Coffee Break with Rod Reynolds: Shatter Creek

In this episode of "Coffee Break" Rod Reynolds joins me to talk about the return of Detective Casey Wray in his thrilling new novel "Shatter Creek". 

Shatter Creek plunges readers into the chaos of a brazen triple homicide that shatters the relative calm of a Long Island town. When two victims are gunned down in broad daylight, police scramble to determine if they're facing a mass shooting. The discovery of a third body initially simplifies the case, pointing to a domestic dispute with an obvious suspect, but Casey's instincts tell her something's off.

Whether you're continuing the journey from "Black Reed Bay" or discovering Casey Wray for the first time, this novel stands as compelling evidence of why Reynolds continues to be one of crime fiction's most refreshing voices.

Shatter Creek

Hampstead County Police Department is embroiled in scandal after corruption at the top of the force was exposed. Cleared of involvement and returned to active duty, Detective Sergeant Casey Wray nonetheless finds herself at a crossroads when it becomes clear not everyone believes she’s innocent.
 
CORRUPTION

Partnered with rookie Billy Drocker, Casey works a shocking daytime double-homicide in downtown Rockport with the two victims seemingly unknown to one another. And when a third victim is gunned down on her doorstep shortly after, it appears an abusive ex-boyfriend holds the key to the killings.
 
MURDER

With powerful figures demanding answers, Casey and Billy search for the suspect, fearing he’s on a murderous rampage. But when a key witness goes missing, and new evidence just won’t fit, the case begins to unravel.
 
DANGER
 
With her career in jeopardy, Casey makes a shattering discovery that threatens to expose the true darkness at the heart of the murders… with a killer still on the loose…
 
For fans of Mare of Easttown, Tana French, Michael Connelly and James Lee Burke

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to the Coffee Break
• 1:43 Shatter Creek: The New Casey Ray Novel
• 5:51 Writing Process and Character Development
• 10:56 Setting Books in America vs London
• 16:15 Hitting the Wall and Overcoming Challenges
• 22:45 Future Projects and Publishing Journey
• 29:58 Book Recommendations and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Conversation Coffee Break with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you're enjoying your week. Now, if you're wondering what Coffee Breaks is all about and this is your first time listening to the Coffee Break let me explain. The Coffee Break is a brand new segment of the Conversation podcast, which will officially launch in September, but I thought, for the rest of season three, that I will drop in a few sample coffee breaks Now.

Speaker 1: 0:29

Coffee breaks are short interviews with authors about their new books. The first coffee break featured author Helen Monk-Tacker talking about her new book, the Marriage Rule, and today I'm taking a coffee break with author Rod Reynolds. Rod Reynolds is the author of the Charlie Yates series. His 2015 debut, the Dark Inside, was long listed for the CWA New Blood Dagger, and this was followed by Black Knight Falling and Cold Desert Sky. He then wrote a standalone called Blood Red City and he now has a new series featuring Detective Casey Ray. The first book in the series was called Black Reed Bay and the second book in the series, which is out today, is called Shatter Creek. Now, at this point of the intro, I would usually say to you sit back or go for a walk, but instead grab a cup of coffee or tea and enjoy your break. Rod Reynolds, welcome to the Conversation Coffee Break.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:29

Right, my first question. I'm going to hold up your book because people can see this is the proof coffee that I've got, and you've got yours too. So can you tell the listeners of the Conversation Coffee Break about your new book, shatter Creek?

Speaker 2: 1:43

Yeah, sure. So Shatter Creek is the second book in the Detective Casey Ray series. So it's set on Long Island in New York in the States, and it follows on immediately from the events of Black Creek Bay, which is the first book in the series. So in that, without giving too much detail as a way of the plot, essentially Casey at the end of the book is left facing a department that's kind of riddled with corruption. She's lost some really important people to her and she's kind of unsure about herself and her future in the department and where she's going to go. But before she has any time to think about that she's thrown into a double homicide investigation, a really kind of brazen shooting. Two people are killed in broad daylight in the middle of town and initially the police are kind of thinking is this a mass shooting? Is it kind of going that way?

