The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
Finalist -Independent Podcast Awards 2024
*music: the coffee jam ©stereo_jam
The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Rachel Ward: Weathering the Publishing Storm and Finding Your Voice
Rachel Ward never planned to become an author. After 25 years working in local government, she began writing in her mid-30s simply to explore her creativity. Little did she know this casual exploration would lead to an international bestseller and a complete transformation of her life.
During our conversation, Rachel reveals the stunning contrast between her early success with her debut YA novel "Numbers", the brutal realities she later faced in publishing, her pivot into self-publishing and the release of her new novel, the fifth book in her cosy crime series, "The Missing Heirloom Mystery".
Meet Bea Jordan: a checkout girl with a heart of gold and a knack for solving murders.
With the annual Kingsleigh Flower and Produce Show fast approaching and a tomato thief on the loose, Bea and best friend Ant have had little time for each other.
Now a grizzly discovery is waiting for them by the pumpkin patch . . .
The body of Dylan Bradley, their old history teacher. Someone stuck a trowel in his head and left him for dead.
But who would want to hurt Dylan?
When the discovery of a second body throws the townsfolk into full-blown turmoil, Bea must juggle small-town secrets, rivalries and murder with her growing feelings for Ant.
Can Bea dig up the truth before the killer strikes again, or has she finally planted the seed for her own demise?
Is an opinion platform hosted by Marvin “Truth” Davis. My life and career...
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I can imagine a time I would stop chasing the dream. I'm still chasing the dream because I had huge success with Numbers, my first book, which I've never replicated. So I'm still chasing that. Can I get another high, another peak in my career?
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you're enjoying your week, and I know I sound a little bit excitable, but that's because the sun is out, summer is here and I am well. I haven't been given the all clear. If you follow me on social media on Instagram then you will know that a couple of weeks ago I was in hospital for a procedure and I've just been off for the last couple of weeks recovering and, oh my God, I've just been so desperate just to be outside properly. Even though I did go out and see Beyonce, even though I had the all clear from my doctor. I didn't just ignore doctor's advice and go out to Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and watch Beyonce. I had the all clear and I watched Beyonce. She was amazing.
Speaker 2:And that same weekend I saw Mel Robbins with my friend and fellow author, alex Brown. And then I paid for it on Monday because it was a struggle, but I am now back at my desk. I really missed writing. I didn't write a word for about three weeks. So now I'm back at my desk, even though I have to take it slowly. I can't sit here all day and I can't lift anything heavy, which is just weird. Even lifting the kettle's just been weird. But I can go out, I can go for walks and it's nice to feel more like myself again.
Speaker 2:Anyway, let's get on with the show, because today I'm in conversation with author Rachel Ward. She writes crime thrillers, she's written young adult and also non-fiction, and her latest book is book five in the supermarket mystery series and it's called the Missing Heirloom Mystery, and one of the things I loved about this conversation is that it's such an honest discussion about the publishing industry and also discovering your creative spark. And, in addition to that, rachel Ward and I talk about overcoming rejection, the moment that changed everything for Rachel Ward and what happens when your publisher goes bust.
Speaker 2:Now always sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Rachel Ward, welcome to the Conversation.
Speaker 1:Thank, you for having me. Lovely to be here.
Speaker 2:You are welcome. We had little issues before. And you say we, you're being really kind, I'll take, I'll share the technical issues on jointly with you, but you know part and parcel of being a writer today in this modern world. So my first question to you, rachel, is how would you describe your writing journey so far?
Speaker 1:oh, my goodness me. I mean it's been. Everyone talks about a journey, doesn't it? But it's been. Everyone talks about a journey, doesn't it? But it's been a journey because I've actually been doing it for a long time now, and so I have had ups and downs and really high highs and really low lows, and but I've been doing it for checks the day and the year 16 years. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's been a lot what were you hoping for at the beginning?
Speaker 2:you know that break. You know, when you've written your first book, you're sending it out, and then you get picked up by someone. What would, what would you've been happy with at that?
Speaker 1:point. I would have been happy just to be published and at the beginning I didn't know anything at all about publishing.
Speaker 1:I didn't know any other writers, um, I didn't have an agent. I found my first publisher directly, through a local festival actually, and I didn't really have any expectations. And it was all quite late in life. So I was in my 40s and I'd had like sensible jobs up till then and I just thought I would love to be published and I'm just going to try and enjoy it if it happens. I didn't really have any expectations. I suppose. Just to hold your book in your hot little hand, you know, that's the thing, isn't it? We'll see it in a bookshop. But I've come full circle. I would love to see my book in a bookshop now. It's quite rare.
Speaker 2:So what were you doing before? I'd like to ask who were you before you became Rachel Ward? The author.
Speaker 1:Well, I was a.
Speaker 1:I worked in local government, so I did all sorts of different jobs in local government for years 25 years or something.
Speaker 1:Um, my last job was as a sort of town centre manager in a little town between Bristol and Bath called Canesham, and, um, I wasn't called town centre manager, but that's what I was and I organized events and I got help to get a local farmer's market established and I used to run the town's Victorian evening switching on the lights so you'd see me running up and down the high street in a bonnet. But I did sensible things as well. I would facilitate community meetings and conversations about the future of the town and stuff like that. I mean, it was a really interesting job. Bizarrely, after I'd been there for 10 years, I left to write and I'd run the two things in parallel for a while and then the year after I left, the town suddenly took off and there was redevelopment and all sorts of things. So I think I was the person who was like stopping all these wonderful things happening and as soon as I left, um, great things happened to Cansham.
Speaker 2:Do you think you would have still made take? I can't speak. Would you still taken that decision to write or to pursue it if you hadn't left that job? Or was it always something that you was doing anyway?
