Linwood Barclay: The Pursuit of Perfection and Runaway Trains

"I don't know what it is about writing," muses Linwood Barclay in the opening moments of this conversation. "Even when you've had success and think, 'I don't have to write anymore, I've got money in the bank,' there's always this feeling that if I could write just one more book, maybe it'll be perfect."

This pursuit of the perfect novel drives our fascinating conversation with the New York Times and Sunday Times bestselling author, whose journey from aspiring writer facing countless rejections to international success offers a masterclass in patience and perseverance. Barclay candidly reveals how his 30-year career in newspapers provided invaluable training before publishing his first novel at 49, and how it was actually his fifth book, "No Time For Goodbye" that became his breakout hit.

We delve into publishing industry changes, the challenges of adaptation attempts, and the reason his latest supernatural thriller "Whistle" (which aims to make toy trains as terrifying as horror cinema has made dolls) was the most fun he's had writing in a decade.

Whether you're a writer seeking inspiration or a reader curious about the mind behind bestselling thrillers, this episode offers wisdom, humour, and Linwood Barclay's surprisingly practical advice for authors.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I don't know what it is about writing. I mean, you just keep trying, even when you've had success, and you think, well, I don't have to write anymore, I've got money in the bank, I can just stop. But there's always like, yeah, but if I could write just one more book, maybe it'll be perfect. It'll be the one where I get I just because every book that you do, you look at it and think, yeah. Think yeah, it's okay, but this part wasn't great or I could have done better there. I was trying to write that book. That will be just the one.

Speaker 2: 0:30

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and you may have noticed that this is a double episode week, and the reason why you're getting a double episode week is because we are winding down to the end of season three. I know, I know, but it's been a long season. We started, I think, way back in September, way back in September, and the season's going to end next month, in July. So don't worry, don't panic. You know we've got a little while to go, but we are winding down, which is why you are getting these double episodes.

Speaker 2: 1:08

And before we start today's conversation, can I just take a moment to say how much I enjoy being the host of this podcast. I enjoy the conversations that I have with all of my guests. They are always inspiring, entertaining, enlightening and I enjoy hearing the reactions from the listeners. This podcast is growing and it's amazing to see. And I'm gonna have a small request for you. You know I always have a small request. I'll usually make it right at the end of the conversation, but my request is if you have enjoyed this conversation and previous conversations, can you please take a moment to leave a review. You don't have to write an epic essay, you can just leave a short comment. You can just hit the like button, if you can.

Speaker 2: 1:53

I think on Apple Podcasts you can highlight the stars. But the reviews, the comments, the likes, the subscriptions, the follows, they really help the podcast. I'm not sure how, I don't know how algorithms work, but they work and it really helps the podcast. And in addition to leaving a review to show how much you love the podcast, you can also buy me a cup of coffee. You could buy one, you could buy two, you could buy 10, it's completely up to you. But what it does by supporting the podcast through the reviews and through buying me a cup of coffee or even becoming a Patreon subscriber, it means that I can keep the podcast going because, I'll be honest, it takes a lot of work. But even though it takes a lot of work and hard work, I enjoy it. So thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:37

Now let's get on with the show. Today I'm in conversation with New York Times and Sunday Times bestselling author Linwood Barkley, whose new novel Whistle, as I said, is out today, and in our conversation we talk about the right time for success, the anxiety of writing and the best advice for writers. The only reason why I'm laughing is because the advice is so not what you think. It's so not what you think, but it's funny. So, as I always say, sit, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation.

Speaker 1: 3:09

Linwood barkley, welcome to the conversation thank you, uh, it's a pleasure to be here with you right I?

Speaker 2: 3:16

it might be a bit of a deep question, but if I was to ask you who is linwood barkley, how would you describe yourself?

Speaker 1: 3:29

I'm just some guy who writes books and lives in Canada. How do you describe yourself without sounding either completely self-deprecating or foolish? I'm a guy who always wanted to write. I spent 30 years working in newspapers before my career in writing. I mean, all I wanted to do when I was a kid, in my teens, was write novels.

Speaker 1: 3:55

And somehow, you know, when you're at the age of 22 and come out of university and think you're a genius, you send your books out to various publishers to read because you just know you're going to be a bestselling author overnight. And you start getting all these things back in the mail that they didn't, for some strange reason, didn't want them. You know, and I used to say that I could take a manuscript and of course, back then you know you printed it out. I could take a manuscript and take it to the post office and mail it off to some big publisher in New York and it was back before I got home, like they were already there. You know, it's just, we don't want this. I always liked. They always used to say the rejection slips would often say this does not suit our current needs, which seemed to suggest when we need a really badly written book. We'll be in touch.

Speaker 2: 4:50

But I always feel that you kind of need that bravery, especially when you're in your 20s.

Speaker 1: 4:56

Yeah, you know. So that's why I went into newspapers. I thought, well, where can you get paid money to write every day? And so that's where I ended up.

Speaker 2: 5:06

I was going to ask you. So how do you keep going though? Because you know now we always talk about rejection a lot on the podcast, and it's how do you keep motivating when you are getting those? Because I remember always say I sent off a manuscript when I had no business sending it off and it kept coming back in the same um, because you have to do a self-addressed envelope, so I'd see my handwriting on the envelope and be like, oh, they sent it back.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Yeah, I mean, and of course, I had a lot of that kind of rejection in my early 20s, probably going up to 25 or so and in fact I had one wonderful rejection letter that was a page and a half long. And in fact I had one wonderful rejection letter that was a page and a half long, single spaced, from an editor in Canada who years later ended up becoming not only John Irving's editor but his wife, and I ran into her at a party in Toronto because they live in Toronto not too long ago and I said I still save this letter.

Speaker 1: 6:10

It's the nicest rejection letter I ever got.

Speaker 2: 6:12

Because it was like there's a lot here.

Speaker 1: 6:13

That's good, but it's not for us. And I said all these years later I think I got that letter in 1981. So I said so 40 some years later. Thank you, I said you know it was a a lovely letter.