Speaker 2: 2:30

And Casey the book opens with Casey kind of in that kind of crazy situation where they're trying to work out you know how many people are shooting, who's been shot, why they're shooting, and then it's just that kind of chaos From there. A third body turns up shortly after and suddenly it turns the case on its head. So it looks like. What they're dealing with is a kind of domestic dispute here and all signs kind of point to one person. But as the case develops, it's kind of Casey who kind of keeps picking at those loose ends and there's there's a key witness that disappears and some evidence that just doesn't fit, and so Casey very quickly comes to realise that there's a lot more going on here than she realizes okay, well, I've got two questions that aren't actually on our list.

Speaker 1: 3:11

I'm sorry, but the prep questions.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Come on now.

Speaker 1: 3:15

I know I gave you all the prep questions, but this question because we both write series and I was just wondering how easy is it for you to return back to your characters and back to their world.

Speaker 2: 3:28

Do you know what?

Speaker 2: 3:29

It's a double-edged sword and you'll know this as well, in that when you come to a new series or a standalone, obviously you're creating a world, so there's no rules really to work by, and that has its own challenges, but it also brings opportunities, whereas, obviously, coming back to a series, you've got established characters and that has its own challenges, but it's also brings opportunities, whereas, obviously, coming back to a series, you've got established characters and I mean, you know, going beyond the kind of basics of when they were born, whether they've got a cat, all that kind of stuff just having to work within the constraints of their personality and their relationships with people around them, and obviously the story as it's, as it's been created, that is tricky, I would say.

Speaker 2: 4:03

So this is the second series I've written. I'd say, on balance, I probably prefer, um, writing in an established universe, because it's it's nice to have that kind of world partially built, because you're never too constrained as much as I'm moaning about in the first part of the answer. You've still got the opportunity to expand that world, to change how people relate to other people, to bring in new characters. So, um, yeah, I would say probably I do like writing within a series as much as I enjoy that initial kind of flash of inspiration and creating a new series of new character.

Speaker 1: 4:36

I'm writing a standalone next and I've been planning it and, honestly, for the first like day I was like I have no idea how to write a book. I have no idea how to tell a story because I was so used to my world with Haley I'm just used to it and then I was like what are characters?

Speaker 2: 4:55

but are you finding a groove now?

Speaker 1: 5:00

yeah, I had to. I think I kind of had to like get out of my head and just remind myself you're just this is it's still a you know, still in the crime world, you're still writing a thriller, there's still murder. It's like the rules. Some of the rules haven't changed. So once I like had a word with myself, I got into the group, but it took a while oh, honestly, there's days when I look at I don't know which way up the keyboard's supposed to.

Speaker 2: 5:24

It's literally you know, but, as you say, you kind of get past that and I think probably what you know, similar to what you did. You remind yourself I've done this before. You can do this.

Speaker 1: 5:33

Yeah, I've done it several times. You just need to put your finger out, I can write a book, so Rod what came to you first.

Speaker 2: 5:46

Was it the character, a specific scene, the overall premise or something completely different? Obviously, because it's the second book in the series, it came from the first one. The first book was inspired by a real life series of killings. It's become a lot more famous now. This set of killings is called the Long Island Serial Killer. There's a documentary on Netflix about it now and actually since I wrote the first book, they've subsequently found the real-life killer.

Speaker 1: 6:06

So that's why it's been in the news a lot more.

Speaker 2: 6:07

Yeah, they did Like all these killers you imagine, these kind of masterminds and he turned out to be a complete idiot who just got away with it through the usual combination of kind of incompetence and kind of lack of interest, because a lot of the victims were sex workers. There was kind of police, just utter lack of care. But so the second book obviously you're building on that established character and the idea came to me for this particular book, for the plot anyway came from wanting to set up what looked like a very kind of structured why done it? That then becomes in the middle. You realise actually it's not, it's a whodunit and kind of turning that on its head halfway through. So it was almost a test to myself. I always like to try and do something different with each book, whether that's in terms of perspective or characterization or or plot, and that was kind of where I came to with this one, where I wanted to try and do something different.

