The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Catherine Yardley: Publishing Is Weird, But We Keep Going Anyway
What does it truly take to survive in the bewildering world of publishing? My conversation with Catherine Yardley reveals the resilience at the heart of every writer's journey.
From her unconventional start sending manuscripts directly to major publishers (without an agent!) to self-publishing multiple books, Yardley embodies the persistence required to navigate an industry that often operates on its own inscrutable timeline.
Drawing from her decade-long acting career, Yardley brings authenticity to her latest novel "Where the Light is Hottest," which follows actress Natasha from small-town Scotland to Hollywood stardom.
Whether you're a writer battling rejection, a creative seeking your path, or simply someone navigating life's unpredictability, this conversation offers wisdom, warmth, and the reassurance that persistence is never wasted.
Natasha Jones has everything - a successful acting career, an Oscar, a wonderful husband and beautiful kids. But what does she have to go through to get there? From humble beginnings in a small town, Natasha's path to stardom is paved with setbacks, heartaches and moments of doubt.
In the glittering world of fame and fortune, where dreams are spun from starlight and ambition fuels the relentless pursuit of success, one woman's journey stands as a testament to the resilience of the human spirit.
Is an opinion platform hosted by Marvin “Truth” Davis. My life and career...
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Oh my god, you didn't choose my amazing book. But then I read what I'd sent and I was like, oh my god, I sent this to someone. It's so terrible and they were right to reject it. I think you do that sometimes as a writer you send something off. You're like this is the best thing I've ever written.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to another episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I really hope that you're enjoying your week. And yes, this is a double bubble of a week because you get two amazing conversations this week and I'm going to go straight into my conversation with author Catherine Yardley, whose novels Ember and when the Light is Hottest are out now, and in our conversation, catherine Yardley and I talk about the struggle of self-publishing, how she dealt with the challenge of balancing truth and glamour when writing her book, and how a tough year led to unexpected triumphs. Now, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Catherine Yardley, welcome to the conversation. Thank you for having me Right. My first question, catherine, is well, I was going to say it's my first question, but I just have to say, with your name, how many times have people said to you are you Catherine with a K? And you're like no, I'm Catherine with a C.
Speaker 1:Quite a lot, yeah. So there's quite a few different ways to spell it, and also sometimes I get Caroline as well. So yeah, I don't know. I think that sometimes they just see the C and then their brain does the rest.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's Catherine with a C only because my mum is Catherine with a C. So I'm like, let me just check, let me just ask the question. Okay, but now we'll go on to the writing question. That was just me being nosy, catherine. So what has your writing journey taught you about yourself?
Speaker 1:oh, that is such a good question, um, especially since all writing journeys are so long and arduous. Um, what's it taught me about myself? It's taught me that I'm resilient. Um, so I like that about myself. I like that I resilient. It's taught me that I could have more patience, and I have to get better at having patience. I think with publishing, it's like hurry up and wait You're either waiting to hear back from something or you're sending things off. So I think the thing it taught me is that, in a way, I'm a real writer because I just don't give up. You know, I just keep writing and keep sending things out there and, yeah, just, I won't quit because I love it.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's funny. I always find when I'm editing the podcast and normally I'm like I'm recording them a few months prior and then I'm recording them to go out and then I just notice sometimes there's like a general theme. I don't know how it's happened. It's just happened that there's a theme and it's the last few podcasts I've been editing there's there has been this strong theme of persistence. Just I just have to keep going, I just have to keep going, just keep going through the rejections and just not letting it derail me that's true, though, because if the rejections do derail you, then you just can't be a writer.
Speaker 1:I did an offer talk um, last week, and some of the people were like, well, I just I haven't sent my stuff out or I'm too scared to send my stuff out, and I just said to them look, it's a really tough business and but it what it is. It's a business of, like, collecting no's. You have to collect as much no's as possible until you get to your yes, and with every rejection it'll come back, and then you'll leave, you'll read the thing or you'll look at it and then you'll send it back out again. Because I think with me, um, in my 20s, I acted and I worked in the film industry and I did lots of really kind of co-exiting stuff. Like me in my 20s was kind of a pretty cool person, um, but then, when I was um, when I was 29, I got married and then I got pregnant and I thought, you know, my life's probably really about to change and I think now is probably a good time to like finish that book, write that book. And I'd written um five non-fiction well, four non-fiction books and one poetry book, and I self-published them.
Speaker 1:Um, I didn't really like the first one. I actually did try and sub to some some publications and even try and get an agent. I was too lazy for that. I just sent it to actual editors like HarperCollins and stuff. I know I'm so embarrassed about this now I'm so embarrassed, but this is the thing. I sent it to Penguin, I sent it to HarperCollins and they all replied to me and they were all so nice to me and this was in probably like 2014, something like that, so it was a really long time ago, um, but they were all so nice and then they sent me names of other editors to send the book to.
