The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
Finalist -Independent Podcast Awards 2024
*music: the coffee jam ©stereo_jam
The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Mel Pennant: Embracing The Writer and Imperfect Timing
What does it take to find your creative voice in a world that often pushes you toward the practical? In my conversation with debut author Mel Pennant, we explore the winding path that led to her debut novel "A Murder for Miss Hortense" , a journey spanning decades of creative exploration, professional balancing acts, and the courage to tell stories that authentically represent her community.
Mel shares how she maintained her creative practice alongside a demanding legal career, describing writing as her "hideaway place" that provided balance when life's other aspects felt constraining.
Whether you're a writer seeking inspiration, a reader hungry for fresh perspectives in crime fiction, or simply someone who appreciates stories of creative perseverance, this conversation offers wisdom that transcends the page.
Retired nurse, avid gardener, renowned cake maker and fearless sleuth Miss Hortense has lived in Bigglesweigh, a quiet Birmingham suburb, since she emigrated from Jamaica in 1960. She takes great pride in her home, starching her lace curtains bright white, and she can tell if she's been short-changed on turmeric before she's even taken her first bite of a beef patty. Thirty-five years of nursing have also left her afraid of nobody - be they a local drug dealer or a priest - and an expert in deciphering other people's secrets with just a glance.
Miss Hortense uses her skills to investigate the investments of the Pardner network - a special community of Black investors, determined to help their people succeed. But when an unidentified man is found dead in one of the Pardner's homes, a Bible quote noted down beside his body, Miss Hortense's long-buried past comes rushing back to greet her, bringing memories of the worst
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I don't know how it will feel when I get to publication day and, like you know, there's other people reading my books and you know it's just, it's really strange and it kind of starts, just, you know, an idea from you in your head. It doesn't exist. And then it's this other thing which, yeah, I'm kind of just at the beginning of that journey but I'm kind of in awe of already.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to another episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've been enjoying this fantastic bumper week of the Conversation, because on Monday I had a coffee break with New York Times bestselling author SA Cosby, where we spoke about his new book, king of Ashes. On Tuesday, I was in conversation with author Lola Akumadi, whose novel Bitter Honey is out now, and today I'm in conversation with debut author Mel Pennant and her novel A Murder for Miss Hortense, which is a cozy crime mystery featuring this fantastic nurse called Miss Hortense, is out today and if you haven't got your copy, please go and get your copy and support Mel Pennant. And in our conversation, mel and I talk about embracing the right to identity, creating her character, miss Hortense, and the importance of patience and self-love in this writer's life. Now, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Mel Pennant, welcome to the Conversation, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Right, my first question for you is and I'm going to hold it up because I feel like I have to, because it's my proof copy and I'm sorry it's got a tea stain on it, but um, how excited are you about your debut novel, a Murder for Miss Hortense, and I feel like I need to say in a Grenadier accent, miss Hortense?
Speaker 1:I'm so excited. I think, firstly, I should say I'm super excited to be on this podcast because it's like one of my milestones. So I've been listening to you for a very, very long time and even preparing, you know like a very early. You know like what what's it going to be like when the dean interviews me? Not that I thought you know it would happen, but it was just like if I you know, this is like one of my amazing moments. So firstly, thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're so welcome and that's so cool, like brilliant, brilliant, and I love the podcast and I loved everything you're doing and I think it's really important. It creates a lot of transparency in the space, which I think is really important and has been really really helpful for me. So, thank you. And then, yeah, I'm just super excited, so I've got Miss Hortense next to me too, um, and yeah, it's like it's a bit like a dream, um, it's very surreal, uh, it's. Yeah, it's like you know I'm having to pinch myself all the time, but it's wonderful.
Speaker 2:How long have you wanted it?
Speaker 1:You know, it's a really interesting question because I think I've always been like a storyteller from a child. I've always sort of created stories in my mind and done lots of daydreaming. I was that child that was quite reserved and you know people probably thought like why isn't she talking? But actually I had all this stuff going on in my head. I was very happy. I had my characters um whole lives, you know, and I so I feel like I've I've been a storyteller and created stories since I can ever remember. But I never thought I'm going to write a novel. I never thought that's my future, I'm going to be a novelist, I'm going to be a writer.
Speaker 1:I trained as a lawyer and it was while I was training that I was just thinking I need something more creative in my life. Training that I was just thinking I need something more creative in my life. I just um. I think you know, when you're sort of at the beginning of a career, I think you kind of think, oh my gosh, there's a, there's only a right way and a wrong way. So you know, it's very like straight and like I'll get this right, and I felt like I needed something else in my life and I did, um, lots of exploring. So I um was opposite um Central Saint Martins when I was training. So I did loads of evening classes in like tailoring and like painting and pottery or whatever they did, and I did a writing class. I was just hooked.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh my gosh, just something connected again, I think from being that child and you know telling those stories in my head and and I just loved it just something connected with me. And I think, maybe because I was in this other space where for me at that time it was like there's a right and a wrong and you can't step out of that and there's a particular style. And then there's this other world where I could just say and do and be whatever and it was coming from my gut and I just loved it. And so I think ever since then I got the bug and I was like I've got, I need this in my life. So from doing that I did lots of short courses. Um, when I had my first child I was like, right, this is my chance to kind of really kind of immerse myself in this world. So I signed myself up for a master's in creative writing because you know, when you're pregnant. You're like. You know I'll have the baby, but I have nine months to do.
Speaker 2:Like anything, I want to do a master's and I was, and actually I did it in was it?
Speaker 1:I signed up for it in Bath so I thought I'm gonna um at the weekends, I'm just gonna go to Bath for like the courses and then I'm gonna come back and you know, it'll be fine with a little baby. I don't know what I was thinking and I couldn't do it basically.
Speaker 2:I did it twice and I was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:So then I did, um, uh, a more local creative writing class in screenwriting, um, at the London College of Communication, and I did that part-time and I think I just knew if I can keep all these courses in my life, if I can just keep um, you know, allowing it to be a part of what I'm doing, it was. I just saw that it was really good for my well-being, um, and I naturally gravitated towards playwriting, um, I think that's because the first course that I did was in playwriting, the one in Bath, but I also found that it was a world that I really enjoyed and so, yeah, so I started doing playwriting, entering competitions, finding kind of peers and people that I could kind of engage with in the space, and yeah, and then started writing in that space, but again, never thought I'd write a novel. I mean, maybe, like everyone says, oh yeah, I'll write a novel one day, but never really thought that that would be me.
Speaker 2:And then just some things happened which sort of got me in the space and kind of, yeah, here I am you know, it's so interesting, like if you speak to any of the baby lawyers who have done a course with me or I've just taught over the last, when I've been doing it for, I think, 10 more, 11 years, and you speak to any of them, they will always tell you that I always say to them make sure that you find something else outside of this, outside of being a lawyer, because it's like you said, it's very black and white the law. You know it's black and white, it's good and bad, right and wrong. And I was thinking, you know how there's always like a house style in terms of you know the law firms and how you present your letters and things like that. In terms of you know the law firms and how you present your letters and things like that. It's like the house style extends to you as a person and so it becomes all consuming.
Speaker 2:So I say to them find something outside of this, find something creative. If you go mountain climbing, just do something else, because this can't just be it. I know it's your job and it's what you want to do, but this just can't be it. There needs to be something else and I think it's your job and you just what you want to do, but this just can't be it. There needs to be something else.
Speaker 2:And it's like I think it's really good that you've found that and like recognize that so early on like before you burned out, because same you know so many lawyers, I know like burn, burn out completely yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true.
Speaker 1:And I have conversations. I have conversations with um junior lawyers in the space now and they're like oh, you know, I did writing, you know, in uni, or I did it here, but I'm not going to do it now, I'm going to wait, or I'm you know, I'm putting that to one side. Or my family sort of said don't do. And I'm like you should not do that. You should try and incorporate whatever you love into your life, don't like wait for some perfect time to kind of engage in the spaces that you love, because that time won't come and no one's going to give you the time, so you have to kind of. You know, if it's and I think it's it really helps you then to be better in all parts of your life, whether that's in your professional day job, um, in your family life, whatever it is. If you're pursuing something that that really gives you joy. It kind of just permeates everywhere.
