Remi Kone: Breaking In and Breaking Bad - A New Chapter

"Nothing lasts forever," Emmy-nominated TV producer Remi Kone tells us, reflecting on one of life's most important lessons. It's this perspective that has guided her remarkable journey from working on shows like Killing Eve and Spooks to crafting her debut crime novel, "Innocent Guilt."

In this captivating conversation, we explore the fascinating parallels between hooking TV viewers across multiple episodes and capturing readers across chapters, with Remi sharing invaluable insights about character development that apply to both mediums. "It's the characters you love, not always the stories," she observes, explaining why readers become so invested in fictional lives that they message authors to debate character choices. 

Perhaps most reassuring for aspiring writers is Remy's candor about the publishing process itself. From agent rejections that turned into valuable feedback to the surreal experience of seeing her words in print, she demystifies the journey with warmth and honesty. 

Innocent Guilt

Victim or murderer . . .
Can she discover the truth?

On a misty autumn afternoon, a woman covered in blood clutching a baseball bat walks silently into a London police station. The two officers assigned to her case are DI Leah Hutch and DS Benjamin Randle.

But the woman refuses to speak. She is not injured and the blood on the bat is not hers. What has she done? Is she the victim or the perpetrator? As Leah and Randle start their inquiry, a man is found battered to death in a nearby park. Journalist Odie Reid receives a tip off and is determined to solve the case first, trying to link this death to the woman held in custody.

Leah and Odie have history and very quickly their cat and mouse 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Quiet Time Before Festival Season
• 2:48 Remy Cohn's Writing Journey Begins
• 9:05 Handling Feedback and Editorial Notes
• 17:13 Balancing TV Production and Writing
• 30:27 The Thrill of Seeing Your Book
• 38:30 Inside "Innocent Guilt" and Character Development
• 54:47 Creating Villains and Character Visualization
• 1:07:18 Life Lessons and Writing Advice

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I have to wait to see my book in the library. But that will be a big moment for me because I just think libraries are amazing in terms of what they do. But when I got the proof it was really exciting. I was like, oh my gosh, that looks like it looks like a real book. I mean, it looks like a real book.

Speaker 2: 0:13

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I'm enjoying this quiet space of May. And I say quiet space of May because, even though I'm writing, I'm not doing any events, which is why it's quiet. I'm not teaching any baby lawyers at the moment, which is why it's quiet.

Speaker 2: 0:42

I have a bit of space and I'm going to enjoy it because literally as soon as June starts, we are going to be deep, deep into festival seasons and I think this summer I'm going to be actually not I think I know I'm going to be at Capital Crime in June. I'm doing Slaughterfest also in June. I'm then going to be at the Fexton's Old Peculiar Crime Writing Festival in Harrogate in July. I think I'm waiting for another event to be confirmed in July. I'll be free in August and then I'll be appearing at, I think, spike Island in September and there might be another couple more events scattered around October, and then I'll be free again. So, yeah, the summer is going to be busy. Well, june and July is definitely going to be busy, which is why I said, I'm going to be enjoying this quiet time, and during this quiet time, I have still been having conversations with many amazing authors, and a recent conversation I had, which you're going to be listening to soon, is with debut author Remy Cohn.

Speaker 2: 1:56

I love this conversation with Remy because not only is Remy Cohn a debut novelist, she is also a Emmy nominated TV producer, and she's worked on shows like Killing Eve and Spooks and Lewis, and I learned so much about the world of TV production, in addition to what it's been like for her as a debut novelist. Her debut novel, innocent Guilt, is out today and, if the title didn't give it away, remy Cohn is a crime writer, and in our conversation, remy Cohn and I talk about the secret to making your villain truly villainous, the art of creating charm on the page and the surprising challenges of writing a book. Now, as always, sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Remy Cohn, welcome to the Conversation, thank you, thank you. It's great to be here, right? My first question for you, remy, is how would you describe your writing journey so far?

Speaker 1: 3:02

Gosh, that's a hard one, because I feel like, because the book's out in three weeks time, it almost feels like it hasn't started. You know, like someone said to me the other day, you know what do you do and I always say I'm a TV producer because that's my day job and I think I'll have to go into a bookshop and hold the book in my hand before I say I'm a writer. I don't know, it just doesn't quite feel real. I sort of I started writing it because I've done a lot of I work in TV drama and I'd worked on a few thrillers. I've worked on a couple of adaptations and I've never I wouldn't describe myself as a writer at that point, but I was a storyteller. I'd written lots of stories or worked on stories with writers, and I think at first I was just really really intrigued to know whether I could do it and stupidly I thought it would be much easier than it was. And then I started and I was like whoa, this is actually very hard to write a book. So at first it was actually wasn't about getting published, it was just about seeing if I could actually get to the end of a book. And then, when I got to the end of it I thought, wow, let's, let me try and do something with it. And so it was just I changed, I shifted the goal posts every time I kind of got to a particular point, um. So, yeah, I think that that's kind of how it started.

Speaker 1: 4:17

And then I got an agent, um, and then when I got an agent and getting an agent was an interesting one because I sent it to like, a couple of people. You know, one wasn't interested, one, I think, was more interested in me, but I'm not sure they liked my book as much and what was in. And it took me a while to figure that out. And I think, because I'm a producer and I'm often, like you know, selling projects, yeah, and often you sell, you try and sell a project and doesn't quite work. You need to be really passionate about something, so if it doesn't work, you keep going. So I wasn't sure about that.

Speaker 1: 4:50

And then I, my current agent, who's amazing, um, she didn't take me on first time, but she sent me back my manuscript annotated and her notes were amazing, and so I kind of had this annotated manuscript. I mean, it was just she'd taken the time and I just thought, wow. So I kind of I was working through her notes and then about six months later, so my main character, leah Hutch, skips. I got an email from Camilla going. I've just been trying to skip and it's really hard. Have you done something with your book? And I was like, oh, I'm actually just like redrafting it.

Speaker 1: 5:24

And I was in the middle of like I was in production. I thought you know, christmas I'm gonna, I'm gonna redraft it and I'll send it back to you. And I sent it back to her. And then we met and you must have had this when you got your agent. I met her and she didn't say whether she was taking me on. I think she was checking. I wasn't, I don't know weird or something. And then I was about an hour into the conversation I was thinking in my head is she going to take me on? Is she not going to take me on? And then she said by the way, I want to represent you. And that's kind of how I got my agent.

Speaker 2: 5:52

I always say to people, especially when I've mentored writers, that if an agent says no, but they've taken the time to give you notes, they're giving you feedback on your manuscript. It's a good thing and I know it's hard sometimes to like distance yourself from the no, but the fact that they've taken that time to give you the there's literally absolutely nothing wrong with that at all and it's kind of like a good indication that they possibly, they probably will take you on if you do incorporate the notes and, yeah, do the work.

Speaker 1: 6:26

It's a really interesting one actually because you know and this is like partly about kind of projection stuff so I guess in my day job I'm often giving notes to writers and you're thinking about, you know how you're going to present those notes so that the note is heard, but it's, I don't know that it's easier to hear, because sometimes it can be hard to hear feedback. Yeah, and so when I'm getting notes, I'm always looking for the note behind the note, but it's, I don't know that it's easier to hear, because sometimes it can be hard to hear feedback. Yeah, and so when I'm getting notes, I'm always looking for the note behind the note, because I don't know, if you know, sometimes people put something down on paper or they say something, but actually what their real problem is is slightly different from how they've articulated it.

Speaker 2: 7:00

Do you know what I mean? It's like yeah, I do, but I don't think I've ever even like thought about it that deep. It's like I think I'm like you're probably like aware of it, like maybe it's like maybe it's something instinctual that says there's something more behind, there's more meaning behind what they've said yeah, exactly, I think.

Speaker 1: 7:18

I think. I think that was one so one. So the rejection. The rejection I got, I remember I've been she'd forwarded me on the internal note from her assistant which had been written for her, and so then she went oh, I thought I think you might find this helpful. And the internal note, I don't know it was, maybe it was because it was supposed to be just for her, but it had quite a. The tone was, you know, slightly like okay, slightly like okay, um, but actually when I sort of took a second and then reread it.

Speaker 1: 7:48

What she was saying behind the words was actually really helpful, you know. Going back to your point about feedback, yeah, you know, but she just sort of she kind of caught with solutions that probably weren't right for my book but they were addressing problems that were problems that I need to look at.

Speaker 2: 8:05

You know, I think it's, on one hand, like it's so cool that you could, that you can see that, but also as well, like it takes a lot, I think, for a writer, for anyone, to take on board the recognition that there are other problems that they haven't foreseen, because you can be so protective of your work you can be.

