The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Ewoyn Ivey: The Slush Pile, Pulitzer Prize and Fairy Tale Endings
What happens when a solitary writer from the Alaskan wilderness suddenly finds herself thrust into international literary acclaim? Eowyn Ivey, Pulitzer Prize finalist and author of "Black Woods Blue Sky," joins me for a fascinating exploration of the creative journey that took her from newspaper reporter to celebrated novelist.
"I absolutely would not have believed it," Ivey confesses about her unexpected success. We dive deep into what she calls "the crying in the elevator stage", that overwhelming moment when achievement suddenly feels too big to process. Her candid reflections on cleaning out chicken coops shortly after becoming a Pulitzer finalist reveal how grounding in everyday realities helps navigate literary success.
Whether you're struggling with first drafts or navigating sudden success, this conversation illuminates the vulnerable, surprising path of the storyteller's journey.
Birdie's keeping it together, of course she is. So she's a little hungover on her shifts, and has to bring her daughter to the lodge while she waits never tables, but it's a tough town to be a single mother, and Birdie just needs to get by.
And then Birdie meets Arthur, who is quieter than most men, but makes her want to listen; who is gentle with Emaleen, and understands Birdie's fascination with the mountains in whose shadow they live. When Arthur asks Birdie and Emaleen to leave the lodge and make a home, just the three of them, in his off-grid cabin, Birdie's answer, in a heartbeat, is yes.
Out in the wilderness Birdie's days are harsher and richer than she ever imagined possible. Here she will feel truly at one with nature. Here she, and Emalee
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I feel like that's one of the strangest aspects of our occupations actually is that for like 90% at least for me, because I am a slow writer and I've only had a few books out 90% of my writing career is just me, like you say, me alone in my little office or my little writing shed with a couple books in my computer and really shutting out, like intentionally shutting out the rest of the world and really shutting out like intentionally shutting out the rest of the world.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you had a good week and, if you're listening to me in the United Kingdom, I hope that you had a very good bank holiday weekend and I hope that you made the most of it, because we're not getting another one until August. We have to go a whole summer, an entire summer, without another bank holiday. So I hope that you made the most of it, because we're not getting another one until August. We have to go a whole summer, an entire summer, without another bank holiday. So I hope you had a good one. I had a good one. I saw the last Mission Impossible movie. I love Mission Impossible. It's one of my favourite franchises and I loved it. So if you've seen it, let me know. You can find me on social media.
Speaker 2:The links are are in the show notes, so I'm going to go straight into this episode with Iowyn Ivey, who is the author of Blackwoods Blue Sky, and what I wanted to say actually is that whilst I was editing this episode of the podcast, I realized that my idea for having these coffee break episodes, that it was probably born quite a while ago and it came to me during this conversation with Ayoin because we were talking about the isolation that all writers experience, because you know how it is we're just sitting in front of our computers in our offices, in the spare room, in the kitchen, but it's just us and our characters and the story we're trying to build. And we were both saying that what we miss are those water cooler moments. You know what I mean those moments when you're at work and you leave your desk, go make a cup of tea or go and get water from the water cooler and you bump into a colleague and you talk about where you're going on holiday or what was on TV the night before. Oh, I don't know. Karen, your colleague, I know bad here, I'm sorry. I don't know why I picked on Karen and I don't know why she had bad hair. It just came to me, so I apologize, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:You miss those moments where you could just have a quick chat, and that's what came up during my conversation with Ayoin. See, where the seeds of an idea were first planted. And I was able to do that in this episode with Ayoin and I just thought that was quite cool, so I just wanted to share that. Anyway, let's get on with the show properly. As I said, I'm in conversation with author Ayoin Ivy and in our conversation, we talk about what it's like to be nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, the vulnerability of sharing your writing journey and the collective unconsciousness of storytelling that all writers share. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Ayoin Ivy, welcome to the conversation.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me, Nadine. It's exciting to get to talk to you.
Speaker 2:It's very good talking to you, even though we were talking way before.
Speaker 1:Yeah we did, we did get started, we did right.
Speaker 2:So my first question for you, because when I was going through, like your publishing history and with your first book, the Snow Child, and then being nominated for like a Pulitzer Prize, all of these amazing things, if someone had told you all of this stuff was going to happen to you, let's say around, like when are you in college? Like 20, 21, what would you have said?
Speaker 1:I wouldn't have believed it. I absolutely would not have believed it. I wouldn't have believed it. I absolutely would not have believed it, even even a couple weeks before I found my publisher in the US and the UK. Even then, if someone would have told me all that was going to happen with the book, I wouldn't have believed it. Um, yeah, it's, it's crazy. Um, how the roller coaster ride I got to go on with the snow child was just something completely unexpected and wonderful and overwhelming at times, but but really amazing, yeah how did you cope with those overwhelming moments?
Speaker 2:because I remember when I first got my deal because I wasn't expecting it I was just thought, you know I've written this book and you know I was literally think, whatever happens happens. I'm not exactly, I'm not attached to the outcome of it. And then all this good stuff happened and I remember having like maybe about five months later, having like a mini breakdown in the park at a music festival, with my friend bawling my eyes out. She's like why are you crying? I'm like I think it's all just hit me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a lot. And it's funny you say that because I had the exact same experience where I was. I think I was in Denver, colorado, on a book event and Eleanor Brown, who is a wonderful writer here in the US, she lives in that area and she came up to me and at this point, like a lot had been going on with my books and and she said, are you at the crying in the elevator stage? And I said, oh God, I am at the crying in the elevator stage. And I said, oh God, I am the crying in the elevator stage Because there is this point where you're just you're having for me to part of it was so much social interaction that I was not used to.
Speaker 1:I mean, I had spent all this time by myself writing and having a pretty quiet life and all of a sudden I'm interacting with a lot of strangers and traveling and and it's all exciting good things that you feel like you don't want to complain in any way. It's nothing to complain about, but it's just a lot, a lot of new stuff in your life and it's overwhelming. I love.
Speaker 2:I didn't know. There was an official crying in the elevator stage, even though mine was in a park.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's exactly yeah but it's so true because you know it's all the good stuff and you feel like I can't possibly complain or just say to someone I'm feeling like this is a lot, because it's kind of all the things you want. But it does happen. When you know, when it happens big, it just happens all at once and it's just it just comes rushing towards you and there's absolutely nothing to prepare you for that you for that?
Speaker 1:No, there really isn't. And I think it would be foolish to have expectations that that's all going to happen, because then you're going to be disappointed because so often that it doesn't go that way. So you kind of go into it blind. It's really true, and I feel like and I don't know if you felt this way but you kind of feel like you have to say yes to everything because you want to do everything you can to help the book do well and all that, but it's, it can be a lot to take on, um and and stuff that maybe you're not, I wasn't ready to do, I didn't know I was going to be doing this and just being out there in the public more um, it's, it's a little nerve-wracking, it really is it is.
Speaker 2:I was talking to a friend of mine who's also a writer the other day and I hadn't spoken to him for ages and we both said the same thing. You know, I've been meaning to call you, but there's just been so much going on and it's not stuff that maybe, like the outside world can see. So you know you could be working on your book, but then you're talking to your editor or marketing team and you're making arrangements to do events and all of that can be a lot. And he said I just feel like I'm burnt out.
Speaker 1:And I said me too yeah it is, it's it's a lot and and like you say, you, you it's exciting, it's all good stuff, um, and and you never want to complain, but yeah it is, and I I think for me, um, like my family, being grounded with friends and family is a big help because I feel like that's where you remember, oh, this is, this is who I really am. Like all this other stuff is exciting and it's new and it's it's different, but but you, to kind of get grounded again in like your normal life and your normal relationships, I feel like can kind of help balance that out a little bit.