Speaker 1: 6:59

I like. You know what? That's first time I've heard of like a why done it? I like that. No, but it's kind of good. It's a nice way to, um like think about your own books also.

Speaker 2: 7:09

Yeah, yeah, I guess yeah, because there's there's a different challenge there, right it's. In some ways it's a lot easier to write who done it, because you've got that built in mystery to keep it going when it's why done it. You've got to build motivation and things like that, and that was quite tricky to sustain that over the first part. And then obviously you turn on its head and you bring that midpoint kind of twist and suddenly the book's got a whole new energy, which I mean. So I'm getting into one of the questions you've got for later, but it kind of repels you into that second half as a writer, which you know, I don't know about you, but I find the middle part is always the trickiest yeah, when?

Speaker 1: 7:39

because? Is that around? No, that's not that 20,000 mark, is it? It's probably around. We're playing so many words. You work, to be honest, but I think the trick is it's it's like you're asking. So, actually, am I actually on the right course? Is this going the way because I plan? Is it going the way I planned it to go? And sometimes it doesn't, and it's then kind of like trusting the writing to follow through. Yeah, in a different route yeah, absolutely, absolutely okay, so which character surprised you the most whilst writing shatter creek?

Speaker 2: 8:12

um, so this is a little bit of a spoiler, but I I had an idea quite early in the writing that I wanted to don't laugh at me giving away spoilers on my own book.

Speaker 2: 8:21

Um, I had the idea that I wanted to bring in, so I wrote a standalone before this series set in London my only book set in London, yeah, and I was quite fond of the characters from there, but I could never really find a way to bring them back into another book.

Speaker 2: 8:33

So I had the idea to bring a couple of those characters into this story and originally they were just going to be like a cameo, just to kind of nod to the readers that have been with me sort of from back in the day. But actually very quickly it became obvious that I could build them into a story in quite a big way and quite a natural way. So that was a lot of fun, bringing in characters from a completely different universe that had no connection to this story initially and using them in this perspective. And also because they were sort of anti-hero characters, you could bring them into this without the the my detective, or indeed the readers that are new to this hadn't read that book, knowing which side of the line they're on, so that was quite fun to play with. Are they good guys? They're bad guys, are they?

Speaker 1: 9:15

you know what they're here to do so did you feel a bit proud of yourself, like I did it.

Speaker 2: 9:19

I got them back, honestly it's probably the same with you. Like I'm not sure if pride comes into it anymore. It's just like scratching that itch with writing. Do you know what I mean? It's like yeah thank god, the relief of like. I've been meaning to them, trying to do that for a long time and I've done it. Thank god, right, I can move on something else now.

Speaker 1: 9:38

I did that if one of the characters my editor wanted me. Well, she, I did cut him, cut the character from. I can't remember what book it was now, I think the first book, yeah and I was like I'm bringing him back, I'm gonna bring like I was just so attached to him because he was there from the beginning. I'm like I'm going to bring him back. And then I brought him back in a cameo and I wrote it. I was like, yes, and if he makes, he makes sense in this cameo. I mean, the thing is, it's a bit silly because it's only a cameo to me. No one else knows about him.

Speaker 2: 10:04

But I was just like I did it.

Speaker 1: 10:06

Yeah, the rod. What's the most random fact you now know because of this book?

Speaker 2: 10:15

I do. I had to think about this one. Um, it's really boring, but because it's all set on Long Island, um, I I've always gone to the places where I set my books in the past and I was due to go to Long Island when I was writing the first one and COVID intervened, so I was literally booked and everything to go. So it's the only place I haven't yet been to. I mean, I've been to New York and I've been to the surrounds, but I haven't been since I've written the book. So the exact areas.

Speaker 2: 10:42

I always like to just get that last kind of um realism, if you like yeah so obviously done an awful lot of research about long island, just kind of getting it in my head. You know you spend hours on google maps and images and that sort of stuff. So my boring, uh, but random fact is that long island would be the 13th biggest I think it is state in the in america if it was its own state and it would be the most dense in terms of population.

