The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Elissa Soave: The Art of Female Rebellion
We all have dreams we've postponed and creative passions set aside while we handle life's practicalities. Award winning author Elissa Soave knows this struggle intimately. Having started law school at just 16, she spent decades in a profession that never quite felt right before finally pursuing her writing dreams in her mid-40s.
"Anybody can say 'not yet, not yet' but at some point you have to say no, I'm actually now going to prioritise what I like to do with my time," Elisa shares in our candid conversation about her journey from law to literature. This powerful sentiment forms the emotional core of our discussion about her new novel "Graffiti Girls" which follows four middle-aged women who decide to break the law by spray-painting feminist messages across their small Scottish town.
Elissa also reflects on representation, deliberately centering working-class characters from small towns because "they are not represented enough in literature." For anyone who's ever thought "someday I'll follow my passion," this episode serves as both inspiration and gentle challenge. Your time is finite. What brings you joy?
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Anybody can say well, you know, not yet, not yet I'm not going to start, I'm not going to do it yet, I'm not going to do more writing yet. I've got to keep doing all these other things first. But I just think at some point you have to say no, I'm actually now. I'm going to prioritise what I like to do with my time and that's what I do now. I do prioritise, I prioritise my writing and I prioritise my children. I probably should have said that the other day.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you had a good week. I had a very, very good week. Can I tell you why? Can I tell you why? The reason why I had an excellent week is because it was announced that my book, the Kill List, is on the long list for the Fexton's oh Peculiar Crime Novel of the Year award and I'm ecstatic. I'm overjoyed I can't think of any other adjectives to describe my joy but I am very, very happy.
Speaker 2:It's just really cool to know that your book has been well received and it's been recognised and it's validation, which is kind of weird. Validation is a weird thing because you shouldn't need an award not to say I don't want to win because I'd like to, but you shouldn't need an award to validate you as a writer. I mean the fact that I've got books out there and you can buy them wherever you choose to buy them, that readers like them and they respond to the books and the characters and the plot and they email me and DM me and they talk about it amongst themselves and they create amazing art and social media posts about the book and they discuss it in their book clubs and they create YouTube videos about it and have hour-long discussions about your books. I mean that is validation enough and actually that is really really cool when you do get tagged in and it's just three women on YouTube spending an hour discussing the Jigsaw man and, oh my God, what are the names? Let me think I'm going to give them a shout out. They're called Over Our Dead Bodies and they did this brilliant hour long discussion, their book club discussion about jigsaw man. So all of that is really cool.
Speaker 2:But it is also really cool to be nominated. So I'm very, very pleased and, as I said, it's my podcast so I can self-promote all be nominated. So I'm very, very pleased and, as I said, it's my podcast so I can self-promote all I like. I'm on the long list, but it would be amazing to be on the short list. And if you read the cure list and you enjoyed the cure list and if you haven't done so already, please vote, please vote for me. Um, I'm going to put the link in the show notes, so just head to the show notes, click on the link. You can watch a little video from me, where I'm being interviewed about how it feels to be nominated and be on the long list, and then you can vote for my book. So thank you very much in advance. Now let's get on with the show.
Speaker 2:This week, I'm in conversation with author Elisa Suave, and Elisa Suave is the author of the book Ginger and Me, and her new book, the Graffiti Girls, is out now, and in our conversation, elisa and I talk about why you must prioritise your creative passions, the surprising inspiration behind the Graffiti Girls, and why you should give every book a chance. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Elisa Suave, welcome to the Conversation.
Speaker 1:Oh, thanks so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 2:I'm very happy to have you here, right, elisa? I never normally ask the where do you get your inspiration question from, because sometimes I feel, as writers, we're like well, I don't know it, just it's random, it came to me in the the shower. But what I wanted to ask you is why did you want to tell the story of the graffiti girls? I'm not asking if any of the characters are you maybe they are but like, why did you want to tell the story?
Speaker 1:well, the graffiti girls, you know. And it's funny that question, where's your inspiration from? People think you know, people think that must be such an easy question to ask writers. It's not, but really they're like oh my God, please don't ask me that, you might have seen my face falling there.
Speaker 1:But actually, with Graffiti Girls, I think I can pinpoint exactly where I got the idea, which is quite unusual, isn't it? Yeah, so I mean the themes of it, you know, the way women are treated, particularly as they get older, the inequalities in society. These are themes I've been thinking of, you know, for a long, long time. But as to how to sort of address those themes in a novel, I remember that I was sitting outside the Tanikside Miners Welfare Club which appears in the book, actually and I was waiting for one of my children to come out, and where my car was parked, there was a wall at the side and there's a main road goes by the wall, and I remember thinking to myself oh, that would be a great place for graffiti, because all the cars that are coming by would be driving right by it. You'd get so much traffic. And so then I started to think well, what, what? You know, what would I write? If I was going to write graffiti, and of course it would be things like um, women are better than men, end of which is the kind of thing then the women write in the book. And then I thought, well, actually I could do that, but but via fiction. And so I went home that that's exact same night and I wrote the scene which appears in the book now at the very start, where the women, um, have their first sort of graffiti mission and they write on the walls of the minor minors welfare club things like um, you know that women are not treated well and this sort of thing.
Speaker 1:And then, but after I'd written that, I sort of I thought, well, what, what kind of women I mean, what would have to happen to you that you'd be prepared to break the law and, you know, disrupt your life in this way by by scrawling graffiti on the wall?
Speaker 1:And I thought, well, what I could do is go back to the backstory of each woman and explain why they had hit this point at their 40s or in their 40s, where they were prepared to say this is not right, we are not happy with this anymore. And so that, of course, gave me my structure for the novel, which is in four parts, where, you know, each woman has their backstory and this is why I'm doing it, and this is why I'm doing it, and this is why I'm doing it. So in the end, it turned out to be quite an easy book to write. In fact, at some points when I was writing them, the dialogue between the women, my fingers look like I don't know what, you know all the things I really wanted to say, and so, yeah, so the inspiration for Graffiti Girls really came quite easily and and was actually written quite easily, as well, you know, I was thinking it's just the lawyer in me when you're talking about graffiti and I was thinking that's the legal side of it.
Speaker 1:It's criminal damage of committing an offence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I beg your pardon.
Speaker 1:I was going to say so you'd have to feel quite strongly about what you wanted to say to be prepared to do that. And also, I think initially it was just going to be one woman. But then I thought no, because if it was me right, I would need my wee posse of friends around me to. You know, build up some Dutch courage and make me. You know you can do it, elisa, come on. So I made the women like friends in school, having grown up all the way together. So they're very close and we each rely on each other not to tell anybody that you know they're the ones who did it well, other than the, you know the criminal damage.
