Coffee Break with S.A. Cosby: King of Ashes

In this episode of 'Coffee Break',  New York Times Bestselling author of Blacktop Wasteland, Razorblade Tears and All The Sinners Bleed, S.A. Cosby joins me to talk about his new book 'King of Ashes'.

Whether you're already a devoted fan or discovering SA Cosby for the first time, this episode offers rare insights into the mind of a writer who continues to redefine contemporary crime fiction while never losing sight of the human heart beating beneath the darkness.

King Of Ashes

A son returning home. A dangerous debt. Secrets about to ignite . . . and a family consumed by flames.

Roman Carruthers left the smoke and fire of his family's crematory business behind in his hometown of Jefferson Run, Virginia. He is enjoying a life of shallow excess as a financial adviser in Atlanta until he gets a call from his sister, Neveah, telling him their father is in a coma after a hit-and-run accident.

When Roman goes home, he learns the accident may not be what it seems. His brother, Dante, is deeply in debt to dangerous, ruthless criminals. And Roman is willing to do anything to protect his family. Anything.

A financial whiz with a head for numbers and a talent for making his clients rich, Roman must use all his skills to try to save his family while dealing with a shadow that has haunted them all for twenty years: the disappearance of their mother when Roman and his siblings were teenagers. It's a mystery that Neveah, who has sacrificed so much of her life to hold her family together, is determined to solve once and for all.

As fate and chance and heartache ignite their lives, the Carruthers family must pull together to survive or see their lives turn to ash. Because, as their father counseled them from birth, nothing lasts forever. Everything burns.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting SA Cosby
• 2:15 King of Ashes: The Carruthers Family
• 5:09 Emotional Impact of Writing Dark Fiction
• 9:28 Character Development and Family Dynamics
• 16:15 Writing Process and Personal Challenges
• 24:36 Influences and Crime Fiction Stakes
• 33:36 The Emotional Ending and What's Next
• 42:16 Final Thoughts and Recommendations

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Conversation Coffee Break with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you're having a really good start to your week. Now, if you don't already know, and in case you need a reminder, coffee Breaks is a brand new segment of the podcast, which is officially starting in September, but I thought I would give you a few taster coffee breaks for the rest of season. Three Coffee breaks are shorter episodes of the podcast where I talk to an author just about their book, and today joining me for a coffee break is New York Times bestselling author SA Cosby. Sa Cosby is the author of Blacktop, wasteland, razorblade Tears and All the Sinners Bleed. All the Sinners Bleed is being adapted by Netflix and we'll be talking about his brand new book, which is, if you're listening today, on Monday, is out tomorrow, on the 10th of June, and if you're listening after the 10th of June, it's out now. We're talking about King of Ashes, sa Cosby. Now we're talking about king of ashes, sa cosby.

Speaker 1: 1:09

He's amazing, he really is, and he's also my mate, so it was an absolute pleasure to talk to him today, so I hope that you enjoy our coffee break. Oh, and before I go, before I start, can I just remind you, if you really enjoy the coffee break and you really enjoy the full conversation podcast, could you please consider buying me a cup of coffee? And you can do that simply by going to the links in the show notes. It's up to you how many cups of coffee you buy, but your support will go a long way to make sure, well, the conversation keeps on going and that we can continue to meet like this. So normally for the conversation, I will say let's sit back, we'll go for a walk, but instead grab a cup of coffee or tea and enjoy your break. Sa Cosby, welcome to the conversation.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Coffee break thank for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Right, we're going to talk about your brand new book, king of Ashes, so do you want to tell the listeners of the Coffee Break about the King of Ashes?

Speaker 2: 2:17

Okay, so basically, king of Ashes is my new book. It is the story of the Carruthers family Oldest brother Roman, middle sister Nevaeh, baby brother, brother Dante. As the book opens, roman is returning home from living in Atlanta, georgia, and he gets a call that his father has been in a car accident and he's in a coma and that he needs to come home to assist with the family business. When he gets home, he finds out that the car accident may not have been an accident, because his baby brother, dante, owes quite a bit of money to some dangerous criminals who you do not want to owe money to. And so that begins our journey with the Carruthers family, trying to help or follow Roman as he tries to help his brother get out of this debt.

Speaker 2: 2:57

Meanwhile, his baby, his middle sister Nevaeh, who has been running the family business with their father, is investigating the disappearance of their mother when they were teenagers. Their mother, bonita, disappeared and was never seen again, and everybody in their small Virginia town thinks that their father killed her because she was having an affair. And so we journey with them as they try to deal with this criminal aspect with these gangsters, but also trying to deal with the trauma and the mystery of their mother, uh missing, uh going missing so many years ago so you know, with this book, would you say, your writing experience of king of ashes was different to blacktop wasteland and all the sinners bleed oh yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2: 3:42

It was so funny because I've had people ask me in interviews like your books are so dark and you know how do you deal with it, do you? How do you process it? And most of the time I'm just like you know, I write a book, you know, and I kill like 12, 15 people and I go play with my cat. You know I don't play to bother me. But king of ashes was the first book. I know it doesn't and I don't know if that says about me as a person, but, uh, king of ashes was the first book that, um, it bothered me, like I think, because in most of my other books, whenever, whenever there's violence or evil, I know that my main characters, whether they're heroes or anti-heroes, will, you know, see the day, they will be able to get revenge, or the villains will get their comeuppance.

