The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Detective Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
Finalist -Independent Podcast Awards 2024
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Tariq Ashkanani: Who's Afraid of the Midnight King?
What happens after you get that coveted book deal?
Award-winning author Tariq Ashkanani pulls back the curtain on the publishing industry with refreshing honesty, revealing the unexpected challenges and disappointments that come after signing with an agent. From the marketing struggles that leave authors shouting into the void to the strange disconnect between publicity budgets and actual book sales, Tariq and Nadine explore the parts of the writer's journey rarely discussed in public.
But this conversation goes deeper than industry talk. Tariq shares the creative spark behind his deliciously dark new thriller The Midnight King, revealing how he crafts villains with psychological depth and finds those perfect "pockets of darkness" within everyday normality.
For readers of The Midnight King, crime fiction enthusiasts, or anyone curious about the realities of creative careers, this conversation offers both practical wisdom, laughs and the encouragement to trust your creative instincts.
'This is a work of fiction. This is not a confession.' Lucas Cole is a bestselling writer. He is also a father, a widower, and a beloved celebrity in his small town. He is an unassuming man - tall, thin and quietly friendly. Lucas Cole is also a serial killer.
Nathan Cole has known the truth about his father since he was ten years old. Too terrified to go to the police, he ran away from home as soon as he was able, carrying the guilt of leaving his sister behind. But when Lucas is found dead in a dingy motel room, Nathan returns to his childhood home for the first time in seventeen years. It's there he finds The Midnight King, his father's final unpublished manuscript, a fictionalised account of his hideous crimes, hidden in a box of trinkets taken from his victims. Trinkets that include a ribbon belonging to a missing eight-year-old girl who disappeared only days before his father's death.
Now, Nathan must deal with the consequences of keeping his father's secret. But it may not be as simple as finding a lost child. For The Midnigh
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for me. I don't think anything should be off limits, because it's all. It's also all in the writing of it. Right, like you can do, you can write about anything, but it depends how you write it hello and welcome to a bonus episode of the conversation with nadine matheson.
Speaker 2:I know you normally get an episode every tuesday, but if you carry on listening after we say our goodbyes and our thank yous at the end of the conversation, you listen to the outro you will know that I always say to you that there will be a new episode every Tuesday and sometimes there'll be a bonus episode, and here it is your bonus episode of the conversation. Now the conversation season three doesn't end until July, but I've been having loads of conversations with amazing guests over the past few months and I need to make sure that you hear all of these conversations. So what I plan to do is, every month until the end of season three, I will give you a bonus episode, and today's bonus episode features my conversation with author Tariq Ashkanani. Now, tariq is an award-winning author.
Speaker 2:In 2022, his novel Welcome to Cooper won the Bloody Scotland debut prize and it was also shortlisted for the CWA New Blood Dagger and a Capital Crime Fingerprint Award. And Tariq's new novel, the Midnight King, is out today in hardback, and if you follow my social media so if you'd seen my Blue Sky account and my Instagram around, I think November last year I was reading the Midnight King because I was lucky enough to get a proof copy, and it is so deliciously dark. It's one of my favourite thrillers of this year and I think everyone should get it. So that's the Midnight King, which is out today, and in our conversation, tariq and I talk about the dark side of storytelling, the surprising reality of being a published author and what it really means to follow your passions. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Tariq Ashkanani, welcome to the Conversation. Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:You're welcome. The reason why I'm very joyful is because Tariq and I were just chatting away about everything and realised maybe we should start officially recording this.
Speaker 1:Too many video games to get through. That's the problem.
Speaker 2:I know we're talking about video games. It's all storytelling, though isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's all storytelling about video game. It's all storytelling, though, isn't it? It's all I would love. Would you like to write a video game? Is that something you'd?
Speaker 2:like, quite like to get involved in. I would. I've spoken. Who have I spoken to that? I think Greg Buchanan. He writes um video game. He wrote, he wrote um. Oh my god, I've forgotten his book now. Was it consumed? I think it was consumed.
Speaker 1:I know, I definitely know his name. Yeah, I think it was he written is that I can't remember?
Speaker 2:no, no, no, he wrote the book consumed. But um tt writes. He does video games as well. He has, if you. I know we've already gone off on a tangent, but if you come on his um, like on his blue sky and I think on his sub stack as well, he's got all this writing for video games information yes, all right so, seeing as you'd love to write a game, I can't even speak now, as you'd like to write a game.
Speaker 2:When did you know, tarik, that you could tell a story? Not just write, but tell a story?
Speaker 1:oh, that's a good question, that's a good way of looking at it. Um, so, probably probably high school, I think. I reckon probably high school english, I think they kind of creative writing part that was always my favourite part of English. Yeah, I always loved English class and stuff in high school but the creative writing parts and that part of the exam stuff I always loved the most and I think it was probably that point in like S4, s5, which what is that down south? Like how old have you been?
Speaker 2:how old are you? That's where we'll work it out, okay, so yeah 16, probably year 11 for us.
Speaker 1:Year 11, how many years?
Speaker 2:do you guys have themselves um from secondary school?
Speaker 1:it's five so what's the last year?
Speaker 2:yet last see, when I started school it was first year, second year, third year, up to fifth year, and then, when I went to the I think, the third year, it changed to no, I went to the fourth year. It then changed so it became year. 10 was the fourth year so they run that from like primary school yeah, now it runs all the way from primary school all the way up, yeah all right gotcha okay needless maybe it's.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's similar, maybe that's more straightforward. Anyway, I was like 15, 16. I think that was a point yeah I'd always loved writing.
Speaker 1:I always loved I. I would say I had the saddest Boy Scouts badge ever, which was a writing badge, and everyone else my troupe or whatever was doing like you know knots and like first aid and like stitching up wounds or whatever I don't know what they were doing and I was like in the corner writing Star Trek fan fiction in a notebook and I gave you a badge for that. I got a badge for it. Yeah, that's pretty good. So I think I always loved writing. But it was probably it's probably kind of 15, 16 when I kind of started to actually write like kind of original, like stuff yeah, it wasn't like rip off of other TV shows I was watching did your teacher tell you you could write?
Speaker 2:because I just suddenly had this memory of Mrs Taylor. Who did your teacher told you you could write? Because I just suddenly had this memory of mrs taylor, who was my english teacher, telling my mum um, yeah, it was parents evening, yeah, she can write, like you can hear the characters, like really yeah yeah, I was similar.
Speaker 1:I was. It was definitely a teacher saying, saying something like you know you've got this is like you're good at this, this is something you're good at. You've got like a natural talent or whatever for this kind of stuff and that kind of boys you'all. Doesn't you get that kind of like a little bit of like positive feedback yeah, I'm good at this and I enjoy it, and that's what that's.
Speaker 1:One of my kind of regrets, looking back, I think, is I wish I'd just followed that path. Like I was growing up, I was kind of like I've got to get a job, that's like I've got to do a degree that has a job at the end of it. I was kind of very vocational minded so I was like I'll do. I did science first of all, took my scientist, then didn't like the idea of becoming a scientist, so I threw that in the bin and then I was like I'll do law instead. So did law, became a lawyer, and lawyer is fine, but it's not my passion anyway, and writing has always been the passion all the way through and from high school. I kind of wish I just followed creative writing a little bit more and see where it taken me it's so funny, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I always think as well. It's a lot to do with, like, how you grew up in your background and your family. Um, you know, if you got certain, I say that because of my family being from Grenada, and it's very odd when you know you have to call yourself what is it? A first generation British person? I think that's technically what I am, is that?
Speaker 1:the correct phrase.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I only learned that last week, but I think that's so formal it's like it's so formal, but like it's just. But it goes back to this thing is that it's that you're not told that writing could be a career?
Speaker 1:yes, and you have to have something stable, and something stable is going to be yeah, doctor, lawyer, dentist yeah it felt like there was like four or five jobs in high school, right, like there was like you'd sit down to be like what am I going to do at uni? And it was like oh, there's, here's the five jobs you can do that yeah doctor, lawyer, dentist, you know, vet, and it was all.
Speaker 1:I felt like there was no, there was no other like route to anything. I felt it was really constrictive, I remember. I remember trying to look at stuff being like, but what else, what else is there? And I'm struggling, they're not thinking. And as years later you look back and think, god, there's like tons of jobs that you don't even know exist at that point. And it's so difficult, I think, to kind of pick what you want to do when you're that age.
Speaker 2:It's, it's, it's quite difficult and you, I think you kind of feel like you're committed to it as well. Once you've made that decision to be like a lawyer, well, that's it.
Speaker 1:You can't deviate from that at all yeah, I remember reading like horror stories or what I saw is horror stories that folk had like done a year of uni and then be like I don't want to do this course and changed. And it was like the biggest thing, like the biggest thing in the world, like to like change to do something else, and it was like. So I was like god, I can't change, I'm locked in now. And it did. It did feel like a big, massive kind of commitment that you had to do and I don't know why it felt like that.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure why I had that thought in my head, to be honest yeah, it's probably now like looking back now because I always say I'm very open, so I messed up my A-levels so I get bored easily and I got bored. So once I get bored it's like my attention, I don't give it my full attention. So I was supposed to study law and American studies at uni, messed up my A-levels so I ended up. I had to go through clearing and I went to uni to study. Initially it was supposed to be science and technology in society and philosophy and I yeah, I know it was just like I just need to get into uni, of like I've met, and it was the same uni I wanted to go to middlesex, but it was just like I just need to get in and I got in on that course, tarik.
Speaker 2:I did one lecture and I was like no, I'm not, I'm not.
Speaker 1:What was the lecture? What was the lecture it?