Speaker 1:no, I it I didn't even think about. I was listening to Tom Hendel's conversation, yeah, this morning, and he said oh, I've always known I could write, it's my been my thing, and, mind you, he's incredibly young, bless him. Um, but I'm, I'm ancient and I haven't always wanted to write. Um, I did geography at university and, um, I didn't even start writing until my mid-30s and just to see what I could do, you know, I don't know, it was just exploring, um, without really thinking it would turn into a thing. It was just something extra, something creative, I think.
Speaker 1:I think the creative part of my brain had been um sort of dormant for a while and I was, without really knowing that's what I was, without really knowing that's what I was doing. I was looking for outlets, yeah. So, yeah, I sort of just wrote. I wrote a radio play that got rejected because it was rubbish. I wrote two books for kids, which were rejected, and then the one that got published was Third Time. Lucky was a YA book called Numbers, which actually was huge and it was amazing, but that was the third book I published, and I did all that while I was still working for the council. So I'd get up and write 45 minutes every day before I woke everybody else up and we all had to get on with our days but how did you know?
Speaker 2:you say, if you, you know, you listen to Tom Hindle and also listen to other writers who have appeared on this podcast. And there will be some who will say you know, they've known since they were a kid that they wanted to write and they've been writing. You know, whatever book they wrote, they've been writing from a young age that's amazing yeah it's amazing, but then I don't think it's.
Speaker 2:I don't think we often hear enough from people who say like they just didn't know and they didn't know it was something could do until they tried. And I just want, I'm just think, I'm wondering what it's like to realize that you have a talent for something, but come to it later, because normally when you're a kid, you know they might say you know, they're very creative, they're this and that they're good at sports. They can recognise that spark in you.
Speaker 1:That's a funny one. I don't think I I don't know when I realised I could do it, or if I've ever realised yet that I can do it.
Speaker 2:A bit late isn't it?
Speaker 1:I think, actually, the first validation of my writing was I sent a short story into a local short story competition with the Froome Festival. And well, one year I sent a story in and it didn't get anywhere, but I got some good feedback and that was the first time I'd had any feedback on my writing and I thought, oh, okay, I'll keep going, which I was going to do anyway. And then the year after I wrote the first chapter of my book Numbers kind, kind of like a short story and I sent it into the same competition and it won the local writer's prize in that competition. And that was the first time I thought, okay, I'm onto something and with the idea and they like my writing style, and yeah, that's a weird thing to happen to you when you're I could can't remember how old I was by then mid-30s or late 30s or something.
Speaker 1:It's. It's just yeah, it's, it's just not. It's nice to do something new and feel things are like opening out um yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it is like I think you know, whatever age you discover something new about yourself and it leads you to develop, let's just say, creative side. You know, no matter what age that happens, it's always an amazing thing to happen. But I think you know, like when you're in your mid-30s you kind of feel that you should be set in everything. You know your career decisions you've made that that should be it. Ever lifestyle choices you made that should be it. So I don't know what it does to you. I say like mentally to realize actually, no, this isn't it like there's more. Some people could be, some people could feel threatened by that and be scared by that realization.
Speaker 1:I think it's a lovely thing that you, you know it's never too late to um, have second chances or try new things. I've actually, like I turned 60 last year and I just feel that I'm in the middle of a period of sort of almost blossoming and learning new stuff. Not about writing, because I wrote my first non-fiction book last year, which was a bit of a revelation that I could do it and I really enjoyed it. But also I paint as well and I've just realised I've got so much to learn about that. I've been painting for 10 years and I've hardly scratched the surface of what I know I can do if I keep going.
Speaker 1:I think there's you know, it's never too late. You're mid-30s. Yeah, you can get stuck in a rut, and I think with my first book, numbers, which is about a girl when she looks in your eyes, she can see your death date. That was written because it was my sort of midlife crisis crisis. I found I was thinking about mortality a lot and you know, I was sort of maybe, if I'm lucky, that would have been like about the middle of my life. But I was looking now, now, down, you know, down the slippery slope towards the end, and I was thinking about mortality and my own mortality and worrying about my nearest and dearest, and that writing it was my response to that. And now I look back and I think, yeah, but in your mid-30s or late 30s, you're so young.
Speaker 2:You know if you're lucky you've got years ahead years ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was on. This is a few years ago now. I was on someone's, I was appearing on someone's podcast and we were talking about that same, that same feeling of you know approaching your feeling of getting to your 40s and then you know your whole journey's been like you're on a roller coaster ride and you've been slowly climbing to the top and you get to the 40s and it's just downhill and really that's not really like the best way to think about your life like it's all downhill from there and it's, it's not so go on.
Speaker 1:Well it's, it's not true. I mean it might be true. It might be true physically, because obviously everybody ages and you're more likely to, you know, get illnesses and whatever the older you get fair enough, yeah, but it's not true mentally at all.
Speaker 1:Um, in fact, I think things really open up for you in your 40s and 50s and 60s, I mean also as women. You know, you're not so prey to the hideousness of your hormones anymore. It's fantastic. You know poor women who are still well, I was going to go into technical detail, but once you get through your menopause which I have, you know it's brilliant. You don't have those ridiculous ups and downs. You don't have. Well, I used to get pmt and anxiety and depression and I was quite horrible.
Speaker 1:You don't get it, it goes and you just have so much more like calmness and space and creativity and it's a wonderful thing. I know people it's you know everybody says all these problems with the menopause etc. Absolutely. But once you get through it, it's fab it's fab. There's nothing to be worried about it's fab. What do you say, worried about it's fab?
