The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
Finalist -Independent Podcast Awards 2024
*music: the coffee jam ©stereo_jam
The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Krystelle Bamford: Competing Against Yourself To Find Your Voice
What happens when a dedicated poet decides to try their hand at fiction? For Krystelle Bamford, it led to a four-publisher auction and her stunning debut novel, Idle Grounds.
Our conversation delves into the peculiar contradictions of the publishing world, how everything happens both excruciatingly slowly and startlingly fast, how validation feels wonderful yet fleeting, and how imposter syndrome persists regardless of success.
Whether you're a writer navigating the publishing landscape or simply curious about creative journeys, this conversation offers honest reflections on finding your path, managing expectations, and discovering what truly matters in artistic pursuits. Listen now and join the conversation.
As always with these things it started with a birthday party.
On a bright summer day in 1989 New England, Abi, three years old, vanishes from her aunt’s secluded home. Upstairs, her young cousins are looking out of the window. Something is unfolding in the distance at the edge of the forest – something sinister that is watching them back.
The adults don’t seem to notice that the youngest of the group has disappeared. Too busy bickering over politics and reminiscing about the family’s domineering late matriarch, Beezy, they leave the children with no choice but to get Abi back themselves. As the cousins embark on a quest through their grandmother’s sprawling estate, buried family secrets come to light and long-awaited plans are set in motion. Will they lose themselves while trying to find her?
Is an opinion platform hosted by Marvin “Truth” Davis. My life and career...
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
"Enjoying 'The Conversation'? Support the podcast by buying me a cup of coffee ☕️! Every contribution helps keep the show going.
https://ko-fi.com/nadinematheson
Don't forget to subscribe, download and review.
You can purchase books by the authors featured in our conversations through my affiliate shop on Bookshop.org. By using this link, you’ll be supporting independent bookstores, and I may earn a small commission at no additional cost to you.
Follow Me:
www.nadinematheson.com
BlueSky: @nadinematheson.com Substack: @nadinematheson Instagram: @queennads
Threads: @nadinematheson Facebook: nadinemathesonbooks
TikTok: @writer_nadinematheson
The good news feels incredibly good and like the bad news or lack of news, feels so bad and you're just kind of like going up and down all the time and it is just really good to have people like to kind of pull yourself out of it. I think with social media as well, like you're always just kind of like there's an endless number of things you can check and an endless number of ways to kind of feel bad if you're like really want to feel bad about something.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you're enjoying your week. I'm very well. I've just returned from Bradford Literature Festival where I was appearing on the Global Crime Queens panel with Simon Mair and Kia Abdullah, and it was chaired by John Sadiq from Writers Mosaic, and I had such a great time. It was so good. I mean, the Bradford Literature Festival was just amazing in itself, just meeting so many different artists and poets and authors, but then also just hanging out with my fellow crime writers and just talking about our books and our what was it? We talk about our writing processes and why we chose crime while we continue to write crime books, and it was just great fun.
Speaker 2:So that was the weekend, and last week I was formally formally, I'm saying indoctrinated is completely the wrong word, I don't even know what word I'm trying to use but I formally became the chair of the Crime Writers Association. So I'm the new chair of the Crime Writers Association for two years and I'm looking forward to it. And the weird thing is it was only the day after. Was it the day after? Yeah, the day after. Was it the day after yeah, the day after I became chair of the CWA. It was only the following day that I realized that I was the first black woman chair of the CWA and that in itself, I think, is a great achievement and it's also a sign of what's to come. So it's just like my little call out for crime writers everywhere Doesn't matter if you're published, self-published, looking to get published, come and join the CWA, come and join us. We're going to look after you and you're going to be part of an amazing community.
Speaker 2:Anyway, let's get on with the show, because today I'm in conversation with Christelle Bamford show, because today I'm in conversation with Christelle Bamford. Christelle Bamford's debut novel is called Idle Ground and it's out now, and in our conversation, christelle and I talk about the emotional roller coaster of being in an auction, the journey from poet to novelist and why competing with yourself is the key to happiness. Now, as as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Christelle Bamford, welcome to the Conversation. Hi, mindy Right, my first question for you is and I know I was just saying to you before we started recording it won't be tell me about your inspiration, but I do want to know how would you describe your writing journey?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a really good question, so, and it's one I should have like a better answer to, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Um, so I only ever wrote poetry for like years and years, that's it.
Speaker 1:And like I did not understand people who could do more than one thing, and it just never occurred to me to try to write fiction, like I did a little bit when I was like at school and stuff. But you know, like you have these poets who are like playwrights or they write librettos or they do film or whatever, and I was just like how can anyone kind of focus on more than one thing or even like aspire to be okay at more than one thing? And then I think I just yeah, so basically I just, um, I'd written poetry for a really long time, I had some successes, but it just felt like a I don't know. I felt like I had sort of run up against a wall, um, and so I decided to try my hand at writing fiction honestly, just for fun, like really with no intention of ever showing it to anyone, and that's kind of when I wrote Idle Grounds, but after writing lots of short stories that will never, you know, see the light of day and stuff, but yeah, so that was pretty much it.
Speaker 2:Did anything like in your I say your poetry career? Did it prepare you for, for publishing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it prepares you for rejection, definitely, I think, um, yeah, I think it did in a way.
Speaker 1:I mean it's, it's really different, because for me, because like poetry was just kind of constant stream of rejection, I mean you get, you get the occasional win, but it's just like their numbers are so high like they just get like hundreds or thousands of poems per week and so like your hit rate is so super low so you just kind of get this tidal wave.
Speaker 1:So that was good in terms of kind of like toughening you up I guess, but, um, in terms of like the actual kind of progression of it, it felt really different. Like poetry was something I was doing completely by myself, um, and then, with the fiction side of, was something I was doing completely by myself, um, and then with the fiction side of it, like I was doing it by myself at the beginning but I my, my book got picked up, I guess relatively quickly. So, like in terms of actually like the editing process and all that stuff that in poetry you almost always have to do by yourself, I had like people with me doing it and that was nice. Like it felt like more of a team thing than poetry would just like, completely like you and your computer, and that's it. So yeah, so that was kind of a nice difference you know what I say?
Speaker 2:what's weird? Maybe it's just a little bit of serendipity, but yesterday, last couple days, I was. I was clearing out under my stairs and I found a box. I forgot that was there and it had basically like it was a folder of my schoolwork when I was 15 and it was my English folder, and then I found the poems. We must have had a poetry assignment and mine was so bad.
Speaker 2:I think that's everybody, though oh was just you, but I was thinking how do you know if you're when you're good or if you're good at poetry and it's not just teenage angst on the?