Speaker 2: 4:25

In king of ashes is different because the family dynamics and the secrets that this family holds, there's not really a comeuppance, there's not really a vengeance that has to be exacted. It's just dealing with the reality of this family dynamic, of these sibling relationships and what these secrets mean. And so there was a resolution, but it was a resolution. That was tragic, and so for me, really it got to me. I had to like watch. You know, I had to watch cartoons and stuff for a couple weeks to kind of come down off of that see, I've only ever felt that way that I need to decompress.

Speaker 1: 5:01

When I've worked on like really, really serious cases for a long period of time and I'm not, I need to goress. When I've worked on like really, really serious cases for a long period of time and I'm not, I need to go home and just do the. I just need to see something, or even read something the complete opposite but I haven't. I don't think I've reached that point with my books yet. Maybe if I write something different for me, I'll get there. Right, how did you? Was it a surprise, though, that you felt that way?

Speaker 2: 5:29

Yeah, I was. I was very surprised. Like I said, I've written a serial killer book. I've written, you know, revenge novels. I've written very you know, dark crime fiction. I've never felt that way and like this was unusual. It was like it made me feel like these characters. I felt bad putting them through what I put them through, and I don't usually feel like that. But you know, uh, it really. It really was something. Like I said, I had to sort of walk away from it, sort of reevaluate. But then after I was able to reevaluate, able to decompress, I went back and read the book again and I'm really proud of it.

Speaker 2: 5:59

I think you know every book. I feel I feel like I'm doing what I do well, as well as I can do it, and so I felt that way about all the centers. I felt that way about razor blade. I felt a way about blacktop, my darkest prayer with king of ashes. I really do feel like everything is sort of coalesced around the story that I'm trying to tell, like the things I feel like I don't say excel at because I think the eotistical, but the things I feel like I do well't want to say excel at because I think they're de-artistical, but the things I feel like I do. Well, I think.

Speaker 1: 6:26

I'm pretty good with dialogue.

Speaker 2: 6:27

I think I'm pretty good with setting and character and it felt like in King of Ashes all those things were all firing on all cylinders, and so I'm proud of the book.

Speaker 2: 6:35

It is very dark and I have had some concern about how people would respond to it, but I've seen early reviews and people seem to be responding to it very positively, which is good. The story is tragic, but the tragedy comes from the fact that the three siblings love each other so much, and they do. It's not a toxic or dysfunctional relationship, it's a family relationship, and that family relationship is very rooted in both their love for each other and the secrets they hold from each other, and so the tragedy doesn't work if they don't legitimately care about each other. There are moments in the book where they're just being siblings and they're, you know, busting each other's chops but also telling each other how much they love each other, how much they care about each other, and they not just show it, say it, but they show it. And so when the tragedy comes, it feels so profound because you know that these characters do love each other, they do care about each other. They just have a difficult time communicating, and I think that's relatable, hopefully, to a lot of different people.

Speaker 1: 7:34

You know when you was writing King of Ashes. Are you able to, I'm gonna say, put aside the success that you've had with the other books? Are you able to completely ignore that, or does it, or is it still like white noise in your head? It's terrifying because you know I wasn't expecting that sometimes.

Speaker 2: 7:57

Sometimes I feel like the dog who chased the car and caught it, you know. And then what do you do? How? You know, what's your what, what's your, what's the next step?

Speaker 2: 8:04

For me, I feel like my books, people connect with them. In a way I feel proud of them. I don't want to, I don't want to drop or have a dip in quality. I don't want to have, I don't want to have people's expectations not be met. So I give everything I have to these books. So the success of the books is sort of I wouldn't say ignorance, but it's definitely something. It's like a, it's like a shadow looking over my shoulder because, you know, I want to make sure I write the best book I can. I mean, I want to do well for myself, no-transcript, want them to feel like I was half stepping, you know, and so I bring the heat. I try to anyway, and sometimes bringing the heat means stuff gets dark, stuff is violent, stuff is very emotional. But I never want to leave a book or finish a book feeling like, well, it was OK, I gave it everything I got, you know, and hopefully people will see that when they read it.

Speaker 1: 9:18

Yeah, ok. So, sean, what came to you first with the King of Ashes? Was it the characters, a specific scene, the overall premise or something completely different?