Speaker 2: 11:04

So there you go it would, yeah, which surprised me. I don't know why, like I guess it was. Basically they call it the first suburb in the world, I guess because it gets all those people from from manhattan just traveling.

Speaker 1: 11:15

Yeah, so yeah, um, my aunts were living in los angeles, moved out to florida now, but they were living in long island. And I think what always, always surprised me is that I just thought it's just Long Island just being one place, just one place called Long Island I sound so naive One place called Long Island. But it's only when I got there that I realised oh, it's actual counties. It's not other states in America. It's lots of counties and then collectively it's Long Island.

Speaker 2: 11:47

Exactly the same for me and you know it's funny because I've got like a I think it's a second cousin or big Irish family. So we've got cousins everywhere. But we've got second cousins who live in Long Island and when I wrote the first one she sent me a really nice picture of her on the beach with the book and she was saying you know, my cousin's written a book set on my island. I can't wait to read it. And it was. You know this was all over Facebook and the family are all over it and I'm thinking, oh god, please don't find something wrong and I never heard from her.

Speaker 2: 12:13

So I, um yeah, I don't know if that's a vote of confidence or if it's just a, you know, busy lives let's put it down to both.

Speaker 1: 12:22

Let's say it's a busy life and vote of confidence. Not the other one of. I can't even look at him anymore, Okay. So was this book hard or easier to write than the last one, and why?

Speaker 2: 12:36

Um, yeah, probably slightly easier for what we talked about earlier, in the sense that it had this kind of universe established, had the main character established, had an idea from the first book, because, although you can read it as a standalone, it is obviously part of a series and there are some overriding kind of story arcs. So having that as the background, it gives you a bit of a platform to build on, doesn't it? So, yeah, probably slightly easier. I would add, in that not having the first one being based on a real life set of serial killings gives you a certain kind of basis to work from, whereas this one was a completely new story. So, yeah, that that adds its own challenges. But yeah, as I say, once you've got those kind of skeletons to build on, it's a little bit easier why have you set your books in the states?

Speaker 1: 13:23

because I'm thinking about the very first one. You wrote like the dark inside yeah, I mean that was madness.

Speaker 2: 13:30

I mean setting it in a in the 40s in a part I mean, I've been to quite a lot of the states and I spent a reasonable amount of time there but setting it in one of the places that I've never been within like a thousand miles of um. But when you're young and stupid, you don't think about these things, do you? So I was kind of quite lucky in that sense. Um, why do I sit in the States? I don't know. I've always leaned a little bit more towards American culture. I guess I talk about this a bit sometimes if you. I mean, I grew up in London in the 80s and it's quite a bleak place in a lot of ways and all the TV was like if you think about east enders in the 80s or something it's so dull and gray, and then you've had like dallas and dynasty and night rider and the a team you know just look at the opening to east enders.

Speaker 2: 14:09

You look at the opening to the a team. It's got robots, it's got men dumping out of a van, palm trees, beaches. It's like, yeah, this is, this is the stuff.

Speaker 2: 14:18

Um, so I guess a bit of that and then a lot of my big influences are American writers, so, like James L Roy and James Lee Burke, people like that um, so yeah, there's I guess that's where I started that and the combination of having it everything being based on real life killings to some extent. But having said all that, I always wanted to write a book set in my hometown, and that was that was what I did with the first one. I'll definitely write more in London because you know it's like lifelong Londoner yeah, you just have to you have to give homage to it.

Speaker 1: 14:49

That's how I feel exactly that's what no one knows unless you've lived here right. It's nothing like what you see on telly or in books, or you know exactly that's how I feel when I write my series, because they're set in southeast London and they're set around Greenwich and all those surrounding areas and I'm like that's my area and I know that I know them little back alleys well, so I feel like I'm the right person to write about them. What's?

Speaker 2: 15:11

your favourite, james Earl Roy.