Speaker 1:And yeah, they were so nice and actually went to an acquisitions meeting no agent, an acquisitions meeting and then I ended up not getting picked up, said like after about six months, we're like you know, we really almost published this book. We're sorry, but we think it's just similar to this other thing we're publishing, but you know if you've got any other books and it was like it was this insane experience. Um, but I ended up self-publishing it. It did quite well. So that was my 20s was like I self-published these books. I self-published a poetry book and then, when I was. I hit fairly and it's really embarrassing now but I thought fairly was old we all do, though I remember I said it um, was I talking?
Speaker 2:I can't remember I was talking to you, but I was talking to someone and I was explaining that when I was training to be a solicitor and could I start. I would say I started late cause I did other things and I remember speaking to my mum on the phone and she's like what's wrong with you? And I'm like I'm going to be 29 by the time I qualify. I'm going to be so old and I would have been only 25, 26 at the time and to me 29, 30 was old and now, looking back, 48, I'm like I know it's so embarrassing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:but every now I now it. When, now, when I see someone's like I'm about to turn 30, I'm so old, I'm not, I'm like, I find it not not mean amusing. But I find it amusing because I know, like you're still a baby. Honestly, trust me, you're still a baby. Enjoy it, yeah, but I know you're a child like. This is the youngest adult age, if you think about it, because your 20s are kind of floundering.
Speaker 1:20s are hard. I have time with my sweater because you're not really fully formed in a way, but when? Yeah, I want to do my 20s again if you, I would not do my 20s.
Speaker 1:I think 20s is a really tough age. Anyone who's out there in their 20s, especially a woman, I think it's. I mean, I'm not being mean to the men I think being a woman in your 20s is really, really hard, like the older you get, the better it gets. But yeah, I've gone off on a tangent. But yeah, I hit fairy and I thought I'm so old and I haven't published a book. Um, traditionally published a book and I'm never going to do it. If I don't do it now, like time is running out and that's really embarrassing.
Speaker 1:But I thought you know what, I'll finish writing the book and I'll send it off. And so when my baby was born, I'd walk around with him in the pram until he fell asleep and then I'd take out my iPhone and I'd write two, three thousand words on my iPhone until I had a final draft of the book that's actually out now when the Light is Hottest, and that's what I did. And then the first draft was terrible. It was so awful, like my husband actually read I think it's my only book of mine he's actually read. He said that was unreadable he said, that was unreadable he said it's unreadable.
Speaker 1:He said some of the dialogue's really good though, and I was like, okay, we need more of the dialogue. And I was like, okay, um, we, I'm not going to divorce you at this point, but that's put you on, that's put you on jack. Yeah, okay, imagine that's unreadable, unreadable. He, he's really sweet, but he's he's good and bunny quotes good at criticism so sometimes you need that, though.
Speaker 2:You need that, it's true. Yeah, bluntness, sometimes you don't need the, the affection that comes with familiarity. You need someone to be you know what. Yeah, yeah, there's some, there's some good lines in it, but no yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:I did need to hear that if he just said, oh, it's great and I sent it out. So, yes, I wrote this unreadable draft and then I thought he is right, it just needs so much work. Um, so I just kept doing. I actually sent it off. Do you know? The Good Housekeeping did a competition.
Speaker 2:Yes, I wonder, if I entered it I might have entered it, I entered it and I entered that book into it.
Speaker 1:And then, when they rejected it, I was so offended. I was like, oh my God, you didn't choose my amazing book. But then I read what I'd sent. I was like, oh my my god, I sent this to someone. It's still terrible and they were right to reject it. Because I think you do that sometimes as a writer you send something off like this is the best thing I've ever written. And then when it's rejected, you're like, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I do, I do. I do think, though, that in those early days, there is a, there is a bravery you have as a writer, and you kind of need that you need that bravery to, yeah, to send up those. Send up those drafts to editors who normally would not accept direct submissions. You need that. You need that bravery to send up your first draft to an agent. I mean, we've all done it, I know, and through that, you learn.
Speaker 1:That's how you get somewhere, though I mean I'm from a working class background. I grew up in Scotland. I mean I had no contacts in the publishing industry or even the film industry. You know, I moved to London First time I was 19,. I moved to London I didn't know anybody. I was just so ballsy, started going to auditions, would contact people I didn't know. I would call up people on the phone. That's really kind of what you have to do to kind of get anywhere, like especially in the creative industry, which is so tough. I mean it's it. I mean I'm not sure if it's as competitive as acting. Um, it probably is. To be fair. I mean you just don't realize because you're not. You don't end up in a room with all the other offers who are sending out their submissions.
Speaker 2:I think that's the thing, though, with, like lots of industries, that even like with law, when I was applying to be a trainee and in the beginning, so you don't know. So you're constantly learning as you go, especially if you don't come from that sort of background you don't have lawyers or, you say, actors or writers in your family. You're literally learning as you go, with each contact you make or each failed application that you make, and they'll say now it's competitive. You know, being a lawyer applying for training contracts or applying for people to do so, if you're a barrister, it's competitive, it's one out of how many hundreds are going to make it. Yeah, and I suppose the similarity I can't speak, the similarity is with, I suppose, being a writer and trying to get that deal is that you don't really know who else is, yeah, applying for the same thing. Because even if you're, unless you're sitting in an interview waiting room when you're applying for training, you're not sitting in the room with other people, so you're just throwing it out there and just hoping for the best.
