it and it's just continuous. So when you do start, it's normally when you get sick because your body always deadline flu is real, it is.

Speaker 1: 27:06

It's so all-conceiving and it sounds sort of as my mom's very mamby pamby sounds mamby pamby, but it's kind of. It is exhausting because you're thinking about, at some level, a program is running the whole time, like, say, when you're awake, when you're asleep, and because you're doing it under time pressure. So you are having to come up with ideas and the idea that a book is one idea is just laughable. A book is 50 000 different ideas. Everyone's got to be earning their, their, their place on the page. Every word has got to earn its place on the page and there's 100 000 of those for starters. So you, you know that's no mean feat and it is absolutely exhausting.

Speaker 1: 27:42

And the thing I find quite difficult is because I'm sort of doing the two I mean I say the two sides of the same career. Really, my career as a children's author is almost completely distinct from my career as an adult author. So I've got to deliver this book two weeks on Monday not even two weeks two weeks on Monday and then I'm back into deadline for my next middle grade in May. And then I've got another project due in July, I've got another project due in October and I just delivered a book in January. I just this is the longest sentence I've spoken frankly nothing, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 28:15

I mean, I was gonna ask you, maz, how you keep going, but I wanted to ask you what you know. When you're doing all these talks and you're talking to writers, aspiring writers, what do you say to them to keep them going through that rejection, because nothing can really prepare you for it? I said back in the day, you know the rejection was your literal manuscript landing back on your doorstep. I don't know what's worse actually. No, I think that was worse. I think that's worse than the emails, because when it comes back and it's got your own handwriting on the envelope and you're like you don't even need to open it to know what's happened, that's so true. I think the envelope was worse.

Speaker 1: 28:55

I think it probably was, because you, just like you say, you just look at that thing on your doormat and you step straight over it, don't you.

Speaker 2: 29:02

You're like, I don't need to disappoint myself just yet I remember picking it up and just throwing it back on the bottom step.

Speaker 1: 29:09

And that could be a tenner down front to print as well.

Speaker 2: 29:14

No, but then I did used to think, well, I can, as long as I haven't marked it up.

Speaker 1: 29:25

I'll just take it out and put it in another envelope and send it to you. That was the only thing. Rejections are a weird thing and feedback is. I think, how you take feedback is one of the most important things about being a writer and I found this when I was mentoring, so when I was on the other side of it, it was really interesting to see how people took feedback or didn't, and obviously it's all subjective, you know. I just said you know, of the 12 people we sent over my dead body out to, 11 didn't like it and one did.

Speaker 2: 29:45

So you know it's.

Speaker 1: 29:46

It's entirely subjective, but the skill is to take what's useful out of it. So if you had 10 rejections and they're all saying a similar thing like the characters aren't coming to life or the dialogue doesn't come off the page or the plot isn't believable listen to that, because that is a really useful note. You know, if one person just says something random like you know I don't really like books about, you know penguins then that's not necessarily helpful because you'll find your penguin people. But when you've got a lot of people saying the same thing, that's note. When you've got one random person you know, like on amazon, saying, well, the packaging was broken, you don't have to pay too much attention to that. Let that into your, into your self-worth.

Speaker 1: 30:27

So I think it's take what is useful out of the rejections because you know, I know that agents and editors really are the nice ones that I've worked with. They really agonize over this stuff and they really do try to give useful feedback. You know where they think it is. So listen to that. You don't have to absorb it all if you wildly disagree with it. But you know, no one's saying it to do you down or have a go at you. So take what's useful out of it, because maybe that is what's stopping you from getting away. So yeah, try and filter what is useful in the rejections and apply it back to your work.

Speaker 2: 30:58

Yeah, when I was mentoring and I had one writer and we were working on the working on the manuscript and she sent it out to age, I told her not to. She sent it out to agents, but I can't remember how many sent it out to. I was like, well, I said no, I said it wasn't ready. It wasn't ready yet. But it's that thing which I understand. Like you in in your head, you finished it and because you finished it, you have a book and you tell yourself it's the best you know we've all done.

Speaker 1: 31:25

It's the best book ever, absolutely but the greatest life we tell ourselves aren't they, it's the best life, it's a warm life.

Speaker 2: 31:32

It's not even a lie, it's the truth, you know it. But she sent it out. Let's say, sitting out to five agents, four of of them thanks, but no thanks. One of them came back and it was a no, but they gave her feedback. But so she sent me, you know, sent me the email, and in my head I'm thinking you've got feedback. You know how valuable it is to get feedback from an agent. They told you no, but she was so wedded to one, her manuscript and how good she believes it is, but also the fact that then, wedded to the rejection, the overall rejection, she couldn't see. I call, like the beauty in the feedback. Yeah, sit there and say to her do you know how rare it is for an agent to sit there, one who's told you no, to give you feedback? I said listen to the feedback, think about it, incorporate it and take it from there. And eventually she did.

Speaker 1: 32:24

And then she got an agent, the same one who rejected her, then said she said, I said, send it back to them, send it back to them and she did say that because my agent, the divine Veronique Baxter, who I adore um, I would have been with Veronique, uh, for 10 years next month and when I first sent her who Let the Gods Out? She rejected it back in what would have been 2009. She rejected it and I was crushed because I was already represented by David Hyams as script writer. So, honestly and very arrogantly, I thought it was a shoo-in. You know, I just thought it was some rubber, you were doing it.

Speaker 2: 32:55

The same agency is like why wouldn't your mate next door say yes?

Speaker 1: 32:58

exactly because obviously you know you're just gonna, you're just gonna look at the first page and go, oh, this girl, oh she's got she knows what she's doing strange, it turns out publishing was a bit more intricate than that.

Speaker 1: 33:10

Who knew? But in my stupid youthful arrogance I uh, I assumed it was a bit of a dumb deal, so very neat, rejected it. And that was the most crushing rejection I got. Because, because of, because I thought, wow, you must have really hated it, like not to take me on with the agency. And I remembered this email as, like this Veronique would never be unkind. But this visceral takedown of the book saying how awful it was. And I mean that's why I went into a huff for five years and didn't write, because I was like, well, I'm just rubbish, aren't I? Because, look, do you know what, nadine, I read that email back a few weeks ago because I said it wasn't that bad, it was lovely, it was really encouraging. You are a great writer, you've got a great voice. The plot is not as she said. I'm so close to this, but it's just not quite there yet. You're not quite ready, but keep going because you're great that's a great email, it was a great, not in 2009.

Speaker 1: 34:06

It wasn't Nadine, it was you can be so readied.

Speaker 2: 34:09

All you're seeing is the big R. You're just seeing R and rejection and failure, and you're not seeing what's actually being said, lovely yeah, and encouraging and helpful feedback that I got.

Speaker 1: 34:20

So so it is that I think it is definitely taking what's used and you do have to. You have to try and step away from when I was mentoring um and I'm going to say I'm sorry, lads, but there was definitely a gender split between women taking feedback largely and men taking feedback, and there were some men who took feedback brilliantly. There was only ever one woman who did not take the feedback. Well, but I did run into not problems because it's freely given and take my advice or leave it but one um man had written a middle grade children's book that was 150 000 words long. Right, so, middle grade, 150 000 words long.