Speaker 2:was the first lecture was about the industrial this thing is stuck in my head was about the industrial revolution. I thought I'm not doing this for three years.
Speaker 1:There's no way so I went, you like like that day one. You're like it's not for me yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is not for me, even though I knew I could do a conversion course to do law anyway. So I've said I'm not doing this for three years. And history was always my first love and I wanted to do American studies. So I basically just went and lied to the course leader for American studies and I said to him, I said to him, I said to him yeah, I don't know what's happened, I'm not supposed to be on this course.
Speaker 1:Did people do the wrong course? How did it work? Yeah, no, because he said to me You're joking?
Speaker 2:No, I'm not, because he then said to me. He then said to me yeah, this isn't the first time it's happened.
Speaker 1:And he filled out, he signed my form, and then no, and I transferred on to american studies in history and I was, that's amazing, that I that I can't believe that what that's like the oldest trick in the book.
Speaker 2:So when did you law? Then I did law after I did my degree.
Speaker 1:So okay, so you did, yes, I did, yeah, I did the convergent course and I did the law.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'm always of the mindset just to start what's the worst that could happen? They say no 100. I genuinely.
Speaker 1:I totally agree with. Life is short. You got one chance of stuff, go for it like who cares, like it's people the amount of people I've chatted to who have gotten book deals by like lying to agents and like lying to publishers and stuff to get at meetings. You know, oh, I've written a book, I'll send it in. Oh, no problem, then I'll write it tomorrow and then send it to monday. You know, like you've got to do what you can do. Whatever it is in life, you've got to do what you can do to make it work.
Speaker 2:I don't know how appropriate this is for two lawyers to be talking about. I never actually qualified law school no, no I don't know, I will get myself together. So you know you're sitting at uni. So you did law at uni yes, I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I went back after. So I did science, I went back and did like the two-year course. So in scotland you can do a two-year course rather than four years right like half the time, and then you do the diploma and then you're qualified, type thing. That's how it works so I went back and did the, did the fast pass fast track course yeah, were you always writing though on the side, yeah, I was, yeah, I was always writing stuff and I was.
Speaker 1:I was in like a short story writing class for a little bit and me and my mate Marco, we were doing like scripts together and stuff. Oh no, that was later on actually, but no, I was always writing stuff. So I was doing short stories like everyone. Everyone seems to like start off doing short stories right, like I was. I was kind of like novels too much, that's just too hard, but I'll do short stories and I always kind of loved the idea of being, of having my work out there somehow and yeah being read.
Speaker 1:But I never. I think it was like we're saying I never thought of writing as a career. I always just thought it was a hobby and something that would maybe keep on doing and keep on doing and then I guess see where it took me. But I guess I never ever seriously considered writing as a means of making a living at all, I think.
Speaker 2:When did it change for you? Then, when you decided to say you know what, even though I have my job, you're working for you. Then, when you decided you know what, even though I have my job, you're working, you can live, you can eat, but this is something that I need to pursue, I know it's a good question.
Speaker 1:I think it must have been later on. It must have been when I was definitely qualified, I think, and I was doing a short story writing class and I was quite enjoying it and it was good because all it was was a kind of short story writing class and I was quite enjoying it and it was good because it all it was like a bunch of folk who you can meet and you'd write a short story and then you get like a topic to do a short story on.
Speaker 1:You'd write it for the next again week and it was good because I had a good deadline and it made me write stuff every week, which was good. And one week it was like a detective fiction and um, so I wrote kind of detective a short and the guy the guy in the class was like this could be the first chapter of something bigger rather than a self-contained story and I was like, oh, maybe I could work on a book, maybe I could make a, I could expand on it, and so that was kind of that was like 2013 or something 2014. So I was kind kind of first moment I thought maybe I could write something, I could write a novel after all at this point, but it still took me like years to get to actually finish it and I was pretty. I think the lack of deadline killed it for me. And I was. There was a lack of deadline and not really knowing what I was going to do with it afterwards and, I guess, not having much confidence that it was any good. So I was kind of like I'd write on it here, there I did, it was any good. So I was kind of like I'd write on it here, there I did, did a few drafts. And then it was um, I read, uh, and I one day will dedicate a book to him.
Speaker 1:I read arnold schwarzenegger's autobiography right, and everybody, everybody laughs. Right, it's one of the best books I've ever read in my entire life. Like I, I actually didn't realize how much I love arnie until I read this book. This guy, right, he grows up like poor in this farm in austria and he's like I want to become a bodybuilding champion. And everyone's like shut up, arnie, get out, milk those cows and shut up. And and he's like no, I'm good. So he gets up like four in the morning, three in the morning, like works over two hours, like works in the farm all day and works out tours in the evening and does this every day, gets massive and wins like the local bodybuilding championship stuff. Then he's like I want to become mr universe and he does it and he's this big, big figure. And then he's like I want to go to america and become a hollywood movie star and everyone's like shut up arnie, like you can barely speak english, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:and he goes over and he does it. You know, he becomes this massive, humongous action hero. And then he's like, right, I'm done with that, now I'm gonna go and go into politics. And everyone's like, no, do you? Don't, don't be ridiculous. And he does it because a massive success in politics.
Speaker 1:And every point he was like I put my mind to something and I just did it. And people laughed at me and said I couldn't do it. But if it's important to you and it means a lot, you know, you're just gonna do it. Yeah, exactly, and I read that. I remember that on a train going to work one morning and I'd be kind of working on this book for like two, three years because I'm not really getting anywhere with it, and I was like you know what I actually if it's, if it's what I want to do, if I just need to do it, I just need to stop being like a lazy horse and just and just sit down and finish the draft. And that really lit fire into me, just kind of like that. It was nothing fancy about the advice. It was, you know, the basic advice. Everyone gets told there's something about reading it and some of the way he said I was like this is what I want to do, this is my passion. I really just need to sit down and do it.
Speaker 2:Um, and I, and that gave me the drive to finish that, that first draft off it's sometimes, you know, like someone could have been telling you that for like 10 years every day and you just wouldn't have yeah, and you just wouldn't have heard it yeah, 100. But it just takes. You know, it's like some fun things, just they just have to be in alignment and it's that moment exactly.
Speaker 1:yeah, I think that's exactly, and I think I was like I was kind of like you know what I'm gonna train like an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening every day, that like prime writing time. I could be rather mucking about my phone or whatever. I could easily be doing like two hours a day writing without having to think about it, and so I was like I should use this time better. And so, yeah, I will always owe Arnie a debt of gratitude.
Speaker 2:Who would have thought Arnold Schwarzenegger would have been the one that gave you a kick up the arse I'm not ready. Would have been the one that gave you a kick up the ass, but you find new influences in so many different ways. It may not necessarily be. You know the traditional teacher telling you what to do. It could be literally just that moment in time, because you sat down on the train and you read. I think it could have been one line it could be.
Speaker 1:I think I totally I think you're right that it's all about timing and stuff and it's all about timing and stuff and it's all about like this is a moment, whatever the things of a line that it's like, it's kind of shown me this is the possible path I could have and just go for it.
Speaker 2:I think as well a lot of people, because I've said this before like on this podcast and in pieces I've written that sometimes you think that you need to have everything, like, perfectly set up before you can sit down to start to write this, this epic that you've been planning to write for like five years. Like you need to have the right software, the right pen. You need to have everything needs to be perfect there's always something hold me back.
Speaker 1:I just need to fix that, I'll be fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, and it just and I think there's some people hold on to that I need to have this and I never get the thing done that I really want to get done I totally agree with that.
Speaker 1:I think it is. It's easy because it's quite scary. You know it's a big job. You can. It's always by yourself in your own head, and I think it's easy sometimes to kind of look for reasons not to do it or to, as you say, I have to, like I had to make sure the house is tidy and then I have to sit down with the right cup of coffee and my pad. Whatever the thing is, your scene has to be perfect, and it's never going to be perfect. You just have to go for it.
Speaker 2:No, it's never going to be perfect. So you know, when you wrote not the Midnight King, because I'm going to ask you about the Midnight King, because the Midnight King is brilliant, I just want everyone to read it. But you know. So you know, you said that piece that you were writing and someone said to you this could be the start of something bigger. Was that? Welcome to Cooper.
Speaker 1:It was, yeah, exactly so it was very similar. It was like two detectives kind of in this nightmarish city and there was a dead woman with her eyes gouged out and then there was some kind of hint that one of the cops was bent I can't remember exactly and all of that pretty much translated whole almost to the book Like the same murder victim, the same like bent cop, the same kind of like horrible I think it was. I changed it to snow rather than rain, but pretty much it was not so similar it was. And yeah, so that was a kind of genesis of Welcome to Cooper.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Did you surprise yourself? You know when you get to the end and you've written the end, even though your editor will take out the end.
Speaker 1:I love writing the end because I feel like you have to have something to say. You've earned it.
Speaker 2:It's that nice little moment at the end. You've earned writing's. That nice little like that's what it is, isn't it? At the end, yeah, you've earned right in the end. I remember the first time I got my must be. My edits came back with the jigsaw, the jigsaw man, and I got to the end and the end had been deleted. I'm like what? Why have you taken off the end?
Speaker 1:I have finished like no one. No one says the end, but it's like no, no, it's.
Speaker 2:It's important to me, it's a psychological thing, yeah, yeah what was it like for you at that moment when you first got like your finished book in?
Speaker 1:your hand. Oh, it was, it's nuts. Yeah, it was it's. It's kind of hard to describe, I suppose, but again, you kind of feel like, because it's such a long process. That's something I didn't realise was how long it takes, like, like, and you've gone through all these steps and the gatekeepers at every point, etc to get through to it. So, yeah, and you think, and I think how bad that first draft would be when I did it to get to the point, and the number of people that are involved in helping you. It's quite humbling in a way, right, the number of people that are involved in helping you get to this final book that you're holding in your hand. There's, like, your agent, your editor, publisher, marketer, whatever it's all these folk working to make your book a reality. It's quite a moment and just seeing the physical thing in your hands is quite cool.
