Coffee Break with Lola Jaye: The Manual for Good Wives

Author Lola Jaye joins me for a "Coffee Break" to talk about her new book "The Manual For Good Wives." This is the conversation that gave me the idea to launch the 'Coffee Break' series. 

As well as talking about her novel, Lola Jaye talks about what it takes to succeed as an author when the publishing industry doesn't know "where to place someone like you"? "Maybe that was the problem," she reflects, "because I wasn't writing about civil wars in Africa." Instead, she crafted stories about grief, love, and family;  human experiences that transcend race yet feature characters who look like her.

The Manual For Good Wives

Everything about Adeline Copplefield is a lie . . .

To the world Mrs Copplefield is the epitome of Victorian propriety: an exemplary society lady who writes a weekly column advising young ladies on how to be better wives.

Only Adeline has never been a good wife or mother; she has no claim to the Copplefield name, nor is she an English lady . . .

Now a black woman, born in Africa, who dared to pretend to be something she was not, is on trial in the English courts with all of London society baying for her blood. And she is ready to tell her story . . .

Follow Lola Jaye 

Lola Jaye is a critically acclaimed author & psychotherapist who has penned seven novels and a self-help book. She was born and raised in London, England and has lived in Nigeria and the United States. 

Lola has a keen interest in Black history and bringing untold stories to life.  In 2024 Lola appeared as an expert in a major two part Channel Four documentary entitled, ‘Titanic in Colour,’ highlighting stories of its passengers and little known historical facts surrounding the infamous ship. 

She has written for CNN, HuffPost and the BBC. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Lola Jay
• 2:34 Eight-Year Journey to Publication
• 10:19 Writing Authentic Stories
• 17:24 Publishing Industry Changes
• 24:13 Writing Advice and Self-Belief
• 32:06 Pivoting to Historical Fiction
• 40:31 The Manual for Good Wives

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Conversation Coffee Break with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you're enjoying your week. Now joining me for our coffee break today is author Lola Jay, and she published her first novel way back in 2008 and that novel was called. By the Time you Read this, lola started with contemporary fiction and then she moved into historical fiction, and the novel that we're talking about today in our coffee break is called the Manual for Good Wives, and it's available now. And the thing about this episode of Coffee Break this is the episode where you will see, because you can watch this episode on YouTube where you will see, because you can watch this episode on YouTube and you can hear when I have the brainwave to introduce a new segment of the conversation called Coffee Break. I really hope you enjoyed this episode. As always, please leave a review. You can do that on Apple Podcasts, if that's where you're listening. You can leave comments on Spotify and I can reply to those comments. Or you can just leave me messages on my social media posts. And also, if you're enjoying a coffee break, please buy me a cup of coffee. The link is in the show notes your gift of a cup of coffee helps keep the podcast going. Now, as I usually say on the conversation podcast, sit back or go for a walk, but instead grab a cup of coffee or tea and enjoy your break.

Speaker 1: 1:33

Lola j, welcome to the conversation. Hello, nice to have you here. Right, lola, I'm going to show you something. Right, I'm going to show you something. Right, I'm going to show you this Glasses I'm going to show you. So I'm showing you While you Were Dreaming, which I think is your second book. Yeah, and I remember when I bought it and I think I was leaving work and I wandered into WH Smith and I saw it on the shelf and I bought it, and then, obviously, I opened it and I some, I bonded into WH Smith and I saw it on the shelf and I bought it, and then, obviously, I opened it and I saw your glorious picture. Oh my gosh, don't run that anymore, do I? I saw this black woman in it and I just thought, oh my gosh, I have to get her book.

Speaker 1: 2:18

So my question to you, layla, is how would you describe your writing journey from, I say, the publication of, not this one, of your first one, while you were? Well, no, yeah, by the time you read this to present day, the manual for good rice. Oh, my gosh, we need to start before that because, okay, before that, people always ask me that you know, I always I like like this, saying it takes almost an eternity to become an overnight success, right, because the first book did really well, but it took me eight years to find an agent. Eight years, eight years and this was the days before you can kind of talk to an agent online or whatever you know, on Twitter or something. Oh, I shouldn't say that word, but yeah, bad saying that word. But yeah, yeah, it was before all of that. It took me eight years of sending manuscripts in the post. This is very archaic times and um, getting you know, waiting maybe two weeks to a month, maybe even three months to get a response, and the response was usually no or yeah, you can write, but we don't know where to put someone like you. That was my favourite one.

