The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Coffee Break with Kia Abdullah: What Happens In The Dark
In this episode of 'Coffee Break', bestselling and award winning author of 'Take It Back', 'Truth Be Told', 'Next of Kin' and 'Those People Next Door', Kia Abdullah joins me to talk about her new book, What Happens In the Dark.
With her trademark twists and meticulous plotting, this novel delivers both a page-turning thriller and a thought-provoking exploration of justice. Discover why readers and fellow authors alike find themselves messaging Kia Abdullah after finishing her books, desperate to discuss the shocking revelations that leave them reeling.
Lily and Safa were best friends growing up. Now, Lily is the nation’s favourite breakfast TV presenter and Safa, once a renowned journalist, is reeling from a recent fall from grace.
When news breaks about suspicious bruises on Lily’s body, Safa attempts to rekindle their old friendship. But Lily claims the bruises are nothing to worry about.
And then one night the police are called to Lily’s home. Lily is strangely calm – and a body lies dead at her feet.
Lily pleads not guilty, and then says nothing more. Driven by her desire to give a voice to all victims, Safa begins her own investigation into what happened that night.
But Safa is not prepared for what her quest for justice will uncover …
Ruthless Truth--Episode 10: Steve Jobs, the iPhone and Me...The Untold StoryIs an opinion platform hosted by Marvin “Truth” Davis. My life and career...
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Hello and welcome to the Conversation Coffee Break with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you're enjoying your week. I'm enjoying my week. The sun is out, it's hot, I'm feeling so much better and it's just glorious to be out there and just living life. And also I've been conducting a bit of market research, getting a bit of listener feedback about this new segment of the conversation podcast called coffee break, and the listener feedback has been good. You are enjoying these coffee break episodes, which fills me with joy because when you're starting something new, you can always feel a little bit like is it going to work? Is this a risk I should be taking? Should I just leave things as they are? And it's always good to see that a risk has paid off because you are enjoying the episodes and I'm really enjoying recording them. And if this is your first Coffee Break episode, then let me explain.
Speaker 1:Coffee Break is a brand new segment of the Conversation podcast which will officially launch in September with season four of the podcast. Now Coffee Breaks are much shorter episodes, generally about 20 to 30 minutes, but sometimes we do go a little bit over and in our coffee break episodes I talk to the author only about their brand new book, and this is my fifth coffee break episode. Previous coffee breaks have featured SA Cosby, rod Reynolds, lola Jay and Helen Monks-Takar, and in today's coffee break, I'm taking a break with best-selling and award-winning author, kia Abdullah. Kia Abdullah's previous books include Take it Back, truth Be Told Next, gough Kin and those People Next Door, and her new book, which is out today. So happy publication day, kia. Is what Happens in the Dark Now. Normally I would say sit, sit back, we'll go for a walk, but instead grab a cup of coffee or tea and enjoy your break. Kia Abdullah, welcome to the conversation. Coffee break.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me, nadine.
Speaker 1:You are very welcome. I'm glad you are here, right? My first question for you, kia, is can you tell the listeners about your book what happens in the dark? And I'm holding up the proof copy because oh, perfect.
Speaker 2:So this is the finished copy. What happens in the dark? Look at this foil. Um, yes, of course. So what happens in the dark is book five. Uh, in it we meet safa salim, who is a journalist that used to work at the UK's most respected newspaper, but following a fall from grace, she's ended up at a local rag in East London, and there she is called into her editor's office one day and asked to look into Lily Astor, who happens to be a famous breakfast TV presenter, who appeared on screen that morning with bruises on her body. And Safa and Lily happened to be childhood best friends, but they lost touch. So Safa tries to get back in touch and find out what happened. Lily insists that the bruises were innocent and initially Safa believes her, so decides to kind of leave it alone. But then a few days later the police are called to Lily's home and, although she appears quite calm, a dead body is lying at her feet and Saffa begins her own investigation into what happened. But let's just say she is not prepared for what she will uncover.
Speaker 1:Right, I've read it and I think it's amazing. Also, I think all of Kia's books are amazing, because every time I read one of yours I'm like, oh my god, she's so good. Thank you, this is a question I had which is not on our official list, but how do you think you've grown as a writer since your debut, take it Back, was published?
