Heidi Perks: The Persistence Paradox

What happens when the dream of becoming a published author collides with the harsh realities of the publishing industry? In this candid conversation, Sunday Times bestselling author Heidi Perks reveals the rollercoaster journey that began when she took redundancy in 2012 to pursue writing full-time while raising two small children.

Heidi doesn't hold back as she shares the gut-wrenching moment her first agent dropped her after multiple rejections from publishers, leaving her feeling like she was "back at square one."

We talk about  the surprising isolation of a writing career, the struggle to generate fresh ideas book after book,  why finding your supportive tribe is crucial to survival in this industry and Heidi's new book, 'Somone Is Lying.' 

Someone is Lying 

How do you find your daughter when no one believes she is missing?

Single mother Jess and her daughter Issie have always shared an unbreakable bond. For the last seven years, it's been just the two of them.

That is, until Issie meets Dylan.

When the pair announce their plans to go travelling, Jess is devastated - Issie is only seventeen after all, and Jess doesn’t trust her daughter’s new boyfriend.

And when she stops hearing from her altogether, she's terrified.

With Dylan refusing to talk, and the police unwilling to help, Jess is faced with a mother's worst nightmare.

Can she find her daughter before it's too late?

Follow Heidi Perks 

Chapters

• 0:26 Writing's Solitary Nature
• 2:43 Rejection and Building Resilience
• 10:42 Taking Control of Your Writing Career
• 19:02 Learning and Self-Belief
• 32:38 Finding Fresh Ideas After Success
• 44:18 Behind Someone is Lying
• 55:28 Navigating Feedback and Revisions
• 1:01:01 Final Thoughts and Advice

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

You know, when you're, every other part of writing is such a solitary thing that you don't experience that kind of wider arena that you're writing in and even meeting up or, like you know, chatting with you or meeting up with other authors. It's great. It just doesn't happen anywhere near as often enough as I would like it to.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. And if you're in England and Wales, I'm not sure about Scotland, but if you're in England and Wales this week we are leading up to another bank holiday weekend and I can't wait. I really can't wait because I think I'm going to see Mission Impossible, the last film and if you've listened to previous episodes of this podcast, you will know how much I love Mission Impossible, so I'm looking forward to that. And a thing I noticed when I was editing this week's conversation with Sunday Times bestselling author Heidi Perks, in which we'll talk about her new book Someone is Lying.

Speaker 2: 1:08

I realised that there's been a bit of a common theme with my recent conversations, and that is that we've spoken a lot about persistence and the way in which authors have to find ways to take control when they're in a submission process or querying for agents or they're just in the trenches of publishing, and also the many ways in which rejection can show up during our careers as writers. Rejection is not just something you just have to deal with when you're initially looking for agents. It can show up when you're out on submissions and publishers say no. It could show up when you've completed a book deal and publishers turn around and say, actually, we don't want any more books from you, thank you. It's been emotional but it's time to move on. Rejections there from readers, rejections there from festivals you may be desperate to get on a panel but they turn around and say no and we as writers have to find so many different techniques and ways to deal with that rejection and all the constant burdens that this publishing journey can throw on us. That doesn't sound very joyful. I'm'm sorry, but it just occurred to me whilst I was editing that it had been a common theme recently. But also another common theme was the importance of having really good people around you, and that could be your friends and family, your writer friends, your tribe. You really need to find your tribe in this industry because their support is going to be so crucial to your survival. You really need to find your tribe in this industry because their support is going to be so crucial to your survival. Literally, it will be crucial to your survival as a writer. Anyway, I'm going to get on with the show.

Speaker 2: 2:54

As I said, this week I'm in conversation with Sunday Times bestselling author, heidi Perks, and in our conversation, we talk about asking yourself the question am I good enough the gamble of writing and writing for a new generation? Now, as always, sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Heidi Perks, welcome to the conversation. Thank you, okay. So my first question for you is I know it always sounds very daunting my first question, but it's a very nice one. So I was reading for your, you know your your about, I think was your about section on um, your website, and you was talking about in how, in 2012, you took redundancy and then that led on to your writing career. And then I was thinking it's so funny because I was literally the year later, 2013. I took redundancy and I felt that's when my writing career took off. So my question was how, when looking back on it now, how crucial was that decision for you to take redundancy?

Speaker 1: 4:01

Oh, massively. I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't made that decision because I had two small children as well at the time. So my daughter was two and my and I had a newborn baby and and so I think if and if, I think if I'd have carried on I was only working part-time at that point but I would no way have had the time or given myself that time to try and write and really it was more of a decision of if I, if I, take redundancy, what can I do with my life? What do I want to do with my life? So it kind of gave me that window to look and say this is what I want to do instead. Yeah, I definitely wouldn't have done it if I hadn't have made that decision. How long?

Speaker 2: 4:46

at that point anyway yeah, I feel like, until something like that happens, it may be something you've always thought about doing, whether it's being a riot or doing anything else, anything else but it's kind of a mixture, like you feel like you need to have the security and like this comfort, this buffer zone, before you can make that next step, and sometimes it takes that redundancy to force you into that position yeah, I think that's a good point.

Speaker 1: 5:13

I mean, I have friends as well that you will. Will do it alongside, you know, started off very much so alongside their job, and so many writers do that, don't they? And they find they. You have to find the time, whether you're commuting to work or whether you get yourself up at five o'clock in the morning because you, it's too much of a gamble. I mean, I'm sure we as long, along with many other writers, know how much it, how much of a gamble it is to say you're going to write a book, you're going to you know you, it take it. Well, it took me years. It took me years to get to a point where I could say it was my full-time job, and that's just not something that you have the luxury of doing. Unless you make those kind of decisions, I don't think when did you get?

Speaker 1: 5:59

comfortable, you know yes, I've gone oh, I guess not.