Speaker 2: 6:24

Did you ever know what they meant when they said this isn't for us like? Did anyone ever go that one step further and explain?

Speaker 1: 6:32

oh well, they didn't usually, and I don't, and you know, all these years later, I kind of understand why. I mean publishers. They're not. They're not writing coaches.

Speaker 2: 6:43

You know what I?

Speaker 1: 6:44

mean Like we either want this or we don't, and if we don't, you can have it back and we're not going to bother to explain why, because that's not our job and and so I look back and I just think, I just wasn't, I wasn't good enough, you know, and and and uh, it took a while to get to that point yeah, did you recognize when you were good?

Speaker 2: 7:11

could you see it?

Speaker 1: 7:13

well, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 7:15

That's a tough question because I think we're as an author, you're always your worst critic I mean the biggest success I ever had was a novel called no Time for Goodbye, which was a Richard and Judy pick. It was the number. It was the top selling novel of the year in the UK in 2008. And the day after I finished writing that, I printed it out and I sat down and I read it from beginning to end and I thought, god, what a pile of junk this is. You know, so we really are not the best judge of what our stuff is, because the flip side is, there are plenty of people out there who look at their own stuff and think, my God, I'm a genius.

Speaker 1: 7:56

And then anybody else reads it and thinks no, you're not, so I don't know. So I don't know. I mean, you know, I didn't have my first novel that had come out until 2004. And it took an agent to recognize that there was something good in it you know, I had some other books published before that in Canada.

Speaker 1: 8:21

There were some humor books and some political satire, but the 2004 was the first novel and, like I said, you sometimes need another set of eyes to look at something and assess it and see whether there's something there or not yeah, you can't see it.

Speaker 2: 8:36

No matter how many times and I think because you you've gone over this piece of work so many times, when you've done your draft and then done the rewrites and the edits, whatever someone else sees you just can't see it you can't.

Speaker 1: 8:49

I think you can't just see what's not working.

Speaker 1: 8:53

You don't even see what is working like people will say, oh my god, that chapter or that part was so great. And I'm thinking, oh, okay, you know, I'll take that, you know you. Just, I mean a lot. A lot of people will say I won't say which book it is, but people will say, you know, there's such this one of these books, this book that you wrote, that's my favorite of all of your books. And I'm thinking I don't even like that book. Like, should I argue with them? Would it be rude to tell them they're wrong? You know just.

Speaker 2: 9:24

I just did it. It's where I felt that way with my book, the jigsaw man and one of the killers in there, um, peter Olivier. I always said I just, he was just a device when I put him in the book, just to keep the, just to keep the plot moving. I didn't plan for him to be a central character in any way. And then my agent and my editor, they'd come back and say, oh no, we like him, we want more of him. I'm thinking why I can't see why you want more of him I know that's and that's and that's.

Speaker 1: 9:54

You know, one of the great things about having good editors and good agents is that they can spot things that you've missed they can identify, they can.

Speaker 1: 10:05

This is more when there's a problem Like I've had editors who identified a problem in one of my books and they didn't have a solution, they didn't know, they didn't know how to fix it. I mean the editor said, look, I don't think this is working and I don't know how to tell you to fix it. That's basically, that's your problem, and so then I have to take a look at it. Okay, maybe they're right, maybe this is not working, but I'm the best one to try to find a solution.

Speaker 1: 10:35

And so remember, in one of those, in one of the books, the editor I was working with at the time great guy in London, and he said I don't think this works, but what if the ending was this? And I said that's stupid. I said that's a really dumb ending. But what if we did this? And he said, yeah, that works. So sometimes a really good editor can pinpoint a problem and get you thinking about how to fix it, even if they don't have the solution.

Speaker 2: 11:08

Yeah, no, I think that's 100% true, but sometimes do you ever have to like battle with your ego, though? Because I felt that with my last book, like I had this scene, I felt like I was married to this scene and I didn't want to let it go.

Speaker 1: 11:22

Authors. Generally, we're these terribly fragile, pitiful people. You know that we're destroyed by criticism and you know we get puffed up by this and then it just doesn't take much to bring us down. So I've been up and I've been all up and down and up and down. I'm done, I'm not doing this anymore, I've had it. And my wife will say, should the sir listen? And you know she knows if you wait a couple days and I'll get, I'm done, I'm not doing this anymore, I've had it. And my wife will say so, just sort of listen. And you know she knows if you wait a couple of days and I'll get over it.

Speaker 2: 11:50

We'll move on. Linwood, I've been asking this question a lot recently. I think you know you can, you can. You can be a good writer, like it could just be a natural, innate talent. But when did you recognize that you were a storyteller?

Speaker 1: 12:05

but when did you recognize that you were a storyteller? Well, I don't think at any point I sort of consciously, sort of recognized that oh la-di-da, you know. But I mean, I was writing. I started writing when I was like 11 or so. I was somewhere 11 years old and and I was writing, uh, what we would today call fan fiction.

Speaker 2: 12:27

Yeah, I had.

Speaker 1: 12:29

I had favorite television shows from the sixties this is well before your time and and I you know, an episode a week of this particular show wasn't enough for me, so I had to write my own stories using characters created by somebody else. And so when I was in like grade, in the sixth grade, I got my dad to teach me how to type because handwriting took too long, and so so by the time I was 12, I was writing 35, 40 page novellas based on my favorite show, and so I was doing that all through my teens, you know, and as I got older I would write.

Speaker 1: 13:09

I was writing, you know, columbo fan fiction and and stuff like that. So so I guess, I guess I had some sense that I was a storyteller, because I kept doing you know.

Speaker 1: 13:23

you know, so I guess I guess that's the case that I was a storyteller because I kept doing it. You know, so I guess that's the case. And I mean, I always had stories going on in my head. We had a. My parents had at one point bought this cottage, resort, trailer park, like a caravan park, you call it and we had this huge property like acres of property. So I had this riding lawnmower tractor and I was like 12 years old, 13 years old, cutting all these acres of grass, and the whole time that I sat on there I was making up stories in my head. I probably should get another lawn tractor just when I get stuck on something. I have a yard that's roughly the size of two automobiles, so I don't think that a lawn tractor is the answer but did you know you know?