Speaker 1:And you know I don't, you know it's hard. That juggle, that balance of doing everything is really, really hard, and I don't know that I've perfected it. But I do know that I have no regrets about making writing a part of my life because it's integral to me and I know that when I'm not doing it I'm not a very nice person to be around. I'm just, I have to do it, I have to kind of um, I have to just. You know, and maybe you know, as I say, I've done it since I was a child, you know, imagining characters, hearing their voices. So it's a part of me and I'm really pleased that I found, you know, early. You know, this was in my 20s when I sort of got back into writing.
Speaker 2:I'm really pleased that I found it then because I think it's really helped me, as I say, in all walks of my life yeah, it's um, I think a couple of weeks ago I think it was about maybe two, three weeks ago I wrote this article on my sub stack and it was basically because I don't, and I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard it, whether it was on a podcast or I was watching something on tv and someone could have been a film, and someone said do you have a joyful hobby? And I'm sitting there thinking like, do I have a joyful hobby? Like I. I didn't think, I couldn't think of anything.
Speaker 2:And my best friend came around, um saying, literally like half an hour after, that question was like percolating in my head and I asked her. I said do you have a joyful hobby? And she said. And then she said to me well, you have a joyful hobby, you're writing. And I said, nah, my writing's become my work, that's become my job now. And then we're talking about all the things that I was used to in the past and that she was doing in the past. Like she used to like make, do, making jewelry, so that was her joyful hobby. And then I remembered that I used to paint and I thought, yeah, I used to paint. I was like I'm gonna go back and do that. So do you consider writing to be your job now, or is it still your joyful hobby? And if it isn't your joyful hobby, do you have something else that's replaced it? That's like three questions in one. Someone's supposed to do that.
Speaker 1:It's all really good questions so I think in in answering this question, I sort of think about the reflections that I've had recently, I think, as my writing has become more public, in the sense I'm becoming now a published author. I've had to kind of I think I always need to see writing as my side hustle and as my kind of secret thing, and so I wouldn't call myself a writer. And if people asked me about my writing, I'd like engage with them and have conversations with them. But it wasn't how I started the conversation. I didn't walk into a room and someone said oh, what do you do? I'd say, oh, I'm a writer.
Speaker 1:But as I've moved more into this kind of world and this more published author world, I kind of have to acknowledge that, and I have to acknowledge it in other spaces as well. So my day job, you know, now people will probably google me and see that I come up as a writer. So yeah, that's what I am, um, but for a long time I saw it as a bit of a side hustle and my thing, and actually that was really good because it was like my hideaway place. So if something wasn't going right in one space, then I've got this other space that no one knows about, that's giving you know, and then, if that's not going to well, I'll come back to this, and so you know, I enjoyed managing that space in that way, but now I do embrace the fact that I'm a writer as well, as, you know, the other things that I do.
Speaker 1:I'm really proud of it and I think again, just kind of reflecting on where it came from, actually I've developed both of my careers at the same time. They've both grown together and I hadn't really acknowledged that before, whereas now I do, and I think actually they've both been really important in my life and for each other, which again is, I think, important now for me to acknowledge, which again is, I think, important now for me to acknowledge I don't have any other really hobbies and I don't. Is writing a job, was your question? It's funny because now, well, my writing has always been about deadlines, because if I don't have a deadline, I don't do my writing. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I would just. I would you know, if I didn't have a deadline, probably for this book, it wouldn't, I wouldn't have written you know everything.
Speaker 2:I always say that. I said that to my editor. Give me a deadline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, otherwise I won't, I won't, you know, it won't get done. And so for me, kind of early on in my career, having, like competitions, the deadlines I've got to just I've just got to get this thing done because there's a competition deadline, I've got to get it in, so get it done. So deadlines have very much been a part of my writing process and have really helped me. Um, now obviously I have, you know, deadlines, but again, if I didn't have them, that you know, the writing wouldn't happen. So for me that doesn't necessarily move into sort of a place that I'm unhappy with because that's been my process, so it doesn't feel like a job.
Speaker 1:No, I guess I really enjoy being in the spaces. You know, there are always those moments where you're like I've got no idea what I'm doing, I can't do this, it's rubbish, I don't. You know I've got. You know, I'm a bit in that space of a play that I'm writing at the minute. I don't know how to write a play, I don't know what I don't know. Um, and you have those moments and you know I feel like I'm wasting lots of time angsting about stuff. Um, but I really enjoy the space. It's still my happy space and I don't really have you know it's interesting still my happy space and I don't really have.
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting. What other hobbies do I have? I don't really. You know I watch TV, you know whatever, but not no.
Speaker 2:It's such a you know, it was such an interesting question, and especially when I started thinking about it, because I'm like, as I said, writing was always, that was always my hobby, that was always the thing that I did. But when you start to think about it maybe not think about it so hard, just you know, while you're all sitting there watching trash tv, you'll find that you'll be like, actually I do like doing these other things and maybe these are just my, these are extra parts of me. But it was interesting, you know, when you're saying about all the angst you have as a writer. I was in an event yesterday and someone I can't remember exactly what the question was, something along the angst you have as a writer.
Speaker 2:I was in an event yesterday and someone I can't remember exactly what the question was, something along the lines of you know how's it feel when you're starting a book. And I said I have the same response every time. I sit in front of the computer, open up a blank document on Scrivener and start, even though I may have written a plan and always write a plan, but I look at the document and I'm like, how am I going to do this? Like, how do I write a book. I don't know how to write a book. I can't do this again and I just think sometimes it's just part of the process. You have to go through all these mental gymnastics to get you to write that first line yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm exactly the same and I think, think actually it can be positive in many ways, because you're not, you're coming with a fresh slate and you're therefore you're. For me, it's then getting back to the basics. You know, like I can actually what is it that I want to convey here and how am I going to do that? And you know, sometimes I might even consult a structure book or a storybook or something like that to kind of help me, to kind of think again about you know what is, what is it I'm trying to achieve? And so actually that is really helpful for me. It takes time and it feels a bit like, oh my goodness, I'm starting again.
Speaker 2:But there is something important about that process as well um, that I think um is is um, really important. So when did you get used to calling yourself a writer? Because I can't remember like it took me a really long time to stop responding that I'm a lawyer whenever people ask me what I did. It just took me. I don't think I started calling myself or saying I'm a writer first until the binding room came out, so that would have been like 2022. Yeah, 2022. Paperback was in 2023 and that's when I'd be like oh yeah, I'm a writer and a lawyer, but it took a really long time for me to get there yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:For me, um, I think probably the same. So I've sort of been writing for about 20 years, but, as I say, um I it's only recently that I've sort of interrogated that bit and actually sort of admitted yeah, this is, this is something that's important to me. It's not a side hustle, it's not like even a hobby, it's like actually really integral to me. Um, I think it really helps when you've got other people calling you writers so you know my, my book calls me a writer.
Speaker 1:Um, you know I'll go to and someone will say Mel Pennant, the author you know. So you hear it said back to you and I think you hear it enough times and you begin to see it for yourself so now I pretty much feel like a writer and an author and I'm really happy to lead with that.
Speaker 1:Actually, um, you know, it's becoming a lawyer was really important to me because I was the kind of the first lawyer, the first person in my family to kind of become a lawyer. So it came with all this prestige, you know, and actually being in spaces and sort of saying, oh, I'm a lawyer. Then seeing people who might assume that you wasn't that for whatever reason, you know, it's really it was really interesting for me to kind of, you know, just be, like oh yes, so you know exactly. So I am, I made it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, um, so I've worn that title with a lot of pride, um, but also, like your family, carries it with pride because, like my mum and my oh god mum and dad, anyone who would listen, and my grandmother anyone, my grandparents, all of them anyone would listen. Oh yes, nadine, she's a lawyer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. It's exactly all of that. And um, as I say, it probably, you know, has previously added a bit of weight where because I'm quite a um, shy, retiring sort of person, reserved person, so you know, you say that and people might look at you slightly differently yeah, which is interesting, you know, which is interesting within itself, I think, um, but so now I say writer, and it's really interesting to see how people then assess you, and sometimes I say writer and lawyer and depending on who I'm saying that to, they will latch on to whatever they feel is the most important, you know oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think I've ever been like consciously aware of anyone responding more to one title than the other if I've said both, and I think it all depends in the circles that you're running in, basically when you get that response yeah, I can.