Speaker 2:When you have a good friend, you can talk to you or whatever it's good you do, I think you know, I think you're 100% right like you need those people around you to ground you like even like my two-year-old no, he wasn't even two my six-month-old nephew at the time, throwing up on me and I was like okay, this is the reality trick, yeah this is what I need.
Speaker 1:No, it's very much true, and it's funny because I get asked. Sometimes I'll get asked like what it was like when I found out about the Pulitzer finalist and um, and like it was this crazy thing. But then, maybe like a week or so later, um, we have chickens, and it was in the springtime, and spring in Alaska is not super pleasant Like it's very wet and muddy, and I was cleaning out the chicken house and all of a sudden I was like wait, pulitzer finalists have to clean out the chicken house. And then I was like you know what? What? This is good, this is my real life. Like this is all that other stuff is fantastic, it's exciting, but being grounded, mucking out a chicken house is a good reminder of who I really am.
Speaker 2:If six-month-old nephews throwing up on you and cleaning out chicken houses is not a reality check, then I don't know what that is. But what is that moment like, owen? What is that moment like when you get told that you're nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, because I wasn't even if anyone had even mentioned Pulitzer Prizes? To me it's, it feels, so far removed from anything I know, like I'm just happy to be on a bookshelf, absolutely so the thought of being nominated for not just not even like a little local prize, but yeah, yeah, a Pulitzer no, it was.
Speaker 1:It was so not on my radar and I don't know. I don't know if most people know this, but, like with the Pulitzer, it's different than some prizes. You know some awards. You might get a heads up ahead of time that you're in consideration, or you know different things, but with the Pulitzer, they just announce it all on one day. Everyone finds out at the same time and they find out who the winner is and who the two finalists are. At the. It just comes out and it was so not in my thought process to consider myself that I was online looking it up to find out the next books that I wanted to read and I, like I knew they come out. I follow the book awards and the.
Speaker 1:Now you know all these because these are the books I love to read. And I was looking online and right as I was looking at, I get this ding you know that I've got an email and I click on it and it's my publicist saying oh my gosh, guess what? You're a finalist for the Pulitzer. And I was like, wait, what Is this a joke? And actually I did. I called my mom because she and I were very she's since passed away, but we were very close and we were kind of writing partners and I called her to let her know and she didn't believe me because I've been known to be a prankster, I like to play and she said no, no, you're, you're, you're pulling my leg.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I said, mom, you don't even believe it's possible. I said I don't believe it's possible either, but it's really, and I could hear clicking. You know, know, looking it up on her computer. Oh my god, it's really true crazy, crazy.
Speaker 2:So it's so crazy because you said you're right. I said most people I know have been nominated for prizes. Even when, I think when I got, when I was shortlisted for something like you know, you know in advance, you get the email saying, yeah, oh, we have good news, you've been shortlisted.
Speaker 1:Like don't tell anyone until the embargo embargoed big secret, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But the fact that you're crazy that way, though, because you just find out when everyone else finds out exactly which.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's better or worse.
Speaker 2:It was just a complete and utter another shock no, I would be thinking if I suddenly got an email saying congratulations even if it was from my publicist saying congratulations, you've been your finalist for Pulitzer I would just think it's spam. I would just think this is just this. I don't know what this is. Someone's hacked my I think someone's hacked my publicist account and they've sent this email, especially with like with your debut as well. You just be thinking is someone just playing a joke? I would just think I would just delete it. I don't think I'll take it seriously at all.
Speaker 1:I think I've actually heard it and I'm terrible about this. I I love following stories about authors. Um, I always find it fun and inspiring, you know, to read about different authors and I think there was a famous situation like this where someone had been like won the Nobel Prize or something big, and it was like they just didn't believe it. They're like come on, you're, you know you're playing a joke on me.
Speaker 2:This isn't real and I can totally understand that feeling, because you can't go through life thinking that these things are going to happen because it's just so, you know, it's just unexpected and crazy and I think, like you know the journey of a writer I speak to so many people on this podcast and then there's people I just, other writers I just know, and everyone kind of has the same expectation, unless you're completely delusional and just think it's just going to happen. But you're expecting, and I think you're told to have your expectations low. When you've got that first book out there, even if you know you've signed with an agent and you're out on submission, you just think, okay, if I get a deal, I get a deal. If it's a good deal and it's a couple of thousand, well fine, I'll just carry on doing what I've been doing before. You don't have high expectations at all and I think all of us we just manage it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, and I think it's actually really important to not have any expectations, because it's such an unpredictable industry. And the truth is, I don't know if you found this, but if I ever happen to get a little bit of an expectation because of, like, something that happened with a previous book, so then you're like, oh well, maybe this thing will happen, or you know, whatever it never happens. So whatever you expect is going to happen is not going to happen. So you're better off having lower expectations, because I feel like I'm very superstitious about it at this point. Assume that nothing good is gonna. You know, nothing exciting and thrilling is going to happen, and then, when it does, it's like, oh wow, this is a wonderful surprise well, it's also.
Speaker 2:I like always stress the importance of like not looking at what's going on around you. You know, if you're sitting there watching, yeah, and you're seeing all the other debuts come out, and you're seeing who's got a seven-figure deal and you're like I would really like a seven-figure deal, and if you're watching all of that, it doesn't help that, I think, at all.
Speaker 1:No, and it's something I struggle with because I think, as a former bookseller and someone who just loves to read, there's a part of me that wants to see all that, you know, and a lot of times there's, like people that I kind of know, sort of friends in the industry who have books coming out so I'm excited to see it.
Speaker 1:But I do think and I've heard this said a lot like don't compare yourself to others in the process, because you know, if you're like, oh my Amazon ranking isn't as high as this other person's book who came out the same day as mine, or it's just a no win thing and trying to be, I really try hard to set aside any like professional jealousy and just be excited for people when they do have good things happen, and that that's how I've been able to kind of cope with that is sort of wanting to just more celebrate other people's um, good fortunes and and and put that kind of good energy out into the world as much as I can how long were you writing for before you got the, the call from the agent or the email from the agent saying send me the full manuscript?
Speaker 1:so I had a weird. Mine was not your typical, I think, although I've talked to some authors since then who went through kind of a similar situation. So I I I had been kind of writing my whole life and I worked as a journalist for quite a while um, as a newspaper reporter locally and then I decided I really wanted to give fiction a try. It was what I was always drawn to. So I went to work at a bookstore with the idea that I'd have a little more time and mental space to write and I wrote part of a first novel that will never see the light of the day and then started working on the Snow Child and I did feel like I had something. I felt like a certain energy that I thought I think I've got a good idea here. So I've been working away at it for a couple of years I think maybe three, two years or so and there was a writing conference up here in Alaska called the Catch Mac Bay Writers Conference, which is a wonderful conference that brings in, you know, authors and editors and agents and you can go and listen to different panels. And I had no plans of. I wasn't, I wasn't reaching out to agents, I wasn't on submission yet, I wasn't doing anything. But when I saw that there was this really impressive agent at the, at the, at the conference, I was impressed with the books that he had represented. I knew them and I thought, wow.
Speaker 1:And my mom was with me. She's, she was a poet. So we, she and I, used to go to events like this together and she said you should go and talk to him about what you're working on. And I was like, mom, it's not even, it's like two thirds, three quarters of the way done. And she's like, yeah, but you don't. When are you going to have this chance again to like talk to a New York agent and maybe you'll just, he'll give you some feedback about what seems to be working or what he likes about the idea or whatever. So she really pushed me into it.