Speaker 2:You're breaking the law side of me. The other side of me is always when I'm driving and if I'm approaching, like a bridge in the railway bridge, and you'll see the graffiti on the railway bridge and I'm always thinking how, all over the flyover on the motorway, I'm like, how did you even get up there? And it's a different level of courage to one thing to you know, scroll graffiti on the on the wall. You're displaying your art, but to climb up onto I don't even. I don't know. I'm saying climb up. I have no idea how they get up there well, my, my graffiti girls don't really do that.
Speaker 1:They have. They have one excursion where, um, they bring ladders and they do go quite high in the wall and they use like massive big spray cans to make a real big mural. But generally speaking, they're looking at local buildings and they're more, um, they're more intent getting the message out to other women than they are in the sort of the, the artwork or the. You know the quality of the art of their graffiti.
Speaker 2:That's not really, you know, part of their, their mission not to be artists not really no, do you think right, you know, like in, in the era that we're in and I say like I say, I'm saying post, and me too do you think that this book would have like a different message post me too in comparison to if you'd written it maybe, I don't know 15 years earlier?
Speaker 1:Honestly, when I think back to myself growing up, so you know, let's say in the 80s and 90s, I don't think terribly much has changed for women and I think that's really sad to say. But it's the same sort of issues that I was concerned about. I was also a law student. As a young law student, um, that I think women are concerned about today. In fact, if anything, um the epidemic of male violence against women, I would say, has just got worse, you know. So I think it's the same. It's the same issues. Um, probably me now, as an older woman, I'm seeing it from their point of view. You know, I'm probably thinking more about how older women are viewed in society, as opposed to the challenges that are faced by younger women, and I think they are slightly different. But in general, I think, depressingly, things have not got better for women and I don't really think the tenor of the messages would change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like in some sense it feels like it's going backwards a bit.
Speaker 1:I tell you one thing I do notice, which I think is I don't remember this as a younger woman, but maybe I just was not aware of, I don't know but I do feel as though, um there's a lot more um attempts being made to sort of split women up, um so, for example, you see, you quite often see um why women with children are not, are not being nice enough to women without children, um younger women not not being um particularly supportive of older women, and all this sort of thing, whereas I just feel, don't, don't do that, stick up for your fellow women, stick together, that's, that's, that is the answer, because you know, together we're a powerful force. Well of course they want to.
Speaker 1:Of course they want to fractionalize us.
Speaker 2:That's what better way to take away the power you know, with your, with your second this is your second book, the graffiti girls because I wrote a sub stack article last, I think it was last week. I wrote a sub stack article last week, um, and I was talking about that moment when I first met my agent and he asked me you know, we talked. We talked about the first book because he's got the manuscript. Then he asked me if I had what my second book was about and I hadn't even been thinking about the second books and I just plucked this idea that was kind of floating around in my head. But how did you see your career? Did you see your career as a writer?
Speaker 1:I mean, that's what I'm asking um, I just think I was so thrilled and delighted to have one book. You know, I couldn't quite believe it, um, but also I think, um, I don't know if you felt this way, but after, after you've had one book, published it, it sort of validates any ambition that you've, that you've had. It sort of makes you feel like, well, maybe I can, maybe I am quite good. Then, you know, maybe I can write. And I think it's sort of, um, I mean, I certainly didn't have any. Um, I wasn't nervous about writing more books. After Ginger and Me, which was my first novel, if anything, I was like, oh, here I go. Then, you know, I felt as though that you know, the gate had been opened and I and I was now had permission to write whatever I wanted but then you this is what I was going to ask you actually about.
Speaker 2:You know, talking about validation as a writer, because you won the prima donna prize in 2019 and then you did bloody Scotland pitch perfect as well. So wasn't, wasn't those two events? Didn't that feel like validation? Or did you feel like, okay, it's just like a little. It's a little like tap on the back, like well done.
Speaker 1:Prima donna in particularly felt like validation. I think that was a sort of quite the turning point for me. You know I'm not lacking in any self-confidence I never have been, so I'm not going to pretend, you know that that I have. But certainly in terms of writing, I did think, as a, as an older working class Scottish woman, um, I thought I might meet um barriers there and I think, prima donna, um, really, what it did for me was say no, no, you know, if the work is good enough, you know there's room for it. So I think I try not to focus on myself or my background. I try to focus on this is the writing. I'm just going to make the writing as good as I can make it, tell the stories I want to tell that I think you know people will be interested in. And you know, just keep going, just keep writing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny because I was talking about this as well last week that because I think in America now, because we're recording this in, we're in February, so in America it's Black History Month and ours in the UK is October. And I was saying like last week was the first time, I think in six years, where I'd sat on a panel and it was all women of colour all talking about crime fiction and it was just us talking about our books. It wasn't there because it was just a it's a Black History Month and now let's have a little, let's have a special, and I think it's so. I don't think, and I think it's so, I don't think I'm saying people, I don't think some people realize how important it is just to have just for writers just to be on the panel just for themselves about their work, without it being some form of I don't know initiative uh-huh, and also in terms of what you write.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know that a lot of working class writers say that, um, you're expected to write stories about sort of quite miserable working class families because this is trauma. I call it trauma porn. But actually I mean, that is not my experience of working class life. Working class life to me is about community and about people working together and there's loads of laughter and loads of different life experiences. So that's what I'm what I'm writing about. I'm not interested in writing about, um you know, misery did you?
Speaker 2:did you ever feel, were you ever worried about that, though? Like being pigeonholed as the working class writer.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I never thought about class one way or the other for years, um. So, like I say, I studied law, um, and when I got to university to study law, I, I, it was at a time where, um, you got full grants, full maintenance grants if you needed them, yeah, yeah, but not alone, right? People can't believe this now. Not alone a full maintenance grant, right? So that is why, or how, someone like me, from a working class family, no way could my parents have afforded tuition or to keep me around. They just couldn't have, right? So I was able to go to university to study law for those reasons, right? Just, it was a time where the policies allowed it.