Speaker 1: 3:29

We wouldn't know where to place you and I knew that was code for something. Yeah, but what were you? But I mean, how would you describe the books you were writing? Because I would just say it's just normal contemporary fiction. Maybe that was the problem, because I wasn't writing about black pain and trauma. Um, yes, there was trauma in it, but the first one, as you know, was about a dad who was dying and he wanted to leave his a manual for his child, and that is a universal pain, isn't it? It's universal. He could literally be any color, even though he was obviously a black man. I was writing about, you know, someone that looks like me, but, um, it was a universal type of pain and issue. It wasn't, you know, a civil war in Africa and stuff like that. I'm just guessing, but when I kept getting the same thing, we wouldn't know where to place you, and maybe there's only room for one.

Speaker 1: 4:23

I don't know who else was there. Though, if we're looking back in 2008, 2000 and well before that, I don't describe my work, especially then, as literary fiction. It'll be commercial fiction. So I don't know, you tell me, um, I don't know. I'm trying to think early, like early 2000s, if you're, that's when you're sending your book out. Yeah, yeah, dorothy Coombson came along, you know, at some point, but, um, before, yeah, when I was querying, it would have been a long time before that. You're not going to age me by telling me when that was I'm not going to age you who else was out there, because I can't think of anyone else who was out there to compare you with. And maybe that's the problem, because if you haven't got a tried and tested formula, if what is tried and tested is black trauma, we'll stick with that.

Speaker 1: 5:15

There was a lot of American black writers and they were killing it. I mean, when I was in school and college, I would read Eric Jerome Dickey. He was writing about universal themes, about love, um, things that affects everybody. So that was amazing. But for UK we're gonna have to, yeah, put our thinking cap on for that. So when I was querying, I don't think there was any. So I was trying to break the mold but it wasn't working because nobody wanted me.

Speaker 1: 5:42

How do you like? Also like, what does that do to your psyche? But how do you keep pushing through that? Because, as I said, there was no reason. If you know, if I said, considering what you were writing, there was no reason for you not to be picked up immediately and just put on a I say just put on a shelf anywhere. Yeah, your question what kept me going is that? Hopefully, that's an illusion. I can break this.

Speaker 1: 6:13

A better word to use is self-belief. You've got to have this incredible self-belief as a writer I never say aspiring writer, because I think as soon as you pick up, you're a writer you have to have this crazy amount of self-belief that I can do it, no matter what agents are telling me. Even maybe some editors might be saying, because they're communicating by what is out there. So if you see what's out, there is nothing that looks like you or what you write. That's another communication that you shouldn't be doing this. But you need to block that noise and say, okay, I'm going to, I can be a trailblazer, I can do what I want to do. But that comes with self-belief and knowing that you can do it and it might not happen tomorrow Like you want it to, but it will eventually happen.

Speaker 1: 6:56

So I think I had so much self-belief in myself at that point and a bit of delusion, definitely because you have to, because it's like you want to be a writer, okay, all right, you know, and you, you get met with that sometimes, as you may have got met with that when you decide is it what you want? Is this what you always want to do, though, because obviously you're a psychotherapist, but writing was that it. I'm totally blessed that I, when I was a kid, I said I wanted to be a psychotherapist and a writer, and I'm literally doing that now the psychotherapist. I only wanted one client and that client would pay me like a thousand pounds an hour. But, um, yeah, I'm actually doing what I wanted to do. So I knew I wanted to have something to fall back on, because, even though I have the self-confidence that I'm going to be a writer, I want to be a therapist because that'll, that'll always be something I can do. Um, so, yeah, I studied, I did my master's degree and when I did my thesis, which was 20,000 words, I thought, oh, I've just done 20,000 words, just like that.

Speaker 1: 8:00

I'm gonna write my book now. I'm ready. Yeah, I know how naive. And so after that, immediately handling my thesis, then I've started on my first book. You know, always when I think back to those uni days and doing that dissertation and you're you're told, oh, you've got your word limit, your word count, it has to be it's like 15,000 or 20,000 words, and you're thinking how the hell am I gonna write 15,000, 20,000 words? This is gonna take me forever. Yeah, you do. And then, when you think about the word count for novels, like I think I'm contracted to write a hundred thousand, oh my god. And now I'm like god, I wish I can, I wish I'll meet that, because I know I always go over my number, edit things. Oh my god, she's gone over. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it how? But you get it done, right. Yeah, get it done. Yeah, so it takes you eight years, because I always say there's no overnight successes. Very really are there, they're always. There is this journey.

Speaker 1: 9:04

So can you think back to that moment when you got the yes, oh my gosh, yes, I'll never forget it. So to the agent, or the publication, which one? To the agent, because you always think that's the big hurdle in it, because you always just think after that the publication will just be a click of the fingers. But I'll say the agent um, you know, that's the one I least remember, because I remember when I feel, yeah, I think, because it was such a long and drawn-out process.