Speaker 1: 8:28

But you know what I don't know sometimes. That's why time helps. You know, sometimes when someone says something to you and in the moment you're like, well, you're, you know that's not right, and then you leave it for like 24 hours, maybe a week, come back, read it again, you're like, maybe, maybe something, maybe there's something that was niggling me, maybe I'll give you that. So I think time, time, always helps them.

Speaker 2: 8:49

Anyway, for me, the reason I'm laughing. I think I had that with my, with my last book. And, um, there's a, oh, there's like a scene in it yeah, no, it's just in in the new one which will be out next february and there's a scene and I love this scene. I think it's such a great scene and I'm so attached to this scene and I know it's like an unhealthy attachment and my editor from like when she gave me my first set of editing notes, I think back in like November, october, she was like yeah, you're going to have to get rid of this scene. And I'm like nope, nope, I am not getting rid of it.

Speaker 2: 9:29

No, I left it in there with my note, I left it in there with my editing, sent it back, and then it came back and she was like no, like it needs to go. And I'm like, no, because I think it's great, I think visually it's great and I know what it means. But then it's that time thing, because there's been so much time, from october till like to april, basically we've been with our second set of edits and I was, I concede, I was like yeah, she's right, I've had the time but you know what with with books it's harder because a book stays in the same form.

Speaker 1: 9:57

With tv, what? What tends to happen is you see the scene in a script and you're like script scenes, gotta go, scenes, gotta go. The writer's really resistant and then you are.

Speaker 1: 10:07

They just as resistant, like tv, like screenwriters sometimes but I think I don't think I've noticed it's a separate point. I guess in in books it feels like it's people are very much like it's your baby do you know what I mean? Whereas I think I think with tv there are lots of voices. But what tends to happen is then you film the scene and then you get to the edit when you've got the finished scene and you put it all together and then everybody realizes that the scene didn't work and so it's the same note that you had like a year before. It takes going through the entire cycle to kind of everyone's like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, do you know what? The scene doesn't work. You're like, oh really, oh okay, surprise, surprise, but yeah, so, but it's, it takes. But all these things. It just takes time. It takes getting used to. It takes getting used to the story.

Speaker 2: 10:53

I think sometimes did you find it difficult, though, to I don't know if this makes sense to remove your, to remove the producer side of you from the, I say from the writer side of you with your own book?

Speaker 1: 11:08

do you know what? That's a really good question, I think. I think I find it hard also because before I was a producer, I was a script editor. So I work with writers on their script. So I think the thing that's hard for me and everyone says you know a different form of the cliche of you can't edit a blank page, you just got to get it out. And the problem is, as an editor by training, is I edit in my brain and so you need to switch off the editing so you can just like spew, otherwise I'll never get to the end because I'm constantly thinking about why it works or it doesn't work. I've got the editor, so I've got to switch off the editorial side of me, and that's something I'm still learning, nadine, do you? I mean, it's like I kind of yeah, I'm still learning because I have to consciously, I have to consciously switch off yeah, I mean, I think this is the thing, though.

Speaker 2: 11:52

It's like you never stop learning as a writer, and I don't mean for it to sound patronizing, because I think someone could say it to me like what do you mean? But no, I think you do. Like you, you never stop learning, like you'll think. Okay, this is the way and this is the right route for me to approach, to write my book, this is the correct format.

Speaker 1: 12:11

Whether you know, you're a planner and you, you do spreadsheets and schedules, and then you might realize, actually this doesn't work, and you know what I love that you say that after like your four books in on you, because I think, yeah, because I like in my early 20s I wrote a play, didn't enjoy it particularly, um, but I loved talking about, I loved theatre and I remember someone came to a reading. I had like a reading and they were like, oh, if you do this, this and this, we might put it on, and I just thought I don't want to do that. I had no interest in going back into into it. But whereas with the book, I enjoy the process of writing it, I enjoy the process of like trying to make it better, and actually I enjoy the process that you're going to have stuff to learn forever. Do you know what I mean? Like it's never going to be done. You, hopefully, will get become a better writer. I love talking to other writers. I love reading books, you know.

Speaker 2: 13:00

So it's just like, yeah, this, I don't know, it's kind of exciting yeah, I think when you realize that every like I think everyone's everyone feels the same, in the sense that I was talking to an author friend of mine a couple of days ago and he's on his, I think he's on his fourth, maybe his fourth book or his fifth book that's coming out next month, not next month in June and um, and I was like, well, how do you feel? And he's like I'm nervous. And I was like what do you mean? Why are you nervous? You've got no reason to be nervous. I think you know it's gonna fly. And he's like, no, no, I'm nervous. And then I said to him well, I suppose you know it, that nervousness, that feeling of is this, is it gonna sell? Are people gonna like it? Like it, it never goes away, no matter how many books you write, whether you've written 10 books, 15 books or two books, that feeling of, oh my god, is this the one?

Speaker 1: 13:53

but you have that I really enjoyed. I really enjoyed the kill list, but that's the one. I started with that one. So I was and I haven't read the two before and I was wondering are the books slightly different? Like, did your, did you, when you wrote your second book, did you think, oh, my goodness, what are my readers? Did you think about the reader's expectation? Because, yeah, so well received.

Speaker 2: 14:14

Yeah, and I think I. And the thing is I started it because I remember my tutor had said to me um, I think when I I think when I signed must have been when I signed my publishing deal and he said to me um, start writing the second book now. Maybe when I signed my agent he said start writing the second book now, like don't wait. And I kind of did. I think I started, I did start planning it because I'm a planner, so I'd started planning it and then I think it just turned out that I didn't start writing it until I probably got into it properly, like during lockdown. But then the problem I like I had was that I was writing the second book but then all the because the first book was now going, the proofs were going out and the review, and I was starting to get reviews through and then the reviews were, you know, they were good reviews and especially like it's on net galley as well. So you get the readers reviews and I'm there thinking how am I going to do this again, like they like the first one? How am I going to do this again for the second one?

Speaker 2: 15:11

So it was, it was an additional pressure that I did not need. I know you get second book syndrome anyway. But it's like, well, how, how am I going to recreate this? How am I going to do this again? And then I had to have a word with myself. But I had to come out of my own head Because if I'd stayed in that frame of mind I don't think I would I probably wouldn't have finished it. I'm not going to do it.

Speaker 1: 15:32

Yeah, no, I mean, that's really helpful Because I think the second book is so hard. Do you know what I mean? And I almost wish that I'd started thinking about it at the, you know, once the deal was done, as opposed to I kind of waited till I'd done my copy edits and was going through the process. I was so concentrating on trying to get the first one right yeah, and I think it's.

Speaker 2: 15:56

I said that's that's the best advice I had start, just start the second book, and when the second one's on, you just start the third book. So even with my edits finished, for yeah to book four, which so that will go back to that's back with my editor. Now I will start my next book. I'll start doing my. I've got a broad outline but I'll start doing my proper do you know how many how many how many you want to write, or is it?

Speaker 1: 16:24

could you go?

Speaker 2: 16:24

for henley yeah I want henley to go on forever because I I enjoy it. I enjoy it and I think you know when you you still like your characters, that's gonna say it's like a relationship. So it's like a relationship in it you know you don't want to kick them out yeah, we'll keep it going, yeah why not?

Speaker 1: 16:49

why what? If it works, keep it going. Why?

Speaker 2: 16:50

change the thing. That's good, remy. When did you know that you could tell a story? Though, because I always think it's interesting, I always say that you can. There's a difference between knowing you can write because you can write, but telling a story you know coming up with characters and plot and putting them in different situations that people are invested in. When did you know you could do that?

Speaker 1: 17:11

do you know what, strangely, I'm the reverse. I I'm I guess I'm sort of shy about calling myself a writer, but I've always, I've always told stories. So, interestingly, even though I'm surprised, I've written a book that's getting published. None of my friends from childhood are surprised, because I've always told stories so like I, even when, when my sister and I were little, we had a whole imaginary world like full of characters and we kind of started off with our toys and then we invented it was literally like a soap opera, it's like a running soap opera, um, and and then, like when I and then I sort of I think I did I like wrote little sketches and stuff when I was a kid and then when I was, um, my first job in television, I was a storyliner on a soap opera or continuing drama. So I didn't write the scripts, but it was our job to like write the stories that were the engine, because it went out, like you know, six times a week and there was a lot of story to get through.