Speaker 2: 9:29

It was a specific scene. So there's a scene in the book where and this is not a spoiler, I'm not going to say which character it is but there's a character being tortured and he's being tortured in a dog kennel right and he's having these dogs just they are just chewing up on his legs, man. And I saw there's a movie which I have a very complicated relationship with called Pulp Fiction. I'm not going to get into that now, but I have a very complicated relationship with Pulp Fiction and so there are things in Pulp Fiction I really love and there are things in Pulp Fiction I really hate. Paul fiction I really love and there are things in paul fiction I really hate and anyway. But there's a throwaway line at the end of paul fiction where marcellus wallace says to one of his underlings uh, they're trying to get information about a character named butch, and they're like take the trainer down to the kennel and set the dogs on and we'll see what he know and what he don't know. And that line has always sounded so dark and so esoteric to me, and so I just had this image of a guy out in a barn in the middle of nowhere getting dogs set on him, and I was like I started thinking like why would he have those dogs at him? Who owns the dogs? And so it sort of just grew from there and I was able to actually incorporate that scene in the full finished copy of the book. But that's sort of where it came from.

Speaker 2: 10:40

And then it just sort of mushroomed from there because I'm like, well, what would necessitate somebody having to torture somebody like that, and who are these characters? And so on and so forth. And then it just popped in my head, oh, he knows something about this family, um, and it just kind of rolled from there and so the characters came out of sort of this idea of family and family dynamics, like I I think for me I have have a brother and we're pretty close, but I do understand that in our family we have been given certain roles, right, and sometimes you're given roles that you didn't ask for, but you're given it anyway. And so that kind of sort of melded with that image like what kind of family is this? Who are these people, what roles have been given, and all these roles that they willingly accepted, and so it kind of just grew from there. So then the crime aspect sort of came after the sort of idea about the family dynamics yeah, I always say when people ask you know, where did you get your inspiration from?

Speaker 1: 11:36

I'm saying it. Normally it starts with a scene, but then it's not necessarily the whole scene, it's the questions that follow on from the scene, because you are then asking the who, what, why, when, and then you know, whilst whilst me I'm walking around the house, I'm in the kitchen, I'm trying to answer those questions why, why has he said this and who is he? And then that's what then brings on the rest of the story yeah, definitely, that's what that's for me too.

Speaker 2: 12:04

Like you know, once I get the characters, what are they doing, what do they want, why do they want it, and how far are they willing to go to get it? Those are the things I like to answer.

Speaker 1: 12:12

If I can answer those questions, then I can start yeah, okay, so which character surprised you the most whilst writing?

Speaker 2: 12:22

Nevaeh the sister, because I wanted her to be strong. I really do work really hard to make really strong female characters. I don't want my female characters to be sidekicks or trophies or what have you. I want them to have agency.

Speaker 2: 12:39

And so Nevaeh, in my mind, when I first started writing about her, she felt kind of bitter, but she had a right to be bitter. You know, roman, who's the oldest brother, has gone on to atlanta and living this wonderful life. Dante is the baby brother. He's irresponsible, he drinks and takes drugs and parties all the time and she was the one holding the family business together. And so at first she felt very bitter.

Speaker 2: 13:03

But then, when I was writing her, I understood that a, a, she has a right to her bitterness. But also, b, she's not bitter, she's sad, you know. And once I understood that and I understood why she was sad, then it made her a much more complete character, much more rounded character. You know, in the book she's in a very toxic relationship and there's a scene in the book where she ends that relationship in a very public, very visceral way. And I'm going to tell you I wrote that scene, but I was cheering her on the whole time. I was like, yes, tell that so-and-so off, and I liked it and it showed her strength, it showed her determination and also her ability to not wallow in self-loathing and sort of pull herself out.

Speaker 1: 13:49

And.

Speaker 2: 13:50

I was surprised, but I was pleasantly surprised by that.

Speaker 1: 13:53

You know, I do like those moments when you're writing the scene but you're then interacting the scene. You turn into those annoying people in a cinema who are like shouting at the film. I did it with Henley and I was like what are you doing? I'm like no, no, do it. I'm like, yes, Even though I'm writing it, but I love those moments.

Speaker 2: 14:12

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 14:16

Sean, what's the most random fact you now know because of this book? Most human cremated remains way between three and ten pounds you know, I don't even know why I'm pulling a face right, because I didn't think I don't know. Maybe you're gonna give me a fact about geography, but no, it's a deformation and that doesn't bother me. He's watching me. I'm like I'm holding. If I had pearls, I'll be clutching my pearls right now. Is that all free? Was it three pounds between?

Speaker 2: 15:04

three and ten pounds. So Between three and ten pounds, so anywhere from three to ten pounds. That's not on average, yeah, but that's what that's funny, because that's the sum total of a human body after it's been immolated, which is so interesting to me. Now, if someone's the larger, obviously probably way more, but that's the average. Which I just found fascinating when I was doing research on this.