Speaker 2:Did you ever feel because I think I've said this to you when I was talking on your podcast and how I felt ill-prepared for being a writer? As opposed to, you are prepared, you spend a long time preparing to be a solicitor and then you're doing your job and you're you know, you're constantly having to do like courses, continuing your professional development you're doing that for writers.
Speaker 1:No, I know, and I didn't really know what to expect. Like you know, obviously we've both been kind of doing the writing scene for like what five, six years now yeah or so.
Speaker 1:But you're right, when you start I was like, oh so you have to go to festivals and go on panels and all this kind of stuff. I didn't know was a thing like how it worked, like you know just the fact that there's like a community of crime writers and other writers, that kind of like you kind of join, and then there's this whole other world that kind of exists that you don't know is there. Yeah, I kind of thought you could write it and then, well, I don't know what I thought.
Speaker 1:I think, like when you first, before you kind of get into it, I remember thinking, once I get an agent, that that'll be it like yeah, once I have my agent, I'll be sorted, they'll do everything for me, they'll, they'll fight my battles for me, they'll get me in every way. I'll be in the supermarket and then you get, you get, you get an agent. And it's like, well, that's the first of many hurdles to jump through and, yeah, you need an agent, but it's not the end of the journey and it's I didn't have a clue how long and how many people you have to, like you know, get ticks from and get yeses from to get through. And then, and then still at the end, you're like where is it going to be? Is it going to be in supermarkets? Yeah, in shops, is it, you know? Is it going to be an e-book? Only it's, it's yeah, I didn't, I didn't have a clue what to expect.
Speaker 1:I think, think, going in and I don't think anyone does no one ever really talks about the reality. I think much of what happens after you've got that deal or got the agent, everyone's always like here's how you get an agent, my agent story, blah, blah, or how I got my publishing deal, but the reality after that is the world of being a published writer, going to festivals. I think this year I come pretty much to a festival like every month, which is amazing you are at a lot of festivals because you're at a lot of festivals too yeah, not this year.
Speaker 1:I think I cut down last, I think the year before and definitely the year before, that I did a lot and it's amazing, right, and it's great, and it's great and it's fun and you get to see the book, but it's also pretty knackering and expensive and I had no idea that was such a big thing to try and push a book and you're always kind of thinking, how can I move the needle, what can I do to actually shift this book? And in reality you can't really do much.
Speaker 2:You can tweet stuff, but I feel it makes like zero impact, like you're shoving into the void a lot of the time yeah, I feel that and I don't know if it's me just I feel like I'm just being like some code, old and cynical, like grandpa simpson. I just feel like I'm just being miserable, but but I I ask myself a lot. It's like what? How much more can I actually?
Speaker 1:yeah, do. Yeah, I know what you mean you know you do the fact.
Speaker 2:You know you do the festivals, you do the podcasts, whatever um. You know you post your book on whatever social media platform of the week is popular yeah, it's not been run by a nazi this week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's exactly, it's not been and you're like.
Speaker 2:Well, how much of an impact is this making and who's actually hearing me?
Speaker 1:yeah, and it's hard. I totally agree with that, and and and it makes me wonder, like this is from like, from folk who are, who have a publisher behind them, who's, like you know, doing the heavy lifting, really, who's who are the ones who can make the difference, who have the connections and who get you in front of panels or get you into newspapers or whatever. If I was self-publishing myself, I feel that there'd be such a pressure, I think, to try and work out how do I advertise myself.
Speaker 2:And it is it's really hard.
Speaker 1:It's way harder than I thought it would be and certainly the stuff I've done has done barely anything like to move in. It's like social media stuff doesn't really do anything. I paid for some Facebook ads that did nothing. Um, I think going to festivals is is a good way of getting yourself out there, for sure, and you can hopefully sell some books and get yourself known, that kind of thing. But even that it's still quite kind of small. You're kind of you're in a niche writer's world. Aren't you still in the festival and you've got in your? And there's author and there's the public who come to a festival are not the general public. They're like. They're like folk who love writers and love reading books and stuff and trying to push to the wider to make it like a big splash. That's really difficult, I think yeah, there's, there's not much.
Speaker 2:because, yeah, there's not much, god. This is depressing. There's not much you can do and you can't really predict. You know what will gain traction. Yeah, yeah yeah, it's funny, isn't it? The books that do.
Speaker 1:Well, you see books that have had not much of a marketing push behind them for whatever reason, just take off, whether it's been reviewed in the magazine at the right time, or it's done on the tv, or it's done something that's just caught it and it just spiraled. And then you see books that have had such massive marketing pushes and like tons of money behind them, and then they totally flop. And those are the ones I find really surprising, because I'm like. I'm like I would have thought if you've got a publisher that's putting tons of money behind a book, it can't fail, like if it's. You know, and we've all seen books that are like everywhere, that every festival they're on bookmarks or on like newspapers or emails about it and stuff.
Speaker 1:Oh I say they're in the toilet that is a good way to think about it, but exactly that's exactly it. And then, and then they totally flop and I'm like how is I feel? That's almost weirder, because I'm like I would have thought just the amount of like times it's out there, people would be buying it just because they've seen it everywhere, but obviously not like it's. It is funny. It's really hard to predict and they obviously publishers struggle with it as well, I think yeah, I mean it is.
Speaker 2:I mean we could name a book but we won't probably talk about it. But no, but we could name a book where I remember because my book and this book was supposed to come out at the same time the mind got for various reasons, mine got moved and I remember thinking seeing like billboards oh god like it was disgusting billboard.
Speaker 2:But this was like six, seven months before yeah, about no longer than that. I think about six, seven months before the book even came out, yeah, which is early. So they were already promoting the book seven months before it was even due to be published. And I said it was.
Speaker 2:It was every everywhere you turned, like you open an email from the bookseller and like there, it was on the banner and then it just it came out and I remember, because I get the books, and I'm thinking, well, I know, when the email, I expect it to be number one. Yeah, and it wasn't, and it was nowhere near.
Speaker 1:See, it's weird, right, and it wasn't, and it wasn't nowhere near see it's weird right, but you think that would that alone. That push would would would give it massive sales, but it doesn't yeah, it can't, you can't predict it.
Speaker 2:But then on the flip side of it, you know, you and I would have heard so many stories from people from other authors saying all they want is a bit of marketing spend. They just want a little bit of publicity. If they just had something, then they know they will do.
Speaker 1:You know they'll get a few more sales the way the publishers like split the marketing budget for stuff like it. It makes no sense to me. Like I kind of think, you know, rather than giving, like you know, 100 grand or I don't know, I made that figure up 100 grand, say, to one book, now why not give it like 80 or 90 and give I said that 5 or 10? Like you know, I don't like because you get some books, I get nothing. I get. Like, as you say, we've talked to folk who who have, like you know, all my publishers gave me like a tweet on release date, like that's like the biggest, that's the only wouldn't. Surely they wouldn't make money as well, right, they would. They want the book to sell because otherwise you don't make any money off you.
Speaker 2:This is what I've never quite understood, because you know, and I said I've probably said like a broken record, I'm so upset repeatedly on this podcast and to anyone who would listen to me is that in my head it doesn't make business sense why you would buy a book. So like I'd buy your book and then say you know I'm gonna sell your book but then I won't do anything to promote it. Even quick, fit want to sell tires. You know they'll promote the tires because they want to sell yeah, it's very, very odd, very odd it is a very odd.
Speaker 2:It's a very odd situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know I don't, I don't get it. So I think I do think, like there's certain authors and there's certain authors that you know will sell, that don't need the marketing spend, that, like are massive names that will get. You know people will buy it regardless if you see it on a shelf. They don't need much. And yeah, so I definitely feel the lower end, kind of mid-list to low end authors, like I feel that I often feel it's quite unfair and they should get more of a push, especially like the big five, whatever you've got like, who I assume are just swimming in cash and just like you know well they are.
Speaker 2:They say they're not, and then you see, like in the year oh, it was a record breaking year and you're like, oh really. And it was just London book fair the other day and you and, I think, us publishers were spending loads of money.
Speaker 1:You're like, oh okay, so you got the money. Yeah, I know I sound so bitter, I just don't want some of that money. That's the big deal. I just want some money. I know it's a very odd world. I think that's the kind of thing which you don't know about right when you're coming up to it. You've no idea the reality of how books work, of how they work, of how their market, like I just kind of assumed all books did quite well, they were in bookshops and stuff, and then how they were out to like film deals and all that kind of stuff. It's just I knew none of it. I absolutely knew none of it.
Speaker 2:No, it even goes back. You know the whole supermarket thing and I always get and I shouldn't get frustrated, but I also get frustrated. Frustrated like to think that I have a job like I. I can stand in front of a judge and convince a judge as to why I should not put this person in jail. Why is it such a surprise to me that your book doesn't just appear on the supermarket shelf? It's like I shouldn't be naive about that. But then you learn it's a whole, it's such a big thing, right, like getting into the market.
Speaker 1:It's such a big deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so hard because you've had your books in the supermarket, right yeah, but even that, the you know supermarkets have changed and this is you know. You learn this now, but you know how much space is available. So I think the jigsaw man, the hardback was just in asda, right, and the paperback was in tesco's and asda. Then the binding room hardback was in asda only, but then I got Sainsbury's, tesco's and Asda for the paperback. Amazing, that's brilliant. Yeah, kill list. I didn't get no hardbacks in the supermarket but I got the paperback in Tesco and it's just. You just like no rhyme or reason. Then there's no rhyme or reason, but you're just grateful because you're like foot traffic, yeah.