Speaker 2:what do you say to people? Because you see all the time people be like oh, you know it's too late for me, you know I've got to such and such age, it's too late to do this career change, to write that book, to move, to move to another country. Now what do you say? Because you know you can tell people, you know it's never too late, there's never, because there's never going to be a right age or perfect age to write that book or paint that piece of art yeah.
Speaker 1:But I mean, the thing is I've been saying, oh, things are wonderful in your 60s and you can blossom and bloom, but also you never know what's around the corner. So, um, we could get, you could get hit by a bus tomorrow. And then the fact that you were I used to think, well, I'll wait until I retire, retire, if you ever do as a writer, I don't know if you do. Yeah, um, I'll wait until I retire before I start painting. It'd be a nice thing to do, um, when I'm older. And then I wait a minute. You're not guaranteed that time, nobody's guaranteed anything. So I sort of stuck myself around the face and said try painting now. So that was like 10 years ago. Do it now, why put it off? Um, so it is never too late until it is too late and then you've missed your chance. So you know it's funny.
Speaker 2:I don't know who, I don't know who said it or what group I was. I was somewhere and um, and it was another writer saying, yeah, when I, I can't wait till I retire. And then I was thinking the same thing. I was like but do you ever really retire as a writer? I mean, I suppose andrew child not andrew child, lee child has, I suppose in a way, because he he's slowly stopped writing the Reacher books and his brother's taking over, but I don't know if he ever truly can retire as a writer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think you can stop trying to get published. You can just say that's it and maybe people just stop writing, perhaps they do. I can imagine a time I would. I would stop, you know, chasing the dream. I'm still chasing the dream because I had huge success with numbers. It's my first book which I've never replicated, so I'm still chasing that. Can I get another high, another peak in my career? Um, I could see replicated, so I'm still chasing that. Can I get another high, another peak in my career? I can see a time when I would stop chasing that and go okay, you know, this is how it's, this is the reality, this is what's happened to me. It's fine, you don't need to keep chasing that anymore.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I would stop writing, but if I stopped writing it just means I would paint more or take photographs more. I wouldn't stop being a creative person. I think, once you're a writer, you have that curiosity, don't you? And you also have that desire to express it. And so I think it comes out some way or other.
Speaker 2:Do you think no, go on well.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say, unless you're massively rich, you can't like. You know all you need in the bank, like certain people, and then you could just stop up and just enjoy the fruits of your labours. But I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think even if I was ridiculously rich like JK Rowling Michael Connelly rich I would I would still write you need to do something.
Speaker 2:I don't think I could just sit at home just wandering around my grounds yeah, ladies and men are wandering around, just yeah, pruning a few roses and yeah no, because because the thing is, just because you gain success and you get the riches and you get the award, and you get the best sellers, you get all the status. It doesn't mean that that creativity that you have within you just suddenly just dries up.
Speaker 1:No, it's still going to be there, I think it's, it'll always be there, and, as a writer, you cultivate that, don't you? You cultivate your curiosity and and you're interested in your, your own brain, and how it works and how you can express those ideas.
Speaker 2:And can you make? It work and I don't think that would go away no, and I think that's going to be even more frustrating. You know, to have all that success and then still to still feel stifled. I think that would be more frustrating than to have a creative outlook but not have whatever your idea of success yeah, yeah, I feel like I really feel that a lot of people are creatively stifled.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think probably it's got easier over the years for people to find outlets for their creativity, but the people that are really slogging away trying to earn a living doing one, two, three jobs kids juggling, caring for kids, caring for parents who literally don't have the time, I think that's so sad to never explore that side of you and explore that potential.
Speaker 2:Do you think if you hadn't had the success of Numbers?
Speaker 1:you know that first that novel doing so well. Do you think you still would have carried on? Definitely yes, because I'm quite bloody minded and quite, um, I don't like being told no, but I also really I didn't realize this about myself for ages, but I really like learning, so I think I would have just kept going. I don't know how long I'd have kept going, for I might still be, still be doing it now, still writing and submitting and hoping, yeah was there?
Speaker 2:yeah, was there a point? You know, because you, because you know, you said you came to it late and you're discovering your creativity late. And then you're just you're not only discovering your creativity late, but it's like you're continuously discovering new sides, different aspects of your creativity. Now I've completely forgotten where my questions was going. Now I had a question for you. Hold on, what was I actually saying? Oh, that was it. So what I was going to ask you is was there ever a point where, like, were you ever uncomfortable with calling yourself a writer? Or was it once you decided this is what I'm doing? I'm completely good with calling myself a writer and telling people I am a writer.
Speaker 1:Completely good with calling myself a writer and telling people I am a writer, I mean I didn't tell, I didn't tell many people until I actually got a publishing deal. It was all a bit not exactly secret, but you know it doesn't really come up in conversation. So, um, and then I think, once I've got a deal, I did feel quite comfortable about saying I'm, yeah, I'm a writer and and also it's. I mean, it's a really nice label to apply to yourself, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's a really, it's a really nice thing to be able to say I'm, I'm a writer, um, and sometimes I say where am I writer? Can I call myself an artist? How good do you have to be until you call yourself an artist? I don't know. It's I mean. It is about, I mean, external validation, isn't it? But I it's actually about the doing, isn't it?
Speaker 2:if you do it, you are one yeah, but, and I was gonna say I mean a man stapled or taped a banana to the wall and sold it for x amount of stupid, a stupid amount of money. I would not call that up, but other people call it up and he would call himself an artist. You know, if a little kid sellotaped a banana to the wall, you'd be like what are you doing? You put sellotape on my wall.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's very similar. I think if you're doing it, you are, you're a writer, and if you're doing it, if you're painting, you're an artist. You are, you're a writer, and if you're doing it, if you're painting, you're an artist. I think it's really nice to grow comfortable with those labels, I mean, I think that's a nice way to identify yourself. How did you manage rejection in the early days? Well, just the normal ways. You know a bit of sulking and then I think it's.