Speaker 1: 9:32

There used to be something called the Winchester Writers Festival and you were allowed to have five minutes with a, with an agent, and, um, she was one of the, the two that I had, you know. And the other one said oh, I'd like your work, send me. And she said I like your work, send it to me. And then she took me on. But I don't. Yeah, I must have been excited. I just can't remember it as much as when I heard that I got you know, I got a publishing contract. Yeah, I think it was like it's eight years, man, come on, maybe I was just re-hydrated at that point. That I just, you know, I don't know, because it's a good question.

Speaker 1: 10:05

I don't remember where I was, but I remember exactly where I was when I got the news and I was walking through this weird alleyway. I just know I can see it now and I can feel those feelings, but I can't. Yeah, what were you feeling? Oh my gosh, I was just walking through, I was working for the NHS as a and it's her, and it was just like, yeah, and it only been on submission, not even that long. And then she told me it was Harper Collins. You know Harper Collins, or Penguin, or you know another one, you know the top three and it was them. And I just it was amazing, it was such an amazing feeling. It was so beautiful. Yeah, I loved it.

Speaker 1: 10:52

Did you ever think, not think, though. I can't believe it's taken this long like. I've been working on this for years, I've been querying, I've been knocking at that door and then you finally get. You get the yes, but it's not like a little bit of like it shouldn't have taken this long. I should have been here eight years ago. Obviously it was a while ago now.

Speaker 1: 11:12

I don't remember feeling that way. I just remember feeling, okay, it's my time now, because I always have this thing, because you see other people having publishing contracts um, not many, look like me at the time I gotta say, yeah, I never have this and this, this is the same for me today. I never or I try not to no, I don't. I don't have this feeling of envy or jealousy with somebody else, or you know, I was speaking to a writer the other day and I asked her the same question how long did it take you? It was literally overnight to get an agent. The agent came to that person and when she said that and she said I feel guilty for saying that I said, don't, that's your story, my story is my story and that's yours and it's okay. You know so there are so many different stories, but I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1: 11:58

So when it happened, I'm just glad it happened, like and lucky I don't share. I don't share with people that I wanted to be a writer because you know it was taking a while, but my partner at the time you know he knew and it's like, oh, you feel a bit inadequate that it's not happened. But luckily I only told one person. If I told a whole tribe of people then I think that would have fed into it's taking so long because I would have been taking on their anxieties, not my own, and it's so easy for other people's. No, and that's so true because I remember, like way, way, way before anything happened, before I even self-published, um, like my first book, and like. So my friends knew I wrote and my, like some of my family knew I wrote. And I remember one of my cousins. I gave him something to read, just to read it. Just let me know what you know, let him know what, let me know what he thinks.

Speaker 1: 12:48

And in every minute after that, you finish the book. Yet you finish the book, yet you finish the book. Yet I haven't finished the book yet. I've got to work, I've got other things to do. I haven't finished yet. And it's not just you just finish it in a week. So you understand, it's like sometimes you have to keep your, like, your ambitions and your plans like private to yourself, absolutely, absolutely. I don't want to take on other people's anxiety, so I think that's how I kind of got through it.

Speaker 1: 13:16

Um, as I said, it was a long time ago. Maybe I felt a bit different, but I just knew that when it happened, it's like okay, I excelled and I'm like, okay, this is when it was meant to happen. It wasn't meant to happen at such and such times. Um, now time, and I just kind of ran with it really, because it was all like a, an amazing whirlwind and this was before the market crashed in the world, so there was a lot money around then. So you know, publishers would take me, take me and other writers to spas, dinners, and it was just, it was a great time. See, that's the whole I call it the hallmark movie dream of being a writer.

Speaker 1: 13:54

When you because you told me this before that you got your the publishers took you to a spa. So what do you mean? They took you to a spa. Yeah, they took me to a spa. I've never been taken. I've been taken out to lunch, but the idea of being going out to a spa with other writers because it just seemed, it seems such, it's, it's such opulence, it was in another, in another part of England. It wasn't in London, another part. Well then it gets. Even I say it gets worse, it gets better, but either way, it gets worse or gets better. No, I've heard. No anyone has been taken out to a spa. Yeah, it doesn't happen anymore.

Speaker 1: 14:28

No, how else has publishing changed from publication of your first book to now? Well, you know, as I said, the reason why I wanted to write as a little girl was because, you know, I was an avid reader and I wanted to read about people that look like me, right? So, um, that, you know, I started to write and the publishing industry, you know, bring us back, to bring us up to 2020, 2020. And there was an influx of books of people who looked like me. It was so wonderful. But we know, reading the results now, that things have kind of backslided a little bit, unfortunately. So I feel that change is the one that I feel yeah, is is is the most the one that's effectively the most seeing that is the most the one that's effectively the most seeing that, because I remember walking past Waterstones in quite an affluent part of London I don't live there, by the way, but I was just passing and there were these children's books, and like five of them in a window were black people, and it wasn't Black History Month.