Speaker 1:I a few, maybe a couple of years ago I met someone who I hadn't seen in many years, who was like a friend of the family and I'd met them at like a writing sort of event. So it was really weird to see them in that event and it was like amazing. It's like, oh, that's brilliant, I'm seeing them. And then, you know, so I was like the child. They knew me as like a little girl. So I said, oh, you know I'm, I'm a writer and a lawyer. And in that space they latched on to the lawyer oh, you're a lawyer, you know. Because that obviously meant something in that space to them which was interesting. Um, yeah, and I like the doctor, and they'll be like a couple of days ago, and what do you do? And I say I'm a writer and a lawyer, and the doctor latched on to oh, you're a lawyer, where do you do? And the writer, stuff just went like so it's interesting it is.
Speaker 2:It's so interesting because, I mean, I think my only comparison is like one of my aunts, I think one of my great aunts. As far as she's concerned, me going to work means me going to court. That's what she understands as work. And if I don't call her and I need to call her actually if I don't call her in a while, and then she then speaks to my mum or my dad, in between, the calls um and my mum go oh no, nads have been, she's been busy. You know writing. You know she's working. She's writing what work, what work? Right, writing's not work. That's that's not work. Because she in her head, going to work, is going to court me sitting at my desk writing a book, even though she's got copies of the books, so I send her copies of the book. That's not work to her yeah, that's so interesting.
Speaker 1:It's a bit around that space as well. Like my working week, like, for example, today, my son will say to me oh, are you going to work, mummy? You know? So work means going into the office. Basically, work does not mean being at home. If I'm at home, I'm not working, you're so so it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, you know he knows that I could, because you can do your day job working from home as well. But just this I think you have. You know, my experience is you have to fight a little bit to sort of say actually writing is work, it is work and it is work. It's like hard work. But you know, I'm I've sort of changed the way that I work now, so I'm now part, part-time and there is a bit of a sense of when I'm doing my day job, that's work, but when I'm at home, you know that's, that's not work, which is not. I feel like I do still work full-time. But well, you do, yeah, I do. But trying to sort of convey that message is a little bit difficult for some people, um, to to kind of get that. But it's hugely helpful that I can. I have something to show for it. I can say I've got a book, um you know this is my work, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:I feel really privileged in that sense, in that there is like physical stuff that I can point to and say, actually, yeah, I'm a writer and this is the work that has been acknowledged, you know, and you know, etc. Etc. And not every writer has that. So it's quite difficult when you're in that stage where you're not published or you're, you know, you haven't got any plays on, to sort of assert your space and sort of say I am a writer, you know, this is what I do. I think that can be quite difficult. Um, so I feel privileged to sort of be in the space where I can at least sort of say respect me, I'm, you know, I'm a writer, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think a big part of that is learning. It's learning to like, set boundaries, like for yourself, because I have to do it when I start, because when I stop going to court and even I do I do other things. That means I do have to leave the house, like, and go and teach, but those moments when I'm home, I have to set boundaries for myself. So I do have to use all these out. You know focus apps that I've just been ignoring on my computer and on my phone. So I'll do. I will set the do not disturb up between. I think I set up between nine o'clock and um lunch time, so you're not, unless it's an emergency, you're not going to get through to me because I'm I'm working, because when I didn't have those boundaries in place, all and sundry's calling me, messaging me, or they're just popping around like I'm not free, like I have things to do. This is maybe your um. You know this is your spare time, but it's not my spare time. This is my working time yeah, that's, it's really important.
Speaker 1:I think the other thing is, um, writing can be really intense and when it, you know, there are certain points, um, in the writing process, I think, when I will find any distraction at all, you know, not to confront the thing, that I really need to kind of sit down and do um, and so making sure that you're kind of creating those spaces and sticking to them is so important, um, because otherwise it's, it's really difficult.
Speaker 2:It is your family creative. I always think that and this is sound. Probably I shouldn't make assumptions and stuff, but I just feel like when you come from a West Indian family, that there's such a strong oh I say history of storytelling amongst us and and music, like all of that. It's such a strong part of who we are that I just thought of course you've got to say yes, there's creativity in your family yeah, yeah, um, definitely, but not in the way that you know.
Speaker 1:We don't have any sort of um or not, to my knowledge, um, in my immediate family, people who've sort of written books or anything like that, but, as you say, a huge storytelling tradition, and I was raised for much of my childhood by my grandparents, and both sets of grandparents have been really involved in my life and my dad's parents looked after me while I was younger, so I was esteemed in that and it's not like it's not like sit down now that, and it's not like it's not like sit down now. I'm going to tell you a story. It's embedded in everything, everything that you do. You know um, the humor, the light, the kind of you know when they're calling you from, you know wherever you are or whatever. You know it's all there and it's just, it's, it's lovely. I just you know now, because you know a lot of um, my grandparents generations have died away and are I. I want it, you know, I want that and I don't have it anymore, but it's just, oh, it just is just. I just yeah, it's so amazing um, I was really fortunate, I, I think, to be, to grow up in that environment and to see it all around me.
Speaker 1:And then, you know, I I had an aunt who was a brilliant singer and was sort of involved in a band. My mom is hugely creative and also sings and, you know, was always looking for creative outlets. I feel like, for the generation just above me, my parents' generation, it felt like they were discouraged from entering their creative pursuits, is my sense. So, you know, my mum was driven into a particular limited kind of career path, um, and wasn't given the opportunities.
Speaker 1:I think that I've had to kind of explore all sorts of different paths, um, and I've been really fortunate to have parents and grandparents who just willed me to be the best anything I could be, so they never sort of said you have to be this or at anything I could be, so they never sort of said you have to be this or you have to do this. They were always just, you know you doing the best you can do in the space, particularly my dad. He'd always be like you, you know you the best, which was great. He really pushed me and my sister in that space. It never felt, though, like oppressive. It felt like you've got to use, use them. Are you using them to the best of your abilities. So, um, having all of that in my life I think has just been been been brilliant and um, yeah, as you say, I think it, you know it's all around, it was all around me as a child, which you know.
Speaker 2:It's just yeah amazing yeah, because it is exactly like we like. What you say is that it's not anyone like my auntie or uncles or my granddad sitting there saying to me okay, nadine, let me tell you the story back in 1953. Let me tell you about the tree. Ain't nothing like that. It would be like I'm cooking or I'm with my grandmother in the kitchen and they're cooking. She's cooking something she's like. Well, this is how we would start to cook. You'd get tree stones, put it outside, put your pot outside and that, and that is them telling the story. But in terms of them telling you the story of how they would cook outside, it's telling you the story of how they grew up and how community was involved in cooking. So that is how they tell stories. And even when I think about my parents, I don't think about well, just family. Like my mum, she was a dancer growing up, so we got pictures of her in her outfits with her dance group, and my dad was always training the guitar and then my uncle was in a band. So it's as well. As well as having that, I know he said it's not oppressive, but they do want you to be secure, which is why they do urge you to have a career, but they're still. You know, this is still who you are, this is still where you come from this community, instead of music and storytelling and carnival and all of these things. So I think it's great.
Speaker 2:Can I say something you know of your book. So when I was, obviously I was on Google because you have to. I wasn't stalking you, I was doing my research and I went on your website and obviously I've seen this book cover because I have the UK cover. And then I saw the US cover and I don't know if you have a favourite and I love I do love this cover. But then when I saw the US cover, I was like, oh God, miss Hortense and I keep saying Miss Hortense, miss Hortense is walking on dominoes and just seeing the dominoes, because I just have flashbacks to being young, being sent up to bed on a Friday night but my dad's downstairs with his cousins and his brothers and his friends. All you're hearing is dominoes slamming on the table, key domino. Or, if I go to Grenada, they're playing dominoes outside the shop and it's such a strong part of, like, I think, all West Indian households. So when I saw the cover, I was like, look at her walking on dominoes. I love it.
Speaker 1:I love, you know, I love both of the covers. I think both of them capture the character of Miss Hortense and, you know, thank you so much for reading the book. You'll know, I think, you know, I know her. I think many people sort of yeah, I know who Miss Hortense is.