Speaker 1: 6:05

And do you know what? It wasn't even when I was published. I think it was a while after I was published, because it's always one of those funny things, isn't it? You say you tell people you're a writer, or you tell people you're an author. It felt a bit, oh, a bit cringy in a way, and I wrote, you know and and, and then you kind of wait for people's reactions as to you get some really strange reactions along the way as well. You know people thinking it's not a proper job for a while, or you're not, you know you're not published, or you're not doing it properly, or whatever I'd say. It was like two or three books in that I finally felt that kind of confidence to say that's what I was doing, because I was by then on a year a book contract and I it was. It was not a full time job, is it? But it was my job. That was what I did by that point. But yeah, it did take a couple of years and a few books, for sure.

Speaker 2: 7:03

Yeah, you're not the first person like on this podcast to say that it kind of feels like it's indulgent to call yourself a writer and it's, and it's anything but that could. It's just who you are and what you choose, what you've chosen to do. But when you tell people I'm a writer, it's like it feels a bit like who are you? To call yourself a writer? Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1: 7:25

I imagine it's like anything in the arts in that kind of arena, isn't it? You know if you're an artist or um, even you know if you, if you're an actor, like not someone who's on on tv or whatever, but it's, it's a very difficult thing because I guess there's an expectation around it as well. As if you say, if you say I'm an author or I'm a writer, then everybody wants to know well, what have you written? Will I've you know? Those are the questions you hear, aren't they? Well, have I heard of you? That's what I get. Have I heard of you? Well, you tell me, clearly, not, not, if you're asking, um, but or, or what? Will I have read something of yours? You know, it's like it's the daftest of things, and you then feel like you're having to justify yourself. And still, now I justify what I've written and oh, it probably wouldn't be. You know, maybe you haven't heard of me, maybe you haven't read me.

Speaker 2: 8:23

Um, it's a really, really funny thing it's such a ridiculous question because I've lost count of the amount of time someone goes. Oh so what have I read anything? I'm like well, how am I supposed to know? You tell me what you've read, but I don't know. I don't know what's on your bookshelves. I say it much nicer than that, exactly. It's just it's a silly question and it's like okay, now I need to entertain you and justify why I'm doing what I do. It's so silly, yeah and what.

Speaker 1: 8:52

And then I think you also you know, you, I still get this, um, this kind of feeling of well, if you haven't heard of me and you haven't read any of my books, then then I'm not enough. You know, you still have this. I'm like you say, you have to justify it. Um, yeah, it's a funny thing, isn't it? I guess it's. I don't know, you don't get that in other jobs.

Speaker 2: 9:18

No, oh god, I've never oh no, as a lawyer, if I've ever said to anyone, yeah, I'm a solicitor, no one's ever said, oh, have I ever heard of any cases that you've, that you've been on like you just wouldn't ask? They'd be like, oh, I, I'll normally get the question oh, how can you defend a guilty person? But that's it, yeah, yeah and it's, it's that level of interest.

Speaker 1: 9:41

But I think with writing you you kind of feel, and whether it's self level of interest, but I think with writing you you kind of feel, and whether it's self-imposed or not, you feel this need to prove yourself, constantly, prove what you're doing and and that you're good enough to be doing it. I guess, and I think, I think probably that is an element of you you you prove it want to need to prove it to yourself as well maybe so when you, when you decided, when you took redundancy because I said it sounds like I've just been stalking you, but it's not.

Speaker 2: 10:10

It's all, it's all available online. But when you did the Curtis, you did the Curtis Brown novel, right? Of course, yeah, what was your first day like? Because I remember mine on when I did my course. Can you remember how you felt?

Speaker 1: 10:25

oh well, I mine was online, so it was probably very different to yours. Yeah, so we were the inaugural online course um in 2013, and did you do Curtis Brown as well, then?

Speaker 2: 10:39

no, I did, I did a city, I did city uni, craig Wright in MA okay.

Speaker 1: 10:45

So, um, the reason I wanted to do online is because I'm based in Bournemouth and most of the courses are all in London and obviously, as we've said, I've had two young children, so, um, at that point, and so, yeah, for me, I had to do, I had to find an online course and, um, so it was. It was very different, but I remember looking at everybody's photos as I started and, and you do, you feel this kind of sense of I don't know whether I should be here. I think all these people are, have a, have earned their place, and I don't feel like I'm quite up to everybody else's standard. And there were 15 of us on the course and I really do remember thinking that. And also, you know, I'm not when I say I'm not well read. I'm very well read in my genre. I read loads and loads of books in the genre that I read, but I'm not very well read with literary books or the classics.

Speaker 1: 11:47

That isn't my thing yeah, and suddenly you're with people who are and you do you feel like you just feel a bit, um, oh gosh, is this really the right? Is this really the right place for me for me to be in? And um. And the other thing I found was a bit daunting was that you had to give people feedback. I don't know whether you had to do that on your course as well. Give each other feedback on their writing, yeah, and I thought I was rubbish. I really didn't know what to say to people and and in and, and that I found was a very difficult thing and I loved getting feedback from other people, but when it came to me having to do it for them, it was quite a daunting experience. I kind of feel like I was completely thrown in, like I didn't really know what I was letting myself in for at all. But gone.

Speaker 2: 12:42

No, I'm saying it is a weird thing that that first day, even those first couple of weeks, because you know you're there on your writing, someone has read your, the sample of your writing, decided, yeah, you're good enough, you should be in your course. So you know you've gotten over that step. But then, whether you're doing it online, I did mine, mama's in person but it's that feeling of, I think, acknowledging for the first time that you're now exposed, you're, you are exposed, you're writing exposed. You as a person, as a writer, are now exposed. And then you have to I said again doing that feedback on others as well. That is daunting. Oh my god, what am I supposed to say? Because I'm looking at this, how I feel I'm like I'm looking at your work. I'm thinking, oh my god, you're'm like. I'm looking at your work. I'm thinking, oh my God, you're so good. And I'm looking at my work thinking I am not that good. Like what?