Speaker 2: 34:58

So I mean that's punching up for us on the practical side, like what is the ideal length for middle grade?

Speaker 1: 35:05

well, these days, they want about 40 000, but so once you go over 50 000 and there are exceptions, of course, but really 50 000 is very top end who let the guys like 60 000, which is very, very top end, um, but somewhere sort of 40, 40 to 50, probably I'll be able to push up over 50 if it's the higher end of the age bracket. So this book is three times longer than the now this book came to me. I've got to be honest, he was brilliant. I mean, he was a sensational writer. The story was beautiful, the world was beautiful, and he sent it to me.

Speaker 1: 35:34

I said I'm gonna be honest, let's call him ted um, ted. Uh, you are a fantastic writer, I really. I I haven't got much to give you. I mean, you're brilliant. Just one thing, and this is an easy fix your book's too long. But hey, great news, you've got three books here. Just divide it up into three. You've got series to pitch. You haven't got a bit of a middle grade loves a series. So I said, just, you know, put buttons on on each act, basically fire it off, you're away. No, he said. I said okay. He said no. So I'm not, I'm not going to do that. I said I'm, I'm going to ask you why. And he said no. He said I would rather this book never be published than ever break it up into three parts and ever change a word of what I've written. This guy's paid for this opportunity. Especially, he's paying for me to tell him he's great um and he was great and I did tell him he's great.

Speaker 1: 36:28

He got his money's worth but I'm just like, as an industry thing, you're not going to get 150 000 more, but there is no way. So of course then you get the classic well, jk rowling did it. It's like different, different different. It's a little bit different literally, that's its own industry, if you compare the philosophy uh, the philosopher's stone, to the, the deathly hallows that, yeah, very different.

Speaker 1: 36:51

And you know, say what you will, but she's on her publishing chops. By that point she could have published a shopping list. At that point, couldn't she? Basically, um, but um, he just wouldn't do it and he went no, and you know what the dean, to this day, strangely still not published. It's still not published.

Speaker 2: 37:07

I don't want to go into a gender thing, but I gave feedback because I was asked to and it's like you know, I'm entering a competition. Do you mind reading my piece? Give me feedback on piece, and it's the line. I really value your opinion and I'm busy, I'm busy, I have like I'm not gonna sit here and lie and say I'm not busy, I'm busy, I have things to do. But I said, yes, I'll give you feedback because I think it's important to you. Know, pay it back. And I read it. I'm like, okay, I can see the story there. It's a good story, but there are things that are wrong. Debate, they're just wrong. There's things that are wrong and after a lot, if you do x, y and z, perfect, send it off. I can't remember if I got a thank you, but what I did see, what I did see, was a message on social, a post on social media. Yeah, well, I got the feedback and I wasn't that impressed of it and I'm gonna send it off anyway.

Speaker 1: 37:56

I was like you can be petty about that as long as I was, so I was just like really, I thought, okay, this is my petty, my petty South London side.

Speaker 2: 38:07

I was like, okay, this is when you're gonna find out. Now I'm like you're gonna find out.

Speaker 1: 38:12

Karl was on the express train.

Speaker 2: 38:13

Yeah, he didn't, he didn't win the competition, he didn't win.

Speaker 1: 38:18

It's really odd. I mean, I'm kind of like it's the sort of does my bum look big in this principle like if I don't want the answer, I don't ask the question. I don't have a bank account, I don't get the scales like if there is information I don't want to have, I don't ask it. But if I'm asking, if I'm seeking from their opinion, then take it. You know, take it because there's no point and a lot of these things can be sort of looking for validation and I find that very interesting.

Speaker 2: 38:45

I understand they're looking for validation because you know, when you send, like when I send my book out to my editor or my agent, the all I need to know is that they think it's good that they like it, because then it means to me that, yeah, I am. It's validation for me. I'm a good writer and I can tell a story. I don't give a monkey. Yeah, it'll pay for the uber. It will justify me living in my headscarf for a week and just paying uber eats and delivery, delivery, all my money, like it, will justify all that.

Speaker 2: 39:15

So you need that validation. So when I see the, I always say I'll get the email from my editor and as long as I and she said the last one, she goes oh, I love it. I don't care what's in the editing notes. After that I'm like I don't care if you tell me I've got to rewrite the whole half, second half of the book, but you told me that you love it and that's all I need to know. And then I'm, then I'm yeah and I'm good to. So needy, I'm so needy.

Speaker 1: 39:42

I'm good to run with the edits after that tell me you love me.

Speaker 1: 39:46

Tell me you love me. Give me a sticker and tell me you like it, please, please. I've been in the bush 10 years and still now, when I get an email from my agents, I've pitched us some ideas for some new things. This week and I got an email back saying I am so excited about these ideas. One of the things I love about Verily she gives it to me straight. I need you, but I do need someone who'll give it to me straight, because if I send her something she doesn't like, she'll go no, no, maz, what you're? No, you know, we've been. We're having too many hot bars, thinking about too much red wine, not enough to live a room. As good, go back and think about it again. So when she says she really likes it, I'm literally like like a, like a meerkat. She likes me, she likes my ideas. At this point in my life, how, how fragile my kind of self-worth is.

Speaker 2: 40:43

I always I mean, I've said it loads of times on this interest. I do continuously find it interesting how, if you've done other things before being a writer, so have you been, you know, teacher, lawyer, anything, anything you can be so confident in yourself in that career, but we then move into this and we turn into, I don't know, like a 14 year old school girl waiting to find out with Michael in the fifth year.

Speaker 2: 41:08

Fancies us you just you just don't you just get so like weak and prophetic about and you're like I'm a grown woman, I don't stand it. I'm an old woman, you know I can see my job standing on my head.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Yeah, I will literally check my Wi-Fi connection, like in that kind of are you sure this phone's working when you're waiting for Michael to phone the landline? You know, is my Wi-Fi working? There's something wrong with my email. I seem to only be getting the Viagra emails, but I think part of that is is you know? So you obviously have an extra I. I will say this and I kind of I would much rather interview you. I've got far. You have far more interesting things to say than I do, but I don't know how you do like the most high-powered job and you do this like I just do.

Speaker 2: 41:52

Well luckily I don't have to do it anymore. I just teach.

Speaker 1: 41:57

I just teach them now, but it's still a lot yeah, I don't know how to do it, I don't know how you do it. It is, yeah and it is. But the thing is in that career so I came from journalism and then academia and you come from law. In that, in those jobs, I think it's fair to say if you do a good job and you're good at what you do, you will progress through that career. If you are good at it, there will be there's an obvious structure, there's, there's reward, there's promotion.

Speaker 1: 42:22

The problem with this career is you can do all that, do it really well and have a great book, and it all goes well, and then your next one tanks and you're out and it's, and that's, I think, why we're so mad is because that the precariousness of this profession is awful. You can sell hundreds of thousands of books, you can um, win all the awards you could do, but you have a bad run and you'll get kicked out, and that's what's so terrifying is we're all scared of that, aren't we? That we're only as good as our last book, and it's a terrifying way to be listeners.