Speaker 1:I was resistant and I signed up to talk with him and went in and it was like one of these horrible situations where I was waiting outside the little bar restaurant area. I didn't realize he was already inside there and so I was like standing out there, waiting and waiting, and finally got to be like five or 10 minutes after when we were supposed to meet and I go in, I'm looking and I see him standing like kind of half standing in the corner, like tapping his fingers, and he's like you're late and I thought, oh well, I might as well just turn around and walk back out again, and so I was like okay, I'm sorry, I thought I was meeting you out front, so anyways, we start talking.
Speaker 1:I tell him about it's about, and he says, well, I want to read it again. I'm totally unprepared. This was not my plan. I had no expectations of doing this. So my husband is back home, you know, like hundreds of miles away and at this point I wasn't. I didn't have a computer with me, I had no way to access my email, and so he's like trying to fax the pages from our local library down to the hotel. So he gets that. We get like however many pages he gets through 2050. I can't remember how many it was. My husband gets them to the hotel and I think, okay, well, that was a fun ride. I'm never going to hear from this guy again and that's okay, this was exciting. Next morning, again about expectations, right, everything went opposite of my expectations. And the next morning there's a panel. The agent's up on the panel, I'm listening, he gets done and he, he kind of beelines it towards me.
Speaker 1:I can tell he's walking straight towards me and he says let's sit down and talk. I I want to represent it and I was like wait, what? So that's how it started, again, totally contrary to how it's supposed to go or you know what.
Speaker 2:I think I think it's important for people to hear like the different routes you can go to getting an agent. Because there is a. There is the traditional, you know you send your submission, it might, it sits on the slush pile. Eventually it gets picked up. You know everyone. I think I think most people will go through that journey. But there are also so many stories that I've heard of you know writers they've met. They've literally they've met their agent in a bar, at a festival, and started talking to them and that's how they've ended up signing. I mean, mine wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't picked up off the slush pile because my tutor said send it to my agent. So I went, okay, I'm like, do you want it? He's like, yeah, send it to me. And that's how I ended up signing with my agent but I do.
Speaker 1:I do think seizing those moments, like if you have someone who's like listen to your mom that's one piece of advice, but but the other is is taking like I feel like, um, the idea of networking and like trying to get connections can be can feel a little despicable, like you're kind of using people in some bad way.
Speaker 1:But I think, if you think about it more, of just having connections, of talking to people who are in the same business as you, who are interested in the same things, going to events where you're going to meet other authors and other writers, I feel like all of that ultimately can kind of turn into networking. But it doesn't have to feel that way, like it's just friends and going to things that are enjoyable and and putting your taking that risk you know of, like you sending it to the agent. It feels risky and scary at least it did to me but taking those risks and not having any expectations and just being like, okay, I'm going to put it out in the world, see what happens, you know but the thing is you would do that, I feel, with any other industry and not think twice about it.
Speaker 2:Because when I think about my, you know my prior career as a lawyer and going to, you know I've lost count of how many events I had to go to, how many training events you'd go to and all of that you know. You do your training and your. You know your catch-up seminars and your law update seminars. But part of that is also networking, because you're meeting other lawyers. People want to give you work or you know they want work from you. So you're constantly doing that form of networking in other jobs and you want to think twice about it. But I feel there's something when it comes to writing and publishing. It feels a bit. It feels like a bit seedy even though it's not.
Speaker 1:No, it does. I know I and it's something I struggle with. Like it's just not, it's contrary to my instincts. I tend to be someone who is a little more quiet, um, not quiet, like I love talking with people but I don't tend to talk a lot about myself, um, or try to promote my. I'm uncomfortable promoting myself, um, but you're right, it is about.
Speaker 1:I mean, all careers have that aspect to them and it's so much fun, like getting to talk with you now, like it's fun to get to talk to other writers about how they got to, where they went and how things you know, because you can learn from that and then also get heads up about like, hey, I know this agent who is interested in this kind of work or whatever, and I've done it it a few times with my agent. I've had friends or you know people that I kind of know that I'm like oh, this is an interesting manuscript, reach it out to my agent. It's never worked out, but you never know, someday it might, you know, I might, I might find my agent a new client someday. I don't know no, I did.
Speaker 2:it is so important. I think too, it's like you, just you're creating those relationships as well Because this is such an it's so isolated. I know you live in Alaska, but you know, being in Alaska and then being in your office on your own writing your books is isolated. It's just you and the words and the story no-transcript.
Speaker 1:It's an odd part of our job and I think it's hard for a lot of us because you know, it's just, yeah, just very two different approaches to life, I think and also I think you're exposed, aren't you Like?
Speaker 2:which is going to be different type of exposure if you compare it to your previous career as a bookseller or as a reporter, even as a lawyer. It's a completely different side of kind of exposure because it's so personal.
Speaker 1:Exactly, yeah, exactly. And I feel like we we're putting ourselves, no matter what kind of books you're writing, if you're writing fiction, there's a little piece of yourself in that book, um, and there's something very vulnerable about it, and and you're putting yourself out there and saying, okay, everybody read this and tell me what you think. It's a. It's a little bit of a scary prospect, you know to do that.
Speaker 2:It is what you know of your book. So with um, with your first book and the second one, so the snow child, and to the bright edge of the world. And because I know you have like this fairy tale, like reimagining thing going on, what drew you to that?
Speaker 1:you know, I think, what it was and I don't know that I completely realized, you know, it's like kind of in retrospect I can see how it all worked out. But so I had worked as a newspaper reporter. I loved fiction, kind of knew I wanted to write fiction, worked as a newspaper reporter for almost 10 years writing all kinds of stories you know about court cases and school board meetings and you know whatever court cases and school board meetings and you know whatever. And and then I said, okay, no, I really want to try to write fiction. This is what I want to do.
Speaker 1:And I spent, I think, almost a year working on a novel that I would describe as sort of just modern realism, set in Alaska, and I was just so bored I just I did not like what I was doing, it was not, and I thought there's no way anyone else is going to want to read this. There's just nothing interesting going on and I couldn't figure out like what I was missing. And then it really was that, that, that moment of being at the bookstore shelving books, coming across this little children's paperback book that was the fairy tale of the snow child, the Snigarochka fairy tale, the snow maiden, and reading it and just having this sort of I mean, it sounds so dramatic, but it really was. It was just sort of this epiphany of like wow, you could write a story like this set in my backyard, like I could do that. And it's fiction, so I can write whatever I want.
Speaker 1:And I just hadn't realized, I guess, that fiction was much more freeing than journalism, that I can break all the rules and make whatever happened that I want to have happen. And I think that's what the fairy tale gave me was sort of the permission to bring the magical into the stories that I was telling. And I feel like that has served me well, because I tend to be a very logical sort of person in the way I approach everything and that doesn't always serve me well in fiction. Sometimes I need permission to be a little illogical, or at least fantastical, I guess no, I get that always.
Speaker 2:I always say about myself I have a very linear brain, I have to go for, I have to go from a to z. I'm not doing, I'm not going round and round the corners, I'm not. If I'm writing my book, I'm literally starting from chapter one and I'm getting to the end. I'm not gonna start in the middle. I can't work that way.