Speaker 1:page yeah um, yeah, it's a really good question. I don't know, is the honest answer like, I think, maybe. I think, maybe, if you have a feel for it, like because everyone writes terrible poetry when they're a teenager, I think, like no matter who you are.
Speaker 1:It's like that's just like part of the growing process is fine. Um, I wrote I mean, yeah, awful poetry, like really rhymey, like very navel gazing, and I think that not maybe when I first knew that I was good at it, but I when I first knew I really liked it was when I started university and it just kind of made sense to me. I think I liked how small it was, in a way that you could just kind of hold it in the palm of your hand, and I really liked the sort of sound like aspect of it, like the kind of textural aspect. So I think I just I could feel my brain start to kind of whir when I was reading it and then I think that was maybe how I realized that maybe I would be okay at writing it. I just felt like I had a kind of a feel for it and yeah. So I think that was that was it.
Speaker 1:And I had a really good um, I had a really good teacher my freshman year, oh, maybe my sophomore year of NYU, and he was like just really encouraging, really lovely, because like creative writing at NYU was like a total blood sport like, like is it really? Oh, it was. I don't think it's like that anymore, but it was told at the time, yes, and this class that I took was just like an entry level one. Anyone could get into it. I had no intention of like pursuing it past that point, but he was really great and he was like, no, you should, you should apply for like the kind of more higher level classes.
Speaker 1:And I was like, okay, and it was just he was he fostered like such a nice atmosphere and um, and I think he was like really the reason why I decided to sort of pursue it. And it's really funny because my launch he's he's um, he lives in the states, he's a poet named Kazim Ali and I put him in my acknowledgements of my novel and somehow it kind of went. He must have seen it in a bookshop or whatever. And he got in touch and he's in Edinburgh, scotland, where I live, during the launch.
Speaker 1:So he happens to be here for like a kind of a meeting tour, so I've not seen him in like 20 years, or whatever 25 years, and it's gonna be the first time I've seen him in like a quarter century and he'll be coming to my launch, which is so exciting that is so amazing.
Speaker 2:It really yeah, it's really lucky. Yeah, you know what I want to just go back on only because I just find it interesting knowing you described it the creative writing course as being a blood sport. What? What made it such a blood sport? Like? What were they? I don't know what. My asking is like what were the students? What were they?
Speaker 1:I don't know what my asking is what were the students hoping to get? What made them so competitive? I think it was fostered by the teachers. To be honest, like it was a really weird. I think that a lot of the creative writing tutors not all of them, some of them are wonderful, but they were just like look, it's a tough business and most of you won't make it and you're gonna have to get used to rejection. So we're just gonna start now and then and they would just kind of pit people against each other.
Speaker 1:I think you'd be like oh, you look like like. I remember one professor looking at this poor girl and he's like oh, you look like you'd be really talented, but you're not, and like things like that. No, and it was just absolutely jaw-dropping. Yeah, and it was like, and I I don't know, I don't know, but it was. It was pretty grim, I mean, like I really enjoyed aspects of it and but it was really good because that first class is like warm and fuzzy and lovely and actually, to be honest, I probably took the most out of that first class because it was just like really nurturing and everyone's like really supportive, and I think that's probably how it is now. I think it was just a weird time and maybe there was like less student support and stuff back then. But yeah, it was. It was just like everyone would just be like ashen faced, like just sort of like knees knocking together, bringing in their like peace.
Speaker 2:But I think people feel like, anyway, but yeah it's crazy because on one on one hand, you could be saying you know what? I'm just going to be realistic with you. There's no point giving you this rose-tinted view of publishing. I'm just going to tell you exactly how it is. So you're prepared and that's. There's nothing wrong with that. But then the other side of just like well, you're not going to make it, but I don't even know what your hair that's.
Speaker 1:I know it's really cruel and like everyone was so young, like everyone was like 18, 19 years old, like there's no way anyone would have any. There's so many people who are like, like you were saying, everyone writes bad poetry that age and it's just a question of like learning to love it. And also it's like no one learns well when they're scared. You know, it's like your brain shuts down. It's really hard to be creative when you're terrified and like yeah, I don't, I still don't understand that. I mean, I guess it was good. In a way, it's like it does toughen you up, but if you, if you, decide to kind of keep going with it, it meant you were like quite serious about it, I guess, but like I think it probably turned a lot of people off who were probably really talented in that. Yeah, it's a kind of a shame.
Speaker 2:It kind of like you kind of forget how young you actually are at 18, if that makes sense. You know, like if you're starting university, those three or four years at uni from 18 to 21, 22, you are so young and you are.
Speaker 1:You're not just learning about life, you're still learning about yourself oh yeah, totally like I mean it's funny because I think the American, like liberal arts system is different than the way uni is structured in the UK, I think. So, like in America, like you, you go and have no clue what you want to study, right, so you just kind of walk in. Like I have a friend who had to declare her major two years in and it was between fine arts and anthropology and she decided to go for anthropology but she walked into like the janitor's closet on her way there by accident, like she opened and she decided it was a bad sign. So she decided to like study fine arts instead. So it was like just on a hair, it was like so kind of random what you decided to go in for. And so everyone's just sort of like feeling their oats and like figuring out what they wanted to do.
Speaker 2:So to kind of be so discouraging of people at such an early stage and yeah, you just are really young, yeah, it seems, it seems crazy hold on so you, when you go to you know when you go to college in the states you don't go to study, study a subject like so, like here in the UK. So when I went I studied no you don't.
Speaker 1:No, it's so weird, so it's like I mean, maybe it's, she's, no, I'm sure it's still like that. So you just get accepted to like the university or the college and like I mean, I guess like if you, if you wanted to study music, you would obviously apply to a music school and then you kind of like specialize from there. But no, you just apply. Most kids go in for like just liberal arts and then you could study math, you could do pre, and I think maybe you kind of have to qualify after a certain point to get in. But yeah, you can just go in and kind of like spend the first years mucking around and just seeing what you like really, but it means that you're not that specialized. Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 1:So, like what I did, a master's in Scotland. That's why I moved over here like a long time ago and it was so intimidating to be around the kids who've gone through the British education system because they were super specialized, like they knew exactly what they were talking about. They just spent like four years completely focusing on that one subject. I was like, oh, I took women's studies and a film class and, like you know, you have to do like biology and all this stuff.
Speaker 1:So it's like you're kind of well-versed in lots of things. Not well-versed, you're like a master of none, basically. But you're just like, yeah, you can, like you can calculate 15% of it, even if you're like an English major, you can like calculate a 15% tip pretty easily. But like you don't know the history of like post-modernism, it's weird. It's like, yeah, it's a funny, um, it's a funny way to do it, but it's good. In a way, it means you learn about lots of different things, but you just don't know that much about your subject yeah, because I think I actually I think I prefer that because I always say I'm.