Speaker 1:But the competition is right yeah, I think with anything like, there's hundreds of people going for every job, so you may as well do what you love or try and go for what you really want, because there's always other people going for it. But yeah, it's. It's back to that word persistence, isn't it Just not giving up?
Speaker 2:I don't even think, if you even realise that's what you're, that is persistence, that pushing you through in those early days, you just I feel like. You just feel like you want something, you want it and because you want it, you're just going to go forward with it and just see what happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, and I think you just you know so you just keep writing and keep writing and keep writing, exactly, and just keep sending stuff out. And I just I was saying that that's what I kept doing. I kept writing one book, and then another book, and then listeners.
Speaker 2:It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. So when did you realize you were a storyteller? That's a question.
Speaker 1:I like to ask these days do you know what?
Speaker 1:I am embarrassingly young, um, so when I just read a lot when I was a kid, my parents house was full of books. They put a really huge emphasis on reading, um, and how important it was to be well read, and they had encyclopedias. My mum would even buy the books from the library. Like it's like just shelves and shelves of books, and I would like read a book a day. And I think when I was like 10, I sent off some poems, uh, and I got some like really good rejections. But I also got a poem published in an anthology, which was really exciting. I was like, okay, I managed, I managed to get something published and I used to subscribe to Writing Magazine as well. So I think it was just something that I always really wanted to do. And then, when I was a teenager, I got glandular fever and it was really bad. So I was like in bed for like two and a half years.
Speaker 2:Two and a half years.
Speaker 1:Like something like that, and I was like homes, homeschooled and I got post-viral syndrome so I wasn't really healthy, properly healthy again until I was like 20. So it was like a really kind of long journey and then during that I just I read a lot, I wrote poems about like my feelings and yeah. So I think the writing's always been something that I did like. When I was an actor as well, I used to write sketch comedy, I was in a comedy group and I wrote scripts like my first, my debut novel, ember, was actually originally a film script which I rewrote into a novel, which is actually really hard to do. Um, but yeah, I guess, just always, I think there's just a. I think a lot of people are just born with a love. I think it's in you. I think if you're a writer, it's just it's just in you.
Speaker 2:But did you know that? Not like no, that's not the right question. But what made you decide to go down the acting route?
Speaker 1:I think with acting um, like I went to study something at college, kind of when I was a little bit healthier, like I'd missed a lot of my schooling from when I was in high school, and I went to go to college to study something, um, and there was an art course which I'd got a place on, but they were also doing auditions the same day for the drama course and I was really shy, like cripplingly shy, and I was thinking, oh, maybe if I did the acting course it would kind of help me with the shyness and kind of bring me out of myself. So I went to audition just, and then I got on stage and this is completely unlike me, because I was like always like I can't even talk to someone and I got on stage and I just did this improvisation and then I heard the woman who's leading the drama course say, yeah, she's really good, we need to have her, she can act. And I was like and then I got a place. It's actually quite competitive to get a place. I thought, okay, and then, yeah, I got a place in the acting course, turned down the art course and then after I did that, I kind of got like little parts here and there I've always like loved film, like I've always like obsessively loved film.
Speaker 1:I mean, I love, I just love like all storytelling. I love film, tv podcasts, novels, short stories, just like when people are connecting with each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did it surprise you, though, because you know you said you were you had crippling shyness, and the thing is that's not even unusual like, say, like. So you know I'm shy, I get stage fright, I don't like, in a sense, being seen. So did it surprise you when you realize that this is your space, this is where you're meant to be, and others can recognize that in you?
Speaker 1:it was a big surprise, because I think I really lacked confidence, because you think about I'd been ill for a really long time and because I was ill, I hadn't really spent a long time around people who weren't my family, so I just didn't know how to really connect with people.
Speaker 1:I always felt a bit like an alien in a room. I know I also moved around a lot when I was a kid so I always felt like I like the outsider, the kind of person who's on the peripheral. So when I think I just it was, I think it was the start of me just being like really brave. So the thing about me is that I'm I'm quite brave, I'll like go for things, even if I'm like this is terrifying. I'm I'm quite brave, I'll like go for things, even if I'm like this is terrifying. I'm so scared right now and I think I just really wanted to be someone who could do it, so I kind of decided that I was going to be someone who could do it yeah you know it's kind of say yes and find a way thing yeah, I've always been in the way.
Speaker 2:My mentality's always I'll just do it and just see what happens and like what's the worst that could happen. And it's only when I'm in it I'm like god, why did I do this? Why did I agree to do it? But I'm here now yeah, well, you're amazing.