Speaker 1: 15:29

It was glorious to see. That's what you want. It was wonderful to see this is what you want. 22. It was wonderful to see that. Um, and I say long may that continue, but we will see. But there was something about that. I remember taking a video of it. I was just so shocked. The video was just for myself. I posted it online, but I don't think anyone's unless they were, I don't know, unless they were maybe black or readers, whatever would see the significance. I didn't caption it, but I just put it there. It was amazing, all these children's books with black faces on the front, and I thought, wow, there was nothing like that when I was a child, and this is just amazing. So that was a new moment for me.

Speaker 1: 16:08

How does it feel, though, you know, when, when you, when you do see the report, because I always mean I've written about it that when these reports come out, like once a year or twice a year, and I just roll my eyes like I can't be. I ain't got the energy to sit there and be like, oh my god, I can't. It's like yes, because it's the same, it's the same conclusion once or twice a year. So how do you feel when you see that there's literally there's it's not even one step forward, ten step backwards. It's like it's just no steps forwards at all. You know, working as a therapist, I think sometimes my outlook can be a bit not dark, jaded um, we don't use the word dark for negativity but, um, jaded a little bit, because it's not just the public policy industry, it's all around us.

Speaker 1: 16:54

2020 was so pivotal, um, you know, we were talking about race, you know, in a wider platform for the first time, and it was almost to me I'm going to talk for myself it was almost insulting, because it's almost like people suddenly acknowledged that racism existed, right. So, yeah, every organization put out statement. You know this was quite the norm, but I think five years is a typical mark for things to go back, so nothing really surprises me. So to me, it doesn't surprise me and I'm actually okay about it, because I expected this and that's okay. What we need to do.

Speaker 1: 17:30

Well, hey, I don't have the power to change that, but what I can do is make sure that when I'm writing my books, I make sure I implement in those books what I want to, and for me, I like to put black history in there. Um, we know what's happening in America. We don't need to go there. We're in England, right? So thanks, we don't have any banned books, you know. But I am going to put black history in my books, especially my historical fiction, because, as I you know that quote by Chinua Achebe until the lions have their own voices, you're only going to hear about the hunters, right? Yeah, so I'm going to make sure that in my historical fiction books, whether I'm writing about romance, um, or whatever there's going to be a sprinkling of black history in there from a black person's perspective. And that's all I can do. Um, and I'll I'll try to keep doing that the best I can when I'm writing my historical fiction books.

Speaker 1: 18:22

Untold stories that's that's my passion is untold stories, um, the publishing industry is going to do what it's going to do. The world is going to do what it's going to do. The world is literally on fire at the moment. It's going to do what it's going to do. The world is going to do what it's going to do. The world is literally on fire at the moment. It's going to do what it's going to do. So I need to, we all need to try to be able to exist in the madness and be okay. I need to be okay.

Speaker 1: 18:43

Did you ever not feel like a temptation though I don't even know if temptation is the right word so like going back when you, when you are querying and you're being told I don't know where to place you, I don't know where it fits. Did you not ever feel like, well, maybe I should cause I'm thinking of that film, american fiction, or the book American fiction with Perseverant, you know, and he just wants to tell you a story. And he has, and he's been, they want him to like, you know the typical ghetto stereotype, gangland, yeah, back, gang Novel. So did you ever ever think, well, maybe, why don't I just give them what they want? No, because I know I'd be okay. And again, that's that delusional self-belief. Again it's like yeah, it's fine, I'll be okay. It took an eternity, but I was right. Yeah, yeah, an eternity, but I was right. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, I never. No, no, it's a good. You know, sometimes the self-delusion is a good thing to have, because if it wasn't for self-delusion, a lot of people wouldn't do anything. They're just, yeah, in the same place. Yeah, I've been.

Speaker 1: 19:50

I've been asked to write a certain book before it's a long time ago, and I refused. Um, really, oh, yeah, we're not going to go into it, but it it wasn't great and, um, I refused, to my detriment. Um, I guess to my detriment in many ways, but not naturally personally, all that sort of, but not my relationship with self, which is really important. But it's kind of insulting though, isn't it to fit when someone's saying to you, because it'd be, it'd be completely different if someone was saying it to, whether it's an editor or a completely new publisher, saying it to you in terms of, oh, we've got, we want you to ghostwrite something. Can you write this? Because it just becomes a project, it's an ip project. But asking you to change fundamentally, I suppose, who you are and what you believe in in order to I don't know, just to make, just to see yourself on the shelf and just to make some money, it is a bit, I think it is a bit insulting. I don't know in my situation it was that deep, but I just knew that I would never write a book like that and I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1: 20:59

Um, I've heard things about my favorite antidote or story that I heard from somebody. This was more tv, where, um, she developed this character, um, a black boy who was, who is into comics, um, and was a bit geeky, yeah, and they were like, no, no, no, make him into rap music. And oh yeah, he liked rock. He liked rock. No, no, he has to like rap music and he can't be into comics. And it's like, dude, really, there are so many black boys that are into comics and there are some black people that like rock music, you know, and there are some black people that don't like hip-hop. Breaking news, right.