Speaker 2:And I think, being a lawyer, everything is I say everything's got to fit in a box. You know you have to meet certain beats, certain deadlines, there's certain requirements and you have to comply with the law. So when I was writing when I'm writing my books initially, and I'm writing police procedurals, I'm writing these thrillers, and I was because it's just ingrained in me that I need to get the law right. And then I'm writing the story but the story's not flowing because I'm writing myself into a corner and it's like you're saying, you give yourself permission and I had to give, sit down, literally, have a word with myself and say, nadine, this is fiction. You can make things up as long as the world you build feels authentic. You can make stuff up because then the reader will see it. But if I hadn't told myself that I still, who knows? I probably wouldn't be doing this because I wrote myself into corners. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I'm the same way and I think in ways it serves us well, this ability to be logical, organized and someone you know, I think that kind of brain. When you're that sort of linear brain, you're going to finish something because you start at the beginning, you work towards the end, and I've seen these writers that are amazing, that do these sort of like thought maps where it's like all these ideas all over on the piece and I'm like no, no, no, no, my brain does not work that way. I feel it makes me feel scared and confused, you know, um, so I am logical, but it is tricky then to then give your and and along those lines. I think that's one reason why I invented this.
Speaker 1:The Wolverine river is not a real river in Alaska. I invented that place that's in all three of my books partly because it did like you were talking about, with the law and criminal law and like feeling like you were bound to this reality. It was the same with me having to do with the geography of Alaska, because Alaska is so important to me and it's such a part of my stories. But I was getting hung up on it, like I was spending way too much time staring at really detailed maps and being like, well, wait, you know, does this creek come in there? And all of a sudden I was like, wait, this is. This is silly to be fretting and spending so much time worrying about this when it doesn't matter and it's fiction. So I invented the Wolverine River so I could do whatever I wanted to, and that was another way to kind of give myself permission to just be like I can. This is all mine, I can. I can do what I want yeah, it's so great.
Speaker 2:You know you, you know, talking about the amount of time you'll spend fixated on oh my god, is this correct? And can you and I would do the same thing. It's like, well, can I see this? I don't know this section of the park from this particular position on the street and I'm thinking, if I'm going on this street, well, that means then my character can't be going around the corner to meet whatever, and I'll spend so much time looking at and I know these streets because it's my area where I live. But I'm on Google Maps and Street View over-analysing things. And then again I had to say to myself Nadine, just make up a street, it does not matter, they're along for the ride and you know they're reviewing, they got in the car, they're going along for the ride, they'll forgive you. If you've made up a street and a tower block, it's fine, yeah no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Checking those details to some ridiculous level.
Speaker 2:You know you're talking about doing the mind maps and things it's like.
Speaker 2:I always, whenever I see, normally, if I'm on Instagram and I see other writers with their massive whiteboards and they've you know, they've got a colour coded plan or their different post-it notes and things, and I'm looking and I'm like it looks pretty, but no, I think I've tried it once they fall on the floor and I can't bother to pick them up and I'm like no, my brain doesn't work that way them up and I'm like no, my brain, my brain doesn't, it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, that's so interesting too, because I, because I some, I'm so logical minded I've also looked at the other extreme and I know that there are these different like, um, writing software, things that will arrange your chapters and do things or whatever, and and I that to me is too far. The other direction of like I, just I just open a word document and start writing, like I can't if I get overwhelmed with like too much technology, too much organization or too much chaos, like I just have to have this kind of quiet little spot to enter into.
Speaker 2:I guess I use I mean saying all that I do use Scrivener.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's the one I've looked looked at and I I found it kind of overwhelming. I'm like I don't know if I can understand.
Speaker 2:This is the thing I'm like. I use it, but I'm pretty sure I do not use it to its full capability.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just I write the first draft on it and I like to see my chat, because you know that's just my brain. I like to see all my chapters, but then I'm not moving things around, I'm not doing any of that stuff, and then I just I compile it into a Word document and then I start working from that for my second, third, whatever, how many drafts it takes. But yeah, I'm like I don't think I don't. You know, I'm not getting the best out of Scrivener, but I'm sure people do. They. They know, they know what everything does on it.
Speaker 1:Exactly Well, and I think that's the trick is just finding whatever works for you. You know, I mean I and I don't know about you, but I love reading about other writers routines and like, and I understand why people at book events will ask me like do you write with paper and pen or do you? You know, how do you do it? And I'm curious about it too, because I feel like we're always looking like am I doing it the best way? How are other people doing it? And I feel like it's kind of trial and error. Right, you try different things and you think, ok, this is, this is what's working for me. Now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I mean this is just me. I mean I could be completely wrong, could be different with someone else, but I feel like it takes you maybe about your third, your fourth book and then maybe by your fourth book, you've worked out what the the method that works for you, whether, even if you are a planner, what type of planning do you need to do? Because you know one person you know. I've spoken to writers on there. Their plans are like 10,000 words, it's it's a novel, it's like the opening of a novel is their plan and mine is my. My plans are me and my yellow legal pad and my pencil just doing little bullet points for each section, and that's how I can yeah, no, it is true.
Speaker 1:And I remember the first time I was asked that question and maybe you've got this too how does it go? Are you a, a plotter or a pantser? And I remember thinking, uh, what, what does that? I remember the first time I heard it I was like, uh, excuse me, what are you asking me? And then I was like, oh like, are you by the seat of your pants or are you plotting everything out? And I am somewhere in between.
Speaker 1:That being said, so I guess, technically, I've written, I, I've started a novel that I never finished, but I got far enough in that I can count it, I think. So I guess I could say that I've written four novels. Um, but I I still like I don't have it figured out. To be honest, I still feel like there's got to be a better way, that there's got to be some way that I could write better and more efficiently, and so I don't know that I've quite figured it out, but maybe, you know, we at some point acknowledge our limitations. Like this is the best thing I can do, I guess.
Speaker 2:I think that's actually probably more accurate. You acknowledge what works for you and yeah, and yeah, I think I think that's probably more accurate. So I kind of worked out I know what works, I know what does, I know what I like, I know what I don't like. I'm definitely not a pantser. Yeah, because you won't. You won't get a book out of me if you, if you want me to pants it there's, there's no, there were no. There were no books. There were no novels. My career is over so do you do?
Speaker 1:but you do sort of an outline, though you have like a like, a kind of like a bullet point, sort of just a general idea when you go into it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I need, I need, I don't know. Yeah, I need it because I just feel like, even if I go off like I go off Exactly, but then it's still nice to have it's like a reference guide. It's like, ok, where did I plan to go? And I was like, oh, I want you to go here and I think that's how I use it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm the same way, Like I'm not. I'm not really rigid about it. If I come up with a better idea, I don't have any trouble changing directions or whatever, but it's I guess I find it kind of intimidating to just face like an empty word document with like no, you know. So I'll also do other things where I'll have like either in a journal or on my bulletin board, where I just and I'm curious if you do this too like I'll just put up. If I come across a photo and I'm like like wow, that looks kind of like the character I'm thinking of, or a piece of art that sort of evokes some kind of feeling in me, I put these kind of images either in a journal or up on the bulletin board to kind of also just remind me of, like the feeling that I have when I'm trying to write. But do you do any? Do you do any things like that, like with images or songs or yeah, I do, I do with songs, with music, and they'll be like and, yeah, I'm listening.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh, it either like evokes a feeling or it creates a scene. Yes, so I think I do it more with music. But I've had to like go back to basics because I find I was finding that I was having like all these little ideas, or you know, I'd see something online, or whether I'm walking and I'm not putting it down. So I'm like, oh, I should put it in my phone and I don't want to pull it in my phone. So I'm like, no, so now I have my little blue notebook and I've gone old school, yeah, and I was before a little thing. I opened it the other day and I was like I have no idea what this is about, but I know, I know it will come in useful, because at least I didn't forget it see, you're better than me, though I do this terrible thing, and you can probably kind of see him behind me.