Speaker 1: 13:27

can I possibly? Tell you I think it's amazing how, as writers, you kind of like beat yourself up so much, don't you? I mean, that's that's kind of what we're. What we've been saying so far is that, like you're constantly it's almost like you're constantly finding a reason to say that I'm not good enough to do this, and, um, that's a shame isn't it that we feel?

Speaker 1: 13:50

like that, that we put that pressure on ourselves. But yeah, definitely in those early days that is, that is totally. I did feel like a bit of a fish out of water, um, but I think, you know, being online was probably a lot easier. Being able to hide behind a screen was a lot easier than being in, um, in the same space as other people like you were you can now I would love it.

Speaker 1: 14:18

I would love to go back to school and do courses and do all of those kind of things. I think I think you know now I'm like I miss, I really miss, um, being with other people. I think writing is a very lonely thing to do and, you know, the majority of our time we're just sat here on our own in our own headspace and and actually I really miss that office environment and I miss, like you know, the sort of going and doing a course or even one day a week or whatever I'd love to do. You do you feel the same? Do you miss that other?

Speaker 2: 15:00

people? I do. No, it's. It's really strange because I do and I've got because I was going to. Really strange because I do. And I was gonna ask you because, at the time, you know, when you are at work and you're surrounded by people and I'm constantly so I was constantly surrounded by people, whether it's in the office or I'm going to court, it's just it's. You know, my job, it's it's people based. And I used to think, god, I can't just wait to just work for myself and be away from everyone. And then, when the moment comes, yeah, and you are working for yourself and I'm like I need people. I just miss those moments of do you want to go to lunch, let's go for lunch, and you just go for lunch, or I'm just popping out, like I'm just popping out to the shop, do you want anything? Or you're just having a chat about anything. It's just, it's just having those moments because when you know, when you're writing and you choose to take a break, there's no one to go to the shop with.

Speaker 2: 15:53

You just walk into the shop on your own yeah there's no one to say let's go and have a quick lunch.

Speaker 1: 15:57

Yeah, no, it's exactly that. And and it's also it's not. It's not social interaction in terms of, like, meeting a friend for coffee. There is, it's that. It's that business. It's the social interactions that you get from a business environment. Yeah, and whenever I have and I don't do it often enough, but whenever I take a day to go and see the publishers or my agent in London, I absolutely love it because I suddenly feel like I'm part of something bigger and maybe that's what it is is that. It's that you know, when you're every, every other part of writing is such a solitary thing that you don't experience that that kind of wider arena that you're, you're writing in and even meeting up or, like you know, chatting with you or meeting up with other authors. It's great. It just doesn't happen anywhere near as often enough as I would like it to.

Speaker 2: 16:56

Did that surprise you, that you'd have those feelings about, I say about solitude and being a writer and wanting to have that connection when you make that decision? To take redundancy. Sorry, because you know that you're cutting off.

Speaker 1: 17:14

I don't think I ever really made, I don't think I ever really gave it that kind of level of thought, I think when I took redundancy, and I remember sitting there thinking, right, I'm going to take this next year and write a book. That was my decision. I'm going to, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to see if I can write that book that I've always wanted to write. So that was it. I, like I said, I had two small, very young children I mean really young. My son was a few months old by this point when I started, um, and so I kind of wasn't thinking long term, I just wanted to see whether or not I could write a book. And then, when I did, and I started sending that out and I started submitting, and I started the whole long process of getting lots and lots of rejections, at that point, that was when I thought, right, ok, what am I going to do with my life?

Speaker 1: 18:05

It wasn't until like a couple of years further down the line that I actually took a step back and thought is this what I want to be doing? Am I going to dedicate my time now to continue trying to write? Am I going to dedicate my time now to continue trying to write. Am I going to go back and do what I did before, which was marketing, or am I going to find do something completely different? And and I remember thinking, I love writing so much I can't imagine now doing anything else.

Speaker 1: 18:34

And it was a very conscious thought that I had at that point, um, where I was very wrapped up in what is the next step? The next step is I want to find an agent, then I want to be published and I want to see my book on the shelf. You know, I was driving. I was so driving towards this dream I had of writing a book and getting it published that you don't kind of like take into account anything else around it. And still, my kids were not at school by this point. So, yeah, I don't you ever, you never, ever, look at how it's going to be in five, ten years time. I think you're just so caught up in am I going to be able to do this at that point? Is it actually going to get me anywhere?

Speaker 2: 19:22

How did you manage the rejection? Because nothing can really prepare you for that either when you're going through the submission process.

Speaker 1: 19:31

No, it was really hard. It was really hard. I won't lie, because a lot of the time you don't even get an email confirmation that you've been rejected.

Speaker 1: 19:45

sometimes you can be sat there and waiting and weeks go past and you know, particularly when you're looking, when you've submitted your work to agents, um, you know, a lot of the time you don't even hear back from them, and that was very difficult because you then have to kind of make the assumption, okay, well, they're not interested, um, and just sometimes to get a letter to say thank you, but this isn't. For me was better than nothing, um, and you kind of pick yourself up and you go okay, um, you know, that's fine, we'll keep going, um, and actually, kind of, when you're looking for an agent, that was okay. The hardest bit was when I had an agent and my first, very first book was submitted out to publishers and it went to like a dozen publishers in the UK and another dozen in the in the US and, um, I was really excited about it at this point because I thought, okay, I've jumped the first hurdle. Um, you know, everybody was really was, you know, was very positive that the book was going to get picked up, and then it didn't. And, you know, 25 publishers later, um, and quite a few months later, until I got the final rejection.

Speaker 1: 21:00

It was that point of thinking, god, I've now gone so far, I've written a whole book, I've been taken on by an agent. And then I've kind of reached another dead end. And I said to my agent what do I do now? And she said well, you're just going to have to write another book. And that was the point where I thought, oh my god, you know this is. This has taken me so long um, you know we're talking over a year, um, and I kind of got really impatient about it as well, and I remember thinking I can't, I can't spend another year on a book for this, so this same thing to happen again. And so I then rushed out a book really, really quickly, in a matter of about four months, and clearly that wasn't a very good one. And she said to me you know, we don't even want to send this one out. It's not as good as your last one. And and it was, it was, it was.