Speaker 2: 14:14

so you're doing your fan fiction as this kid of your favorite shows and your dad teaches you how to write. This might sound like a weird question, but did you know at that age that this could be a career for you?

Speaker 1: 14:26

because I always think yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:29

I knew this. What I wanted to do I mean when I was, I guess, when I was in my middle teens, 14 to 17, all through there what I really wanted to be was a guy who wrote tv scripts. I wanted to write you, you know, weekly episodes of television. I thought that would be just great, and so that was the kind of writing I was curious about. But I mean, I was. Also I was writing novels in my late teens, early 20s. So I mean, my hero was a writer named Ross McDonald who wrote the Lou Archer series of mystery novels, and there were a couple of them made into movies and he was very successful US crime writer and I wanted to be him.

Speaker 1: 15:13

I wanted to be Ross McDonald, who wrote one. You know, one meaty novel a year, you know, put it out there. That's what I. That was my dream in my teens.

Speaker 2: 15:25

And then what happened?

Speaker 1: 15:28

It didn't happen. I had to wait a while. So you know, like I said, and that's why I had this, this detour into newspapers, now I was when I was hired. I was hired at the Toronto Star in 1981, which is the largest circulation paper in Canada.

Speaker 1: 15:49

I had been a reporter at a couple of other papers for four years and when I got there I said I applied for a reporting job and they said, well, we don't have any reporters. What we're desperate for are really good copy editors. Do you have a lot of editing experience? And I said, sure, yeah, really good copy editors, do you have a lot of editing experience? And I said, uh, sure, yeah, you know it was a lot. And so I spent the next 12 years, uh, in various editing positions copy editor, assistant, cd editor, news editor, all these sort of editing jobs running a department, so forth. And it wasn't, and so, but it was 12 years later when there was an opportunity to do a column and I applied and got it. And so I spent the next 14 years writing three columns a week for the paper. And I think once I got back into that kind of a routine of writing three columns a week now it was kind of like that machinery is now getting oiled all the time.

Speaker 2: 16:45

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:46

And it was. It was during my my stint as a newspaper columnist that I wrote. I wrote my first five novels while I was still writing three columns a week, and it was the fifth book, no Time for Goodbye. That hit it big and that's when I left. I left newspapers.

Speaker 2: 17:10

How do you always like one or no like? How do you keep yourself going? Because you know that moment when you're still doing the day job and you're writing you've written these five books, but it hasn't hit like stratospheric levels yet it's like how do you keep yourself going through those times?

Speaker 1: 17:23

well, I maybe because I had, you know, the first four books that I wrote. They were sort of comic throwers and they weren't big, they weren't big hits. But I think maybe I would have had to have written more than four to become completely discouraged. You know, as I wrote the first four and they didn't do great but I still wanted to be doing that.

Speaker 1: 17:44

You know, book a year thing and it was, and it was book five that went supernova. So I you know I it's hard to say if the next, if the next four books had also been not terribly successful, I might have just decided. You know what I'm not, I'm done, um, but I got know a lightning struck with the fifth one. But you know, I don't know what it is about writing. I mean, you just keep trying, even when you've had success, and you think, well, I don't have to write anymore, I've got money in the bank, I can just stop.

Speaker 1: 18:21

But there's always like, yeah, but if I could write just one more book, maybe it'll be perfect. It'll be the one where I get I just because every book that you do, you look at it and think yeah, it's okay, but I this part wasn't great or I could have done better there. Yeah, I was trying to write that book. That will be just the one. You know what I mean? It's just perfect and it's. It's a, it's elusive, that goal.

Speaker 2: 18:44

Yeah, it will never. It will be something you're continuously chasing, that art of perfection.

Speaker 1: 18:50

It'll never happen. I had a friend, I had a good friend who was an illustrator and writer for the New Yorker magazine in the US, and he was a great illustrator and he said he never had a drawing that was as good on paper as it was in his head. I get that. It's like I've never had a book that was as good in print as it kind of was in my head. It's that transferring and getting it out there it's like it's hard.

Speaker 2: 19:21

How do you battle through that? Because I suppose it's. I don't know if it's like the opposite of imposter syndrome or just another side to it I don't know.

Speaker 1: 19:32

That's a good question. I that imposter syndrome is.

Speaker 1: 19:35

I think is is interesting, you know um I, you know, I read, I read all these other writers who I just, I just know are way better than I am. You know, I read them. I often people say, well, what do you read? I say, well, I like to read people who are better than I am, and that gives me lots of choice. And I read them and I think, man, this is so much better. And so we're always, like I say, we're always our worst critics, we're always just trying to get it, make it perfect, and that's very it's hard.

Speaker 2: 20:07

it's hard to get it, it's hard to satisfy yourself, because you all you can see are the flaws but do you feel like you kind of need that, though, so you are constantly striving to write the next book and write a better book, not?

Speaker 1: 20:21

having that sense of satisfaction oh yeah, I think that there's a real problem, probably if you write something and think my god, that's so brilliant, it's perfect.

Speaker 1: 20:31

I don't even, I don't even need an editor to look at it because it's just so perfect. And you know, I've heard of, I'm aware of some successful writers who don't want so much as a comma changed in their book. It's because they just it's perfect. And I think, okay, but you're probably missing an opportunity to make your book better, because that's what everybody wants. You want it to be the best book it can be. And I mean I hate getting editing notes back from my editors Because I look and I'm like, oh, oh God, they think this is wrong. And then I read through all the notes and I go and then I get really angry because I look at the notes and I realize they're right. That's the really hard part.

Speaker 2: 21:14

It's irritating, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 21:17

It's really. It's so annoying when you find out that they're right, but then you get back into it, try to polish it up, and I mean, every time I go back I can always always find something else to fix and make better I have this whole routine with my editing notes.