Speaker 1:I have stacks of journals. I love buying journals, and then I never actually write anything in them. I always have these plans that I'm going to fill them up with all these ideas and I'm going to keep a little one in my purse or in my pocket and write little notes. And yet I never do it. And I don't really write notes on my phone either. I guess every once in a while I'll. I like if I'm at some event or you know someone's reading something and something really strikes me, I will jot a little note in my phone about it, or like a book that someone recommends or something like that. But I'm not a good like a note taker as far as and I've good like a note taker as far as and I guess I've always felt like well, maybe the good ideas will, the good ideas will stick with me, is what I think. But then I other times I think, well, maybe that's not true, maybe I'm forgetting really good ideas because I don't write them down. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I know I had a really good idea the other day and I was like, oh, I'll write it down and I didn't write it down and I've forgotten it and it's bugging me because I'm like I know it was a good idea and I can't even there's no reference point for it. There's nothing I can look at and say, oh, that is what it was, oh, that was it. Yeah, there's nothing. So, and because I've got so many notebooks, because I'm like I'm always buying a no, I'm always pretty, I'll buy that and I was looking at my shelf in front of me and someone a friend of mine had given me two like really nice notebooks and I was like I need to use these because they're just stacking up. So this is why I'm now carrying my little blue, my little blue notebook in my bag, just in case well, good for you.
Speaker 1:I should be inspired by that. I need, I should do something like that. I sure think someday, someday one day.
Speaker 2:So this is, um, this is a. This is like a question. I like this. No, it's a question. I was asked. Actually, I was asked on my sub stack and someone said to me and I thought it was a good question because we're personally like with your books, especially like your new one, um, black woods, blue sky, and they were asking what are? They said, what are the building blocks to write in what you fear? And I just reinterpret it as you know how do you write through those things that you are scared about, all those things that could be fearful? And I was thinking about, you know, your books and and Alaska, and especially with Blackwood, blue Sky, and I was thinking like being off the grid and isolation and all those things can be fearful because our world is full of yeah, it's just technology, like there's no way. Look at us, we're talking London and Alaska, which is, which is crazy, but it's like what? How do you write through? Yeah, how do you write through what you fear?
Speaker 1:yeah, I, you know, I think that that in another way, that's where fairy tales or folk tales, things like that, are. I find it's kind of similar to what we were talking about, about having sort of an outline, having a framework, and I feel like there's something about transferring the emotions that I want to talk about into a fairy tale-like feeling. That helps me somehow both defamiliarize it in a sense, like take it outside of myself and see it as something separate from myself that I can then write about, while also trying to find the universal in it. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's. You know, I, I think that I I've never been particularly interested in like writing memoir or writing really autobiographical, super personal things, but within every one of my books I'm putting so you know, in the Snow Child it was the fear of not being able to have children.
Speaker 1:You know, my husband, I went through a phase where we thought we weren't going to be able to have children and I put that fear into it. I put that fear into it, but but by by writing it into another character, I could kind of see it maybe more objectively or something separate from myself that then allows me to write about it honestly in a more uh, I guess in a more truthful way, and some I don't know if that makes sense at all no, it does.
Speaker 2:It does, I think, because you know when I was asked the question, I think I said um, you know, if you're asking yourself, you know how do I write through something that's fearful, I think in a good way, you're asking yourself how can I treat this with, how can I be responsible with this subject, how can I treat it with integrity and not take advantage of it?
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, no, I think that's actually a really wonderful way to think about it too, of trying to be and I mean this is a word that gets used a little bit too much but trying to be authentic about it, of trying to represent it not as a way that you're just using it for suspense or something. And that's certainly the case in my new book of you know, writing about my childhood fears, of you know, my dad being both a really wonderful person but also, at times, a very terrifying, violent person. Like, how can I write about that in a way that feels honest and and hopefully, important, and not just about, you know, getting someone to turn the pages fast, you know? I mean, that's certainly part of it, right, that's part of the fun of reading and writing is wanting people to be pulled into the story and to want to know what's going to happen, but, like you say, trying to write it about it in a way that gets at the heart of it, hopefully.
Speaker 2:Were you ever worried about where your books would fit? Because you know you've got this with the fairy tale reining and you know the reason why I'm asking is because you know when you look at how I say well, how popular seems like an understatement. Romantasy is like. Romantasy is like, yeah, to say it's popular is an understatement. Yeah, and I was looking at um, what's her name? Is it Rebecca Yaros?
Speaker 1:with yes, yeah, with like fourth wing and all those. Oh my god, yeah. And selling.
Speaker 2:Was it like 2.5 million in the first and which is just. It's the numbers. I'm not even sure if I got the numbers right, because the numbers just seem so alien to me. Yeah, those are like box office numbers if you're releasing a film, but not in terms of exactly in terms of books. But did you ever worry? Yeah, were you ever concerned about where your books would fit?
Speaker 1:or now it doesn't even matter you know, I, I wasn't and I don't know, yeah, so my suspicion is that I think that that all of us writers you know, even the ones who are writing these mega hits, I think I suspect my suspicion is that really, we're all just writing what it is that we want to read, like we're writing something that we feel like is exciting to us, and I feel like you can't really, because it goes back to that whole thing of expectations and trying to predict what's going to happen. You can't, and I, I, I, I hazard to guess that the author of fourth wing did not expect things to go the way they have with her books. You know, I mean I could be wrong, but I think that probably all of us, when we're actually alone with our little laptops or our notebooks and we're writing, we're just, we're just writing what we want to write and what I mean. I'm not saying that we can't. I think we have to think about the reader in terms of like, ok, are they going to understand what I'm trying to say? Are they going to find this interesting? But beyond that, I feel like in the writing process, we just have to engage with what it is we want to do.
Speaker 1:And it is strange because, having worked as a bookseller like I understood the importance of genre, of being able to say, okay, this book goes on the, you know, in the Western American section, and this one goes in the mystery thriller, and this one goes in the literary, and I see the value of that to be able to say like, hey, if you like these kind of books, then you're going to like this one. As a writer, I just couldn't think about that. I just had to write what I wanted to write and like be like I don't know how this is going to go Like, and I had no. I think that's one reason why the snow child surprised me so much is because it felt a little weird what I was doing Like it felt like it wasn't quite, you know, like other things that I had read, but I was excited about that and I just wrote it and then thought, okay, kind of like what you're saying, you're like, okay, well, I did it. Who knows what's going to happen with it, but I had fun writing it.
Speaker 2:I think I think what you're saying is like 100% right, because it's like you know when people like, the advice is like, don't write to trends, because you know what's a trend today by the time your book is published, let's say, you know you spend a year writing your book. You then get an agent, if everything runs smoothly, and then your book comes out two years, so three years after you started writing the book, your book is now on the shelf. The trend is probably past. Which way to just write the story that you want to write. I think you know when I started writing my books it was like, oh, this is the story I want to tell, I want to write about this, yeah, and then I just wrote the story and then it turns out everyone else was writing the same short story by the time it got published well, and that is the weird thing that happens.
Speaker 1:I see that a lot where there's these trends that you don't really know that you're well, and I had the same thing happen where, um, julia Phillips, a writer, had a book come out called the Bear, right before my book came out even the same publisher, and obviously they're very different books in ways, but there are some similarities there that are a little eerie and you go, wow, and the truth is, is we're all, we're all a part of sort of this collective unconscious, like we're all reading and taking in the same movies and we're reading the same books to a large extent, and so I think we are kind of all feeding off of this collective pool of imagination.
Speaker 1:But I also think that's a good thing. Like, I think we don't, maybe we don't write towards trends, but we're reading things and getting inspired or saying, oh yeah, this is kind of what I want to do, or this is what, this is definitely not what I want to do. And then you're sort of tailoring where you're going by by what you enjoy and what you see that's exciting out there and yeah, but but you're right, as far as chasing a trend, I think that's never gonna, and the end, the truth is, you might as well just enjoy as much as you can what you're writing, because who knows what's going to happen with it, you know no, it's true, and it's like I want to do.