Speaker 1: 21:55

It was a really hard time because I think I was battling with this. I was in my early 40s by this point and I was battling with this. If I don't do it soon, I'm going to have to give up and do something else, you know, financially and whatever else reason Also, am I good enough? Then you know, clearly it's not. I'm not going anywhere. So what's the point of carrying on? So it was. It was a really hard time, but I do remember, like I said, you know before, with the whole, what do I want to do? There's nothing else I want to do, and I just thought I can't. There is nothing else I want to do, I need to. I just need to carry on. I need to write another book, um, and that's what I did, and then eventually, that was the book that would come to be Now. You See, her, which was the first book that I was traditionally published and that did really well. It was like five years from starting to write it's so not unusual.

Speaker 2: 23:06

And I and I still don't think anything can prepare you, because I think, because I said, all the build-up is to is for getting an agent and you do everything to get an agent. You write the book, you do. You know, you read all the. I don't know how to get an agent guide. You do everything to get an agent. You write the book, you do. You know, you read all the how to get an agent guide. You do everything to get to that point.

Speaker 2: 23:23

And then, when you get an agent and you sign, I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to think, oh, my god, I've done it now, I've made it like the next bit is going to be easy. But then there's nothing that's going to prepare you for the fact that right now you go out on submission and there are going to be. It's either going to be someone wants you straight away, you go into an auction, or it's going to be more rejection and your agent says to you okay, not this book, let's try the next book, or it could be the third book. So the fact that it was even your you know it's your first book that's published isn't even your third.

Speaker 1: 23:55

Your first book, it's your third one it was my fourth actually, because I'd written another one. I'd written another one that I'd sent out to it to on submission to agents. That never got picked up. And then I started writing my second one when I went on to the Curses Brown course. That was the one that got me an agent, but then that didn't get any get me anywhere. And then, yeah, I wrote a third one that didn't get me anywhere. So, yeah, it was my fourth one, but then I'd started writing my fourth one and my agent dropped me. So, no, I then really really had to take a step back. Yeah, so not only. Oh, my god, I feel like it just happened. I can remember it so clearly and it was quite amusing in hindsight because, um, I've got jumped on a call and I and I just and I'd sent, like um, early chapters of Now you See Her and um, and I was really excited about this one I thought, right, this has got something.

Speaker 1: 24:59

I really think this one's got something more than the other ones had, and I jumped on this call and I was really expecting some positive feedback. Oh my God. And instead what I was told was I don't think there's anything like literally word for word there's nothing more we can do with you, we're going to have to let you go. And so, yeah, and so I then lost my agent and I was like, I came off the call and I'm like, oh my God, I'm literally back at square one.

Speaker 1: 25:30

You know, it's like all these years have passed and I'm. I'm now. I've written three books and I don't have an agent. What am I going to do? So it was actually the best thing that could happen, because I worked on the book and I submitted it to different agents and I managed to secure the agent that now that I'm with now who's absolutely amazing. Um, so you know, it all worked out for the best in the end, but at that point it was definitely a oh my goodness, a real setback because, like you say, you're so driven to get an agent, aren't you? That is like a major step.

Speaker 2: 26:15

But how do you? But how do you get through that? Because all the build-up is to get an agent. And you get an agent and then they say it's not. Oh, it's like you're being dumped. You're so being dumped.

Speaker 1: 26:32

Sorry, I was dumped, but how do you?

Speaker 2: 26:36

get through it, but it does something. I'm asking it's like you make make all these decisions and they're life-changing decisions. I'm gonna take redundancy, I'm gonna change my life to do the thing I really want to do. You do everything you're supposed to do. You know it doesn't work with the first book, so you do another one, and you do another one, and you get your agent and then they, like, they dump you. It's like how, yeah, how do you keep going? Yeah, sorry, that sounds so harsh?

Speaker 1: 27:02

no, but you know what? And? But it happens and it's true yeah, it does.

Speaker 1: 27:06

And the funny, like I remember my, my daughter being about she must have been about six at the time and she'd come into my room and she'd said are you okay? And I thought, right, I'm gonna. This is gonna be a lesson in, like you know, being strong and turning things around. And I was, like you know, it's okay, my agent has said that she doesn't want to work with me anymore, but it's okay because I'm gonna do this. And I remember looking up and she'd walked out the room.

Speaker 2: 27:31

Oh my god, even your child has said no.

Speaker 1: 27:37

Even my child has dumped me and rejected me. But what I did then eventually go on to do was I self-published my books that had been rejected by publishers. So I thought, no, I'm going to take it into my own hands and take back a bit of control. Going to take it into my own hands and like, take back a bit of control, and, um, I decided to self publish that one, whilst still looking for another agent, um, for what was going to be Now, you See Her. So I think that actually was probably what helped me, because it just it gave me that bit of control back. And I think that that's what you lack when you're in everybody else's hands is, you know you can write a great book, but it might not be what anybody's looking for at that time, or you know you it's. You're so out of control. You're in your everybody else has. You know that control of your destiny and your future, really. And that's still pretty much the same now, isn't it with writing.

Speaker 2: 28:44

I said a couple of weeks ago in my my whatsapp group with my writer friends and I said it's the only job. If you saw it advertised, I'll say because I'm old, if I saw it advertised in the newspaper, I wouldn't apply for it because the job description would basically say um, you know, you can work remotely, you can work on it or any project you want to, so you have complete autonomy. But there's no guarantee that you'll get paid at the end and there's no guarantee that there'll be a further project taken on after this. You, you just wouldn't apply for it because you're like well, what's the point? Like you do all this work and you don't know guarantees attached to it, you just wouldn't. You'd never apply for that job. But you know, every day someone will sit down and make that decision to no, I'm going to do this, I'm going to be a writer, I'm going to write that book. It's something else that pushes you through yeah, no, that is so true.