Speaker 2:I think I'm more confident in my ability. So, although the writing doesn't necessarily get any easier, I remember David Nichol, the author of the Megaseller, one day saying it never gets easier and I remember reading that, going God really, and I think that's true but I'm confident that I can get to the end. So I know it's going to take a lot of work and there are, of course, days I'm like why the hell am I doing this? You know there are easier ways to earn money and you know I mean I love books, so I could just be a bookseller. I could go and get a part-time job in Waterstones and still be publishing that way. But now I have the confidence to know that I can get through all of that. You know the difficult period. I can get through the weeds and I can get to the end, and so that, as a writer, is really helpful to know that I now have the tools in my toolbox to get to the end without having a breakdown.
Speaker 1:What does keep you going, though? Like what methods do you think you've you've got in place now to help, help push through, because those days are hard when you just do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those days are hard, I think, and this is still really difficult for me. I think knowing when to just step back from your desk and not throw good hours after bad, because sometimes you're like I haven't hit my word count, I've got to brute force my way to the end, I've got to just sit here until I get it done. And there are days where I do just sit there and I do get it done and the writing is terrible, but I know I've hit my word count. But there are days where you know it's 5pm and I'm like me sitting at my desk for another four hours is not going to get me anywhere. So don't throw good hours after that. And so it's knowing when to step away.
Speaker 2:I think just getting out of the house really helps, and this is why I found book form. You know we can talk about that a bit more, but so hard because during the pandemic there was just nowhere to go, no one to talk to, nothing to do, and so for me, just being out in the world is really energizing. So, whether it's, you know, going for a walk, I box a lot, so I go boxing three times a week that really helps energize me. So just something physical, because obviously what we do is so cerebral. Just getting yourself away from your desk can help, and so, yeah, I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:I was um talking to who was I talking to? Sa Cosby, um, not for this a while ago, and we were just talking about how much time we spent like?
Speaker 2:can we be like? Sa Cosby is your friend and you call him.
Speaker 1:Sean, unlike the, rest of us.
Speaker 1:I aspire to call SA Cosby Sean one day it's cool having famous friends, but, um, but what I'm saying is that we were talking about the amount of times that we spend at our desk and, I suppose, writing full-time, and he was just basically saying that it is a job and you wouldn't want to spend 24 7 at your desk at your job. So, like your weekend, you need to, you know, be precious of your weekends, like, look after them, you want to remember that, even though it was a passion, it is a job now and with that comes danger.
Speaker 2:You know, when you do turn your passion into a job, it sometimes does feel like work, and that's because it is work and and coming back to boxing, you know it's like, oh god, you know what if I put on a show, what if I get involved in promoting, what if? And I have to take a step back and I and think you know, it's okay to just have hobbies without turning them into side hustles, and so, yeah, I mean, he's absolutely right, it is a job and it's okay to feel fed up with it some sometimes yeah, I wrote a sub stack about that.
Speaker 1:Um, I can't remember when it was sometime earlier in the year, because my because me and my best friend were talking about when your hobby becomes your job, because I was saying I don't have a hobby and she's like, oh no, but you're right, I'm like, no, that's, that's my job now that's my job yeah.
Speaker 1:I need something else other than outside of this, so you need I think it's important to have something outside of exactly our writing, outside of our books. So, kia, what came to you first? Was it the character, a specific scene, the overall premise or something completely different?
Speaker 2:I think the theme came to me first. I wanted to write something about violence against women and girls. You know, we've had years of the me too conversation and although I think it has changed things a little bit, I don't think the results have been as wide-ranging as we'd like. And, for example, last year we had the whole choose the bear conversation, and for listeners and viewers who aren't familiar, the question was if you're isolated in a forest somewhere, would you rather be alone with a man or a bear? And huge swathes of women were choosing the bear. And, to be honest, I still don't know my answer to that question.
Speaker 2:But I just thought it was such an interesting conversation and I wanted to explore it more deeply. And I also wanted to play with the idea of the perfect victim and how speaking out about violence exposes you to these impossible standards. It's like, oh you know, if you acted like a bitch that one time and somebody captured it in public, can you really be believed? And so I wanted to look into that as well. So the theme came first, and then Suffer, the main character, and Lily came after, and I really, I really love Suffer as a character. I think you know she's probably my favourite character that I've ever written, so I really hope that readers love her as much as I do.