Speaker 2:And the thing is, you spend so much time with these characters in your head and creating these worlds for them.
Speaker 1:You should, you should enjoy it and not be thinking about what's going to happen next yep yep, exactly, I mean, because that's really kind of the only guarantee that you have at least I feel like with my writing. I know there are authors out there who who feel like they could pretty much write whatever and it's going to get published. I don't feel that way at all. I feel like the only guarantee that I have is that I, if I want to write something, I can write it. That's it. That's all I know, and beyond that, who knows if anyone's going to want to read it, you know, or anyone's going to want to publish it. There's just no guarantees about that ever it.
Speaker 2:I've said this, like I've said this a couple of times um over the past couple of weeks on this podcast to different authors. And it came out because I was um talking to a bunch of my friends, a bunch of my writer friends, and someone not had good news about one of the books they'd written, and so we were talking about it and I just said being, if someone was to advertise this job as being a writer, like the advert would be. You know, you can work your own hours, you can work remotely, you can pick whatever project you want to write on, but there's no guarantee of getting paid, there's no guarantee that you'll get another project at the end of it. And if you saw that job being advertised, you'd be like I'm not doing that.
Speaker 1:No, thank you. No, it's really true. It's such a weird business like I just feel like and, and it's like I feel like I, beyond the advances that I get for a book, I feel like I have absolutely no idea what money is going to show up in my bank account or not show up. It's just like, isn't it weird? It's very weird. It feels like you're like like gambling or something we're like oh hey, I won. Woohoo, I got some money in my bank account.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's exactly what it's like. I've never. It is like it's like you're gambling, you're constantly yeah, putting yeah. You're constantly gambling and you're waiting to see if you're you know if the horse will come in. And sometimes the horse comes in, you can't remember what the odds were. And the odds were like, were so low. You're like, really, was it even worth it? I might as well just kept my five pounds or my five dollars. And then other times, oh, my horse, my horse did come in, but there are just no guarantees attached to it. But then, but we do it, we're we're committed to it.
Speaker 1:I know, I know and I don't know about you, but you know, I often get asked like, okay, what are you working on now? But when I, every time I finish a book, I'm just like, okay, I don't think I'm going to do that again, like it just feels hard and like, like you say, there's no guarantees with it and it and of hard work, and that yet somehow I'm, you know, out for a walk or washing the dishes or doing something, and my brain starts. I don't know about you, but I, my brain, goes there a little against my will.
Speaker 2:It feels like sometimes and I start thinking, well, that's an interesting story idea or that's an interesting character, and I'm like, wait, stop no, it's true, like I'm saying, like you're going on my walk and I wasn't thinking about what am I gonna write about and I was giving it. I was saying that you're going on my walk and I was thinking about what am I going to write about and I was giving it. I was spent, I was working too hard on thinking of an idea and I just went out on my walk and I literally just saw a poster on a board advertising like a service, like a voluntary service, and I just saw the poster and I just thought, oh, that's it, this, this is what my character is going to be doing. This is how my character gets into the world. And you know, ideas and inspiration just come from so many, just like, just from random and unexpected places.
Speaker 1:And I feel like that's my favorite moment in the process. Really. Is that that moment where you're like, oh, this is, this is the answer, this is the piece that goes into this puzzle. It's so satisfying and exciting, but there's a lot in between that for me sometimes can feel like drudgery. You know where you're just like putting the sentences together and going oh, is this even interesting? Am I doing something here or not?
Speaker 2:It's hard because, no matter how much success you've had with your previous book, so right now, so I'd finished my book four, so my book four's with my editor, we're in the editing process with my fourth book. Okay, and I had to put, do an outline for the next two book in the series and then I've done an outline for a standalone. This was the long it took, but, yeah, it seems exciting, I know, and it feels exciting, but it was not because I thought I could. I was like I should be able to do this in a week. So it's only an outline, I can do it in a week.
Speaker 2:It took me like six weeks to do yeah, and then when I sent it to my agent, it was with like just this heaviness, thinking what if he doesn't like it? Yes, he's probably not going to like it, and then what am I going to do? I got to start again and I would never have that sort of reaction to anything I would have worked on, like in the past in my other careers. But this is like no, it is. This feels like there's so much hanging on it, there's so much weight attached to it.
Speaker 1:And I don't know about you too. I have a really hard time because that's the first step for me. I said, you know, if I have an idea or I have a few chapters, you know it's my agent that I'm first interacting with about it and I really trust my agent. But sometimes I feel like I don't. With my agent and my editors, I feel like I don't, I can't guess what they're going to like and what they're not gonna like. I could be, I could be really excited about something and be like, wow, I nailed this. And they can be like, yeah, it's just not quite working, or something that I like kind of throw out there. I'm like, okay, let's, let's try this. Oh, that is it. And I'm like wait, what it's like? I, I have no objectivity about my own stuff.
Speaker 2:It's crazy that was me with the outline for my standalone that I've been planning. I was literally I gave. He was like oh, have you got any ideas? And I've just thought, well, let me just. I literally threw about four or five lines at him and he went I really like it. I'm like I have no story. This is just a. This is just a, a premise. It's just something that just popped into my head, and I think that's why I struggled so hard with writing the outline, because I was like I need to turn this, this little elevator pitch. I now need to turn this into something bigger. Yeah, and I think I probably made that much more of a thing than it actually was, because I was like well, how do I do this? I need to find characters and stories in a world to put them in.
Speaker 1:I know, and it's hard and I don't know about you, but I mean some of that, you know, like some of that I want to have figured out ahead of time to know that I have something worthwhile, like something that's actually going to work as a book. But the problem is, is a lot of it I don't discover until I'm partway into the writing process, partly my discovery process. And that's intimidating because you, you, you just kind of write, thinking, okay, it's a lot of having to just kind of trust the process. I feel like I don't know if that's how it is for you, where you're just like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive in and hopefully I find everything I need to make this a whole world and story. I mean, it's crazy no, it is.
Speaker 2:It is crazy enough, but I think you're right and I feel it probably goes back to my lawyer days, like I wouldn't write an application and not put probably the same as being a reporter. You put all the facts in and you know everything before you start, even before you start to sit down and write, and now you want me to write something.
Speaker 1:I don't even know where these people live at this moment yeah, everything you don't know and like that's the whole process of writing, is figuring all of that out. Um, yeah, it's, it's. It's really insane and I and I've joked in the past before that sometimes when I first start writing a story, I feel like I'm holding up these really flat paper puppets and making them talk. Like it feels very fake and jilt, you know, like, like stilted, and it takes so much time to develop these into like three-dimensional real beings in a real world. It's like it's, it's uh, it's a lot.
Speaker 2:I had a in my outline. I've got a. There's a guy, there's a character and he's literally I've just called him a security guard. He doesn't even have a name and I'm like I need to. He can't just be the security guard in. He works in his cabin for like a book he needs, yeah, but I haven't figured him out yet yeah, yeah, that that happens to me a lot, where I have characters where I just don't.
Speaker 1:They're kind of placeholder characters, um, but I don't know. Sometimes those end up once I discover who they really are. Sometimes those are my favorite characters, um, uh, but it's. It is a process figuring out who they are, and do you ever do? I know there's some authors that will do like a like, almost like a character spreadsheet or like an interview with their character things to try to get to know their character. Have you ever done any of these kind of can?