Speaker 2: 42:51

It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. You know, in one of my whatsapp group I'm in a whatsapp group, a bunch of writers, it's a safe place and I posted in there like a mock job description of a writer and I'm gonna read it out to you and I said no one would apply. I said no one would apply for the job of a writer. We are looking for a writer. No minimum salary, no fixed hours. Flexibility of remote work. You can choose your own projects. No guarantee of promotion. No guarantee of payment once project concluded. No guarantee of career progression. Your work may be used to train ai, like if you saw. If you saw that advertised, you would not apply for the job.

Speaker 1: 43:51

I honestly, on the similar thing, I was like dragon's den. You know dragon's den, but they have to go pitch a thing and the dragons invest. You think about it with, like your publishing pitch. So so I've made this thing. Uh, I've spent several years on it, I've got proven sales record and I really want you to invest in my thing. And they go yeah, we're going to give you six percent. That's a terrible deal. You're keeping 94 of the thing that I made, like you never take it. You'd be like I'm gonna go to the back. No, sorry dragons, I'm out, it's a terrible, you would walk away.

Speaker 2: 44:24

You'll take your dignity with you. You'd walk away you really would.

Speaker 1: 44:30

No, deborah meaden, no, no, no. Joe wicks, he's on it now, don't know why, uh, no, that's no good. I'm not giving you 94% of my business for the work that it takes. But there's this, and I rant about this a lot, but there's the um, this toxic gratitude curve in publishing that drives me mad. So the notion that is always dangled around is that, well, if you don't want to do it, like there's a queue out the door of people that will.

Speaker 1: 44:58

No, can I just stop this now, nadine? No, no, no, no. There is not a queue of people out the door who can do what you and I and every published author can do. There just isn't pure people who want to do it, a lot of people who want to do it, but lot of people who want to do it, but people who can actually write and deliver consistently quality stuff on horrible deadlines with everything else that is going on in life and keep coming up this. No, there aren't many of us who can do that, thank god, because we're all slightly unhinged and deranged, but there aren't that many people who. So stop it publishing. Stop with this nonsense that if you don't want to do it, we can just replace you because you can't love, you just can't. So there's always that fear that we're going to.

Speaker 1: 45:41

You know, if we don't do it, somebody else, will and I don't simply don't think that is right or or correct and the fact that you know there's a sort of sense I don't know quite if it's the same in the, in the adult, in the children's world the sort of publisher loyalty that you will stay with the publisher who will absolutely flick you off. You know, if you don't do the numbers you'll go, and yet you're supposed to stay with them, no matter what toxic gratitude if it was a relationship you'd be calling a helpline.

Speaker 2: 46:07

You know it's very, very very well, if it's a relationship, it will be controlling and coercive behavior exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 46:14

It's kind of this is you know, you will do this, you will do this, you'll do it on on these terms and don't get around I love.

Speaker 1: 46:19

I work with very brilliant publishers and I'm surrounded by a really good team of people. But I see it with other people and there's kind of just keeping people afraid and it's like you say, if it were a relationship, it would be coercive, controlling behavior and it's and we're not going to do the things we need to do as an industry to make sure everyone is here and everyone is represented, if we have this toxic gratitude thing it's crazy, yeah, it's.

Speaker 2: 46:46

It's crazy. Listening like listening to you or anyone listening to us right now be like, well, let me just, let me just shut down my word document, let me go and do something else, because, like, why would I put myself for it? So I need to ask you why do we exactly? Yeah, so why do you? Why do you? What keeps you going?

Speaker 1: 47:08

I love it. I love it. Um, I've got Stockholm syndrome with my career, but there are, you know, in amongst all that and I think possibly I've focused a little too much on the negative side of it, but so publishers are still available for work. I love it. I love the act of creation. I love the fact that there are people who I have and will never meet, to whom my words have elicited some sort of response. You know that they have laughed, or it has made them think, or they thought it's the worst book in creation. You know, whatever it is, something I have written has touched somebody else, another human on this planet. Um, obviously, when you get the lovely feedback, it's amazing. So, and and I've better be careful I think I've upset publishers. Uh, I've been rude about being a mentor letored, let's have a go at reviewers now, shall we?

Speaker 1: 47:55

Let's see if we're going to bury our career.

Speaker 2: 47:58

You might as well tick all the boxes, Maz.

Speaker 1: 48:01

I don't do things by halves. I do. Reviews are lovely, but it is ultimately the opinion of one person, and you know, and we know that those things are highly subjective. So for me, so, democratic reviews like Amazon. You know and we know that those things are highly subjective. So for me, so democratic reviews like Amazon. You know, seeing what the weight of people think, that does mean a little bit more to me, to be honest, because it's like the TripAdvisor thing, isn't it? If one person says that you know the mashed potatoes are lumpy, then perhaps they're being fussy.

Speaker 1: 48:30

If everybody says it, then there's obviously a problem with the mashed potatoes. It's kind of it's the same thing with reviews. If kind of you know broadly everyone's going I really enjoyed this and that's great and a few people go. No, I'd rather poke my eyes out with spoons than ever read another word. This is what. Right then you kind of go all right, love. All right, ted.

Speaker 2: 48:44

I appreciate we've got your fictional person is called Ted, mine is Barbara. It was Maureen for a while. Now it's Barbara this week. Barbara at number 72.

Speaker 1: 48:57

I know exactly what Barbara's like as well. I can already see Barbara. In fact, you know what, on given days in the deep I probably am Barbara. I can, I can be peak Barbara, um, but it's, you know it, when people, when readers, get in touch, so over my dead body is about a dead woman who solves her has to solve her own murder and and I have this sort of ridiculous view of the afterlife that it's basically like fleet service station which talk about manifesting. Weirdly is where I was when I got the phone call saying I got the book deal I was having a wee you know, you said you're not really.

Speaker 1: 49:30

I think you are completely and the woman in the cubicle next to me must have wondered what the heck was going on in there, because I went, yes.

Speaker 2: 49:40

I think that's a question I need to ask people now where were you when you got the call? Because I got the call. I was in an uber going to my friend's house for dinner and it was a Friday night and I just was not expect. I just was not expecting the call, because the book only went out on submission, like on the tuesday and the friday, yeah, the friday. So I'm in the uber going to my friend's house and then ollie, my agent, calls me. Did he call me, a, text me? And I think he called me. And, yeah, he called me because he was on the train and he's like we got, we got an offer and I went okay and I'm expect. And I was like okay, and he told me the train and he's like we got, we got an offer and I went okay and I'm expecting. I was like okay, and he told me the offer.

Speaker 2: 50:16

And I don't know my face must have just completely changed because the cab driver starts looking at me in the way of it and I'm just like okay, okay, like very just, flat, okay, all right, all right, okay, speak to you later, end the call, and then I go into like a panic, like I'm trying to call people like I need to. I need to like I need to call my friend. I need to tell someone yeah, she's not picking up. Call my brother, he's not picking up. I nearly called the one in Japan, but the time difference there's no point I'll be waking him up, so I don't call him.