Speaker 1: 15:13

Yeah, the only person, the only person Get a little bit resentful by seeing him. I'm like, how dare you come in my manner? What's your favorite, james Earl is um, I love, I love the.

Speaker 2: 15:32

So his run of books from the, the first LA quartet and then the trilogy uh, the underworld trilogy are yeah probably my favorite sort of run of books that anyone's ever done.

Speaker 2: 15:41

But my favorite is the big nowhere, which is the one that comes before um, la confidential, yeah, even though la confidential is better known. Big nowhere is where he kind of gets the. He sort of nails his structure. He's got his three protagonists and they're all interwoven and and I think it's just so beautifully written, yeah, just, and the ending is just it's heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking mine is American tabloid like that's my favorite, elroy, and. I'm never gonna argue with you on it oh it's like.

Speaker 1: 16:09

But I always say that's the one that made me want to write, but then also realize you can't write like him. You just have to find your own style, find your own way, because no one does Elroy other than Elroy.

Speaker 2: 16:20

Totally. Have you got something in the top drawer, that where you try to write Elroy and then no, this isn't working.

Speaker 1: 16:26

Yeah, for about half a minute, like nope.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Same. I think I got to a paragraph.

Speaker 1: 16:33

Because I would say there's a rhythm to his writing, like even when you first read him. And you first read him, you're like what, what is this? But then, when you get into the rhythm of it, you're like, oh okay, I'm so glad you said that, because that was my exact first reaction. I actually read Cold 6000 first without realising it was a series oh did you which is obviously the most extreme.

Speaker 2: 16:51

And my reaction was exactly the same. I was like what is this? This isn't a book.

Speaker 1: 17:03

This is. I don't even know what's going on here, but of course it's brilliant. So my first the American tabloid was my first one, and then I had to go back and just go through everything. Yeah, that was a great one, okay. So what? Without giving away any spoilers, you know you nearly did. Did the book end the way you originally planned? Or did, or can't speak, or did it surprise you too?

Speaker 2: 17:17

uh, no, it never ends the way I think it's going to end. Um, I'm not. I'm a sort of reluctant planner. I've planned more with each book, um, because I find it works better for me and it sort of saves your time in the long run. But I'm still not the sort of thorough planner, um, so I'll always have a structure in mind and a synopsis I've written in a beginning, end and middle. But I've found with every book, no matter whether I plan, don't plan meticulously or otherwise, the ending always kind of evolves as you go through it. So, yeah, um, yeah, the. The where Casey ends up at the end of the book was where I wanted it to be. But the who and the why was different, and also the. There's a sort of cliffhanger at the end that speaks to the, the love, the larger arc of the story, um, and I hadn't quite envisaged where that was going to go.

Speaker 1: 18:05

So that's really fun to play out with in the next one yeah, I like to think I know, because I do plan, like I kind of I do know how they the story, like the story ends, but that I'll say that last closing paragraph, for example, that will always change From what was in version one. Draft one is not what's going to be in the final. That's probably down to my editor. She's like no, you need something more. And I'm like I've got nothing, literally.

Speaker 2: 18:34

You need to find. The plot changes as you get to the end, though, do you ever have it where the killer is different, or how it ends.

Speaker 1: 18:43

Yeah, that happens. And I said subplots suddenly just pop out of nowhere and I was like I was not planning for that. But I don't mind that. Like I don't feel like, oh my god, this has happened. Now everything's just going to collapse because this one, you know, like a piece of thread, it's just, it's just going to unravel. I'm just like, okay, this is, this was unexpected. Let's just see where it goes. But I think I like that. I don't mind that at all.

Speaker 2: 19:05

I find that the most fun bit, in a way, because it feels the most natural. It's when the writing's really flowing, is when stuff like that happens, I find.

Speaker 1: 19:11

Yeah, the first time it happened, though, my response was my computer. I looked at it and I went, oh shit, I was like I was not expecting that and I just left it like it happened. I'm like this is a subplot, because the first draft I left it, carried on writing the whole rest of the book, got to the end and kind of solved it, and then knew when I wrote the second draft, I now have to fill in all the I need, you know, join the pieces. But I was just like, really, this is what you're doing, okay. Okay, rod, did you ever hit the wall when writing this book and how did you get past it?