Speaker 2:I think that's what I said in my quote. I'm like I know everyone in this book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, miss Hortense is a complex character. You know, know she doesn't take any nonsense. She's got somewhere to be, you know she's, you know fearless, driven she's all of this and I feel like both book covers actually really capture that sense of her um and yeah, um, yeah, I, I, I adore both of them actually, like really really do.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I've had fantastic artists on both sides of you know, in the US and here really kind of get the essence of her, which I think is important. And I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking at the book and talking about it at the same time it feels like a person doesn't it?
Speaker 1:It's. This is like, this is me, it's a part of me. Yeah, exactly it's, yeah, it's. It's really funny. I was thinking about a funny story to tell you, actually when I was coming on here.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, you have the unboxing of the proof, so, um, so, first of all, you know, you've got all these moments in sort of the book world which, when you're not in the book world, you're like what is she unboxing? Is that her real book? I don't know. So I think I almost didn't really understand that when I was unboxing it too. So obviously there'll be another unboxing, I suppose, when I get the proper. Yeah, so I'll do that. Um, but you know, you watch all these Instagram feeds and you know this is what you do when you unbox your book, basically.
Speaker 1:So I got everyone my family, my kids, my husband all upstairs. We were all going to unbox this book together and I've been told by my publishers they were sending this box of books. So we got a box, which was brilliant. So we all went upstairs with this box and I started unboxing it. It and you know, everyone was taking pictures and whatever. I was unboxing it, unboxing it, and then I took out this, this book, which had a completely different title to the book that was my book, and it was like very shabby and I'd forgotten, actually, that I'd ordered a secondhand book and this was the secondhand book. You know, there's a moment where you're like, you know, it goes to all these people that you talk about on this show. You're like, oh, maybe they just decided that, you know, they didn't, you know, or they changed the title. Oh, poor you. So there is another video of me like looking at this book, being like I don't know what to do with this.
Speaker 2:So it was, you know, it's just, um, yeah, it's, you'll have to share it one day, because I feel it's that moment of like. Did they change their mind? Like what exactly exactly? It's like, mark, because me and my UPS guy now we're now friends. So, mark, he was constantly just delivering like boxes to me so it could have been from um, you know that the publishers are sent, and the US publishers were sending books to me as well for me to sometimes to sign and then to send them back to the stays. So at one point he's like what is all this? It's like I'm here. So I was like oh'm, mark, I'm a writer because I wasn't. We've become friends now and bless him. Um, like the next time he came, he's like I bought your books and I've gone on holiday with them. So I thought that was really, that was really sweet.
Speaker 2:But yeah, the unboxing no one tells you what to do if an unbox. You just see these unboxing videos, you think, okay, I'll make, I'll make an unboxing video. And I think what the great thing is about them which I don't think, probably maybe it does come across is that, no matter how many times you've done an unboxing video, every time you do open up that box and you see your book, it still feels like it's the very, very first time it's ever happened to you. You're like oh, I made, I made this, I did this it's so.
Speaker 1:It's so strange, I think, the whole process you know right from the beginning. When you you kind of because you know you write your book, it's in your head, you've got your ideas, you get it onto a page, then you give it to someone to read and so that's an amazing, like gosh, you know someone's actually reading my words.
Speaker 1:Um, and you know so, one of the first people to read my words was now. So then by my agent. So then you're like, oh, you know someone's reading my book. It's like amazing. And then you go on submission and there are a number of other people reading your book.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh other people are reading your words. That's like amazing. And they're telling you about your book and you're like gosh, that's amazing, you know. And then, so you know, and I'm right at the beginning of my journey, so obviously these proofs have gone out and other people have started reading my books, including you, thank you very much indeed. So you know, that's amazing, um, and you know, I don't know how it will feel when I get to publication day and, like you know, there's other people reading my books and you know, it's just, it's really strange and it kind of starts, just, you know, an idea from you in your head. It doesn't exist.
Speaker 2:And then it's this other thing, um, which, yeah, I'm kind of just at the beginning of that journey, but I'm kind of in awe of already it's you know what, and I can't remember for the life of me where I saw it must have been on Instagram, but I don't think I was following it, so I'm not even sure how. I even saw A Murder for Miss Hortense and as soon as I saw it, I'm like I want it. It just sounds like a very arrogant and privileged thing to say, but I'm like I want it. I need to read this book because it's kind of like a two pronged thing. One is that I really just want to read it because it looks so good, it looks amazing.
Speaker 2:But then the other hand side of it is that this is another book by a black author and it's just telling a story. It's not fitting into, as far as I can tell and I'm making assumptions based on the cover it's not fitting into any kind of tropes about what black people should be writing, the sort of you know those those sort of books. It's just telling, it's just a story and it looks like it's going to be fun. It looks like cozy crime and these are the things we just like. So and it's like I need to support that. So it's like it's a two-pronged thing. So I said I don't know if I don't know who I emailed, I don't know who I messaged, and then I think at some point you're like no, you're gonna get. I was gonna ask if you want a copy.
Speaker 1:I'm like yes, I want a copy because you need to support I think, um, you know, as I say, I follow you, I read your books, I I'm, you know, in awe of you. I think, um, but I'm also conscious that, um, you know there aren't I don't that it sounds it's not the that. You know there aren't, I don't it sounds it's not the case. But you know there are limited Black authors in this genre and in this space, and so it's really helpful to see you and to see others, like Dorothy Coombs and Nicola Williams. You know, you have been the entry into this space for me, so it's like when I'm kind of speaking to you or going to an event or like whatever, you know, it's actually really important um, for me, um, because of you know what I've, where I've come from and what I'm seeing and how you guys have sort of opened doors, which I think is really really important, and so you know, thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:You know what? I'm not gonna cry. I want to get emotional. But you know, when I think about growing up and and obviously, like social media makes me, the big difference to the exposure you have, um, not only for me as a writer but also for readers, readers who look like you, readers who don't look like you seeing what else is out there. But when you think growing up, it it was so limited and, as I said, there was always seemed to just be one type of book and even though you may have been interested in reading romantic books or sci-fi or crime, you didn't see anyone who looked like you fitting into that space. So you just assumed, like, well, you know, they don't expect us to write these sort of books or be interested in even reading these sort of books, like publishers and the gatekeepers, well, they're not looking at us as an audience. So it's so nice to I can't remember what event it was, but I did.
Speaker 2:It might have been with Dorothy, but I did an event and like, halfway through the event I know it was at Brixton Library, that was it with um, nicola Williams and Nina and Stella, and halfway through I was thinking, oh my god, we're just here just talking about books and talking about us, and it's not a diversity panel, it's not a specialist.
Speaker 2:It's Black History Month. Let's put on a panel, because in february, you know, black history month is in october. It wasn't anything, there was nothing attached to it. It was just a panel launching nina's book and you've got three black women, one asian woman on the panel and it's just, and that's, that's just how it should be. So there shouldn't be anything attached to it. And I just thought this is a great moment, like I wrote about. I'm like I just love this moment because this is how it should be. So, which is why you know, seeing you write cozy crime with Miss Hortense in her bag, and literally I, just when I see her, I just think of those times walking up the market, when I say, being dragged up Defford Market with my mum and then bumping into like my grandmother or like one of my grandmother's friends, and that's how they are.
Speaker 1:And I'm so pleased that you have connected with the book in that way, I think, because that is what I want and I kind of didn't set out to write a particular book or to you know be, I just wanted to write the story that I knew, you know, I felt it, it was familiar to me. Um, it's been really interesting for people to say, oh, I didn't, I didn't, you know, I've never come across this world before.
Speaker 1:Um, I've never, you know, and for me it's just so normal, it's, it's lovely when I'm really pleased that I'm opening a door for some people, but for others you know, who particularly may come from sort of an Afro-Caribbean community or close-knit community for them to say, you know, actually I recognize it, you know, it really gives me heart because I feel like, okay, fine, you know, that's, that's, that's good. I hope I've drawn, um, you know, a good reflection of a community that you know I am so inspired by. So, you know, and it's fictional, I should say so, and you know, I think I always have to say you know, in this space that we're talking about, sometimes there's this sense oh, okay, so you've written this now, so then there doesn't need to be another cozy crime book.