Speaker 1: 29:38

What is it? What is that thing?

Speaker 2: 29:40

I don't know what is that thing?

Speaker 1: 29:45

I think delusion is a good word for it maybe I think you hope, don't you?

Speaker 1: 29:50

because actually it doesn't even finish there. It doesn't finish when you get published. Um, I mean, I I had very much the experience that my first book did by far the best of all my books, and I'm on book seven's, about to be published now. And so, you know, there's no, there's no, no kind of like flow of like. You build yourself up, you get published and every book progresses from there on in. You know, my book went in there and then literally it's like being this little kind of roller coaster hanging hanging beneath it ever since. And yeah, it's, it's, you have to. It kind of like is a massive learning, massive learning curve. Six books, seven books down the line you're still coming to terms with.

Speaker 2: 30:47

It. It is crazy. It is crazy Because if you sat down and you looked, if I looked at it like pros and cons, just like a sheet in front of me, I would just say, like no move on, I'm going to apply for something else. Yeah, what would your advice be? If you were talking to someone now like a brand new and aspiring writer, what would your advice be to them?

Speaker 1: 31:08

yeah, I mean, oh god, it like it sounds like we should be saying don't do it, doesn't it? No, I think I think the joy you can get out of it as well, and, and, and I, and I do believe and it's what I say to my kids you, you have to follow your dream. If there's something that you want to do, I would much rather look back and regret, or you wouldn't regret and say, oh well, I tried it and it didn't work. I would much rather do that than get to the end and say I wish I tried doing that. Yeah, because you just don't know what great things are going to come out of it. Um, and, and you know, I, I, yeah, I would say go, I would say go for it, I totally would, because I think it is really important that if you've got that passion in you, you try and do it. You try and do whatever it is that you need to do definitely listeners.

Speaker 2: 32:12

It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. What has your journey so far? So your writing journey, because I always say your writing journey and your publishing journey are two different things. But looking at them, taking them as a collective, what has this journey taught you about yourself?

Speaker 1: 32:44

um, I think it's taught me that I'm very resilient, um and that, and also that I think I have a self-belief. I know that we've kind of discussed that you go into certain situations and you think I shouldn't be here or whatever, but, um, I think I had that belief that I could do it, um, and it wasn't just a want to, it was I. I. I thought, no, you know, there's no reason why I can't do this, I just have to keep pushing. So it's taught me that, really more than anything, um, I guess it's taught you know, I guess it's taught me other things along the way. It's taught me, like I've said to you, that I like to, I miss being with other people, that that's a big part of what I do, um, and also that I still like learning. You know, I've I I love.

Speaker 1: 33:47

I'd hate to get to a point where I'm very static in what I'm doing. I think, with every book that you that I write, I'm learning something new, and not just I don't just mean in terms of what I'm researching, but I mean even recently I had a conversation with my publisher about the commercial side of it and I thought, you know, that was something I didn't know, and I love all of that. I love still, I love still learning. I couldn't, I couldn't not do anything at all. And I kind of look to the future and think, oh wonder how many more years I've got in me before I have to give this up. And that's quite a daunting thought as well, isn't it? You think, in 10 years time, I mean, oh god, I don't even want to think what age where I'll be in 10 years time. But will I still be writing? Because you have to adapt, don't you?

Speaker 2: 34:41

depending on your age you do, it becomes harder, almost it becomes harder and I'm always thinking like I'll finish a book. And you know you have that relief of like I'll finish the book I've sent off to my editor. Now you're going through the process, you know what comes next. But then when you have to sit down and okay, let me think about what am I gonna write next? And I'm always thinking, do I have any new ideas? Like, will I get a new idea? That's always. I don't know if that's just part of the process, like forcing you to get into that thinking habit, but that's always the number one thing that pops into my head. Like what am I going to do now? Do I have anything fresh?

Speaker 1: 35:23

yeah, especially like 10 more new ideas. If you're talking about writing for another 10 years, I mean this last one, book nine. I'm contracted to do book nine and book ten. Still, um, I'm on a two, two book contract every time. Oh, it was by far the hardest, the hardest process of coming up with a new idea that I've I've ever had and and everything I think you know I kind of thought, oh well, I've kind of done that in some way or not, and and you know, and I've only written well, this is book nine. You think of, like very prolific writers, like Lisa Jewell or, yeah, others like that, who've written 18, 19, 20 books. And I think, oh, how do you, how do you keep coming up with a new idea?

Speaker 2: 36:13

it's crazy. I think Doroth yeah, dorothy Clemson's on I. I think she's on 21, 22. I think Adele Parks is on 25.

Speaker 1: 36:22

And I'm only on.

Speaker 2: 36:23

yeah, I've just book fours with my editor, so I'll be writing my fifth book and I've got ideas. I know what book five in my series is going to be about. And I've got another idea for Stan. So, okay, I've got three book ideas in the bank, but after that I'm like that's pretty good going. It's pretty good, yeah, I'll accept that it's pretty good going.

Speaker 2: 36:48

But after that I'm like, yeah, I can, I can accept that, I mean, but I'm still thinking, what will I do next? Because I think for me writing police procedurals, I'm always very much aware of the fact that you're always going to be, there's always going to be, certain beats that will always be in a police procedural. So there will always be a chase scene, there will always be an interview scene. It's just they will always have to be there and it's just. Can you create a strong enough story with the characters and the investigation around that so no one gets bored?

Speaker 1: 37:23

So yeah, there's so many different challenges that I don't think anyone else is aware of no, and and that's interesting that you say that about like writing a series and writing a police procedural series and is, I guess that's very different to what I do, which is a standalone book every time and thinking up new characters and and both of them will give that, both of them will bring their own challenges, won't they? Yeah, like you say, you've got to think of different like relationships and different storylines for similar characters and, yeah, for me it's a completely new plot and a completely new relationship and a completely new story. Um, and I don't know which is easier. I don't think anyone's easier if you've got three ideas in the pipeline it's not.

