The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Detective Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Alex Hay: The Grey Areas Where Stories Thrive
What makes a truly compelling story? In this deeply insightful episode, I sit down with Alex Hay, author of the award-winning "The Housekeepers" and the newly released "The Queen of Fives," to explore the psychology behind writing con artists and morally complex characters. From learning how to pitch effectively to understanding the complex retail landscape that determines a book's success, he offers rare insights into the business side of creativity.
Whether you're a writer seeking inspiration, a reader curious about the creative process, or simply drawn to stories of persistence and resilience, this conversation offers something deeply meaningful. Listen now to discover why Alex believes the best writing comes from mining your own imagination and pursuing what truly lights you up as a storyteller.
They whisper her name in every corner of town. The lady with a hundred faces, a thousand lives.
Five moves, five days - for such are the rules of her game.
1898. Quinn Le Blanc, London's most talented con woman, has five days to pull off the seemingly impossible: trick an eligible duke into marriage and lift a fortune from the richest family in England.
Masquerading as a wealthy debutante, Quinn is the jewel of the season. Her brilliant act opens doors to the grand drawing rooms and lavish balls of high society - and propels her into the inner circle of her target: the corrupt, charismatic Kendals.
But as she spins in and out of their world, Quinn becomes tangled in a dangerous web of love, lies and loyalty. The Kendal family all have secrets of their own, and she may not be the only one playing a game of high deception...
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Right, you do need to push yourself to be brave and be courageous enough to go for the material that's weirder or stranger or feels more dangerous, because actually that is the stuff that's going to be the most gripping.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well, I hope that you're having a good week and I hope that you're taking your antihistamine, that you're having a good week and I hope that you're taking your antihistamines. I'm only saying that because I get hay fever so early, like mine starts in March. I'm going to add it to the tree blossom and or the tree pollen, I should say. And it's just been, it's been knocking me about a bit, it's not been nice. So I hope you're taking your antihistamines. Other than that, so I hope you're taking your antihistamines. Other than that, there's not really much to report.
Speaker 2:I am back in editing mode on book four, which is called the Shadow Carver. If you didn't know that, then you know that now Book four in the Inspector Anni series is called the Shadow Carver and I'm doing hopefully it will be my last set of structural edits for that and then it will go back for line edits, copy edits and then the proof copies and then finally, on the 26th of February 2026 god, I can't believe I'm even thinking about 2026, but that's where we are 26th of February 2026, the shadow carver will be available to buy. It'll be out there on the bookshelves and you can also pre-order it now. I might as well throw it in there. What's the point of having a podcast if you can't do your own little bit of self promo? So pre-order the shadow carver now. So that's been me, really. I've just been doing my edits.
Speaker 2:I went away on a writer's retreat last week, which was actually a lot of fun and much needed, and that's going to be me, I think, until June, just writing and enjoying the downtime, because June is when I am back on the festival circuit. Sound like a comedian, don't I? Back on the circuit? But anyway, sound like a comedian, don't I? Back on the circuit? But anyway, that's what I'll be doing from June making my festival appearances. Anyway, enough of me rambling, let's get on with the show. This week, I'm in conversation with Alex Hay. His debut novel, the Housekeepers, won the Caledonia Novel Award 2022. And his new novel, the Queen of Fives, is out now. Alex and I talk about how to push ourselves as writers and to be brave as writers. We also spoke about having the courage to scrap your work and start again, the hidden factors behind a book's success and exploring morality as a writer. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the Conversation. Alex, hey, welcome to the Conversation.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me thrilled to be here.
Speaker 2:Right, my first question for you, and I thought it was clever, but it might not be. But I was thinking why are you so attracted to the con or the art of the con? Because your first book, the Housekeeper, mrs King, is a con artist, and also with the Queen of Fives. So why the con?
Speaker 1:Why do I have this dark, devious soul?
Speaker 2:Basic, guess what I was asking.
Speaker 1:Why do I secretly long to commit acts of grand larceny? It's a really good question. So I suppose the honest answer is heists and cons, I think, are a gift to a writer because they're quite bloodless crimes. So you sort of set aside the gore, but they're beautiful on structure. So heists in particular. You've got such clear movements to a heist, so you gather your team, you unveil your plan, you throw as many obstacles in their way as you can, you try and pull everything off with as much razzle dazzle at the end as you can muster all of that I really love structurally and plot is my Achilles heel, so so the framework of a story is something I always have to work really, really hard on.
Speaker 1:So heists definitely give me that. And cons cons, I think are brilliant. If you love books about doubleness and deceit and duality and I do I just love people who are constantly shifting skins and playing with themselves and the reader. So for me, a con just gives you all that delicious psychological material to play with. So, yeah, love them.
Speaker 2:In a very strange way. When I was working as a criminal lawyer, I used to really like doing fraud cases because I feel like there's a great manipulation there. You know of defendants manipulating everybody, and I'm always just intrigued as to how your mind works. It's not something that just happens, it's opportunistic. You know. It's not just a fight in the pub.
Speaker 1:There's planning involved yeah, it's so true, and actually I mean I hate him to add at this point. I think I would be really bad at it, obviously I would say that in this juncture, but I think that sort of ability to play lots of chess pieces ahead is a real. It's a particular type of brain that can do that and I actually don't think I have that brain. I'm not very good at predicting what someone's action, reaction, action is going to be lots of steps in the future, and I think, as a true con artist, you've got to do that. You've got to be able to sort of of steps in the future. I think, as a true con artist, you've got to do that. You've got to be able to sort of forecast what all the different, um, mental challenges you're going to face are going to be. I think I'll be rubbish, but writing them love it it's basically chess, isn't it?
Speaker 2:and the thing I used to go to chess club when I was younger with my brother did you yeah yeah, weirdly, but I'm not the best chess player, but I think that's because it's that anticipation of what someone's doing five or six steps ahead. Well, I'm just thinking about let me just move my little bishop now, not thinking about what's going to happen.
Speaker 1:Totally, I think that's exactly it, and I think that's why we sort of love these stories of people who are really adept at working out what somebody's weak points are going to be and knowing exactly how to formulate your story so that you'll press on all of their insecurities, um and and then pull off whatever ruse. You're trying to pull off with um as as successfully as possible. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's really dark art, and I think you know, for me as well, particularly writing these types of books, you have to work out what is sort of warped morality that your con artists and thieves are working with, because otherwise who cares? Because fraud is fraud. At the end of the day, it's not, you know, it's not the most laudable of skills in life, of skills in life. So, understanding, how do you take that deviousness but um put it towards something that the reader is going to appreciate and care about? Um, I think is is is the tricky part of trying to concoct a connoisseur does it ever um?
Speaker 2:does it ever question? No, I can't get this question out right. Does it ever make you question your own morality? You know where your barometer is.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think so. I think it probably cements it more than anything. And the reason I say that is because writing my new book, the Queen of Fives, trying to come up with the rules of the con within this world, and this story um, showed me pretty quickly that I wasn't going to have much fun writing the book unless there was a sort of underlying moral code to my con artists moves that I could really get on board with. And it became really important quite quickly for her to be targeting people that were really deserving of her particular kinds of attentions. And actually that showed me quite quickly that I do have in me a sort of delicious desire, I suppose, to sort of right the wrongs you see around you and upend the scales of justice, but I do think it has to be in service of something that that you as the writer and the reader can care about it's for the greater good yeah, totally, and the ends justify the means is a really lovely, rich, um ambiguous phrase, isn't it?
Speaker 1:because people throw that out a lot. The ends justify the means. You can do whatever you need to do to get to the end point. If the end is is a virtuous one, but it's um, but yeah, it's a really tricky moral gray area, but I love those gray areas and I love that ambiguity.
Speaker 2:I think the grayers work.