Speaker 2:I always say it's like it seems like there's a one-in-one-out policy and it's like you won't have that anywhere else. So it shouldn't just be. Because you know Mel Pennant has written a cozy crime with Miss Hortense Doesn't mean that I don't know Sandra Cain, living in Dagenham, who comes from I don't know her family's from St Vincent, doesn't mean that she can't write another cosy crime novel and that can't then be out there in the market.
Speaker 1:There are multiplicity of stories by multiplicity of authors from all different backgrounds, and you know, and as I say, this is fiction, you know, so I would hate for that to be the case.
Speaker 1:you know, I think um you know, yeah, there's I have so much more to say in this space, but you know there are so many other stories and you know, etc. Etc. That can be said in all sorts of different spaces. Um, and I really hope that that you know this encourages other people as well to to write or pick up a pen if they haven't done before.
Speaker 2:So Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. Did Miss Hortense come to you first? Did you hear her before you started, or did the story come to you?
Speaker 1:Gina. So what's interesting is I knew, I knew who Miss Hortense had to be and she was a bit intimidating for me because she's not my. She's very different to me as a character. You know she is bold and you know she, you know, will speak her mind, whereas I am very much a people-pleaser. I'm sort of, you know, okay, you know, don't say that da-da-da, but she's not like that, she'll say whatever the hell she wants.
Speaker 1:So I found her quite an intimidating character to write initially, because I think I was a bit scared of doing her justice and maybe trying to almost um, pander, you know, and dumb down what I knew were her, were the kind of the characteristics of her, um, so my entry into Miss Hortense was actually through Blossom, um, who is like Miss Hortense's sidekick, she's like her foil, her Watson. Yeah, um, you, I could. Just, I just began to have so much fun with Blossom because she can say whatever she wants and she does. She doesn't doesn't have to be correct, she doesn't care if it's correct, she just needs to get it out. And then, as I was writing Blossom, then I could write Miss Hortense because I, you know, I knew what Miss Hortense's reaction would be to Blossom and I could kind of then step into Miss Hortense. So I kind of did it that way, like the character of Miss Hortense was first, but I didn't. I couldn't get her voice until I had sort of explored the world a little bit more.
Speaker 1:And then you know, she came through incredibly clearly.
Speaker 2:It's like you had to do the world building first. Even though you know, even though you know the world. You know, you personally know the world, but it's different when you then have to put transfer that world onto the page.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, that's true. Um, and I think, in all these things, you know, like I had the idea, um, I was writing another um idea beforehand and it was more historical fiction and I I couldn't get the voice, you you know, I just I thought if I write this story, I'll be here for years because I will research the hell out of it. I felt like I had to know everything about, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. I was kind of ordering all these books and doing lots of research. I was thinking I'll never, you know again, because you know, writing is not the only thing I do do I just knew I'd never write this book.
Speaker 1:I'd always tell myself that I didn't understand it enough to be able to write it. And then I had this idea and I was like, well, I sort of know this world and actually I can, I can, you know, I can hear the dialogue, so I can write it. So I'm just gonna write it and that then, you know, I just knew that I, I could do this, I think um yeah, because I was going to ask you.
Speaker 2:You know, when you hit, obviously because I'm Grenadian, I hear, I will always hear a Grenadian accent, but because I know Miss Hortense is Jamaican, like I hear the Jamaican accent and when someone from St Vincent, I hear that. When someone from Beijing, you know they're Beijing, I can, I can hear it. So when I'm reading the characters, like automatically my brain, I hear the accents because that's what you grew up around, so you're doing the same when you're writing them. Are you distinctly hearing Miss Hortense speaking or Blossom speaking?
Speaker 1:yes, yes, I am, yeah, I am, and what's interesting is that, you know, some of the reviews have sort of said they've had to try and get used to the dialogue. You know, or was it sort of? Another question that someone asked me was whether it was a deliberate Did I explicitly think I'm going to write in a kind of patois? And it's absolutely not. It's just how I hear the voices, this is how they speak. So this is how it's translated onto the page and actually the way in which they speak is really important. You know, it goes back to that. You know that what they say and what they don't say, and how they say it, and the subtext, the kind of the humour, the kind of, you know, the straight talking, all of that you get in the dialogue. So I couldn't convey that in any other way other than how it's written on the page is my sense.
Speaker 2:But you know it also in a way, when someone you know says that and I'm not saying they're saying it with any kind of malice or anything, and I'm not saying they're saying it with any kind of malice or anything but when someone says that, there's kind of like, yes, you can write about these black characters, these Caribbean and I'm and I shouldn't even say Caribbean, because it's just generalizing all of us into a lump but you know these Jamaican characters, or Grenadian, or Bajan, st Lucia and everybody, all the individual islands.
Speaker 2:But even though you're writing about them, you still need to simplify the language to make it palatable for people who are not from these, from these places. And I don't think you would necessarily get that if it was, I'll just say if it was like a white person, english person writing a book about their community, you wouldn't. You, I don't think you'd ever get that. But the fact that someone's saying that, you know this isn't I'm having to do some work, we're doing the work yeah, that's true, it's a really good way of putting it and I hadn't really thought about it in that way.
Speaker 1:I mean, obviously I want the book to be accessible and I want people to engage with the world, um, but you know, patois is a derivative of english anyway. So it's not like. It's like if you, you can read it, I think, and you can get it, you know, and you can. I don't see that it's not. It's not like a, I don't. I don't think it's inaccessible, I just think, yeah, you just like with any book, you know, you just get into the rhythm of it and then you know, you understand it. But as an author, you know, as I say, to me it comes very naturally to write in the way that I do. So sometimes I do step back and think, oh, is that too much. But it's really helpful for you to hear you say actually like, yeah, like, maybe just do the work and you know, and you'll get it.
Speaker 2:I think so yeah it's.
Speaker 1:It's such an intrinsic part of the book. I think that if I wrote the characters on their dialogue in in another way, I think it would change the book completely it wouldn't even.
Speaker 2:And if I was to read it that way, you know, I said if you were just to do like a general, well, this is, you know from the, so we all taught the same. And it's like, well, no, we don't. Because you said, yeah, even though patois is a derivative of English, but depending on what island you're from, it's different. So if you're from Grenada and Dominica, our patois and I think Saint Lucia as well, our patois is French as well, so it's English and French. So it's not, it's not gonna be the same. So if I was reading it and it was just this general, I say this generalized Caribbean language, simplified or anglicized, I would be reading it, thinking I like it, but I just, I just feel for me like there's something missing. It'll be missing that authenticity. Like if you didn't say key domino I don't know what you, what you would say, is an alternative I'd be like, well, they didn't say key domino. We all know what key domino means and it's excitement. If you didn't have that, I'd be like, oh, something's missing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like it, but there's something missing yeah, yeah, yeah, I can, I can get that. And um, as I said, I mean a lot of this has just come. You know, any writing, I think it comes from sort of inside of you, in your gut. You know, you know what works for you and what doesn't. And so when you start to see, I mean you know, I guess what's interesting is during the editing process, if you don't trust that process, you can sort of maybe go off into a space where you know someone might say oh, actually, why don't you use this word instead of that word, or why don't you? You know, maybe you need to change that phrase or whatever. And I think you know you do kind of have to hold on to what has come from you and make sure that you're conveying that on the page Because, as you say, you say otherwise.
Speaker 2:I think probably when a reader is reading it they'll kind of get a sense okay, um, maybe that isn't quite right, and you know that can be jarring as well yeah, before I go I'm going to ask you about because we've been obviously talking about it, but I was I need you to tell the audience about a murder for mistletoe tense when I was on your blog page, right, and it did. It was just so funny. It coincided with something I saw on threads and on threads some, and it oh, I don't know why it always seems to be on threads. Never happens any other social media platform. You get the worst kind of book advice, like writing advice on there and someone had said that, like the worst, don't even think about submitting to an agent until you've finished your manuscript, like you just need to make sure your book is done. Don't think about it, because an agent won't read it. And I'm reading that post and I'm thinking I don't think that's necessarily true, because I know people who have submitted on a partial and they've been taken on, literally. They've been taken on in the partial.