Speaker 1: 15:28

Yeah, that's good to tell you a story about when my uncle Charlie got cremated, and this is how weird my brain is. So we're in the crematorium and so we're in there and what I couldn't get, because you know the coffin disappears through the curtains. I know it's about to go, but I just get, because you know the coffin disappears through the curtains. I know it's about to go, but I just couldn't understand why the place was so cold. I was like this crematorium is freezing. I was like it should not be cold because clearly there's a fire. Oh god, there's a fire. Oh God, sean, we'll pull ourselves together. Sean.

Speaker 1: 16:15

Right, you know, before we started recording, we were talking about having our fan base and readership. So for a lot of people now, you are their go-to author. So when they know you've got a new book out, they're out there pre-ordering which've got a new book out. They're out there pre-ordering which is what you want. But they're out there pre-ordering, they're ready to go and they're following you every move. Who is your go-to author? Who's the person you're going to hit that pre-order button for?

Speaker 2: 16:38

oh man, I have three. I have three, uh, one is jordan harper I knew he was to say him. I'll read his laundry list. I'll read his grocery list. I'll read his scribbling that he did on the train. The next one is Dennis Lane. I'll read anything Dennis Lane will write. And I think the third one is Walter Mosley. Anytime Walter has a new book out, I don't even ask what the plot is. I just hit pre-order. I got to have it.

Speaker 1: 17:07

How does it make you feel, I suppose, like if you'd known back when you'd written, maybe like my Darkest Prayer, everyone is writing your short stories and things. How would you feel, knowing that you was going to become someone's go to? How do you feel about that now?

Speaker 2: 17:24

It's daunting because, again, like I said, I don't. I'm not a people pleaser but, like I said, again, I come from that blue-collar background. You know, honest days work for honest wage, and so I wouldn't want to disappoint that person. I wouldn't want to disappoint anyone that reads my books. You know, like you know, they always tell us don't read your reviews and stuff. You know we always do anyway. And you know, you know they always tell us don't read your reviews and stuff. You know we always do anyway.

Speaker 2: 17:50

And you know I try to read the negative reviews sometimes to see is there legitimate right? Is there something that I need to work on? You know, is there something I need to do? Um, you know, and and, and. Sometimes there is something in there like, oh well, you know, maybe next time I'll work on that a little better. But you know I I never want to read one where somebody is like, oh, this book really disappointed me, or I didn't finish it, or whatever. And so for me, if I had known in the past, I think it would have been so daunting. I don't know if I could, I don't know if I would continue writing, because it was like I would have been. I would have psyched myself out about it, you know so.

Speaker 1: 18:19

Yeah, it's a big weight to have on your shoulders, I suppose, isn't it? It's that, it's that weight of expectation.

Speaker 2: 18:25

It really is. It's like with King of Ashes, like you were saying. Somebody once said to me I said it was dark. They were like well, your last book was a serial killer book. Yeah, that was dark, but that was dark with a hint of optimism at the end. It's not a tragedy All of a sudden. This bleed is a mystery, but it ends on an optimistic note. Titus is probably the one objectively good character I've ever written. He's human. He has his faults. Anybody who's read the book will attest to his faults. I had a lady tell me in a book signing she's like I love Titus but he had no business going to see his ex-girlfriend. I know, I know.

Speaker 1: 19:06

He really did have no business doing that. I remember reading it and I'm like, seriously, seriously, titus, this is what you're doing. Okay, all right, let me just turn the page.

Speaker 2: 19:16

But I did that to show that he's human. He's not perfect, but with the characters in King of Ashes they're very much shades of gray and so you know again, it's, it's a, it's a tragedy. I mean, that's not a spoiler, it's a dark story and I think for me, um it, acknowledging that and understanding that goes a long way to hopefully the readers understanding it and accepting it. You know, um, you know we all love stories, we're all storytellers, you know, and I love, you know, we all love stories, we're all storytellers, you know, and I love, you know, like Shakespeare, I love Shakespeare, so I love, you know, a Midsummer Night's Dream, but I also love, you know, king Lear, and so I think you can have both in your oeuvre if you will.

Speaker 1: 19:57

But you know you're talking about showing the flaws of your characters. It's like the characters are human and you do want you want them to come across as being real. Characters are human and you do want you want them to come across as being real and you want your readers to have a reaction to that, whether it's a visceral one or if it's one where they just want to throw the book across the room. You do want them to have a reaction. So you do have to give them those flaws and those dreams and also the failed dreams and all of those sort of things.

Speaker 2: 20:23

Oh yeah, definitely I think, and I think the flaws make people connect with the characters. You know, I used to read. There used to be a series of books back in the day. There was a spy thriller. It's called the mac boleyn series, right, and mac boleyn was basically america's james bond, but also kind of john wayne, and you know he was tough. You know women wanted him, men wanted to be him, and you know, and, and you know those books were good when I was a kid. But you know, when women wanted him, men wanted to be him, and you know, and, and you know those books were good when I was a kid. But you know, when you become an adult, those books can be kind of boring, because you know who wants to read about a perfect guy that there's no stakes in a book like that, because you know he's always going to win.