Speaker 1:like your podcast's amazing. You got all your books. Do you know what? Can I say something? Something, yes, in 2020.
Speaker 1:So I also run Frost magazine and we do like lots of like book reviews and stuff and I was invited to HQ digital showcase in 2020 and I went with my friend and you weren't actually there in person, but your book was debuted there and you were on like they played a video of you and your book was there. So I feel it feels like a full circle moment, because I was like a complete nobody. I didn't have an agent, I hadn't sent out any books, and I was there with my friend, who's also a really good my friend, nadia, is also a really good writer and I was standing there and I was thinking like we both said to each other one day we will be authors, like one day we will write a book. And this podcast was like a full circle moment Because I remember watching your video and then your book being there, and I was like full circle moment because I remember watching your video and then your book being and I was like that woman is just so cool. She's so amazing.
Speaker 2:Oh wow. I'm trying to think where I was, because I do remember that I think I was invited to, yeah, because they were doing the showcase, but I had a feeling it was either my birthday and there was there was something I already had going on, and I have a feeling it was either my birthday and there was something I already had going on, and I have a feeling it was around my birthday. That's the only thing that can make sense. That's the only reason why I would say. That's the only reason why I would have said no.
Speaker 1:Or maybe I was even in the country I did. Yeah, you did this really good video and they played your video and all the journalists were like, oh, that book sounds amazing.
Speaker 2:they're all talking about it oh, wow, it's that sort of thing. Publishing is so weird because you know there's so much stuff going on. I mean, even though I just was, I just wasn't there for some whatever reason, but, um, there's always. There's so many conversations taking place behind the scenes that you're, as a writer, you're just not a rare wolf until someone tells you whether it's five years later or the next day, yeah, but yeah, it's like, it's like a full circle moment now.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you, I appreciate that yeah.
Speaker 2:So, catherine, what surprised you the most about publishing, like throughout your journey, now being in it with, like with your two books?
Speaker 1:I think it's how nice everybody is because, um, everybody is really nice. So I think that's the first thing that really surprised me is that when I meet people, if I meet publishers, agents, other writers, pretty much everybody is really nice. Yeah, I think the other thing that really um, it's like when I talked to my husband about publishing, he's like how can it exist, like, how does it work? He did, he can't wrap his head around it because I mean, I signed the contract for Widow let's Halt in 2023 and it came out this year. And he's like, why is there such a long gap to publish the book? And that happens a lot with books, like you sign a contract, then two, four years later the book comes out and it's just, yeah, it's a bit of an insane industry because it doesn't seem to have any rules or any rhyme or any reason at all like there's, there's yeah, I've said it so many times like it.
Speaker 2:It feels as though there are rules, but then the rules are always in a constant state of flux and if you come from any other industry I don't care if you came from butchery or you ran a pharmacy or a teacher you, when you come from any other industry and you're looking at publishing, you're thinking to yourself this doesn't make sense, like the business model doesn't doesn't make sense. How you deal with writers doesn't make sense. How you promote books none of it makes sense. And you and you're constantly with each, I think, with each book and with each conversation you have with other writer friends. You're constantly trying to make sense of it and when you feel like you've got a handle on it, it changes again.
Speaker 1:I know it's a tough industry and I think I knew it was going to be tough and I come from the film industry, which is also a really tough industry. Yeah, and I think publishing is just that. You're in the dark so much Like you. Just you never know what's happening and then at any moment something could happen, but it takes a really long time.
Speaker 2:That's the thing. You don't. You just don't know, and so you're constantly having. So you're constantly having to think, okay, I'm not hearing anything about this book, or I'm waiting to hear whether you do have a publishing deal and it's finishing, and you're waiting to hear whether, it's good, you're going to get a new deal. You have no idea what's going to happen. So there's always a side of you has to be thinking well, I need to be making other plans, I need to be considering other things, and that's not really a nice position that anyone wants to being as a writer, because I feel like and I'm talking about not the ones who are, I'm saying like top 10 making hundreds of thousands, I'm talking about everyone else like us, and you're like that's not something you want to be. You just want to feel I am writing my book, I am a writer, this is my life and I can eat and sleep and have nice holidays and do what I need to do yeah, I know it is really tough.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've been watching hacks. If you've seen that show, it's about no, I haven't seen it yet there's this, um, the older woman, james Smart.
Speaker 1:She does this monologue and saying so, she says to the younger writer says you've, you said you think it'll get easy at some point, but it doesn't. It just gets harder. You never get to the top, you never really make it, it's just constantly, it's just like constant that's. That's not verbatim or anything, but it's like I. It resonates so deeply with me because it's true, it's like you.
Speaker 1:You like you can go out of contracts or you might need to start right under a pseudonym. I mean, it's an industry where, even when your book comes out, they might not market it properly, but the person who's going to get the blame for that is the author. So if your book doesn't sell, it's your fault, and then it is really tough. Like you, you feel a lot of pressure as an author to like really put yourself out there because the stakes for you were so high, because this is your life, this is your dream, this is what you want more than anything. But with the publisher, I mean, they have loads, they have loads of offers and I actually think that people in publishing I do think they're nice, I do think they care, but I think they're overworked and I think they're underpaid and I think it's a business, so yeah, how do you keep going for it?