Speaker 2: 21:33

They, the email, comes from my editor and I. I always reply to the email thank you so much, like I'll get back to you. And then I don't actually open the editing notes for like a week because it's like I need to psych myself up for it. And then, after the week, then I'll read it and I'll do the whole thing like oh, oh, actually it's not that bad.

Speaker 1: 21:52

And then I like it's like Schrodinger's editing notes. It's like Schrodinger's cat. You know, until you open the box, is the cat alive or is the cat? And if you don't open the file on the notes, it's like is the book okay or is the cat dead? And if you don't open the file on the notes, it's like is the book okay or is the book a mess? And as long as you don't know for sure, you can kind of just carry on. But at some point you have to open it up. Like I'm expecting notes on next year's books fairly soon and I don't even think I have time to deal with them until July. So I'd be smart not to open it to them. But I won't be able to stop myself. I'll have to open it up and go.

Speaker 2: 22:29

Well, you know, it just doesn't you have to kind of work yourself, go through the process.

Speaker 1: 22:35

I know it's like some kind of. It's like a ticking time bomb or something you know that's exactly what it is.

Speaker 2: 22:41

That's why, even though I leave it for a week, but I'm aware of it, I'm aware of it sitting there in my inbox, I'm aware of it ticking away and at some point I'm going to have to open it. I'm going to have to go through it and then move on to the next step.

Speaker 1: 22:54

I think that the period between you know I say what's the hardest part about writing and I think the hardest part is that period of time between when you deliver the book and you're waiting for the notes. That's like waiting to get test results back from the doctor. Yeah, and you know I said, am I gonna, am I gonna live, or have I got like three months left? I don't know.

Speaker 2: 23:19

I think it doesn't get easier. No matter how many books you write, that moment of you think you're you're prepared for it. You can handle it, but that waiting time, it doesn't get any easier no, although I found what was even worse.

Speaker 1: 23:32

I have, over over the years I have, I would say, I've dipped my toe into this whole business of screenwriting and working with producers and so forth on adaptations of my work, and I've spent many, countless hours on that with little to show for it, because you spend all this time and then it doesn't get made.

Speaker 1: 23:54

But nothing's worse than getting notes that aren't just from one editor but from their, from like a committee and all these people have something to say about it and and they and they don't even line up because the same set of notes you've got stuff that contradicts what the other one's talking about, and it's just sort of like you know what. I should just throw all this away and just go back into it.

Speaker 2: 24:20

I can't remember who asked me. Someone asked me, I think I've been interviewed for something and they asked me about, you know, books being optioned and I said the thing about books being optioned in development is that at one point there's a lot of noise, loads of people are talking at you and you're in conversations with screenwriters and potential directors and all of this, and then it can just go quiet because it doesn't go any further, it doesn't get greenlit.

Speaker 1: 24:48

No, I compare options to having reserving a book at the library that you never pick up. You know this book is mine. I reserve this book, but I don't know if I'm going to actually come to the library. I just want to reserve it?

Speaker 2: 25:06

Yeah, for three, four years. Yeah, maybe five or longer, that's right. Or for longer, linwood, you know, with your success, do you know you're talking about having your career in newspapers, you're having a long career in newspapers. Are you glad that it happened when it happened or do you think you wouldn't have been ready for it if it happened?

Speaker 1: 25:29

if you'd got the success when you were in your 20s, when you did finish college, I'd have been I would have been absolutely fine with it happening sooner, but I think things kind of happened the way they're supposed to happen. I mean, I think that I needed the first of all. I think that working at a newspaper is like getting an education in everything, because you're you're every day, you're working on different stories, you're editing different stories, and so it's a kind of you're just kind different stories, you're editing different stories, so it's a kind of you're just kind of dropped into the world. So that is a great kind of immersion for a writer to just have spent Like look at Michael Connelly, who spent all those years as a crime reporter, so that's really good.

Speaker 1: 26:11

And then doing the column, three columns a week for 14 years, that kind of, as I said, that kind of was doing your training. And so I think that when I finally had some success writing, that's when I was ready for it, because I'd gotten good at it by then, and so I don't have any kind of real misgivings about the way things went. I mean, it would have been awesome to have, by the age of 30, be, a best-selling writer, but it just didn't work that way for me. I mean, I would much rather have become, you know, a published novelist at 49 than not have become one at all.

Speaker 2: 26:53

Yeah, I always think, like my 20 years in law, you know, being a criminal defense lawyer none of that, none of that is wasted, none of it. It's all I mean, it's all material, that's all material and it's just like.

Speaker 1: 27:06

It's like when they talk about doing research like you don't have, you don't really have to do that much research because it's all there, like you've got it, yeah, and so you just write about what you know. So when I you know if I happen to write, a couple of my books have involved, uh, guys working in newspapers. So I mean, I know that environment, I know that, you know I spent. I spent 30 years working in newspapers and I never once heard anybody use the word scoop.

Speaker 1: 27:33

So so when I am watching, if I'm watching some movie about a newspaper and a guy runs and says we've got a big scoop, I'm thinking, oh nobody says that you have no idea.

Speaker 2: 27:46

Nobody says that, they just say that in movies and so that kind of when you've lived in that environment, whether it's newspapers or whether it's law, there's just a lot of stuff that you know and that's helpful yeah, I always feel this way about, um, whenever I'm watching programs and it's a court scene, and it's a UK court scene, because we don't say objection and we don't move around the courtroom. So whenever I hear someone, I'm like objection. I was watching, I can't remember what shape it was, and the lawyer said objection. I was like no, no, no, no, like didn't you speak to a consultant? Like you know nothing. This is not right.

Speaker 1: 28:24

Yeah, I know, I remember I watched. There's a newspaper movie that Ron Howard made with Michael Keaton in it called the Paper.

Speaker 1: 28:33

I think, it was the Paper. Yeah, I called the Paper, I think it was. Yeah, I just hated that movie because Michael Keaton, as the editor, keeps delaying the press, is going to putting the paper to press because he's waiting for this one last bit of information so they can put this story into the paper. And I'm thinking that can't happen, because if you delay the press run, then the papers don't get on the truck in time and then the truck doesn't get to the newspaper boxes in time and it means that in the morning when people go or getting on the tube to go to work, there won't be a paper there, you know. And so I just like I remember one of the best things I ever had said to me.