Speaker 1:There's nothing wrong with having a good sulk about it and, you know, shaking an angry fist at the sky and cursing your life, that's fine. But then you have to, you know, get on with the next thing and also you have to take the hint. It's like I had two books children's books rejected that they weren't good enough and eventually I had to realize literally everybody I sent it to has sent it back, and in those days, ages ago, it was all paper and you had to include yourself just-addressed envelope and that used to just plop back through your door.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's another one, but if, if you know, 20 people have rejected it, it's not good enough but you know, there's so many people, yeah, but there's so many people who all they can see is the rejection. And I've had it with people, I've with writers, I've mentored and coached. They get the rejection and they can't look past the rejection and they can't if there is feedback. They can't recognize the feedback or the good points they can take from that feedback, because all they can see is literally like a scarlet letter, the letter are emblazoned on the screen and they can't see past it. And then, but also, they can't see past it, but they don't move on. So they'll just keep on.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, you know, they just keep on hammering away at the same book when it might be. Actually, you know what this book was like. You're. You're like when you're little and you have like your tester bike. You know your little tricycle. It's got the training wheels on it. It's like that first book was your bike with the training wheels and now your next book is going to be the point where we take the training wheels off yeah, that was very much the case with me.
Speaker 1:I learnt by writing. I didn't do any courses or anything, I just learnt by writing and reading. But yeah, you learn by doing it. Yes, I think some people get very stuck, especially if it's their first book and they think it's their precious thing and this is the one, and they can't believe that it won't be.
Speaker 1:It's a hard lesson to learn, isn't it? But yeah, I think. Yeah, any sort of feedback and criticism can be hard to take, but I think in the early days, any feedback at all is just like gold, isn't it, and you have to take it on board. Um, I used to really treasure the nice rejections. If somebody had sent me a just a standard rejection letter, but on the bottom they'd written oh I like the writing style, but so-and-so, I'd go. Oh, you know, that's a real precious thing that someone had bothered to write a sentence to me. So you know, I took it as encouragement.
Speaker 2:The first book I wrote and I was, you know, listening to you, you know, talking about that first book and I'm asking myself know, listening to you, you know, talking about that first book and I'm I'm asking myself what was it about me that made me write that first book, send it out, get all the rejections, but then push it to the side and then move on to the next one? And I don't know what it was, but I don't know why I decided, because I could have just thought I know I'm just going to keep hammering, hammering away at it, but I think maybe, personally for me, I just thought I've written a book, I've written a whole book, I sent it out and also I think at the time, yeah, I was qualifying as a solicitor, so you know I was focused on that. But then I just, I, just I happily left it to the side and worked on whatever, what other things popped into my head whether or not they went anywhere.
Speaker 2:Oh god, no, it's terrible. No, no, you know what I like the thing is, I like it because it was one. It was the first thing I remember writing and I remember writing. I remember sitting in when I was working at the BBC, sitting at my desk, and my friends were sitting next to me and I'll be and we were, and I think, like working in the BBC at with the team I was in, we were all doing other things in addition to that job we were doing. So you know, people.
Speaker 2:You know people wanted to be, you know, more creative in the TV industry, like behind the scenes stuff. There was another person writing poetry, someone doing music, music we were all doing different things and I was writing this, writing these chapters, during my lunch hour and I'll email. I was like email it to my friend Sadesh. I was like Sadesh, what do you think? And it was the first time I'd ever, I think ever written something and given it to someone else to read and you know, tell, just let me know what they think. And he did, and he's like I really liked it. I emailed it to a friend and she's like no, I liked it, and so I just carried on writing this book.
Speaker 1:That's so brave it's so brave to send your work to anybody. Yeah, a bit croaky, I'm going to have a drink, if that's all right. No, it's fine. It's so brave to send your work to anybody, even a friend, or especially a friend. But then also if you send it out to agents or publishers. It's such an act of bravery because you make yourself so vulnerable and you are going to get rejected um, I think you know, hats off to anybody who takes that step, because it is. It is an act of bravery.
Speaker 2:I think it's a big and necessary step to take when being an author, because I think you need to have I don't you know any kind of rejection. You know, hopefully you want little, small ones, not massive earth-shattering my life is over one, but I think the small ones are, they help make you, they shape you as a writer, because then I can look back and you ask me would I, would I do anything? Go back to that first book?
Speaker 1:no, you know, I liked my characters, yeah.
Speaker 2:I knew there was a nice little story there, but I was like point of views all over the place. He didn't even know how to indent anything. It was yeah, it's like, what was this even about? It was just, it was probably more. It was probably more reflective of me being someone, a woman, in my 20s, in the early 2000s. It's probably more reflective of that than the actual story. But I think what it did show me that I could write.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of first books are really personal and they deal with a lot of personal stuff and you're you're getting stuff out there that maybe you have to do as a person, but they might not be, the best thing for you as a writer. So I think a lot of first books, you know, should just be quietly shelved and stuffed in a drawer. But that's how we learn, isn't?
Speaker 2:it. I suppose it's kind of like a purge of the soul, that first book, whatever angst you're going through yeah yeah, yeah. So what did? What surprised you most about the publishing industry? So, once you know the books are out, you've got your series, the YA series. What surprised you most? What wasn't you prepared for?
Speaker 1:um, I wasn't prepared for any of it, really, because I I knew nothing about anything at all and what I should have done is sort out the company of other writers earlier, because I sort of dealt with it all on my own for ages.