Speaker 2: 19:50

yeah, I mean, I was surprised you asked that, in a sense because I wanted to ask you have you never hit the wall? You must have hit the wall yeah, I've hit the wall.

Speaker 1: 19:59

With every book I get, it's just it's weird because sometimes you know, like when you can be in a flow and you think there's there are no rules, there are no obstacles. This is like a clear road I'm on and all of a sudden it it happens and you're like I don't know. I don't know what's happening, I don't know what the character's doing character's doing, even though I have a plan. I'm not sure if this actual plot line's even working, and when that happens I just have to walk away and that's the thing, it's the best thing to do. I'm leaving you. I will come back in a day. Maybe I'll come with leaving a relationship. I'm closing the door, I'm out, I might come, I might come back. So you're threatening your book.

Speaker 2: 20:41

In other words, yeah, I threatened the book, I might come back. So you're threatening your book. In other words, yeah, I threaten the book, you better sort yourself out. Unless you start cooperating. It's you, it's not me. You've got to change.

Speaker 1: 20:54

Oh, my God, it's definitely you. I am not the problem here. It's definitely you that's. The only way I can deal with it, though, is to walk away, because the longer you like you stare at it and you try and fix sentences, or it doesn't. It's not working. Sometimes, you just have to walk away, and then it will come to you at some strange moment watching the football and I'm like, oh yeah, they're washing up.

Speaker 2: 21:20

I used to get a lot when I was walking the kids to school. I'd be like, hang on a minute nearly walk in front of a bus or something like. Sorry, sweetheart, daddy's just got a bit distracted. I've just fixed the problem, so that's all right yeah, no, always every book at some point but yeah, like you say, yeah, it happened.

Speaker 1: 21:39

But you know those moments. It happened the other day when people that was asked if you have an idea in the middle of the night, like do you write it down? And normally I'm like no, or I'll be like, oh, I remember, I'll remember it in the morning and I don't. And then about two weeks ago, for the first time ever in my life, I woke up at four in the morning, I went to the bathroom and this I had this problem with a, with a story I'm writing, and for about a year I was trying to work out the backstory to this character and it just came to me and then I wrote it down in my phone and I felt so proud. Or in the morning I've written it down.

Speaker 2: 22:13

I am not forgetting this so hold on, is your phone? Got like notes with like by washing up liquid, go to the gym. Remember this one was a serial killer as a child basically now, but I never used to do that before.

Speaker 1: 22:27

But I'm like no, you have, you have apps, you have things available so you might try and use them, so you don't forget, yeah that makes sense so, rod, what are you working on next?

Speaker 2: 22:41

book three in a series yeah, yeah, so I mean it's. I always say it's like homework, isn't it? You finish a book and then what you do the next one, write a book. So, yeah, you know it's like you stop one, you, you work on the next one. So, but, in fairness, I've always said, whether I'm on submission or in between books, like the best thing to do is just get on with the next one. And especially if you are on submission, which I'm not, but in those times when people are, I always my advice to people who are doing that process is just get on with writing, because you'll just drive yourself mad if you, if you just sort of wait. But, yeah, um, working on book three, which will follow on, as I say, very pretty much immediately from, uh, the end of book two. As I say, it ends on a slight, fairly big cliffhanger, um, in terms of the, the longer story. So, um, just picking up that, yeah, and um, yeah how many do you have in mind for it?

Speaker 1: 23:34

the series just a trilogy, or you think it will continue beyond that?

Speaker 2: 23:38

so it's a really good question because it's something I'm wrestling with. There's. There's part of me that thinks wrapping up as a trilogy would be really nice and kind of wrapping up that, um, as I say, I've kind of had this slight sort of background thing of like who's the mastermind behind it? All kind of thing yeah, if I'm honest.