Speaker 1: 29:18

I was working on a big story one night as an editor. It was going into the morning edition, which closes at 1.30 am, and it's 1.30 in the morning and I'm in the newsroom and we're putting this story together and I think we closed. We got the story off our screens into the press room at 1.32. So we were two minutes late.

Speaker 2: 29:39

Wow.

Speaker 1: 29:40

And the next night this editor came over, the head honcho guy came over to me. He said you did a great job last night, but you can't be late. He said a newspaper with a completely blank front page will sell more copies than a newspaper that's not there, because someone's going to buy it for the horoscope or the crossword puzzle. But so I always remember that that a newspaper that's got a blank front page will sell more copies than one that's not there.

Speaker 2: 30:13

And that stuck with me. It's like someone will buy it, but I'm in like my parents, buying the, the newspapers, and even at a young age, like they know, I'm going to read the cartoons.

Speaker 1: 30:23

So you're right, so it's going to be something there somebody's going to buy that paper because they've got a parent and they've got a paper in the bottom of the cage, you know you need to line the cat litter tray. We're a multi-purpose product.

Speaker 2: 30:45

You know, when you look at publishing, when you look back at your, I feel like I'm doing. This is your life, but we're not doing. This is your life, but when you look at your publishing career, is there anything that you think that's like changed for the better? When you look at where we are now in publishing in comparison to when you started?

Speaker 1: 31:02

are you talking about? You're talking about newspapers, or or books? No, books, they're talking about books.

Speaker 1: 31:09

I don't, I don't know, I don't. I don't think things are better. I think that in the past that a starting author, that publishers would nurture an author and move them along and they would let them go through three or four books that didn't do hugely well but they saw potential by book six, this guy's going to be really good. Now I think everybody wants an instant bestseller and they also want the author. Imagine if they'd gone back to. You know if I'm trying to think of it.

Speaker 1: 31:46

You know what if they said to PG Wodehouse we need you to go on TikTok and we need you to go on the. We need you to go on X and we need you to do all this stuff and we need you to go on X. We need you to do all this stuff. We need you to do all this self-promotion yourself because we're busy and you know you've got to. So I think that's harder. I think authors today there's much more pressure on them to do all these other things themselves that in the past used to be the responsibility of publishers and like I say everybody's looking for the next big shiny thing.

Speaker 1: 32:22

It's going to be a big hit, whether it's vampires, or whether it's da vinci code, clone books, or whether it's the girl on the train, who's on a boat, who fell off a plane, like that. And you know, there's always like, oh look, this is really big now, so let's do who's the next freedom, mcfadden or whatever, like we gotta do.

Speaker 1: 32:42

So everybody's chasing what's going to be a success, and so I think I don't think things are necessarily better than they were like how many you know, like even just physical books, how many outlets that used to sell books don't anymore, they stopped selling them, and so and I also feel like our biggest competition as an author- isn't other authors.

Speaker 1: 33:13

It's now. Oh, there's a new series that dropped on netflix and we can get all eight episodes now and we can binge watch them all, which means that over the next two or three nights, all we're going to do is watch this show that just dropped on netflix, and this used to be a period of time in the evening when you might have read a book, and now, now you don't yeah, and also I mean the thing with the binging.

Speaker 2: 33:38

You know, just dropping 12 episodes all in one go, you know you lose that space of time of you, don't? You lose the anticipation. Yeah, so you know, when we just have shows weekly, and then you'd, obviously you'd fill the space between the next episode the following week and I mean, I think authors, we ourselves are, you know, to blank us.

Speaker 1: 33:56

I remember being at a writer's conference a couple years, a few years ago, and we were all talking about oh, are you watching this? Are you watching this show? Are you binge watching this show? Someone said not one of us has said to the other person have you read this book? You know? Wow, yeah. So I guess the hope now is that those of us who write books, at least maybe they'll get adapted into a Netflix show, of course.

Speaker 2: 34:24

So then at least people will become aware of what you did but you know, what I've noticed, um and I said this to someone a few weeks ago on the podcast is that I've noticed, of a few books that I've read recently, it felt as though they were written to be adapted as opposed to just being books.

Speaker 1: 34:44

I don't know, I mean, that's possible, but I mean I I've had people say to me that they feel that my books read as if they were like cinematic or whatever and I't that's not a deliberate thing, but it is. I think I was probably, I think I'm probably influenced more by television than anything else that I watched as a kid. Yeah, you know, to me, to me, chapter breaks are commercial break, you know.

Speaker 2: 35:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:09

And, and you, and if you have something that's sort of a climactic, pivotal moment, you don't put it in the middle of a chapter. You put it in the middle of a chapter, you put it at the end of a chapter, and then you have this sort of interesting thing which I call white space between the end of this chapter and the next one, and that's your commercial break. That's where you go, whoa, you know, you take a moment to sort of digest what's happened, and then you're under the bathroom, and then you get some potato chips and you come back, and, and, but so I I do think that I'm influenced by it, but it's not a conscious decision.

Speaker 2: 35:44

Yeah, you know, when you're starting a new book do you start with? Do you see a scene first or is it a character Like how is it? Yeah, how was it born for?

Speaker 1: 35:54

you. Books for me always start with a what if kind of. What if this happened? And then if I can figure out what set of circumstances brought us to that moment of the what if, and I can figure that out, then I think I've got a book. Yeah, so it doesn't start with a character.

Speaker 2: 36:17

I think I've got a book.

Speaker 1: 36:18

So it doesn't start with a character, it doesn't start with a place. It always starts with a what if, like we had no time for goodbye. What if a girl woke up one morning and the entire family was gone and 25 years went by and she didn't know what happened? I always want that kind of what if at the beginning.