Speaker 1:I didn't have an agent. I just I was just dealing with my publisher directly, who's lovely. But, um, you know, I didn't have an agent. I was just dealing with my publisher directly, who's lovely. But you know, I didn't have wise counsel from other writers who'd been through it all. And I'm amazed I survived because I'm quite, in a way, I'm quite a timid soul and I just somehow I did survive. But also I had just such a weird experience because, like, numbers was so successful and I got invited to festivals and and I went to Germany six times and I went to France and Sweden with it, and it was amazing. And you know, I'd open my emails and what have I got shortlisted for? Today? This is nice, nice, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:It was incredible and it hasn't happened since, but I did enjoy it and at the beginning I was juggling work and all of that and school visits as well. And then after a couple of years two things happened. My husband's health dropped off a cliff and then I thought, well, I'm going to try and actually devote more time to this. So I took a sabbatical year, about two or three years in, and then I never went back. So I think my sort of experience of publishing is, I mean, in a way, often your debut gets more attention and fuss and love from publishers and then things go downhill. But mine was like really extreme that it started like amazingly Sorry, I'm croaky, like amazingly sorry and croaky, and then, um, then I just had to deal with the more normal life of a published author, which is, uh, rejections and ghosting and publishers going bust and taking your royalties with them and all of that no yeah, that happened um two or three years ago.
Speaker 1:I had my Cozy Crime series with a small publisher in Scotland and they went bust and took my royalties with them, so that was like a kick in the stomach really.
Speaker 2:Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. See this, this oh, there's so many things that could happen to a writer that no one else would ever consider, because all you're ever seeing, you know, if you're watching from the outside, you're just seeing that nicely packaged rose tinted as a tv movie version of being an author. But there are so many. Your story is not even you know. Sadly, it's not even unique to hear of. Um, you know, writers having to chase their royalties, small publishers just going bust, losing everything and then having to try and get your rights back to your books and like that is not unusual.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's sad, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I would say to any writers if there is any delay in getting your royalties or you hear whispers or anything at all, go after them now, before they try and get your money and I think I think the problem is that, um, I think with with this industry in particular, um and I'm saying it from, yeah, from I think there's this feeling amongst writers that, and I don't think publishers help, I think they kind of encourage this feeling of gratitude, like you have to be grateful, you should be grateful for this position, because there are and the thing is, you know, it's true, there are 500 other people out there who would kill, kill to get the publishing deal and to have their books out on any shelf so that you have that notion of gratitude which is so strong, and because you're made to feel I need to be grateful, that in turn changes into I can't really complain or critique or ask questions yes, yes, there's this whole thing, that, and I am really grateful for all the things, the good things, that have come my way over the last 15 years.
Speaker 1:I'm really grateful, but this attitude that you have to be grateful for the smallest crumbs that a publisher will throw your way is just, oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know there are lots of other people lining up to take your place, absolutely, but that doesn't mean you should be treated badly, yeah, and it doesn't mean that you should expect your book to be given the best chance and not just published and not promoted and not marketed. There are all these things, you know you. At the very least, you should expect people to do their jobs properly it is, though, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's like I could never understand and I will never understand, because I just don't think this would work in any other industry, in respect to creative or non-creative. I will never understand why you would invest in something, invest in a product, so you're paying, whether you pay a 500 quid or half a million quid. Why you pay for something and then make a decision not to promote it or market it in order to get your money back, because that's what you want. You want to make money, so why wouldn't you not invest in it, especially considering you put money into it?
Speaker 1:you paid for it it's so bizarre and it also really plays on or exploits the sort of hopes and dreams of writers as well. I mean, mean you think you get a publishing deal and everybody's going to do their best for it, but if you're a middle list you're going to hardly get any attention at all. And your publisher may give you some attention around publication time but they won't necessarily spend actual money on it.
Speaker 1:Marketing, um no and a lot of books. I don't know why publishers would take on books and almost set them up to fail. It's bizarre, it makes no sense it doesn't make no sense at all.
Speaker 2:You just want to do it and like I'm just saying something random like bmw's not going to make a car and then, just like a brand new car, put everything into it and then just leave it there and not tell anybody about it not tell anyone about it, just expect to park it in the corner of the car park and just hope someone might wander across.
Speaker 2:Yeah, leave it in, it's like leaving it in terminal four. He froze car park. Yeah, right in the corner, where even the bus doesn't go and expect people to find it like they're gonna spend money, promote. You know there'll be an advert, there'll be people, it will be somewhere. It's, yeah, it's you. Just I'm saying no other, no other industry would do that.
Speaker 1:I can't see any other industry doing that no, and then there's also the more recent thing of just sort of common courtesy going by the wayside. So, um, like ghosting and not getting back to you or like if you submit things, the norm is just to not hear and after however many months you have to assume it's a no and it's. I just send a standard reply going thanks for sending it, not for me, thanks. You know it literally would take 15 seconds.
Speaker 2:I know it I no, you're not.
Speaker 2:No, the thing is, you're not, it's just common courtesy, because you would expect that from someone. You would expect that from someone else, yeah, or from anything else. The ghost, the ghosting thing is weird. And I said, you know, the more, the longer you stay in this industry and the more people you talk to and you become friends with, and you, you know, you've got friends at different levels. You've got people who are just starting out or they're starting again. You know they've had the success and then it hasn't worked out and they've had to leave their aid. You know, leave the publishers, leave the agents, and they're literally they're back out on that submission train again and, as I've offered, you know, you know they, they are like they're riding that wave and it's, it's glorious for them.