Speaker 1: 21:37

So we are so not a monolith, and that's the thing I want to get in my writing. So, whilst my historical fiction is going to have a sprinkling of black history, it's all also going to show that we're not a monolith. So if, like the manual for good wives, my latest book this is half of it is set in Victorian England, an African person in those times would be seen as maybe I don't know a former enslaved person. If they managed to end up in England, they will be living in the slums, if they exist at all, because, remember, black people only came here during Windrush. They weren't here before right. So I want to dispel that myth and show a genteel black woman who lives in 1888 in London, has her own home, is not a maid, she actually has her own maid. How about that? And I know there were black women in this country who had that, because I researched them. But oh, no, no, no, no, they have to, you know. So for me to have the freedom to write, that is amazing in this day and age and I'll continue to do that.

Speaker 1: 22:40

Has anyone ever come back to you with that in terms of like reviews? Because you know, when you see, when you read readers reviews, they can come up with a lot of things. They do come up with a lot of stuff. Yeah, well, thankfully they show you if it's I mean thankfully, I do like the. The five star reviews 4.75. If I come across one, that's and I'm not looking at it and that's something I've learned a long time ago not to do.

Speaker 1: 23:05

When I was a I call myself a baby author. Um, I would ignore all the five star reviews and only look at the lower ones. See, I never did that. I just couldn't do it to myself. Oh, I did it to myself, you know, so I would read it. So now I've told myself I'm never doing that again, since the second novel never just focus on the good stuff.

Speaker 1: 23:25

So maybe in the, in the small reviews not that I have many boom, boom, but maybe in those ones they would say that but yeah, I don't, I don't want that to enter my psyche, because it's really hard to write a book. Um, I don't need any outward destruction. Sometimes I'm not well. Um, you know, I suffer from a chronic illness. If I'm having a moment with that, I cannot, um, have my mind taken somewhere else. Oh, my gosh, I'm clearly not good enough. I'm not good at this, because that's what it will breed if you start reading these bad reviews and so, um, no, I don't. My energy is best spent not procrastinating and getting on with the novel. So I don't know, I can't believe you even went there in the first place looking at the first, the one and two star reviews, because I would have been immediately. I don't need to even went there in the first place looking at the one and two star reviews, because I would have been immediately. I don't need to know like I'm not interested. There's nothing you can. There's nothing you can tell me in your one or two star review that's going to benefit me in any shape or form.

Speaker 1: 24:23

I was a baby author. I was naive. I ain't doing that again ever. Yeah. And when people write to me, yeah, and when people write to me, they don't. They don't write with bad things, although there was a typo once in one of the books and someone did write to tell me. I thanked her, my publisher's, excuse me, no, and then they changed it for the next one. So that was beneficial, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:51

So, looking back, because we got a shorter interview today, we had loads of technical. Yes, it was a, it was a mad day, a mad start to our recording. So this is like a I couldn't like. It's like a fast track conversation, but we want it some. Yeah, we're gonna do. We're gonna do another one. I think we'll do another one in season four, yeah, so, yeah, we're gonna have you back.

Speaker 1: 25:14

So what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told, like earlier in your career? Oh, oh, my gosh, I knew this answer yesterday because I thought about it. I remember thinking I wish someone had told me this um, ah, I think it's coming. Um, do you know what? I don't remember what it was. I'm gonna full disclosure. I just thought of one. Um, I'm trying to put it in the antidote, but maybe I just won't.

Speaker 1: 25:52

Basically, what one person finds amazing, another one might find crap. Can I use the word crap? Of course you can. You can say anything you want within reason. Okay, yeah. So if we go back to the reviews again, you might get someone who thinks it's the best book they've ever read. You might get someone who thinks it's boring. So to me, if you're constantly trying to please everybody with your writing, you're going to get nowhere because you're going to be deleting, editing, deleting editing to this person's taste, that person's taste.

Speaker 1: 26:24

Write for you, especially in that first draft or the second draft, third draft you haven't sent it out yet or whatever write for you. I think the inauthenticity of it will show if you're just writing to please people. So one person might think it's amazing, another person may not. That's okay, it's what you think that matters. Is this the best you can do? This is the best fifth draft you can do. This is the best story arc you can do. It's you.