Speaker 2: 38:17

It's nice knowing I have them, it's nice knowing I got those three ideas. But I don't think one route is easier than the other. But then I think people will understand why writers aren't particularly fond of the. So where do you get your ideas? Questions you're like mate, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 38:33

I really don't know no, and sometimes they just come to you and they're like almost fully formed. And I had that with book eight and it was a absolute blessing and it turned out to be a wonderful book to write and I really, really enjoyed it and all went brilliantly. But but yeah, this next one is like being an absolute struggle. It doesn't definitely doesn't get any easier, does it? I don't think. But what I'm also finding is that, like with age, you know, you have to kind of adapt what age group I'm finding, like with my books, I have to kind of adapt what age group I'm, what my, the age of my characters are, because I don't want to write a read about people that are in there. I mean, it's difficult to say, but you know, I guess I'm I'm writing younger, my characters, I'm having to, I'm having to write younger and younger, and I think that's what worries me is like what if I suddenly become out of touch with what 30 and 40 year olds are doing?

Speaker 2: 39:44

no, but I think that's perfectly valid because you know the way we viewed life when I was good, when I was in my 30s or early 40s, and so we're talking, we're talking, we're talking what like mid 2000s to now. Oh no, I was just saying that. I was saying I think it's perfectly valid because the way that I would have viewed life 15 years ago is when I was in my yeah, what? Early 30s, and that whole time period was different. So we're talking like mid 2000s. You know the things that were available to us, how we communicated with people, all of that was different, yeah, and so a 30-year-old's experience back in 2000, and probably it would have been for me 2007, it's going to be completely different to a 30-year-old's experience now, in 2025. So I think it's perfectly valid to have all of those concerns about being out of touch, because no one would even online date. And then, in the early 2000s, no, no, it's really true.

Speaker 1: 40:48

Actually, I think you and you do have a tendency to look back at your own time of life then and to try and replicate that, don't you? Yeah, when you're writing about someone of that age, yeah, it's a really good point. So, yes, in when I'm in my 60s and I'm still trying to knock out a book which many people do brilliantly and you know but, um, goodness knows what we'll I'll be coming up with by then, I think you'll be fine.

Speaker 2: 41:24

Yeah, I think you'll be fine as long as the story.

Speaker 2: 41:27

Yeah, as long as the story is good. I think that's what people want. As long as the story is good. But I think it is. Yeah, but it is, um, yeah, not hard, but it is a concern when you have to think about also having the back of your mind how quickly the world is moving, because you remember, even like with Covid yeah, books five years ago. It's like I don't want to write a book about Covid and then fast forward to now. It's even hard to think that there was a time when we couldn't do anything. And even now that seems kind of dated. If you were going to write about having that Covid experience, I agree, I think, yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker 1: 42:08

Actually, if I ever read it in a book, I think, well, firstly, I don't particularly want to read it in a book or not. That firstly, I don't particularly want to read it in a book or not or not. That it's done in that much detail. But you're right, it's aged so quickly. Yeah, because it was such a part of our lives. And then suddenly, like five years on, it feels like a really distant memory, doesn't it? So, yeah, it is. It is. You have to take all of those things into account, don't you? And you know the speed of technology and technological changes and AI and what the police can do now, and you know and I don't have any of that knowledge that you obviously have with police procedure and detective and that's not firsthand knowledge to me.

Speaker 1: 42:57

So that is another factor that I I really have to make sure that I'm on top of as much as possible, because it's, yeah, it's, it's.

Speaker 2: 43:09

That's one of the other things that I find quite difficult to make sure I get right, but really important do you feel, um, I don't know if it's pressure is the right word, but do you feel that pressure to make sure that it's right when it comes to certain aspects of the book?

Speaker 1: 43:30

yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Um, I mean definitely the detective, definitely the police procedural side of it.

Speaker 1: 43:39

Yes, I do I just, I just don't want it to even even what people call each other, even ranks and what you know how they might speak to each other. It's something that I, as a writer, will only really get from tv, and so, you know, you kind of like make your own form, your own judgment of what people might say. But actually, for the first time ever, what I've done with this last book is give it to. So I have a policeman friend who's just been absolutely amazing throughout from the beginning in terms of going through everything with me. But I've given it to him and he's just read it and I've just said I want you to just read it and say at this stage, is it realistic? Would this happen? Would you actually? You know, so I'm waiting, I'm actually going to have a conversation with him this afternoon, so that would be an interesting one.

Speaker 1: 44:37

But I think for me, yeah, that is really important because, you're kind of right, it's a, it's a big part of the book Getting that bit right and that's why, you know, on the whole, I don't really focus on the police procedure side of it. You know, on the whole, I don't really focus on the police procedural side of it. I I'm more about the relationships between normal everyday people and I try, try to keep that a bit of a distance so that I don't get too bogged down in all of that. Yeah, but yeah, it is important to me, I think, making sure it's right yeah, just before we um, we started recording.

Speaker 2: 45:14

So I do the same thing like the legal, like the legal consultation. So I was having a chat with someone about they just had legal questions about their book and court procedure and things. But I'm always constantly I will say I will give you the law and how things work in practice. But I'm also always like at pains to say you can take creative license because you kind of have to, because I've done it myself. When writing I said you so you don't want to get it wrong and you're so you don't. I don't want anyone emailing me saying well, nadine, you didn't do that and like you should know better, so I so want to get it right, yeah. But I say sometimes you can write yourself into corners because the law and the law and the story doesn't fit together and you have to be confident enough to feel like I can take creative license with it. Not crazy massive ones, yeah, but small ones. That makes it seems, it makes it all seem plausible yeah, yeah, I agree with you.