Speaker 2:When I was doing my MA one of the students on the MA she submitted it. It wasn't even it wasn't even a partial, I think, it was just her first 2002 chapters and she got taken on. So there's no book. We hadn't even completed the first year of the course. And then I was on your website, you know, reading up about Mel Pennant and you got your agent with no book. And you got your agent with no book. So I'm like, don't listen to this writing advice. So you want to tell your story about how you found your agent, because I thought people need to know this. There's so many different ways that's yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there is um. So for me what happened was um, I had um. So I was on a brilliant pilot scheme that Hachette UK had done with Tamasha Theatre Company, which is a theatre company that I've been involved with for a very long time, and they really invest in creatives and they have invested in me and many other artists and they had this kind of pilot scheme that they just wanted to put on for playwrights who were maybe interested in novel writing and basically we had to submit a little bit of kind of an idea for a book and then I think maybe about eight of us were chosen to do this pilot scheme and it was an amazing pilot scheme. So we got to go into Hachette buildings, I think, every two weeks and we were just kind of told about the publishing industry. So agents came to speak to us writers, editors, and we just it kind of opened the door. You know, I think I may have said, but I think one of the great things certainly that I've been able to benefit from is the transparency that's been provided, I think, by writers, by podcasters, by yourself, you know, just to kind of open the door a little bit in terms of what is this writing world, and that course was an absolutely brilliant opportunity to do that and it was geared towards playwrights from the global majority was geared towards playwrights from the global majority. So what is really interesting about that pilot scheme is that kind of I think eight of us went on it and four of us got book deals as a consequence, which is a huge, really high percentage, which I think just shows the value of those kind of targeted schemes. I think and you know the other writers who now have books and you know the other writers who now have books Phoebe McIntosh, dominoes and Ayesha Siddiqui amazing writers.
Speaker 1:And you know, I can't, I think, advocate enough for those kind of schemes which I think are needed in this space where there is so much around the industry not being as diverse as it could be and not investing in um, but that's a sort of side aside um, but. But what I should say is, as part of that scheme, we got a mentor. I got a brilliant mentor who really advocated for me and she introduced me to Nell just at like one of these meet the agent events um, and I had done one of those kind of meet the agents events um for my MA in screenwriting and I was so disappointed in that because you sort of I don't know I think you've been on an MA, nadine, I think they do these, like you know meet the agents and the agents were so not interested in anything that you know you can sort of excited. You're thinking, oh, I'm gonna get like an agent and and you know you send, you know you send a few emails people ignore you. It was a really negative experience previously for me in these kind of meet the agent events. So I had no hope for this kind of meet the agent event. But I met Nell and she was really interested in my idea and so I thought, ok, I've got this golden nugget, I'm gonna keep Nell's email address.
Speaker 1:And then when I write something because you know, when I was doing the course I hadn't really written anything and you know I hadn't written a book but I thought when you know I'm gonna just, you know, keep hold of this contact because this is golden and you know I'm gonna keep in touch. So I kept in touch over the years, just like an email, like, oh yeah, that idea. You know I said I do like you know I will come back. But you know I've written this play and this plays on just this kind of show that I was serious, but also I hadn't really written anything. And then I'd written a play called Seeds, which was going to be nationally toured, and it was like the biggest creative thing I'd ever done. Um, it was, you know.
Speaker 1:The history of that play is also, for me, quite amazing because it was a play I'd written um years and years ago and I put in a draw. I picked it up a couple of years later. I was like there's something here that I really there's something that still gets me awful. I'm gonna, um, you know, tinker with it and then I'm going to enter it into a competition. So I entered it into the Alfred Faden competition, uh, which is an amazing competition again for writers of Afro-Caribbean descent. Um, it got shortlisted for that, along with, like, the Barbershop Chronicles and all these other amazing plays. I was like, oh my gosh, like yeah, it's been shortlisted. Um, and then it was picked up by another theatre company called Teatro Fahuti and a brilliant um director, um, and it was. We developed it for another two years and then it was going to be shown in March 2020. So, like the biggest, my biggest thing ever was going to be on globally, toured all these theatre companies kind of around the UK.
Speaker 1:This was my moment to kind of test whether or not I was you know. Am I going to become a full-time writer? Whatever it might have been? You know it's going to be amazing event for me and obviously you just say the date and it didn't.
Speaker 1:I know I'm just like I'm crushed for you, you know, and you know people have bought tickets and I was like no, what's happening now with the play? And I can remember it was um, scheduled for Soho. That was like it's finale and, like you know, so easy, oh my gosh. And I just kept looking on the internet and at Soho, you know, every month, there were all these plays that were just like cancelled, cancelled, cancelled, cancelled. So it became very evident that it was not going to have its like life Its moment. It wasn't going to have it, you know, because putting on a play is really expensive, you know all of the actors, et cetera, et cetera. There were all these plays that kind of just not had their moment.
Speaker 1:And the industry was also going through a lot. You know, people were furl through a lot. You know, people were furloughed, you know, and creatives, I mean, I'm, I was lucky to have a day job, but they were creatives who, you know, that was their, their living, their livelihood, and you know so it wasn't going to happen and it was just that moment of like, okay, fine, this is the world telling me I shouldn't be a writer, I'm just gonna not be a writer, I'm gonna do this other stuff, you know. So I had that moment where I was like, right, I'm not a writer, I'm not calling myself a writer. Um, this was sort of telling me, you know everything I needed to know about my writing career. And then, as I said to you before, not writing just doesn't make me very happy. I probably didn't become, I wasn't probably a very nice person to be around for a little while, um, and so I just thought, okay, maybe let me try and explore a forum that I don't need an audience for, like I don't need a venue, I don't need actors, I don't need you know, I'm going to try and explore this writing, creative writing, novel space, um.
Speaker 1:So I just started trying to write, um, a novel, um, and I sort of had written 30 pages of Murder for Miss Hortense it wasn't called that then and I thought at Christmas I thought, well, I've done this, should I submit it to? Now? This is like my golden nugget, this is like my, you know, and all the advice, as you say, is you have to have a finished manuscript, you've got to, like you know you should. No, don't do it, you're messing up this contact, um. But there was a bit of me that was like, oh, I don't really know what I'm doing. Like I just needed a bit of encouragement. Yeah, back, and it's just like, yeah, keep going. If she gives me some notes, that'd be like amazing.
Speaker 1:Um, so my finger sort of hovered over should I send this to now? Shouldn't? Because I, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't the perfect thing, it wasn't. It was just me kind of trying to be in that space and I thought, do you know what? I'm just going to send it.
Speaker 1:So, like around Christmas, I was just like send and I wasn't expecting anything back. I think Nell came back and said and it was Christmas, so probably I got like an out of office and I was like, yeah, and then Nell came back and was like, um, okay, thanks for this, can you send me like a synopsis or something? Oh, okay, fine, I was like you know, do this, um, and then I was just expecting her to either come back with just some comments or, you know, I wasn't sure, but I was not expecting her to to come back and say she wanted to have a meeting, so that, like you sort of Google, like what does it mean? Gosh, ok, I've got a meeting with Nelsy and I'm going to, like you know, prepare for this thing. And then I was sort of thinking what's the best case scenario? Again, the best case scenario is just some notes or something. The worst case scenario she says rubbish, don't write, don't you know? Blah, blah, blah. And then, literally, we had this meeting and she, she literally said, will you marry me? And I was like, oh my gosh like what, what it's a proposal
Speaker 1:and I was like I just I had. Honestly I really did not think like, um, nell is like this superstar agent who like is amazing, you know, like you google now, and you're like oh my gosh, yeah. And for her to kind of say that it was just it was the beginning of this whole mind blowing experience, because I knew then that if I could write my book, that the opportunities would be phenomenal, based on kind of what I'd known Nell had done in other spaces. But what's really interesting is like I sort of told my family and that and they were like, yeah, so what? Have you written a book? Like no one, no one kind of understood like the enormity.
Speaker 2:No, they wouldn't get it until until they see this. That's when they get it, but before that you're like, well, all right, okay yeah, exactly they.