Speaker 1:Pick up your bread and get a, no rhyme or reason, but you're just grateful because you're like foot traffic. Yeah, pick up exactly, and I definitely it's remarkable, weird ones because I think the shelf spaces must be getting.
Speaker 1:They're getting smaller, aren't they? They're definitely smaller, I think, and you started and, and certainly the ones I've been I'm probably in a test course and I look at the book but, um, like often, it's like it's the, the name you totally expect. Like the cookbooks, the team, all of the cookbooks. Or like team of all the cookbooks. Or like the celebrity authors yeah, they've got tons of space. Or James Patterson's got like five books there or something you know not a bit more than a word off, and yeah, and everyone trying to squeeze in, and there's always quite a lot of like, like cozy historical fiction.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like World War II.
Speaker 2:With the nurse on the front nurse on the front.
Speaker 1:But they must do really well. They must sell really well supermarkets, because I always see a bunch of them yeah, it's, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's like you were saying, and I've said it before, that you get all the advice in the world as to how to find an agent. You know what to do to submit your book to an agent, but then one and also your agent. If you've got a good agent, they will prepare you as much as they can, but there's still a big, massive gap between you signing with an agent and then you going that whole publishing process and then promoting your book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a weird right because I'm never reading you know the stat everyone's read, which is like the average author makes like 10 grand a year, some impossibly low sum, which is like pretty depressing. Yeah, it's kind of nuts because I'm like like the reality of being an author and trying to make a living off it is is that most people it's not possible, like it's you have to have a side job and like, and it just seems bizarre to me that the whole, the way, the way the money works, because surely we want people to be authors, we want that to be a big thing, like we want writers to do well, etc. And I think my worry has always been like writing becomes something which only the rich can do or those that have like trust fund money or trust funds. Yeah, exactly, I haven't have money from the day job and enough time to write on the side.
Speaker 2:But I feel it's a real shame if we're, if writing becomes the kind of reserve for just those that have money and can afford not to work a day job, and that would be a real loss you can see how easily that could be, that because it's like law down I say down down in England, in Wales, there was a point where they'll be saying the only people who could become barristers or solicitors are the ones because the pay, especially if you're doing criminal law there's no money.
Speaker 1:I mean criminal law pays really poorly. It's all legal aid stuff. I think a lot of it. It's not very much. And then even if you want to become an advocate in scotland, it's like a year unpaid. You have to trade and and so that right there is a is a barrier for a lot of people, you know. So it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:You know capitalist society listen, look how miserable pair we are what is the point?
Speaker 1:what's the point of anything? Why are we doing?
Speaker 2:this derek? Why did we bother? What were we thinking? All right, should we just talk about books? I'm too sad now we're too miserable, let's cheer ourselves up. So what was it like winning an award with a proper interview? What was it like when you won it? When you won your bloody scotland debut?
Speaker 1:award. That was amazing, that was brilliant. Yeah, that was. That was a. Yeah, that was 2021 or 22. Yeah, it was amazing, that was it was five, four, five or six of us up for it. And I remember going down it was the same year that frankie boyle was up for it as well and I was like frankie, frankie boyle's got it in the back like he's gonna win it. You know he's, of course he's going to win. You know, his course, game over, game over. And then he didn't turn up for the award. He wasn't there in the evening and I was like, oh, interesting, and then, and yeah, we were kind of sitting waiting and then the name flashed up on the screen and stuff and I was like I just couldn't quite kind of believe it was actually, it was me, it it's amazing did you feel like it validated you and validated all those decisions that you'd made?
Speaker 1:yeah, definitely, because I think there's 100% in the whole imposter syndrome, which is a real thing, and even when you've written a book that's good enough to get an agent and you know, and I know a lot of that is luck. It's like right place, right time but you've managed to get through that bit.
Speaker 1:I don't know, fraud's too strong a word, but you definitely feel like it's like not earned or it's it's at some point it's going to kind of fall apart or it's, or you're not able to do it again and it's. You've all these kind of like stresses on your stuff, and I think winning something like that was 100%, or even being nominated, to be honest, was was definitely a validation of like. Actually, the kind of independent people have looked at it and said this is good enough to be of a certain quality. I think so, yeah, that that it. It definitely gave me a real boost in terms of like, morale and energy for going into writing the next book after that but it doesn't stop people thinking that you're rich now yeah, that, that, that 500 pounds ago, that went a long way I mean, you got 500.
Speaker 1:I couldn't believe it. They phoned me up and they were like, what's the bank of? And I was like, oh my God, there's a cash prize involved. Amazing.
Speaker 2:You just thought it was a trophy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I was happy I had the trophy, but the £500 was icing on the cake.
Speaker 2:How did it change you as a writer?
Speaker 1:Or did it change you as a writer in any way? Um, it probably gave me confidence, I think, to write, because at that point I'd written two books and I must have been about to pitch my third one.
Speaker 1:Um, because my first book was published by Amazon and then I came to write book three and I think at that point so it gave me a confidence. I think that I was, that I kind of knew what I was doing a little bit. And I was. And I remember when I wrote, when I pitched book three to Amazon, they said, oh, it's a bit dark, it's a bit dark for us, you know, and what would you like? A kind of reb. I'm loving this idea and I really want to write this idea. And so I ended up really amicably parted ways with them and I've kind of gone back to them now anyway. So it's all kind of worked out.
Speaker 1:But at that point we parted ways amicably and I went on to write the Midnight King and I think I think maybe winning that award gave me the confidence to trust myself a little bit and to say, actually, you know, if this idea is really speaking to me and it's it, it's in a way that kind of means something I think I'm going to trust myself, I'm going to write it and I'm and even though I've don't have a publisher signed on I'm, I'm happy to take that risk and to write it and then try and sell it again after that, because I think I was if I hadn't won that award, I would have been much more.
Speaker 1:I think of. Well, I'll just, I'll write what you want me to write because I want to keep getting paid and published. And I think it was. And yeah, I think having the confidence to say no, I'm going to step back, and also having and the fact that I was working meant I had the luxury of being able to say I've got income coming in from a day job so I can afford to take my time and just write it, and and not write what you want, what you want me to write, just because I need the money to pay the bills. So that was, that was, that was nice it's a lot to be said, isn't there?
Speaker 1:to having that confidence in yourself, to not only to say this is what I want to write, but to say to someone else no, this is, I'm not going to do what you want me to do yeah, as, as it's tricky, especially when you're starting off, I think and I'm, you know, and I've changed agents since then as well and I think so much you're so grateful right when you first get in, because you're like, oh, I'm getting an agent and getting publishers like, oh, this is I'm so, this is like you're just so happy someone's offered you this, this thing, and and and that the thought of turning it down or changing go back to square one a little bit is like terrifying. And you think, well, it's taken me like years to get to this point. Why would I throw it away? And I think you do have to always have to say to yourself, well, is this the right move for my career? You know, what kind of book do I want to be known for? Or you know, if I'm going to spend a year of my life working on this novel, you have to love it, I think.
Speaker 1:And if you're working on something that's like that's not a passion project, or or it's or you're doing it for the wrong reasons, or you're writing it for something but you don't believe in it, etc. I think you can become quite disillusioned with everything, because it's uh, and it's a lot of psychological stuff. You're in your head by yourself nine times out of ten writing it and if you're, you're not happy with or you don't like where it's going, or you're, or you know it's not. You're not being authentic with yourself. I think that kind of burns away at you a little bit and it puts you off. I think you have to love what you're writing and you know deep inside, if it's not the book you should be writing yeah, um, it's before we, before we started recording, I doing another interview and we were basically saying the same thing.
Speaker 2:You need to be enthusiastic, oh yeah, in order to sit at this desk in front of your computer or in front of your notebook, let's say, for eight hours, and to be committed to a story. You need to. I'm not saying like you need to basically fall in love with your characters in your story. If you don't have that, it's like what's the point?
Speaker 1:Totally agree with that. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right, and I think I think everyone's read books. That's like, you know, and you can tell that it's like, yeah, it's a bit boring, and and I'm pretty sure if you're bored writing something, I'm sure that comes through when we'll read it. I think it's folk can tell when there's no passion behind it or when it's been written by a committee or it's just been done for the money and stuff you know yeah, it's even because even before I said my other conversation, we were talking about books that have been.
Speaker 2:You can tell they've just been written with the clear intention of being picked up for tv or for film. Yeah, yeah, and I, yeah, and I said I'd read. I'd literally read about three books in a row and for each book I was like this has just been written because there's something missing, like there's a heart, there's some kind of, there's some like the heart is missing from it, and I thought this has just been made.
Speaker 1:This is just a script, really yeah, yeah, I think I think the books that I I love that and stay with me and I've reread and stuff there's, there's a energy to them right, that that, like that you can feel on the page, I feel. I think, then, that that comes from from the author, I think, just being totally immersed in it and and writing it from the right place of, like this is the story I want to tell right now and it's all I can think about. It's in my head and and certainly when I was writing the Midnight King, that for me, was, you know, I was always thinking about it, I was going through my head, but when I wasn't writing it was there. I was going back and forth and I never, I never got bored writing it. I was always excited and, you know, obviously those days it felt crap and it's not working, etc.
Speaker 1:But I feel that that frustration comes from a point, a place of I know what I'm trying to write, I know what I'm trying to tell, I just can't seem to get it on the page properly, or it's not, it's not working or it's I don't know how to, how to get from what's in my head to get on the page, and that's, I mean, that's always the hardest part of it, I think. But but I think that frustration is a it's a good sign, because it means that you really are excited of what you're trying to do it's an interesting battle to have and it's a battle that there's no writing class or writing book, yeah, ever tells you about glad.