Speaker 2: 50:47

I get to the point where I'm thinking I might have to call an ex because I just need to talk to somebody. I'm going to call somebody, and then I need to call somebody. And then I'm like I'm not going to call my friend because I'm going to see her. And then we stop in the traffic lights and the cab driver's like is everything all right? Because he must have just thought I just found out someone died or something. Yeah, because that was like the expression on my face. He's like are you okay? And I'm like yeah, it's fine.

Speaker 1: 51:15

I was not fine. What's the first person that learned about your book?

Speaker 2: 51:20

deal your uber driver because that would just, yeah, it was my uber driver, because he was just looking at me like I just had the worst news ever. Because, because I'm quite, I'm chatty, so I would. Sometimes I'm very chatty to them and other times I'm just like I don't want to talk to nobody, but that I must have been in a. It's Friday night, I'm going to my friend's house, we're going to drink and chat and eat food, so I must have been chatting away to him and then I've just acted like you know.

Speaker 1: 51:44

I've lost my house, I've lost the family well, having I can't having a wee at fleet services was definitely, definitely that was the best thing I ever had. Um, but it's, you know, and it's those moments is, I mean, we're all dopamine addicts and those highs, yeah, absolutely offset the lows, don't they? When you get the wins and and I think you know again, I'm long enough in the tooth, both in terms of how you know my age and my time in the business that you do start to treat those two imposters the same success and failure. You know, you know it's a circle, you know it goes round, and round like I said about the book not going well.

Speaker 1: 52:23

You know, I know there comes a time I get there and I just visualize that time when this thing falls into place and you know it's the same when you come, when you're in a low patch and we all have them. You know the wheel will turn around. But I think the key thing is and this is something I'm really kind of holding on to at the moment is the biggest success is staying in the game. You know you can't. You don't know which book will take off or if they will, or what will get a film deal or what won't, or what might suddenly become an overnight splash, or just the sheer weight of your output will suddenly give you a comfortable living because you've got so many books out there. You don't perhaps need one earning you a fortune, you need a load earning you something. But none of that can happen if you don't stay in the game, and I think it sounds like a rather mediocre ambition. But I realise now that that is so much of the battle won because I have watched, particularly in children's, where I have far more experience I think about.

Speaker 1: 53:15

So who Let the Gods Out was published in 2017. I can only name three other debut authors that year who are still publishing. Really, I've watched so many people get the big book deal and all the hype and all the fuss and of course it doesn't sell and they're black balls, that's it, they're out. I've watched people get commissioned for series the the first one doesn't do well, so they don't want the other two. I've seen people come into this industry with so many dreams that it kind of not happen. That I just think still being here, and I think we forget that because we are all jealous. We're all jealous.

Speaker 2: 53:46

Well, you are and you always think I think thing with publishing. I'm sure it's not even just publishing any industry, I'm sure it's not even just publishing any industry. They'll always hold the shiny new thing in front of you, not even just hold it, put a great big, massive spotlight in your face and then amplify it on a giant stadium screen.

Speaker 2: 54:07

So you can't I'm very dramatic today, but you can't miss it and then simply tie it to the door in case you didn't get it. In case you didn't get it, in case you didn't get it successful than you.

Speaker 2: 54:19

It is. But it doesn't matter how confident you may feel when you look at your backlist. You're like happy with your backlist, but then you'll see that big shiny thing. You just thought, oh my god, oh my god, like is there any point? But then it goes two ways all the time. Yeah, it goes two ways either they, they continue to fly or there are some and I think probably things similar to you probably came out the same year as me and I don't know where they've gone exactly, and I think it's so easy.

Speaker 1: 54:46

And, at the end of the day, whether they fly, whether they end up buying, you know, a beverly hills mansion, or whether they they are not buying the uber eats, you know, at the end of the day, in the, in the nicest way, it doesn't affect you, you know it doesn't affect us, it's not relevant to what we're doing. And I think one of the things I have learned is in the good way to stay in my lane because, at the end of the day, it's so easy to look up. And what's brilliant is when you meet, like the big name authors uh, and I won't name her, but I was told, a really big name children's author, I like who's massive, like massive, massive queen of children's literature. And we were talking about this and I said, oh, you know, I'm sort of struggling a bit the green light monster.

Speaker 1: 55:28

Oh, me too, I can't believe that it's doing so well, whoever you are, there is always going to be somebody who is either doing better than you are and it's, you know, comparison is the thief of joy, isn't it? And when I stop doing that and sometimes I have to curate that quite carefully sometimes when you know, you know my mental or cerebral health is not great, which, when we're exhausted, when we're on deadline like this, it isn't always. I have to curate that quite carefully and not look at the socials. You know be aware that I am not in the best frame of mind to be ingesting other people's success, so I do quite consciously shut off sometimes and go this.

Speaker 2: 56:09

I'm not in a place of grace right now, so I need to just step away from it and just concentrate on what I'm doing this is why I think it is important you should, you should allow yourself to have that little, that one moment, one, 10 minutes of pettiness, just like to indulge in it. You know, so you know, acknowledge how you feel, be petty and then then, and yeah, sit with it and then let it go and move on totally and it is, and I think you know.

Speaker 1: 56:35

Another big thing about this industry is how you look after your mental health. And I don't even mean you know mental health with capital m, capital h, but generally just in the way that physical exercise is really important for me because I spend a lot of time with my bum on this chair and I have a back and I, when I don't work out, it physically hurts me because it's no good for anyone being this static and there's no way around it, is it? If you're writing a book, you are static for hours on end, whether you sit, stand, whatever you do, you can't move and write a book. So I really prioritize. You know I'm a big runner and I like the gym. I just did a Joe Wicks this morning, so everything from my name is on fire there's a reason.

Speaker 2: 57:12

My walk, that's all I managed.

Speaker 1: 57:14

I got up, I was out you gotta do, and it is good for the head. I do find it very good for the head. But also something I've become more mindful of in recent years as well is taking the same care with my brain, because that if the brain isn't working, the rest of it can't happen. What we do is so cerebrally demanding. They have to look after that headspace and you know, I don't know how you are, but it's very difficult. I'm having a bit of a week this week.

Speaker 1: 57:37

It's really difficult to shut all of that stuff out. You know when you've got to sit and write, so you've got to be. You know I was having quite a difficult day yesterday so I thought, you know, I'm not going to sit here, I'm ruminating over, just go away. And I really think the curation of your mental health in this job is really important, both in terms of just making sure your brain keeps working, so sleep, water and food and exercise and all of those things. But when you get those negative, imposter syndrome you know everyone's doing better than I am thoughts you do have to sit with them for a minute you have, listen to them and then you have to put whether you need to do it or get someone you trust around you to do it, put the truth in front of you. That goes, you know, and I quite often do the thing where I go.