Speaker 1:When you're a writer and you are writing, whether you're writing historical or cozy or procedural you do need those morally gray areas, especially for the main characters totally, and that's a big lesson I've learned, actually um writing away for many years is it's those interesting, weird reactions that a character will have on the page where they're forced to sort of test their own code or act in a way that maybe they think a normal person would do x, y and z.
Speaker 1:But I, protagonist, I'm going to do this because this is my reason and actually I think those are the moments on the page that are really interesting and they definitely really snag me as a reader. When you see a character doing something you're kind of tearing your hair out because I don't do it. But I totally get why you're going to do it, because of your warped worldview. That seems spot on and that's. I think that's. That's a skill I've had to learn over the years to try and be brave enough to find those weird moments on the page where you can just go dig down a few levels deeper and find those odd, strange grey reactions to stuff that the reader as well will go oh, that's strange, but I kind of get it on some sort of deep level don't you find it like a weird thing when you have to, like, remind yourself, as a writer, to be brave?
Speaker 2:I feel like sometimes with myself I'll be like, oh, maybe I can't write about this or maybe I'm pushing it a little bit too far. But then the other side of me is like, no, you need to push it because you need to have those brave moments in order to expand yourself as a writer but also give your reader something different that's a really good point.
Speaker 1:Actually, I hadn't thought about it in those explicit terms before, but you're right, you do need to push yourself to be brave and be courageous enough to go for the material that's weirder or stranger or feels more dangerous, because actually that is the stuff that's going to be the most gripping, and especially at this point, when almost everything has been done, yeah, you've got to find that psychological terrain that's going to feel murkier, um, and if it feels more dangerous to you as you put it down on the page, um, then hopefully it's going to feel more gripping to the reader as well.
Speaker 1:So you're yeah, you're right, you're constantly trying to push yourself to say do I dare expose myself and give my characters the darkest and most dangerous of motivations? Because, you know, when you know my colleague reads this, is she going to think this is how I really feel about stuff. Um, you know, you're constantly telling people it's not autobiographical, but actually you are always trying to excavate those those weird things that are in your own head as well. Just be bold. So, yeah, very wise oh, thank you.
Speaker 2:I have my, I have my moments, I have my wise moments. But it's the thing like you, you are reaching into like a part of yourself. There's always like a little bit of yourself on the page. So you are telling a bit of a white lie when people say, oh, is this you?
Speaker 1:and you're like, no, never but there's a little bit, yeah, you're so. And you're like no, never, but there's a little bit, yeah, you're so right, you're right, this is a very good confessional discussion. You're right Because I do always say, oh no, you know, nothing's based on anybody. I've never written a character that's based on any real person, and that is true. I've never written a character that's based on a colleague or a friend or a family member, but it is always a bit of yourself. You're absolutely right. You give every single character something of yourself. You kind of can't help it.
Speaker 2:You do it inevitably and automatically, and so on that basis, yeah, you're exposing yourself all the time, so yeah but it's, um, it's kind of like you know, when you have those conversations in the shower like I should have said this in an argument and you'd have to you play the whole thing out in the shower, but you actually get to do it on the page, which is like the beauty of writing totally and, oh my god, there's nothing I love more than a really big confrontation scene, just like all dialogue, minimal description, loads of just really sharp back and forth, and that is the place where you get to say everything and be everything you do in your daily life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree with that and I love, I love my characters because they are more, probably more, socially courageous than I am. They definitely will just go into a room and dominate that room and have all the gumption you could ask for and I probably hold myself back a bit more and it is really thrilling and joy-making to just write that way on the page and live that part of yourself that wants to be a little bit more audacious.
Speaker 2:Before I ask you about your writing journey, do you have a favourite con film or heist film? Because I can. I tell you what film popped into my head immediately when I was reading um Queen of Fives. It's the Sting with Robert Redford and Paul.
Speaker 1:Newman and I love.
Speaker 2:The Sting because you know you do the breakdown of how you get the mark and all that and that's how the Sting has each chapter yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, you're spot on, because I definitely was inspired by, um, those classic con stories, be it films or novels, where the steps to the process are everything. You have to follow the particular moves of the con in sequential order in order to get your mark exactly where you need them to be. And I would say as well, actually, I mean from the heists, you kind of can't do better than the Oceans franchise, can you? I mean, I think Oceans 11 structurally is just a masterclass in, again, that sort of framework of pulling all your different component pieces together your team, your plan and then all your surprises along the way. And I also just love that film for the kind of high Vegas gloss.
Speaker 2:It's so stylish.
Speaker 1:It's so stylish and when I was writing the Housekeepers, that's what I was really thinking about. I was thinking I want to take the sort of um gloss of a vegas casino and just replace it with something early 1900s, a big, glittering park lane mansion, um, but but still play with those kind of rackety high stakes vibes, um. So yeah, I, I just love, I love that whole genre because I think it's quite rich and I think it gives you lots of room to take that quite classic caper archetype but then glue it onto perhaps an unexpected or different setting um, whether that's sort of 1900s in my first book or the slightly more gothic sensation fiction vibes of late 1890s, london yeah, in my second and and those are maybe unexpected settings for sometimes that type of plot structure, um, but it's been a real joy to try and glue those two things together can I just say one thing about Ocean's Eleven, because I love Ocean's Eleven but I liked the original one with, you know, frank sinatra, basically with the rat pack in it.
Speaker 2:And the only thing I wish they'd done in ocean 11, in the reboot that they should have taken from the original, is the ending of the original, because when they get the money, but they put the money in a coffin and in the funeral home and then the coffin goes off in the crematorium and on and on.
Speaker 1:It goes, yeah. Well, this is where I have to admit to you, and this is you should call this the confessional they're doing I have never seen the first, the original ocean tv. I've never admitted that to anybody, oh, well, here we go and I haven't, and I haven't. I haven't seen Oceans 8 either, so I was like I feel like a total. I am the. You're right, nadine. Actually, I've just proven it to myself and to everybody okay, it's all right, an Ocean's 11 the original Ocean's 11 is good oh, okay, I'm going.
Speaker 1:Do you know what? I definitely I'm going to go back, I'm going to do my, do my homework retrospectively and I will put that on the coffin conveyor belt moment it's a great moment, so tell me about your writing.
Speaker 2:How would you describe your writing journey and also your class? That you're writing and your publishing journey I think are two different things, so how would you describe both?
Speaker 1:yeah, they are quite different, aren't they? Um, it's my writing journey. I am that cliche of, oh, I've been writing as long as I can remember, and it's really true. I genuinely can't remember a time when I wasn't scribbling down stories in the back of an exercise book or illustrating them or stapling them together, and that carried on all the way through my teens. And I think my writing journey probably came from a reading journey.
Speaker 1:I feel really lucky, actually, actually, that when I was growing up there were things we didn't have in the house but we did have access to books, and I feel forever saved by the Oxfam that was next door that had this pull-out drawer of 10p paperbacks and it was stuffed with I can remember them really vividly these sort of 1960s editions of Enid Blyton books, and I just was totally, totally hooked and I basically just read everything in that drawer, first of all, um, and then was at the library as well, and I just think, actually, that that early discovery of the joy of reading was was really the the ignition point for me wanting to write, and I feel really thankful for it, because I think you know, these days we've all seen those stats on the decline in reading for pleasure amongst children and also just the fact that so many children do not have access to books, don't have books in the home and don't have the time to practice their reading and find that joy of reading.
Speaker 1:So I just think, I think actually that was the sort of start of my writing journey and then just kept writing all the way through. My teens stopped all together at uni and in my early 20s I basically did not write and did not read at all.
Speaker 1:What during uni yeah, no, like I just didn't at all, I think for pleasure. I was reading a lot for my degree, which was history and I deliberately didn't. I didn't do English because I just I loved reading. I didn't want to have to study it, that seems.