Speaker 1:Were you excited to meet her on the page? You know when you finish a chapter and then maybe you haven't seen her in that chapter, but you know she's coming back in the next chapter. Were you excited to meet her?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I have a lot of affection for her. Sometimes what I often do with my characters is, you know, make them super tough and then I have to add kind of vulnerability. Vulnerability to them, whereas Sapphire, she kind of came to me really fully formed and so, yeah, I really can't wait for readers to meet her and see what they think.
Speaker 1:I always find it interesting, you know, when people, when I say us as writers or as creatives, say the character came to us fully formed. And I think sometimes I don't know if readers understand exactly what we mean by that, because sometimes you can have a writer, you can have a character, but it takes a lot of work getting to know them and working out what their motivations are and you know what they like, what they don't like in their relationships, all these different things. But then sometimes they just appear on the page and they are exactly who they are.
Speaker 2:Who they are.
Speaker 1:yeah, you don't have to mine for information from them.
Speaker 2:I mean it's interesting because with her I did this thing. I can't remember the five situations, but for me to kind of help flesh her out, I had these five situations, like one of them was if someone jumps the queue, what would the character say? Or what would the character do? Or what would the character do Would they just allow them to? Would they confront them? Would they be rude? And there were five scenarios and I just instinctively knew how she would be and how she would react in all five scenarios and so that was just really nice to know, on a very kind of deep level, who she was, how she would react, how she interacts with the characters around her and her relationships, and so so you know, as a writer that's kind of what you want, although you know there can be pleasure in working out who somebody is as well. But yeah, I love that. She kind of came to me as as a person that I almost kind of knew in real life.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, as we're talking about characters, which character surprised you the most whilst writing?
Speaker 2:See, that's a really good question because it really closely relates to what I was just saying. So there's a character called Oliver Witherow in the book and he's a bit of a posh boy character and he's part of the reason why Suffer has ended up at this local rag in East London. And initially, you know, he he is a bit of a hate figure for the reader, but I kind of found myself feeling a bit of affection towards him. You know, he's quite funny, he's quite biting. It's the sort of humor that I like and he he's.
Speaker 2:He's actually going to be back in the next novel and oh is he yeah, and I give him a little bit more depth than what I initially planned planned him to have, and so I think he surprised me, um, when in in the course of writing this book and the next one, I liked him.
Speaker 1:Every time he came on the page I kept thinking you can't handle the real world.
Speaker 2:There's no way you can handle it so I think you know, I think he will split readers. I know somebody else said I can't wait for him to get his comeuppance and I think some people would like him and would like spending time with him, because he just has that level of humour that I quite like.
Speaker 1:But you need that, don't you? And I think this is what I've learned through writing my own book. Sometimes you need to have that balance and sometimes the original intention you had for a character that doesn't. You don't maintain that throughout the book.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it changes no, and I'm really jealous of I mean I'm not a funny writer, I'm not. I don't have comic timing, I struggle with that. So my books don't have, you know, many moments of kind of levity. But I really I'm really jealous of crime authors who can kind of tackle really light and dark subjects but that have those moments of lightness and comedy. I really envy that. I mean, that's not what you get from my books but I love that as a as a reader, when there are just these moments of lightness to contrast the dark what else do you envy?
Speaker 1:as a writer in a good way, I think you can have envy in a good way, not like, oh my god, I mean, like the purest is just the writing.
Speaker 2:Like, sometimes you'll read a turn of phrase and I recently read Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver. You know, obviously she writes in a very different genre, but just some of the writing and the way she describes characters. I remember this line. She said you know, being a child or being a kid is a terrible thing, in charge of nothing. And I thought you know that's just. Or being a kid is a terrible thing, in charge of nothing. And I thought you know, that's just such a gorgeous, beautiful way to describe childhood. And yeah, so sometimes I'll just come across a turn of phrase and think, you know, not in a million years at my desk would I have come up with that metaphor or that way to describe somebody. And so, yeah, it's just the writing, you know, which I guess is like the simplest, most basic answer. But yeah, it's just the writing, you know, which I guess is the simplest, most basic answer.