Speaker 2:I always say to well, any, I say any of the younger kids around me who are asking me about university and I always say look, I think if you're going to go to uni, you should spend those three years studying a subject that you enjoy. You don't have to be forced to specialise in one particular thing at 18 because you're still learning about yourself and you know it's not over. Just because you graduate in I don't know science doesn't mean you're stuck studying or working in the science field yeah, because it's a it's a huge decision.
Speaker 1:I mean, like, as you were saying, like 18 or 17, you know it's like you're really young. Yeah, I mean I had. I mean I kind of knew I wanted to do English, like I was lucky, like I kind of knew early on, but like most people are just kind of dying around really, and that is, I think you need a bit of family and time. Like you need like two years of just like just figuring things out. And yeah, I mean in France they do it really early. They do it when they're like 14, I think. So they get kind of like pushed into these like different skills and like so you know that like you're going to work in kind of like food science from the time you're like 14, like it's it's. I mean that's kind of an exaggeration, but it's, it's crazy and I'm like I mean I guess it's nice you kind of know what the rest of your life is going to look like, but it seems weird to specialize like before you've like fully gone through like puberty it's.
Speaker 2:So it's really odd and so it's like going back to your bad poetry when you're like 15 and then you're still. You're being forced to make life decisions at 14 and 15 when you can't even write a good poem.
Speaker 1:I mean I don't think I could do like long division when I was 14, still like.
Speaker 2:I just get. It's really, it's really odd, oh, but luckily I think yeah, oh sorry, no, I was gonna ask you is it easy or was it easier to call yourself? No? Is it easier to call yourself a poet in comparison to calling yourself a writer?
Speaker 1:maybe I'm just more used to it. I mean even poet sounds. It feels really pretentious, to be honest, like you're, like I'm a poet, like it feels really silly, it feels quite effortless like you're floating around campuses and just like yeah, there's like a lot of baggage that goes with that.
Speaker 1:I just I think of myself as someone who wrote poetry. I don't really write poetry so much anymore. So for the past year they've just kind of been focusing on the fiction side of things. But yeah, probably that was just for most of my experiences. But I think the next, you know, I think I'll continue with fiction for a while, just because I really love doing it. So, yeah, that's where my focus is now. But I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean, do you like you must call yourself a writer, like that's yeah, it didn't come easy, though it took a while to say no, I'm not a lawyer and I'm, and I'm a writer. It took a long time for me to get comfortable saying that, I suppose because you know you said being calling yourself a poet sounding a bit pretentious. I think calling myself a writer sounded a bit well like who am I? Oh, I'm a writer, you know. It's like, oh, like who are you? I thought you was a lawyer and I thought it couldn't. It didn't even feel comfortable coming out of my mouth like it took a while for me to get there yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 1:I mean like I I still kind of struggle because, to be honest, I'm still working at my day job for the the time being, um, just because I've got kids and I don't know. I think that sense of stability is like quite nice, and so when I go through like airport security and stuff and you have to write down your occupation, I'm just like what do I write? Like writing writer seems completely or even I mean poet would be like the most ridiculous. But then writer just feel I'm like have I earned this yet? I don't know. Um, so I think I've done it a couple of times and you always feel like they're gonna haul you up and be like you're not a writer.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, it's not happened yet I'm I'm trying to think what I wrote last year on my immigration form to Grenada, because I was still writing lawyer for the last. Well, since I published um, yeah, since the jigsaw man was published, so from 2021 I was still writing lawyer on the immigration form and I said I wonder if I wrote writer last year, but I'm not sure because I still would have felt I think I'll be okay saying it, but then writing it on an official document it's probably still a bit weird yeah, totally, I like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. I mean I wonder, maybe you just have to. I mean, you you've published a few books, so I mean you're kind of at that point. But maybe if you get into like kind of three, four book territory, then you just feel like super, I don't know. Suddenly it becomes official, you get the official writer's stamp, or I guess people always talk about it like if your main income source is from writing, but then should it be tied to money? I, I don't know. I mean I guess it's just how you feel in yourself.
Speaker 2:I think you know what you're saying about getting that official stamp. I think if someone had handed me a certificate, so like when I got admitted to the law, so if they'd handed me a certificate saying you are now officially a writer and I'm not talking about my MA certificate, I mean like a, I don't know well, I don't know, maybe one for my agents, for my publisher, yeah, and I would have thought, yes, now I am, I have official documentation, even though your book is documentation, it's proof. I don't know. It's a weird thing.
Speaker 1:I think that's a really good idea. I think that, like when you get that box, I just got my box of finished copies yesterday from um, my UK publisher, and I think that they should just put a little like word document, laminate it just like with a little seal like you're officially a writer. I think everyone would just like imposter syndrome, would go out the window, would be like no, I've got my little laminated document and that's it. It's done. So yeah, just take the pressure off you. You didn't have to decide.
Speaker 2:It'd be like, yeah, yeah did it surprise you that you would still be I say still be dealing with imposter syndrome, even though you know you've written the book, you've got, you've got the agent, you've got the deal, you know your book is going to be out there and you've you know, not even in the UK, it's going to be out in the States. Does that imposter syndrome still think yeah, does just feel like why I'm a grown woman, why am I?
Speaker 1:yeah, oh yeah, I mean I guess, like I mean, does anyone not have it? I don't know. Um, yeah, completely, I I don't know. I mean I don't know if that ever really goes away, because, like you think that you get the agent and that's the big step, and then you your book sells and that's the next big step, and it's all feels really nice. But I think you do just have that thing where like oh, they're gonna take it away you know, or it's gonna disappear.
Speaker 1:Like yeah, completely I think that. Um, yeah, I I just wonder if that ever goes away from for anybody. Probably, I think a lot some people don't have it, but I wonder about those people.
Speaker 2:No, I think a lot of writers even from speaking to writers on this podcast and outside of it, I feel like a lot of writers feel like they're on a bit of shaky ground, like it could all just disappear in a heartbeat because you're wearing. You know, let's say, you're only as good as your last book. So you're constant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're constantly starting again yeah, I mean, I think that sadly, that's kind of true. Um, like I I mean I don't know, people talk about the kind of the heyday. So I worked in publishing like years, years ago, really long time ago. Just for a few years I worked like on the foreign right side of things and it was really great.
Speaker 1:And I I do think that there is maybe more of a kind of more patience for like developing writers then, and I think maybe there's like more of a conversation about that now in publishing, where it's like, well, you know, the person's first book doesn't do that well, we're like we've invested in them as a writer and, um, we'll help them get out their second book and help them find their audience and you know their readership, and and I wonder if there is a certain amount of pressure now just to have that big hit right out of the gate. And if you don't have that and you're like, um, yeah, then like your chances of like having a second chance are like so diminished. And I don't know if that's actually true, like, or if it's something that I just picked up somewhere and like inflated in my head and I don't know. What do you think like?