Speaker 2:I thought the same to me, did you? Yeah, yeah, I didn't. I did history and American studies, glad, but I don't want to do English because I just want to read books.
Speaker 1:I don't want to discuss them yeah, that's how I felt and I used to feel sometimes in school we would go over poetry and stuff. I'd be like, oh, I don't think the author did mean this. I think that's what the GCSE paper says. I need to say it means, and I just can't bear it. So, yeah, I really avoided English, english lit and English language at uni, um, and I and I just sort of stopped reading and writing for a while, um, and then just really came back to it in the big way in my 20s and, um, I think probably my mid-20s decided OK, I really want to try and get published. And that, I suppose, was the point at which I recognised what you're saying, which is there's a difference between writing and publishing, and if I wanted to be in the publishing game, I was going to have to really understand that profession and work out what's going to be my pathway in.
Speaker 2:What surprised you about it once you was in the publishing game, I think someone.
Speaker 1:Always, you always have a surprise. Yeah, I mean, I think for me I really started taking it seriously and wanting to try and get an agent when I was maybe 27, 28. And I joined a Curtis Brown creative course which was really transformative for me. I really really gained a community and a sense of the reality of the industry from that course and I think the thing that surprised me not surprised me, but I recognised I really needed to learn was the importance of genre and pitching your work and making sure you understood how to package yourself and where to place yourself.
Speaker 1:When you were first writing those cover letters and first trying to get an agent and I think naively, when I was first on that course, I thought, oh, I'll work this out and, um, it'll be great, I'll get myself agent to do no time at all. And of course you you know that was not the case. That was very misplaced arrogance on my part, because I really didn't get it. I couldn't pitch. I could not pitch my books for the life of me. I could not distill the story down into one or two lines and I think it really was.
Speaker 1:No, it's really hard. It's really hard, but I think the reason part of the reason was the stories weren't strong enough. There wasn't that strong through line, there wasn't that strong hook. So learning about hooks and story structure in that very condensed sense and that sort of um packaging your work sense, that was a really big lesson and I really enjoyed it, actually, because I didn't feel as though I was losing anything creatively. It felt like a kind of creative constraint Okay, how can I come up with a proposition for a novel that I am longing to write, that I want to write, that's everything I love on the page but is also saleable? And that felt like a really interesting commercial journey for me. And I, you know, tried and failed at that many times. Because I wrote many books that sit in many drawers and, you know, got rejected many times. Because I wrote many books that sit in many drawers and, you know, got rejected many times. But by the time I got to the housekeepers I was thinking, okay, how can I make this proposition really strong?
Speaker 2:so I suppose that was a surprise to me, but also a journey that I enjoyed learning yeah, because I think last not last week, even this week, because I was work I've been working on a standalone idea and I and I only realised last week that all I've got is like the opening of the idea. I couldn't sum up what the actual story was. It's like oh, I've got a good opening scene, but you can't just you know, you can't just pitch a scene. You need to pitch the actual. You know what I mean the actual story. You need to pitch the actual. You know what I mean, the actual story. And it took me, it only took me after all these years for me to realise. No, you need to work out exactly how it's going to end before you can even come up with an elevator pitch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's true. I mean, I often don't know the ending, though, but I like the creative challenge of trying to come up with hooks. I really enjoy that, and I think I heard Alex Michaelidi saying in an interview that with his screen background he really focuses on irony. What are two opposite things in a story? That when you glue them together, they feel really unexpected and makes the reader go, oh, that's an interesting combination. And that really lit something up in my in my mind, because I realized actually, that's how I've been thinking about hooks, but I hadn't known consciously that that's that's what I was doing. But I quite enjoy that, um, that process of trying to come up with a novel idea that feels um, hooky and interesting and high concept. But I often don't know actually how I would then play any of that on the page. And then that's why I find first drafts absolutely terrifying and, frankly, miserable, because you realize you've got this great idea, you've now got to execute it. What unfair.
Speaker 2:I think that's probably why I was struggling last week. I was and I was like I can write a book. I've written books. It's not like I can't write a book. I should be able to say in five sentences or five lines what this story is about. And I was just really struggling until I said I had to have a very, very strong word of myself and I was like, okay, I need to kind of like take it that, need to take it back to basics that's really interesting.
Speaker 1:Though actually I think you're right, you do have to work out what is it, what is the story, and I I can be quite bad at that I can very happily be like, oh, this feels intriguing, and off I go and actually have to write 90,000 words to work out what it is, which is really time inefficient. So I think you're spot on. Actually, do do. If you can work that out up front, ahead of time, then you're happy days. But I don't know about you. But do you find your first drafts are such a discovery process? Anyway, if you plan it too much ahead of time, you you kind of waste that time sometimes, don't you think?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean I plan, but I always describe my plan.
Speaker 2:It's just, it's an outline, so it's not I don't feel like I need to stick rigidly to okay, this happened at, I say, section 12, and I need to stick rigidly to that because I know things will move and you know random stuff popping pops into your head. Yeah, so the first draft. It can be frustrating getting you know, getting the start. It's maybe like that first 20,000 words because I'm thinking I don't know what this is. This is just a mess. I don't know why these characters are back.
Speaker 2:What we're doing? Why are we here? Let me go and do something else, but then after a while you'll get into the rhythm of something, but then things change.
Speaker 1:So it's just yeah, I always call mine a mess, because it is, it's such a mess, but then I don't mind it at the end because I'm like, okay, now I can fix it because I've got something to work with yeah, and I think I'm becoming more like you, um, because my first so the housekeepers I planned to within an inch of its life, and I would have been nodding along with you, actually, and would have said, yes, I'm a planner too. I love my plan, um, because I had a huge spreadsheet for it and I had every single high speed and all my little grid next to it. But I realized I was looking back at it and I I looked at, I looked at the cells, the individual cells, and they're like hundreds and hundreds, thousands of words. I mean, there were basically chapters in each cell and I was like, no, do you know what, alex? You didn't actually plan that Basically, you drafted that book in Excel, which is even weirder than just being a pantser.
Speaker 1:You pantsed in Excel, which is actually just very strange, just very strange, um. So I think it's like you just do whatever you need to do to kind of take your idea and give yourself enough handholds that can just get you through that first draft. But I think you're right, I think I feel much happier once I've got something down. Yeah, I can then work with and reshape. So, yeah, I think, I think we're aligned in that way yeah, yeah, but we're just not aligned on the spreadsheet.
Speaker 2:I hate excel, excel for passion. So the idea of putting anything in cells, I'm like nope.
Speaker 1:It was weird, it was quite weird actually, and I have to say I then thought, oh, this is great, this is my process and finally, after years and years of failure, I found my process. So for book two, I was like, right out comes, trusty Excel, and off we go again. And I planned it again, although in less detail, and I started to try and write the first draft and it just fell apart completely. It was just completely dead on the page. It didn't work and I went from being a complete planner to a complete um, fly by the seat of my pants, panther and and I never, ever, ever written completely without a plan before and the result of that was a first draft.
Speaker 1:That was an absolute bonfire. It was a bonfire it was. It was quite an interesting process to show me that it doesn't. It didn't matter to me whether I planned it in excel or did it on the page. In the end I was going to have to rewrite the whole thing anyway at the end of the first draft. So whatever I could do to get myself to that point quickly was, was was just going to have to be the way to go did you know what was missing from that first draft, the one that you planned?
Speaker 1:life, vibrancy, infrastructure, cohesion um coherent story framework. Everything I cared about. Yeah, it was like you just wrote a shopping list.
Speaker 1:I did a shopping list and then I kind of it worked on my plan. I don't know if you've ever found this. It worked on the plan. It all felt really, really solid. That was all this. It's great. It's gonna be a really interesting duplicist I can't speak um story of con artists.