Speaker 1:But yeah, have you surprised yourself when you're writing, whether it's like a chapter, a scene, and you're just like, wow, this is good.
Speaker 2:I mean, sometimes I write like one of the kind of, I suppose monologues from Take it Back Readers still quote back at me. And it's Zahra who's the main character and her backstory is, you know, she comes from a very conservative Muslim family and finally she has this conversation with her mother where she says you know, oppression doesn't spread through men with guns or bombs on trains. It spreads through when women like you, you know, with love and and with all the affection in the world, tell their daughters not to dress a certain way or behave a certain way. And and when I wrote that monologue I thought you know, god, that really captures well what I want to say to my mum, and the fact that so many desi women have come to me and quoted that has showed me that it really resonated with them, and so I'm really proud of that kind of section and that speech that she gives to her mum yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So what's the most random fact you now know because of this book?
Speaker 2:Oh, you know what? My random fact is probably quite stark. In the course of researching this novel, I found out that British Bangladeshi women are 24% less likely to receive an epidural during childbirth. You know, that's obviously quite niche, but I think it speaks to the way women of colour are treated by the health system, by kind of figures of authority and, look, I don't know if that's because they're not able to advocate for themselves, if it's because they're thought to withstand pain better in the way black women have have. You know, it's a massive misconception for for many, many years of thought to be able to do um. But I thought that was quite stark. Um, and there was another statistic as well. I think it was like young British black girls are I don't want to say the figure, I think it's something like three times more likely to be strip searched um than the white counterparts. I don't know exactly, but it was something like that which, again, was quite stark.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, I'm sorry it's not a fun fact, no, you know, no, it's not a fun fact, but you know, you know the strip search figure. It always baffles me because I'm always, I think, when I look at these um, I say judicial figures, things you know come from law and order. I'm always looking at it from the viewpoint as a criminal lawyer and I'm and I know what the rules are, and it's like I know what the rules, I know what the criteria are. You can't just strip search someone just because you feel like it. You know there are steps you have to go through and I always just find it baffling that we end up with these statistics that you know young black girls are was just saying, three times more likely to be strip searched, because I'm like it's not easy to do that, you just can't do it because it's Tuesday. There's like there are rules and it just it blows my mind completely.
Speaker 2:I know it's. I mean, look you, you know you'll know more about all of this than than I will. But you know we talk about, know, do we live in a racist country? And then you hear things like that. And so I've just looked it up. Actually it is, yeah, it says Safa came to learn that black girls were three times more likely to undergo invasive strip searches by the Met Police. And so, yeah, I mean, and look, there's so much we can say about the sexualisation or the adultification of young black girls, and so there are all these conversations going on, and so that's kind of like a sub-theme in the novel as well. You know what privileges we afford to certain women versus others. And so, yeah, I come back to next time. I think of a fun fact for you, Nadine, I'm sorry. Yeah, with the next book.
Speaker 1:That has led us to quite a dark place. Quite quickly, with the next book we'll do fun facts okay. So was this book harder or easier to write than your last one, and why?
Speaker 2:god, it was so much easier. Um, those people next door. My fourth book was so hard. It was probably the hardest book that I've written, partly because I wrote it in the deep pandemic and I mentioned mentioned earlier.
Speaker 2:You know I am energized by being out in the world, by meeting people, talking to people, doing things, and so to write in a vacuum was really, really difficult. But secondly, I tried this wonderful thing that writers tell me about, which is pantsing, so not plotting, and I mean I had a beginning and I had an end to the novel, but I didn't have a middle and I thought, well, you know, if Lisa Jewell can do it and Ian Rankin can do it and they come up with amazing books, then maybe I can try and do it. And I can't do it. And so there were just days I was like how do I get to the end, like who does this? And I just I literally had like a flow chart with four different characters and four different actions and just found myself in a bit of a quagmire. And so now I know like my technique is to plot, and so for this book I went back to what I know, which is plot, plot, plot, and because of that, I found it a lot, lot easier to write.