Speaker 1: 46:14

I think and that is actually my, my Chris, my, my friend. He's very good at saying you know here what he is. He says I'll watch dramas on tv and there's they're completely unrealistic. Oh yeah, kind of go with it. Go with it because it's a drama at the end of the day and it's fiction. And I think then you just have to ignore the people who are quick to point out that I mean, I've had some crazy things pointed out to me as well that I've got wrong. Like this show wasn't actually running in the West End on that, and like, okay, okay, it was every other year and it's like it's funny what people want to. I mean, people are funny, aren't they? I guess if you're reading a book and you notice something's wrong, it kind of does jar a little bit and you go, okay, well, it doesn't to me. Actually, I'll just skip over it, but I'd never go out of my way to tell someone that they got it wrong.

Speaker 2: 47:23

I wouldn't. I just wouldn't because I think because obviously I'm in the business now like I was reading a book and it was a finished copy of a book. It wasn't a proof copy. So the proof copies you know you're expecting to see the missing words, because you know it's uncorrected. But there was a mistake in the final copy and I was just like, oh well, it just, it just got missed. Because it happens, it's happened with my books like seven pairs of eyes have been on the manuscript and it's got to prove 100 and no one yeah, and no one.

Speaker 2: 47:53

Literally it happened to me like no one's seen it until I was read. I think I was doing a reading. Yeah, I was doing an event and they asked me to read what totally unplanned for. But they asked me to read a passage and I picked, just picked up a random chapter and I was like, oh my god, this has been there for years. Oh my god, but lucky no one's telling me yeah, and to me it was. I'm like how could I miss it? How could seven pairs of eyes miss it?

Speaker 1: 48:22

but no one's come to me.

Speaker 2: 48:23

It's crazy yeah, it's crazy, right? So I'm gonna ask you about spelling mistakes. Sorry, go on. Yeah, no, I was just gonna say I've definitely had spelling mistakes.

Speaker 1: 48:32

That's why go on. Yeah, no, I was just going to say I've definitely had spelling mistakes pointed out to me on email before from readers. But you're like, okay, there's nothing much I can do about it, but thanks.

Speaker 2: 48:48

I try, not, I literally when I've had them and I'm just, I just pull a face and I'm like, well, I want to reply, there is absolutely nothing I can do about it right now and do you feel better? But then I just choose to just delete.

Speaker 1: 49:02

You just have to ignore it. You do, you have to ignore it, right?

Speaker 2: 49:07

I'm going to ask you about coffee. We need to talk about you. I've got the proof copy. I haven't got the final copy. Someone is lying right, and I was saying to this before and I don't think it's a spoiler, because it's so many doors in the book like explaining why Jess's husband likes not with her, and this was my response. I think it's always like the best response you want from someone. So when he says he's leaving and you found out why my response was, I'm just gonna swear. I was like who the fuck is Rita? I was like why are you coming up with Rita? And I said it out loud and then I said to myself that is the best response because I think that's what you want from a reader when they're going through your book. They want you want them to be. It's either like a massive verbal outburst that makes them put the book down and you know, shout expletives, or just like, oh my God, so well done. I wasn't impressed with you.

Speaker 1: 50:01

Thank you, I love that, I think. I think I definitely want everybody to be saying that and I think that that just kind of shows that I think that you're in the head of the character when you feel like that doesn't it that you can, it does you know you, you kind of like have that empathy. So that's good, I'll take that you can put it on your.

Speaker 2: 50:20

Tell them to put it on the quote on the blab who the f is.

Speaker 1: 50:24

Rita, you could quote, you could quote on the. You could quote it for the cover. Maybe that should be the title.

Speaker 2: 50:36

I just had to share it because I thought I love. I think I love those moments and if a book doesn't make you get that emotional, then I don't feel like you know it's like you've done such a good job, thank you. So would you like to tell the readers about Someone is Lying?

Speaker 1: 51:03

About Someone is Lying Well, so Someone is Lying is the story of Jess, who is the mother of Izzy, and her and her daughter have a very close bond, a very you know. She's a single mother with her with an only child, and they have a very close bond until Izzy gets to the age of about 16 where she meets Dylan, her boyfriend, and Jess is very, very unsure about Dylan. She doesn't trust him, but she does decide that she has no choice but to let Dylan and Izzy go traveling together, and they do. And then, within a week or two weeks, over the period where Izzy's turning 18, she suddenly stops hearing from her and she knows that something's very wrong and she can't get hold of her daughter and it's. It's this story, then, of what happens thereafter, how it's very difficult to get anybody to believe her that her daughter is in danger and her daughter's missing.

Speaker 1: 51:53

Um, because Izzy's now turned 18 and um, it's kind of like taking a child going missing story and turning it on its head head a bit, in that your daughter's now 18, she's not, she's almost, and she's just turned to be an adult and really, um, it's, it's, it's a very, it's a very different time of of life when you've got teenage daughters who can pretty much do what they want to do and letting them have that freedom but still having that you know, responsibility for them and horrendous knowledge that something's not right and you can't get anyone to believe you. So that's kind of like the crux of the the story, and it's written by Jess. It's also written by Dylan's mother, so it's written by the two mums rather than the kids themselves. Um, yeah, that's, that's kind of like the premise of it can you think of any?

Speaker 2: 52:55

or were there like any, like the major challenge that you had it could be like a big or small one of writing this book. I think there's always something that kind of doesn't. It doesn't have you crying in a corner. What makes you regret your life choices?

Speaker 1: 53:12

um, oh, do you mean when I was like do you mean about writing like a challenge, with writing the actual?

Speaker 2: 53:18

yeah, or yeah, yeah with writing this book.

Speaker 1: 53:21

Yeah, I had a major, major challenge with this book the biggest challenge that I've had with any of my books, really in that I sent it off to my yeah, I sent it off to my agent and editor the first draft and I was so excited about this one, and um, and I always now my lovely agent always emails me straight back after she's read it in about 48 hours and goes, oh my god, I love it. And I didn't hear from her and I thought, oh, okay, this, this doesn't bode well. And we got on a call last summer was it last summer or the summer before? No, it must have been the summer before. Um, and they both said it's not working.