Speaker 1: 58:21

What would Maz 10 years ago make of where you are now? You know, and not because I don't have a wild success story. I wish, but I am doing the thing that I always said I wanted to do. You know and I and it's so easy to forget that because you know, of course we all want the, the mega success story, but actually just doing it is a success story. The fact that you've had a book published is a success story for multiple, you know, books published. It's a multiple success story. And just going, you know, and I think what would Maz 10 years ago do? And the answer comes back very quickly she'd punch you in your ungrateful face. So stop whining, stop whining Maz now and listen to Maz ten years ago. Who do anything to be sitting down all day making up stories and you know, crack on them.

Speaker 2: 59:06

I'm gonna ask you about, um your new book that will teach you. Oh, yes, I'm like.

Speaker 1: 59:10

I'm like you know what we need to talk about a book, but I was just wanting to say, like you know what we need to talk about that book.

Speaker 2: 59:14

But I was just wanting to say you know, you're talking about your body and looking after your body, because I'm always asked how can you get up so early in the morning and like walk? And I said I'm very much aware, when I was practising law, I was constantly on my feet. I, if I, if I'd had my Apple, I probably did it towards the end, but if I'd had my Apple Watch on continuously, I wouldn't, oh I'd do more than that. More than that, because I'm walking. I'm walking from office to court, around the court building. I was constantly on my feet. This job I do now. It is so stationary and even when I'm teaching. So next week I'm teaching a course, but I'm teaching it online, so I'm I'm still sitting down the week. Yeah, two weeks after that I'm teaching again, but I think I'll be doing it in person. But the point is it's so stationary. So I'm great and I have, I have scoliosis, I have all sorts of stuff going on, so I need to be.

Speaker 2: 1:00:04

After I've been I mean, I've got a deadline after I've delivered the book, the first thing I do is I book an appointment with my chiropractor and Dr Charlotte who's the best, takes one. Look at me. She's like deadline. I'm like yeah, because my back I'm just gonna swear like my back's completely fucked. It's like it's locked. From the last time, when I delivered the book in November, my I was locked from my neck down to my calf. It was. It was just one lock. So not only did I have to see the chiropractor, I didn't have to go and do in the next room. It's not even like it wasn't a massage mass. It wasn't a massage, it wasn't, it wasn't. I didn't come out there feeling all nice and sweet and like covered in oils it's yeah it was.

Speaker 2: 1:00:50

It was an attack, because it's sport therapy, that's what it is. When you've done a marathon, oh my, but I needed it because, oh my god, solid. I always say to her like the masseuse, I'm like you, don't leave me, I don't oil no patchouli here, it's just pain.

Speaker 1: 1:01:20

It's like writer's back, is like the absolute. There's, there's no way around it. You, you can't move and write a book like I say.

Speaker 2: 1:01:27

So, you absolutely know, which is why what you say it's so important, you need to suppose looking after, like, your brain health. You have to look after your body, you have to prioritise those things Otherwise, if it's not working, you can't work.

Speaker 1: 1:01:42

No, it's true. You know, I'm sort of sailing the joyful waves of the perimenopause at the moment and it's just made me so mindful of my physical health and my ability to do anything but my ability to do my job. I have to be faintly sensible about what I do with my body. I'm not always sensible, nadine, I'm not going to lie. We're not always sensible.

Speaker 2: 1:02:06

But when we are, yeah, and it sometimes means like God, I know we're going off on one, but OK, do I have to spend money buying the right chair? Yes, I do. I have to spend the money and I didn't want to, even when I bought this chair. Luckily, I always play the grand national. I'm very lucky. I've you know, I admit I'm very lucky for the grand national and I won on the grand national and I was like what do I do with the money? Because I I won quite big, I did very well and I should have put more on, but I'm a bit of a chicken. But I didn't like what do you need? I said I need a chair. It's like because we're talking about chairs, because he works from home, he's like but why don't you just use your grand national money? I was like that is what. So this chair is my grand national money. But sometimes but sometimes it's about it's like you have to spend, you need to be healthy, much as you might. Where am I spending all my time on this?

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

well, do we think that you know? Um, you know, rafa nadal goes and buys his tennis racket down sports direct, probably the capitol at least when I signed um, when I signed a book deal, I got this.

Speaker 1: 1:03:13

Now this is my joy. Now this won't work very well if you're listening to the podcast. If you can see it, this will work better. I got my sit and it was a few hundred quid. I thought that's extravagant and I thought you work on an upcycled table. You got off Facebook marketplace. You know, treat yourself, love, you're worth it and I think it's where I most day, most of the time, every day, and I do think that's just that. Looking after your body, looking after your mind is not there's this sort of just that. Looking after your body, looking after your mind, is not there's. This sort of self-care is not self-indulgence and self-indulgence is not self-care. It's trying to hit that sweet point where it is actually self-care. You know me sitting and you know eating four packs of fox's chocolate biscuits. That I will, you know, try and file as self-care. No, maz, that's self-indulgence. But investing in a good chair for your back, yeah, or is it? That's not?

Speaker 2: 1:04:14

that is, yeah, looking after the machine yeah, my favorite thing to remind myself, which I heard someone say years and heard it on Oprah years ago, she said it's not Oprah didn't say it, her guest said it. She goes it's not selfish, it's self-full. And I think sometimes that's what and it's good and I'm like, yeah, it's self-full, I'm not being selfish by saying I need this, I need to do that for myself.

Speaker 1: 1:04:32

It's being self-full, so you are so taking care, I think it's one that comes a little bit with a few more miles on the clock, because one yeah, middle-aged is a tricky time for a woman particularly, but one of the things that it really brings with it is the ability to say no or yes to the right things, so and not really angst about them anymore.

Speaker 1: 1:04:52

So if I can't do something now, I don't feel the need to explain why I can't do it so I've sent a long, angsty email 10 years ago saying I'm really sorry, like one of my kids, got a sports day and, uh, you know my back's playing up but I've got terrible hemorrhoid and you know I don't feel the need to explain all of those things anymore, it's just kind of to everyone's mentally well, it's a bit much.

Speaker 1: 1:05:12

You have to explain your hemorrhoids just to be clear, because of a hemorrhoid. I just want that to be very clear for the public record. But you know, now I'm far more confident to just go. No, I can't do that, and you know what tends to happen to do. Strangely, the sky does not fall down when I say I can't do something at the time that suits somebody else. What tends to happen 98% of the time is they find another time that suits me better. It's not what I turned myself into as a younger person to bend around what everyone else needed and you don't actually need to do it anymore. You know you could just say I can't do that and accept you're not going to do the gig.

Speaker 2: 1:05:57

Or what's more likely is, someone will go right, well, can you do that? Instead, and you go yes, that's great. It's such a small thing and you know that word. No, and we build up to be such a big thing in our head like that's how any it only. Even when I went freelance, I became self-employed, like 2013 and people, you know firms are you able to do such and such case and like I don't want to do it because it's out for whatever reason. I don't want to do it, but I'd feel like I if I said no. I had to qualify the no and it took me about a year of doing that before I was like no, are you available? I was like no.