Speaker 1:And then I started and it just didn't, yeah, it just didn't hold up. And I wrote do you know what? Let me, let me not be glib about it. I liked the first chapter. The first chapter was quite fun, um, because you know, I could just sort of throw whatever I wanted out there. But then following that on felt felt really tricky and I sort of sent the first 10,000 words to my agent and she said I really like the first chapter, but everything else is just too confusing and crowded. After that, I mean, I'm paraphrasing she was, she was very diplomatic in her feedback and I went away and then tried again and I got to 20 000 words. This time and again it just didn't work. So I just axed it, I just threw it out the window and went back to the beginning, um, and I think I just had to go on instinct there to be like if I was reading this. That's the only. That's the only test I can use that I trust is my own reading instinct, other than getting outside feedback.
Speaker 2:So if I'm reading this and feeling like it feels lifeless, then it probably is, so I need to give another go there's bravery in that as well, though isn't there for you to write whether you've written 10,000 words or 20,000 words or the whole book, and then look at it and say this is not working, this is not what I, this is not how I imagined it in my head, and then say right, I'm just going to scrap it and start again, because some people just don't know well.
Speaker 1:I've written it, so off you go yeah, and I've heard people who've really ditched books right at the 11th hour. I mean, I don't know if you've ever given up on a project really far down the road, um, because I've never done that, but I think it does take courage, all right to bin something. Have you ever, have you ever, tossed stuff aside?
Speaker 2:I haven't not a whole book. No, I haven't tossed the whole book. I mean, I've tossed ideas, like I've written outlines. I'm very much an outlining. I feel like I'm just talking to myself, though, when I do an outline, so I'm just chatting to myself about the book yeah yeah, and I've tossed those out and I'm like this is, this is just rubbish. I don't know what this is, so I've just tossed it to the side but once I start.
Speaker 2:I think once I sit down and I've committed to it, I've probably done all the other stuff. Anyway, I've already done the. This doesn't work, this does work. What is this all about? Before I actually sit down and start writing?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's instinct, isn't it? You kind of yeah, I think that's a really interesting point. You just made that by the time you've actually written the book, you've done a lot of that thinking time and other stuff that goes into sort of testing whether a project has legs. I think I like that idea of writing an outline, writing sort of I don't know almost like a treatment for the book. Yeah, that doesn't commit you and allows you to be like ah, it's not gonna work, and then you can give it away. But yeah, actually junking like a full sort of edited 90 000 words, oh, that's a terror. But I can imagine doing that. I really can imagine doing that. When you get to the end you're just like nope no, I think that would just scare me too much.
Speaker 2:I'll be like no, I've committed, I've done it, I've got here yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm halfway through the, you know when you're swimming, not not like. I have swimming the English channel like.
Speaker 1:I can't turn around.
Speaker 2:You're doing that yeah, like I can't turn around and go back yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1:And also there's practicalities to all of this as well, isn't there? Because you know if you've got a deadline, you've got a deadline and you can't. You can't be like being a complicated artist and deciding that's not going to do. You've got.
Speaker 2:You've got work to deliver you know you've got to get on with it.
Speaker 1:I think for me it was. It was interesting because book one we had a one book deal, so for me I was really it was. It was just on me to produce book two. No one was expecting it or needing it and I really felt as though I've got this opportunity now but I don't want to let myself down. So if I can't, if I can't get the first chunk of it right, then then I definitely am not going to sell the rest of it.
Speaker 2:So I think that was sort of part of the driver in me of like I really want to try and give it my best, the best shot, but yeah, so you know what I've never thought of second book syndrome, like there being different sides to it, because I've always come at second book syndrome from the position of I've written the first book and now I'm under contract, so, regardless, I have to write this book. So it's a different sort of pressure, but it's completely different with when your position is well, I only had one book deal, so now this one has to get me another book. No one's asking for it. It's like you kind of have freedom with that that you don't have when you're under contract and someone's demanding it yeah, you do.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's a such a funny thing, isn't it? Because the grass is always greener, right, if, if, when I've got my very first publishing contract. Just being totally honest in this safe space, no one's listening to us no one's listening to us, just a chat um.
Speaker 1:I, I, I definitely would have said, oh, I think a two book contract is the sort of publishing standard of, you know, security, and you'll know you'll have a second book coming out. And actually, in hindsight, everything you just said was absolutely true. I did feel a big sense of relief that in a way I could really think about what do I want book two to be? And I've got no deadline on me to get started. The only pressure is coming from me and actually I'm probably tougher on myself than anyone else would be on timings and timelines and schedules.
Speaker 1:So, actually having that freedom to sort of be like, right, I'm going to hustle, let's see what I can come up with. What can I conjure for book two? But? But, but doing so with a bit of um fire under my toes, it's not afraid. Um was, was was good actually, but it was quite scary because I just also thought, oh you know, if I, if I can't, if I can't sell book two, um, that's going to feel like a shame. So I've got to really try and put my best foot forward and try and make it happen. So it was good pressure.
Speaker 2:What have you learned about yourself? Because I didn't realise about, I didn't think I was a perfectionist at all, like I would never have described myself as a perfectionist. But I was talking to a friend of mine who's also a writer, again about getting the outline, getting the story right. She's like you just goes, you're such a perfectionist, you just want to get it right. And I'm like, oh, I do, and I didn't realize I had that. That was part of me, like I need to get. I want to get it right. From the beginning.
Speaker 1:I wanted to, but it can't always be perfect oh, I love that, though that's a really lovely thing to learn about yourself that you have that sort of care for the detail and storytelling, and I think that's I think that's really. That's really nice. Actually, what have I learned about myself? Hmm, oh, it's a really hard question. I mean, there's lots I feel I've learned from a story craft perspective. Yeah, that's not personal, but has been really interesting and I think realising what I did not know how to do was very, very helpful.
Speaker 1:So everything from sounds like obvious, but when you're, when you're sort of creating a story, I haven't always thought enough about the sort of through line of the plot. What, what is the reader uncovering? What are they, um, what are they showing up for? What are the big narrative questions that need to be asked on page one and answered on page final page? And I sort of knew lots of that, um, vaguely and sort of through theory, and I'd read lots of writing, books and books about writing. But it sounds really naive to say I hadn't actually understood how you execute that on the page, how you give the reader enough information to take them through each chunk of the book and then divert them or misdirect them at key moments that very carefully timed so that they won't become completely confused and lost within the plot. I just didn't have those nuts and bolts skills of putting a book together until I was working with editors and that was a massive, massive learning process for me and really valuable.
Speaker 2:See, I don't think that's naive to say that at all, because those things aren't just. You don't just naturally just know those things. There's skills in that. I was asked you know if I plan my twists? I'm like, no, I don't know when my twists are coming, but there is. But I suppose over time you do develop a knack and a knowing as to when to create a red herring or when to create a diversion, but you don't. You may not necessarily have known that when you first started writing a book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how many books ago it was. Yeah, that's so true, and actually my one of those. I remember 10 years ago when I first went on that Curtis Brown creative course. I did not know interior monologue was a thing. I didn't even realise when I was reading books that there's dialogue and an action and then the character thinks something about what they're doing and it's a, it's a technical skill to put it on the page.
Speaker 1:I just was reading instinctively in books. I just didn't know to do it in my own work and someone said to me it's all it's good, but it feels a bit like a screenplay. It's just like action, reaction, action, reaction and there's nothing sort of emotional happening underneath the surface. It's like, yes, there is, it's like well, in your head maybe, but the reader's not seeing it. So I think you're so right. They're skills, they're technical skills that you learn about how to, how to make a book, um, and I've loved that, I've really loved that craft side of things. So just um, yeah, picking up and picking up all of those technical skills and I suppose, the personal piece, I would say what have I learned about myself? Do you see? I did a big diversion there.
Speaker 2:I was doing the lawyer thing. I'll just let you carry on talking, just carry on.