Speaker 1: 18:02

So, yeah, I think I've always told stories. I've always, like had characters in my head and I've always really enjoyed that, because I remember there was a day when I was a storyliner. When I looked around the table and there were like grown adults arguing about make-believe people, like literally people were slamming doors and getting up and having a tantrum and I thought, oh my goodness, I'm getting paid to do something that I did when I was six years old and it just felt I was like that's really cool, that's a real privilege it is that, oh, my god, I I can remember, can?

Speaker 2: 18:33

I spoke at the bbc, but obviously not in. Like, yeah, years, god, years ago, years and years ago, but it was, um, it was in the talent rights group, so we're dealing with copyright and okay, yeah, you know when, when someone wanting to use like 30 seconds of wildlife on one, so glamorous, it was so glamorous, it was so glamorous. But I remember walking into the office one day and I'm just standing at the door looking at, looking out at this open plan office, and I just thought I can't be doing this. Like this is not, this cannot be, this is not you. Yeah, like this isn't, this is not me. But I'm saying that, being in the other side of that, you know, being whatever, whatever room it is, and thinking, god, this is the thing like I used to do as a child and I'm doing it as an adult.

Speaker 1: 19:22

I remember someone once doing a little talk I don't know, it's probably like in my teens and they said they were a writer. I didn't particularly want to be a writer, but I always wanted to work like in film or tv. And they said, look, I've got a really cool job. And they went well, someone's got to have a cool job, why can't it be you? And I was like, oh my god, yeah, yeah, why not? Like I know, like a lot of my friends who hate their jobs and and actually I like both, I mean, do you?

Speaker 2: 19:49

like being a lawyer. I mean I'm not practicing full full-time anymore. I'm not practicing anymore. But I think when I I think things happen, like when it's kind of like supposed to happen, because when the book deal happened I already knew that I think I was, I was ready for change. Oh really, because I love, yeah, because I love the law and I love the incriminal law, but I was like I can't be doing and I actually I love going to. I still did enjoy that. Yeah, I like being in court. It's the theater of it. I like that bit of it. But it's all the other stuff around it I was getting fed up of. Like it's all the management stuff, it's the physical stuff of, I say, dragging myself up and down every single court around England and Wales so when you watch American um TV shows, they're always so glamorous the lawyers.

Speaker 2: 20:40

And then I remember my friends saying Lord is schlepping up to Birmingham, schlepping off to Manchester, just like constantly on the train, you know, and it was not glamorous there was no glamour me sitting in Brixton police station at three o'clock in the morning in a room that's tiny and that the previous occupants had been interviewing someone who'd been dealt, who'd been arrested for supplying cannabis and there's a point to this, right and when they were doing during the course of the interview, some smart alec thought let's get these two like bin bags full of cannabis, leave them in the small interview room with the heating on. So the time I got in there to do an interview I said I left there and the police officer he said to me I was driving. He said to me this will probably be a very easy arrest to make because I'm like I feel high, you feel high. So I didn't enjoy those moments when it got.

Speaker 2: 21:39

I was like no, I yeah, I'm like there is no glamour. There is no glamour in that. So, yeah, by the time the book deal happened, I was like you know, I'm ready. Yeah, oh god, I was so ready because I was deciding am I going to stay or am I just going to teach full-time? Teach what? Teach law, teach criminal law? Okay, that's what I was doing as well. So I was like am I going to do that? But then I think, when you've been, because I've been freelance for so long, the idea of being employed, like properly employed, and having managers and yeah, boss, yeah, that wasn't, that wasn't appealing to me whatsoever.

Speaker 1: 22:19

But you know what? I think that helps the mindset, because I've been freelance for a long time and so the discipline of writing I'm quite disciplined as a person and so I'm used to sort of doing stuff off your own steam, which I think helps, you know, because it's kind of it's a lot to manage in a sense, because there are a lot of words to get down the page.

Speaker 2: 22:41

How do you manage it? Then I never really ask people like, how do you balance like work and writing? But you know, because it's you're in, you're in two very creative industries, so how do you manage it?

Speaker 1: 22:55

or I mean, maybe ask me in a year's time, but like at the moment, um, at the moment, because I, because my job works in peaks and troughs, so like if I'm doing a tv, so the last thing I did was like a two and a half year stint. But you have moments so.

Speaker 1: 23:10

You have moments when you're in development with scripts, you have moments when you're in prep, kind of pulling all together the hardest and so you can do stuff then the hardest time to do other things when you're on set, because I might have like 17 odd hour days and I'll be in, might be in different countries, and when you're back in post-production, it's more civilized, so I think and then after that you kind of want to keel over and like sleep for about 10 months. So I normally have breaks in between jobs, so I think I just kind of try and fit it around. Um, yeah, that's, that's kind of my plan. But the hardest time to do other stuff is when you're in production, because like the days start like you know, four or five am or whatever, and they're kind of gone forever a friend of mine.

Speaker 2: 23:51

She was working on them. She doesn't do it anymore, but she's worked for a production company but they used to do documentaries and exactly as you said. So there'd be moments when I would say like the messages from her are just flowing. She's got that downtime, but in the moment, the minute, they're in production and you said then it's the post-production, you're not hearing from her and she could literally be anywhere.

Speaker 1: 24:13

Exactly, exactly, and I think you just then people just go into that kind of bubble, yeah, and the weird thing is, yeah, it feels like it's the most important thing in the world.

Speaker 2: 24:32

And we're only making television, we're not saving lives, but it's just so kind of all consuming, it's kind of, yeah, it's weird, but um, how do you feel that being a producer like actually did like prepare you for, as if for writing your book? Is there anything you you think you've taken from that world?

Speaker 1: 24:41

I think probably from the bit before, in terms of actually kind of shaping my own projects. I think the way I approach stories, the way I kind of plan my book, kind of draws on that first job in television when I was a storyliner and we had like a blank board and we have to like map out, beat out stories and there might be stories you didn't even like. So by the end of like a year storylining I thought I could tell any story. You might not like it, but objectively I was like I can make any story work because that was your job. But you'd be given a story and it might not be the one you want and you had to make it work. And then you'd kind of map out that story of, say, 26 episodes and then you'd then you'd be given an episode with other people's stories in it and even though you didn't write the original story, you had to make the whole episode work and it was your responsibility to go and defend that story to the executive producer. And so after that which was probably the best training I've ever had um, I felt, yeah, I can, I can make a story work. I know how. I kind of I can. I can kind of see the trajectory. So I think that's been really, really helpful.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Because a book very different from tv, but in series television you're constantly thinking how do I get somebody to watch episode one and watch all the way to episode eight and the end without kind of going to make a cup of tea and never coming back? And I think with the book well, you know what it's like like. There's certain shows you watch and if you're sitting there and you don't need to go to the loo or make a cup of tea, you'll carry on, even if you don't even like them. But the moment the phone rings and you go to the kitchen, you're not switching back on again.

Speaker 2: 26:10

No, there was. There were so many shows when people people like my friends and family like have you finished it yet?

Speaker 1: 26:16

I'm like nope, it's been like two years it's been two years and you don't want to be that book where someone reads like two chapters and they're like, nah, I'm done, I'm not gonna read it, kind of like.

Speaker 2: 26:29

I feel, I feel like you kind of have that same like approach when you are writing your books, and maybe especially when you're writing series as well. It's like I need to give you something to make sure that you come back, or not even you come back, in that you've already gone online and hit the pre-order but, you know, what you said about henley and like loving your characters, that's it.

Speaker 1: 26:50

If you think about I don't know do you have to answer, but think about the show. It's a series that you love the most. What has made you watch several series or something? It's the characters.

Speaker 1: 26:59

It's not always the stories you love, the characters you want to come back and when they kill them, you're really angry, you're emotional and I think what I'm enjoying about series television is I really love. I really love my main character, leah Hutch. I think she's tricky at points but I'm invested in her and I really like like the characters around her and I think my plan is that you know if I could write a series where readers enjoy her and want to come back and care about what happens to her. I think that's what's going to draw them from book one to book two as well as a good story, but it's just like complex, interesting characters.

Speaker 2: 27:36

Well, they need to be invested.

Speaker 2: 27:38

That's the thing, Like your readers when you're writing a series. This is my personal view. When you're writing a series, you want your readers to be invested. Henley has done some. If she was my friend, I'd be like what is wrong with you? I remember when she does something questionable in the first book, my brother calls me up. He was like I was worried for her. I was worried for her. Yeah. Then he's like I gotta go because I need to carry on reading and I'm like, well, that's the response you want, that's the response you want, because you also want, like um, do you ever watch goggle box on tv?