Speaker 2: 23:57

I'm sort of ripping off uh line of duty a little bit. You know, they're like who's age, you've got your series, but in the background who is H? Kind of thing. I'm sort of subtly trying to do that. So there's part of me thinks, yeah, three books is quite a nice way to wrap that up. But then part of me is thinking, well, you could go on and on and on.

Speaker 2: 24:13

So I don't know in all honesty, on the practical side, this is the last one I'm contracted to for the moment. Then, I guess, after two comes out, speak to the publishers, see how they feel about it. Um, it's probably the same for you. I've got ideas for a million other things that I want to write. Um, at least three that are definitely quite concrete. Um, so, yeah, um, I don't know. We'll see.

Speaker 1: 24:35

To be honest, we'll see can I ask you a question that's not another one that's not on the list, because I know you and I both you and I both did the same um crime writing ma at city. So you remember that moment when they put your your opening chapters in the anthology and they send it off to agents. Did you ever envision that this is where you would be? I won't even show how many books you are now. What's it six? Am I making it up?

Speaker 2: 25:00

uh, yeah, you spot on six. This will be book six. Yeah, um, no, no, I mean I was in a slightly weird position in that I managed to get an agent before I finished the course. But that's because I had my own deadline, which was the birth of my first daughter was the middle of the right, in the middle of the course. So after the first year. So I was like, right, I've got to get this thing done. So I was slightly ahead of the sort of timeframe there, but ahead of the sort of time frame there.

Speaker 2: 25:23

But yeah, when I look back now, when I think back about why I did the course, and I remember talking to people at the time and sort of saying I'm not here expecting to get published because you just never think you will, but what it was, I'd taken a sabbatical a couple years beforehand to write something. And obviously they wrote a book in no time and sent it to everyone, got rejected by everyone and that lived in the top drawer forever more, never to be. But I loved it. I loved the process so much that I kind of kicked around this idea for a couple of years, thinking do I want to do this? How am I going to do this? And finally I was like, right, you've either got to do this or you've got to just shelve it.

Speaker 2: 25:54

And the way to make myself do that was to take that course. And so I went into it just thinking, right, if be better at this, to enjoy it and also to make myself write this book that I wanted to write because I already had, um, some research on the idea for what became the Dark Inside. I was like, if I can just do that and do it well to the point where I'm happy and really kind of scratch that itch, then that's all I really want to get out of it. Yeah, so that was what I went into it for. So no, I mean I never envisaged, yeah, sitting here sort of 10 years later with, I mean, six published books, another couple that have sort of sitting in the background and you know everything else. But did you?

Speaker 1: 26:29

No, literally I went into it and I just thought, well, I'll do the course and I'll finish the book, because you have to, you have to write the book. And I said, if no one picks it up, I'll just self publish it. And now, and I'll just carry on doing what I've been doing, which is being a lawyer, I just I wasn't thinking of this at all. So what are we? Next year it'll be four books in and even like doing the pod. None of that wasn't thinking about it at all, because I've got the course happened for me by accident, because I won the competition. So, yeah, I don't think I'd even have done the course. So it's weird, yeah, it's weird, yeah, it's weird.

Speaker 2: 27:06

You talk about those moments in life where you know your life just goes that way or that way yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:13

Just those sliding doors moments. It really is.

Speaker 2: 27:17

I'm not a believer in fate or anything like that, but I think about the night I ended up meeting what is now my wife 20-odd years ago. I spent the whole night telling my mates to just go. I wanted to go to another bar. I was like this bar's rubbish, can we just leave the whole night trying to get out of there. And finally we didn't. And then obviously I ended up. You know, now, 20 years and two kids and a house later, it's like, yeah, how can your whole life turn on that tiny kind of thing?

Speaker 1: 27:39

you know, but anyway, life is a very mysterious, mysterious thing. So right back to shatter creek. What message or feeling do you hope readers will take away from the book?

Speaker 2: 27:51

uh, do you know, I I just really I really enjoy writing casey. She's um, she's just, I always wanted her to be a lot more kind of down to earth and relatable than than a lot of um, the kind of detectives in that you get in kind of down to earth and relatable than than a lot of um the kind of detectives in that you get in kind of particularly like american crime fiction, like I just feel like some of the tropes have been overdone, you know the alcoholism and the kind of self-destructive tendencies and things like that. So I just wanted her to be.