Speaker 2:There's so many different people you meet in this industry and all these and you, I like to think I'm not. I can't be surprised, but I'm still constantly yeah, I'm always constantly like what do you mean? And then I feel like I feel naive, I'm like I shouldn what do you mean? And then I feel like I feel naive and like I shouldn't be naive because you know, I used to work with people being accused of the worst of the worst. I've sat in rooms with people who have done the worst of the worst, like I shouldn't be naive about the things that happen in this industry, but yet you know ghosting people and I said not having to chase for your royalties or agents, simply saying I don't think you're for me anymore, like that is, yeah, these are stories that you hear.
Speaker 1:You have to be so tough. I mean, we're all lovely, creative, soft-edged people, but you can't be soft-edged in publish, publishing, you have to be tough no, it's hard.
Speaker 2:Nothing is that's a surprise for people. I said then when they cut up, I always say you, you see publishing through these rose-tinted hallmark tv glasses, and then you get into it and you, you know it might. For some people it's a gradual lesson and for other people it's a hard lesson straight away that this is very much a business and you need to recognize where you are, where you sit in this business it's definitely a business writing it.
Speaker 1:Writing is a different thing. Publishing is a business. Yeah, I mean, I think if you can still enjoy the writing, then you're winning. Yeah, um, if you could enjoy the business, that's it. That's crazy, but well done.
Speaker 2:I think you, I think you help yourself and you can make life a little bit easier for yourself if you're, if you can recognise and make the distinction quite early on.
Speaker 1:And also it's very difficult not to take sort of validation from things like sales and advance levels and all that sort of stuff. But you are not your sales Right, and also you are not your book. You pour yourself into your book but you're not your book. So if your book goes out into the world and doesn't do very well, it's not a reflection of you. That's simply what's happened in today's market. You know, in the context of however the publisher dealt with it, that's what happened to that book. In this business you aren't your book you know I think quite difficult to actually live.
Speaker 1:Live that way, it's my mantra. When I'm feeling really miserable I say you are not your book no, but I think it's an impact.
Speaker 2:I think it's an important thing for people to hear, like writers, writers to hear because, like I was saying in the beginning, you can be so committed, too wedded to that first book, and you can't let it go. But you have to let it go. You have to keep pushing forward, and that's with moving on to the next book, to the next project or finding different other areas in which to project your creativity. Try not to take it personal, but also learning that you need to fight your corner as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, you do. And even if you have an agent I've got a really lovely agent at the moment but even with an agent, you still have to be your loudest advocate. Yeah, and you have to fight your own corner and do it nicely, do it politely, but you do have to speak up for yourself. I kind of learned that the hard way, but it's true, you have to look after yourself no, you do, and I mean I think, but some people they can be worried about.
Speaker 2:Oh, if I say what I want, I'm going to people gonna think I'm a, I'm demanding, I'm being a diva and I don't know. There's nothing wrong with you saying this is what I want, is what I expect, and what can you and what can you do for me?
Speaker 1:yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, do it nicely. You don't need to be rude to people but, um, it's fine, it's fine to say you know what you want to see happen, or how can you work together to make this thing happen, or all of that stuff. Um, yeah, firm, but fair, quietly insistent passive, aggressive.
Speaker 2:Um, how did you end up writing your web? How did you end up writing your cozy guide to mystery like how did that even happen?
Speaker 1:well that actually came out of. Um, two things came out of that small publisher sandstone going bust, which was that was my lowest ebb in publishing. Um, it was just the thing happening itself was awful. And then there was all sorts of wranglings about how I, whether I, would be able to get future royalties from the three books they published. There was an argument that they actually all the royalties for the next five years from those books would have to go to the liquidator. Oh, but, but, but anyway, there was a lot of wrangling and as I was dealing with horrible emails and every time I opened my inbox and read another email about this horrible, complicated situation, it would really really drag me down. And, um, anyway, it was all resolved in the end and the my cozy series is published by joffrey now, um, and so I've got five books out with them and hooray, um, and that was all resolved. But that was my absolute lowest ebb. And in the middle of that, um, a very nice lady, lady, um, debbie picken.
Speaker 1:Lady Debbie Pickin, at Retreats for you, invited me to run a cosy crime writing retreat in Devon and I had to do loads of preparation for it and it went really well. But afterwards I thought I've done all this preparation and it was a lot of work what can I do with it? You know I should be able to use that and do more with it. And so I thought, well, I'll turn it into a book and self-publishing. I'm very lucky that I live in the same town, bath, as Joanna Penn, the self-publishing genius, and she kindly had a cup of coffee with me and gave me a pep talk and set me on the path to self-publishing my first nonfiction, write your Cozy Mystery. And it was my way of oh horrible phrase taking back control. Ugh, past the same project, but in personal terms, taking back control from publishing, making my own decisions and doing things for myself. And it was actually really empowering to do it.
Speaker 1:I had no clue how to do it and I'm not, as we've seen from trying to set up this interview, this conversation, I'm not very technologically aware and so, like the thought of self-publishing and, you know, dealing with getting it up on kindle and formatting and stuff, I just but I just thought, I just thought it's doable, people do it and I can learn how to do it, and so I was just very methodical and treated it like a project. And you know, just tick, tick, tick and realize I don't have to do everything all at once, just do one thing at a time. And I had some very nice friends helping me as well, which was amazing. I couldn't have done it without them, but I did it and it really it was my way of healing.
Speaker 1:I think after that really low, low, it was so, so healing to do it and to realise I could do something for myself and tackle something really difficult. I found it really difficult and actually do it and end up with a product I'm happy with and proud of, and it was very interesting to see how self-publishing works and it gives you like an inside track, which is it is really interesting. So that's really where it came from. It was and it was part of my sort of pulling myself up by my bootstraps type thing.