Speaker 2: 1:06:25

I'm not, and they'll be like fine, and then I didn't lose work, because you're always scared about losing work. They're like okay, if you can't do this, can you do this other case for us on this day? Well, yeah, I can do that exactly that and I don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:06:36

We have this terrible fear and I do think it is more of a female thing than a male thing of just saying no to anything and the importance of all my relationships are better in my professional and personal life for saying no. So you know, I've got a particularly crazy year this year with deadlines and things too. So I I've had to say to all of my publishers you know when they cause, you know what publishers are like, we love them, but they'll be a bit. Can you just always, can you just? Can you just?

Speaker 1: 1:06:59

I'm not much for it saying no, I can't, this is not, you're not. You're not on the. You know you're not on the call sheet. This week. I'm doing this.

Speaker 2: 1:07:16

I'm going to have like me. No, they won't. No, I don't mean, but who knows?

Speaker 1: 1:07:20

you arsehole. You arsehole for not making a two-minute video. Exactly what I said. You know, it's not a problem and I think and I find myself, I'm at that age now, I'm that annoying older woman, but when I meet younger women, I was, I did a school event last week.

Speaker 1: 1:07:33

I was this gorgeous librarian who kept saying sorry for things that weren't her fault. So I was like can I have a glass of water? She was like sorry, sorry, I should have got you one. It's like no, because you don't have the gift of prophecy. So I was going to ask for one, so it's fine. And then she went I'm sorry, it's in such a small glass. I'm like it's still water though, isn't it? Which was the main? That was the water, that was the water. And I said to her at the end I said you are so glorious. I said but please, can I save you 20 years? Stop saying sorry, but things aren't your fault. So what does she say? Sorry, kind of. We sort of apologise and over-explain, and I have found that everything in my professional life works better when I say no, I can't Again.

Speaker 1: 1:08:17

You asked about that first deadline, those early deadlines. I remember. I shan't name the publisher, but they landed edits on me on Christmas Eve and wanted them back on the 2nd of January. No, right Now it's a hard no and there is no hemorrhoidal explanation required, like just hell, no. But then I was like you know, little panting puppy wanting to please, so it totaled my Christmas. So literally there my kids are playing with the toys on boxing day. I'm like, yeah, that's great, it makes a noise, brilliant. Shut up Mommy's writing Because I and I had to cancel our plans with friends, I had to leave the family big party, that we had to go and sit and work somewhere because I had to do it.

Speaker 1: 1:09:00

And I'm like what, who was working over? Who was working? No one, no one, no one was working, like there was no need for it. So and I ate total for my Christmas and then I do that thing and you know, this can happen as a writer a lot where you're not doing your book very well and you're not doing your humaning very well. So at that point I'm a bad mother, I'm being a bad partner, I'm being a bad daughter, I'm being a bad sister, I'm being a bad friend and I'm also being a bad author, because I'm resenting the book for taking me away from all that and I'm resenting them for taking away from the book and no one's happy like Like nobody's happy. But now I would absolutely say I'm not going to do that because I'm taking the week off to spend Christmas with my family. Absolutely, I will pick this up on the whatever January when I'm back at work, you know, and it works.

Speaker 2: 1:09:43

It's crazy.

Speaker 2: 1:09:44

Well, I am going to ask you about your book, but if there's one thing, I was talking about the gender thing and men, and I don't know where I heard this study, but you know, it's like, um, men will just say they can do anything, whereas women will be like, oh no, I'm not sure. And they basically said you know, ask a woman, you know, can you fly this plane? No, listen, no, I I cannot fly a plane. Ask a man yeah, I reckon I could do it. That's all I would go. And they said that's the difference. So you're like we need to be more? Yeah, just give it a go.

Speaker 1: 1:10:15

Have you ever seen seminal work on this? That is the best example of it, which is the uvra of peppa pig, which is one of the best programs ever created. I love peppa pig. It is the best. But they have it. It's so. It is brilliantly satirical, as the best children's programs are. They are brilliant. Yeah, I don't know, and they have. This is mummy pig and daddy pig, and daddy pig always says it is brilliantly satirical as the best children's programmes are. They are brilliantly observed and they have this mummy pig and daddy pig and daddy pig always says I'm a bit of an expert in that. The father of my children is exactly that guy. He'll watch five minutes of like the luge at the Winter Olympics and go oh yeah, I can do that.

Speaker 1: 1:10:56

Where's your wind resistance, bob? Where's your resistance? You don't know what you're talking about. It's like absolute rubbish, like quantum mechanics.

Speaker 2: 1:11:06

Yeah, I can do that all right, madge, would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about that little teacher I'm holding it up because, you never know, I might show a clip I've got, I've got me, I've just got me first oh, you got that. Oh, I've got the proof. Let me see the final copy. That's so pretty. It doesn't get old, does it when you get your book in your hand?

Speaker 1: 1:11:29

this is number 17 and it is, I'm frankly, probably more interested than I was in my babies because, frankly, by the time I was over it, you're over that. Oh yes, another one. So this is so. This is my second um comedy crime novel and it is uh set in a rural primary school, uh, in the fictitious town of flatford, which is absolutely in no way based on the Dorset rural town that I grew up in, and it centers on the murder of the reviled head teacher, miss Claudia Stitchwell, who drops dead at an event at the school and initially everybody thinks that she has a terrible nut allergy and that somebody has which is completely forbidden in schools has bought nuts into a cake and they think that's what happened.

Speaker 1: 1:12:18

But a group of parents get a little bit suspicious that there is something else at play and the detective force in this book, rather than the police or you know anyone who knows what we're talking about, is the Year 6 whatsapp group. So, uh, the year six parents whatsapp group decide that they are going to solve this crime. So the book is told through a combination of uh, of whatsapp groups, of uh of um media reports, of um reports from the police, of the school newsletters, um, but it is mainly told from the point of view of the four main suspects. So we know only four people can have done something that killed this woman, and they're the school bursar, the school cook, the acting head teacher and the school TA, all of whom had myriad motives to kill this woman. But it's also having raised four children had motives to kill this woman. Um, but it's also having raised four children. It is my little homage to the absolute batshittery that is the parents whatsapp group.

Speaker 2: 1:13:20

Uh, it is where like all whatsapp groups, I don't think parents whatsapp groups kind of have the monopoly on this.

Speaker 1: 1:13:25

It's where sense and reason go to die. You know, about the slightest thing. And what I find fascinating about the parents whatsapp groups is that I kind of you know. Obviously, we all know social media is very hostile place and I, I hate that. I, you know I, I want to quit social media about three times daily. Um, and I don't understand it. I will never understand humans, unkindness or lack of empathy or listen to one another. I will never get it it.

Speaker 1: 1:13:52

But there isn't at least some logic in like saying something horrible to someone you'll never have to see and deal with the ramifications? You know, there's at least sort of it's not a nice thing to do. It's not a kind thing to do, but there's some sort of safety in being at distance. What I don't understand about parents' WhatsApp groups is you're going to see these mofos every, every single day at the school gates for anything up to seven years, so that it all kicks off about whatever, and then you're all going to see you all stand there at the Christmas Carol concert. Go, you're right, ted it's ridiculous, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 1:14:24

it's great interesting to hear your views on anti-vaxxing Ted. Uh, you know, would you like a celebration?