Speaker 1: 28:13

yes, so the thing I always go for is, like you know, goggle box. My thing with tv is always I want to split the goggle box sofa. I know I've made a good episode of tv if different people say different things and like if, like, people are arguing with their siblings going, I can't believe it. I'm like that's good drama yeah that's what you want.

Speaker 1: 28:32

That's what you want in the books as well. You want people to. You want your brother to be calling you up, go what you done and shouting at the characters, or loving them. Yeah, you want that response.

Speaker 2: 28:41

I thought I'd done something. I was like what have I forgotten? So it's like I can't believe she did that. I'm like who, who? But when they're talking to them, about talking about them like they're a real, like a real person, yeah, yeah, that's the quote from ever. Yeah, that is the best and it is cool, it will happen to you. When the readers get in touch with you and they're like oh, they did this and they did that, and why are they still together? I get that a lot with Penny and Rob. Why are they still together? I'm like she's in it. What can I say? Anyway, it gives you drama.

Speaker 1: 29:14

No, completely, and I think the thing I saw when I went to Harrogate that time last year was how engaged the kind of crime community of readers are with the writers and the books. I'd never been to a book festival before in my life, so I was really surprised that one. There's that access but also just that kind of passion on both sides.

Speaker 2: 29:35

Then you find it, like I, interesting that you know when you're in your other world so you're in your tv world and I'm in my legal world I had no, even though I I read, like I read a lot, but I still had no awareness that there was this. I say this massive festival world out there and how important it was. I mean, I think I was aware of, like the read, I say the massive ones, like hey, but maybe just like in passing, like I'm just aware of it in passing, but it's only when you're in it. And then obviously you start writing and you're, you got your book out and then you realize, oh my god, there are all these festivals and they are important. And then you realise how, when you do go, how invested the readers are and how far they'll go. It's not just about reading your books, it's about being in your presence also.

Speaker 1: 30:26

Yeah, no, I just thought it was amazing, like I think I was on the platform, like changing from Leeds to Harrogate, and I saw a writer I could tell because she had a kind of a quirkus bag and this. This man came up to her and he had this bag of books, like massive bag of books, yeah, and then she just started chatting like and she knew him from some other festival and I thought, oh okay, it's right. I thought it was. It's brilliant. It's like weird but brilliant, so yeah it's weird and it's yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:53

So when it first happens and someone taps you on the shoulder for the first time and like, oh, are you remy cone? You'd be like do I owe you money? It's like you realize. Oh, they read your book and they want to talk to you about that. But what they just? Well, they just want a picture. They just want to sign you, to sign their book.

Speaker 1: 31:13

It's cool yeah, no, I think so. Well, that's the thing. Is that you want, even though it's quite a solitary thing, the fact that you know a reader is going to read it and invest and they're going to spend money on it. You know they're invested in it. I don't know, it's quite it's also. I think it's both like a privilege and a responsibility yeah, did it.

Speaker 2: 31:32

I'm trying to find the right way to pull it. Was it an adjustment, having to write on your own when you're used to being, I say, part of a larger group in terms of the tv production, because it's a complete opposite end, because you're on your own, your laptop, whatever.

Speaker 1: 31:50

Do you know what the weird thing is like? I would say, you know, when you're kind of introvert, extrovert split, I'm a sociable introvert, so I like people, I'm fine in a group and I find people interesting and I like company, but I also like my own head writing. And then also, you know, if you're in production you're never alone because they're like about 50 people. You know they're about 50 people in the room at any one time. So I think I think I like both do you come from a creative family?

Speaker 2: 32:30

well, was anyone surprised when your sister, you and your sister were doing your, your dramas?

Speaker 1: 32:35

um, not really, because I think my, my, my kind of, my parents, my mum, always have been very do whatever works for you, you know very encouraging of that stuff. Like you know, as a child sometimes I was in my head for a bit, but I was also quite sociable and I was just sort of yeah, just kind of yeah, that's her, let her you know, let her go on. I was just sort of yeah, just kind of yeah, that's her, let her, you know, let her go on. I've never kind of had any kind of weight of expectation in terms of like, when I went into TV, I don't know, one was sort of telling me that I should go and be a lawyer or or you know something more practical, and my sister did law for a bit and she hated it and so she kind of changed um, but no, but I don't have it.

Speaker 1: 33:17

I don't come from a family of tv producers and writers. So I think what I found really interesting and you might find the same I just think these professions, they feel like there's some kind of weird mystical. No one knows what happens behind closed doors, no one knows how, no one knows how to get into them, no one knows how to navigate them. And in tv I ran. When I worked in development. I ran an intern program because I think it's so hard. It's so hard to get into tv. And then everyone's like oh, why does everyone in tv look the same?

Speaker 1: 33:47

I was like, well, if you're paying people so badly, only people that are living at home, not paying rent, like people, can't afford to do those jobs no I mean, or people that know they exist, because no one's telling them they exist, and it's just like how do you demystify these professions so more people who would really be good at them actually think they're an option for them? I don't know, I don't know the answer to that but no, but the pay thing.

Speaker 2: 34:12

I would say it's not even like with the creative industries as well, because they'll always say, well, now that you know people can't. I say people can't afford to be a solicitor or be a barrister, well, criminal solicitor, because, especially if you're doing legal aid work, because the pay is so, it's so ridiculously low. Like I remember how much I was being paid, imagine what when I qualified, and that was back in 2006, and fast forward to now 2025, and newly qualified solicitors are being paid less than what I started on.

Speaker 2: 34:47

Really, 19 years, yeah 19 years ago, even with inflation, and I say I started. I started on I think it was 27 and a half thousand as a newly qualified solicitor in 2006, and I remember. The crazy thing is I remember, um, the woman I'd worked for, I'd done a secondment with, when I told her yeah, I've gotten this job, this is the firm I'm going to. There's so so much they're paying. She goes oh well, that's not right that they're paying you that much. I'm like what are you talking about? I was like what are you talking about?

Speaker 1: 35:22

Like I just thought they were paying me too much.

Speaker 2: 35:25

And then you get solicited newly qualified, working you know, going into criminal law, being paid less than that, which is crazy no, it's crazy, it's.

Speaker 1: 35:33

I mean criminal laws. Yes, I mean, as I've said, like we've all watched too much tv where criminal lawyers are like looking around. They shouldn't really flash with these. I wish yeah, you know they might watch too much, like OJ Simpson case, like, yeah, that's, that's too much suits.

Speaker 2: 35:46

I wanted to dress like Jessica, yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:48

I mean like Jessica's got some great shoes. You know she really does great suits, great shoes.

Speaker 2: 35:55

But unfortunately no, and you said it goes to law the creative industries. So, yeah, people need people. What they need to see, what's behind the curtain.

Speaker 1: 36:07

Yeah, I need to know how to get there then he said but also the the thing is, they need to also know that nobody's path is the same, because I think sometimes people think if I could just find out what happens behind the curtain, that exact same thing will happen to me.

Speaker 2: 36:21

And I have not spoken to two people with the same experience about becoming a writer or becoming a no tv producer or whatever yeah, and I was gonna say it's the same thing with writing, because I said I can, I can tell if I'm talking to someone and I'm not going to say spy and write, they're just a writer. But you can tell when they're asking the question. And the question is not necessarily about the craft but it's wanting to know what the the magic bullet is, what the secret sauce is to getting an agent and getting the deal. And I'm like there really isn't like my. My journey is not going to be the same as your journey, rennie, also my mates.

Speaker 2: 36:57

Everyone's journey is different. Everyone's route to getting in is different and I mean, I still maintain there are no overnight successes. Everyone, you see, will probably have two or three or maybe one, but they'll have a couple of books behind them, really, or they would have worked on that book for two, three, four years before they even got an agent to even look at it and then get their first rejection. So everyone's route is completely different?

Speaker 1: 37:25

No, completely, and so it's not helpful to compare yourself to other people around you, even though people can give you great, great advice.

Speaker 2: 37:33

Yeah, you know, say comparisons to thief of joy. It'll say it'll turn you mad if you spend all your day looking at I mean, oh god, you know, just looking at, I'll say, the bookseller emails that pop in your inbox every day. And then you pick up the observer. If they're still doing the observer, like in the new year, and they do, oh, the hottest under 30 or the debuts, these are the ones who are going to succeed for the year and you're not on that list. You're like what's the point? You have to? You have to avert your gaze.

Speaker 1: 38:03

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, definitely avert your gaze listeners.

Speaker 2: 38:07

It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. So, going to your book, innocent Guilt, who came to you? Did Leah come to you first, or was it the story or was it the scene? No, there's three questions in there and I'm not supposed to do that. My legal otherwise. But was it so? Was it the character or was it the story? Or was it that scene of the woman, um, holding the baseball bat? I can't speak holding the baseball bat, but drenched in blood?