Speaker 2: 20:58

I like books where you know it's a little muddled Are they going to win, and is everybody going to survive? Muddled? Are they going to win and is everybody going to survive? You know, um, I can't remember what book it was, but one time I read a book and the dust jacket said you know, uh, it was like a fantasy novel, but it was like a great adventure. Um, that will, uh, for those who survive, right, and I love that sort of idea like, oh, everybody's not going to make it, you know, not everybody's going to be at the award ceremony. I've got to read this it reminds me of Walking Dead.

Speaker 1: 21:29

You might see memes of they've shown the original group in the Walking Dead, the original group of survivors, and then you get to the end and literally I think the only ones left is Rick and Carol and Daryl, and that's it and everyone else in that original group, even this kid, and that's it and everyone else in that original group, even this kid. Even Carl's gone and it's that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 21:50

We will make it.

Speaker 2: 21:53

Yeah, and I think it allows readers and viewers to have stakes. I think stakes makes books exciting. I'll say this because of my most recent book. All of a sudden, this bleed. I think people know Titus is the lead character, he's probably going to make it, but everybody else is on the chopping block, including people he cares about, including people he loves, and so I really worked hard to create that sense of anybody can get it, and I tried to do that with King of Ashes and even in King of Ashes, you know, and even in King of Ashes I hope it ups the ante, because these are siblings, so the fact that they're on a chopping block makes it even more nerve wracking, more stakes involved, and I think you I think, as a thriller writer, as a crime writer, you have to do that, unless you're writing a cozy, you know you know a cozy.

Speaker 1: 22:55

You know, you know cozy. Everybody can just, at the end of the book, have a, have a, a cosmopolitan, or apple, or appetite, and call it a day. I was gonna say a cup of tea and a cream cake, but no, an appetizer. Same business, same thing. So you probably answered this question already, though, but was king of ashes harder or easier to write than all the sinners bleed, and why it?

Speaker 2: 23:10

started out being easier, but by the time I got to the middle and I knew what some of the twists and some of the revelations are going to be, it got real hard. I would say the two hardest books I've ever written are King of Ashes and Raised Away Tears, because not everybody makes it to the awards ceremony for those books. It was difficult, I think, with characters in Blacktop Wasteland how can I put this? Those characters are in the life. In America sometimes we use the life you know what I'm saying Like in America, sometimes we use the life as a euphemism for criminal underworld.

Speaker 1: 23:51

Yeah, same, there they're in the life, the characters in the life.

Speaker 2: 23:53

Yeah, they kind of know the risk that they're taking With Razorblade. Those two characters used to be in the life, buddy Lee and Ike, but they've gotten out, they've escaped, and so me putting them back in it was difficult because, you know, it's like it's almost like an addict. They fall off the wagon in that book, so to speak, you know. But Ike has a line in there that he didn't want to start on a mission of revenge, not because he was afraid to spill blood, but because he was afraid he couldn't stop. And so it was sort of for me hard to put them in that predicament With King of Ashes. These are not characters that are criminals, these are regular. You know, roman's a financial advisor. His family runs a crematorium. They're regular people, and so for me to insert them into this world it felt a little hard, it felt a little difficult. I was, you know, and it made it. When I got half to the halfway point I realized this is really dangerous, like these people are in real danger. This isn't, you know, fake gangsters and want to be tough guys. This is real serious stuff, people going to die and it made me feel like, wow, these characters are in a very precarious situation and so. But then I had to keep writing it in a way that was truthful and honest and raw, because if you do anything less than that, then you're doing a disservice to the characters and to the readers. So yeah, both of those are probably my most difficult book.

Speaker 2: 25:12

I liked writing all this in this book because at my heart I'm a mystery junkie. I love writing mysteries. I love mysteries, I love locker room mysteries. I had the opportunity to write a short story for Goldsboro Gold Gold's book uh, their uh anniversary anthology which is a really fun locker room mystery to write. So with Titus, my favorite, I had fun. You know it sounds terrible because it's a book about serial killers, but I had fun. When Titus like figured it out, like when he has that sort of parole moment where he figures it all out, that was exciting to me. Like when he put the clues together and everything locked into place, I was like, yeah, that's fun. There's not a lot of fun parts in Razorblade. Even when the truth comes to light, it's very painful.

Speaker 2: 25:55

So, yeah, both of Razorblade and also I think both of these books deal with grief in a different way, so that was kind of difficult. So yeah, they were way harder to write than All of a Sudden. All of a Sudden was kind of fun, especially the last 20 pages. You know it was like, yeah, let's mess some stuff up.

Speaker 1: 26:12

But you know, when we were talking, before we started recording, he was asking me what I was up to and I was explaining to you how it's taken me all day just to write like 10 words. And I think it's because what I'm working working on now because it's not a Henley book and the characters, like you said, the character I was writing in this scene she's not in that life and to me I felt like I was putting her at risk and I'm exposing her and I didn't feel comfortable doing that because she's not about that life, whereas Henley, that is her life in a sense because she works on the other side.