Speaker 1:So I, having had then, access to, you know, the most middle class of professions, for years, I don't even, I never didn't even think about, well, I'm working class, but I'm going to have access to this. You know, it wasn't until, um, I saw, I started to see myself described as a writer, as a working class writer am I, and and I do do it myself now because I think, well, well, it's me, I'm the working class, but it's not really something that I think about on a on a daily basis, and I don't, I certainly don't think about um. I want to represent all working. You know, I just don't that. That doesn't cross my mind when I'm writing.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think you're not the only one, because I always say the same thing about being, even though I find it difficult to even say the word, and they say, oh you know you're, you're the children of immigrants. And I'm like what? I didn't feel like we were immigrants because my mum and dad are just my mum and dad and our family's just our family, and, yes, we are Grenadian, but I just, I just didn't feel, I wasn't made to feel like other in my home until later on it's like oh, you know, you're the children of immigrant. You're all sudden, I'm black, british, grenadian, I, I'm like am I? I did not know. And people start putting these tags onto you and even like being working class. I never thought of being working class, but I suppose if you fill out the box, I tick all the boxes. But, as you said, I've been working a very middle class profession, so it's weird, it's a very weird thing.
Speaker 1:There was a brilliant Asian writer. I can't remember her name. I've got her book. Actually pretty teenager, pretty teenager right now.
Speaker 1:She was speaking at prima donna and I just thought this was fascinating. So, before she got her agent, um, so she'd, she'd, she'd sent off her book, which is brilliant. Um and um sent the synopsis, a wee bit about herself, and the agent came back to her and said oh well, we've already taken on one asian writer. Um, so no, and she said no. She said so, she said to the audience, she said what is it like? One in, one out? Is this how it works? And I thought, wow, I cannot believe in this day and age. This is. This is what people are up against. I know, look at your face.
Speaker 2:I'm not supposed to have dead sound. Does empty sound? She was so inspiring.
Speaker 1:She really was just about um, about writing generally, about just sticking to your guns and not not feeling that you have to. You know, change yourself or what you write in order to be successful. And you know what even is successful when it comes to writing. Isn't it writing the best stories that you can write?
Speaker 2:and I remember I, when I sat down with my agent who I have now we had that conversation Like we were talking about yeah, you're just, you know, I'm selling your book. It wasn't oh, I've got a black author on my author list, or, you know, let me have one. It was just about it's a good book and we're going to sell the book. And that was the conversation. And, to be honest, that's the only conversation that I want to be having. It's like it's a good and we're gonna sell it and let's see what happens. But yeah, I'm so stunned. I'm so stunned, like if you said that in I don't know, 1962, maybe, yeah, this was would have been maybe 2020, I think the festival 2020 or 2021.
Speaker 1:It was really inspiring. In fact, the Prima Donna Festival generally is very inspiring. If you get a chance to go, you should go. Honestly, it is really. It really makes you feel that anybody can do anything as long you know if you've got the story and you're willing to work at long you know if you've got the story and you're willing to work at it, you know anybody can become the writer that they want to be.
Speaker 2:Because then, you know, there will be so many people, irrespective of what race they are, ethnicity, gender, anything, or what class they are, who will you know? They have their dreams of doing whatever it is being creative, and then they hear someone say that to them. Oh well, you know, they have their dreams of what doing, whatever it is being creative, and then they hear someone say that to them oh well, you know, we've already got one of this or one of that, and they'll just feel like there's no room for them and they'll just that.
Speaker 1:That just stifles any ambition that they have absolutely, and I feel it's even more than that, I mean across the industry generally. It's. It's when you see um it's when you see the same names over and over again on, you know, for um residencies or whatever it may be. I think that has a uh, the effect of stifling um a diversity. But be anybody who might want I mean you may even be thinking about it if you don't, if you don't see um a variety of people, if you don't see different people from different backgrounds, um different areas with different ambitions, you don't have any feel that well, you, you can also fit in. Then you feel as though, well, I'm not like that, so that's obviously not for me and I think that it doesn't even just apply to the arts.
Speaker 2:I think it just applies to anything like any profession. I think if I hadn't seen black lawyers myself, then maybe I probably would have been like, maybe, like, maybe not, but that that wasn't okay. Also, I probably watched too much American law show actually, yeah, well, that's so glamorous.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, it was so glamorous.
Speaker 2:That's why I wanted the glamour. Then I found myself in the magistrate's court and there's no glamour whatsoever. Elisa, can I ask you this question? And I, I kept reading it and I kept thinking is this a? Is this a mistake? Did you go? You didn't go to law school at 16, did you?
Speaker 1:uh, yeah, yeah, I did, I know crazy at 16. Yeah, how well, I mean really stupid, right. So I was you first generation in my family to go to university and I had the exam results that I needed and I was offered a place. Now I think if I'd been my child now, right, knowing what I do now, having experienced the university system, I would say to my child no, no wait, 16 is far too young. You know, you'd be at least 18. But of course I didn't. My parents were just so delighted and thrilled with this you know, achievement, inverted commas that I went and it just was such a mistake because, a I never enjoyed studying law, it was the wrong subject for me and B I just was just too young. I just, I just, you know, between 16 and 18, I think, is a big, big difference in maturity levels.
Speaker 2:I always say no, I always say yeah, I always say for myself at 16 at the time you think you know everything and you think you're an adult and no one can tell you any different. And then, but you said the jump from 16 to 18. There's so much growth in that short space of time. They, even looking at my 18 year old self, looking at my 16 year old self, would be like what, what are you on about? Just behave yourself.
Speaker 1:But then again, even looking at 21 to 18, you're like you knew nothing and you think you think you're like you knew nothing and you think you're so mature, don't you? Well, I'll tell you a funny story and you can edit it out if it's not appropriate.
Speaker 1:But when I went to law school so I was 16, right Now I had been brought up Catholic very sort of you know not worldly wise in any way, and I remember we were being taught about, or just it was really just a you know, a side note, bestiality, right, the crime of bestiality. I did not know what that was, I could not work out what is the animal, where is the animal? I don't know what that is. So I mean, that is just one example of why, you know, I just was too young to be there you couldn't even go and watch a movie, you couldn't watch the exercise and you know you get a matric card.
Speaker 1:So I had um, I had stars all around my matric card to indicate that I wasn't able, I wasn't old enough to have alcohol it was so and you know, look, I didn't.
Speaker 2:I didn't do law at uni, I did American studies in history. So I didn't do yes, I didn't do my. I did the conversion course. I would have been 21, 20, yeah, 21, 22 when I did the conversion. Yeah and yeah. Looking back it now, I'm glad I didn't study at uni, spend three years studying law. I'm glad I just did that one year. It's an intensive course, but saying that it's so intensive and to be studying that at 16 but, you know, in hindsight, there were benefits.
Speaker 1:So, like I say I, so I came from a working class background. You know, for somebody who's not born about it, I've mentioned it quite a lot, haven't I? But anyway. So when I went to uni, a lot of the people who were there, um, they knew a lot more about the legal profession and how things worked than I did, and the reason why, of course, is because all they came from, they came from families of lawyers. So their dad and in the 80s, you know, it was their dads rather than their mums their dads were lawyers and they knew people, how they could get a traineeship. But this all went over my head. I didn't, you know, I just was so naive, I didn't, just didn't really get that, you know. So in a way, that was good.