Speaker 1:You know, luckily, I had, um, there was a someone who's a writer at my daughter's school and I sort of said, oh, I've got representation by now and, and she sort of got it. You know, she's the only person that really got it. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Everyone else is just like that's nice, that's nice anyway. Um, so, yeah, so back to your point. Uh, you know, I I have heard, and I've heard on your podcast, other stories where writers have been like they, you know, they haven't followed that traditional kind of a full manuscript and you get beta readers and you know, then you do like 10 edits and then that's only then do you kind of submit, um, and I think that is probably there partially to help the industry, because agents get so much, so you know so many submissions.
Speaker 1:So I can completely see why that would be the advice and I think it's also really important that you put forward your best work. I think that's also really important. But you know there are lots of different ways that you can enter this industry. I think, and you know, I guess I had had a playwriting background so I could show that. You know, I've written, I have written something full length it has been, you know, picked up by others. You know if you've got something else behind you. I think you can utilise that as leverage space too, which is important.
Speaker 2:I just said. I think it's so important for people to ignore half the nonsense they see on threads, basically about what you should or shouldn't do, and sometimes it's important to sometimes just go with your gut, which is like that's what you did, so right. Would you like to tell the reader, not the readers? Would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about A Murder for Miss Hortense?
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. A Murder for Miss Hortense is the first of a new crime series. It stars Miss Hortense, who is a retired Caribbean nurse from the Windrush generation. She is just this amazing woman, who is a gardener, she is a fantastic cook, she takes great pride in everything she does, including her home, which is in a fictional town in Birmingham called Bigglesway.
Speaker 1:And she has been a nurse for 35 years and all of her skills have enabled her to um kind of um, detect um people's motivations from just like the tiniest physical clue, um, but also she's completely fearless. So she, you know, doesn't, she, doesn't care, she, you know she will confront the local drug dealer, priest businessman, you know that's her. But 35 years ago something awful happened which created a sort of schism between her and her community, and it sort of has made her a bit of a recluse. But then a dead man turns up at the bottom of some stairs in a locked house with a note beside his body, and it was a Bible quote, which was the same quote that was whispered into the victims of brutal attacks 35 years prior. And now Miss Hortense knows that she's got to get back into the crime of the past and the current crime, and you know it's going to take all of her skills and all of the mysterious contents of her handbag, which is really, really important, to persuade the community that there's a killer amongst them.
Speaker 2:I love it right, and I now have two questions that I ask following on from you talking about the book. But can I just say, before I even ask those questions, the minute I read Pardoner Hand a partner. So funny. It's like you grow up hearing about a partner hand before you even understand what it means, and then also you grow to learn, you understand what a partner is and it's it's so important because it's how our communities, you know, we were able to put. You know, save money without putting it in a bank and in order to buy properties or buy a car or rent a business and do all of those things when I had a partner and I was like, oh god, I remember those time I've got to put 20 pounds in the envelope for the partner. You're like partner, what's a partner? And then you call your English.
Speaker 1:You're hearing partner like no, it's not partner, it's partner yeah, yeah, it's um, it's such an important part of our community and, um, you know, as I say, I was raised by my grandparents. My grandmother was a partner lady. Um, again, it's one of those things that I'm really kind of just in awe of. You know, the idea that a community would come to this country and, you know, be financially excluded from certain institutions and be like you know what, I don't care, this is our community, this is our system, this is what we're doing to solve that issue and we're going to use that to build our communities, to send for people from back home to buy our houses, to build our houses back home to, you know, build our businesses.
Speaker 1:The list is infinite and I think, like my generation, we sort of stand on the shoulders of that. You know, we were built from that system and you, as you say, it's normalised for us. But you know, I sort of say it's a really simple system. I can remember thinking, but it's just for us. But you know, I sort of say it's a really simple system. I can remember thinking, but it's just the same money there's like what, what is? I don't quite understand, but you know, it's hugely complex because it's about the community coming together, trusting each other yeah, it's the trust involved trust.
Speaker 1:That's really important. You have often have to have a very strong character who is well respected in the community to kind of put everyone in line, make sure everyone is contributing, make sure that you know you, then they're distributing to you know the relevant people. Um, when I speak to people in this space, you know, my stepmother sort of said you know, when I went to the pardon lady, she gave me advice, she told me you know, you know, these are really important people who were the bedrock of these communities. And, as you say, you know again, my generation, I think it's very much been about individualism. You know, you get on, you get your education, you do this, you, you know, blah, blah, blah. But so we've kind of lost that kind of community-ness. I think a little bit that was, you know, at the heart of sort of my grandparents generation and I just wanted to kind of capture that?
Speaker 2:yeah, because a lot of our grandparents, I would say that the reason they they have their houses, they're able to buy their houses in the 60s, is because of the pardoner hand. And for those who don't know what a pardoner is like, very simple turns. So like a group of 10 people get together and every week, 10 people, they put their 10 pound in the pot and in that pot gets given to. It gets given to Mel on week one, and then week two the pot comes to me and in week three the pot goes to Claire. And that's how the partner hand works. So you're able to do these things. So, mel, did you face any challenges? In writing.
Speaker 1:A murder for Miss Hortense um, I think maybe just the the usual challenges of of trying to convince myself that I could do it, that I could write a book, um and um, that I was good enough to write a book. Um, like many, I, in all of my spaces, I suffer from imposter syndrome, so I'm like I can't write a book. This is rubbish, um. So I think that the main challenge came for myself, and it was kind of just sitting down and just sort of saying you've got, you know, you can do this and you can write this book. And I think one of the best pieces of advice I've seen and had in this space is is to just write like you don't have to.
Speaker 1:I think I was under the illusion that you go into a bookshop and you see a book and that's the, that's how it always was, this like perfect, polished, shiny thing, so not. But I didn't know that and I think almost many people don't. You know, I have a lot of friends. They're like oh, I'll write a book when I, you know, get the right idea and I'm just everything's perfect. And I'm like no, you just write just whatever you want to write, and then you work on it and you craft it and it becomes and actually it's really collaborative. There are other people that will input and you know.
Speaker 1:So I think, um, for me the challenge was just getting myself to, to have enough confidence within my writing to just sit down and get it done and and, yeah, and believe in enough to do that.
Speaker 2:I say so. If you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters, whom would you choose, and why?
Speaker 1:that's such a good question do you know it? Has to be little tense because, you know, she's like the Don. She's, you know, an amazing woman and, as I say, she's very different to me. Um, she has a lot of attributes of my, of my grandparents, um, so you know the idea that you're talking about sort of being not dragged but being taken along the market.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm the one I say drag because that's what it felt like when you were eight you know, and she's getting into all of her spaces and she's doing what she's got to do.
Speaker 1:And you know, you're just like on the sidelines. Yeah, exactly, um, but yeah, I just, I just, and you know, as I say, that generation is is going and it really saddens me because, you know, I miss my grandparents, I miss everything that they've done for kind of us. You know the amazingness of them to move to a country they didn't know they had never been here before and to kind of set up roots for us, um, you know and home.
Speaker 2:They were stable homes stable homes.
Speaker 1:You know, I think some people say what was the motivation for writing A Murder for Miss Hortense? A little bit of the motivation was that I was hearing all this narrate, or I've had, you know, the media. You get all this narrative which is really negative about our communities that we're victims.
Speaker 1:You know, black on black crime. That's all you're seeing. And yet my knowledge of my community is not that at all. It's these people that that that are so strong, so resilient, that have put up with you, know so much and yet do it with kind of a dignity and a humour and a kind of a can-do, will-do attitude, completely different to kind of a lot of the narrative and you know other stuff that I see it was quite important for me. I sort of had that in mind when I was writing this book.
Speaker 2:OK, so the last set of questions. Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:I'm definitely an introvert, um, and it's really funny because, um, I met you at Harrogate.
Speaker 1:I think that was the first time yeah you did and um, and I, as I say, I listened to this podcast and I don't think I had understood the value of that question until I'd gone to Harrogate.
Speaker 1:And then I was like, oh wow, so because you know, as a writer you have your introverted space, but then there is this other space which is like this kind of festivals and sort of being out there and sort of you know and um, I love the ideas of sort of festivals, I love carnival, I love sort of. You know, I love parties, I love, but naturally I'm quite introverted so it takes a lot of energy for me to be in other spaces. Um, so I was like now I know why the dean asked that question, because as a published author, you're kind of in all of those kind of private space when you're writing, but also a very public space and moving to a very public space and I guess it's how you manage yourself in those spaces. That is something that I'm, you know, I'm going to be watching, I suppose, as journey progresses.