Speaker 1: 38:51

so I think, well, one step before that was, I had this prologue which I, like you'll see, I, held on to for dear life, like held on to. I thought it was magic. And then my sister my sister read the book and she's like you've got three openings, it's gotta go. I was like what are you talking about? And basically I had this thing in my head which was these um came out and basically I had this thing in my head which was these um, someone just saying will I, will, I, will, I on a loop, and it was someone in like a really dark place questioning whether they were going to do something awful, you know, like your kind of your worst kind of nightmare, but sort of wondering if they were capable of doing something terrible and wanting to do it. And that was what was in my mind. So I had a scene that was all about that.

Speaker 1: 39:35

And then I had the woman who kind of turns up drenched in blood you don't know whether the blood's hers, you don't know whether she's the victim or the perpetrator and she just walks in and she's mute, and I start and I that was like that came to me soon after and then, because she was mute, I wasn't sure what she was going to say when she opened her mouth. Do you know what I mean? So I had to kind of really think my way into that and what her story was. And then the character Leah kind of came to me in a very bald form but she didn't kind of come alive for ages. So in the book because you've got the kind of her and then you've got Odie, the secondary character, leah's bits are written in the first person and Odie's in the third person. And I think I wrote half the book with Leah in the third person and then I was like I'm not getting her, it's not working. So then I went back to the start and I put her in the first person. Then we just gelled.

Speaker 2: 40:31

Did you find that easy to do? Because I always and I need to just change my whole thinking about the voices, because I always say think like writing in the first person scares me. Also, I don't think I can maintain it for a whole book. Even I'm gonna try with a book I plan to write, I'm gonna try, but I can always be. I can maintain it for maybe a short story, but the thought of a whole novel just scares me. Did you find that transition easy to do once you decided that had to be done?

Speaker 1: 40:59

Well, I wouldn't say it was easy, but the moment I started she came alive in my mind. I had two options. Someone said to me why don't you try putting her into the present tense? And that didn't work for me at all. It didn't make the scenes come alive anymore. And then, when I went to the first person, I just got to know her better and because she's my main character and I wanted to kind of I want to go on a journey with her for, you know, for a while, yeah, that just really helped. So, even though it was hard at the beginning, once I got used to her voice I was like, yeah, leah wouldn't say that, leah wouldn't do that. You know, that't do that. You know that wouldn't happen, you know. And she was like almost fighting back against some of the decisions I'd made, which was helpful.

Speaker 2: 41:39

It's nice when they do that. It's funny as well. It's also unexpected. I remember I felt like at one point I had Henley sitting in a kitchen out of pure stubbornness, like I don't know. It's literally like saying to me I don't know. It's literally like saying to me I don't know why you think I would do that. I would not do that Until you get your act together. I'm saying it, that's literally how it felt and I was like let me just move you.

Speaker 1: 42:09

Let me just move you and it worked. That's brilliant. I think that's why sometimes you know when you're writing and you've just got snatch time that can be. I think it's really hard. I just feel I'm just getting words down, but like when you can actually sort of sit with it for a bit, that's when you know what you're talking about. It feels like it's happening because she won't move and you're like, oh, why is she not moving? And then is your.

Speaker 2: 42:28

I had to move she made me move, like well, let me just move to my desk and I'll come back. Like when you have a sort yourself out and I'll come back yeah, go for it, come back.

Speaker 1: 42:36

Okay, right, we're moving, we're not in the kitchen. Yeah, that's brilliant that's really good.

Speaker 2: 42:41

So, remy, now that you're in, I say you're in the publishing industry. What has surprised you about it so far?

Speaker 1: 42:50

oh my gosh. Um, I think and maybe this is just crime I think I was really surprised by how friendly and generous all the writers are, like I genuinely feel everyone's just been really lovely. And I'm not saying people aren't lovely in TV, that's not true but I think TV has more of an edge as an industry. Maybe publishing does too. I have no idea because I haven't been in it for that long, but I think just the generosity of other writers with their time, with their advice, um, just the fact I just kind of watching them support each other, you know. So it's almost like people have running mates. Like you know, you write alone, but I was talking to a writer who'd written I know 15, 16 books, and they were talking about someone else who started at the same time, as if they'd been in the same class at school and sort of went up together up through school and yeah, I think that's been the biggest surprise.

Speaker 1: 43:47

And then also because there's lots of it that overlaps with TV, like we have agents in TV, you know but I think for me it's been different being on the other side, you know, because it's it's I'm not normally as a producer, I'm not the person who's creating, in the same sense, in terms of putting the words on the page, I'm not an act or I'm not an actor whose face is on the poster, and I think it. I think getting used to the fact that it's your name on the book is something that I'm.

Speaker 1: 44:18

I'm struggling to get my head around.

Speaker 2: 44:19

If I'm being honest, it's hard because and it's only like now talking, like talking to you that I realize like how hard it is, because even you know two completely different industries. But even being a lawyer, it's not about me. It's only about me in the sense of when I'm doing, when I'm cross-examining someone and always say to the students, like jurors watch too much tv and they expect to show because that's what they're used to seeing. So the spotlight changes and it does become it. It shines on you for a little bit, but at the end of the day, your means to an end.

Speaker 2: 44:52

Oh yeah, I mean exactly, I'm a means to an end and it's not my name that's going to be on the indictment, it's going to be the defendant's name all through the indictment. I'm literally, I'm just a footnote, and for them being in a position where you are front and centre, that takes a lot of getting used to, and I think that's probably why people probably find have a difficulty immediately calling themselves a writer when someone asks them what they do, because then it's all it's all about you.

Speaker 1: 45:22

Maybe that is why I sort of struggle to answer that question. I think I think you've hit the nail on the head. Yes, exactly, it's gone from like you can have a lot of control in your career, but without being the name on the poster.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Yeah to suddenly, you know, and especially in crime, like the names are quite big, so it's just like okay, you're like, there is remy cone all over that exactly, whereas, like, if you look at some more, I don't if you call them literary novels or whatever, sometimes the name is a little squiggle in the corner, but not in crime books, it's like crime centre, it's shining, it's like if it's American, it's squiggly in, like letters. You can't get away from your name. So that I think is going to take me a while to get used to.

Speaker 2: 46:06

Did you ever think about writing under a pseudonym? Writing under a pseudonym yes, yeah, only because another author I've spoken to, who's a TV producer, kate Ruby. She writes obviously Kate Ruby's her pseudonym. She doesn't write under her, I'd say her professional name.

Speaker 1: 46:24

Because I think it allows you to have that, it allows you to have a separation, I guess. But I think I think with all these things it's really interesting because I think some people, like I, haven't been to many festivals, but it's interesting when you watch the panels. I think some people thrive in the spotlight more and some people look like they. It's the last place they possibly want to be, and then, and then there's someone in the middle who doesn't necessarily love the spotlight, but they know how to exist in it.

Speaker 1: 46:50

Do you know what I mean probably quite similar to you knowing how to like do your closing arguments and be confident, you learn how to manage it.

Speaker 2: 46:59

But I've had to trick myself into doing that, and I tricked myself into doing it from uni. I would just say, let's. I would tell myself it's just a snapshot in time, it's your 15 minutes, your half an hour, your hour, and then you're moving on and it's someone else's spotlight shifted on someone else and it's no longer about you. And that's how I had to trick myself into doing it, because I hate it. I don't want to be in front of, I don't want to be talking in front of people, I don't want anyone looking at me, but then you're right, then just sort of get it done yeah, yeah, and that's how.

Speaker 2: 47:29

That's how I've had to do it.

Speaker 1: 47:31

Yeah, no, I kind of kind of makes it. But I think the thing is and I don't know about whether, if you wrote, if you look at some of those writers like who wrote in the 80s like pre-social media and they, they it feels like they didn't really have to do that, they just wrote their books. I'm sure they didn't just write their books, but there wasn't the whole festival. Do you know what I mean? Like all the appearances, but I do.

Speaker 2: 47:56

Yeah, there wasn't, but I do feel like you would, I'm sure, like if you go back and do your research, like you'll always hear about oh so and so was like the bad boy of literature, so and so was this, and so I think there's always been that, maybe that that contingent of people, of writers, creatives, who do want, they do want the spotlight and they do want to be seen yeah, no, you're right.