Speaker 2:How do you stay motivated?
Speaker 1:I just think that if it all fell apart, I'd still probably self-publish, and also I write for, like, different publications and I've been writing short stories and so I think I'll always write and I'll always be a writer and just yeah and talk in talking to my friends and all of my different groups I mean you probably have loads of groups as well debut group, querying group, groups, sub group I'm only laughing.
Speaker 2:so hard because before we started recording I was in my um, my one of my whatsapp groups, and, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't. But I think I feel like we all go through the same thing. It's just there's just different levels to it and you get you can have so many good highs with your career, but then the lows can come just as quickly, and sometimes they come in at exactly the same time you have.
Speaker 2:You hear a good result. I know you also hear a bad result. You're like, what? Like, for example, another writer friends I know, you know they they got the deal. They've been out of submission for months and months, and months, and months and months. They finally get the deal and then they're doing their edits and their editors leave and you're like, yeah, what? So now you've got a new editor? Yeah, but then with that you're worrying. Well, are they going to be as passionate about my work as the editor who originally signed me?
Speaker 1:so there's all these different things going on in your head and throughout this process yeah, I mean it's hard, but I think it's always like the love, like where the light is actually died on submission and then initially, and then it ended up getting published. So I honestly think, with perseverance it just really does pay off. And if you can't, I mean I I'm talking about my debut group like there's some of the most talented people that I know and one of one of the people in it had two books in a row die in submission for silly reasons, silly, silly reasons, and I was like it blew my mind it constantly blows my mind.
Speaker 2:I, I was. What was I doing? I was going through, I think I was going through the list of authors I recorded interviews with and I have to record interviews with and um. I was going through with and um, and I was going through some of them and I was just thinking you are amazing, like I read, I've read your books, and I'm not talking about the super, I'm talking about the superstar. I'm just I'm saying like normal mid-level, mid-list authors and I just I'm reading your book and I'm thinking you should be stratospheric. Your, your star should be so high and so bright and for the life of me, I can't work out why that hasn't happened for you, when your book suggests that that is what should be happening for you and that happens a lot.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have anything to do with talent, if you think about a lot of industries. If you're talented and you work hard, you'll get promotion and a promotion, a promotion in the publishing industry. Talent, it's not that it doesn't matter. You have to be talented. But you also need luck, you need persistence, you need to hit the market right, you need someone to believe in you. Yeah, there's just so many factors that come into play yeah, can I go back to your self-publishing?
Speaker 2:this was the question that was bouncing around my head, because it's always the it's always what I think about myself. Um, when I self-published, did you know what you was doing?
Speaker 1:um, not really. I mean, it's really hard to self-publish. I think one of the reasons why I don't want to do it again I'd rather someone give me lots of book deals is that it's really, really hard to self-publish and people don't realize, uh like, you have to have it edited, you have to get the cover done, and you're so exhausted by the time you actually publish it that then you have to market it as well and it's like oh my god is this? It's so hard. I mean, I did it on Amazon KDP, which actually made it a lot easier, but yeah, it is so hard. I always say I would on your own.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say, if I can, if I can help it, like I wouldn't do it. No, because it's not I didn't have. No, I did my research so I didn't go into it, into it completely blind and I had friends who were self-publishing at the time so we were like bouncing off each other. But then I quickly realized I'm like there are things I cannot do and not even that I cannot do. There's things I don't want to do, like I don't want to format a book, like I just find it boring and I don't have the time.
Speaker 1:I remember reading up about it it's just, it's just.
Speaker 2:No, it's not what I want to be doing with my time. And I remember reading up about it because in the beginning you think I'll just do everything, because that's what self-publishing means I will write the book. I will do the beginning. You think, yeah, I'll just do everything, because that's what self-publishing means. I will write the book, I will do the cover, I'll do everything. And I found an editor which was fine. I've got a cover artist. I did it on 99designs at the time, so someone did my cover for me. And then the format. I thought, well, I can do the format in myself. And then I read up about it. And then I was like no, no. And I saw the demo. They're like I'm like no, I am not, I am not doing this.
Speaker 2:I found someone to do it for me yeah, I don't have the time, I don't have the interest, and delegation, yeah, delegation.
Speaker 1:Self-publishing it's all about delegation. It's expensive.
Speaker 2:This is the thing as well, I pay people to do things yeah, because I was trying to work out, I must have made my. I'm sure I made my money back because it's been so long since I self-published I did, yeah, it was 2015.