Speaker 2: 36:35

Yeah, I always feel that you, you constantly, you should be constantly asking questions or putting questions to your reader as as you're working your way through yeah and and yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:47

Giving them puzzles and giving them and misdirecting them. I love doing that. It's just kind of like you'd get the reader to look over here because you're doing something over there, and that's fun.

Speaker 2: 37:01

Do you plan that?

Speaker 1: 37:02

Pardon.

Speaker 2: 37:03

Do you plan that Like those twists and those misdirections?

Speaker 1: 37:08

Or it just happens organically. It just develops as I'm going along. I just sort of think I know what the story is and I know what's happening. Sort of think I know what the story is and I know what's happening, so I'm in a position to create those diversions to those things that you can look somewhere else. While I know that I'm still going over here and I don't know. It's hard for me to articulate how I do it. It just kind of develops.

Speaker 1: 37:35

I just I always feel like like every, every chapter needs to have if I can end every chapter with just a little tiny little bit of a twist or something that makes you want to carry on yeah, someone, um, I think it might have been.

Speaker 2: 37:50

I was on the panel and they asked me if I planned the twist and I was like no, I don't. I don't know if I it's like chess, you know, trying to think three or four or five moves ahead. It's like I know what I want to happen, and sometimes a twist may happen when I'm as I'm writing and twists are sometimes not as big a twist as what they may appear to be to the writer.

Speaker 1: 38:12

It's because it's just, it's how you decide to reveal information, because you know, you know the story, you know it's, you know it's happening and it's just, it's how you decide to reveal information, because you know, you know the story, you know it's, you know it's happening and it's just how. And it's a sense of timing too, like I think twists that are like again, like I said before, I think twists that are delivered in the middle of a chapter lose their impact. If you're going to do a twist, you do it at the end of the chapter, so, so, so someone can appreciate that something just happened here and um, but it's, I don't know, it's I. I guess when I'm writing I try to think what can I, how, what can I do here? That's not what you expect. Like, what's the most logical way to end this chapter? And is there a way? I cannot do that?

Speaker 2: 38:59

listeners. It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. I am. I have this question and I haven't asked it for ages, but is there a piece of advice that you'd wish you'd been told earlier in your career?

Speaker 1: 39:30

I, you know, I just not sure. I mean, I some nice, I had some good advice, very early even when I was in my 20s, I mean.

Speaker 1: 39:41

I became friends I had a long correspondence with Ross McDonald when I was in my late teens, early 20s. There was a very highly regarded, well-known Canadian writer named Margaret Lawrence. Before there was Margaret Adler, there was Margaret Lawrence. She was a good friend, she had, you know, good advice and so forth. And I don't think it's so much a case of advice, unless I guess the number one thing would be be patient, because it's, you know, all good things come to those who wait. It's just that it could take a while. Yeah, and that was certainly true in my case. You know you're gonna have to be patient and you have to persevere and you have to. You know, I would say to writers you have to read an awful lot if you can't be a writer, if you're not a reader, and when your mum tells you what you wrote is brilliant, don't believe her.

Speaker 2: 40:39

I said that yesterday in a sub stack. I'm like you need to have someone other than your relatives in your early work.

Speaker 1: 40:48

If you give this to your spouse or your mother and they tell you it's brilliant, just say thank you, just say well, thanks for that, and then carry on. What else can they tell you? You know what are they going to say but perseverance, it's, it's so, it's so key.

Speaker 2: 41:05

And I just and I always say, especially like to new writers when you finish a book, you finished your first book and there's this adrenaline rush, you're like I just want someone to read it because, like you're saying in the beginning, you think it's brilliant, you think there's nothing wrong. Rush, you're like I just want someone to read it Cause, like you're saying in the beginning, you think it's brilliant, you think there's nothing wrong with this book. And it's going to an agent is going to sign you, you're going to get a big publishing deal and you're going to be everywhere and I'm like no, that book is not ready.

Speaker 1: 41:30

That first draft is just for you. I know it's it's it's very humbling. It's a very humbling kind of profession, you know, and it doesn't matter how successful you are, there will always be something that will bring you back down to earth. I went into this just a couple years ago and I've been doing very well. I'm on the bestseller list and I go into a big store in Canada and it's sort of the equivalent of a Waterstones, and I go into a big store in Canada and it's sort of the equivalent of a Waterstones, yeah, and there's an immense display, a stack of my books right up front and there's a store employee right there and I said, would you like me to sign these?

Speaker 1: 42:14

He said, oh yes, look at how wonderful it is that the author would happen in our bookstore we would love you to sign. We said, oh yes, look at how wonderful it is that the author of what happened in our bookstore we would love you to sign these. This is just great. And she started to pull all the books up and she looked at her watch and she said, oh, I'm on break. And she left and I never saw her again.

Speaker 1: 42:36

Oh, that's going to bruise your ego, oh you know that's, that's welcome, is this welcome to being famous? You know, this is it. This is your moment. This may be exciting for me to meet a big, famous author, but I got a break and I'm not missing it. I am not missing my break for you. I'm going for my tv and my biscuit and you can sit out here and damn self, I don't care, I think they recognize you, though I mean, some authors will walk in and they're like and you are yeah, I know, oh, I've had that too.

Speaker 1: 43:14

I love it when people say would you have? Would you have written? You're a writer, oh, you're a writer, would you have written? I've had that too. I love it when people say would you have? Would you have written? You're a writer, oh, you're a writer, would you have written anything? I've read.

Speaker 2: 43:24

It's the most ridiculous question.

Speaker 1: 43:27

Laura Lipman has a great reply to that. She says I don't know, Are you a famous reader? You know and you know, would you have written anything that I've read? And I'm thinking I don't know, like how would I know that? You know just anyway.

Speaker 2: 43:44

oh, linwood, before I ask you about, um, your new book, ristle, right, what? Why have you moved into supernatural chillers or I don't know what they're calling it now horror thrillers?

Speaker 1: 43:58

I'm sorry. What was the question?

Speaker 2: 43:59

I missed you there I said before I move on to your new book Whistle, I was going to ask you why have you moved into supernatural? What do they call it? Supernatural chillers, horror, thrillers.