Speaker 2:I can. I I'm pulling a face at um, pulling a face at her, because I'm like, no it's, you know, I'll be completely up front. I've been, I've been, I've done those um like character biography exercises, like do biography for your characters or interview them. I would literally do about 50 words and I'll do their name, their address, probably where they I know, where they live, who they're married to, and that's it. I'm like I'll find out about them and I write I get bored, literally, I just get bored. I'm like I can't do all that.
Speaker 2:The only time I've done it actually was with um, with the, with the antagonist in in my first book, the jigsaw man, with the serial killer, because I needed to know why he was the way he was. Yeah, and I spent and and it was weird because he was, I think, because in my head he was never meant to be a major character. I felt like I could like indulge that time on him because I was never really going to use him, but then he did become this bigger character. That's the only time I've ever done it yeah that's interesting, though, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is a really interesting thing where the and I feel like that's the and I don't quite. I've had authors say, you know, oh, my characters sort of take over the story. And I don't quite feel that way, but I do feel like I enjoy it when the characters surprise me, when they end up being more important or having some element to them that I did not foresee. Like that's kind of an exciting. That's the fun part sometimes is that discovery, I feel like, about your characters.
Speaker 2:It's really neat well, I didn't even discover it. My editor and my agent was like we need more of him. I'm like why he's literally, literally, he's just passing. And they're like, no, we really like him, we need more of him.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh, we actually know more about him so you can have more yeah, I, I am very, I have like, um, I'm very, very grateful for my agent and my editors, and other times I feel like, oh, you make me work so hard that's normally the editing notes when I get my comments I'm like you want more stuff.
Speaker 1:I know, but I feel like I don't know about you, but I do feel like oftentimes that's when I push it to another level. That makes my books hopefully better than what I would have ever been able to do on my own. Because I have someone saying like, okay, and they're usually areas that I'm avoiding because I kind of know there's a problem there or I'm like I don't know how to explain it and they're like, oh God, you need to fix this. I'm like, oh damn, I was hoping I would get away without having to fix that problem.
Speaker 2:But that's a good editor. I mean, you've got a good relationship, you're editing and you trust them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, although I do have some times and I don't know if you've had this happen where I've had times where I've had an editor and my agent say like, hey, this isn't working and they'll try to kind of throw out ideas of how to fix it. And oftentimes they can't give me the answer on how to fix it. And if anything, sometimes I'm digging in more into the thing that they're saying is not working. I realize I need to prove that it's worthwhile being in there. I don't know if that makes sense I have to make it earn itself, like I'm not just giving it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had that with my with the last book. There's a, there's a scene and I'm probably like too married to this scene, but I just love it as well and I was like oh, I don't think we need. I'm like no, I feel like it, I feel like I need it, but then by saying I needed it, I needed.
Speaker 1:I needed the scene to earn its place, yes, yeah, and then, and then you I I don't know about you, but that's what makes me write it better like I make it earn its way, and then that forces me to write better. But yeah, it's not like like an easy, and I think sometimes people don't, who haven't gone through the editing process don't really understand that how complex this relationship is where it's not like they're saying, oh yeah, change this to this and do this. No, it's like, hey, this isn't working, fix it somehow. Um, or like you say, like you know, cut this. And you're like no, no, I don't want to cut it, I'm going to make it better.
Speaker 2:Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. I'm going to ask you about your book, because I have your book.
Speaker 1:Yes, black Woods, blue Sky oh, yay, I love that it's so cool.
Speaker 2:You know, I went to, I did an event about about three weeks ago and, yeah, I did an event at Headline and we went in there in the function room and your book was on all the show and I was like I know this book All right. So I always have to ask would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about Blackwood's Blue Sky? Yeah, so it's?
Speaker 1:it's a story about a young single mother who has a little girl named Emmeline, who's six years old and Birdie's the mom, and she works at a roadside lodge in Alaska and is not maybe the most functional person she's got some issues but she wants a better life for herself and her daughter and she becomes kind of enamored with this strange reclusive man who lives on the other side of the river in a very remote area. But he comes out to visit and they start a relationship and she moves with her little girl out to this remote cabin and in the cover which I do love the cover so much the US and the UK covers are very similar. When you look at the cover there's kind of a little inkling as to what's going to happen, because there's a bear standing by a tree and the bear's shadow is a man, um. So it kind of gives you a little sense and and like all my other books um, not all my other my other two books, um, they're set is set in Alaska and has some magical um elements to it.
Speaker 2:I'm asking this question now because I basically I stole it from Oprah, but I'm just reinterpreting it. My question is if you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters in this book I think it's a good question backwards, blue sky. Which character would you spend the afternoon with?
Speaker 1:you know it's so funny, um, because I was just talking about this to someone, about how, in each of my books, I feel like there's one character who's sort of my, my grounding point, my, my comfort character in a sense, and so that would be very easy for me. It'd be Warren. So Warren is sort of the adopted father of Arthur, the kind of strange man who's got a secret, and Warren is a retired Alaska state trooper a secret, um. And Warren is a retired Alaska state trooper, like a police officer in Alaska. He's retired and he's just a very, I feel like, although he's he's got some regrets and difficult things in his life, I feel like he's a very kind person, um, and I think he would have some amazing stories to tell about old Alaska, and so, yeah, he would definitely be the one that I would want to spend some time with it's interesting, you know.
Speaker 2:You say you've got a character that grounds, that grounds you. That's your grounding character.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and they're not. It's funny because they're not always the main. They're not the main character. So, like in the Snow Child, there's this character named Esther, who kind of came to me late but she was just lighthearted and fun and strong, and this lovely Alaskan woman and I was so happy when I found her. I was like, oh, esther, you're going to get me through this, you know. And same with Warren in this book there are these characters that just because I am interested in exploring sort of life and death and difficult things, but sometimes you just need a character who's not so fraught to spend some time with.
Speaker 2:I guess no, it's true, because even though I write a series and I have one character, whenever I write him I just feel like he's just a little bit of sanity and he brings a bit of levity to all the seriousness and chaos that is going on in everyone else's life. And I just, I just love writing him and sometimes he may just be literally just be passing through, but he has a little comment to make and I'm just like, oh, I need you, I need you here on the page exactly that's the kind of character I love.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's. Yeah, there are. There are lifesavers, I feel like during the writing process, you do Okay.
Speaker 2:So, eowyn, are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:Well, this ties into a lot to what we were talking about that I think as authors we kind of have to be both right. I feel like during the writing phase, we're the introverts who are happy spending a lot of time by ourselves, and then we've got to flip that switch and suddenly be, um, talking to everyone. But I, I love, I mean, I do so. I, I'm one of those people and I think a lot of people are like this in the moment. I get a lot of energy from talking to people, um, but when it's done, I feel a little like, okay, I need to go just spend some time by myself now.
Speaker 2:It is a lot. Again, I was talking to a friend this week and we're talking about doing events and doing festivals and you know, sometimes there's always a lull before the festival season starts. But you know, we're looking at our diaries and I was just like this is a lot and I just need to find two months when I'm not doing anything because it's it's a different form of energy, because you are performing when, whereas before you're not, you don't have to perform, and it's just you in front of your, your blank page on your computer.
Speaker 1:But then, yeah, having that switch to being on a stage and being before an audience and you, you do, then become a performer yeah, you do, and I don't know about you, but I find it really hard to engage my creative brain, like as far as like trying to think about new story ideas, when I'm in that mode of being sort of more of a public person and and and it does require energy and a different kind of creativity, like trying to think about how to talk about your newest book or whatever. It requires brain power, um, and it and it's. It's different, but at the same time it doesn't leave a lot of room for me to work on that more quiet kind of imaginative things I feel like yeah, I've always, um, you know, I'd hear people say oh, you know, when you're doing events and you're in the hotel, you know, take that, you know take.