Speaker 2:The same thing with this. I've got this book. I've been working on for it feels like years now, but it's not in contract to anything, and I was working on it the last couple of weeks and I was thinking there's something missing, there's something I'm not getting right and I think I could just scrap it because no one's asking for it. Yeah, I sent it to my agent and he liked it. I don't know why he liked it because, yeah, it's a crime, it's legal, it's legal yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I've been running away from it.
Speaker 2:But then I thought I could just scrap it because something's not working. And I just thought no, because I like the characters and I know there's a good story there, and I just had to go back and rewrite. You know I'm a planner, so I've just gone and rewritten the outline, but you need to have that, that love for it.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean when you're sitting, I just say, when you're sitting at a desk by yourself for eight hours, you know, for six, eight months, drive it for sure. And I think I think books like that, like you know, you've got your legal thriller that you're working on for years and you you go back to every so often, right, you do your crime, you get a jigsaw room, then you go back to a little bit, and then you get back to a little bit and there's, there's a reason, right, there's a reason. It's going back, and 100 and that means something, I think. So I think that you should, you should stick with it for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could just close the file on it because I'm like my edits have come back for book four and I'm like I need to go back to that and I can just focus on that. But yeah, there's something in it. Tarek, when did you realize you could go dark and go really good? This is the mid, can I say right when I was reading. I've shown. Let me show you again like. This is my proof copy of the midnight king. If you saw the state of it, this has been on planes with me. It's been everywhere with me. It's just it's in poor condition and I was reading and I'm like, oh my, this is like. I was like it's so it's so good, but it's so dark. Yeah, but it's good. So when did you know you could go dark?
Speaker 1:uh, I think I was. I remember that.
Speaker 2:I remember reading red dragon when I was quite young like at a high high school, that really how old, because I was about 13, I think.
Speaker 1:I probably must have been about a similar age to Bonas. Yeah, I was in early high school, so I must have been about 12, 13, 14, something like that, probably too young for it far too young but it really, it really connected like I know, I know you're, you're a big part of the jigsaw man. That kind of like going to a killer for advice. I love that. Like having to ask help from a killer.
Speaker 1:Something about that relationship I love and that book I'm reading now I was like God, this is dark and it was like, unlike any kind of book I'd read, I think up to that point and that kind of stayed with me and I think I was always like, whenever I thought back about what books have I always loved and excited? Stuff like Red Dragon or like American Psycho or, you know, secret History. These kind of like really dark, kind of like sometimes quite nasty books are ones, that which always have stuck with me and I remember I think the hardest thing I was found was working out how dark, what's the, what's the line Like how dark can you take something before it's unpalatable? I think.
Speaker 2:This is the thing Like I don't think I consciously think about my books being dark, like I just think this is a story and this is the scene I need to write, and your books are dark. Yeah, and I still don't think they are, but everyone's like no, no I don't you mean.
Speaker 1:I mean I, I think, I think I, I suspect, because I don't I feel similar to mine, like I don't, I don't see it as intrinsically as being a dark book, but then, but everyone's always like it's so dark and it's. And yeah, and there are definitely points in the minute king where, rereading it, I was like, oh god, this is like the scene's quite I didn't think you're gonna go certain places with yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny because so part of the reason that. So, when viper offered me um a contract for it, part of the reason why I jumped for them was because I know they put out dark fiction.
Speaker 1:I know they like they don't shy away from, and I was like a few have been safe hands, being guided by where the line is for that kind of thing, whereas a few other people might have been like this is too bad, cut it out.
Speaker 1:And I think and that happened with Welcome to Cooper, it was definitely I'd written it, I think in hindsight now the main character was so was kind of oppressively horrible. It was almost like a nasty, unlikable character, and so that had to get pulled back a little bit. And I think I mean really, though the stuff that I love to read is probably quite done like true sect of a type horrible, tense, grizzly, dark fiction, and I think you have to write the stuff that you love, and even if you know there's an audience for everything, now it doesn't matter what the topic is, that the audience, the internet is huge. So I think if you're writing something that you have that you love and you you would read, the other people would read it as well yeah um, but yeah I always work on long dark stuff is awful because I always work along the basis, I think, like my.
Speaker 2:I say my mandate is that you know there is darkness in it's not every single moment of the day, it's not every minute of someone's life, but it's pockets yes, that's what. Yeah, that's what the darkness is and I think that's what I try and do my book. So it's honestly you don't just want gratuitous violence just for the sake of violence. There needs to be a point to it I, I guess that's totally right.
Speaker 1:Like I think you know there's something like hostile, you know, that kind of like torture porn movies which, yeah, I don't like, those they're not, they would never be my number one. I love, I do, I love, I love horror films, but I'd have no problem with gore. But if it's gore it doesn't really have any. You know, it's, it's fun to watch in a group and you kind of like you know laughing and cheering stuff, but like I think the the genuine great horror stuff is the kind of proper like tense, horrible stuff, and it's stuff that you kind of recognize. It's like everyday stuff that's going to be twisted or there's there's, there's, there's a there's a reason for why there's a gory scene or there's a reason why it's happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that kind of, that kind of horror I really love and and so yeah, I think you're totally right, like horror for the sake of, or gore for the gore, etc. Has no place. I don't think for me. But it's the kind of, it's that kind of everyday stuff you twist on its head a little bit and, yeah, finding horror in those little moments, those little pockets, as you say, that's again we should talk about those little pockets of everyone's life.
Speaker 2:I think that's exactly it, yeah yeah, because, um, I did a panel a couple of years ago I think it was at harrigan and one of the audience questions was basically is there any topic that you wouldn't write about? And someone in on the panel said they wouldn't write about a child being murdered and my answer it just basically I put my lawyer hat on and I just said, well, I couldn't turn away from a case, no matter what, no matter how I feel personally about yeah okay, yeah, it's like I couldn't.
Speaker 2:The rules are, I can't say no to it, so I'd have to do it. So I kind of have that same approach to my writing I think that's right.
Speaker 1:I, I agree with that. I don't. I don't think anything for me. I don't think anything should be off limits because it's all. It's also all in the writing of it. Right, like you can do, you can write about anything, but it depends how you write it how graphic or how close or how far away, or the voice or how. Something that could be horrific, or the voice or how. Something that could be horrific, the same, the same turn of events could be horrific or sad or comedy. You know it really could be. It runs the gamut of, like, of everything. So I think it all depends how it's written and what kind of book you're trying to tell, what kind of story you're trying to tell. But ultimately, yeah, I, I've, I've, I think that nothing is off limits and I really love pushing kind of crime novels.
Speaker 1:Crime is a great genre because I feel it encapsulates like so much you can write any kind of genre almost in crime and I love horror movies and horror books and stuff. So I love kind of like pushing crime as much as I can, I think, into that horror genre without becoming a kind of all out kind of Stephen King horror book. Yeah, I love. I love that kind of dark crime, that terrifying dark crime novel.
Speaker 2:I always think, like the darkness it doesn't even necessarily necessarily come from, like the crime itself, so like of course they're like a murder. It sounds terrible, like a murder's a murder, like I can kill people in a variety of ways in a book, literally. I don't think twice. But I think the dark moments comes when you're dealing with the person. So when you are sitting with the same, with the serial killer, the witness who may not be telling the truth, someone who's got something to hide, I think that's when the darkness can be more frightening. And seeing the people and their emotions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think I think often, really, when people look back on great horror moments, it's character stuff, isn't it that really makes sense, like it's not just you know? I also think it's really hard to write like a, or even probably write or, or or shoot a horror scene like a tense, chase or thriller moment, if you don't know what the stakes are, if you don't know why that character is scared, you know what is it that's going on? I think you need to drill into the character stuff. I think you need to drill into what they've done, what they're up against and that is all you know.
Speaker 1:I feel character and plot are often really intertwined like that. But I feel stuff like that. But I feel stuff like that is mainly character. Like, as you see, it's, it's the, it's the way they speak or look, they give, or someone they've done, or the way they phrase. Something that kind of puts you on edge, like the how they, how they perceive what they've done. Do they view it the same way that you do? Is it abnormal like there's so much time you can play with that kind of psychological stuff? I feel that is like that. For me, is the meat of a good horror listeners.
Speaker 2:It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with nadine matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. I think that's one of the reasons why you know the film Primal Fear.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and the book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, richard Gere and Edward Norton. And I think the reason why I love that film so much, it's the end. It's not the moments when you're seeing the priest being murdered, it's that moment when Edward Norton switches and you're not sure, actually, is this the right personality? Is it? Is this the right personality, or has he made it up that moment? Have I just been?
Speaker 1:lied to this entire time. Yeah, 100%, that's the bit everyone remembers. That's the moment of the film that sticks 100%. I genuinely can't remember anything about that film, apart from that final bit at the end, when you're like, oh god, maybe he did do it. You know that that's such a great like character moment. You want those moments. Yeah, exactly that's exactly what I feel and I feel, and I feel like, and those are tough, those are tough, those are tough to do because it's a lot of build-up to. You have to you have to put it in place. You have to really kind of know where it's going and and and what kind of what expectations you're subverting by by, and how you've set up one path to then flip it to another, another path. It's, it's a lot of work, yeah I mean it works, it's amazing yeah it's.
Speaker 2:yeah, I can only reason. I can tell you what happens at the beginning, because because I think I watched it a few years ago, I think during lockdown it was on and I was like, oh yeah, I forgot. It's the priest that gets murdered and he's running barefoot on the train tracks actually Edward Norton.