Speaker 1: 26:52

You are literally the consumer, the editor, the agent in that first instance, because I think at one point I know you asked me this question before did I ever try to fit? Um, no, but I remember writing stuff and trying to I don't know agents saying, don't like this, you know, and trying to fit that and you're just wasting time. Um, just just write. I know it sounds really simplistic and someone else, yeah, yeah, but it sounds simple. I say it is simplistic, but it is the best piece of advice I think that you can give to a writer. You know it's.

Speaker 1: 27:30

It's just another way of saying just write the story that you want to read yourself. Yes, because the minute you start trying to, I know you start trying to emulate someone else. Or, or, if I say so, I can, whenever I'm going to write a historical fiction, but I want to write like a Lola Jay book, I'm not being true to myself. Yes, I'm showing an appreciation of you, but it's not being true to my writing and, yeah, and to myself generally. So you, just you have to write the story that you want, that you would want to read yourself, and you find and you'll find your voice. Absolutely it's that story that's burning inside of you.

Speaker 1: 28:04

And and someone asked me, someone wants to start writing a book. And they asked me the other day you know I don't know what to do. And I said you know that simplistic response. Right, and they looked at me like was crazy. So then I just kind of backtracked and said, ok, what you need to do, because obviously you're doing all this preparation. You're going to be in a state of preparation for five more years at this stage. So read. I know you just said now I want to write a Lola J book, but there's ways around that.

Speaker 1: 28:30

I said to him read the type of book that you want to write, not to plagiarize it, but just to read how they've done it. You want to write not to plagiarise it, but just to read how they've done it, the structure, the beginning, the middle, the end, and get a synopsis down Again a beginning, middle and end. And that was the advice I gave to him, because he's been procrastinating for 10 years and not doing anything and I think deep down there was a fear. And I said to him I mean this person I really respect, so I was kind of choosing my word lightly and I said is it fear? I don't want to put words into your mouth. And he said yeah, it is well, it's a fear.

Speaker 1: 29:06

It's a fear like it's probably like it's a fear of failure, isn't it? Because you have? You have no idea, no idea how this writing journey of yours is going to turn out. It could be that the piece you write today, it gets submitted, it gets picked up, and then it goes supernova and you're everywhere and you have the writing career that you just dream of. Or it could be the other way around, where you just keep writing and writing right and nothing happens, and then, when it does get published, well, it's published, but then you can't find it in bookshops and it there's so many points on the spectrum where you could fall. So of course, that that fair is not going to be surprising. No, and it's the same for so many different things, so many walks of life.

Speaker 1: 29:47

I mean, when someone says to me that they're procrastinating, procrastination can be a fear of failure a lot of the time, because once you start the task, oh my gosh, now you it can actually go wrong or go well if you don't start it, and this is unconscious to me as a therapist speaking now so, unconsciously, if you don't start it, there's literally zero part of you failing because you ain't started it. Well, yeah, I'll start it next month. So there's no evidence that I failed it because I'm not going to start until next month. It's great, you know.

Speaker 1: 30:18

It always goes back to those stories that we tell ourselves. It's crazy, the stories we tell ourselves that could stop us pursuing the thing that we really want to do. Or even when we do do it, we tell ourselves a story to stop ourselves from pushing ourselves further. Like we, we something. Like we play small and just try and keep safe, yeah, or we listen to others, um, others around us. That's why we spoke earlier about telling people that you're writing a book.

Speaker 1: 30:48

Choose who you tell wisely, because you know people have their own issues. How do you know that jane doe, that you've told that you're writing a book, hasn't secretly wanted to write a book and you're actually doing what she wanted to do, but she's not been able to for so maybe I don't know practical reasons or financial reasons, and you're doing it. Her response to you may not be favorable and you're going to take on some of that. So just be careful who you tell. If you're going to tell, you know, with me and you, we hardly tell anybody, right? But, um, just be careful who you tell.

Speaker 1: 31:21

And also, when's the book coming out? When's the book coming out? Um, that's a horrible pressure to have because it's a whole thing. It's a whole procedure. It's not just unless you're self-publishing. Even if you're self-publishing, you still have to always say you should have to put the work in. So we need to have a plan. You still need to follow all the steps that a traditional publisher would follow. The difference is you're doing it yourself as opposed to having a whole team out there doing it for you.