Speaker 1:I think, um, I think it's shown me that I do have a really strong sense of ambition and, um, I think publishing is.
Speaker 1:It's a bit like the wild west, isn't it? You've got you've got a lot of opportunity out there and you've got some incredible talent. Um, a lot of horses charging around the field and you've got to kind of work out, okay, what is my place in this game and what's the, what's the path I'm trying to forge here and how do I stay really focused on that and how do I, you know, not be delusional and work out how the industry works and build a really good network and build the right foundation within this um, but also, you know, continue to dream really big and not feel scared and try and try and coach yourself almost to um, just try and think about, okay, what's my identity in this, in this game, and and what's my, what's my plan, how am I going to try and make this happen? And I've really enjoyed that. It's showing me that I do have more hustle in me than maybe I realized it does bring out a side of you, doesn't it publishing?
Speaker 2:because I've realized this I mean, I've always known this about myself like I don't like being distracted by all of the noise, and in publishing there's a lot, there's a lot of noise, you know there's. There's the I say, the professional noise which you'll pick up in the bookseller, but then there's the noise that you'll get from people in, I don't know, various writing groups or whatsapp groups who are happy publishing, some aren't happy publishing, some aren't happy with their deal, some are jumping up and down about their deal, and there's so much around you that I've had to be like no, I just have to. Just it's too much, like I can't take it um.
Speaker 2:So for me it's been. Yeah, it's been focused like I can. I usually get very distracted, but I found a way to be focused for all that distracting noise, I think that's a really good skill to learn.
Speaker 1:I need to learn from you actually, because I do feel it's quite hard not to sort of get sucked into the I wouldn't even call it comparisonitis, but just like the energy of lots of other people's dreams and ambitions all around you. I think it must be quite hard actually to be an agent and have to be dealing with new authors every year who are all kind of coming to you with their, um, our fragile egos and like needs and hopes and dreams, and having to sort of help everybody forge a pragmatic path through the industry and not sort of just live completely in fairyland. And I think that's something I've also had to learn. I'm just like, how do I, yeah, tune, tune out the wrong stuff, but tune into the right stuff, um, but I, you know, I've I have to say I've watched with great admiration the way you have forged what I think is just a really supportive path to other writers.
Speaker 1:You've built an amazing network around this podcast and there's so many strings to your bow as well. You know. There's so many elements to what you do as an author. It's not just the writing, it's everything around that, and I think that's really inspiring actually for people to see coming into this business, that it is a business and so you need to be clear on what's the sort of portfolio stuff you're trying to do with your time. That feels like you've got lots of fingers and lots of pies and can can make a positive impact, um, and I think that's that's. That's something I hugely admire in you and I think it's. I think it's exciting to see people being quite entrepreneurial about their author careers and, and, yeah, building a strong platform for themselves that's very, very kind of you.
Speaker 2:But, um, you know I'm thinking, you know you're talking about, like this profession, you're very aware of other people's hopes and dreams. I was thinking it's so true, like everyone's hopes and dreams and their ambitions and their fears, it's all out there and it's probably I think probably the same in all creative industries.
Speaker 1:Whether you're a musician or an artist, your hopes and dreams are that are out there, and you're very much aware of what other people want yeah, I think so, and I think when you're in those you were sort of saying writing groups as well with other writers, you, you gain huge comfort, I think, from recognizing that everybody doesn't want the same thing but everybody cares about it as much as you and I've really enjoyed that.
Speaker 1:I've really enjoyed being around other writers who are super professional, really generous, really kind, um, really creative and really focused on their craft, and it just I find it really inspiring actually, because it just helps you lift your own game yeah um, and you definitely notice those good eggs who, behind the scenes as well, will be the first to pop you a note or a message or a dm just to say, actually I've seen something good has happened for you, but I know that carries stress as well. So I hope you're okay and you know, yay for you. But if you ever need any advice on anything, let me know. I'm always here and I've really noticed that some of the most established and successful people are also those people who do that, and I think that's a really interesting signal that actually that's how you um I don't know that's that's how you know that you're around some really, really good authors who are just um, very, very supportive support is so.
Speaker 2:It's so important in this industry because and I always say, you know, you spend so much time on your own in front of your computer or wherever, writing your books and then you go out into, as you call it, the wild west of publishing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're a kindly saloon owner to invite you in yeah, yeah, I mean, it's not the, it's not the. No, it's not the nicest of phrases, is it? I definitely, maybe I shouldn't say that, but I did. It's funny. I said do you know the reason I say it is because I um, this is just me being very honest.
Speaker 1:I came back from my very first Harrogate and I really loved it. I really enjoyed it. Everything everyone says about Harrogate absolutely great, great. But I said to my husband he's like, how was it? And I was like, honestly, I think it's like the wild west and you walk into the saloon and then either you were going to get on your big horse and charge across the prairie and have a great victorious time, or the saloon doors are going to whack you in the face so hard because you can become completely overwhelmed by it. And I definitely felt quite overwhelmed going into that tent the first time. So, yeah, and so I say I say wild west with lots of love, because I think it's also about okay, what am I going to do? To jump on my own big horse here, like, like, what's my journey? Because otherwise you can just become completely bamboozled by the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it can be very, very overwhelming, especially in a place like Harrogate. I remember my first time I went I think I was probably kind of lucky because it was the first one after COVID, so it was kind of like a slimmed down version of Harrogate. So me and my little group, we were like, oh no, this is fine, this is perfect. The next year? Oh my god, I've never been so exhausted. I think I got sick at when I came home because I was just knackered and it's just so intense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. It's really intense. It's all those conversations and all those professional conversations and social conversations, because it's. This is a, this is a world in which, um, you're with your peers and your colleagues, but it's also your dream and your passion. So the energy can't be anything less than super, super up and high, um, and I've never experienced that in other areas of my professional life. You know my jobs and my old jobs. I loved and I felt very engaged, but I definitely didn't go to them. Being like this is my dream, you know. It's just a different energy, different energy.
Speaker 2:I never walked into a courtroom thinking this is my dream, this is it. I'm having my moment. I'm having a sunset boulevard moment like I never walked into court like that. I normally walked into court like, oh my god, like when, when can I go home? Like how, how long have I got? Like I do not want to be doing a confiscation hearing at two o'clock in the afternoon on a Friday like it was that energy, whereas yeah, it's a different energy.
Speaker 2:Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. Alex, can I ask you something about rejection? I always think it's important to talk about rejection. Yeah, you know, when you wrote your, how many novels did you have sitting in the drawer before the housekeeper?
Speaker 1:yeah. So I mean I obviously had loads that I'd written through my teens and then in that like very early 20s bit after I'd had my writing hiatus. But I would say from the time I did the Curtis Brown course, which is when I would say I got serious but I wanted to get published, I had three books full books in drawers. So two of those went out on submission to agents and it was the classic story of um. First book got a couple of full requests but from a genre and positioning perspective it wasn't quite right. It sort of fell between two stools and it didn't really go any further. Um, the next book had a few more full requests and that felt really encouraging but the story framework and sort of my plotting ability just wasn't there yeah and the third book.
Speaker 1:I wrote it and I decided not to send out a submission because I just wasn't sure whether it would fly and I and and, to be honest, I'd also had the idea for the housekeepers. At that point I just thought, oh, this is the one, I think, this is the one I can, I could make, I could get it over the line. But beyond that, I also had, you know, lots of books abandoned at that classic 30,000 word mark in that period as well. So I had three full books and then I would say, as many part written and abandoned books probably twice as many as that. But I've got a lot of. I've got a lot of them, not memory sticks but, yeah, filled with abandoned novels but what do you tell yourself?