Speaker 1: 26:45

But that is her life in a sense because you know she works on the other side, but that is her life. So I was like, yeah, I felt like I'm showing you, I'm, you know, I'm showing everyone all of her business and I'm like just no, she doesn't need to know that about her exactly no, I feel like that.

Speaker 2: 26:59

You know, there's a scene early on in King of Ashes it's not a spoiler where Roman meets the gangsters that Dante owes the money to, and Dante is trying to explain to him that these are very dangerous people. They're no joke, and Roman has a little bit of hubris because he's telling himself it's just another negotiation. I do this all day, every day. I'm a financial advisor. I know how to talk to these people and something happens during that meeting that makes him realize oh, no, no, these are real gangsters. I deal with wannabe rap stars and all that down in Atlanta. No, these are the real deal. These are wolves and I'm in the den with wolves. And it's a moment where he's in real danger and something happens. He gets hurt. They don't get out of that unscathed, and so for me, to your point, yeah, I had that same feeling that you had.

Speaker 1: 27:51

I'm not going to ask you to say what happens, but you know it reminds me of you've seen Ozark, right with Jason Bateman you know the very first episode of Ozark, when they're doing the negotiations and then he realizes oh, these are the people we're dealing with, because your friend's now in a vat of acid. Sorry if you've never seen it, but that's what happens?

Speaker 2: 28:14

Oh, you know, I've seen it. And the first episode of Ozark, that first scene when a Samo Morales character shows up, yeah, and you see it on Jason. When a Samo Morales character shows up, and you see it on Jason. And Jason Neiman is such a good actor, you see it on his face. It was sort of you understand that it was an abstract thing. Oh, we're cleaning money for criminals. No, now they're here. Now they're here and you may not go home tonight. And so Roman has a scene like that, a moment in that, where he does and he realizes these are not people to play with, you know. And so, uh, you know I'm not gonna say what happens, but he definitely, uh, looks in the mirror the next day and realizes he's not in kansas anymore those are always great.

Speaker 1: 28:53

Those are great moments to write, though it's when your character realizes you know, oh, this is what this is what this game's about. Okay, exactly what am I gonna do now? Because the thing is they normally they can't run, you know?

Speaker 2: 29:03

oh, this is what this game's about. Okay, exactly.

Speaker 1: 29:04

What am I going to do now? Because the thing is they normally they can't run. They can't because you have no book, so they can't run. Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 2: 29:13

Oh, yeah, yeah definitely so, sean.

Speaker 1: 29:16

without giving away any spoilers, did the book end the way you originally planned or did it surprise you?

Speaker 2: 29:27

It didn't end the way you originally planned, or did you? Or did it surprise you? It didn't end the way I originally planned because a lot of this book, a lot of this book, takes its influence from the godfather uh, as a spiritual influence, not a beat for beat influence. Yeah, because I'm fascinated not so much with the godfather and the mafia, I'm fascinated with michael corleone. I'm fascinated with a character who's smart, who's intelligent, who finds out that he's ruthless. And I'm fascinated with Michael Corleone. I'm fascinated with a character who's smart, who's intelligent, who finds out that he's ruthless. And I'm fascinated with the idea of what happens when you find out you have a special skill at something that's terrible, right and being a criminal, you know. And so I definitely had an idea of how I wanted the book to end, because I wanted to pay, and people who have read the book by the time this comes out, I wanted to pay a slight homage to the Godfather, because there's something that happens at the end. But it didn't surprise me.

Speaker 2: 30:08

I think what surprised me was my reaction to it. I already had the plot ending in my head. I knew how it was going to go. But then, when I was writing it, when I was actually writing the sort of final, you know denouement, I cried. It was so heavy, it was so hard, it was yeah, I did. It was so heavy and so painful for the characters and their pain felt palatable and I was like, wow, I can't believe I'm putting these people through this. You know, this is terrible, you know, and it was funny because, like I said before, in a lot of my books you have a physical confrontation at the end of the book that sort of solves everything. That doesn't really happen. The confrontation at the end of the book is very emotional and, like in real life, it doesn't end, you just stop talking. You know what I'm saying. And so for these characters there's no conclusion really. They just stop talking to each other, they go their separate ways, and that was very sort of emotionally draining, in a good way, as a creator.

Speaker 1: 31:06

I don't think I've ever cried. I mean, I've hit the red wine afterwards, but I don't think I've cried no.

Speaker 2: 31:13

I cried and I mean not boo-hoo, but I was tearing up. I was tearing up, yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:24

I think that says something, though that if you can get that emotional about the characters and the story you've written, imagine how your readers are going to feel. Oh yeah, definitely, definitely, because reader reactions are great when they come back. Now, I can't believe they did this, I can't believe they did that and oh, I thought I was going to hate everyone in Razorblade 2, but I love them did this. I can't believe they did that and oh, I thought I was gonna hate everyone in razor blade I don't know if we can curse on here, but I gotta tell you a comment.