Speaker 1: 48:20

Actually you're right because I do. I do remember those narratives, like from certain bunches of writers, yeah, but it feels now like everybody's sort of out there, everyone's a bad boy, everyone's a bad boy, everyone's a bad boy. Um, but yeah, no, I don't know it's, it's the industry is. Just. To me it's all still quite new and it's kind of fascinating.

Speaker 2: 48:39

It is something you think about when talking about social media, because you say, when you've come from an industry where it said it's not about you, you're.

Speaker 1: 48:47

You're not in a disrespectful way, but you know we're all in the background, we're just doing our thing and yeah, and now you have to be up front yeah, because I'm terrible with, like social media and stuff, because as a person, I don't use it, um, and I don't have to use it and I think, yeah, I think that whole, if you could just write books and put them out there, I think it's. I love talking about books and whatever, but I think if you didn't have to the social media parts, never, it's never going to be my favorite part of it never it's just not something that comes naturally to me at all.

Speaker 1: 49:20

Some people love that. It's not for me really no, I did a.

Speaker 2: 49:22

I did a subset, like randomly. I just did a subset live. Um, earlier today I thought let me just jump on it. I've never done one before. Let me just do a subset live. I'll just talk to myself for 10 minutes. I've got no problem doing that.

Speaker 2: 49:33

And then people, people came on. I was like, oh, there's people. And someone asked me, basically, should they have a following before they even self-publish their book? And I was like no, you don't. I said there's this thing going around that agents and publishers won't pick you up unless you have, like a large follower number on social media. And that is not true at all. Because I said, going, I think, back to myself, back when I self-published, so like in 2015,. That's like 10 years ago. I had social media. I had Twitter, but it was on private. I had Instagram, but it was on private. Did you say you self-published first or you've just, yeah, my very first book, I self-published it, and that was in 2015. And I always think I was saying, when I went on social on Twitter which must have been I don't know when Twitter came out, maybe it's like 2010 or something when I joined I only went on it to follow Prince, like I wasn't.

Speaker 1: 50:31

I was like you're quiet for a year, just like watching.

Speaker 2: 50:34

Yeah, I wanted to see Prince and then, you know, the years go by, prince was putting on the links to his secret concerts, which I never got to go to, so that was the only reason why I was on there, and then it wasn't until the Jigsaw man came out. So that's 2021, that I think I, maybe prior to that, prior to it being published, and then switched everything to public. But I don't, yeah, but it wasn't about. Oh, I need to get like a hundred thousand followers.

Speaker 1: 51:02

Did you grow it? Did you grow your followers kind of incrementally?

Speaker 2: 51:05

yeah, and I think it's just. It's just happened organically, it hasn't. It's just, I haven't done anything to be like I need to get 10,000 followers, so let me do this every single day. I just I just post stuff. There's no rhyme or reason to it, I just I just post stuff and if it grows, it grows. But I can say, you know, each book that comes out like it, the numbers go up. But I think that's just part and parcel of it, isn't it? If you're, if you're doing well, the more people find you.

Speaker 1: 51:33

I think people are invested in your books because, like they're way they come out one a year.

Speaker 2: 51:38

You want a year yeah, I've been on one a year no, go on.

Speaker 1: 51:44

No, I was gonna say. When I look at people like, say, val McDermott or Anne Cleaves or Lee Child with their 30, I'm like wow, 30 years.

Speaker 2: 51:50

Oh my god, I know, bless you. And I'm like, oh god, I'm like, I'm like four books in how old am I gonna be? 26?

Speaker 1: 52:01

26 to go. That's what I said.

Speaker 2: 52:04

26 ago, but also as well. I don't think anyone's following me on social media to see what I have for breakfast, because that is not the sort of content you can get. It's not about that. So, remy, let's talk about your book, innocent Guilt Also. What was it like? I know this is the proof copy. So you haven't no, you must have your final copy yet.

Speaker 1: 52:26

No, they've got. They're about to send them to me. I haven't received it yet. They sent an email saying they just arrived in the office.

Speaker 2: 52:33

Oh, that's going to be a moment. Yeah, I'm holding on to your book like it's my book, but I'm like, what was it like even when you got the proof?

Speaker 1: 52:42

Do you know that was so exciting Because I think I've always wanted so. When I started writing the book, I was like you know what I really want? I want to have? I want to have a book on, you know, like WH Smith's Heathrow. I was like I want to be able to go into WH Smith's Heathrow and take my book off the shelf and then, just before I got the proof you know what or maybe it was around like I went to the proof, I went, I went to the library. I love the library. I just think it's amazing that you can just get people can just read from libraries. And I looked at the crime section and I felt really emotional. I thought maybe one day I'll have a book in the crime section in the library do you know what it's such a?

Speaker 2: 53:17

and it's weird because you think I'm not gonna get all caught up in my feelings about seeing my book on the library shelf. But I went to a library and and it wasn't even my local one, I think I did an event there maybe it was East Ham and then I saw my book on the shelf. I'm like, oh my god, yeah, there's my book, because with the library it's, you know it's there for the community and people are there. They're, I say, renting it. You know they're loaning the books and then it'll go back and then someone else will take it out.

Speaker 1: 53:48

I know, I just thought I was just like quite overcome. I was like I don't know I have to wait to see my book in the library. But that will be a big moment for me because I just think libraries are amazing in terms of what they do. But when I got the proof it was really exciting. I was like oh my gosh, that looks like.

Speaker 2: 54:02

It looks like a real book, I mean you know, it's not the only one who says that. It's just in your head. You're like, of course it looks like a book, it is a book, but you're like, it's my words. You've just been looking at these words and also and I was like, oh, it's quite.

Speaker 1: 54:18

It kind of is quite weighty. I was like, who wrote that? It feels like a book? Um, yeah, so I thought it was really. I was really excited and actually I spoke to someone the other day that basically had given away all their proofs and said they didn't have one. I thought, but you want to keep, you want to have a copy of your own proof.

Speaker 2: 54:34

Yeah, I've kept copies of my proofs. Um, yeah, you have to, even if you just won, especially this like your first one. But I've got yeah, I've got copies of my proofs of all my books, like I want to give them. Oh, yeah, I want to give them all away. But there did come a point and I'm like I need there's too many books in my house get rid of someone else's.

Speaker 1: 54:56

Keep you proof yeah, give them.

Speaker 2: 54:59

They give you, give them to your parents or someone that they would love it. So, remy, would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about innocent guilt?

Speaker 1: 55:07

yes, um, so it starts as we talked about, that a woman covered in blood carrying a baseball bat just walks into a police station and she's completely mute. She won't say anything about where the blood came from, where she came from, and my lead character, leah Hutch, is there and she's assigned to her case. And then meanwhile in a nearby park, a local journalist gets a tip off about a dead body and she is kind of she tries, she's trying to link the dead body to the woman that walked into the police station. And then it transpires that that woman and Leah have history. They don't particularly like each other, so it becomes a sort of cat and mouse game between them to kind of find out what happens. It's kind of more kind of of spoiler alert. More murders take place and then also Leah's got, um, things happening with her path that are kind of coming to bear. So it's a story about primarily Leah, but the two, but the kind of two women, um, as they as they go through this case in parallel. But then almost together.

Speaker 2: 56:08

Okay, so I've got two questions that follow on from that. So first one is did you face any challenges in writing your book?

Speaker 1: 56:16

oh my gosh, so many, so many. I think I think it's interesting when you have, like, a main protagonist but also another very, very key character, like how you balance the story, um, kind of between the two of them, and I think as well, I just I hope that the kind of the sort of the twists and returns are really satisfying for the reader, because I think sometimes when you're writing I don't know whether you find this you can almost second guess whether people are one step ahead and I think that sometimes the reader, that's really satisfying.

Speaker 1: 56:48

Sometimes the reader, I want, I want to get there and then go, oh, I was right, and then some things I want to be really surprised by yeah, so it is. So, it's just that. It's that balance of it, um. So I think that, and then also just I think that just the challenge of just going back over it again and again, just trying to make it as good as you possibly can.

Speaker 2: 57:10

Okay. Next one is if you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters in Innocent Guilt, who would you choose, and why?

Speaker 1: 57:17

Oh, that's an interesting one. I think it would probably be Randall, who's her partner, because I think he's kind without being bland, and I also think that it's easy to feel that you know him because he's. I think he's kind without being bland and I also think that it's easy to feel that you know him because he's quite open. But I think there's a lot more going on under the surface. So I think as a character, he'd probably surprise me the most. Um, so yeah, I'd love to spend an afternoon with him. That I mean. Interestingly, I would never write him in the first person because I like having an air of mystery about him.