Speaker 2:I think it's like a con. I think it's a combination of of things. It's stuff you hear, especially like on social media, from other writers and people who you know they've had the bells and whistles with their first book and then the second book has just come out and it's barely been a party popper. So I think when you hear those stories it does filter through.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I mean I yeah I wonder because, like I remember, at the publishing house I worked at, I mean I was really bad at predicting the ones that were going to do. Well, like most of the books that I loved the most barely made a peep when they got published and I was like what's going on.
Speaker 1:These are great, but like really great books, really original and funny, and and it was just like the direction the wind was blowing that day, like it just felt like it was total luck that they didn't, and I didn't see their marketing budget, so I don't know um, but then a lot of those people didn't publish a second book and I don't know if it's just because they were so disappointed by the way their first book had gone, um, that they were just kind of like I can't bear to like go through this again, or maybe they weren't, I don't know, couldn't find the right publisher, or or I don't know what happens.
Speaker 2:But yeah, there's so many different factors, because it could be that you know, if your first book you had the right editor, you had the right copy editor, the right, you know your team had come together perfectly. And then you're working on your second book and maybe your editor leaves and moves, because everyone, everyone moves around in publishing, so they move to another publisher, your publicity person leaves and goes, someone else, so it's a complete change. And then you, maybe the your new editor is not as infused with your book because they didn't choose you, they've kind of just been, you've just been passed on to them. So so there's so many different.
Speaker 1:You probably turn yourself mad, I know kind of like find the right formula. Yeah, no, you're probably. I see, I didn't realize that until so. I was really like I was overly confident when I entered into this whole process because I had worked in publishing before and I was like, oh, I know the game, like I get it, um, and I just I really felt like a total insider and like not only had been a really long time since I worked in publishing, but it's just like so different from the writer's side of things. And there's like so many things where I was just like, oh god, I hadn't realized.
Speaker 1:And one of those things was like how important it is that the people who are working on your book be like genuinely really enthusiastic about it and really love it. It makes all the difference, like and I didn't even I knew, like working in publishing, that people I mean especially at the time were pretty underpaid. You know, most, most of the staff was pretty underpaid. They're really overworked and they really are in it for the love of it, like it's. It's very much like, yeah, they're doing it because they love books and because they care about the books that they're publishing. So I just kind of assumed that, like, they've made this investment in a book and no matter who kind of takes that book on within the company, they'll like really want to see the best for it, which I think is kind of still true, but whether or not they genuinely really love the book and feel like the book is their baby, that feels like everything like if you don't have that it's. That's tough yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:I said it's when it can do your head and you really need to have, like, good people around you, like in terms of your friends and family, to keep you grounded and also keep friends who are actually in like other writers and they're going through it just to give you the reality check so you can turn yourself mad and just walk away from it all yeah, yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker 1:I think, like I think it's also nice to have friends who, like, aren't in the business as well, because everything that you tell them sounds really exciting to them, like even if it's bad, they're like wow, that's so glamorous and you're like it's, it's really cool, it's like so most of my friends aren't writers, like I do have a couple of friends like my partner's a writer, and I have a couple of friends who are, who are writers, but for the most part, like they work in like renewables or they're teachers or you know whatever. They kind of do a range of things, and so it's it's really funny to describe it Like you'll just kind of get so like really down the rabbit hole of being like upset over, like something that you didn't get or I don't know whatever, like there's a million things you can always like find to kind of like take the wind out of your sails, and they just kind of look at you like this has no real world bearing. This is just like this doesn't? I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:It's so true. I was telling I think I was talking to my dad and I was telling him something that had happened to me with publishing, and he was just looking at me on the screen like and he literally said to me is is that a good thing? And I'm like it's a good thing, but it's got that, it's got no bearing on his life. He's not. And I think, and as he said, I think sometimes you do need that people who are not in the industry to give you like actually, maybe it's just no, it's not, it's just it's what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like so like the world isn't gonna end if you don't get like whatever on whatever book club. I mean like obviously it's, and I think that's it. It's like because, like the debut novelist experience forever is so kind of rollercoaster. It's like like just the good news feels incredibly good and like the bad news, or lack of news, feels so bad and you're just kind of like going up and down all the time and it is just really good to have people like to kind of pull yourself out of it. I think, with social media as well, like you're always just kind of like there's an endless number of things you can check and an endless number of ways to kind of feel bad. If you're like really want to feel bad about something, and then to kind of just like go out and like just talk to people who worked in a hospital all day.
Speaker 1:Or you know they're just like their priorities are just completely elsewhere. And you're like oh yeah, this is really nice and that's why, like, having kids is good, like for that too. I think I've got two kids. I've got a son who's five and a daughter who's eight. And when they found out I was publishing a book, my son was just like all right, where is it?
Speaker 2:and I was like oh no, it's not been published yet and he just looked at me and walked away.
Speaker 1:He was just like I don't want to hear about this my godson did that with the first one.
Speaker 2:He would have been hold on he's 11. Is he 11 now? Yeah, he's 11 now, so he must have. He must have been about seven, six or about no, about six years old and um no, when we got the deal. So maybe he was five. And I told him you know, auntie's got got a book deal, she's gonna write a book. And then he went out of his mum and she called me and he goes he's walking around looking for your book. She's like no, no, it's not, it's not done yet. And it's like what do you mean? Because in their head, well, you said auntie's written a book, so where is it? Yeah, where is it yeah, oh, completely.
Speaker 1:I mean it's really funny. Like my, my son, after that like decided he was like right, well, if your book isn't coming out for like more time like half my lifetime that I've been like a lot so far it's like I'm gonna have to wait another half life. And he, he decided he was gonna write it. So he like folded a bunch of a4 beds of paper in half and then made my partner write the book actually, but he just did the illustrations and then he made us go to the library to kind of ask them to kind of put it on their shelves, which was like they were really nice about it. I was a bit like, oh, does this feel kind of obnoxious, these busy librarians? But they were really. They were super, super sweet and they were like oh, wow, we heard about this book. This book's meant to be amazing.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so sweet oh we'll put up on our shelf. Yeah, it was really nice actually, and he was like but he wasn't. He was just kind of like oh, that's his do. He was like oh yeah, cool. Like yeah, maybe I'll sign it for you and just like kind of spread it out. It's a very, very confident little guy.
Speaker 2:I think that's great. He won't forget that though. Yeah, I was in the library. Yeah, yeah, I was a. I was a positive everyone knew my name.