Speaker 1:See, I find it so strange and so crazy that you did that, because I know you and you know, and I say we work together in a sense of when you, we have, like your consultations on different aspects of your book and stuff. So I, I and you, you've sent me, I've seen your spreadsheets. So the fact that you're sitting there telling me that you pants the book, I'm like that's not Kia, why would you do that to yourself?
Speaker 2:and, bearing in mind, I only pants the middle bit, you know. So I had the big beginning and the end. But yeah, it's just not my style, you know it's not my style. And so I think it's good to experiment, like with what happens in the dark. I've experimented with a bit of a subplot, which I've never done in my other novels. It's always been, you know, one main plot, beginning to the end, um and and that was quite hard but I enjoyed it. So I think you do need to push yourself as a writer, but when it comes to technique, if if you know what your technique is and it works for you, then follow that yeah, I, I know the pants is not the way, it's not the way for me, it's not the way for you.
Speaker 2:No, I think you know, it's because these writers that I admire say they just sit down and write and I think, well, there's got to be something in it. But you know, there's something in it for them. There's nothing in it for me is what I've discovered but then again it's like you said.
Speaker 1:I don't think there's anything wrong necessarily with like let me just try and see, because these are the writers I admire, this is their technique. Let me see if that works for me and you can try it and then you work out. Very well, I would have worked out very quickly. This definitely does not work does not work for me, but I suppose that's. It's also a good way of learning about yourself as a writer exactly yeah, I agree, all right.
Speaker 1:So, kia, without giving away any spoilers, did the book end the way you originally planned or did it surprise you too?
Speaker 2:No, as I said, I'm a plotter so I knew how it would end. You know, there are occasions where certain things reveal themselves to me and I think that can work really well. I think maybe it's Ian Rankin who said you know, if you don't know how the book will end, then the reader won't know how the book will end, and there's definitely merit in that. I remember with Next of Kin, my third book, there's a final twist that I didn't know and it came to me as I was writing the scene and it's always the one that you know readers write to me.
Speaker 2:Just yesterday I had somebody on Instagram say I read Next of Kin two years ago and I still think about the twist and so not planning can definitely work well, but with most of my novels, the twist or the reveal is so intricately linked to everything that came before it. So I really need to know in order to kind of seed those clues and and all the signals and the signs that readers can come back to and think, oh my god, yeah, it was there all along, because otherwise the payoff doesn't feel deserved and it doesn't hit quite the same. So for me, yes, I do need to know how it ends and I do need to be, you know. Obviously you can come back and you can kind of crop dust. You know your novel with all those clues, but for me, because it is so intricately linked, it really helps me to know at the beginning how the book will end because I suppose I don't know is it harder to go back?
Speaker 1:because it's not even like you're unraveling, because you're having to go back and actually plant something new in and then make sure that everything then adds up and ties in, exactly because yeah, it's like a weave, isn't it?
Speaker 2:so, yeah, if you know, you can weave in all that, all the clues and the color, from the beginning, and if you don't, then you need to unthread parts of it and it's just a lot more work. And so, yeah, for me I need to know how it ends.
Speaker 1:I think that's that's the best way for me, I think I think'm okay with like new, like, I say, subplots, like coming out of nowhere. I think I'm okay with that. But I think I need to because I plan, I have an idea of how it ends. So, even if like a character, you know, I'm just saying if the killer might change, I might change who the killer is, but the way in which it's interesting, yeah, but the way in which it ends still remains relatively the same.
Speaker 1:I don't think it changes that much so we're plotters for life, basically oh yeah, I ain't doing for god, I couldn't. I couldn't put myself for it. I think I could pants it for 20 000 words words, but I know after 20,000 words I need a plan. I could pants act one, but after that I need a plan for act two and three, because otherwise there'll just be no books. So, kia, did you ever hit the wall when writing this book and how did you get past?
Speaker 2:it. I mean, compared to those people next door, like I said, it was a breeze. But I think the hardest part was probably the first round of edits. Full disclosure.
Speaker 2:Nadine and I share the same editor, manpreet Garavar, who is brilliant, by the way. I mean she can. She takes a novel and she knows exactly how to, exactly what needs work. Yeah, and so I think, with what happens in the dark, I felt like I had a really great story, but she saw that it needed more. You know, more emotion, more detail, and she knew where it needed those things.