Speaker 2:to keep going because there's so many people who were just like well, you know, the first one hasn't worked out, the second one hasn't worked out, this one, you know, I'm stuck at faith and it's always that magic. I say that magic 20 to 30,000 word mark.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's normally the bit where people come unstuck and you could have just easily just said you know what Happy days, it's been a pleasure, let me go and just live my life somewhere else. But what makes you keep on going?
Speaker 1:I think for me it was sort of a dumb persistence. I really really wanted it, I really wanted it, I really wanted it. And I also felt as though this is an apprenticeship and this is a career that you need to put in the hours. And you know, a lot of people don't get picked up on their first book. Some people do, but a lot of people don't. So don't feel discouraged. And I actually think, do you know? I hadn't thought about this until you asked the question.
Speaker 1:I went to a short story um event at Gower Street, waterstones 10 years ago and there were a couple of people sitting in the row in front of me and then a friend of theirs who had just got I think just got agented and they were commenting on the fact that it was his third book. And I remember thinking at the time oh god, it was my third book and I still haven't got agented. I'm not sure I'm gonna bother. And then by, if it was my third book and I still haven't got agents in, I'm not sure I'm going to bother. And then by the time it was my fourth book, plus all the ones that had been abandoned.
Speaker 1:I think maybe that had stayed in my mind yeah, that it doesn't. There's no rule about when it will happen. It will happen when you have a good idea and you've executed it as well as you can and you've reached a sort of threshold of skill ability. That means an agent will request the form they might offer representation, and so I just always just felt as though if I just keep going and just keep trying, um, it will happen, and so I probably would still be going now even if it hadn't um.
Speaker 2:But yeah, just persistence and delusion, I suppose you know, I think delusion is a nice, comfortable place to be in, I think, I think, we need that because I think you do need it in order to keep on going, because otherwise, if you were very firmly stuck in reality, you just think, well, this is not going to happen yeah, that's true yeah, do you ever look back at your old stuff?
Speaker 2:because I looked back, oh my god, because I said I probably, I think I'd probably written before the jigsaw man got published. I think I'd written. I definitely had two full manuscripts one I self-published, another one which is in the drawer, the very first one and I'm laughing because this is the one I look back on and I thought I had. No, obviously I had no business sending this out to nobody. It was. It's all like there's a story in it somewhere, but it's all over the place that's so.
Speaker 1:I mean, I relate to that so much. So I did go back and look at my first manuscript and I was like why did I send this out? Just what you said? I was like what am I thinking? Yeah, no, but I can just what you said. I can see glimmers of the hope and the potential in there, but no, it was not strong enough. So I have looked back at that manuscript and then the other ones no, I don't want to look at them ever again. Really, I'm like an onward, onward person. I'm just like no, I wrote them, they're in the drawer. If there's ever any idea in there, that will come up again in another future book, happy days. But I'm not reworking them, I'm not redoing them. They're over. And I think that's the other side of the glass.
Speaker 2:half full approach to this kind of the delusion is that you also like you can't go backwards If you've committed yourself to this mad course of action of trying to to play in the publishing game, then you kind of have to just be like a shark always forwards, never backwards but I have to say I have got one manuscript, because I was it was one I was working on before I ended up um winning the competition and doing the course, and then, you know, having this crime career, yeah, and I did look back at it over Christmas and I was thinking, oh, there is something in there, but it's completely opposite to what I do, yeah yeah, yeah so my plan is.
Speaker 2:I have a plan like in the summer, if I have some free time, I'm going to work it over and then I'm going to give it to Ollie and he's going to say what on earth is this?
Speaker 1:Because it to Ollie and he's gonna say what on earth is this? Because it's so completely different.
Speaker 1:I think that's really good, so actually, so I correct myself or add an, add a caveat, which is I would do the same thing as you with my with that first manuscript, because when I looked it over there was stuff in there that I was like, oh, I could see a completely different way of doing this now with the knowledge I've gained, and it would be quite a palate cleanser because, similarly to you, it's something quite different from from what I'm doing now. So I would definitely, I would definitely play with that book, um, and the other ones. I think maybe it's just fear that I don't want to go back and look at my messy writing.
Speaker 2:So maybe actually if.
Speaker 1:I did go back. I'd find I'd find something to work with.
Speaker 2:I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm like I read it and I thought, no, this is you know, I was working on it before everything happened. So I'm like, yeah, I can, I know what needs to be done with it. But I did read it and I was thinking, nadia, you've got like three points of views in one chapter, like it just switches. And you know what my editor always says what are they thinking?
Speaker 1:no, you don't know what anyone's thinking, they're just talking at each other oh my god, I'm so glad to hear you say that it wasn't just me if I showed you my first set of editing notes.
Speaker 2:It's great, nadine. What is Henley thinking? What is Henley thinking?
Speaker 1:I'm like I don't know oh, that really makes me laugh. Yeah, we, it's all these technical skills you learn along the way, yeah, oh well, that's I. I like that you're looking back at your material. You've inspired me. Okay, I'm gonna open those ignored email folders and see what's in there.
Speaker 2:Just take a look, you might, you might find a gem. I mean, yeah, I mean Ollie might look and go like Nadine. No, just no. But I'm like I would like. I think I'd like to just give it a try and just see please do do tell me.
Speaker 2:Tell me next summer, then I will, if we get to September and it's all and I've written it and he hasn't like, emailed me back and just said let's have a chat about your career, then I will let you know. So, alex, you know what I didn't know? I was getting a copy. So when it landed, I'm holding up the queen of fives right, so letterboxd goes. No, he didn't go, it's my postman. He's very nice postman. We have lots of chats. He's like you got a book.
Speaker 1:He always announces that I've got you must get loads of books, that's like quite a regular discussion point.
Speaker 2:Yeah so it's like, oh, so he goes. It's another book, nadine. I'm like it is and I was like, what is this? I didn't know I was getting it and I was like, oh my god. I was like it's so pretty. What did you think when you saw the cover?
Speaker 1:I was over the moon. I don't know why I'm holding it to you like you haven't seen it. I'm really happy to say I wish I had my copy next to me. I was over the moon. I mean, I love covers. I'm obsessed, yeah, and I was really happy with this one. So Headline, I think, did a phenomenal job. It's Patrick Insola Headline who designed this with the design team there, and it was just blue and gold and delicious, um, and what I love about it is it's just got a strong sense of mystery and story on the cover as well and quite an illustrative effect. So I think it's quite unique. I love it. Yeah, I love it. Love the cover. Well done, headline they did.
Speaker 2:They did a very good job, because even when I'm looking at now I'm like oh my god, I didn't even realize properly. Like all the background there's like horse and carriage and in the houses in the background it's like it's just like how much did you get concepts before? I remember my first email with like here are your book cover concepts. I was like oh my god, and some one of them I was like oh no, but most of them I was like yes yeah, you get that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did get a few concepts and for this book, actually, I think the core concept what the cover was going to look like was there really from the get-go. There was some some finessing and some details were added, especially on the illustrative parts, and sort of clues and elements from the story were woven in in quite a cunning way, but the main thing was just sort of the mix of colours, and I hadn't realised before being published how important the colour of a book is and how many different formats need to be considered, but also how many people have a very strong opinion about a book that's green or a book that's purple or a book that's blue, um, and so, yeah, we saw a whole range of colorways, um, and then ended up landing on on this one and I'm really happy with it. I think it's really sharp and bright and bold. So, yeah, love it it is.
Speaker 2:It's one of it's one of these book covers one of these books where, if I'm, if I'm going to borrow it to someone, there is a demand. I'll be saying to you you will return it, like you're not keeping it at your house. Yeah, read it and bring it back quite right, it's mine.
Speaker 1:Like you cannot. You cannot keep it, it's mine.