Speaker 2:I always say because I self-published my first book and I will say the easy bit of self-publishing is the actual writing. Everything else after that it's just. You quickly discover what your skill set is and what your skill set is Like. My skill set I can write the book. I have. No, I can write the book. I can draw, but I know I've got no business making cover art. So I will find the cover artist. But editing, finding proofread, and this is all the things that a traditional publisher would do, but and then marketing your book and finding, you know, creating, getting publicity for your book, that is where all of that is work and it takes time and you really have to like, have a plan for that, for that you can't just and I've seen it, like you know, I'll just write the book and stick a cover on it and send it out. There. It's like no, that that is not a plan. Like you need a plan.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, this was a bit of an odd one because I didn't have a marketing plan for it, because I thought that it will sell itself. Yeah, naively, because it's offering a particular thing. So if you're writing a cosy mystery and you search on Amazon how to write a cosy mystery, it will come up and there are about half a dozen other books, you know, and you can take your choice. So I thought you know there's no point spending loads on advertising because it's only a certain percentage of the population who are trying to write a case of mystery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in that respect.
Speaker 2:So I thought I'm just going to let it look after itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because when you Google it you don't get many.
Speaker 1:No, so like all the technical stuff, yeah crikey, that's a lot that goes into a book isn't it?
Speaker 2:What is the number one, or what is the thing that Joanna Penn said to you that like stuck with you in terms of self-publishing?
Speaker 1:She really encouraged me well one to believe it's perfectly possible, you know it's possible, just you know, do it. And also to think big. I mean, I haven't, I've actually thought quite small with this one, but she was thinking think big, think about opportunities. Don't think about just a book. Think about the audio book, which I would quite like to do. Think about offering online training from it. Think about the ways you can make this book work for you and I haven't kind of gone down those routes yet yet, but she's so inspiring about looking for ways you can make it into a business and make it actually work for you. She's pretty amazing actually.
Speaker 1:she is, she is um a powerhouse and she's someone I'd recommend listening to her oh, yes, yeah, yeah and and just you know, she, just I was at a very low ebb when I met her. I mean, she's quite lucky I didn't dissolve in a weeping heap on her shoulder. I was quite close. I think she knew I was quite close and um, she, just she really gave me a pep to walk, which I needed.
Speaker 2:But you've been through a lot that's a lot to go through, you say because you know you talk about having the highs of publishing, having all that success with numbers, and then you know, over the course of 16 years you're at a point when your publisher's gone, bust, you haven't got you or they haven't got your role to and they want to take and in some I'm about to be offensive, some person wants to take your future royalties away from you it's like, yes, and it wasn't even malicious.
Speaker 1:It wasn't malicious, it was just. This is the way contract law works. It's complicated, but this is what has to happen. Okay, I know and I'm saying this as a lawyer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm saying this as a lawyer, and I'm saying this as a lawyer who knows how. You know, I worked in copyright and I know how business law works and I, like, I understand intellectually, I understand that, like you are not in terms of creditors, you're not getting paid first. You're like right on the bottom rung of the ladder. But as a creative person and you know the amount of work you put into your books and the thing that someone else is going to be reaping the profits of it, you're just supposed to sit there and take it. No, yeah sorry.
Speaker 1:The other thing, though, is like it absolutely wasn't personal. It felt so personal. It wasn't, it was just business, it was just law. It was. It wasn't, it was just business, it was just law. It was just, it wasn't personal. But it feels like the you know bottoms dropped out of your world. It's just oh dear me.
Speaker 2:Oh, it does, all right, let's talk about something a little more nicer. Have we been too negative this morning? No, you know what? I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't think, I don't think we've been too negative at all.
Speaker 1:I think it's nice we're still here, we're still going, and I always think it's nice for people to just hear the realities of it yeah, but also I project a very, very, very shiny, happy, happy, nicey-nicey image on social media, like I post a pretty photograph every day on social media. That's my thing, and I don't get involved in politics or controversial things online, and so people probably think I have a very, very shiny, happy, blessed life, which in some ways I do, but not all the time no but then I, yeah, but I think you know, I think the way social media works, we all curate our lives, yeah, to a certain respect, online.
Speaker 2:So it is, you know, like these conversations are good to have people be like okay, yeah, I got a little bit of reality check, I know what to expect and if you know it gives you a little bit, you know, you've got a little bit more to your armor when you go out there, then it's always going to be a good thing. So, rachel, do you want to tell the listeners of the conversation about your latest book, the Missing he heirloom mystery, book five in the supermarket mysteries yeah, the missing heirloom mystery is um, it's.
Speaker 1:It is the latest in my cozy crime series, which is set in and around a supermarket in a small English town which is basically Keynesham, where I worked for 10 years. Um, and this one is about one of my characters digging up a body on the local allotments. The other of my characters is digging up murky secrets in the local council. So it was like a lot of fun to write because I worked in local councils for years, years, so maybe I had to get this out of my system, but I had a lot of fun with it. Um, it is crime, but you know it's, it's at the cozy end of the scale, so it won't give you nightmares.
Speaker 2:Um what's the key? Do you think to a good cozy mystery? Because you know there's so many of them that are like taking charge of the charts right now.
Speaker 1:There are yeah, there are, aren't there?
Speaker 2:but yeah, what do you think is the key to a good cozy mystery?
Speaker 1:the key, I think, is having characters that you care about um and for me, the joy of writing it I do.