Speaker 2:yeah, I did make whatever money. I put into it back like I broke even. And you know, every month I get a nice little email from what they call Amazon, except it was so funny it's going off on a tangent. This yesterday morning I got an email from Amazon KDP saying oh, your royalty's coming in and it's not much. It might be like 20 quid, but because of, I'm saying, ai on the Apple iPhone, it will summarize your emails for you so we can just look in at the preview and what it did. So normally it will give my account number in the subject headline, but on the summary it says all it says was Amazon royalty dollar sign. Then, literally, it said about 4 million. That's like 4 million.
Speaker 2:I woke up. That's like 4 million. I'm not getting far. That's why I let me look at this email. I'm like no, you've just taken. This is why AI is dangerous people. I'm like no, you've just taken the account number, whatever reference number it is, pull it in this in the summary and put a dollar sign in front of it. I would have loved to be receiving four million.
Speaker 1:that would have been and then you're retired oh yeah, then I would have just retired yeah, yeah, they do that, but they don't always get it right.
Speaker 2:Ai is just dangerous and scary well, how do you know when you're doing? Because you've got your magazine and stuff and you're talking to writers, you're surrounded by writers and the AI conversation comes up a lot, because obviously meta is stealing our stuff and what's going on with it? How do you deal with the people who will say I don't have a problem with it?
Speaker 1:that's a good question. I mean I, I think I say them it's a bit problematic and I tell them kind of why it's not great. I mean I was reading something I think it was some pop bitch which said that this um newspaper was taking uh press releases or like articles from other places, getting AI to rewrite them and publish them on the site really, and I was like that is just so problematic. I mean, first of all, people could be losing their jobs. Secondly, that's not journalism and it's not writing. I mean nobody should be reading that. That's just kind of like a content mill going around for advertising reasons. I mean I think there's a definitely an ethical question. I mean I'm not saying that I'm sure there's something AI is good for, but it's not the creative industries. Only human beings can be creative because only human beings have souls. You know that belongs to us, like machines cannot make art and they shouldn't be making art. But that's my opinion. So yeah, uh, you know it.
Speaker 2:Just there are just so many ways in which, like ai comes into play when it comes to the creative industry, because it's not even necessarily just about someone using ai to write their book, because even this not this morning, yesterday I think it was there's an article about the Chicago Sun-Times. They did their book recommendations, I think, for the summer, and all of the book recommendations are basically fake yeah, they're all fake new authors but with books they've never written.
Speaker 2:Yeah and yeah, and the thing is, no one's checked it either. So there's two, oh there's two, issues with it. You've got ai create people using ar to create content, and then the people who should be, like, the good gatekeepers, so your editors in the newspapers and stuff. They're not checking, they're just letting it go out there into the world until you get called out, called out on it.
Speaker 1:But that's the thing is like who can we trust now and what can we trust? That's a question we shouldn't have to ask ourselves when we're on social media, like you don't know what's real, you don't know what you don't, you don't even know there's a different government putting stuff out there. So social media can't really be trusted. So what should be you, what you should be able to trust, is journalism, proper journalism. You should be able to read something, know that it's been through various editors and a fact checker and a proofreader, because otherwise what is the point? You know, we need to be informed you think it's it's hard.
Speaker 2:It's hard because you feel like you've got a handle on it and then something new comes on. You're like what, what? Why is everything? I just listen. I just want to write my books, I just want to sell my books. I just want to make a nice living from my book and I would like it if no one stole my work. That's all I want. But if you can't even trust the newspaper to put out these are the books you should be reading for the summer. Get the content and they're not.
Speaker 1:I know, I just think matter. The thing is like they just took my book, was on that list and I think they said, oh, we can't pay everyone because we can't afford to, so we just paid no one and first of all, you can't afford it and secondly, you don't. People don't understand the basic right of copyright anymore. Kirsten was like he was in talks of ai. Like you cannot go into eight in talks of people using ai because you do not own our copyright care, it belongs to us. No one can negotiate about our books unless people pay us money to use our books and that's a full stop. You know.
Speaker 2:Anyway, it's so weird because, yeah, you know, we talk about full circle moments.
Speaker 2:I when I used to work at the BBC, so we're talking back in 2002 three I think it was a long time ago and I was working. The department I worked in was called Talent Rights Group, which was basically dealing with when we sold the programs overseas. It was making sure we had all the copyright in place before we sold the programs off overseas and then, when we did sell the programs off overseas, making sure that everyone who I don't know who had um some kind, had some kind of interest in the program maybe you were an actor or you were the producer you got paid for it. So I remember the amount of times I'd get phone calls from some background actor and it's like I've been paid for this show. I was in like 15 years ago. I've just got a check. I'm like, yeah, that's your check because we sold it to the Philippines.
Speaker 1:So and that's a great thing. You know, that's a great, it's a great thing.
Speaker 2:So to go from that and I say that's in 2003, so it's over 20 years, so in just over 20 years to go to this point in time when there are, I'm saying, entities and companies and governments, and to just feel like, no, you shouldn't be paid for whatever work you did, you shouldn't be you're, you're right, your copyright should not be protected. It's just, it's infuriating, it's really infuriating and we're nothing without art. We're nothing without books speaking of books, catherine, how did it feel the first time you held your book in your hands?