Speaker 2:You have take your laptop with you and like work when you're not. And I'm, and I've tried it and I've opened my laptop and I've just gone onto Netflix or something.
Speaker 1:So I'm like I I don't have the brain capacity oh yeah, totally no, that's exactly how I am and I've, I've I've had the same thing where you know, and I've actually been at events where you know. I remember one I'm trying to think of who the author was but he came down the hotel stairs and was like well, I got my 500 words done for the day this morning. And I was like wait, what? Like I'm just barely functioning, like I'm lucky if I can, like get up and have a shower and have my coffee before I go to my first panel or whatever you know, and I'm like you just wrote 500 words. That is not happening.
Speaker 2:I'm literally like I managed to get down to breakfast before the cutoff time. That was success for me. And you're telling me, you've read and I've been in the same situation like, yeah, I've written, I've written 500 words, I've done my word count. I'm like you have a word count right now.
Speaker 1:I know, I know I can't. I admire people who can do this. I, I do, and I. This is why it takes me so long to write another book. I can't do it, I can't, I guess, like I can't, multitask apparently okay.
Speaker 2:So next question what challenge and I said I'm now back it up by saying it could be good or bad, doesn't need to be the worst thing ever but what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:I I think it was growing up in kind of a rural part of Alaska. Rural is a little bit, you know, alaska's scale for remoteness is a little different than the rest of the world. But where I grew up was kind of you know, small town, rural, and I think growing up in Alaska, I just think that was as as a kid I spent a lot of time by myself and I I think that sparked my imagination a lot. I had imaginary friends, I made up stories, um, and I think also just spending a lot of time in the Alaska wilderness, um, both with my family and by myself. I think that all is very much um has come out in my writing. So I don't think I could be the writer I am with now without having lived that life.
Speaker 2:Would you ever write in a different location? I don't mean you physically writing, yeah, yeah you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Yeah, I do, you know. I mean I'll never say never because you know who knows. Right, I might. I mean I can't imagine it right now because I just feel like to be honest, part of it that like I'm worried.
Speaker 1:Having lived all my life in Alaska and doing so much research, I still worry about getting something wrong about a place. So you know, even as well as I know it, I do a lot of research to get the details right, and so I just sounds like it would be really hard to try to do that for a completely different place, and I I guess I'm one of these people that I try not to be a nitpicker, but when I read a book and if it's about a place that I kind of know and the author gets something wrong, um, about the kind of animal that lives there or what the climate's like or whatever, it just ruins it for me, and so I don't want to do that to a reader, so I don't. It would just take a lot of work for me to write about a different place, I think.
Speaker 2:I think as well you know, when you are writing about an area that you know you grew up or you grew up in, even in my books. So I write about southeast London and because that's that's where I live and that's where I grew up and I feel like you know, I always say I know what the river smells like. You know, I know exactly a really geeky thing. I know what birds are around a certain type of the year by the river Exactly A really geeky thing. I know what birds are around a certain type of the year by the river and I feel when you're that close to your location, you have, you feel like you have a responsibility to it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, absolutely yeah, and I feel like and I do see it happen a little bit with Alaska, and I think it can happen with anywhere where people write about it who maybe aren't from the place. Happen with anywhere where people write about it who maybe aren't from the place, um, and they and they don't, I I think I think sometimes the place gets misrepresented then because of it, and that's that bothers me, um, because every place has people there who that place is important to them, you know, and so, um, I and I feel like that, that's I can tell when I read someone who really knows the place they're writing about, because it comes through in the characters and, like you say, something as subtle as the smell and the air, like I love those details and I feel like they're really important.
Speaker 2:So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, advice, advice. If you could give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:yeah, I guess, just keep on following your heart. I mean, I feel like that's kind of what I've done and it sounds a little bit corny, um, but I just followed my instincts as a reader and a writer and I think I guess that's what I would tell myself just trust your instincts, um, and and go where you feel like you should go, and it'll all work out.
Speaker 2:And this is my new one I have now. So what is your non-writing tip for writers? It could be drink water.
Speaker 1:I think it's about getting out. It's so funny, it's interesting. Like you're talking about you were out for a walk and you saw the poster about something that triggered how you were going to handle a character, and I feel like I feel like getting outside of your whatever it is, whether it's going for a walk in your town, talking to people, going to like I feel like making everything in your life about writing can sometimes limit what, what you have to offer on the page, and so I think getting out and doing other things, meeting other people, interacting with people who do really different kinds of jobs or whatever I feel like that all feeds our writing and it's good to kind of get outside of that, that writer bubble that we all get into a little bit, I think.
Speaker 2:No, I think you're right, I mean, but like one of the things like you know, one of the things like you know, one of the few things like I've missed about, you know, being a lawyer and going to court and going to the office every day is it's the interaction with people and meeting different people.
Speaker 1:I know, yeah, and it's hard when you're a full-time writer because I just find I have to really work harder to get out like you don't have that, you know what they used to. Harder to get out like you don't have that. You know what they used to call water cooler talk. You know you don't have people just kind of come around with and and process your day with and it's harder. So you have to. I do find I have to make more of an effort to connect with friends, to go out and do things with friends, because it doesn't happen, naturally, the way it does when you're in a workplace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's true. And finally, where can?
Speaker 1:listeners of the conversation find you online. Yep, so I am. I almost drug me kicking and screaming onto Instagram, Facebook. I'm on everything. I even got on Blue Sky. So yeah, I'm on Facebook. On Instagram, Blue Sky, I'm everywhere. So yeah, you can find me. And that's the one. Sometimes, as a kid, I didn't like having such a strange, different name, but it makes it easy to people to find me online. There's only one, Ayo and Ivy, that I know of.
Speaker 2:You are easy to find. What are you working on next?
Speaker 1:So I have not started on anything, I'm just taking a break, like we were talking about. I find this time of of phase in the thing I just I, I don't have anything, I have no ideas. I've got no, no creative juice left, um, and I always kind of give myself the option to not write another book, like it really is okay if I don't write another book. I've got a lot of other wonderful things going on in my life and, um, I don't ever want it to feel like this thing that I have to make happen. If I can't make it happen, so we'll just see. I have no idea.
Speaker 2:I think it's so important to like acknowledge that, because I think this is the first time in about when did I sign so? 2019? So I think, yeah, it's just like the first time in about five, six years where I don't actually have anything to do right now, like I've done my outlines but I haven't. I don't know what I'm going to be working on next, and it's been so long it's literally been five, six years where I've been. I've been constantly doing something, so this isn't the first time I'm like I I could sleep in. I don't, I could just watch bad TV. I don't have anything to do.
Speaker 1:That feels good, Doesn't it? I mean, at some point I get antsy at some point, but sometimes it's nice to just let yourself just be like it's okay yeah.
Speaker 2:I had to say to myself cause I think I'm I'm constant. I, yeah, I had to say to myself because I think I'm, I'm constant. I've been used to be constantly doing something for like decades now and to not do anything. I was like, just you're allowed to just enjoy the moment. Yes, absolutely just enjoy it. Yes, let's enjoy it. But I've enjoyed talking to you, so that just leads me. Oh, I've so enjoyed talking.
Speaker 1:No, I really have too. This has been a really fun conversation and actually it feels like one of those collegiate, like the kind of collegial discussions you get to have when you work at a place and you have a work friend and you get to talk about what you're going through. So I just really appreciate having that chance to do that with you, thank you this is our.
Speaker 2:This is our water cooler moment yes, exactly, exactly, I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it, it's wonderful.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to officially say Ayo and Ivy. Thank you so much for being part of the conversation.
Speaker 1:Thank, you, nadine, it was really fun.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