Speaker 2:But of course, you know talking about unweaving a story, it's. It's a bit like a house of cards, isn't it? If you change one element, you can't just change at the top. You know you need to undo bits of it and you need to go back to the bottom. And my technique is, you know, if there are like three major things that need to be changed, you can't just tackle all of those three in the second edit. You need to do one, one piece by one piece.
Speaker 2:And so, for example, one of the things that Manpreet wanted me to change is have a bit more of Lillian Safa's childhood relationship in the novel, you know. So maybe flashbacks or maybe memories just cementing their relationship a bit more. So I couldn't do that the same time, as you know, say, working on the court scenes, and so I did like a whole edit of the book where my main focus was okay, how am I developing Lillian Safa's relationship through the novel? Then the second run is okay how can I develop some of the court scenes? And so I think that first round of revisions was really hard, you know, and there were days where I was like I don't know if I can do this. But coming back to your first question you know earlier question how have I grown as a writer?
Speaker 1:I know I can do it and so, you know, just stop moaning and get on with it do you know, when you look back to when you had, when you were going through that editing process with book one and you compare it to your editing process with what happens in the dark, I think that's when you can really see how you've grown and how you've changed as a as a writer is how you respond to edits because my response to edits for the jigsaw man was like oh my god, what is this?
Speaker 1:you want me to do? What how? You want a red herring? How am I supposed to put a red herring in? It was like panic to the fishmonger. Yeah, exactly, I'm gonna go to the fishmonger, but then with the latest book, it's OK, you need to do these things. It's a lot more measured, a lot more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm lucky in that I think I've always just had a very positive, you know, experience with editors and maybe it comes from so I used to work at Asian Woman magazine as a features editor and I've been on both sides of the fence where I was a very heavy handed editor, and I think then I learned that actually it's not me editing a feature to be my voice, it's editing it to retain the voice but just polish it a bit more. And so through that I understood the role of an editor and that they're trying to help you build the best work that you can. And you know, and I think different editors work different ways.
Speaker 2:Like Manpreet will never change my work on a line-to-line basis. Like she'll never say oh, oh, you know, like, change this word to that hers, I feel like more developmental, more structural, drawing things out. You know, occasionally she might say like, oh, take this line out, but that's very, very rare, and so in terms of line edits I don't get many kind of suggestions. It's more just making the work stronger, more emotional, more, you know, hit harder, where are the plot holes? And and so she really kind of retools the novel in that way, and so I don't think I've been lucky enough that I don't think I've ever looked at her revision letter and been like what the hell is this? Or felt resistant to it, and that's lucky. Um, yeah, I'm just trying to think of an example, and I think even then, if I did have like a visceral reaction, I probably would follow the advice, which is, you know, just put the letter away for two days, come back to it and then you see that your editor is actually right.
Speaker 1:Um, so, yeah, I've always had a very positive experience with editing my novels you know it's funny when you was talking about you know, editing yourself and like looking for the emotion, and I was just. It's only just occurred to me that as a lawyer, I've always had to do the opposite. I've always had to take the emotion out of it. So anything I write, whether it's an application to the court, or whether I'm just putting together a brief to counsel, or putting together my um god, putting together my, my clients, the defendant's proof of evidence, so their statement, I'm taking all the emotion out because I'm just dealing with facts. Yeah, and now I suppose that's probably done. When I do get comments, it's more emotion, yeah it's like more emotion, because I haven't.
Speaker 1:I haven't been trained that way, I've been trained to just deal with the facts. That's really interesting, right, okay, and it's only from talking to you I'm just like, oh, I just had that aha moment.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, that's really interesting. So it's kind of two different ways of thinking almost, isn't it? Not just writing but thinking?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just. There's no emotion here, I just deal with it. You have no feelings. That's what I told the baby lawyers. When I'm teaching them advocacy, I always say to them you're robots, you. It goes back to what I told the baby lawyers. When I'm teaching them advocacy, I always say to them you're robots, you have no feelings, you don't think, you don't believe, you just submit.
Speaker 2:Not very helpful qualities in a novelist, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:No, they're not. It's the complete opposite. You don't want that. You need feelings. You need to understand how not a client, how a character feels, you know, and how they're going to respond. And this is a question I had because I was just thinking about Lily and Safa. Did you like Lily?