Speaker 1:You know I don't think anything compares to that moment, no, it's. You know it takes so long to get there and it's just, it's just. It's such a high, it's just. I mean it's kind of on an equivalent and I'm not saying it's equivalent of like when they place my son on my chest, it's not, it's. I'm not comparing it entirely to that, but it's a very similar dopamine high. It's like I created this, I'm holding this, it's out in the world. It is. That's the moment where it becomes worth it, like all of the pain, all of the suffering, all of the waiting, all of the rejection. I mean, when you get that high, I really I think you're kind of chasing that high again over and over. I think and it's the same thing of acting is that when you get apart, there's that high and it just, it's honestly just nothing like it.
Speaker 2:It's like, and also it's a continuous moment. I think with the book it is, but you have that moment of you know, when you you see it for the first time, whether it's a proof copy or that final copy, but also when people are responding to your book and it could be a book even, like when people still respond to the jigsaw man and that book came out four years ago now, I think, yeah, and I'll still get emails people you know they discovered it for the first time and they discovered the characters. You're like, oh my god, like it still has meaning, if that's the right word, but it's yeah, it still, it still has something and it's still it, yeah, it gives a good reaction.
Speaker 1:So that's always, that's always a good feeling when it's out there, I mean when people because my book's actually got good reviews and then I've done some book clubs as well and when you're talking to someone about a book that you wrote and it resonated with them and they liked it. Honestly, I just there's just nothing that's comparable to that. Just it means that's a world to me, just connecting with people. Or when you write something and it means something to someone or it teaches them something or it makes them happy. It's just, it's yeah, it's a complete high.
Speaker 2:It's just amazing so, catherine, do you want to tell people about the new book when the Light is Hottest?
Speaker 1:Yep, where the Light is Hottest is about Natasha. She is an actress. She's gone from small-town Scotland to big-time Hollywood. She is right at the top of her game and people are trying to bring her down. It follows her from the beginning of her journey to become a successful actor and then so it's your timeline and then you also see them like trying to bring her down and how hard it is to stay at the top. It's like very true to life. So I was an actor for over 10 years.
Speaker 1:I was also like a director, a producer. I worked at E-League Studios for a while, so it's very real, very true. It's kind of it's got glamour, it's got the Me Too movement, it's got female friendship. It's got toxic female friendship as well. So, yeah, I think it's had a really good reception. I went to, I did an offer talk last week and the librarian said she'd been telling everybody it was like Taylor Jenkins and comparing me to Taylor Jenkins and I almost fainted. So, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:I've got two questions for you following on from that. Did you face any challenges in writing your book?
Speaker 1:um, I did. First of all, I had to make it readable, not only for my husband but for everybody else as well, and, uh, I think also it's. I had to think what to put in it and what not to put in it, because being an actor is a very tough profession, but being a female, an actress, it's kind of it's. It's quite.
Speaker 1:It can be quite exploitive as well yeah but I wanted to make it like really true to life. I wanted to tell a very real story, but I also believe in joy and happiness, so I thought I wanted to make it kind of glamorous and happy and kind of take people on this journey. So I think it was hard getting the tone of it right and also making it exciting enough to read. And then, yeah, so I think just making it kind of the best book that it was took me quite a while, but mostly because of I was scared to let it go. I was scared to kind of put it out there in the world, because I think it was Picasso who said art is never finished, only abandoned.
Speaker 2:So I kind of had to abandon it and just kind of put it out there and, yes, thankfully I managed it you know, I think it's such a challenge, though I think, for so many people, if you're a creative person, just getting out of your own head, yeah, you have to go out of our own way, could you? You can spend so much time thinking, oh my god, what is? What are people going to think about this? And you're so concerned about the response and taking it as a critique on you personally that you don't. You never put the work out. So it's such a big job just to get out of our own way it is and it's brave.
Speaker 1:You know, I am my ex-vicar now actually he's retired. Ian Tatum, he's really talented, he's a poet and he does, he writes lots of great stuff and he's like, oh, I haven't really sent any of my stuff out and I insisted that he did and hopefully he'll hear this, um, and I insisted that he did, and then as soon as he the first poem he ever sent out, he got it published and I said to him like, if you don't like send your stuff out, you're not a writer and I know me, I don't, I know me. I don't actually want to say that because, if you're right, you're a writer, but you have to send your stuff out. And it's terrifying, it is really scary. Yeah, you know, they're like your babies, my. I call my, them, my book babies, and they are my babies. They're part of you, they're my babies, they're part of you, they are.
Speaker 2:They're my babies. Yeah, you put blood, sweat and tears into them. They are a part of you. So when you have to let it go, you are. It takes a lot.