Speaker 1:Well, it's really funny because, like, not that long after, um, because we live literally, it's a lovely library and the librarians are great, um, and we're there a lot just because, like, I've got kids and, um, it's a good place to go on a rainy day. And uh, my friend was like, oh, you should totally tell them that you're publishing a novel, like you know, they'd love to hear that. Like, oh, man, local author would be so great. I was like cool. I was like, yeah, you think so. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:So I like walked up to the librarian. I was like I was like I've actually written a book. And she's like, oh, have you? I'm like no, no, but it's like a book, it's like coming out with a publisher. And she was like, oh, ok, she's like well, you can put a request in for it through our online system. I was like, oh, no, no, it's my book. And we just went around in circles for ages and I realized she actually knew what I was saying. But she was basically like yeah, if you want your book, like stocked on ourselves, you can put a request to the central library. Like just not impressed at all. No, like I was like, oh, yeah, it's good. It keeps you humble. You're just like oh they do that.
Speaker 2:You probably. She probably gets like maybe like 10 writers a day. I'm a writer, I know, do you have?
Speaker 1:my book yeah, oh exactly, I think, especially living in Edinburgh, which is like a really great city. They've got like millions of independent bookshops like, and they've got like the big festival, it's just it's like a very literary city and there's like lots of writers who live here. So it really is just like sewing a cat and you'll hit a writer like. There's just no, it's just not impressive to. I mean yeah, everyone's just like oh yeah, get in line, like yeah, we got loads yeah, local writer, you're special.
Speaker 1:We got loads of local writers yeah, there's like Tim across the street and Jimmy Dino.
Speaker 2:It's just like yeah, I think you feel like you want them because you are local and you feel like you have a bit. You feel like you have ownership over the library or your local bookshop. You do want them to like bring out the, the marching band and be like, oh my god, you're here and it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1:They're like oh, yeah, okay yeah, I know I really thought, I completely thought I would get.
Speaker 1:I mean, I realized, like not everyone in life is like my mom, who's like really proud of me and like, but you do kind of think, you do think you'll get a little bit of that treatment and it's weird like you do, but just like not from the people you expect, like at work.
Speaker 1:So I still work in my reception job and, like I have to say, probably a lot of the people I work with aren't like I wouldn't say they're not big readers, but they're probably maybe not big readers of like the kind of book that I've written and and that's not to say they won't like it, but, um, it's probably just like not the kind of thing they'd necessarily pick up off the shelf. But they are so excited, it's so nice, like they're just like oh my gosh, you're gonna have a, we'll have like a work launch you can have like your book launch, and then we'll have everybody, yeah, and they're like checking like my amazon rankings and just like everyone's like really, really psyched and I, I really didn't expect that and then, yeah, but like local library, they're like meh anyway, so, yeah, it's funny to see, like, what reaction you get from people, because it's just never the one you expect but you need to have that excitement and that buzz around you because it makes it you.
Speaker 2:It makes you feel that all of that hard work, literally all that sweat and tears that you're putting to write in this book, is worth it because there is, there are a group of people who are excited, who are excited yeah, I, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:Like it's definitely been one of the nicest parts of the whole process because like it's I'm I may be like in the minority in that like it was really nice seeing the finished copies of the books, like the American edition and the UK edition, and they're really beautiful and like the covers are beautiful, like they did such a nice job with them. So I don't want to do down the actual, like physical copy, um, but it didn't kind of like make me cry, you know, like it didn't. I I wasn't like doing the kind of unboxing videos where I was like and, um, and I don't know why, I was just like, yeah, but it's actually the stuff that I do find really like lovely and touching and makes it all feel really worthwhile, is like people you haven't seen in years kind of getting in touch, being like I saw your book in the, you know, in the bookshop and it's not that the books in the bookshop, it's just that like it's kind of like reestablished that connection with that person and I think that's really nice.
Speaker 2:And it's nice to think that they're excited for you and it's like you know people from high school or teachers or whoever. It's nice and they will find you. And they, oh god, I sound like um, what's his name? Liam Neeson, in Taken, like I will find you, but no it, they will find you like your old. Same thing happened to me, like my old school friends, who I haven't seen since I left school at 16, were messaging me like found me, saying I saw your book and I've got your book, and I think it's amazing and I always start talking about my PE teacher, mr Roberts, out of the blue, found me on I mean, I haven't seen him since I was 16 found me on Facebook and said I saw your book, I'm so proud of you and I thought, oh, mr Roberts oh, that's so nice, that's lovely.
Speaker 1:I mean, that must make a really so it's um, in my, in my book, in the acknowledgement. So I, I thank my creative writing professor from my freshman year of college. But there's a high school teacher who sadly has like passed away. Um, but he was like such a big influence on me. He was my french teacher, so it had nothing to do with writing, but it was like he was a completely terrifying guy and he's an amazing teacher and he really put his back into it.
Speaker 1:It's like teaching high school is tough work but he just like made it so much fun, he was great and like I'm so sad these past weeks I'd really love to kind of send it to him and be like actually like a huge part of this is because of of you, and like he was the first person who ever showed us like even though it was in french, it's not so fancy, but like um, he, I remember him showing us like literary theory and I'd never seen that before and I was. It completely blew my mind and it was just like, oh yeah, I would really, I don't know find like his family or something and send a copy of the book I, I don't know. Anyway, I'll have to do some, some digging, but it does like that kind of like oh, you were there at the beginning and that's really nice and we can celebrate this thing together.
Speaker 2:I mean, that sounds really self-indulgent, but it's, it's lovely it's like a really nice thing yeah, I don't think it's self-indulgent at all, because they, they were there from the beginning and somehow you know, they're maybe not responsible, but they contributed in some shape or form to that spark and it's and it's also having that connection with someone from your past. And then they're like look at me now. So I don't think it's self-indulgent at all well.
Speaker 1:so I it's funny because, like my partner and I have been together for a really long time but we're not married, so we never like had a wedding, um, and so I it's funny because, like my partner and I have been together for a really long time but we're not married, so we never, like had a wedding, and so I don't think I like we've never had that kind of like. I don't know like everyone get together and celebrate me Like and like kind of all these people I haven't seen and family and friends, and so the book kind of feels like that a little bit. It feels like kind of feels like that a little bit. It feels like kind of like drawing people in, yeah, from like all corners and, yeah, it's nice.
Speaker 2:so it's kind of like my very like, inexpensive for me wedding, which is nice. I love that. It's your wedding. Well, it could be like your book launch. Your book launch party will be your.
Speaker 1:It will be the wedding well, I feel like I I'm like oh, it's great because we're having an art space around the corner. It's really lovely, but it's not huge. But we've invited loads of people and actually people are coming and I think it's because we didn't have a wedding listeners.