Speaker 2: 57:50

Oh, that's a good thing. Do you know, what I said this earlier to someone this morning was that whenever I've asked this question, I think there's only been one person so far who said they'd want to spend the afternoon with the main character. It's always someone else on the periphery they want to spend the afternoon with.

Speaker 1: 58:05

That's so interesting. Yeah, yeah, it is. I think it's because you spend so much time with your main character, whereas some of the others you don't spend as much time with them. So you're just like okay, yeah, I'd be interested in having a coffee with you, let's see what happens.

Speaker 2: 58:18

Yeah let's see what you got to say for yourself, randall. Yeah, yeah, let's see if you make book two, randall, let's see if you make book two. Oh my god, how far ahead are you in your series, like in your head, oh gosh.

Speaker 1: 58:33

I mean, I think, when, interestingly, when I pitched it for my publisher because I'm quite used to doing pitches I pitched in my head I love 90s thrillers, like you know, all those films from the 90s 80s, 90s, like kind of no way out, um, presumed all those, all those films, I love them.

Speaker 1: 58:50

And so my idea wass like kind of no Way Out, presumed, all those films, I love them. And so my idea was to have it kind of think of the series like a series of 90s thrillers. So each one is a thriller because even though she's a police officer, it's quite heightened, like my procedural. There's some flights of fancy in there so that each one feels like a slightly different thriller. So the first one is quite psychological. The second one currently, but I'm still writing, it isn't is a different, isn't? It feels slightly different, but hopefully it's just as thrilling.

Speaker 1: 59:19

And then in my head I've got different versions of thrillers. So I had a kind of five I don't know the seeds of five books. It might all change, but when I pitched it I was like, yeah, this one's, this and this. I have like a sort of small paragraph and I was like, okay, gotta write it now. Um, so, but I think it was more. It was a good exercise to know that there are different worlds you can go to and that there's enough my, there's enough mileage with the characters to keep going, you know, and actually, and also more importantly, going back to your point about wanting to hang out with Henley, that I want to hang out with her for several weeks I honestly feel that you need to be able to feel like and I ask the question about having a coffee I need to know can I spend the evening in the pub with you and not just get fed up with you and want to leave, exactly so even if you're like that, it's like, even if I don't like you, I want to be stimulated by you.

Speaker 1: 1:00:08

Yeah, like we have a good chat for, like you know, for an evening I don't like you. I want to be stimulated by you.

Speaker 2: 1:00:11

Yeah, like we have a good chat for, like you know, for an evening we don't have to be best mates, but can I chat with you and like maybe I might meet you again next week?

Speaker 1: 1:00:17

I need to feel that, yeah, one step at a time. One step at a time. One step at a time Exactly. I that's really important, because I think I think, when you, so when I, you know if I, when I read your book, I can tell that you have a care for your main character, and I think that's really important as a reader to kind of feel that that character really matters. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 1:00:43

and I think it's because I would say, when I saw, I said I I never saw, I didn't see her face. I saw, I said I never saw, I didn't see her face. I saw the outline, I saw like the silhouette of her and I saw her standing. She was standing on Lucian High Street and she was looking at Lucian Police Station and I knew she had to go in there. But I knew that I already knew there was a story to the reason why she hadn't been there for a while and that something could happen to her. And I think, because I was probably so invested in what had happened to her and what was making her so hesitant, I probably feel a little bit protective of her. Just do you know? Do you know what her face looks?

Speaker 1: 1:01:21

like now? Not really, no, neither do I, but to be honest, if I close my eyes, I don't know what my face looks like either it's true.

Speaker 1: 1:01:37

It's hard to imagine that when I'm looking at myself when you, when you go, when you switch off the camera, close your eyes and try and think about exactly what you look like and I guarantee you don't know what I did. I will try it. I will try it. I don't know what she looks like and I think, um, that's the and I I do to a degree, but I don't exactly, and I quite like that, and so I think it would be very weird if someone, if your show, if your book ever got made, who she'd be yeah, and I think probably in that same vein.

Speaker 2: 1:02:13

It's like when I do think of her like I can, probably I could. It's probably why I probably changed the actresses who I'd like to play her, because I'm not committed to what she looks like, because I know the silhouette of her yeah, I have the silhouette as well yeah, I know how tall she is, like I know her body, I know all of that and even like the other um the other characters in the books.

Speaker 2: 1:02:35

So even with Stanford and Eastwood, I know them but I couldn't tell you, like I know Eastwood is blonde, but I couldn't tell you exactly yeah, I know, I know what the others are quite more like.

Speaker 1: 1:02:45

Have you ever read um A Little Life? No, okay. So basically, I mean it's very traumatic. It's a. It's a mean, it's very traumatic. It's a brilliant book, but it's very traumatic. Anyway, her main character. The only thing she ever tells you about him don't quote me on this, but I think this is right is that he's got indeterminate ethnicity, so you can never tell he's beautiful and she describes his hands and he's got some kind of disability or kind of like he's got. He's because he had an accident, but apart from that, she never describes his features, she never goes into any detail about him and you just have this to play with all the way through the book and he is the person that you're walking. You're like it's 800 pages long, so you are walking through seven, eight hundred pages with this guy and that's all you really know about what he looks like but I think that's better, though.

Speaker 2: 1:03:32

I think it's better for the reader because then the reader can they'll, the reader will fill in the gaps for themselves, which is always interesting when they will, and they will do this when they will tag you in on their who they think your characters look like. Yes, sometimes it's happened. I'm like no, no, no, no, no, that is not remota. I don don't know who do you think that is not Remuta? And other times I'm like yeah, yeah, it could work, that could work.

Speaker 1: 1:03:58

Yeah, that's hilarious. I think that's lovely that they I don't know, they've got their own ideas. You might have created those characters, but they've got their own ideas.

Speaker 2: 1:04:12

Honestly, they have their own ideas. Um, it's interesting, I think I'm even I'm even trying to think with the jigsaw man, with olivier. He's, like I say, the main. He's not really the main killer, but he's the. He's the one. He's a killer that everyone likes. And I don't even have like a clear. I know what his eyes are like. But my whole thing, yeah, my though, when I was creating him, was that I need him to be charming. So the whole challenge for me was how to create charm on the page. I don't think it's an easy thing to do.

Speaker 1: 1:04:41

Or not even to describe. Well, I think it's a hard thing in life. I always think people in life that describe themselves as charming rarely are charming Like actually charming people don't go.

Speaker 2: 1:04:53

oh, I'm so charming no, it's for someone else to say oh my god, they're so charming, you're like, exactly because they're there's something about them exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:05:00

They're quite alluring. The thing I always, I always visualize often well, not with Leah, but with everybody else is their nose. Yeah, so I don't always fully see their eyes, but I see their nose. Like I know I've got very clear idea Randall's nose and then her um DCI Kenny O'Sullivan.

Speaker 2: 1:05:18

He's got this like small button nose that's too small for his face and I just find that I don't know kind of fixate on that it's so, but I think it's so interesting how writers see or how they visualize their own characters when they're writing them, because it's just so, not what anyone else will be thinking, but you leave space for it, don't you?

Speaker 1: 1:05:40

Because I think that's why, for me personally, I don't really listen to audiobooks, unless it's nonfiction, because with fiction I don't want a barrier between me and the writer's words. I like my imagination to fill in the gaps, whereas if I hear a voice already, that fills in the gaps for me. So it's like a direct experience.

Speaker 2: 1:06:00

And also, I mean have you listened to the audio book? No, not yet.

Speaker 1: 1:06:07

Are you going to? We're kind of still in the process of finalizing it, but, um, I don't know if I will.

Speaker 2: 1:06:13

I don't know, no, because I, probably, I know, I, probably, I don't know, I don't know your only reason why I think like well, I'm not going to tell you to do it, is that it does make you. I don't even say view the book. Well, you'll hear something else in the, in your words, when you hear someone else read your word is that a good thing?

Speaker 2: 1:06:32

do you think? I think? I think it's a good thing. Yeah, I think it's a good thing because even when and it only happened when I went to watch the recording of the kill list and I was in the studio and you know the actress is, she's reading the book and then obviously she had to pause at some point and you're thinking, oh, maybe I used two. I should have used two words instead of using like six yeah, so there are things like they're little things like that, but I think it's interesting when you're writing.

Speaker 1: 1:07:03

So when I read back, I often mumble to myself like a mad woman, and so I can hear the rhythm of the words. Do you? Do you read aloud when you're reading back or not?

Speaker 2: 1:07:13

no yeah I don't, yeah, no, I no, I don't, I don't think, no, I just, with that first draft, I just write, I just need to just get it. However the words come out, I just need to get it out, and then, when I'm editing now, I think this has just become, it's just become, I say, practice, like the more you do, the more you do.