Speaker 1:No memory of that at all. No memory of that. Was that Edward Norton's first film?
Speaker 2:I feel he was really young in it though Maybe it wasn't his first one, maybe it was the one that made him. Yeah, it must have been. That's right, yeah, it's that whole scene. You're just thinking, that's what I want.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right. So because you and I will talk for a long time and then forget we're actually recording a podcast and we have lives, do you want to tell the listeners of the conversation about your latest book, the Midnight King?
Speaker 1:Which I keep, the conversation about your latest book, the midnight king, which I keep saying is brilliant, because it is brilliant, thank you. So the midnight king is a novel about uh nathan cole, who comes back home to nashville after 17 years for his dad's funeral and he goes home to his dad's house and the big secret that he's lived with his entire life is that his dad was a serial killer. And in the wardrobe in his dad's house is a box of trinkets and, um, there's all the, all the trophies from his dad's victims that his dad's kept over the years, and the very top of the pile is a pair of ribbons that belong to a girl who's currently missing and is still out there, and he's he's been taken just days before his dad, currently missing and is still out there. And who's he's been taking just days before his dad's death and might still be alive. And so he thinks I'm gonna try and find her and try and save her, um yeah, you know what I liked about this book?
Speaker 2:it was.
Speaker 1:You know, you pick up a lot of books these days or you'll go online and it'll say this is the twistiest book oh god I have to say, like I have to say that I actually hate, hate that, because all it does is make me think I'm just looking for the twist now, and then I end up guessing it because I know there's a twist. Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 2:Well, that doesn't happen in here.
Speaker 1:I remember being on the.
Speaker 2:I don't know where I was going or where I was coming from, but I was on the plane reading it and I was like, oh, I thought this was gonna happen and this did not happen, and it's so good that did not happen.
Speaker 1:But I was like, but tarry, and I did the same thing that people say to me oh, but you're so nice and you wrote this honestly, I think crime writers are the nicest people because it's like therapy all over the page you get, you get all that kind of crap out and you kill. You're killing your work mates and your family, whatever you like, just having under the end. And then and then at one time you feel you feel great, it's like it's, you feel wonderful, whereas, like, I reckon, kids authors and like romance authors, they're putting all the good stuff on the page and all that's left is this like shriveled husk of a horrible person. I'm pretty sure that's not what wasn't there?
Speaker 2:a romance, I don't get it wrong could have been either a romance author or a child children's author in america who? No, it was a children's author. She wrote a book which is basically like a handbook to grief for children and it turns out she'd murdered her husband oh, amazing, that is brilliant I've not heard that.
Speaker 1:I hope that's true, that's a great, it's brilliant, that is great yeah see, we're not.
Speaker 2:We're not out there murdering people, it's a good idea for a story, isn't?
Speaker 1:it, it's so good putting stuff out there like actually writing. I'm sure there was. I've never heard about someone who was like who wrote a book based on the murder that they did and the book was used as evidence against them in the trial because it was so close to what they'd actually done.
Speaker 2:You normally get that with you normally get that with rappers and rap lyrics. I've lost.
Speaker 2:I've lost count of the amount of trials we did really yeah, having shot someone yeah, no, seriously, and then in court, the prosecution will produce the youtube video, because there's always a youtube video of them in their silly balaclavas and hoodies and yeah, but um, idiots, yes, they are. Um, I have two questions for you based off your book, because the one I like to ask now what was a major challenge or what did you find challenging about writing the midnight king?
Speaker 1:um the. So there's three perspectives in in the book. There's nathan, there's the son of the serial killer, there's isaac, his kind of old school pal turned pi, who's investigating as well, and then there's the midnight king itself, which is like a kind of manuscript that his dad had written that there's chapters of that that pop up throughout. So they're kind of there's three, I guess kind of like storylines that can run through and and juggling them.
Speaker 1:I found really tough juggling them to make sure that they were kind of I never wanted people to think when it jumped to another strand, you know, oh god, we're back with this. Yeah, this one's, this is the weakest one of the three or something, and I was trying to avoid that. And then and then try to make it feel different, like trying to give them enough of a different voice that that you don't feel like the same person. I find that quite hard sometimes, kind of giving giving characters distinct enough voices if they're especially kind of like, you know, like the same age. They're male, they're kind of they're both come back to the same city, they were kind of failed at something and and so trying to like make sure they had their own personalities and their own baggage they were carrying with them. That influenced how they sounded, that that that was quite tough, yeah it's a, it's a skill, isn't it?
Speaker 2:because I've lost count of so many books where they have the dual I say dual narratives, so multiple points of views in there. And then I could be reading it and I'm thinking I don't understand why you've even split it, because no one sounds distinct.
Speaker 1:You could have just encapsulated it all in one I say one story. Yeah, no, you know, I completely agree. And then I'm trying to make, and that's why, for the midnight king chapters, I think I ended up changing the tense to present tense for that one as opposed to past tense for the other two. I was almost just as a way of like making it sound different, because I was like it needs to try and feel like a different voice than the other two.
Speaker 1:so, yeah, so trying to juggle that, trying to make sure everyone and trying to get the timelines right, like having to get trying to work out when someone does something, what's in one strand, how, when is that lining up with the other person? And so at what point do I need to break from one to jump to the other? And it's a really good bit to break because it's a good cliffhanger moment. But then there's other guys. Like three days behind now, is that okay? You know, it's that trying to work out the logistics of all that that was ends up having to do like a big spreadsheet of like what was happening on each day, of like over like three weeks and who and and and lining all up and you know that was quite tough yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always. Whenever I get my edits back, I'm always like I know my first job is to sort out the timeline and I'm always like timelines are the bane of my life.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I totally agree yeah.
Speaker 2:And with the kill list, because I had flashbacks, it wasn't necessarily dual time. I suppose it is dual timelines because I'm going back and I said never again, I'm not doing this again.
Speaker 1:I get stuff in my edit notes that's like, oh, this is actually this is a Saturday, june 24th, 90 Fitness and I'm like, well, that's totally fair enough, but I'm kind of like, who's actually? Does anyone actually check? I'm assuming there must be readers that are actually like fucking this is garbage, like this is a, this is a Saturday, not a Tuesday.
Speaker 2:Just chucks it like the moon was in its first quarter. Yeah, it wasn't a whole moon.
Speaker 1:My new show about actually checking into stuff is like I mean I'm, but then I'm. That's why I'm gonna say I'm very glad that there is someone who does that stuff for me, because I would never, I would make, they would never get past but as much as I complain about it, I am the person who will check, especially when I got no for my own books, not for anyone else.
Speaker 2:I'm like, no, no, I'm not checking yours, but my manuscript, because I'm like I've got, you know, I'm framing people into the river. I'm like I need to check if it was low tide or high tide on the level of detail.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're saving yourself work down the line, to be honest I am actually, I think, also because I live near the river, so I think it's just ingrained on me like I'm very much aware of tide. All times I'm like, let me, let me check where the tide was at four in the morning on this day. Okay, and another question about your book, before we go into your last four questions, is which one of your characters would you like to spend the afternoon with?
Speaker 1:I say like Probably Isaac, I think.
Speaker 2:Me too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was someone. He was probably the most fun to write, I think, and of the three kind of main characters, he was the one that I had a kind of an actor in my head the whole time. Oh, really, yeah, so I had. So it was John David Washington I had in my head.
Speaker 2:Oh, that'd be so good.
Speaker 1:Den's, washington's son.
Speaker 1:So he was, and normally I know some folks say you shouldn't do this because it kind of influences the writing and it becomes a pastiche of someone else and I'm going to get that to some degree.
Speaker 1:But it actually really helped me because once I kind of once I was like this is who I imagined playing in a film version and I could see him as like I was. It kind of made it easier for me to kind of write it in a way that he would speak almost and and it kind of gave me a kind of made it easier for me to kind of write it in a way that he would speak almost and it kind of gave me a kind of character. I was okay, just I've got base off him a little bit. It did something heavy lifting for me, I think, in terms of dialogue or the way that he interacted with people, and so that was so I and I loved john david washington, so I was like this would be awesome every time I I said isaac was my favorite and that's who I'd want to spend the afternoon with, but every time he came on the page I'm like isaac, you need to eat properly.
Speaker 1:Well, literally like you need to go go to the doctor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like you're coughing up blood, man, I don't think you're gonna make it, even, just even, if a killer doesn't get you. I'm like you're not gonna make it because you're not well he's eating that greasy pizza.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. It's funny. You're always. You're always thinking of like how I need to put the character through hell. There's to be something. I was like let's just die, it's crap. He's got a sore stomach and it's all. You chuck it all in and then you're like yeah, and you're like, oh, maybe it's too much. Maybe there's this poor guy. He needs to have a good meal.
Speaker 2:This is so unrelated. You know, we were talking about video games earlier, before we started officially recording, and I was talking about Star Wars, jedi, fallen Order. And whenever Cal goes back to the ship, whenever I've got him moving around, I'm always thinking I don't think I've seen this man eat. I'm like he needs to eat. He goes to the ship. I'm like why are you not feeding him? He, he goes to the ship.
Speaker 1:I'm like why are you not feeding him? He's feeding plants. He's got your 3D chess game and stuff.
Speaker 2:There's no kitchen.
Speaker 1:There's no toilet. He's not. The guy's not on a ship. For about two months he hasn't eaten anything.
Speaker 2:Is he not my boyfriend?
Speaker 1:It's the Midichlorians. It's the Midichlorians coming in.
Speaker 2:I always say, this conversation goes up on a tangent, and this is evidence of the tangent of my own making, because I bought in Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order.