Speaker 1: 31:46

Exactly, yeah, yeah, it's a hard, it's a. I say it's a hard industry, but I think it's one way it's good to have support around you. Even though we say you know, keep your circle of trust small, it's still important to have a circle around you who knows what you're going through and can support you. I agree, and I think I've only taken advantage of that fairly recently. Um, it must have been since post lockdown, um, because before I was just an island, it was just me. Um, none of my immediate friends, right? Um, so, yeah, but then now. I've got a lot of author friends now and, um, they've talked me off a ledge a few times and vice versa. You know so, they understand. You know so. You know, in this day and age, you know, we don't make phone calls, we text.

Speaker 1: 32:37

And I picked up the phone and it's the best-selling author, she's huge. I rang her but I said had enough, and she just was brilliant. What did she say? If you're prepared to share it, what did she say to you? Sometimes you don't remember what people say, but you remember how to make you feel, as the gorgeous, my angel, said, yeah, and I just know that she was just great. She wasn't striking my ego. I don't respond to that, she was just being very practical because I know that she's been through it herself and, um, and I know where she is now, which is, you know, up there but, um, she was just wonderful. I literally don't remember what she said, but I know how she made me feel. You know who you are. So, yeah, I think that's important to recognise, because even the other day was it yesterday, or what day is it today? It's Thursday, no, tuesday.

Speaker 1: 33:28

I'm not going to say it was, but I'd messaged someone who is big, I say a big, massive author. And I was talking I wasn't afraid it's was asking him how things are going, asking him for a copy of his book, because I'm like, listen, I don't normally beg and I will pre-order. However, I need your, I need a proof copy. And I was saying to him, how do you feel? And he's like, oh, I'm nervous. And I'm like, why are you nervous? You're gonna be fine. And it's like, no, I'm nervous.

Speaker 1: 33:59

And I said, well, you know, what's interesting is the fact that it doesn't matter how big you get and it doesn't matter how many books you write, even if we just take whether you're a bestseller or not out of it doesn't matter how many books you write that feeling of nervousness is this book going to be, I say accepted, and I mean accepted in the sense of are the readers going to like it? Is it going to be reviewed? Well, that feeling never goes away, that your eighth book will always feel like your your first book, yeah, yeah, but I'm gonna turn that on its head, and maybe in a positive way, because I think you're just really complacent about it. Then maybe we have to rethink. Maybe there is healthy nerves obviously not throwing up and stuff, but healthy nerves and, um, maybe that's a good thing because you still care, you actually know, I think, no, I agree, I think you need it, like you, definitely, you need that healthy dose of nervousness. You still need to care. Like I always talk, I always say that in relation to, I say, being a criminal lawyer the minute you don't care, the minute things I say, you won't be affected in sense of like, I can't do this case because you need to be able to compartmentalize yourself. But the minute you're no longer caring or things really don't trigger you in a little way, then you might as well walk away. I hear you. You need that, you need that to keep, to keep giving you that drive, to keep that momentum going. Sure for sure, I agree, yeah, yeah, right, because we're doing a shortened version of this interview, because we're going to have you back, so I'm not going to ask you your final set of questions. I'm going to save that for Lola J, part two, because I think that that's a good, that's a good thing to do. So what I'm going to ask you about? Because I'm going to ask you about the manual, no, I'm going to ask you about the manual for good, wise.

Speaker 1: 35:49

But before I ask you about that, why did you pivot from what I would call, you know, just commercial contemporary fiction to historical? Um, oh gosh. Yeah, so there was a big, huge gap between um books. So, um, oh gosh, my memory so while you're dreaming and by the time you read, this were the first two. Then I had a third book called being Lara. That was actually only released in America and Germany and some other places did really well in America, but I didn't get a publisher for UK. Can you imagine having a book in other countries? Yeah, I didn't get a publisher, and normally it's the other way around, like you'll struggle, like it was hard work to get a US publisher. Yeah, and it was a bestseller in America. It was like in Target and all those places. So, um, that was interesting.

Speaker 1: 36:39

So then after that I had a long break. Um, you know, I moved to America and just things weren't happening. And then when I came back, um, I did what we call sagas, um, and they were like historical, um fiction and yeah, it just kind of like okay, I'm writing about World War II. I was very interested in, you know, um, black history, because I was getting fed up with people saying that we weren't here before Windrush and a lot more was coming up thanks to the internet about our contribution in World War I and World War II. Um, you know, caribbean people, african people, we were part of it, so I had to write about that. So it was more of a burning sensation of, like you know, of injustice that you know, I want to tell these stories.

Speaker 1: 37:26

And then the epic historical fiction just came about the attic child. You probably know the story of that. I saw a photo of a little boy and I was actually I actually just sold another saga which was set in World War II, but when I saw that picture of that boy, I walked away from the contract. I said, no, don't want that, no more, I want to write this. You walked away. Yeah, look, it wasn't a million quid, but you know what I mean. No, but it don't. You know what. You could have just lied. We could have just said it was a million pounds. You know what I mean. But, yeah, I, this boy, I had to write his story. I had to write his story, um, and so I got out of that contract, wrote this story and that's it, and so that was more of an epic historical, so those sagas are very small. This one was huge and obviously that's how it.