Speaker 2:It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. When I was googling you I always hate saying that because I always feel like I'm stalking someone and I'm not but when I went online and I was reading about your maybe it was the bookseller article and I was reading about your maybe it was the bookseller article and I was reading about your auction. So your book went into a four publisher auction and I always think I don't think anything can prepare you for that. So how did you manage that moment of being in an auction?
Speaker 1:ah, do you know it was so weird. Weird because my mom was really ill and she's fine now, but she had cancer and she was having a massive operation in Boston and I was flying over and it was all really quick. It's like she'd been diagnosed over the summer and then it was just like within two weeks. It was just super, super quick. And so I flew over kind of like about three days after we found out and I was standing in line for the passport control in Boston Logan Airport when I got the message from my agent saying that there had been an offer and then the entire auction was happening while I was sitting in the hospital and then the entire auction was happening while I was sitting in the hospital. So it was so weird, but actually it was kind of like it was a really rough time on on some level, well, on lots of levels, um, and again she's she's recovered really well, knock on wood, like she's doing great now, um, but it was kind of nice because it just gave us all something else to focus on.
Speaker 1:I like I know that's where she was just really excited, like she was yeah. So there's yeah. Basically it was just kind of nice news and it was only nice news. You know what I mean. Like an auction is almost always going to be mostly nice news. So like, yeah, that was good, but it was weird.
Speaker 1:It was like there was part of me that kind of wished that it had happened at like a time when I could fully concentrate on it. But looking back on it, it was probably like that was probably the best time for it to happen. So it was yeah, it was really nice and actually the I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but anyway, the first publisher who put in an offer was actually the publisher I ended up going with. Publisher who put in an offer was actually the publisher I ended up going with and they were like so enthusiastic, um, so it was really nice. I all felt like it kind of worked the way that it was meant to and it was, yeah, it was really it was nice. Um, yeah, it's thrilling, but it was just like it was like a weird sort of thrill because I was also just like you know, like changing tubes and stuff so it was odd.
Speaker 2:Um, it's not, yeah, I mean it's. It's an odd situation in itself, but then to have that going on with your, with your mother and it's, I know, it's kind of like an out-of-body experience anyway. So in a funny way it would be good if you were away from it, because it makes no sense, because you can't relate it to anything else in your life. It's not like buying a I don't know a painting in auction it just makes sense.
Speaker 1:Well, I think also it's just so weird because, like you know, as I said before, like I'd written poetry for years and it's just a wall, like a tidal wave of rejection and so like just the idea that, like more than one person wants your work is crazy. Like it feels so, um, I don't know, it just feels like, you know, with buses or whatever, like that, like yeah, haven't come along after like it. It feels so weird, um, yeah, I don't know, that's the only way I can describe it. It feels weird and it feels really nice because obviously you get letters um saying why they like the book and there's they put together kind of um like slideshows for you. I mean, there's just like there's they put a lot of work into it.
Speaker 1:They need to put in so much work and it's so nice, you're just like.
Speaker 1:You're just kind of basking in the, in the praise and stuff, and then, yeah, it's great and like. But it's funny because in the States I didn't have an auction, so it was just one publisher made an offer and they were lovely, but it was not. It was. It was so different. You know, it was very much like it wasn't kind of all singing, all dancing like in the way that, um, the UK auction had been. So I really kind of saw it from both sides. Um, yeah, which is fine. It's like you can't. You know I can't. But it's funny also because I used to work in rates, I used to run auctions, so I thought I kind of knew how it would be. I used to run auctions, like with foreign publishers, so I was like, oh, I, I know how this works, I know how this goes, but I really didn't. I'd like like everything.
Speaker 2:I was just completely in the dark it's really interesting how you know you worked in publishing, you you know how, like on a business level, you understand how auctions work. You understand how the whole process works from beginning to end, but when you're on the other side of it, you're just like I have no idea what's going on. This is just weird. No, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wonder if, like I'm like, oh, maybe things have just changed, or like everything feels because it's true, like they always say about publishing, everything was really slowly and it was really really fast, and like I have found that it's to be completely true it just feels like kind of nothing is happening. I think things are happening behind the scenes, you just you're not aware of them. And then suddenly, like everything happens for a couple days and it's just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom and then nothing for like a couple months, and it's really hard to kind of get used to that um, like that pace. Like it's just like really odd. And like I also found that like I don't know if you've ever had this, but when, like I just didn't realize what was like valuable in publishing, like I think things have changed as well since they were, it's in it. It's they were like oh, this, you know book club, or this sales marker or whatever, and I'm like, oh man, I didn't even realize I was supposed to be worried about that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like I didn't realize that was like a thing that people tracked not, you know it, you know it's so true, because there's so many things. Just for example, you're saying like book clubs and even you know we talk about a lot on the podcast getting into supermarkets, but yeah, just talking about book clubs in general and getting the coveted sticker on your book you don't realize, like how much work goes into getting those things, what a big deal it is. Because when you're, when you're on the other side as a reader, it just you just think, oh, you know, you've got a sticker on your book. It's a bit annoying because now I've got to peel it off my book, but you just don't think about it. But when you're on the other side you're like, oh, this isn't as easy. This isn't just like a tick box thing. This is like a lot of effort has gone into this.
Speaker 1:There's a lot going on behind the scenes to make this possible oh my god, so much effort, like I, I have to say like hats off to like the editors and publicists and the market people, like it is I think it's just screaming into the void. I mean actually a publicist used that phrase like screaming into the void. I think there's just like so much work goes in for like you know, know, things that often don't pay off and then you know, you're just kind of like banging on people's doors and actually my editor has been really good at like when we talk on the phone. She's really good at being like OK, I realize that we're talking about this thing. You don't really know what this means. I'll explain it to you and that's really helped because she's like oh, I realized that like we're all here like kind of clinking glasses and celebrating, and you're over there and you don't actually know that.
Speaker 2:X, y and.
Speaker 1:Z is a really good thing and I'm like, oh no, I have no clue, so she's been good at kind of slowing it down and just like walking you through things, but it does remind me like it's really funny, like when it's really funny, like when I was pregnant with my daughter, like you know, like you get those pregnancy apps and it tracks that like week by week and like it'll tell you how your baby is developing, and I remember getting like texts from this app being like notifications, being like, oh, your daughter has eyelids now, and I'm like what, my daughter didn't have eyelids before. Like it's just crazy. And I feel like that with publishing they're like, oh, this thing happened. You're like, oh, this thing happened.
Speaker 2:You're like, wait, that wasn't happening before, like I don't know, I'm just constantly surprised by like I just go, you assume a lot, you assume things are just done and they just happen, and it doesn't, I know.