Speaker 1:I like the structure that crime gives you. So you have to have your initial crime and then probably another body and then it all gets sorted out at the end. I love that structure, yeah, but within it I love exploring the relationships between my characters, and it's not just my main characters, ant and Bea, it's all the people that they work with. They're a sort of family in the supermarket plus they're real families and what's happening at home. And over a series you can really explore those relationships and they can go all sorts of different ways in. In the latest one, ant to be, who've only been friends up to now, become a little bit closer, which I wasn't expecting. But they they right near the beginning of the book they just hopped into bed and I was thinking, excuse me, I don't think you're doing that in that book six, what's going on? But they just did so I went with it.
Speaker 2:I always think. I like those moments, though, when you are writing and your characters surprise you.
Speaker 1:You're like oh, oh okay yeah, I had no idea.
Speaker 2:I had no idea you was going to do that, but you keep on doing it.
Speaker 1:I mean you can plot and plan all you like, but the best thing is when characters start doing things you don't know they're going to do. They is. Or have funny little conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like those moments, I like them and it kind of makes your life a bit easier, like, oh, okay, you're kind of you're growing now, you've got life, it takes a little bit of pressure off. Yeah, you're growing now. You're like you've got life takes a little bit of pressure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So this is my new question that I like to ask now, in regards to your books, if you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters, whom would you choose and why? Oh, hmm, that's a good question. Yeah, I would actually spend an afternoon with b who is my checkout girl detective?
Speaker 1:because she's I know her so well now. She's like a lot younger than me, she's in her early 20s, but I really really, I just really like her. I'd like to hang out with her. She's really smart and quite funny and I mean she might not even give me the time of day, to be honest, old fogey, but um, if she, if she would give me the time of day, I would like to just, you know, go for a walk with her, sit in the park and feed the ducks and have a good old chat that's nice, okay, right.
Speaker 2:Last set of questions are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:I would like to say I'm a hybrid, but that would be a big old lie. I'm like probably 95% introvert, 95%. I mean I like talking to people and then I like going home and having a bit of peace and quiet.
Speaker 2:Fair enough, I think that's more than fair enough, okay, so what challenge or experience, good or bad, in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:That's actually a really tough question. There's probably two. One was getting my first publishing deal, which completely changed my life. It just did Just that day changed my whole life in a really, really good way. One is my husband's health falling off a cliff. It's not something you ever plan for, or hope for, or think even it will happen to you, but his heart went wrong in 2010.
Speaker 2:And then he had a heart transplant in 2015 and only just scraped through.
Speaker 1:So he was in ICU for five months afterwards and had to learn to had to learn to walk and talk and swallow and breathe and, uh, eventually he came home um, so that was 2015. He came home in 2017, um, and he's still here, but his heart's fine, but his kidneys packed up in 2021 or 22. So he's on dialysis now, oh God.
Speaker 1:So I would say that you know, none of us wanted any of this, but I would say that's completely dominated our lives and um, and yeah, it continues to um and yeah, yeah, definitely it's a serious answer, but it is a very no, but it's.
Speaker 2:You know there's some. I think it also just reinforces that. Sometimes challenges and experiences it's not just a one-off.
Speaker 1:There can just be a continuous thing that you're gonna have to navigate around yes, yes, and it sort of um influences my attitude to every single day that you make the most of every single day and, um, yeah and look always, I always look for little things.
Speaker 1:That's why I take pretty photographs and post them online, actually, because I start every day with something really positive. It's like a meditation almost, yeah, and I think you know if you're always looking for little snapshots of beauty or look for where the light's coming from, all that sort of stuff, it it really helps set up your day, and if you could sort of cultivate that attitude, it really helps I think you're 100, right?
Speaker 2:okay? So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:I was thinking can I remember that far back? I was 25 in 1989 and it was before I had I've got two children. That was before I had kids. I was married but I didn't have kids and I wasn't writing any of that. What I would say now is that you're much stronger than you think you are and you know all sorts of stuff is going to happen. It's okay, you can deal with it.
Speaker 2:You're stronger than you think.
Speaker 1:That's what I'd say to 25-year-old me.
Speaker 2:And oh, I forgot, I have another one. What is your non? I know I've added these new ones on recently and I'm like, oh yeah, I forgot about that.
Speaker 1:Oh, what is?
Speaker 2:your. What is your non-writing tip for writers? So I could, I like to say it could be anything like go out for a walk, take vitamin c yeah, vitamin d, definitely go out for a walk, definitely walking, so helpful.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I would say, um, look, you have to look after yourself and you know, uh, if you're stuck, try and you refill the creative well, by going for a walk or going to an art gallery or whatever it does. Go for a swim, yeah, yeah, and don't be hard on yourself. Don't be hard on yourself. Someone's got to treat you nicely. It might as well be you.
Speaker 2:I think that is perfect. And finally, rachel Ward, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:um, well, I'm on um. I've got a website, rachelwardbookscom. I'm on blue sky, I think I'm rachelwardbooks there and to instagram, I'm rachel ward art. So those are some of my paintings they're very good, I can see them, thank you, um, and I've got a sub stack as well, so I'm rachel ward books there. I think my sub stack is cozy crime club more or something oh, I'm gonna.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna come find you on sub stack, I love that's quite a new thing, and I keep forgetting I need to actually post this. I'll try and do better this year.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'm enjoying it so far, thank you. Well, Rachel, that just leaves me to say, Rachel Ward, thank you very much for being part of the conversation.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:I've really really enjoyed it thank you for joining me for this episode of the conversation. I'll be back next Tuesday with a new episode. Make sure that you subscribe so that you don't miss out on the next episode or any bonus episodes, and it would mean a lot if you took a minute to leave a review. You can follow me on social media. My links are on my website, nadinemaffersoncom, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode, email the conversation at nadinemaffersoncom. See you soon.