Speaker 2: 1:14:31

but it's like they're like um, the next door app group. It's so passive, aggressive in there and the next door app is the most passive, aggressive thing I've ever seen in my life and I'm gonna call her Barbara. I went on there one day and bloody Barbara's complaining about squirrels. I'm like there's nothing you can do about the squirrels, they're just squirrels and I'm like I'm not. I'm not spending my Sunday.

Speaker 1: 1:14:55

I'm just not doing it. I hope this will be published far enough, away from it. We'd say I was in pieces on Sunday with one of my kids whatsapp groups. Well, I actually kind of it's relevant to the book. Um, they're um, two of the kids are doing a charity sale. They have charity weeks at this child's school and two of the kids taking it upon themselves to do a cake sale to raise money for young carers, which is like lovely cause, brilliant, very close to where I was one and my books are about them. So like good on you kids, what a nice thing to do all through.

Speaker 1: 1:15:22

But but they've said that because they have some very serious um allergies at the school. Only they can only have like shop bought, pre-prepared things. They can't have homemade cakes and this was explained, that kind of. You know they have some severe airborne allergies at the school. So therefore you know you can't be too careful. I have to say awful I I. This is a cause quite close to my heart because when I was at school we lost a student at the school due to a nut allergy for anaphylactic reaction. So I absolutely can't be careful enough about this stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:15:49

But the parents on my whatsapp group. I mean you would think apoplectic with rage about the fact that they can't make the you know carrot cupcakes and that this was some repression of human rights, that that you know. Let's call him fabian. Their boy, uh, wouldn't be able to make his signature. You know butterfly icing cakes and uh, and it was Nadine. It's the government. That's the problem. That's where this comes from. There's many states Also. You've got an airborne anaphylactic-inducing shock. Stop being such a snowflake about it. Let me bring in my coffee and walnut cake Did you get there in my day?

Speaker 2: 1:16:31

I did.

Speaker 1: 1:16:32

Absolutely. And it got to the point where one woman's going do you know what? I'm gonna move to outer space, because I think that's the only place that he says I'm like no one's stopping you just need to go to safe breeze pop down aldi, pick up a cherry bakewell, go home and bake a revenge.

Speaker 1: 1:16:50

Chop coffee and walnut cake, make it, knock yourself up, make an almond sponge, make some marzipan, fill your house with airborne allergens, you know, because you can, you lucky duck, because you're not going to die. But this one woman started it and I thought everyone was just going to quietly go. All right, barbara, no, oh no.

Speaker 2: 1:17:11

Everyone jumps on board.

Speaker 1: 1:17:13

So that will teach her. It is kind of my homage to that dynamic on the whatsapp group that can easily wind itself up, but also kind of the good side of it, because they can engender lovely community and when something goes wrong, you know, those groups can really come together and help but they can also cause untold, you know damage with. Uh, you know we touched on the traitors earlier but that group think kind of all one, yeah and about that, and now I think about it and get people and things in a lot of trouble can we talk about traitors, though for a little bit before I go into your last final questions?

Speaker 2: 1:17:45

right, but traitors is nuts, it's the whole. It's when they start giving their explanation as to why we call her barbara. Barbara must be a traitor. Well, she just breathed funny breathe.

Speaker 1: 1:17:56

Do you see the way she ate her shreddies? Breathe, I know they'll go. So usually it comes out like a couple of people, doesn't it so? So it's barbara and ted, right? So, uh, barbara ate her shreddies, funny, and. And ted's got some strange views about anti-vaxxers, you know whatever it is. So they'll go in on them and um, and ted doesn't.

Speaker 1: 1:18:17

Ted doesn't want to put his novel in three parts, so obviously so, barbara. Barbara doesn't like squirrels and she wants to. She wants to bake off your walnut and she's going to shred. He's funny. Ted will not listen to some common sense publishing advice and doesn't agree with immunization and thinks we're all being monitored, you know, through 5g um. So it's ted, it's tense, it's not. So ted then is uh, no, I'm 100 faithful. So what actually? The next night they don't go back and go. Well, I'm on, barbara, you still don't like squirrels. You did eat your shreddies, funny, you didn't get the same barbara, I was watching they just the herd moves on to something completely different. A number of times they miss the person who was the silver choice.

Speaker 2: 1:19:00

What was her name? Was it Mina? She was epic because when that girl cried, I was like you need to give her an award, because she was there, bawling her eyes out, saying it's not me, and I was just like she was sensational, she was like she did.

Speaker 1: 1:19:16

She deserved to win the whole thing. I think she should have won that we all wanted to win because she was flawless, wasn't she? She was absolutely flawless. And then along comes little faux well, charlotte irritated me oh, she was sneaking on sneaker, wasn't she? But she played that and absolutely they did a very, very good.

Speaker 2: 1:19:39

They did a good job yeah me and I was like no, give that girl an award, give her the money because she was amazing and ruthless and brilliant.

Speaker 1: 1:19:50

But I just love that as a group psychology thing and I guess they must have a little contact with the outside world whilst they're doing it. So when you're in those very intense you know, pressure cooker situations, I'm sure we would all go 17 shades of batshit. But it's so fascinating to see how certain personalities in the group can turn everyone to their way of thinking. You know, with like you say, you're the barrister absolutely no evidence whatsoever this is what baffles me.

Speaker 2: 1:20:18

It means it baffles me in general about people.

Speaker 2: 1:20:20

I'm like you've got nothing, you've literally you are literally saying because they blinked when you came into the room and that is your evidence. You've got nothing to back up as to why you think they're a traitor, but they'll run with it. And there was. I know we're going off on trades, but there was one episode. I can't remember what his name was now, um, the black guy, I don't know if it was leo, leo, I can't remember leon, leon, leon, I think it was leon, and he went. The young guy, yeah, so they took yeah, yeah yeah, he was.

Speaker 2: 1:20:49

They buried him. They buried him and he came out and he was a little bit you know, a little bit kept to himself, a little bit, quite not the same. And the blonde, the one who won, the blonde girl can't remember her name now, but she was like you know, we're friends and you're not. You're not yourself, you've just been different. So I'm now thinking you're a traitor. And he literally said it was like you know, you start to think differently when you've been buried alive. I'm like I would like to think you would be. I would like to think that would change your perspective on everything. If you've spent like a good hour in a coffin, I was just like why can't you see the sense of what he's saying?

Speaker 1: 1:21:27

Not a chatty, Cathy, when you come out I'd say I'd go. I was just quietly quite traumatic. That actually might need a minute to process. Might need a minute to get around living in a small box.

Speaker 2: 1:21:38

I've seen her drink. Was I drinking? I was dry January. I probably wasn't drinking. I probably wanted to drink after that. I'm like the man's been buried alive. The man's been buried alive. Give him a little bit of grace, barbara. Come on Back up the bus woman.

Speaker 1: 1:21:50

This is not a game.