Speaker 1: 44:10

Sort of horror, supernatural whistle. I will hold it up for you. You can see it. I just got my first copy.

Speaker 1: 44:16

I've got the proof. Oh, I've got the proof. I've probably got the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I finished it live two days ago and I have my first copy. So I just had this idea, I had this great idea and I really wanted to do it and it was out of my lane. You know it was. It was more horror, supernatural. I thought, well, I'm really excited about this, I want to write it, and, and so that had happened and it was great fun. I mean, I mean, I've always been a fan of, you know, some of this kind of stuff. I mean, I, growing up, I was addicted to the twilight zone and I read ray bradbear and I'm an immense stephen king fan and and, uh, I and I don't read a lot of sort of horror, but this idea sort of fell into that category, and so I thought, well, you know what? And I tell you, I had more fun writing this book than anything else I've done in the last 10 years. I think I just had such a blast writing it.

Speaker 2: 45:16

Did you feel like you had a freedom with it, because it was something new?

Speaker 1: 45:19

Yeah, you know, because when you write a regular thriller that takes place in the real world, it has to make sense, it has to, you know, the puzzle pieces have to fit together. It's like a nice, it's like a Swiss watch. It's got to work, whereas when you're writing and I mean when you're writing horror or supernatural you have just a little more freedom to think I'm going to do something weird here. I don't really have to explain it, you're still working within that genre. You've got to observe certain rules. You can't be too ridiculous, you know this. But you have a little more freedom to do things that you could not do in a conventional thriller, that you would think, well, that just wouldn't happen. Yeah, but in a book like this you can do that. And so it was a little bit liberating and a little freeing when in doing this book, because I could. I could do stuff I can't do in one of my other books but you know what, though?

Speaker 2: 46:12

you know we was talking about politics earlier, before we started recording. But I said to someone I honestly think of the state of the world and all the craziness that's gone on recently, in these last hundred days.

Speaker 1: 46:23

I don't think you should ever think, oh, this idea is too far fetched, because when you look at what's happened, I had pitched that idea for a thriller about a guy with like 30 some felony convictions, including sexual assault, and a complete, complete idiot would become president United States, they'd say, well, I don't make a great satirical book, but it couldn't really happen in. You know, in the real world there's a really great US writer named Calvin Trillin, and he said that one of the perils of writing satire is that it will be overtaken by actual events that attempt to mock and ridicule something aren't as ridiculous as the reality, and that's the world that we're currently in.

Speaker 2: 47:16

Has it made you rethink? Well, not rethink, but just think about your role as a writer, everything that's been happening, especially being Canadian, and all the 51st state nonsense.

Speaker 1: 47:29

I think one of the things that's interesting, if we're getting into the whole political thing, is that America and Hollywood together have always fancied themselves to be these champions of justice and savers of the world and going out there and righting wrongs, and now America doesn't give a damn, it doesn't care about what happens to Ukraine, it doesn't care what happens here. And so how does Hollywood? How do story writers? It doesn't care about what happens to your brain, it doesn't care what happens to your brain. And so how does Hollywood? How do story writers, thriller writers, based in the US, how do they deal with that? Now, because you know, the president is the villain you know in the real world, and I don't think that America, so I's. This is a great time for a huge resurgence of james bond, because we can turn our we can have.

Speaker 1: 48:22

You can have a uk-based hero who will save the world from all of these. You know trumpian uh, interlopers. I don't know something like that yeah, it's, oh it's.

Speaker 2: 48:35

It's a crazy time. I'm just gonna leave it there. It's a it's a crazy time. Before I go on to like your last set of questions, will you like to tell the listeners of the conversation what whistle is about? Then I have two questions to ask you about whistle sure so.

Speaker 1: 48:50

So whistle quickly. First of all, I say that whistle will do forins All you Hornby lovers out there in the UK. Whistle Will Do for Toy Trains what Chucky did for dolls. And it's a story about a woman named Annie Blunt, who is a very successful children's author and illustrator, who has a kind of double tragedy, one related to her work that was deeply tragic, and she's lost her husband and she decides to get out of Manhattan and take her son. They need to just kind of get away from it all and recover from these events. And they go to a small town in upstate New York and rent a house for the summer. And it's in this house where her son finds this box of old toy trains and is delighted about it and sets them all up and and in in the.

Speaker 1: 49:48

After the discovery of these things, very strange, creepy things start to happen. Annie, our illustrator, starts hearing train whistles in the night when she's sleeping, and yet there's no active railway line anywhere near them. And she's now, as she tries to get back into work, she finds herself drawing this hideous, evil character that doesn't know where it's coming from, when in the past she was driving this lovely, cute penguin. That's what her artwork was about. And so all this creepy stuff's happening and it's all tied into something that happened some 25 years ago in a town not too far away. And I mean that that's kind of the overview of this and I thought, why is it possible? We know we've got, remember, the rocking horse winner that you know from a long time ago, that evil sort of little horse that was evil. We've got evil dolls, we've got evil toys. We've got the little wind-up monkey that you know kills people.

Speaker 2: 50:47

Yeah, the simple goals.

Speaker 1: 50:48

Why Can we make toy trains evil and creep you out. Creep you out and the reviews would suggest that you can, that I've somehow, that I have somehow managed to make this everyday sort of household toy uh, a very creepy thing, and and readers will judge. They'll be the ultimate judge, but I had a blast writing it. It it was so much fun and of course I drew on my to some part on my experience as a model train enthusiast nerd who's got a big layup in his basement. So I thought write what you know.

Speaker 2: 51:29

You're living your best life, but I normally have two questions. I ask the guests about their books. But you said you had so much fun with writing your book. Because I normally ask did you face any challenges when writing whistle?