Speaker 2: 31:49

We can curse a person on instagram. A person on instagram and I don't know her real name, but I think her name on instagram is brit's books or britain books. Um, lovely young lady, she, she get her. Yeah, she gave a review of king of ashes and she said and this is my favorite review of anything I've ever written so far. She said y'all, the last 50 pages of this book. My heart was in my ass. I didn't know what was going on. That's my favorite review of all time.

Speaker 1: 32:23

I love that. I love that. So, sean, did you ever hit the wall when writing King of Ashes and how did you get past it?

Speaker 2: 32:32

oh, yeah, yeah. I think when I hit that halfway point, I had certain concerns about being able to create and maintain a tone that was both both suspenseful but also emotional, and I ended up talking to a friend of mine. I ended up talking to Jordan Harper. We're friends, I mean, I admire him as a writer, but we're also friends and he gave me a good piece of advice. He said you know. He said you know, it doesn't have to be as good as anything else you have ever written. It just gotta be good, you know. So I got through that idea of like, oh, is this going to be as good as all the centers? Is this as good as Razorblade? Is it better? Where am I at on the scale? You don't have to worry about it, it's just got to. This got to be good within this moment, this specific moment that you're in.

Speaker 1: 33:15

So you know, when I've spoken spoken to authors on this podcast, both on, I'll say, the usual one, the conversation on coffee break. No one I don't think anyone's ever gone into the next book. They're writing thinking, yeah, it's all gonna be a breeze, they there's all. Doesn't matter how successful they've been with their earlier books. It's always oh, my god, can I do this again? And then you just have to tell yourself you just need to write this book, you just need to write this story and we'll just work through that yeah, definitely I think that's true.

Speaker 2: 33:50

I think every, every book is the book that you're writing now, and that's the book that's the most important one yeah, sean.

Speaker 1: 33:57

What are you working on next? I know, I know already I am.

Speaker 2: 34:02

I'm currently I'm currently working on an adaptation of luke cage, uh, for marvel, uh, in the middle of that right now, um, but my next crime novel? I have two ideas. I actually just had a meeting with my editor about it, so I'll give you the cliff notes version, uh, elevator pitch of both ideas. I haven't picked one, which one it is yet. So one idea is tentatively titled bound. Not one idea is tentatively titled bound not by blood.

Speaker 2: 34:29

It's about two best friends. One's an artist, he makes stained glass windows. The other one's a hitman. They've been friends since best friends since they were kids. And at the beginning of book they're going on their annual fishing trip and they get a call from a young lady they knew in the past that her son is missing and she needs to find him because she needs him for a medical procedure to save her life. And she also tells them oh, and, by the way, one of you guys might be the dad. So they go on a road trip to find this kid. But also they also sort of are analyzing and trying to understand their friendship and maybe the fact that their friendship is coming to an end. And so that's one book idea.

Speaker 2: 35:04

The other one is called, tentatively titled Highway Full of Night, and it's about a young man set in the late 80s, early 90s, and about a young man in Virginia who's a getaway driver who may be or may be not related to another getaway driver and he has to get out of Virginia.

Speaker 2: 35:21

So he has a friend who's going to LA to be a musician. And so the friend tells him hey, ride along with me, keep my van running and you can come to LA with me. And when he gets to LA, he finds out that, you know, there's a whole big, wide world that he never knew about, you know. And he meets these artists and he meets an actress or an aspiring actress. But he also meets some gangsters and he meets a young lady who is uh, uh with those gangsters. So he's torn between these two young ladies, he's torn between two uh types of life that he can have, and so, uh, we kind of see how he uh navigates that uh and uh. That's uh, the two ideas that I have. I haven't decided which one I'm going to write first, but I know I'm going to eventually, hopefully, write both of them.

Speaker 1: 36:00

So sean right, you may have heard me, the listeners will have heard me. I may have gasped because when you said he may or may not be related to a getaway driver and I was like, oh, I know.

Speaker 2: 36:19

Yeah, so that I don't want to say any more about it.

Speaker 1: 36:22

But that's you know that's maybe something on the horizon. Oh my God, I'm so, so excited. You haven't even written a word yet. But but, sean, have you ever resisted a temptation? Because you good thing is, you write standalones, right um, have you fought against the request to go back? To return to, um, I was gonna say clients, not you know what's funny.

Speaker 2: 36:41

I'll say this as we wrap things up. I was very adamant when I first started writing. I didn't want to write series, I wanted to write standalones, I wanted to write books that were just snapshots of a character's life. And I'm going to tell you, every couple of days I get an email from somebody or a message from somebody that's like please bring Titus back, what's Titus doing? We want to see Titus, we want to have another adventure with Titus. And I kind of resisted and resisted and resisted. And then I was going back. We all have these things.