Speaker 1:It does, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So if you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters, whom would you choose and why?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's such a good question. Oh, that's such a good question. Oh, that's such a good question. Um, I think, oh, I think, natasha definitely spend time with Natasha, but also maybe Claudia, because Claudia is really fun. So Claudia is, um, her friend from drama school. She has two friends from drama school, scarlett and Claudia. Claudia is really fun and full of joy, but I think also natasha. Natasha would be fun as well. Oh, it's such a. Which one should I go for? Okay, I'll just go for natasha. I'll. She's a main character, she's a man, she's got the main character energy. I'll go for natasha all right.
Speaker 2:So, catherine, final set of questions are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:you know, I think everyone gives the same answer, which is not lately, not lately, not lately the extroverts have been coming out.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's really yeah, last year interviews I'm like, oh, an extrovert okay that's exciting, I mean everybody's, I think act.
Speaker 1:Um, writers are by nature quite introverted, but I think I can be extroverted. I think I really love I think of myself as a sociable introvert, where I really love people and I can actually be really good in a social situation. Uh, I think can be good doing an offer talk. I really love people and I can actually be really good in a social situation. Uh, I think can be good doing an offer talk. I really love people, I love talking to people, I love connecting with people. So I think my love of people makes me a lot more outgoing.
Speaker 2:But then I'm like, yeah, I need to just go read a book now okay, so what challenge or experience, good or bad, in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:um, it's another good question, I think, um, my lockdown was probably the thing that most shaped me. I had the most intense kind of COVID lockdown. So it started with an atopic pregnancy. I needed emergency surgery, for then I got pneumonia. On the year of state, in 2020, I got double pneumonia. I was going in and out of hospital, um, and I know this all sounds really sad, but it's like a long time ago. And then, uh, and then I had a miscarriage, so all of this horrible stuff happened, but, but, but then I ended up with a rainbow baby and a book deal.
Speaker 1:So it's it's the year that stopped me. I don't want to I'm not going to swear on your podcast, but it's the year that made me stop caring about anything that didn't matter, because it made me incredibly tough and it made me kind of made me realize that life is just too short, because I basically almost died, like I came around from the surgery and like we got that just in time. So I almost died twice, first from the the topic pregnancy and then from the pneumonia. They also said we weren't sure you're going to make it. So I almost died twice in one year and then I ended up the other side of it with um, a baby and a book deal.
Speaker 1:So you know what? I thought I can handle anything. Now it's like I once did um sketch comedy the funny woman awards and I bombed so badly like the room was like silent and then people were laughing but not with me at me and I thought, oh god, I'm now invincible. Like, well, if you can get through that invincible, yeah, it's like I'm invincible now and like I don't care about things that don't matter. And also any joy, any happiness. I celebrate to the hilt like any, any excuse to get out some champagne. I'm there. So, yeah, I think that's the thing that will shape me right.
Speaker 2:So if you could go back to when you're 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:now being 20 is the hardest thing, I think. I think it's such a tough decade. Anyone who's listening to this and you're in your 20s like have like a virtual hug for me, I mean it's. I mean like you're living, you're living in house shares, it's like all of this stuff is happening and when I was 25, my life, I felt like my life was like a mess. I was like doing um, doing acting jobs. I was writing for some sites, doing future reviews, and I felt like my life had no like center um, and I think I'd go back then and say you know what, it's gonna be fine, um, you're gonna find your way.
Speaker 1:Because I was just like in this kind of state of despair actually, because I felt like embarrassing again. I felt like I was really old. I was like I'm halfway to 30, I'm so and then. But 25 was like a really turning point for me. I actually met my husband when I was. I think I met him when I was 25. Ooh, I think I met him when I was 25. But it's kind of like it was a turning year for me. But when I became 25, I was like my life's a mess. I'm so old now I haven't properly made it and yeah. So I just said to myself you know what? It's fine, don't worry, just keep going, just keep going, just keep going persevere okay.
Speaker 2:So, catherine, what is your non-writing tip for writers?
Speaker 1:it is go outside and go for a walk. It's also meet up with your writing friends like complain as much as you want in your writing groups, but just take your mind off publishing and do a lot of self-care yeah yeah, I think that's that's it.
Speaker 2:And finally, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:so I'm kind of on all of the sites. I'm on TikTok and X um. It's at Balavage, which is B-A-L-A-V-A-G-E, I know it's. It's a confusing surname. It's Lithuanian. It's my grandmother's surname. I'm on Instagram and Fred's at Frostbank, and I'm on Blue Sky. It's Catherine BY and I have a website which is CatherineBalavageYardleycom. So, yeah, a bit of a social media. You're still in that word yourself. I filled in the blank in my head. Yeah, you did, uh, but I'm there and I'm, I'm there and I'm really friendly.
Speaker 2:Um, just yeah you are really friendly, and that just leaves me, catherine Yardley, to say thank you so much for being part of the conversation oh, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:I've listened to every episode and I think you're amazing. You're an amazing writer, you're an amazing person, and what you do for the writing community is also amazing. So it's a privilege and an honour to be interviewed. Oh, you're going to make me cry now, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