Speaker 2:But in a way though I don't think you could have had that experience at 16, or had it at 18, or had it at 21, 22. Because even when I've been teaching in a law school and I don't know how it worked out this way I was teaching a class on the Friday. It was a Friday afternoon class I had, and everyone in that group didn't. You would probably describe them as coming from like a working class background, which was unusual for the law. I say unusual for the law school. Actually, the law school had the whole spectrum, you know, very, very upper class this is the next step before you become a solicitor or a barrister but that group was, they were literally like, they were just it was just full of working class um students, all living low, yeah, all living locally.
Speaker 2:But I remember there was this one guy. He came up the end of the class and he said to me you know his first week there. He wanted to leave because it's his first time. You know, he grew up in east London, he went to university in East London, he lives in East London and then it's his first time going to a law school like this and being surrounded by, I say, upper and middle class people and he felt intimidated by that and he says, only when he saw me teaching it was like, oh, there's someone like like me and sounds like me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you need that. Yeah, you, you so need representation. But I'm saying but whether you were 16 or 21, he still wouldn't. He still didn't have that, that knowledge of okay, how does this law thing actually work? How does it work as a career? You know, what do I need to do? Who do I need to speak to? Because he didn't have those people and I didn't have it either.
Speaker 1:You didn't have those people around honestly, naively, thought it's all about the exam results. So I knew that I was going to. I knew that I was going to do well in the exams. Right, I was good at exams. It was very studious, like I say, it was very quiet, it was very studious, never went out. So my whole life was all about, you know, studying. So the exams were going to be fine for me. I was naive enough to think whoever does well in the exams, they are the ones who are going to go on and get the best traineeship, and you know, and then do well in the profession. Not realizing it's all about networking and who you know, and and in Scotland as well, a lot of it, um, oh, actually, you know, I won't even say that. I was going to say it's a wee bit to do with religion as well, depending on which city you you are interested in working in, um, but I won't focus too much on that.
Speaker 2:So, lisa, we've been talking about the law. We could talk about the law all day, but when did you? When did you know? Actually, yeah, when did you know that you could write and when did you realize that you wanted to write?
Speaker 1:do you know, for somebody who came so late to writing. So I came, I started writing my mid-40s, right, but I can remember being at school and loving writing and and really reading, loving books, and always thinking I'm going to be a writer. I'm going to be a writer, but you know the thing that I didn't do. I didn't do any writing, I just did not do any writing. So in the back of my mind, I was always going to be a writer. But you know how things get in the way. You know you have your career, then you your family, and then, but still at the back of my mind, still even in my 40s, I was thinking I'm gonna write eventually. And then I thought to myself well, you know, lisa, if you don't actually put your money where your mouth is and do some writing, you know that just will never happen. And I really thought I cannot give up this dream. I don't want to give up this dream.
Speaker 1:So I joined a writer's group, which, honestly, was the best thing I could have done. Um, because suddenly you're surrounded by people who you know, are just as interested in writing and and characters and plot, and as you are, and in my case, you know, having no, um, academic background in writing, I just learned so much from other people. You know, this business like show don't tell and all, all and the story arc and all this business, I didn't know anything about that, genuinely did not have a clue. So for me, I was just, you know, taking it all in what all these other writers in this group were were telling me. You know, taking all the feedback, taking all the critiques, um, and really the best thing that I could have done and I knew, because I was getting good reactions for the short stories that I was bringing to the, the club so I felt as though, well, you know that there is something there I can, there's something to work with.
Speaker 2:Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. It's such an important step because I remember going to um, a writing group, and it was just I think it was just like on a Tuesday. It was just on a Tuesday after Tuesday evening and it was on top of a cafe and I don't know what made me go. I thought, no, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go and I went and that first moment and you were supposed to just write on your own for the first like hour, so you know, sat on your and I'm not I'm not working in a cafe sort of person that was a bit.
Speaker 2:No, that was yeah, it's just yeah, I can't. So that was a bit of like, okay, I'll do this, I'll write, I'll write for an hour. And then after that, everyone got together and they spoke about their work and they shared their work and critique their work. And that was the first time I had people reading my stuff and I was like, oh my god, oh my god yeah because you don't know.
Speaker 2:You know you're writing stuff and you know inwardly you might think, okay, it feels like a good idea and there might be a character who, just like just sings to you. There's someone you feel like attached to and you can hear their voice. But I didn't know whether or not I could actually like write a full novel and it's the same thing. I didn't know that. You know you're not supposed to have like three points of views watching one chapter what's POV, oh yeah there are three.
Speaker 2:You know I'm switching three times, but you need that. However, you get it. That first exposure, that first, that first time someone critiquing your work. You need it.
Speaker 1:See, that's a great attitude to get in with and that's the attitude I went in with. You know that, um, I will. I will take on board whatever you know, whatever people are telling me. But I did notice that actually it tends to be more men, um, who come in and they think wait to see my masterpiece, wait to see what I've got here. And you know they're so unwilling to take on board any feedback. And I think, why are you even here? You know you have to go, I think with the mindset of I'm here to learn.
Speaker 2:You know, I haven't.
Speaker 1:And you know that also was news to me. So I used to think well, you know, you write a piece and either the piece or the story, you know, either it works or it doesn't. Yeah, I did not appreciate that by the time you're reading a story, it's gone through about, you know, 50 billion drafts and so you can start off with a story. It's not that great. If you keep working at it and working at it and taking on board feedback and changing it to suit, you know, um, it will get better, and I think that's you know. I always say to new writers you know, don't, don't, don't expect to win and it's perfect. You will get feedback and you have to be prepared to listen to it and accept it. You're, you know you're not, you're not brilliant from the word go. I know.
Speaker 1:I know, but I like to think.
Speaker 2:I am, which is why I got annoyed with myself last night because I'm planning, I'm planning, I'm planning a book and I'm doing the outline for my agent. And it's just the outline. It's not the full book. I think the outline's hard to do it is hard.
Speaker 2:It is hard to do, which I mean I can accept it being hard to do, but then I think why I was getting annoyed with myself. I was like it's not perfect, like it's not right, and I had to save myself. Nadine, it's just the outline, it just needs to know what the story is, you don't need to know what happens in chapter 86, because you don't even know what happens in chapter 12. Yeah, but you, just you know, I think so go on.