Speaker 2:I think even I mean I call myself a hybrid, but I think I'm probably more if. If I was doing like a percentage, I'll probably say I'm maybe 70 extrovert and 30 percent high, um, introvert. But even at those festival moments, especially something like Harrogate, it's such a lot. There have been times I'm like right, I'm done, I'm going back to my hotel and all I have done. I've gone to my hotel, laid on the bed, watched four in a bed, ordered some room service and I've just chilled out for like four hours, because you do need to decompress before you then. Okay, now I'm going to shower, get ready and put myself back out there.
Speaker 1:It's a lot it's really funny because you know, again in sort of private practice in law I can remember as a junior lawyer you have these events that you're meant to go to, where you've got a plate in one hand, a drink in the other and you're sort of meant to engage in these. You're like I don't really know what I'm doing here, I don't, and it's, it's a bit like it's you, you know, I think it's, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's kind of just being in those spaces where you're like you know when I think about it, because when I'm teaching the baby lawyers they need to add on like a half an afternoon class where they're just teaching you how to manage those social moments, because they don't tell you. But there really is a big expectation on you to network and there's some people they just they don't like it, they don't know how to. And then you qualify, you go to work, you're just expected to just perform in these spaces, which is a bit mad okay so in those spaces as well, you're engaging with people you might not ordinarily be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you never would. Yeah, yes, you're like what do we talk about? Cricket? I don't even love cricket, and then all the rules of cricket. I used to watch cricket with my granddad and really you know he'd sit there and we'd have to watch it. I didn't understand this. It's like I'm gonna buy all these books on cricket so that I can talk to people about cricket.
Speaker 2:Cricket is like a rite of passage though, is it? I say, at least I can talk about it. I'm like, thanks to my dad, thanks to my uncle Len, thanks to my granddad, like I could talk about it. All those moments coming from school, switching the summer holidays, coming back, coming from outside, why are you watching cricket? Why is this match going on for four days? Like why? Why are we still here? So you have it okay. So what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most? And I always say it could be good or bad, doesn't need to be a. This is the worst thing that ever happened in my life yeah, I don't, you know.
Speaker 1:I think I think every moment shapes you. You know it goes back to I'm a real fan believer, like you know, no work is wasted. I spoke about that play that you know was dusted off and then taken back out. I spoke about seeds. You know that was a really interesting moment and one where I could have been like I'm not writing again, but actually, if that hadn't have happened, I probably wouldn't have written my book, you know. So, yeah, everything happens for a reason.
Speaker 1:I can remember, um, I was, um, I'd like there was this screenwriting course, that, um, you were going to be able to write for tv or something, and it was a two-week course and it was going to be brilliant and it was open to sort of um, underrepresented groups and I somehow had taught myself onto that program, like I was on it already. I was on it booking my time off to go on this, this course. I knew everything that was going to happen and I didn't get on the course and it was absolutely devastating for me. In, just again, it was this kind of like this is the moment where I choose whether I'm going to do this or do this.
Speaker 1:You know, and you know, and I think in the writing world actually it's quite difficult to kind of tell yourself you know, I will be a published writer, because you don't know if you know or whatever. Um, and that that was. I don't know why I took that so hard, but I really really did. And what's interesting is about a year ago I was in a room with, with just I don't know, it was an event or something and I came across someone who was really lovely and I was speaking to her and it turned out that she was the sort of the leader of that course.
Speaker 1:I don't know. You probably don't even know about my application, but I applied and it was devastating that I didn't get on it and she was just this amazing woman. She was like I set up this course I'm writing myself. I set it up because I wanted to get greater representation into the TV industry and it was just amazing to kind of hear the motivation for that course, even being on which. You know it. Just, I don't know. The world is so small and things are meant to happen for a reason. I was meant to not get on that course but meet that writer years later and you know she's. I'm really happy to be your mentor, which was just amazing. Um, so you know, I think everything just happens for a reason, so I haven't fully answered your question no, no, but it's a good answer.
Speaker 2:It's still a good answer. Yeah, okay, cool, okay. So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:just to um to not rush at life and just not to um to have patience with myself and to love myself. Um, I am very critical and hard on myself, um, and I would just, you know, I just say, relax, just take your time. I think life, you know, you have different phases of your life and that is fine, and everything happens when it's meant to happen. This is meant to happen now and wasn't meant to happen any sooner. When I was approaching 40s, I was kind of like, oh, you know, what have you done? You know, oh, my goodness, like there's no life after 40. And it's funny, I get friends who, like are approaching 40 and they sort of the same, and I'm like it's completely fine, like you know, and it's a brilliant phase, and you know you, the world's not going to end, it's going to. You know, you're still a person. Um, I just give myself that advice yeah, give yourself grace.
Speaker 2:I think okay. So what is your non-writing tip for writers? I know it's a new one I've thrown at you oh, what do you mean by non-writing? So it literally always say it could be drink water, just like what would you yeah?
Speaker 1:that's interesting. Um, I would just uh, oh gosh, that's hard. I mean, I was gonna say because there's something about just being realistic about everything. Um, and yeah, just like I tend to give myself really harsh deadlines on writing, like, yeah, I'll get that done yesterday and of course that's. You know, it's fine for you to take your time to get the things done that need to get done, and, um, yeah, I don't know, I feel like that's a rubbish answer. No, you know why. It's not. Exercise is important. Um, um, going for walks is important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, but you know why I say it's not a rubbish answer, because I've been working on this thing for, like god, for ages. But it's something I have to keep putting down because I always say Henley keeps coming back. So it's just something, because it's like a little side project I have going on. And in the new year I said myself, or maybe before the new year, I said I'm gonna finish it, because I've got a gap and by and I gave myself a date like by the 9th of March I'm gonna finish it and send it to my agent and then we'll see what happens. Take it from there and literally, like Monday, I'm in it, we're now what and when. We're recording this. It's the end, it's gonna be the end of March.
Speaker 2:And Monday I said to myself why are you rushing this? Like you didn't need to put such a strict deadline on it, because this still needs work and you need to give it time and there's and also there's no need to rush it. So I think it's an important thing. Sometimes you don't, you feel like you have to, you have to hit it on this day and I was like no, you didn't, you didn't need to put all that pressure on yourself like there is no rush, because you just want to get it done and make it sure it's done well and that's yeah, because when you do it it sits in someone's inbox and then they'll be good at this in two months or something exactly yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:And the other thing, I think it's about what you want that that to be. So I've just finished my second, the first draft of my second book, and I kind of had to sit down and be like, okay, you've only got however long to write this book, but what is it that it must? You must ensure that it is when you submit it. Um, so there's nice to have.
Speaker 1:So I know that I'll go back, you know, because the writing process anyway, there's lots of to-ing and fro-ing, so polishing sentences may not be the most appropriate use of my time, because that sentence is probably going to disappear. But making sure that I have the right theme, or making sure that I don't know that I, that I have fully done justice to the essence of a character, is probably important, because if I don't make sure that that happens now, it's not going to happen in the second or the third draft. If people are starting to pick apart that thing, yeah, so I think it's working out what is important in that draft and it doesn't necessarily have to be all the kind of bells and whistles yeah, I think it's absolutely right.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be perfect, not that, especially on that first draft. No, and I think that's the best thing I like, the best gift I ever told myself. It does not have to be perfect, let it be a mess and it just. It gives you free. There's freedom in the mess. I always say so. Finally, mel Pennant. Finally, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:uh. So I've got my with the um author page, which I got done. Uh, that I'm really proud of. Um, it's so good, I love it. I'm really. I was like, should I get this done? Should I? Why am I doing that? And then I just thought, actually, this will be my space that I can kind of curate for the world so I can tell I can you know, rather than just googling myself and there's random stuff coming up. I can be like this is who I am, um, so I'm really pleased I got I got that done actually. Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm uh at that author address and I'm also mainly on Instagram okay, we can find you.
Speaker 2:So that just leaves me to say, mel Pennant, thank you so much for being part of the conversation.
Speaker 1:I'm so pleased. Thank you for having me. I'm.
Speaker 2:It's an honor, thank you thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemathersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