Speaker 2:You cannot keep it. Is there anything? What did surprise you? I'm talking just about the whole publishing process with your own book. Especially with the first one, the Housekeepers. Was there one thing that surprised you, because some people would say it was the amount of edits that I had to do, All the fact I didn't know what copy editing was.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was really interested to learn how the retail environment works and how, um you know, from a print publishing perspective, so much depends on that buy-in, that order from the retailers and how you kind of can't predict which retailers are going to pick you up, and actually the decisions made on that can come quite last minute before publication.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And also, you know, stuff can be happening behind the scenes that you just have no idea about. So, with the housekeepers, we were selected for Waterstones Thriller of the Month, which was like the most phenomenal news, and I knew what massive news that was.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And honestly, I had no idea that Waterstones had sort of noticed us. And honestly, I had no idea that Waterstones had sort of noticed us. I mean, of course they've been supportive and the hardback have been in stores. But you know, you don't know with a hardback how much people are seeing it or how big it reaches. And when that news came because you can't, you know you can't pitch for that slot, it's just, it's an editorially led decision by Waterstones Just came as a complete surprise, the most wonderful surprise. It was a massive, massive, um, joyful moment, but it was also a complete shock and that really surprised me. But I think maybe I had heard before I was published that if a publisher wants to make a book a success, they can make it a success yeah and with the right marketing around it, they can make a book a yeah, and with the right marketing around it they can make a book a bestseller.
Speaker 1:And actually I think it's a much more subtle picture than that and I think the retail environment is is nuanced and complex and actually there's a lot of different factors. A lot of factors have to come together for um, for a book to for a book to fly. So I think that was really interesting to me and a bit of a surprise that that there was just a whole other level to stuff that I hadn't hadn't necessarily realized before I was in this business. But but how could you? You know?
Speaker 2:I would never have known from the outside no, I will never stop being surprised at how much of an impact the supermarkets have and how and how it's, how hard it is to get into a supermarket because, um a friend of mine, they emailed me and they know, yeah, they text me. They went. I was looking for your book in Sainsbury's. I was like it's not in Sainsbury's. But why is it not in Sainsbury's? I'm like it's in Tesco's.
Speaker 2:You can go to Tesco and get it but it's not in Sainsbury's and but they've, and even I just assume, I just assume they just went into the supermarkets like yeah, yeah, yeah, just yeah but you have. You know there's a whole book buying team in a supermarket. Then you have to pitch to the supermarkets and they can say whether they like the covers or the title or they have so much say in it, and I'll never stop being surprised but also when I was in my teens and first reading sort of commercial adult fiction, there was more stuff in the supermarkets.
Speaker 1:Like I remember going to the massive Tesco's in Cardiff and there were probably two full aisles for books. Yeah, there was. There was so much space and actually a big majority of what was out in paperback that was commercial would be there. So actually I think you can imagine how people wouldn't realise, how would you know that so much space has contracted. You also want to say to a friend where you're like I'm not in Sainsbury's but I am in Tesco Did you kind of want to say something? And that's amazing, by the way you should. Did you kind of want to say something? And that's amazing, by the way you should?
Speaker 2:be very proud of me. I feel like I want to. I do. I want to do a little speech and say thank you so much, but yes, it wasn't easy to get into tesco, but I mean tesco. So I'm very, very pleased about that.
Speaker 1:It's massive. But you know, you wouldn't know, I suppose but yeah yeah, I'm eternally surprised as well.
Speaker 1:It's a it's really interesting. It's such an interesting business and I think I think, seeing how you know, the landscape is changing hugely and you know, genres are coming to the fore in a new way, um, I mean, I've loved, I've loved seeing the rise of um, fantasy and romanticity and just going into the fantasy section of waterstones and it's alive. There are so many readers in there and they're so young and you just feel that vibrancy and joy of reading again and book buying and I just love that. But you know, who would have predicted two, three years ago that fantasy would be having the boom that it's having now? I mean, probably some very good forecasters in publishing probably would have predicted this, would have seen the signs come in. But for the rest of us who are readers, I just it's lovely. I love seeing these, these unexpected genre shifts that can happen no, I wasn't expecting romance and dragons to be a mix.
Speaker 2:But there you go and we love it. We're here for it, I love it. What would you like if you, if you could, um, have two genres spliced together like two of your favorite genres? What would they be just like?
Speaker 1:I mean as random as you like, oh, as random as I like. Well, I mean, first of all, the serious answer to the question is I do love historical fantasy and I do love that, that blending, but the randomness, I don't know. Maybe some kind of like sci-fi space station meets, but the thing is that what, what is? You can glue any genres together because you can do anything, and so I don't know, I'm up for anything.
Speaker 2:Basically, that's my get out of jail free card answer um, yeah, glue away, that's what I said away right before I go into your last um, I can't speak before I go on to your last. I can't speak before I go on to your last set of questions. Would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about the Queen of Fives which has got the best cover With great pleasure.
Speaker 1:Yes, so the Queen of Fives is a Victorian con set in the summer of 1898. And it tells the story of Quinn LeBlanc, who is London's premier con woman. It tells the story of Quinn LeBlanc, who is London's premier con woman, also known as the legendary Queen of Fives, famed for her ability to lift a man's fortune with five moves in five days. But times are tight and Quinn is about to embark on her most audacious scheme yet to infiltrate the wealthiest and most aristocratic family in Berkeley Square. But as she begins to infiltrate the wealthiest and most aristocratic family in Barclay Square, but as she begins to infiltrate their orbit, she starts to realise that she may not be the only person playing a game of grand perception. So think big houses, bad families, lots of darkly gothic, glittery Victorian glow.
Speaker 2:Perfect. Would you ever write anything contemporary? Do you think or do you know where your setting is?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would. I think, um, I'm very setting led settings want to get first, and I've said sort of jokingly to my editor that I think the core story I will always want to write is that big house, bad family, and actually that framework gives you lots of um capacity to play. So you can, you know, you can find that in any sort of era. Um, so yeah, I I think if the setting was opulent and rich and strange and full of an eccentric cast of people, then I would be here for it, whether it was 1900s or anything else are you working on anything now?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm on big three at the moment and I'm sort of in that stage where I'm just having to hold my nerve, um, and make sure that I can I can pull it off, um, and yeah, I'm loving it. It's another. It's another opulent, setting um, with a mystery at the heart of it, but that's probably all I can say for now, in case I lose my nerve but that's the thing holding your nerve.
Speaker 2:But I it's always that moment for me when I've written the book because I say I would have done my first draft for myself, then it's kind of like a second draft. So really, my editor and my agent gets my third draft and I send it off and it's just the panic of, oh my god, are God, are they going to like it? Are they going to like it or are they going to say no, this is not the one.
Speaker 1:And it really is.
Speaker 2:It is a game of holding your nerves for however long it takes for someone one or both to come back to you, it's horrible. I can go into court and cross-examine anyone and do it. It doesn't bother me all day long. This moment of waiting for the feedback and the moment when, even with the last book four, and I got my editor's email and I was like, oh my God, she's emailed, and then all I saw was I love it. I was like I don't care what the editor's notes say, I don't care what I have to do in terms of editing.
Speaker 1:You said you love it. That's all I'm. Good job done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh god, oh well done. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:I love that right, it is nerve-wracking. Oh, it's not a nice feeling at all. No, no, right. So, alex, are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:definitely a hybrid. Yeah, I've listened to so many of your episodes and I agree with everybody who says that they uh like to get out and about and chat to everybody and desperately, desperately need lots of time alone to recharge their social battery. That's 100% me.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, hybrid there are not many people I've interviewed who have said they're an extrovert.
Speaker 1:It's like very, it's, very few yeah I, yeah I, and they're out there so you know, come on, show yourselves, don't pretend. If you're really an extrovert, we'll put up with it but I was talking to.