Speaker 1:I was going to say, you know, when I first started writing, that was one of the things that stopped me a lot, you know. So I've tried to write a novel and if I couldn't get the first chapter to be perfection as far as you know, as I was concerned, perfection as I wanted, it would just give up. And yeah, you have to be prepared to write a really crappy first draft and then have something to work with, don't you? You know it's not going to come out completely perfect first time.
Speaker 2:No, you're right, Because imagine, I was telling myself last week when I was getting annoyed with myself, I was like, well, I'm just going to go on LinkedIn, I'm going to start looking for a job because I don't know what I'm playing at. Like, the other four books I've written have just, it's all just been a fluke because I was getting so annoyed with myself until I had a word with myself and my friend had a word with me and I was like, yeah, it's just and how do you do it then?
Speaker 1:do you write it yourself and then get somebody to have a look at it and tell you that, or do you just do it yourself and think you're?
Speaker 2:happy with it. I just do it myself. I literally I, I start writing it, get annoyed with myself, have a moan, throw a little bit of a tantrum, and then I have to have a word with myself. Or there's one of my friends, I will message and she'll be like it doesn't need to be, you just want it to be perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect. I'm like, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1:And then I just then, I just carry on once I've got a wee glance at your, your four books that are already published on this.
Speaker 2:Yes, come on look at them, guys. Like you've done this before. What surprised you most, elisa, about the publishing industry once you were in it? What was the most surprising, apart from the 500 drafts that you have to do with your book?
Speaker 1:do you know? I'm going to tell you I was that's what I was going to say just how many things, how many times you have to work and work, and work. In fact, my first editor and she's left now, but I really loved her and Katie Seaman and I sent her and she still laughs about this so I I sent her what I thought was going to be the book right, and I got this message back to say something along the lines of um, I'm so looking forward to working with you.
Speaker 1:You know there's so much work to do and I was in the background thinking I've already written the book I don't know what else I could possibly have to do, and that was about draft or you know one of a bit, I'd say about 15 maybe, um, and and it really did change throughout the course of the editing process. Um, so I think that really was my biggest surprise, um, and also, I do see a lot of like sort of negative stuff about the publishing process, maybe more the industry than the process. I see a lot of negative stuff online but honestly and that's not really been my experience, so I've been quite pleasantly surprised by how positive I found everything. I haven't had, you know, negative experience the way other people seem to have done online yeah, I think that's the difference, isn't it?
Speaker 2:now you've said it, there's a difference between the industry and the process, because I think if you get caught up in what's going on in the industry and you do get caught up in the various how many whatsapp groups and facebook groups that you might be in, you can just let's be. Sometimes I've just closed the group because I'm like I can't take it anymore because it's so negative about the industry, which is completely different to the publishing process. I'm not saying they're not warranted, because sometimes you're like I agree with you 100%, but for your own peace of mind, sometimes you have to remove yourself away from that otherwise you won't write your book uh-huh, definitely.
Speaker 1:I mean, you can spend all day on Twitter, you know, scrolling through, going down all sorts of rabbit holes, um, and sometimes you know if you're, if you're writing time's limited, it's just, it's just a waste of your writing time, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was going to ask you but I don't know if you've already answered it because you know you are a lawyer and you've been in law since 16 how important is it to have this other side to you. So to have this creative side because I always say I was calling the baby lawyers. I always say to the baby lawyers at the end of the course that I teach them is like, make sure you've got something else other than this, like they need to have another part of you other than law, because you don't want it to be all consuming and then you're burnt out, so make sure you have something else. So how important is it to have this creative side?
Speaker 1:well, it's funny. As I was saying earlier on, before we started recording, I was quite ill last year and, um, although of course there's lots of downsides to that, um, one of the positive things about it is that it does make you reassess what is important to you and when. When there's a possibility, um, that your time is going to be limited, um, I mean, of course, we've all, we're all got a finite amount of time here, right? But we, we manage to sort of ignore that most of the time. That's how we manage to survive. But if you're sort of brought face to face with it, it does make you think, well, how, how do I want to spend my precious time? And for me, I realized, actually I want to spend more time writing, because that is what makes me happy.
Speaker 1:And you know, anybody can say, well, you know, not, not yet, not yet, I'm not going to start, I'm not going to do it yet, I'm not going to do more writing yet, I've got to keep doing all these other things first. But I just think at some point you have to say, no, I'm actually now I'm going to prioritize what I like to do with my time, and that's what I do now. I do prioritize. I prioritize my writing and I prioritize my, my children.
Speaker 1:I probably should have said that the other way around. Actually, I prioritize my children and who I want to spend my time with, and I think, um, law, law is a profession you know, or or any other profession that you do because you have to do to make money and that, and we all have to do that. That's, that's fine. But don't always put off and put off and put off, because you know you might come to the conclusion one day that or the realization one day that actually I don't have the time now to do what I really, really wanted to do, and I think that is very sad yeah, there's I don't know who said it.
Speaker 2:There's some quote and I think sometimes it can sound a bit oh, it's a bit glib, but it is. It's very true. It says you know, the best time to start was yesterday, but the second best time to start is now, and it's true. I think, yeah, and I also think sometimes that a lot of people they feel like they need to have everything in place first before they can move on and start taking on their whether it's their creative project or, I know, their new, their new business. But I need to have everything set in place and sometimes you just have to just start and then just see how it goes. I mean, that's just my view on it.
Speaker 1:It's not even really about um, oh, I can't leave this career till I have another career. It's about, um, being creative. Is it's just good for you? It's good for your mental well-being. It's good for you to be thinking about, um, you know, creatively, about the way you see the world and your place within the world. Um, that all sounds very poncy, I suppose. Really, what I mean is you should, you should think about how you spend your time, because it is finite, yeah sorry to bring everybody down no, no, but I do think it's true.
Speaker 2:I think that's probably why you know what I do say to the baby lawyers have something other than this, you know. Be, have something else to focus on, be creative, have fun, enjoy life, even if it just means just like doing puzzles. Do your puzzles, what just? Whatever brings you joy. Yeah, whatever brings you joy. I think that's the most important thing. Whatever brings you joy is your family creative um my, my children you mean, or your children and your parents, siblings, if you had them. No, not really I.
Speaker 1:I mean I grew up in quite a bookish household because my mum really loved reading, so she was very much um. We had a mobile library that came around and she always had loads of books and she always really encouraged us to read and and she always as well, encouraged me in particular well and my sisters, to be whatever we wanted to be. There was never any limits and I think, honestly, the reason I do feel confident in my abilities and I'm not bothered if I'm the only working class person in a middle class state I'm not. I'm not bothered if I'm the only working class person in a middle class. You know, I'm not bothered is because my mum always told me I was, I was the best, everything. I mean. I can see in retrospect, of course I wasn't, but I think it's a great thing to do for your children to say, oh, but you're great, you know better than to say, um, oh, you know well, you can't, that's not really our kind of thing, you can't really do that. I mean she would never have said that to me.