Speaker 1: 1:07:34

So now, yeah, do you have a cycle like what? How long does it take you to write a first draft, or does it?

Speaker 2: 1:07:39

change. It changed. But I we worked it out, me, my friend worked it out um, because I was trying to work. I was like, because I felt like I worked, I wrote book four quite quickly and I did. I think I wrote book four in. I think I properly started it around February and I'd finished it in July, end of July.

Speaker 1: 1:08:01

Wow, completely finished or just first draft?

Speaker 2: 1:08:05

First and second draft Because I wrote the first, I'd wrote the first I did. For some reason I wrote that book very, very quickly. So how long did the first draft take you first? Draft take you the first draft must have taken me. It must have taken me maybe three, four months, okay, and then a month, and I don't yeah, and then yeah, and then I did, then I did my, my own, my own edits, and then I do my, my second draft. I don't know why something happened and I know I wrote that draft.

Speaker 1: 1:08:33

I wrote that draft quickly maybe you just aren't completely connected to the story.

Speaker 2: 1:08:38

I don't know no, because it took me a while to get. It took me a while to get into the story and then I knew that my, my villain wasn't. It wasn't, it wasn't villain enough. That's not even the correct language to you, I'm sorry. You mean, though, yeah, not my villain, my villain wasn't villaining. So when I wrote that, when I wrote that first draft, it always felt like and I changed how I write because I think with that one maybe it's a little bit longer, maybe it's about four, maybe it's about four or five months it took me to write that first draft, but I remember that I finished writing it before I started doing this, to read the second draft, before I'd written act three. I didn't write act three because I was like you know what?

Speaker 1: 1:09:27

yeah, I feel like I've run out of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's no, it's interesting. I mean, did you share it with your agent before, after your first draft, like, or you didn't?

Speaker 2: 1:09:35

no, he doesn't see my first draft. No one sees it until that second draft. Then they see it. I don't show anyone that first draft because I didn't, because to me the first, I thought it's just for me, but with that, with that particular book, with the shadow card, but but I knew something wasn't working. I think it's probably why I was able to do it. In an odd way I was able to do it quickly because something wasn't working for me. So I had to go back and try and make it work. And then I found a way to make my villain, villainy, villainous. Yeah, villainous. I literally. I had a note. I had a note on my.

Speaker 1: 1:10:06

It was on my computer and I had it in my notebook and all it said was you need a dark vader like that was my motivation but I think that's the thing, like in terms of turning off your editorial mind because you, because you know that, but you've got to almost switch that off, get to the end or two-thirds of the way through, yeah, and go back and address it, as opposed to you could like, agonize over it day in, day out and then you'd never get to the end of the story, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:10:31

But the two thirds work for some reason. But the two thirds I'm like, oh, this is. I said you're constantly learning, because I wouldn't have done that with the first three books. There's no way I would have written just two thirds of the book and then start the second draft. But with this one I thought, no, this, this works, because now I know exactly that's now. I'm starting on the second drop. I know exactly what's going on, who needs to be there, who's not going to be there, and that's exactly. You know. It's only the final third.

Speaker 1: 1:10:58

The final third can just roll a bit smoother yeah, because you know, and you, sometimes I forget things I've written, and so actually that, yeah, yeah, I like that yeah, well, that won't change, especially when someone's asking you about book one and you're writing book six and you're like I ain't got this.

Speaker 2: 1:11:13

I don't know what Leah was doing on Thursday, right, remy your last final set of questions, even though you did actually answer this one. Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Speaker 1: 1:11:27

oh yeah, so I'm a sociable introvert so I like people, but I get my energy from being by myself okay, so what challenge or experience and I would say good or bad in your life shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 1:11:44

I think, probably different for as a child and adult, but I'd say as an adult. Like a few years ago, like a really good friend of mine died and I think that was really and I was really really grateful that I'd seen him not long before, and I think that just really made me think about how I prioritise my time in terms of, you know, making sure that you spend a lot of time with people that you care about life.

Speaker 2: 1:12:11

Let's say life is unsurprisingly short. Yeah, it can take you by surprise, um, okay. So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 1:12:26

I think nothing lasts forever. I think sometimes, like when you're sort of starting out, especially working, you think, oh gosh, this must be the job I'm going to do forever and actually it's not 1952, like people have lots of different careers and yeah, and so you can just just relax. You know, circumstances can change for good and for bad and I think that's the thing, just sort of, yeah, go with it, something still comes out of different things you're like getting it.

Speaker 2: 1:12:52

I know I was laughing about the 1952 thing, but it's so true because I think when you're younger you think, oh, my god, this is like, this is, this is my job, this is my job for life. Yeah, this is it. I can't deviate from that, even if I do want to do pottery, make my own ashtrays and sell it down the market, like I can't do that. But then something you realize I don't know, you get into your 30s and then you get into your 40s. You're like, no, no, not every Sunday you need to have the Sunday scaries, like they'll come a point when they don't exist because you're doing something you enjoy, you're doing exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:13:24

So I think, I think definitely that okay um, oh, this is my new one.

Speaker 2: 1:13:29

What is? What do you think is your non-writing tip for writers?

Speaker 1: 1:13:34

I'm just trying to think what that means it can mean anything you want it to mean.

Speaker 1: 1:13:39

Okay, great, I'll get with that, I think, have some kind of physical activity. I think your brain works a lot better if you're not one, if you're not sitting down all day, but also if you do something where the focus isn't on what's going on in your mind. So I just think, yeah, you know you may not like going to the gym or doing exercise, but I just think doing something that involves your body, not your mind, would be my top tip yeah, I, I'm firmly.

Speaker 2: 1:14:08

You need to move. Yeah, not because it's not healthy just to sit there all day anyway, but you need to move because I mean you know you take yourself out of your environment or you know your usual environment and you're somewhere else and you know it's just seeing different things and then something that might just spark something new, exactly, I think sometimes you just need to switch off your brain and then it works in a different way.

Speaker 1: 1:14:31

Yeah, when you're actively trying to solve a problem, it doesn't always. Doesn't always often work.

Speaker 2: 1:14:37

Sometimes no, I, I like I completely understand it because I think, even with even with the last, but I was trying to make something work and I couldn't make it work. It was like the motivation for why a character did someone. I was like I can't, I don't, I don't know why, like I just don't know why, and I did my usual going for a walk in the morning and it was literally on my way home. I'm like, yeah, like 25 meters from my front door, and I was like, and I saw something on a poster and I was like, oh, that's it that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:15:08

But you know when, like sometimes you know you somewhat, I've seen like interviews with writers and they go, how long does this book take you? And they're like, oh, 25 years. I was like did it. But what they mean is it's been in their minds, yeah, and they've sorted like being. I remember like Shonda Rhimes, I think it was was talking about how she'd written a script for I don't know, it was either Scandal or Grey's Anatomy very quickly, because actually she'd been thinking about it for a year. So when she sat down to write it, it just she wrote it like in a week or something because she just knew exactly what she was writing, but she'd wasn't coming to it cold.

Speaker 2: 1:15:40

It had been percolating in quite a lot of detail for a long time you know now that you say I think that's probably why I did write book four, probably quicker than my other books I do, because there was a period of time I kept thinking I need to start writing this book. I need to start writing this book, otherwise I'm not going to deliver this book when it's supposed to be delivered. But looking back, like on my nose, I think I'd actually started planning the book way back in like 2022. Yeah, yeah, and I had to have done that because I remember I would have written an outline for my, for my agent. You know when we're doing the next book deal and stuff. So it's already been there percolating. I already know what's going to happen with the characters and although there was one suggestion from my editor and I was like, no, I am not doing that.

Speaker 1: 1:16:31

No, did you do it no, yeah, no, I.

Speaker 2: 1:16:35

I was like no, no, I said I will, I will, I'll reach the middle ground in the middle ground there and I'm prepared to go in the middle ground, like on the grass verge. But no, I'm not doing what you ask me to do. Every time she mentions it, she's like you're gonna do it. I'm like no, I'm staying on the verge, I'm staying, I will stay on the verge. So finally, remy, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?

Speaker 1: 1:16:58

we've got to find you somewhere you can find me on Instagram, and it's at Remy Cone writer.

Speaker 2: 1:17:08

So my name R-E-M-i-k-o-n-e writer and we will find you there. So that just leaves me, remy cone, to say thank you so much for being part of the conversation thank you, it's been a lovely conversation thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with nadine matheson.

Speaker 2: 1:17:25

I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadimaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.