Speaker 1:No, it doesn't, and it's like it's. And I think you can be. Maybe I don't know, I'm so new to this that I'd like have no advice, but I think for me, being too involved in the kind of like the ghost in the machine, like the inner workings, drives me up the wall, because I think you start to feel like you can control it as a writer, like that you've got some control over like what happened and you just don't. I, from my perspective, I have. I think I've just had to kind of like have a back seat and be like, I don't know, I'll just wait until, I'll just get the news, you know, as it comes in and and that's fine, instead of kind of being like, oh, this person got this thing and this person got that thing, and why hasn't my book, you know? Because I think there's like literally no end to that and it would just make you really unhappy yeah, I think that's the route to madness.
Speaker 2:If you cons, if you're constantly just watching what's going on I say next door with you, with your writer neighbor you're constantly watching, you're constantly scrolling through social media to see what the local news is, you're constantly in these I say Facebook groups and WhatsApp groups like you need distance from it because you can, you can turn yourself mad yeah, and like everyone is probably looking at someone else being like, oh, I didn't get that thing, or they, you know, they said that person was the voice of a generation and they didn't say that about me.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean it's just like there's no, there's like no way into it. So I think, like I've, like my editor had asked me if I wanted to know about sales and things, and I was kind of like you know what? I just don't, because I have no idea what it means. Like I know that there are some writers who are like like really good advocates for themselves and they really feel like they need to be, and that's great and I think that's like obviously really works for them.
Speaker 1:But I just know personally that I'll absorb a lot of information, but I have no idea, like, how to parse it. So I'll like gather all this data and I'll just get really stressed out and I'm like I actually don't really know what any of this means. Um, in a larger context or and because so much of it is just like really dependent. It's like you look at numbers and you're just like, oh, but actually this doesn't count, library sales or whatever I don't know. I just and I know some people become real experts on that, but I'm just like I just can't yeah, I feel that way about royalty statements.
Speaker 2:The royalty statement will turn up and I'll read it and I'm like I have no idea. I have no. I'm like have I made money? That's all I need. I just need like a bullet point at the, at the top, saying you've made some money, here's your money when. I'm going through it when I'm like I, I don't know what any of this means. I'm just gonna just close the p PDF file.
Speaker 1:Well, I used to have to kind of process royalty statements back in the day and it was easy because most of them were zero. I mean, like people just don't run out. So I was like my heart would sink if anyone had made over zero pounds, because it meant that I would have to like figure out how to like. That almost never happened. It's just like.
Speaker 2:I think with the jigsaw man, one of the publishers, like every year, I got the royalty statement I'm not expecting any money because I just see. Eventually I'll see the zero. I'm like, okay, that's, it is what it is. That tells me what I need to know, all I need to know do I have money?
Speaker 1:nope, nope, moving on, it's fine let me close it.
Speaker 2:But, christelle, talking about moving on, we need to move on to your debut Idol Grounds. How excited well before I ask you to tell the listeners about Idlegrounds, how excited are you about your debut?
Speaker 1:uh, I'm very excited. Um, yeah, I am really excited. It's been up and down, but I'm um, yeah, I think I am happy with it because it's very much like the book that I wanted to write, if that makes any sense. It's like you know, it's probably not a book for everybody, but I'm and yeah, and I think it was made better by like the editing process and stuff. So I think it's something that like really benefited from like being published in that way, with like a team behind it and other eyes on it and things. So, yeah, I'm like really happy with the final product. Um, yeah, you don't.
Speaker 2:You don't realize, until I think your book is finished, like, how important it is to have a good editor, and an editor who can sometimes talk you down off the ridiculous ledge in which you've planted yourself, in which you're determined to stay, and you're like no, but we might have made this comment that was, that was actually a good thing and that that's invaluable. But you don't see it. When you're editing, you're like what? Why are you asking me these questions? This is what. This is the scene I want well, that, I think, for mine.
Speaker 1:So my agent and my editors, and both in the US and UK, were like they were all really great and they're all really different, like they focus on really different things. But what, what they were really really good at was being like look, where are we, what time is it? You know, just like really basic narrative markers to kind of, because obviously when you're writing you're like, well, it's obviously noon.
Speaker 1:Like in your head you kind of know and you need to steer the writer I mean, sorry, the reader. Otherwise, it's like, especially in this book, because it all takes place over one day. It's like, especially in this book, because it all takes place over one day, it's like the fact that it's almost dinner time is actually really important. So just kind of getting those like real world, like practical things nailed down, that was something that was so helpful and I just 100% would not have been able to do on my own because I had no objectivity. You know, I was like it was so in my own head. I was like, oh, it's obvious, but it definitely wasn't.
Speaker 2:I was like it was so in my own head I was like, oh, it's obvious, but it definitely wasn't. So it was really good. But you're so right, because even with my book that I'm editing now, and in my head I know that the major events of the book start on a Monday, and then I know what day they're going to arrest someone. So in my head I know that, but I didn't. It wasn't until I'm doing my edits and I'm seeing the comments for my, for my editor like it's Tuesday the 19th. I'm like, but isn't it obvious? I'm like, no, it's not obvious. So now I need to make that point obvious.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's almost like you almost never read a book where you're like, oh, they mentioned the time too much. You know what I mean. Like it's always the opposite problem where you're like oh my god, where the hell are we? Like, what like?
Speaker 1:and yeah yeah, these kind of footholds are really, really important, and you can only see that from the editing. Like, as an outsider, I think it's just really hard for it for writers to do that themselves, so yeah, well, christelle, would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about Idle Grounds?
Speaker 2:And then I want to ask you two questions following on from that.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so Idle Grounds is a kind of literary fiction, kind of I don't know.
Speaker 1:We've been selling it as Northern Gothic story about a group of young cousins who are at their family's house on a summer's day in 1989 in New England and, like the littlest one amongst them sees something disturbing on the front lawn, something that she can't quite explain, and she panics and she bolts, and the rest of the story is like from the point of view of the kids as they search across their family property and then into the woods for this little girl.
Speaker 1:And, like throughout the book, the parents of view of the kids as they search across their family property and then into the woods for this little girl. And like throughout the book, the parents are out on the deck kind of arguing about old grievances and there's like this mystery surrounding the grandmother's death years before, and they're kind of pointing fingers and and they always get caught up in this one kind of trauma that keeps resurfacing from their own past. So they're completely ignoring what the kids are up to and the main drama kind of centers around these kids who are looking for this little girl okay, right, so this is the first question from the book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did you face any challenges when writing idle grounds?