Speaker 1:I remember thinking that a lot, but it was Jack Bauer in 24, right, You're like. This is a full day in his life. When is he going to the bathroom? I have not seen Jack Bauer use a toilet or eat a meal once.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think. No, I don't think I had either. I, I don't think. No, I don't think I had either. I guess it was ad breaks. I think this is a good thing about good TV and how much it can influence you, because I don't know if I mentioned it to you before, there was a TV series called Homicide Life on the Streets.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, david Simon right, yeah, yeah, I've never seen it, but it's on my list to watch.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're repeating it on Sky Atlantic right now and I watched it, yeah, and I said I was young, so I think it came at like 92.
Speaker 1:Yeah, before the wire, wasn't it before? Yeah, yeah, way, way before the wire.
Speaker 2:So I think I was watching it when I was like 15 14 was that a big influence on?
Speaker 2:you, yeah, because it goes down. You know those pockets of darkness have been the same normality and also you know have been, or like I suppose just being a police officer investigating the case can be. You know you go in the office, you're drinking coffee, you're waiting, you know someone's having problems with their wife but then within those that time you have those pockets of now there's a killer, now something has happened. Now we've got to deal with the witness.
Speaker 1:Now we found the mod, the body, I think it's interesting because, like so many, so many books and films, dv shows they don't show you that kind of like the normality, the kind of boringness of the job like an exciting it's like god, csi is amazing, like it's, and the reality is it's so boring being a cso like you're just like it's not, like it isn't on the show, like it is like you're slowly just working a crime scene like bit by bit, like it's not, like you go and then like a montage you know crime scene's done in like 10 minutes, like it's yeah, it's not like that at all. And so I think showing that kind of the bano reality of being a detective, that's good, I like that a lot, that's cool yeah, no.
Speaker 2:So I would always recommend and it was a. I remember I loved it so much and I realized it was a book and I went out and bought.
Speaker 1:I don't know how I even found the book. I've got the book. I've not read that either, but I've got the book. Is it worth reading?
Speaker 2:It's worth a read and it's worth a watch, and I think it's just yeah, it's good to just see how you incorporate like normality within the, within the darkness, which I think is what you do even though you go dark. Even though you go dark, even though you go dark, you do things. You know there are rules. They say, like there's rules that we shouldn't do as crime writers I'm like oh well, harry did it okay I hate the rules.
Speaker 1:They're always annoying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know well, the rules don't make any sense because I'm like why? I got an email from someone saying to me I really enjoyed your book. I'm so glad you didn't kill any animals. You know you didn't kill any dogs and I said literally olivier's kicked a cat. You haven't bothered to say anything about that and there's a head in a box the whole.
Speaker 1:The whole animal is nuts right like I don't. As you said, you could do the most horrible stuff to people.
Speaker 2:No one cares which I've reached out.
Speaker 1:You and I've both done I actually killed a dog in my second book, but the key is to do it in a book that no one reads, so fly under the radar that should not have made me laugh as much as it did.
Speaker 2:So make sure it flops, and you can just make sure it flops and you can do as much horrible stuff as you want.
Speaker 1:It's fine. People only care. They read it.
Speaker 2:Oh, god, right, let me look, let me get on to your last set of questions okay. Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:um, I got maybe a bit of a hybrid, to be honest, because I I I actually really enjoy like panels. I'll enjoy like talking to people and podcasts and stuff. It's great. But I really struggle with promoting my own work. Self-promotion I hate. I hate going onto Twitter and shouting about myself, that kind of I really struggle with that side of it. I really, yeah, so I suppose, introvert when it comes to self-promotion, but when it's chatting about stuff and it doesn't feel like you're doing promotion, I don't have a problem with that if that makes sense yeah, it's not an easy thing to do and it can feel really unnatural yeah, it's exactly, yeah, it does, and like you're forcing your way on people, you're forcing yourself not in that way, but you're
Speaker 1:forcing yourself on people yeah, yourself, yeah, no, exactly, you're like. You're like and I'm kind of like do you fuck? When I do fuck, and I'm like six weeks to go and I'm fucking like shut up, like so that's in my head, I've all got that, that voice of food. But I'm like fucking shut up tarik, like that's just always there and repeat something.
Speaker 2:I'll just, I'll just leave it well, even today I because, okay, we're recording this on a wednesday and tuesday my this podcast the episodes normally get released on a Tuesday, unless I do like a bonus episode, but it'll be coming out on a Tuesday, so I think Tuesdays, you'll see that my social media there's, there's a lot. So there's stuff on, there's stuff on blue sky, there's stuff on Instagram, um, we also call it. I think that's mainly it now, friends, I know I'm not on Twitter, um, and even Substack, because they got a notice bit, and then today I was like I'm not posting anything today. I just feel like people's had enough of me they saw a lot.
Speaker 1:They saw a lot of me yesterday, yeah, and then and you read stuff like how to get you know, have success, whatever, on social media and it's like you have to post like four or five times a day. Oh, my god Jesus, that's enough. You know, so I'm lucky if I'm four or five times a week. You know, it's yeah, so I don't use it enough to make any impact on anything.
Speaker 2:To be honest, yeah, I think I always just say you just find, find the platform that resonates with you the best, and then you just do what feels good for you and, as we said before, what can you do to shift the needle?
Speaker 1:Fair little.
Speaker 2:I don't, and I suppose what probably doesn't help is that, like when I'm on YouTube a lot, because I've always got it on in the background, whatever's going on and you know the algorithm's like, and yesterday all I was getting was how to increase your followers on Substack, how to grow your Instagram, how you can do it in you know you just need to do these four things.
Speaker 1:I'm like all you people have you increased your followers? Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, right. Yeah, it's that, it's all the same advice, it's all the same crap.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it's like a nonsense. It's nonsense, yeah, tarik, and I cannot be asked. Okay, so what challenge or experience and I say it can be good or bad what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:oh, um. For that I probably do have to go back to the arnie situation. I think I think that was like that was a kind of pivotal moment for me in terms of getting that first book finished. I think if I I genuinely think if I hadn't had that kick up the arse from arnie, I probably would wouldn't, would never have finished the book. When I had um and and then trying to find agents, I remember I must have submitted to like 60 agents before I found one um who took me on um and that is like that's kind of so destroying, just continually sending out people. You're redrafting your cover letter, tweaking your line, spacing for everyone's age. It's got different like admission criteria, um. So I think I think I needed that, like I knew that, that kick to help me get like push through that kind of tough gate.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, there's always someone isn't there. Yeah, I remember, even when, um, because I was always writing I was talking about earlier, like I was always writing on the side and stuff and then it's only I did nano, was it nano? Remo?
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, remo, if it's cool, I did it. I did it 2013, 2014 I think and I finished it for the first time and I had this book and I thought, oh, actually it's the first time. And I had this book and I thought, oh, actually it's the first time. Yeah, it was the second time I had to finish something, but it was the first time I'd actually thought actually this could actually people would actually want to read it and I self-published that. But then I was just floating along thinking, you know, I'll just nothing major is going to happen, I'll just carry on doing my job. And then it was only when I said I entered the competition and I won it. And then I was kind of, well, I have no choice but to finish the book, which was the jigsaw man. But even at that point I was like, well, whatever happens, I'll just, you know, I'll just go back to doing my job, but it
Speaker 1:was um, but it was um that push, yeah, one of my tutors reason to keep going on, yeah yeah, one of my emailed me and he said I assume you've got representation.
Speaker 2:I was like, what are you talking about? I haven't got representation, for what? And? And I think it's only because I had that that moment. And then, as someone else said, yeah, you'll get picked up on this book. So, okay, maybe two or three people are saying it, yeah that maybe it will start to become a real possibility.
Speaker 1:I think, actually, this is something I could do if I. Yeah, go for it, yeah yeah. I think you need that, don't you think it's otherwise? I always kind of wonder would I still write if, if I hadn't gotten published and stuff, would I still be writing? I think I probably would like for the, for the love of it. But there probably would come a point where if I wasn't, if I knew I wasn't getting anywhere, I wonder if I would still go for it.
Speaker 2:I don't know yeah, I thought this. I literally had this, that same thought the other day. Um, I think maybe I also got, I think I got my edits back from my editor and I said to myself if I hadn't been, if I hadn't done the course, if I hadn't won the competition, would I have still at some point even have ended up writing the jigsaw man? Did I need that? Have? Did that thing to happen?
Speaker 1:or would it just be?
Speaker 1:something I would have done doing on this, I think you're right, I think, and it had to happen at that point in your life and it had to happen when you're working on the jigsaw man, like all those.
Speaker 1:There's so much luck involved in it, right, it's all stuff happening at the right point. When you're working on the right book at the right time and there's a gap in the market and you know an agent has not just signed someone similar and a publisher has not just put a similar book and everything has to line up just right for that path to kind of click together and then, once you're in, it feels so much easier getting other books out there like it, like, like, like you know you kind of you know you kind of you realize, oh, this is what, this is the kind of books people are, what this is where the markets go, this is the trend, this is the, this is what they're after. You know, I feel like I know I'm meant to be writing now it's yeah, it's difficult when you don't really know if I know what people are after, what's doing well or what people want.
Speaker 2:I think, when you're first starting out, do you think that you have a better sense of the business of it?
Speaker 1:now yeah especially moving publishers and moving agents I think 100 I think and I feel like a much better grasp of like what the market's like, like what kind of stuff does well, like and and and, and I feel comfortable not trying to chase a trend, like knowing that there's like, um, you know, peak trends, peak and fall and you never, by the time you get a book written out there, it's never going to be in time stuff. So I think, knowing what to ignore and knowing what to focus on, like a general trend of what's what's up like I feel I do feel like dark, horrory stuff's kind of having a moment a little bit now, yeah, people are loving kind of like horror books and stuff so and I feel that will probably last for a good few years. So that's kind of okay. Um, whereas like yeah, so I said it.