Speaker 1: 54:01

We, we like it, we love the story, we love the premise of it, but the book's not working from like six, forty percent of the way through. They didn't like what had happened, what was the outcome, what had happened to Izzy and Dylan, the way that I'd written it, and so I had this chat with them and I took on board their feedback and basically, my decision was I either scrap the book and write a different one or I have to write 60% of the book again, and it was, it was exactly 60%. I have to write 60% of the book again and it was, it was exactly 60% and I made the decision that I didn't want to forget the story, because I loved the story and you know, I really thought it had something. But I had to completely change 60% of the book and rewrite it.

Speaker 2: 54:49

So yeah, my biggest challenge? Yeah, I wasn't expecting that, I don't know. I thought maybe I don't know what I was expecting, it wasn't my biggest challenge. Yeah, I wasn't expecting that, I don't know. I thought maybe, yeah, I don't know what I was expecting, it wasn't that yeah, that's a lot by far.

Speaker 1: 55:00

That's like the man. It was a lot. Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot and it was also, um, you're kind of like having to write within the confines of something that you've already got. So you've yeah, you've got the premise, you've got the setup. You know, they love the fact that there's um true crime podcasts running through it, which I think I've really enjoyed writing as well, and I thought it added a different element to it.

Speaker 1: 55:24

Um, they love the fact that you know the setup, which is what I've just talked to you about. You know, in terms of what the premise is, I loved all of that. It was just what happens, why, why, why she's disappeared. That's what they didn't like, and so, yeah, it took a massive rethink and, um, but hopefully we've got there. I know that it's a better book than I wrote the first time around. I definitely know that it is and I definitely could see that they were right, but it was interesting how I hadn't seen it until they'd pointed it out. That's what surprised me quite a lot was that I think you can get so caught up in your writing and your story sometimes, can't you?

Speaker 2: 56:06

yeah, you can't see it because it's just you and that story for so long and you battle for so many different things whilst putting that story. You know, coming up with the original premise for the story and then expanding that premise into this is how you work into an outline and then into your draw and it's just you alone for so long and it's like, you know, writing that very first book. There's such relief in right getting to the end and right in the end you just want to get it out and you feel like you know they're going to love, they're going to see what I see, but then they see something completely different and it takes a lot to step back and say, ok, let me take on board what's been said and now change and move on.

Speaker 1: 56:52

Yeah, I was blindsided by it really. I I really didn't expect it and I was quite blindsided by it. But then I. But then I also found it like scarily interesting just how right they were. And like you say you, don't see it when you're in it at the time and it is that old expression of you can't see the wood for the trees when you're, when you're writing at them.

Speaker 1: 57:14

At that point, and and and also, I think you, you know you can go off down a little tunnel of going. Well, that's the end point that I want to get to, and therefore, you just keep writing and writing and you and it, and you don't often stop and go. Is this the best solution? Is this the best way that I can be doing it? Um, so I guess I feel really lucky that they both were able to say to me this isn't working, we're not going to do anything with it, you need to change it yeah, and I think I think it says something.

Speaker 2: 57:48

When you've got two people are both on the same page, you know one was saying yes and the other was saying no. Yeah, I don't know if that would have been worse, but the fact that two individual people have read it and reached the same conclusion says something yeah, right, very much. I'm very aware of time, so I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you your last, final set of questions, and we can make them quick fire. So are you, are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Speaker 1: 58:15

um, I think I'm definitely a hybrid of the two. I think, you know there's there's bits of me that go each way, for sure, okay so what chat and I need to say you want me, that's enough.

Speaker 2: 58:25

No the next one. I need to always. I need to caveat now of saying it can be a good or bad one. Just people automatically think I need to be the worst experience. But no, what challenge or experience in your life, good or bad, shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 58:41

um, I, I believe I think my childhood. Actually, I had a lot of challenges in my childhood and I think that they shaped me quite a lot. They've made me quite a strong, determined person, so that's probably what I would go to.

Speaker 2: 58:57

If you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 59:04

I think I'd give myself lots of pieces of advice at the age of 25. I think I'd say make better decisions in your life, think about the long term more than the short term, um, but they're all probably things that I would never have listened to, um, and I think one of the actually one important thing that I would say to myself is like, look after your health and and and fitness and and start building that up from that age, because another 25 years on, and you realize that you, I should have done a lot earlier it's just so much harder every time I walk up the stairs, heidi, and I'm like there was a time when I could just run upstairs and it didn't bother me.

Speaker 2: 59:45

And now I'm thinking I did I take my glucosamine this morning? No, I did not, because my left knee hurts. It's my little moan exactly that I've already.

Speaker 1: 1:00:00

I've already asked you, your non.

Speaker 2: 1:00:02

I'm always asked now, what is your non-writing tip for writers? So, nothing to do with the writing process, and non, yeah, your non, non-writing that's a really hard one, but but still for writers, right?

Speaker 1: 1:00:15

yeah, yeah um, I mean, does reading count as non-writing? Yeah, my, my tip would be just read everything, and especially read in your genre. I think it is so important to know what, what every other author who sits in the same place as you, who will be sitting in the same place as you on the shelves, is writing and what they're doing, and you know, and just keeping an eye on where the market's going, I think. I think that that cannot be underestimated. Actually.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

Yeah, I think that is good advice. And finally, heidi, heidi, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?

Speaker 1: 1:00:56

um online. I'm on Instagram and Facebook, both under at Heidi Perks author um, and I have. My website has just been refreshed as well, and that's Heidi Perks authorcouk. So yeah, I've got a new sparkly website up and running now, which will hopefully give readers lots of information on my books and more.

Speaker 2: 1:01:20

It's. It's a very nice website, and that just leaves me to say Heidi Perks, welcome, not welcome, thank you. Thank you very much. We've got another hour. Yeah, we've got another hour to go. So, heidi Perks, thank you very much for being part of the conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:01:38

Thank you, it's been brilliant. Thank you, I've enjoyed it.

Speaker 2: 1:01:41

Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadinemathersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.