Speaker 1:yes. So I mean I wrote it pretty quickly and so in terms so it's a very like voice led book, I think, because it's kind of almost narrated by like a Greek chorus of cousins and and the voice kind of presented itself fairly fully formed, and that's sort of what I followed throughout the book and I wrote it pretty much chronologically. I did face some challenges, um, especially around the middle of the book, because basically the whole drama of the book centers like it's kind of from the point of view of the kids and there's something that's maybe supernatural, maybe not, kind of stalking them across the family grounds. But it has to be that balance has to be preserved, like is this real, is it not? And so all the drama almost has to come like internally from the kids as they interact with each other and their environment has become kind of glitchy and like deranged. But you're never quite sure as a reader if it's something that is just purely from their imagination or if there's something really kind of like sinister at work. And so I think, like trying to create like a dramatic arc around something that's mostly internal was probably the biggest challenge, and that kind of happens around the middle.
Speaker 1:And so I think, because otherwise, like you're like, oh, it's just like this thing happened and then this thing happened and then this thing happened, and I think it was trying to reorder them so that there felt like there was like rising action and and I'd never really read, like I'd never really written, you know, I don't, I didn't write to like a plan, so it wasn't like a plans novel at all. And then about about halfway through I knew how the book would end. But I think it was that, yeah, just kind of keeping up the pace, keep like ratcheting up the tension and making sure that the kind of like emotional stakes got raised as well. Um, again, when it's just kids mucking around in the woods, I think that was like, yeah, that kind of um, it was more of a structural issue than anything else. So I think that was the big thing we ended up working on. It was probably my biggest challenge, I would say okay.
Speaker 2:So if you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters, whom would you choose and why?
Speaker 1:uh, that's a really good question. So it's kind of an awkward question because some of the characters are based on real people. So it's in a nice way, actually In a nice way. I really loved Owen. So he's the wee boy who he's not the youngest in the book but he's kind of like he and his sister are sort of the heart and soul of that group and throughout the book he carries two eggs, chicken eggs that he's like taken from the chicken coop, and so he's kind of like maybe the purest soul amongst like all the kids. So I think maybe Owen and and his sister Autumn as well. But yeah, owen, I would say Owen, he's cute, he's cute okay.
Speaker 2:so Christelle, the last set questions Are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:That is a really good question. I think I'm a hybrid, but like a forced hybrid. So I'm probably like. I just remember growing up it was not, I don't know. It's like you're either an extrovert or it was like a diagnosis of being an introvert, like it wasn't like you know, you're just kind of like, like so I think I'm an introvert who's like forced to be an extrovert, like I've kind of made myself be more extroverted over the years, so now kind of grafted on but like, yeah, probably at heart an introvert, okay so what challenge or experience and I say can be good or bad in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:Definitely having kids and just like the lack of time after having kids, um, but I think it's been kind of good for my writing in a way, because I think when I had lots and lots of time, I probably didn't use it that wisely and now that I have not very much time at all, it feels like so precious to me, um, that I feel like I'm just much better at like time management basically, and I feel like there's just more energy when I'm writing than there was before. And also, just maybe having kids makes you realize that like you can just kind of tough out almost anything like, um, yeah, sleep deprivation and all that stuff you can kind of just if you can grit your teeth and make it through, and I think that's probably quite a good lesson for writing okay.
Speaker 2:So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:okay, I've been thinking about this. Um, I think my big piece of advice would be to just like concentrate on yourself and to not worry about yeah, basically you're always competing against yourself, like that's the best you can do. And like to kind of focus on the work because, like, no matter what kind of accolades or what like shiny prizes you get for the work, it like I don't know the happiness lasts about 45 minutes. You know what I mean. Like it's so, it fades so quickly, and I think that if you learn to love the work for itself, like that you'll always have and no one can take that away from you, and and it will make your work better as well, because you're not writing for like a market. You're not, you know, you really are writing for yourself, um, and I think like that is really powerful. Just kind of know. Anyway, again, this is advice I would just give to myself now. It's not necessarily advice that I've like taken in my clearer moments.
Speaker 1:I know that that's true.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think that's, that's probably it no, but it's such good advice because I said, we can spend so much time and lose so much time focusing on other people and competing against them. Really, we should just be looking at just focusing on ourselves and looking at ourselves as our competition. So, yeah, this next book is going to be better than the last book I wrote, not the last book that Tina I don't know who Tina is but the last book that Tina wrote and her damn book club sticker.
Speaker 2:Yeah all right. So, christelle, here's my new one. What is your non-writing tip for writers? So I always have to qualify for saying it could be drink water.
Speaker 1:I don't know uh, I've heard, do you know what? I heard you? I heard you ask this on a recent one. I was like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get a really good answer to this and I've actually not managed it. I think probably drink water is something that I've learned like. Actually, here's my advice.
Speaker 1:I think like when I was younger, I was really good at ignoring all advice, like I just didn't take it on board and like the older I get, the more I realized that, like advice is really handy. It just takes me years to kind of like be like, oh, that person who told me that thing when I was 22 was completely right, and I guess you have to just arrive there on your own terms. But I really wish that I had listened to any advice at all when I was 25, because it would have saved me a lot of heartache, and I don't know if, like, you can take those shortcuts. But even drink water like I didn't, I just drank like full fat coke until I was sort of like 28 and like I would have felt so much better if I'd been drinking water instead of fat coke. So like, yeah, drink water, listen to advice, period.
Speaker 2:That's probably my advice it's a drink, what was a good one? Because I and it's so silly. It's kind of like I even like prided myself on the fact that I don't drink a lot of water like I never used to, and then now I'm like what was I thinking? Like you need to, you need to be hydrated, hydration, you really do?
Speaker 1:you really do need to be hydrated. I feel so like I forget sometimes and I just feel like a salted slug and I feel really tired and then I have a glass of water and it really cuts me out. It's so basic and it's so free, so it's like, yeah, drink water.
Speaker 2:That is, yeah, that's my advice for writers and non-writers that like yeah oh and finally, crystal, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:And so I'm on. Oh God, I'm on Instagram. I don't post very much, to be honest, and at the moment I'm just one of those like really obnoxious people who's just putting stuff up about my book. So I really apologize for that. It's just awful.
Speaker 1:I'm going to have to apologize, I just can't think of anything else to put up there, but yeah, so that's it. So if I just can't think of anything else to put up there, but yeah, so, so that's it. So if you want to hear updates about my book, it's on Instagram, and I have a website as well, which I'm also not great at updating, but I'm trying to be better at kind of keeping up to date yeah, I need to be better at mine.
Speaker 2:I keep thinking I've got to update the events page.
Speaker 1:I'm like oh, I've got one event. I'm really excited about the one event. I've got up there and it's like it'll be a good event. It's next week. I'm at Bard Books in London and they've got a panel of debuts. It'll be really lovely. But I'm like, oh, I've got to, yeah, I've got to populate that page. It feels really sad. It's just the one event.
Speaker 2:But I just don't, I don't have it me at the moment. So you'll get there, you'll get there, yeah. So that just leaves me, christelle Bamford, to say thank you so much for being part of the conversation oh thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadinemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