Speaker 1:In fact, I can always remember I applied for a job and I was probably totally underqualified for it, but in one respect I definitely was. But my mum said no, no, apply for it. You had to speak fluent German. No, I don't speak any German. But my mum said to me but you speak Italian, so you can learn to speak German. And I thought bloody right, so I can. So it won't surprise you to know that I did not get an interview for said job, where I had to be fluent in German. I think I put something in the application form along the lines of willing to learn.
Speaker 2:I just love it that well you speak Italian. So, yeah, you'll be fine, it's the same thing, it. Yeah, you'll be fine, it's the same thing. It's the same thing, same thing.
Speaker 1:You'll be absolutely fine but that's what I do for my children. I say to my children you can be anything you want, it doesn't matter what they tell me that they're. You know they're interested and I'll just try and encourage it because, um, for one thing it's probably a fleeting thing, um, but another thing, why not? I always take the view if not me, then who? Who? If not me, who's who's better than me? And of course, there will be loads of people who are better than me, but that doesn't matter, it doesn't shouldn't stop me trying no, you always, always say you have to tell yourself a story.
Speaker 2:And if you're to tell yourself the story I am, I'm the best thing that walked out of this house today then you tell yourself that story and you run with that story, elisa what was what was it like the moment that you not, not this, but not graffiti girls. We'll talk about that. But Ginger and me, what was it like that moment when you had your book in your hand for the first time?
Speaker 1:Oh, phenomenal, phenomenal, Absolutely loved it. Just could not believe it. Couldn't believe that my name was on the cover of a book, completely. Even now, when I go into Waterstones and I see the book there, I'm just so thrilled and delighted. Don't take it for granted. You know, I never expected it and I'm just so delighted that it's happened. Never expected it and I'm just so delighted that it's happened. And you know, I can see when you think about, when you see online. You know people are so their dream is to have a book published. Yes, I can totally see why. That's how I felt and you know, to have it come true. It's a it's a phenomenal thing and I'm, you know it's not like you know, it's not like you know yourself, it's not your name's on the cover, but it's not just you who's, you know, made this book.
Speaker 1:There's so many people who have contributed to getting this book, you know, into a bookshop. So I'm always really grateful for everybody who works on the book and, you know, helps me and supports me along the way, and I do try and pay it back. I, you know, helps me and supports me along the way and I do try and pay it back. I do try and pay it back to other writers because I think it is important. Somebody said the other day and I thought this was a great way of looking at it you know how some people think oh, I'm not going to support this writer because I want their book to do better than mine. But actually if somebody, if a reader, finds a really great book, they're probably going to try and want to repeat that experience and look for another really really great book. So it's no loss to a writer to support another writer. In fact it's healthy for the book selling industry.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and all you need to do as well is look at people in a bookshop. Very rarely unless someone's you know, I'm just going to buy a book for one person because this is their present very rarely are people walking into the bookshop just one and walking out with one book. So there's room. Yeah, you know. I mean, yeah, you could buy my book, you could buy your book. I've walked, I've gone into the bookshop saying, no, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna browse, and I've come out with six books yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm like, for god's sake, this is not what I intended. But I think sometimes and it is annoying, it's frustrating you're like people like they don't want to pay it forward because they feel like, oh, you're going to be taking my spot. No one's taking your spot, they're really not. I know it's rubbish, absolute rubbish. It's so rubbish, oh god. I had a question. It's gonna. Oh, that's it. It popped into my head and it popped back out again. Um, you know we're talking about now, talking about paying it forward. What is your advice, like your number one advice that you'd give to new writers? That may not necessarily be about how to write, but just in general.
Speaker 1:I think the really important thing is to finish what you're writing. So, unfortunately, what that means and a lot of sort of new writers perhaps don't realise this that means the very unglamorous business of getting to your desk, sitting there and sometimes working on one paragraph, one sentence, even you know after hour after hour, but unfortunately you you cannot even begin to compete to get your place in the publishing industry unless you have a piece of work that you can say here is, here is what, here's what I've done, here's my novel. So I think a lot of people they start novels novels in particular, right, you know, you're writing them for a long time with no, possibly with no outcome at the end of it. So they start novels and they get to difficult parts within the process. You know, maybe in the middle, maybe not quite sure how to end it, and then they just give up.
Speaker 1:And so what happens? Is this great idea that they have and often these are great ideas they'll only ever be a great idea they'll never get to the bookshop because people just are not sitting down to finish them. So I always say to writers who tell me that they've got great ideas write it. Make sure you write it, because otherwise it will only ever be a good idea no, it's true, you just need to, just need to sit down.
Speaker 2:It sounds a bit like not very glamorous, not very fun. It takes away the mystique of it.
Speaker 1:But you, you just needed to sit there in front of your computer screen and and and and a sort of practical piece of advice that somebody gave me I can't remember who, but it was brilliant. Um, if you are struggling with a piece in your novel, you know maybe you know you need to get a character to a certain place by a certain time and you just don't know how you know you're going to do that just put a placeholder in, put a placeholder and move on and keep writing. So then, before you know it, you've got most of your novel and then you can go back and fill in the gaps rather than getting up on it all together this is how, but this is the thing with placeholders.
Speaker 2:Sometimes placeholders become permanent, which is why the character in my book, my character henley, her husband rob, his name. I didn't have a name for her husband. I knew she had a husband, I knew it was a pain in the neck, but I didn't have a name for a pain in the neck. Yeah, but Rob's also the name of my mate, rob, and I think I'd been talking, I think I'd been talking to him at the time, or I was messaging him, um, and I was like, oh, what should I call? I thought I'll just, I'm just gonna call him Rob as a placeholder. Yeah, planning to intending to change his name, but by the time I got to get into the book, he was.
Speaker 2:He was robbed to you yeah, and because I was doing the book as part of the course, when the other um people on my course were reading it, I said I'm going to change his name. It's like, no, you can't, it's Rob, so placeholders can go against you. And then I had to call my friend Rob and I'm so I felt so bad because he's not the best character in the world and Rob, my Rob's really nice, so I had I didn't call him and tell him until a publication that I put the date for publication that I was like, yeah, this character thinking about your character's names then yeah, I do I do.
Speaker 2:It's so important, I do the whole you know, go online and go through the baby names and stuff, oh, I'll google what names were what? Yeah, what names are popular for boys in 1984? And I'll do all that because you just want to.