Speaker 2:Oh god, that's a really interesting question. I kind of wanted her to be a little bit unlikable, because, coming back to this thing of a perfect victim, and so if a woman says that she's a victim, is the fact that she's unlikable less likely for her to be believed? And so I think I had a lot of sympathy for her. But whether I liked her I don't know, I don't know. It'll be interesting to see what readers think.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you what I think afterwards, okay, but you know, but the likability thing, it's tricky because like going back to being a lawyer and I've had clients and they're not likable. They're really, they're just everything about them, like you have a visual reaction to them the minute they open their mouth. You just just you don't like them. And I've done trials. I had a client charged with Section 18. So this is GBH, causing grievous bodily harm of intent, and he was not likable and he gave evidence and you just think, oh, you're just digging a hole for yourself. But the best way for me to deal with it was to address his lack of a personality and how unlikable he was. I just had to deal with that straight on with the jury and then say to them you know, your, yeah, your job's not to judge his likability. It's not about personality, it is about whether or not the prosecution have proved the case. But it does, it's, yeah, it's something you, you have to consider and it informs so much of life.
Speaker 2:And you know we talk about pretty privilege, but there's kind of charm privilege or charisma privilege as well, isn't there? You know, if you can walk into a room and make yourself likable, people immediately think you're smarter, people immediately think you're a good person and you get all of these. You know the halo effect as well. So I'm sure you've you've also done the opposite. You know, defended people who may have been guilty, but their charisma has worked in their favor oh, my god, you've seen them charmed.
Speaker 1:They're sitting in the witness box. They just charm everyone, everyone in the room, and you're like, and I'm sitting there thinking there's no way you might be thinking you're a terrible person, but they have that ability to charm and, I suppose, to manipulate. Courtroom's an interesting place to be to see personalities.
Speaker 2:I always say and and although you know it trains some of the emotion out of you there's a lot more material as well, to kind of cherry pick for your novels as well, I bet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's all there. It's a great big supermarket. So, kia, what are you working on next?
Speaker 2:I'm working on book six, so Safa Saleem will be back. All my early readers from what Happens in the Dark have already started messaging me going is there going to be a sequel? Will we see Safa again? And so, yes, she will be back in book six, yet untitled, but she'll be working on a case that will be familiar to readers who've read what Happens in the Dark. And you know I'm kind of flirting with the idea of making her a series character, and I think writing a series has different challenges, and so I don't know if I want to grapple with those challenges, but I do love her as a character and I think she has series potential.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you this is without giving away spoilers or anything Were there any times, when you was writing this book, that you thought let me just leave the subplot alone, let me just completely forget about it?
Speaker 2:as in take it out completely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I did, because I think a it, you know, complicates things um and b initially I'm not sure it, you know, there's this wisdom that if you can take a subplot out of a novel and you still have a fully formed novel, then maybe you should just take it out, and it certainly would have made my life easier.
Speaker 2:But I found the subplot really, really interesting and it played into the themes about how different women are treated, how there's a difference between you know if you're a privileged white, you know if you're a privileged white woman like Lily, versus if you're, you know, come from a very disadvantaged background, if you can't speak English, for example, how you know, coming back to this epidural fact that I learned how are women who maybe can't speak English or can't advocate for themselves as strongly treated by bodies of authority, authority and so that kind of fed into the theme as well, and it just gave me more fertile ground to to explore in the novel and so in the end I wanted to keep it.
Speaker 2:I did have a conversation with Meredith. I said you know, what do you think about this? Should we take it out? And she thought about it and you know, I think if she thought it was going to be a better book without it, she would have no qualms about saying you know, get rid of this extra 20 000 words. But she was like, no, actually I think it does enrich the novel as long as we can integrate it into the main plot, which I think we've done. And so, yeah, I think it makes it a richer novel for staying in does it make?
Speaker 1:I know we're talking around it, so the listeners will just have to buy the book and read it and then I'll work out what we're talking about. But we are talking around it. But do you think like writing and having that subplot? Did it make you think of yourself differently as a writer? Because I think sometimes my word, one of my words for the year has been like being brave as a writer and like taking on different subjects or taking on different genres. Did it make you think actually there's more I can do as a writer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it did challenge me, and I think with books one to four it was.