Speaker 1: 38:14

We now get to the manual for good wives, which again is quite big, but the attitude was 130,000 words. I usually struggle. Now get to the Manual for Good Wives, which again is quite big, but the Attitude Child, was 130,000 words. I usually struggle to get to 70,000, but I just kept writing and writing and writing because there was something in me. It was almost like the ghost of the little boy was telling me to get on with it. It was amazing. It was like the easiest book I wrote but the most complicated. And the Manual for Good Wives.

Speaker 1: 38:38

You're're gonna tell the listeners of the conversation about the manual for good wives and then we're gonna say goodbye to Lola J, but we are gonna bring her back. I might make this a new thing, might do it like little mini interviews, mini conversations. The manual for good wives is loosely based on my grandparents, you know, falling in love. They were literally an African version of Romeo and Juliet. They were not supposed to fall in love, so I used that for the first part.

Speaker 1: 39:03

But most of the book is really a love letter to black women, really, and it shows how gender roles with women haven't really changed, because one half is set in the eight you know the Victorian times. The other half is set now and obviously things have changed for women, but clearly not enough. If we look at both of these women's stories, temi and Landry. Landry is a professional woman but her partner is very much threatened by her profession. You know her professional status and it's quite controlling. Temi 1888, she's trying to make her way as a black woman in Victorian London. So we know the issues that come there. But she takes no prisoners. Both these women are just boss bitches.

Speaker 1: 39:47

Am I allowed to say that? You said it? It's fine. I always think my nan is watching, but she literally is not. It's completely off topic. I always feel this way about, if you're noticing, my books. I don't really write sex scenes because I'm like, oh god, one, I can't be asked. But two, mum, dad's gonna read it. Yeah too, right, but yeah, so that. So it's a love letter to, to womanhood and specifically black women, because we don't get many love letters, do we? No, oh, we do. We need, we need more books that are love letters to, to black women. We definitely need more of that.

Speaker 1: 40:29

Okay, before I let you go, I'm gonna ask you this one question. I always ask now so this is in regards to your book if you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters in the manual for good wives, whom would you choose and why? Oh my gosh, um, oh, man, that's a great question. It is, isn't it? I stole it from oprah, I'm not even gonna lie, okay, um, okay, um, I don't think temi needs me.

Speaker 1: 41:05

She's, she's pretty, she's pretty cool. Um, okay, I don't want to give too much away. She, she's always felt very much unloved. She's not a main character, she's quite a minor character. Um, she's not in it much, but she's. She's felt unloved her entire life. Um, so I'd love to spend some time with her, give her a hug and tell her that she's, she's worthy, she's gonna be okay. You know, I always find interesting about that question. It's never really the main character who the awful ones are spending afternoon with.

Speaker 1: 41:40

I think the number of times I've asked, I think one person out of maybe 10 has mentioned a main character. It's normally some I say some minor someone in the background. They want to spend the afternoon with me, right? Yeah, definitely her. And you know, if you read the book, you'll you'll know why she's not. She's not a great girl, but there's reasons why she's not a great girl.

Speaker 1: 42:02

Yeah, and you want to give her a hug? Absolutely yeah, we all need a nice fluffy hug, don't we? We do well, lola j, this is going to be our shorter. This is our mini. It's just like a, our coffee break conversation. This is what I'm going to call it.

Speaker 1: 42:17

I'm going to do a new segment. I think I'll call them the coffee break conversations so, which means that you're going to come back, we're going to have you back in season four and we'll do a full conversation. Oh god, season four is going to start in september. Excuse me, I coughed, yeah, so we will bring you, we will bring you back into a full conversation with Lola J. I'll be there, okay? So this leads me to say not goodbye, but see you later, lola J, and we'll have you back on the conversation. See you later, and that's it for this coffee break. Thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 1: 42:57

Starting from season four, we'll be bringing you regular coffee breaks 20 minute episodes, perfect for a quick chat with your favorite authors about their latest book. And here's the fun part next season, we're answering your questions. If there's something you've always wanted to ask an author, send it in email, your question to the conversation at nadinemathesoncom and we might just answer it in a future episode. With a special shout out to you until next time, keep reading, keep listening, and I'll see you soon for another coffee break. Oh, and before I forget, don't forget like, review and share this episode with your friends. Your support keeps the podcast growing and if you head down to the show notes, you can also support the podcast by buying us a cup of coffee. The links are in the show notes.