Speaker 1: 51:42

well, uh, yeah, one big one one was. When I started writing it, my intention was that the entire book took place sort of in the present. And as I went along I thought, well, this box of old trains really harkens back to something that happened a long time ago. And I thought, well, am I going to just have people talk about what happened then and explain what the backstory is? And I thought, no, I have to write everything that happened back then. And so it became kind of two stories in one or two novels in one. So the book, large sections of the book, take place more than two decades ago and they were back and forth between the president and that. And that was kind of the sort of turning point when I was writing. It is that I realized I had to do two storylines that would intersect. And once I had that sorted out, once I knew that, then the rest of it was it just flew.

Speaker 2: 52:34

Okay, and the next one is if you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters in Whistle, who would you choose, and why?

Speaker 1: 52:44

So of all the characters in the book if there was anyone, I'd like to hang out with and see her studio and so forth. It would be Annie, Our children's author and illustrator. I mean, I have my father was an illustrator, he was an artist and I like people like that, I mean. I have. My father was an illustrator. He was an artist and I like, I like people like that, I like creative people, I like to see how they do what they do, and and she's a good person, so, yeah, I wouldn't mind spending some time with Annie.

Speaker 2: 53:10

Okay, right, lin-man, this is your last final question to end the conversation. Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

Speaker 1: 53:19

I guess I'm a hybrid. You know, writing is a very isolating profession, so you were kind of, by the nature of their work, you're kind of introverted. You're not playing with others, you know. You're just kind of doing your thing. But I'm happy to go out and do events and go on stage and talk to people, and so I like that as well. So there's kind of a mix. I guess there are times when I think you know to go out and talk to a bunch of people, I feel like I just cannot be bothered, you know but I find that once I get there, I have a good time.

Speaker 2: 53:57

Yeah, you're not the only one. Sometimes you just think I just need to just stay at home, just be on the sofa, just watch tv and just chill. But once you're there, you're fine it's kind of like.

Speaker 1: 54:06

When the pandemic began, I kind of welcomed it. I thought this is great, I don't have to go anywhere, do anything, I don't see anybody. But I would have been fine with that for two months. I didn't need it to go on for like two years no, the two years was a problem.

Speaker 2: 54:22

Okay. So, linwood, what challenge or experience and I say good or bad, so what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 54:30

oh, that's pretty easy. Um, when I was, uh well, my father died when I was 16. And so, and although my dad had been this commercial illustrator, what he did for a living kind of died out, my parents bought this sort of tourist business and I essentially took over running the family business at 16, doing all the work. My mom managed it, but I did all the work and I was there in the room when he passed away. So you know, there's all the stuff that happened.

Speaker 1: 55:03

I was a kid up until 16 and then, at the age of 16, I had all this responsibility and so I didn't have these kind of wild, you know, later teenage years you go out and got drunk and did all this stuff and partying. Because I was responsible for this business, I was to some degree responsible for my much older brother who was suffering with schizophrenia, and so that was a kind of pivotal moment in my life. Was was when he passed away and I was very close to him and and one of the last things he said to me before he, you know, in the last few days before he died, because he had cancer going all through him- and he had losing his mental abilities and he said to me one day he said take care of things, and so I think he knew that it was all going to fall onto me.

Speaker 1: 55:57

How about we add that on a nice downer? Wasn't that just having?

Speaker 2: 56:02

so much fun, and then you end up asking them that's so much fun. Limit, oh God.

Speaker 1: 56:09

That story.

Speaker 2: 56:11

Well, we'll do the next one. If you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 56:18

Well, I think it's what we talked about before Be patient. Yeah, you know, be patient, things take time and and you know, at 25, I was, I was happy, I had a guy, had a cool job and and and wonderful marriage, which I still have, and you know I, and wonderful marriage, which I still have, and you know I, I think it's just things take time.

Speaker 2: 56:41

That would be probably it, okay. So my new one is what is your non-writing tip for writers? And I always say it could be drink water, but not the usual.

Speaker 1: 56:51

I have a really good one, a non-writing tip for writers If you get, reach a level of success where you're going out and doing events and so forth, don't wear canned khakis. Because what happens is, just before you're going to go on stage, you have a glass of water or you go into the men's room thinking I'll just hit the men's room before, and then you turn on the tap. This happened to me. Okay, you turn on the tap and the water comes out so fast that it splashes onto the front of your pants and because you're wearing tan khakis, you have this immense wet blot on the front of your pants. And now you have to go on stage and say you walk on stage and the first thing you have to say is let me explain why. So my big advice for writers is don't wear tan khakis.

Speaker 1: 57:49

I think that's perfect advice you know you won't get any better advice than that from Lee Child or John Grisham or anything like that. Nothing will top the tan, khakis.

Speaker 2: 58:04

I don't think it will. And finally, Linwood Barkley, where can listeners of the conversation find you online? I know you're on Fred's because I see you on Fred's.

Speaker 1: 58:16

Yeah, so I'm still on X x, although I was kind of withdrawing from it. Then I decided to stay on it because it's sort of like pissing in the enemy's tent and I'm on blue sky. I have a facebook page, I'm on instagram, but I can't figure it out. Instagram, I'm there, but it baffles me. My wife's on instagram because she follows stuff that our son is doing.

Speaker 1: 58:37

He's an artist and she'll always pull the phone out and she'll say, oh, look at this. And by the time she gets to me it's gone. Where is it going? I don't understand Instagram Like stuff appears on your screen and then it's gone. I don't get it.

Speaker 2: 58:54

Maybe that's where elephants go to die. Are things I can't Maybe?

Speaker 1: 58:58

Instagram's just not for you. It's just not working. I just have to figure it out I think you're better on threads.

Speaker 2: 59:04

It's just words I'll try.

Speaker 1: 59:06

I'm trying the best I can you're doing your.

Speaker 2: 59:09

You're doing your best, and that just leaves me, linwood bark p, to say thank you very much for being part of the conversation it's been a a pleasure.

Speaker 1: 59:16

I can't wait to see you in London at Capital Crime. I hope that maybe you can ask me then on stage about my top advice for writers. I will, and maybe if the others on the stage are wearing tan khakis, they'll be grateful that I told them that.

Speaker 2: 59:36

We'll see what Andrew Child is wearing, because I see you're going to be on stage with him, so we'll find out. I'm going to crack up. Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.