Speaker 1:You want to get the name right uh-huh, and sometimes I think you have certain associations with certain names. So if you've got a character, um, because I'm not, of course I don't know your friend Rob, but for me the the name Rob does have sort of um associations of being a bit jack the laddish and you know, you know, perhaps not being the best character, so I think you do have names. That must be to do with your experience. You know, when you're growing up, names that you've come across um, but so some names I think you know are definitely for good characters and some are definitely for I don't like you. So I'm using that name, definitely.
Speaker 2:But then there's also. The thing is that you think about the names you use because you don't want them to be a name that is one of your friends or family or someone you was acquainted to, because you don't want them coming back going oh, is that me? They're like no, it wasn't you, it wasn't you, it just fit the character. Really it was so, lisa, before I go on to your last four questions, do you want to tell the listeners of the conversation about the graffiti girls? I got the proof, which I started reading, so I haven't seen the final cover.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh sorry. Yeah, so graffiti girls. So if anybody's read Ginger and Me, it's in the same sort of world, um, which is to say that it is contemporary, small town, working class Scotland. But this time it's set in Hamilton, which is a couple of towns along from Uddingston, which is where Ginger and Me was set.
Speaker 1:So we've got four women. They've been friends since school and they always thought their lives were going to be fantastic, fabulous. But when they hit their 40s they think, well, actually life is not as great as we thought that it was going to be when we were at school. And so they decide that they're going to broadcast what their issues are with the world via a graffiti campaign in their local town, which is Hamilton, and they scrawl feminist slogans all over the walls of local buildings to try and highlight what the issues are. And so the book then is about the fallout from that graffiti campaign and how it affects these women's lives, but also how it affects the lives of other people who read the graffiti. So it's again like Ginger and me. These are quite serious themes, you know inequality and the way older women are treated in society, but it's it's done in a a humorous way. There's a lot of humor in the book to try and lighten.
Speaker 2:You know what, what these themes are did you find yourself resonating with any one of the characters, because I've got them amy, carol, lenore and susan. Did you resonate with one in particular, or did you, or is it just all of them? You felt something. No, I really.
Speaker 1:I would. I want to be Amy, right, because Amy has got a wise track for every occasion. Uh, you know, and great, great comebacks to everything, not like you know, like when you think in the middle of the night and a great comeback, right, that's too late. Amy thinks of it in the moment, right? So I'd love to be Amy, but I'm not like that. So, no, I'm not really like any one of the women in particular. I think a lot of my life experience has gone into each of them, because I think that's just inevitable when you're a writer, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I think no, I think so. Would you always set your books in Scotland, or do you think you'd move out?
Speaker 1:Do you know, I keep reading online about people who've been researching their books in Rome and things and I think, oh god, you know, I need to get out of Unningston. I guess I am interested in writing about working class characters from small towns because I think that they are not represented enough in literature. Um, in fact, not in life generally. Um, particularly women and younger women. You know, in ginger and me, the two younger women, um, that's a demographic you don't see very often in literature. Yeah, um, so I, yeah, I, I mean never, say never, but I can't.
Speaker 2:The next book, certainly after, um, well, the next couple of books, in fact, will be set in Scotland oh, I just keep thinking, if I do another not if I do another, but if I do like maybe a standalone, I'm keep thinking, maybe I'll just, I just want to do it. I want to do a tour, I want to do a research tour, but I want to do it in somewhere nice, not that London is not. I want to get on a plane. That's basically what I'm saying I want to make. I want to do research. That involves me getting on a plane for eight hours and yeah, that's what I'm doing?
Speaker 1:definitely, but I would like to do that sort of research, um, but still make a contemporary novel, because I think historically just far too much work.
Speaker 2:I know I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this, I love history, but, yeah, I commend anyone who does historical novels. I'm like doing this, I love history, but, yeah, I commend anyone who does historical novels. I'm like, well done you, amazing.
Speaker 1:I was talking to a historical novelist quite recently and she was saying that the thing is, you can research for days and days and days and you end up with one line in your novel. I thought well, that's not for me.
Speaker 2:But I think that's the case Even like for me, like writing police procedurals, even though I did criminal law, there are still things I have to research, and it's the same thing. I've spent ages researching. I read a psychiatric report because the second book involved exorcisms. I was reading all these psychiatric reports and medical research papers about people who believed they were possessed, but it's all to do with mental health issues and I didn't. I probably used what maybe half a paragraph, maybe a bit scattered throughout the book, but I spent hours reading it because I go down these rabbit holes.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh my god, it's so interesting and I'm learning things so yeah, but you know that's the sort of thing I mean if you got it wrong. I mean, because you've got it right, readers will not notice it, they'll be part of the story, but if you got it wrong it would be very noticeable, I'm sure exactly, I think.
Speaker 2:I think so. All right. So, lisa, are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:um, you know, I think that changes with your what stage of life you're at. I think when I was younger, I was very introverted. I was just into books and reading and studying. In my 20s and early 30s, I would say, I became more extroverted, but now I think I'm more of an introvert. But I do think, as a writer, you do need to be both, you know, because you need to be out in the world engaging with people in order to observe and and write about it. So I think you need a wee bit of a mix of both.
Speaker 2:I think so many writers are surprised about the, the fact that they have to find their extrovert side when they become a writer. Because you know you spend so much time to sit you just on your own, just you and your words. And then there comes. There comes that point where you have to promote, you have to go outside.
Speaker 1:Honestly, see, when I first won Prima Donna and I had to go on the stage to say what In front of an audience, in front of people, and I was really surprised by how much of how much promotion an author is expected to do. But I always remember one agent not the agent I signed to do, but I always remember one agent, not not not the agent I signed with, but I commented on that to her and she said Elisa, unless you're Hilary Mantel, you have to promote.
Speaker 2:I'm certainly not Hilary Mantel. So okay, it's true though, isn't it? I mean, there's some authors they don't need, and I know some. They don't need to do anything. Their book comes out and then it goes straight. That don't need to do anything. Their book comes out and then it goes straight. They don't need to do anything except breathe.
Speaker 1:Well, look at the last, Sally Rooney. I mean, you know, it's amazingly well, of course, but I haven't seen a single interview with her on Intermezzo.