Speaker 2: 1:21:52

Right, I'm going to do your questions. See, I always think I know the answer, but you could surprise me. Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid?

Speaker 1: 1:22:02

of the two. Well, my daughters came up with this great phrase an omnivore, which I think is right. So I am 50 percent of both. Actually, I present to yeah, who has spent upwards of 30 seconds in my company, as an extrovert, but when I've had a period of of high octane sort of exothermic social interaction, I absolutely need to come sit in the shed and be on my own for a bit. Um, and I need to recharge again.

Speaker 1: 1:22:26

I'm realizing that as I get older, that because particularly the children's space have to do a lot of quite high energy performance stuff so well is coming up. I will be a broken woman at the end of world book week because it's five days of eight hours in a school going. I will just need to come home and not speak to another human being, but it's, I mean, it'll be yeah, uber Eats for breakfast, lunch and dinner. So I think I'm an omnivore. I think you have to be an introvert. Don't need to write books. You have to sit quietly on your own with your own thoughts for a lot of time.

Speaker 2: 1:22:59

So yeah, I'd say I'm both okay and I was. I now qualify this by saying it can be a good or bad experience, but what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 1:23:12

I think that early rejection of who let the gods out, certainly professionally, because it taught me a really important lesson about the difference between self-delusion and self-belief and we've sort of touched on this with um. You know, with working with aspirin authors that the line can be very, very thin and deep. Yeah, it was like with with. There aren't even two books I've really believed in which are who let the gods out and over my dead body, and they have been my two most successful books, and both times they were both nearly rejected out of hand, but both times I believed in them and I pushed it to, you know, to get them out there because I really thought they were good.

Speaker 1: 1:23:50

But other things are just delusions. That's our unmitigated crap and I'm sort of learning the difference between the two. That kind of, just because I want something to be good doesn't actually mean that it is, and I think having that rejection and going away go well, I can't do this and then go. No, I really do believe in this thing. Actually, there are changes I need to make. I need to listen to the feedback I've had and you know, and as we discussed, I made those changes and then the second time it went out. It got taken up. So I think that sort of experience of using rejection wisely was very, very helpful.

Speaker 2: 1:24:19

Okay. So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 1:24:25

Oh god, look at yourself naked a lot. Take pictures. Yeah, celebrate your body, my dear, because you don't get to keep it. But that's it. I don't know about you. We've discussed the deal. We're of an age.

Speaker 2: 1:24:38

I wouldn't go back there for all the tea are you going to pay me to go back to my 20s?

Speaker 1: 1:24:42

maybe gold to be 25 years old again. Um, I would say I would just say to her hold tight, love it all comes, you know. It comes out in the wash like don't be in such a rush. It does come, you know. You do everything that you want. Enjoy, smell the roses for a bit. Are you going to be knocked up in two years time? So you're in a captive breeding program, babe, for most of your 30s. All the sambuca and a lot of like mayonnaise and all the stuff you're not gonna be able to eat for much of the next 15 years. Um, um, yeah, hold tight as it's on its way. You know it's on the horizon for you okay, this is my new one.

Speaker 2: 1:25:21

What is your non-writing tip for writers?

Speaker 1: 1:25:25

oh, non-writing tip non-writing okay, so we've covered off exercise and governmental health stuff. I think surrounding yourself with nourishing people in this business is really important. So, um, find the people who make you feel good, who are straight with you and you know good to you. But I think nourishing people are really really important because you know not to do publishing down again, because we haven't done that no, we haven't done that already.

Speaker 1: 1:25:52

There are some um difficult personalities or people you don't get on with, or just toxic people and I think it can be quite tempting weirdly again, we do it, being a 14 year old to court those people and want to be in their circle or in their orbit or have them blur people because and I'm just like, why, like, why you're? You've not? I'd have been very nice to you, you're not very nice to people at large, why am I bothering? So why not, you know, be with these lovely people who are incredibly supportive? And so I think, choose the people you put around yourself quite carefully and make sure that they nourish you and they support you and they make you feel good, because friendship in in this business is quite weird, isn't it? Because there's, yeah, we feel quite competitive, or, you know, like everyone's competing for one 10 pounds, you know, which isn't the case at all, but yeah, it's a messy business, isn't?

Speaker 2: 1:26:37

it. Yeah, sometimes I think it can feel both competitive and transactional. Yes, yeah, which is why it is so. I have my um, I have my. We call ourselves the squad, like I love the squad, because the squad is where we can indulge in our pettiness, talk about whatever's happened with our editors or it's. You know, it's our, it's our safe space.

Speaker 1: 1:26:59

So that's, that's our friend, our little, our friend, and it's so important to have that because they understand exactly what's going on yeah, exactly, and and that's the thing, because it is one of those experiences that is so weird there's nothing like being an author that only really other people who've done it can fully understand it. But it can also. You know, you get those people who humble brag in front of you all the time. There's author friends who are like, oh wow, like you, you you've only been nominated for seven months. Like, oh god, like when I when my book you died on submission.

Speaker 1: 1:27:28

I swear to god, a really good author friend of mine, I don't think she meant it maliciously. She went, it looked like over, my dead body wasn't gonna go. And I'm so disappointed because I really love that book and I really believed it. And she went oh my god. She said dying on submission. She said, in fact, not having a book go to auction. She said I can't imagine how that would feel. I was like, oh, can't you, barbara, all right, love good, happy for you, happy for you, can't you? That's kind of a bit like, oh, you've sold this, oh, I just sold this, and it's like I don't care, I don't need to hear it. So I think, yeah, surround yourself with the, with the good people who will nourish you and help with all those other healths that I think are important to do well here.

Speaker 2: 1:28:09

OK, and finally. Finally, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?

Speaker 1: 1:28:16

Oh, all over the place. So not that I'm an egotist at all, but my website is wwwmazworld.

Speaker 2: 1:28:24

Oh, not even com.

Speaker 1: 1:28:27

I'm not an org. I'm not a org, I'm not a com, not even a country, not even uk. World, oh, world, uh. And then I'm on. Everything is at maz evans. Author, so all the things. I'm pretty rubbish at social media, so you're more likely to hear about. I'm having massive problems with the boiler at the moment. You're going to get a lot, a lot of boiler talk on the socials, uh, but in a month, so hopefully there's stuff about where I'm going to be and what I'm doing, um, so yes, at Maz Evans. Author. On all the things well.

Speaker 2: 1:28:54

That just leaves me to say Maz Evans, thank you. I'm laughing because it's been such a great conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:29:05

I've still forgot. This is a work thing, to be honest. I was gonna say thank you so much for being part of the conversation oh well, thank you also for having me, but thank you for hosting these conversations, because it's a massive investment of your time to do this with everybody and they. They are so valuable. I really enjoy them and I know so many people do so. Thank you for giving me time to take this opportunity.

Speaker 1: 1:29:27

Thank you sincerely. Have an your time to take this opportunity. Oh, thank you. No, thank you sincerely. Have an Uber Eats on me, Paige.

Speaker 2: 1:29:34

Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.