Speaker 2:I can't remember who I was talking to now. I was talking to someone yesterday for the podcast and they were saying that it's changed for them as they've got older so when they were in their 20s, they were an extrovert and then, when they found their 30s, they were more into hybrid. But then, after they got into their 40s, it's more becoming more introvert oh, that's me, that's 100%. Yeah, I'm gonna be a hermit at 60 living all on your own with your little stories? Hopefully not actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, no, no not on your own with your little stories hopefully not actually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, no, no not on your own yeah okay, so what challenge or experience I feel like I need to say it could be a good experience or challenge in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:uh well, I suppose this kind of goes back to the conversation we were having earlier about childhood reading. I suppose your childhood is what shaped you the most and as you move through life you realise more and more how much that is true. So I suppose the glib answer is that I didn't. I mean, on a more challenging note, I mean I didn't love being in my teens at all. On a more challenging note, I mean I didn't love being in my teens at all.
Speaker 1:I definitely felt very, very out of place in myself and not not comfortable in my own skin, and actually I would say, you know, you spend a lot of time shedding that and one of the joys actually of being um in the writing game now is being around people who you feel share an affinity with that creative side of yourself. Not that I didn't ever feel supported and, you know, have wonderful friends, um, and lots of support from family, but it's it's it. It can be, you know, isolating to be a teenager. So I think I feel I feel I feel more in my own skin now than I ever have before and that's a that's a good feeling did you ever have that you know I'm moving to the big city moment when you left cardiff.
Speaker 2:I don't know why I've decided to ask you that when it just popped into my head well, the weird thing was.
Speaker 1:So I I was born in east alice and then moved to cambridge and cambridge was a really nice, quite safe childhood place to be. And then the big city move came when I was 14, um, and moved from Cambridge to Cardiff and that felt like a big shift. So another side of the country, playing rugby, learning Welsh, it was, it was, it was a lot, it was. My first day was in Cardiff, high was. It was a full-on day, um, and that was quite um discombobulating for me.
Speaker 1:I really struggled actually that first sort of year, year and a half, because I was just a fish out of water and I hadn't really I hadn't, I hadn't really got the social skills, aged 14, to learn how to thrive in a new environment and make new friends and build those bridges, because I had just gone through primary school into secondary school with the same friends, the same community and just it was such an easy ride, but actually it was quite character building in hindsight, um, and you know it, it it taught me a lot about the fact that you do have to try and sort of um put yourself out there sometimes to to to build a community. So I suppose that, yeah, big go to the big city thing Cardiff.
Speaker 2:For me was that yeah big go to the big city thing, cardiff. For me was that, yeah, but I said, you know, move, having that such a big move at 14 like smack in the middle of your teenage years. Because, if you said, you know, when you move from primary school you can actually go from nursery and all the way through to 16 and have the same group of people around you, you know, have the same friends and then to have that little network and then to be ripped away from it a full team and you're not a 14 year olds alike.
Speaker 1:They're not. Yeah, it wasn't. I wasn't present at all, it was not. It was not a pretty sight, um, but I was. You know, yeah, I was quite. I was quite a confident child and had, you know, great friends and support around me. But yeah, it was a bit. It was a big change. But you know, I caveat all of this with. But it was good, it was. It was good life lessons, um, I ended up in my career working for um, the duke of edinburgh's award, which obviously spends a lot of time 14 year olds to, to volunteer, to make new friends, to go on an expedition, to build new skills. The idea of doing anything like the DOV when I was 14, I mean, my school didn't offer it. Oh, I did. Did you do it? Are you an alumni?
Speaker 2:No, Let me just let me explain myself right. I started to do the Bronze Award. We did the first walk and I can't remember where we went. All I know is that I got home at city o'clock in the morning I was freezing. My mom had to put me in a really hot bath because I was so cold. I said I'm never, ever doing that again. And my dad's the one who's got the gold duke of edinburgh award I went to see the duke of edinburgh award.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, he was not impressed that his child couldn't even complete the first stage.
Speaker 1:My father, did it Really. Yeah, I'm so impressed with your bronze. The idea of me doing anything that sounded like PE, anything more like PE, at 14, especially when they were already making me do rugby, which was just like ridiculous. No, I would have not touched it with a barge pole. But in hindsight and by the way, bronze award is a big achievement, so I say congratulations to you. Um, yeah, I I I wish I'd sort of actually done something like that, because I think it would have probably given me that sense of well, you don't know what you're made of until you try it.
Speaker 2:But oh, I know what I'm made of.
Speaker 1:I'm not made for the outside, not made for this hiking malarkey. Oh my god. But give your dad there going to the palace. Is that I love all that?
Speaker 2:oh, we'll have to talk about this in detail oh god, yeah, he'll tell you all about it, does he?
Speaker 1:still have his record book and his badge and everything.
Speaker 2:I've got his badge. I know I don't know where his record book is, but I've got his badge. But you know he's up for telling you all about camping in Scotland and all over the place and he's like can't believe you just stopped at bronze because I did not like it. I'm yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1:No, I'm not a camping, glamping maybe you know you're, you know yourself. That's what you need in life.
Speaker 2:I do, I know, I know, I know myself. So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:Do your Duke of Edinburgh's Award? No, I think 25 is a really interesting age, isn't it? I think so Because you're kind of. I mean, your brain has basically only just formed, apparently. I heard that your brain is still like super malleable and plastic right to your 25. So you could be anything up until you're 25, but then, when you're 25, bang, you're sorted, you're set. So what advice would I give myself? I don't know. Go to therapy, um, learn to be a better listener, try and not be a weirdo, and, you know, eat a balanced diet. I just all those, all those things I probably you know, because it's transitions phase, isn't it where you're? You know you're starting to try and build your career. You're starting to, yeah, try. And you know you're adulting properly for the first time. So, but I probably I don't know how much I would have listened to myself so you know, just try and be a good person, basically.
Speaker 2:I think you're more likely to listen to yourself at 25 than you would at 18. I just think you're definitely not listening to anybody at 18 so 25, there's a little bit of, a little bit of room yeah, you're actually, that's very astute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right, there's more. So, yes, I would just say continue being a very sensible person, alex, on the go, but I would also say just enjoy being able to eat what you want because I miss those days now, because now I'm like oh, I ate that, and now I can see where it went yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, yeah, I take back all my advice for being sensible. No, don't be sensible. Be free, enjoy. Enjoy your lustrous complexion and the beauty of it all. Yeah, I've got one. You have no advice. I have no advice. Yeah, we've got no advice. Just live life.
Speaker 2:Just live life well, I've got one extra question. Now I want to know what is your advice for writers and it's not a professional. This is how you write advice, but what would be your advice for a writer?
Speaker 1:I'll say the first thing that came into my head actually, um, when I think about the writing I love and the authors I love, the people I will auto buy, I think the thing that connects all of them is they've just got really strong, rich imaginations, and their worlds, their story worlds, are places that I love entering time and time and time again, and I know I'm just going to enter a really rich story landscape. So my advice for anyone who's just trying to write is just focus on your imagination and what the spark is that brings you to books, and try and mine that scene, um, and just find what you love and what lights you up, because I think that is where the best writing and storytelling lies, and if you can tap into that, then you will enjoy it and hopefully someone else will as well. But I do think that is the fundamental thing, that that sets apart writers who are just writing with that kind of verve and joy.
Speaker 2:I think that is very astute. So finally, alex, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:um. Well, I'm on Alex Hay Books on Instagram and X and um Blue Sky um, and my website is alexaybookscom.
Speaker 2:Come and see me we'll come and see you. Did you set up your um your website early doors? Was it the last thing you?
Speaker 1:did. No, I did do it quite early doors, um, because I really felt like I needed to get my email newsletter up and running. But now I feel like I've got to remember to actually send my email newsletter. So, uh, yeah, mission for this year is to be very prompt on that schedule with your newsletter.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, finally, that just leaves me to say, alex, hey, thank you so much for being part of the conversation. Oh, I've loved it. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadinemappersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