Speaker 2:I think I don't know if I saw one. I don't know if it was a New York Times one, but then I don't know whether that was more profile or, as opposed to an actual interview, might be more profile about her. Yeah. But yeah, there's some people, you don't. They can just stay in bed. I would love, I would love to do that. Just stay in bed and let your books sell, okay. So what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:I'm going to say motherhood, because becoming a mum, I think, has shaped everything. Every decision, every avenue that I've taken, every aspect of my life really has been shaped by, you know, working it around my, my children, yeah, and I think, in terms of the writing, um, you know, although I sometimes get annoyed that I didn't start writing sooner, on the other hand, I think the kind of things I write about you know, human relationships, our connections, we, you know what we do with our, what we do with our lives. I'm not sure that my, I think I would have had a totally different perspective if I hadn't had, uh, children. So, yeah, I think, being a mother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say it's never too late. It's never too late to start writing.
Speaker 1:No, you're right, you're absolutely right. But and also what I'm saying that's, that's not to say that you can't write brilliant stories as a young person. Of course you can. Everybody, everybody's journey into writing is different.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't mind. I mean, if I'm honest, I wouldn't mind like being a big, massive success at like 25 and retired, but I don't know if I'd be responsible enough, though I think.
Speaker 1:I needed life and um.
Speaker 2:Well, if I was to make it like super rich, I don't know if I'd be responsible enough at 25 I think I've had enough. I've had. I've had more than enough life experience to be if I do ever make it super rich from writing to um to be responsible yeah, no, I at 25.
Speaker 1:I don't know what I would have done with any. Any sort of success would have been hopeless which is what I'm going to ask you.
Speaker 2:Your next question if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:um, well, you know, when I was 25, I thought I was really quite old and certainly in terms of I know, hilarious. Now in in terms of career, I honestly thought at 25 that that that was it. You know, whatever career decisions I made, I just had to stick with then because I was now in my mid-20s, um, and and for me that, having gone to study law at such a young age and realizing it was wrong, I didn't really want to be in that profession and I felt as though I was stuck with it. And I did stick with it for years and years afterwards. So I wish somebody had given me the advice 25 is a baby. You can go and study creative writing, english literature, psychology, I mean any of the things I was interested in. I certainly, at 25, could have still have gone and done that, and but I thought it was too late. I'd made, you know, I'd made my decision. You know, my major career decision, um which is crazy, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's crazy, it's so crazy. But then I was also thinking back when I was 18 and I could remember being in a seminar it must be my first week at uni, so I'm in this seminar and you know, and it's different ages and then someone pointed out oh, these are the mature students, and the mature students probably only about 26, 27 I mean, but you probably thought was ancient at the time yeah, at the time like, oh, these are the mature students, the 30 year olds, and looking back now you're like what are you banging on about?
Speaker 2:yeah it's crazy, it's so crazy. So, oh, I'll ask you one more question before we do the last, last one what has your publishing or your writing journey taught you about yourself?
Speaker 1:um, I think it's really taught me that the things that I am interested in and the things that can, the issues that concern me um are actually quite universal. So, um, although you think your problems are are unique to you, in fact you find that um lots of people, because, you, get, you, get you get lots of feedback from readers along the lines of well, thanks for thanks for talking about that, thanks for thanks for sharing that um.
Speaker 1:So I think it's sort of um cemented what I knew anyway, that um, you know, being a part of a community is a is a good thing for, for, for human, human beings, it's what helps us to thrive yeah, I was just thinking, um, like one of the best messages, messages that I like to receive, are the ones where they say you know, I haven't read for ages.
Speaker 2:I just haven't for whatever reason, and I've picked up your book and it's got me to read it again.
Speaker 1:You're like oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I just think that the fact that anybody is taking you know what, how? Don't know how long it takes to read a novel, what? But 10 hours maybe? Um, so anybody is taking that time out of their life to read things that you have written.
Speaker 2:It's a compliment isn't it, it is. Are you someone who finishes the book even if you don't like it? No, or you are your.
Speaker 1:DNF. In fact, I've gone on a run where I've not finished quite a few, but my last couple of books have been fantastic. But I don't, um, you know I do talk a lot about books on twitter x, but I I would never say, oh, I hated this book, it was awful. I mean, I just wouldn't because I I know that, um, I know what it takes to to write a book and also I know that not every book is for every person. So because I don't like it doesn't mean that it's not a good book.
Speaker 1:So if you were to look on my Twitter feed, you would have the impression that I've loved every single book that I've read. In fact, there are lots that I haven't, you know, just haven't finished and haven't mentioned.
Speaker 2:How far would you go, though? Before you were like you know what no, I'm done, I can't, I can't take it any further.
Speaker 1:I think I know quite early whether I'm gonna like a book or not. But having said that, sometimes I do say, oh, I'm not liking this one. And then I think, oh, I'll just give it another night. And then by the next night I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 2:I can't wait to get back to bed to read my book so probably there's a lesson there.
Speaker 1:You know, we just keep going yeah, I like those moments.
Speaker 2:The frustrating moments are one where you get, you're so invested and also you don't get the payoff. At the end you're like what? What was this? Why have I spent all this time?
Speaker 1:as well. Sometimes I pick up a book. So I started reading a book recently which I hadn't realized was historical fiction. I just hadn't realized and I, as soon as I realized that it was, I thought I'm not going to like this, because I'm not really a great reader of historical fiction. Yeah, um, oh, my god, I could not put that book down. Things we did in the dark by AJ Close absolutely phenomenal, really phenomenal. I thought that's that is, you know. I'm so glad that I didn't say historical, not for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I would have missed.
Speaker 1:I would have missed a brilliant book you have to give things a chance, so finally where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:only on x, because I'm so garbage at social media and you know when everybody was leaving twitter and x, although I don't know if that really happened. But, um, to go to blue sky, I I like the idea of it, but I just can't face starting from nothing again, so I've just stuck with with x. That's me, you're there and I quite like it. Actually, I know it's got lots of I know it's got lots of downsides, but for readers and writers, I think it's a great platform, you know, to find out about books that you may not have heard of or you haven't, you know. So I still think it's got value.
Speaker 2:I tell you what I miss because I'm not on Twitter anymore, or X, but I'm on Blue Sky, but I do miss on, especially on a Thursday, and you'd start to see the happy publication day tweets coming out and then you become what you're aware of, not really. It hasn't really taken off. You need more people. Someone, someone needs to do it, yeah, but you, you would just you'd learn about what books were coming out more, because of that and learn the different types of books and discover new authors.
Speaker 2:So it's just, it's like anything, it's a slow thing, but I do miss down like, oh, it's publication day, let's see what books out get back on then. No god, I can't. Sorry, elisa, I'm just gonna have to just send you messages like this, send you emails as a check up on you. Well, elisa Fava, that just leaves me just to say thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure, but thank you so much for being part of the conversation oh, thanks, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:It's been like chatting down the pub with my pal, but without the gin.