Speaker 1:So I feel more comfortable knowing what publishers are looking for, like okay, you want, like so I'm writing a police uh kind of procedure for amazon and I know very much that's much more lighter pc plot driven stuff and that's fine, it's quite fun doing that, whereas I know that my viper books, I'm hoping, will be more dark and gritty, yeah, and I feel more comfortable knowing what different publishers are after and what and what they feel comfortable trying to sell and what people like to read, etc. So yeah, I think it does, but it takes a few years, I think, to get a grasp on, like what the reality of the market is and the publishing world's like and stuff yeah, but also on the flip side of that, the fact that you don't.
Speaker 2:If you, if you, were thinking about writing to trend, I don't think you would have written the midnight king, no, no, I wouldn't, I don't.
Speaker 1:yeah, I think you're right because I think, ultimately, it always comes down to you've got to write the book that you want to read and you want to write that speaks to you in that moment. You've got to follow that, I think.
Speaker 2:Definitely Okay. So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be? I think I know don't do.
Speaker 1:Actually, that is exactly I would say you love writing, you love, you know, you love creating stuff. Follow that, don't worry about what the job will be at the end. I'd love to like see a kind of like wonderful life type, possible life that would have been, you know, had I said I'm going to do creative writing at uni and I'm going to do a creative writing master, some kind of creative, had I said I'm going to do creative writing at uni and I'm going to or do a creative writing master, some kind of creative writing course, and I'm going to see what happens at the end of it. And I think it's hard to say if it would have been better or not, because I think there's loads of folk who haven't done a creative writing course and they've done fine and but but I always kind of think my day job might have ended up having been in a creative writing field of some kind. Yeah, and it might have been a job that I didn't even know existed when I first started it, you know, but there would have been something and would that be better or worse, I don't know. But yeah, I kind of feel like I would have.
Speaker 1:I would have loved doing a creative writing course, I would have genuinely loved the course itself way more than I loved doing science or law, and I always wondered what that would have been like if I'd followed that. I just where would life would have taken me If I would have read it, write the same stuff. I would have gone down a different path, or who knows. But yeah, I feel it's. I feel I would tell my, I want to tell my kids now would be I'd say if there's something you love doing, like, just do that at university. Don't worry about where the job will take. You don't worry about, like, what you're gonna do at the end of it. Just do what you love, and there will be jobs that exist in that area that you don't know exist now. And you know, as long as you make enough money to have a nice living, that's all that really matters. You'll find something in that area. But follow what you love and and and. Don't do a course or don't do.
Speaker 2:I don't don't do a job for the wrong reasons because you end up hating it yeah, I think that that's why, looking back, when I think about going back to that moment when I got my a-level results and I did have that moment of oh my god, my life is over, right, yeah, but looking back, I'm glad I didn't study law at uni and I did history and I did American studies, because it was the stuff I was interested in and I enjoyed my three years and it was so.
Speaker 1:I feel I would have been too young for it the first time, I don't know. I probably would have struggled with it more. I think I didn't have the grades for it, certainly first time around straight from school. So, yeah, it's kind of weird, isn't it? I think, yeah, follow what you enjoy and just see what happens and just see what happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, that's for sure. All right. Now here's my new question. I like to ask now what is your non-writing tip for writers? So not the traditional. I don't know, you scrivener, I don't know, it's a non-writing tip, non-writing tip.
Speaker 1:Um, I would say I would say, don't, don't stress, don't stress about the writing, like, don't stress about the writing. I would say like like don't give yourself like word counts and stuff, like don't, don't, don't worry about, like like hitting targets and goals, because you only feel crap if you don't hit them. Go out and like like read stuff, read, read widely. Read the books that you want to write about, read the books and the kind of genre and the area that you want to write. But read other stuff as well because like it's the the, the inspiration and the ideas you get from other non like I read loads.
Speaker 1:I try to go to non-crime novels or graphic novels and superhero stuff and everything and the stuff that you end up pulling in, subconsciously, I think, from non-crime books is massive and like certainly like the dialogue in comic books, I feel, is like it's so like rat-a-tat-tat, like it's really sparse but like it gets everything across quickly and when it's done well, it's like it flows. It flows with the visuals in a really kind of like nice natural way and I try to copy that sometimes and I get that same kind of back and forth on the page.
Speaker 2:I've always said that I've learnt the most about character development from comic books.
Speaker 1:I totally get that yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because a villain's not just a villain. Honestly, they're born, they're created.
Speaker 1:something has happened to them the number of times I use. I use, uh, thanos's art infinity war as like a perfect, because like, half the movie spent on him, like they spent half movie fleshing him out, um, like, and, and you know exactly what his motivation is. He, you know, he doesn't see himself as a villain, all that stuff, it's all there, like it's, it's. He's a great villain because he thinks he's trying to do something good and and you totally get it's, it's, it's, whereas most other marvel villains in the films are quite like, rushed, like you're kind of you get a little bit of it and then they kind of then they're dead and it's over
Speaker 1:yeah, or a lot locked up in prison, but thanos is, is. And then when it comes to and the comic book stuff, as you say, you spend years building up a baddie, like years, and the motivations and the betrayals and all that. It's like soap opera stuff at a massive cosmic scale sometimes, but it's great seeing. This is how you build up a character, this is how you you know they're always trying to work out what, how you got someone like Peter Parker, tony Stark they've been around for like 50, 60 years making, keeping them interesting and giving them new quirks and dynamics and new arcs and new revelations. It's, it's, it's. If it's done well, it's amazing yeah, I agree 100%.
Speaker 2:I said story arcs also.
Speaker 1:It's like you have to maintain a story arc over how many issues and sometimes it's cross issues because you know you might have a green lantern issue and it's got a cross with yeah, but it's just yeah, I love when it's when a when a good, when a good comic arc is done well, like that. It's like again the amount of like planning and and it has to fall in the right place and, as you say, with other comic books across and over, it's just yeah, nuts, it's yeah, it's fantastic all right.
Speaker 2:So finally, tarik and I on a podcast is not good news, because we're just chatting and chatting and chatting and chatting. Okay, so finally, finally, tarik, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:so they can find me on blue sky. Uh, primarily that's where I'm really at now. I am on twitter, but I don't really post onto it anymore, like I've restricted my account or whatever it is now, so I don't really use that anymore. Um, I'm on instagram technically, but again, don't really use it. I feel like I don't know what I would post. I struggle with the visuals of instagram, I think. But, um, so, blue sky really is where I'm at. That's my big one.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, are you excited for me? There we'll find you excited for the midnight king. I feel like I just need to show it up again. Right way that way?
Speaker 1:yeah, no very much. I guess it's. And it's funny because my first two books was amazon um, who were great and and gave him a whole start and stuff, but it was they were primarily of ebooks. They were there was print versions, but it was they were really pushing e-books. There was print versions, but they were really pushing e-books. And I was never in a store because obviously every high street store hates Amazon and I kind of get animosity. That's fine, that's another thing. But this is my first time actually having a proper hardback in a bookshop, so I'm super, super pumped to go and actually see it on a shelf.
Speaker 2:Are you in supermarkets Because we were talking about it? I reckon the paperback will be. See it on a shelf. Are you in supermarkets because we were talking about it? I think so.
Speaker 1:No, I reckon the paperback will be too dark. My worry is that it's too dark maybe, which it's funny, though, as you say, like I don't think I I am the same as you. I don't really see it as too dark, but but I can, I can appreciate. Maybe we can compare to other. I mean, no, you've your books are pretty dark in supermarkets though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a fair point I don't know how, but you know people like it. But you know a question oh god, we are gonna go, but you've got, you've got um an audio book.
Speaker 1:Yes, the midnight king, yeah have you listened to audio book? So I just got like the file was npc. File was sent over the last week or so, so I've just started listening to it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah that's when you're gonna hear the darkness, because I didn't really, I didn't, I didn't appreciate, I didn't appreciate the darkness of my books until I heard the audio book, and because I think when you're hearing someone and you've got multiple characters as well as a multiple point of views as well, so when you hear someone, else that's good okay yeah, when you hear someone else reading the words and putting their own inflections into it and emotion it, you'll hear it and you you'll probably, and you'll stop in your tracks and be like, oh yeah, it is not.
Speaker 1:This is disgusting what is this film?
Speaker 2:who wrote this? Oh shit, I wrote this.
Speaker 1:Yeah you, you'll hear it in the audio, okay, okay because I've listened to like clips of it, but I've not listened, I've not, I've not got the the actual full file yet, so I'm yeah, no, I haven't listened to it.
Speaker 2:It happened to me. I just had it playing on Alexa, it was just playing and then I walked into my bedroom and I stopped and I was like, oh my god that is dark.
Speaker 1:It is dark okay. Yeah, I can see that because that you're kind of like you've got the distance right. You're not so close to it and it's someone else reading it to you. You need the distance from it Because when you're writing it.
Speaker 2:you know it's like you spent months, oh you're so close to it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:You can't see anything. You know who your characters are. You know how it ends. Yeah, yeah, okay right.
Speaker 1:That's cool. I will listen to that. I'll listen to it. Listen to to me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2:If I'm wrong saying, nadine, you're talking rubbish. But if I'm right, you can say I can't even look at myself anymore now. I'm sick of myself. I'm writing a comedy next. Right, I'm gonna end this.
Speaker 2:So that just leaves me to say Tariq Ashkenazi, thank you so much for being part of the conversation. Thank you very much for having me. That was so much fun. Thank you so much for being part of the conversation. Thank you very much for having me. That was so much fun. Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