Speaker 2:You know, there was a court case in the middle. And so, you know, there's a crime, there's a court case and there's a resolution, whereas this book is slightly different I mean, it does still follow that template, but you had this other thread running through it and so I think, yeah, it proved to me that I can tackle something different. And when those first revisions came back, it was really about making sure that I can integrate those two plots into a cohesive whole. And there were days where I thought, you know, can I do this, as you say? You know, is it easier to just rip it out and put it in the bin? It will make my life a lot easier. But having done it, I know that I've grown in confidence, you know, and talking about this toolbox, you know I did another tool in my toolbox and knowing that I can hit a wall, I can have doubt, I can have lack of confidence, but then I can get to the end and, you know, have a book that I'm proud of as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what message or feeling do you hope readers take away from what Happens in the Dark?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good question. Um, well, firstly, I hope that they love Safa as much as I do, but I also want them to reflect on some of the themes in the book. There's a part where, you know, safa reflects on on that question. We've all heard like why didn't she say anything at the time? And she notes how. There's a line you know she says how speak at your weakest or hold your tongue seems to be the prevailing message.
Speaker 2:And how many times, you know, have we been complicit in that conversation. You know, have we said well, why did she stay with him for that long, you know, if they weren't happy? Or why does she look? Why is she smiling in these pictures? Or why did, why did she wait so long to say something? So I want readers to kind of think about times where they may have thought the same thing. And you know, one thing I always hope with my books is you know you finish the last page and you immediately want to talk to somebody about it and so, yeah, if that's, you know what they're left with, then I feel like I've done my job as a novelist.
Speaker 1:I think I normally just message you Like Kia.
Speaker 2:What did you do? I mean, what was nice is. Another mutual friend of ours, louise Hare, read the book and she was like I've got this sussed. You know, I've got this time. Kia's not going to get me, this time she's not going to get me.
Speaker 1:And then she messaged me and she was like you effing got me and I was like don't you have like a. Don't you feel satisfied, though, when you?
Speaker 2:get those messages. Yeah, it's very like.
Speaker 1:Kia, you're like yes it's very satisfying yeah, okay, kia, finally to end our coffee break, which book, film show or video game do you recommend?
Speaker 2:do you know, I'm going to be really unoriginal and say the book that I mentioned earlier, which is demon copperhead by barbara kingsolver. And I say I'm being unoriginal because it won the pulitzer prize. It won the women's prize for fiction, so it's no secret that it's an amazing book, but I just absolutely loved it. I think Demon is probably my favorite character ever. I mean, up until now it's been Anne Shirley from Anne of Green Gables, like this, old, oh my god. Look at that, look at this battered old copy, you know did you watch the series?
Speaker 2:I didn't know, you know why I'm just resistant to in case I don't love Anne. Oh, you'd love her, you think?
Speaker 2:okay, all right, I'm going to give it a shot then, because do you know what? For ages I? I didn't reread this book because I just thought, oh god, you know what if I'm not as fond of her as I was when I was younger? But I reread it a couple of years ago for a piece that I was writing for the FT and I just, you know, still absolutely loved her. But she has stiff competition from Demon, you know, I just fell in love with the character and she's an extraordinary writer. So if you haven't read Demon Copperhead, definitely, definitely add it to your list.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, that just leaves me to Abdullah to say thank you so much for joining me for the conversation. Coffee break.
Speaker 2:Thank you, nadine, it's been a pleasure, as ever.
Speaker 1:And that's it for this coffee break. Thank you so much for joining me. Starting from season four, we'll be bringing you regular coffee breaks 30 minute episodes perfect for a quick chat with your favourite authors about their latest books. And here's the fun part next season, we are answering your questions. If there's something you've always wanted to ask an author, send it in Email, your question to theconversation at nadiemathersoncom, and we might just answer it in a future episode, with a special shout out to you, of course. Until next time, keep reading, keep listening, and I'll see you soon for another coffee break. Oh and before I forget, don't forget to subscribe, follow, like, review and share this episode with your friends. Your support keeps the podcast growing and if you head down to the show notes, you can also support the podcast by buying us a cup of coffee. The links are in the show notes.