Speaker 2: 28:17

She's certainly got a bit of that, but it comes more from a place of lacking in self-confidence and also the environment she's working in, which is kind of obviously quite male dominated. It's a slightly misogynistic culture there, uh, within the police department, and so I just really wanted to write someone who you can relate to through those struggles and through that, that context. So I just hope people come away from it kind of rooting for her, um, because, yeah, I've grown really quite fond of her and and yeah, I really enjoy writing her. So, um, I put her through the mill a bit, so I'd quite like to have people on side at the end of it at least.

Speaker 1: 28:49

So yeah, it's funny, when I was coming up with um, the character of Henley for my series, and I remember thinking I'm not giving her any of those tropes, she's not gonna have any trauma, she's just gonna have a normal, happy life, no issues, she's just doing her job I was like, no, I need to give her something. And now she's got the annoying husband, she's got PTSD and I was trying to not have anything like that. But you do need to give them some kind of struggle, some kind of obstacle.

Speaker 2: 29:20

I mean, this is why Casey's, like, she jokes in the book that she's going to get frequent flyer miles from IA because she's just constantly being accused of like murdering other cops. So, yeah, there's there's been a little bit of a turn away from what I wanted to, but yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's. Um, it's just natural, isn't it as part of the story. But I definitely, like you, I want to avoid some of those really sort of overdone uh yeah ideas yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 29:45

So finally Rod Reynolds, to end our coffee break. Which book, film show or video game do you recommend for our listeners?

Speaker 2: 29:54

Oh God, Do you know what? This is going to be completely off base because it's not crime, but I'm actually watching four seasons on Netflix at the moment. I don't know if you've seen it, oh.

Speaker 1: 30:07

I haven't started it yet. Is it good? It looks funny.

Speaker 2: 30:10

It's absolutely brilliant and I think anyone watching this would appreciate this and I think you would appreciate it, because it's just so beautifully written and characterised. I don't know about you, but as a writer, done and and kind of you know, I just really enjoy it, no matter the genre like kind of thing. Obviously I lean more towards crime and thrillers, but yeah, when something's that well written and it's not kind of laugh out loud funny, it's just quite clever and heartfelt and and the characters are so well done, that yeah I'm, I would thoroughly recommend that.

Speaker 1: 30:38

Yeah, definitely oh, you know I'm I've been terrible at the moment because I've become that person who has everything on their watch list and I'm like I need to watch it, I need to watch it and I'm just not getting around to it. I need to, I need to start Andor, season two.

Speaker 2: 30:56

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:57

Oh, but no, Well, I recommend to everyone what I love. It just comes from video games. On Prime, amazon Prime, there's a series called Secret Level and it's an anthology series and they've taken it from video games, from different video games, and it's so good.

Speaker 2: 31:14

It is so good so that is why I'm going to have a look at it.

Speaker 1: 31:16

That's all, yeah, have a watch. They're only about 15 minutes long, yeah, so they're not that long at all. You can watch it in a coffee break. Look what I did.

Speaker 2: 31:28

I'd leave me to say thank you so much for joining me for the coffee break no, thank you very much for having me again and best of luck with the books as well and best of luck with shatter creek.

Speaker 1: 31:38

and that's it for this coffee break. Thank you so much for joining me. Starting from season four, we'll be bringing you regular coffee breaks 20 minute episodes perfect for a quick chat with your favourite authors about their latest books. And here's the fun part next season we're answering your questions. If there's something you've always wanted to ask an author, send it in Email, your question to theconversation at nadinemathersoncom, and we might just answer it in a future episode with a special shout out to you all Until next time, keep reading, keep listening, and I'll see you soon for another coffee break. Oh, and before I forget, don't forget subscribe, follow, like, review and share this episode with your friends. Your support keeps the podcast growing and if you head down to the show notes, you can also support the podcast by buying us a cup of coffee. The links are in the show notes.