Speaker 2: 37:14

I was going back through some old files, ideas. I saw an idea that was not a Titus idea, but I kind of thought, hmm, could I reconfigure this to make it a Titus book and how would I bring Titus back and what would it look like? And I started thinking well, you know, at the end you know spoiler alert, he's not. I don't want to spoil things, but there's a certain thing that happens at the end of All Saints Bleed I'm like, how would I bring it back? What would be the circumstances? Like, I'm like, how would I bring it back? What would be the circumstances? Like, hmm, and I started thinking about Red Dragon right and I started thinking about Will Graham and how Will Graham comes back into the fold. So you know, maybe there'll be a Titus book in the future. We can catch up with it.

Speaker 1: 37:54

When I finished All the Sinners Bleed, I closed the last page and it just felt like he will come back. I said whether or not Sean wants to bring him back it's a different story, but I just feel like this is a character. He will come back and this is this is the character people will ask for yeah, people have asked for him, so I don't know.

Speaker 2: 38:17

I like to catch up with him maybe. Maybe he's getting some sleep finally, because you know, all through the running joke, all of a sudden he's bleeding. He never gets any sleep because he tries not to dream, so yeah, oh, oh god.

Speaker 1: 38:29

You know what's funny. I was talking. There's another author, tarakash kanani, who wrote the midnight king, and we were talking about playing video games and also watching characters and just thinking has this person slept yet? Have they eaten? It's like the things you think about. It's thinking has this person slept yet? Have they eaten? It's like the things you think about. It's like because you didn't care. I'm like, you need to eat. You need to sleep. Sean. What message or feeling do you hope readers take away?

Speaker 2: 38:57

from King of Ashes. I think people, I hope people take the feeling away that you know, it's not enough to love your family, to love your siblings. You've got to learn how to communicate, You've got to learn how to open yourself up to the people that share the womb with you. You know.

Speaker 1: 39:12

Yeah, actually I'm not going to end it just yet because I need to ask you this, because you posted something on I think it was Friday yesterday, about the Netflix adaptation right Of all, the Simmers bleed. How does that feel, knowing that this book you wrote, titus, is going to be on screens?

Speaker 2: 39:39

Scary, exciting and just so honored, so honored.

Speaker 1: 39:45

Yeah, are you involved? Are you writing it or are you just letting it go?

Speaker 2: 39:50

I'm not writing it. I'm not writing it, I'm letting it go. But I have an executive producer credit, which all that means is I get to look at scripts and be like, hmm, that's good.

Speaker 1: 40:02

And finally, sean, to end our coffee break which book, film, show or video game do you recommend?

Speaker 2: 40:10

Oh gosh. Book she Rides Shotgun by Jordan Harper. Not enough people have read it. Video game I'm old school. I love LA Noire. I just love that game. I've played it through a bunch of times. Movie Hell of High Water is one of my favorite movies of all time. Both Chris Pine, Ben Foster and Chris Pine were robbed with not getting Oscar nominations for that movie. It's an amazing modern American western with one of the most tense standoffs at the end I've ever seen.

Speaker 1: 40:48

I just love that movie. I watched that film a couple of years ago and it was one of these ones. It kind of felt like it flew under the radar because I felt like I saw it being advertised and it disappeared. It might have been last year. I watched it and I was like, oh my god, even you talk about a standoff scene. That is the edge of your seat.

Speaker 2: 41:11

Yeah, that's a good recommendation anybody who's seen it, anybody who's seen that? When he says you know, I mean he said I ain't never killed nobody in my whole life. But if you want me to start with you, man, why don't you see if you can reach that boot, for I blow you off this roof, off this porch. It's so good. I know the whole speech. I know the whole scene. I got it memorized. I love it. I can't do it now because I got to run, but it was so much fun. I'm hoping I'm coming back to the UK this fall. We got to get together. We got to have our annual pub drink. One of my favorite memories was hanging out with you and all the folks in Harrogate a couple years ago I had a blast.

Speaker 1: 41:59

We had a great time. We will do that. We will catch up we will have drinks. Sa Cosby, thank you for joining me for the coffee break.

Speaker 2: 42:08

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 42:11

And that's it for this coffee break. Thank you so much for joining me. Starting from season four, we'll be bringing you regular coffee breaks 20-minute episodes, perfect for a quick chat with your favourite authors about their latest books. And here's the fun part next season, we're answering your questions. If there's something you've always wanted to ask an author, send it in Email, your question to theconversation at nadinemattersoncom, and we might just answer it in a future episode with a special shout out to you. Of course, until next time, keep reading, keep listening, and I'll see you soon for another coffee break. Oh and before I forget, don't forget subscribe, follow, like, review and share this episode with your friends. Your support keeps the podcast growing and if you head down to the show notes, you can also support the podcast by buying us a cup of coffee. The links are in the show notes. Bye.