The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Niloufar Lamakan: The Sliding Doors of A Creative Life
What happens when you dare to change direction in your 50s? Niloufar Lamakan's creative journey is nothing short of extraordinary. Transitioning from economics and technology to award-winning interior design and published fiction, all beginning in her late 40s.
Her debut novel "Aged to Perfection" features a 60-year-old protagonist navigating dating and sexuality, what Niloufar calls "a rebel yell for older women to say don't write us off." For anyone contemplating a creative shift later in life, Niloufar's story proves it's never too late to reinvent yourself.
Sophia is determined to grow old disgracefully and refuses to be invisible. She craves fiery passion and steamy romance, not targeted ads for funeral plans. After a heart-shattering breakup, she ditches love to date a new man each week for a year.
As she flirts, fumbles and sips fizz through an array of encounters, from an opera buff in a cape to an orgasm whisperer, she discovers it's never too late to rewrite your own love story, even if it's not the one you expected…
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But then there was another twist. I'm blowing my own horn here, but I love entering competitions because I think they A they help you. If you get shortlisted, it gives you a boost and it's always good to be able to say I was shortlisted for a particular competition.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you're enjoying your week. And, yes, you are getting another episode this week and this is the penultimate episode of season three of the podcast. Next Tuesday will be our final episode of season three, but I will not be leaving you empty-handed while I go on hiatus I love saying that word hiatus when we go on our summer break. There will be extra episodes, there'll be cross episodes from my partners, page One, the Writers Podcast, and I'll also be giving you some flashbacks and the best of season three throughout the summer. So you won't be alone. I will still be here and you know I'm on social media, so if you'd like to get in touch with me on social media, all of the links are in the show notes. So feel free to send me DMs, send me comments, tell me what you like about the podcast, who you would like to see as a guest on season four of the podcast, and I will always get back to you. And before I go on with the show, I'd just like to thank all of the listeners, everyone who has supported the podcast, either through subscribing to Patreon or by buying me a cup of coffee, or simply just saying hello and saying how much you enjoy the podcast when I met you in person at Harrogate last week, or by sending me messages. I really, really, really appreciate it. So I just want to say thank you. Right, let's get on with the show.
Speaker 2:Today, I'm in conversation with Niloufar Lamakan, who is an Iranian-born author, interior designer and artist. Her debut novels, age to Perfection won the Commendation Award at the Comedy women in print prize and was a finalist at the page turner award, and her novel age to perfection is available now and in our conversation, nilifa lamakan and I talk about the key to unlocking your creative potential ai and the creative process, and how age perception shapes our lives and choices. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Niloufar Lamakan, welcome to the Conversation.
Speaker 1:Hello, lovely to meet you and chat with you.
Speaker 2:I'm so looking forward to our chat, because we were having a quick chat before and I was like no, no, no, no, we need to save this. We need to save this for the recording there's always so much to say, isn't there?
Speaker 2:there is. I think, when you get two writers, or not even just two writers, two creative people in a room, there's I always thought there's so much stuff that goes on behind the scenes of what we do, behind the scenes of what I work, a wealth of sorry, of our work that when you become, when you get together with another creative person, you're like oh, let's talk, let me tell you about this and it's someone who understands what you go through, because when I talk to people who are not in the world, like all my family, they're just astounded and they go things like does it always take this long, or is it just you that's taking a long time?
Speaker 2:no, it really takes a long time to do anything in publishing it's so fun, I mean I will ask you a question about yourself. But just talking about the length of time that things take, just the publishing process, how you can have, you know, finish a draft of a book and let's say, you sign with an agent, you get your publishing deal that that book may not be on the shelf for two years, even though you have in. I say in theory, you, you have finished the book. And I was on um a little while ago.
Speaker 2:I was on friends and there was a. There's a um, I say a content creator on there who's a writer and apparently chat gpt went down yesterday. I had no idea about this. So chat gpt went down yesterday and there were people complaining that they couldn't do their research for their books and he was saying that's because you are not a writer. If you're needing chat gpt, you're looking. You're not in the business of writing a book, you just want to have, like, call yourself a writer and have a product but oh, no, I don't agree with that.
Speaker 1:No, it depends on. It depends on what you use it for. I think most people immediately think you shouldn't be using chat GPT to write, and I agree with that because, as creatives, it should be our story and it should be told in our voice. However, there are lots of other things you can use it for, um, for example, whereas I before I used to I shouldn't say this, but I used, I used to like talk to another writer or a just to help me get my ideas into shape and sort of give some order to the mess that might have been in my head, yeah, and I use it for brainstorming.
Speaker 2:So when you use it, do you, are you because I don't know, are you just speak, saying to it? These are my ideas, this is what I'm thinking. Can you just put it in order for me?
Speaker 1:depends on what you want to do. Really, it's very good at um, giving critiquing work. Um, in fact, I I gave it my whole book a while back and it came back with exactly the same comments as an editor had done. You put your whole book in there, I did.
Speaker 2:And you said it gave you the same comment as a real life editor. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I definitely don't think you can cut out editors and you know people in the business. I don't think you can do it all, but I think it does help you through some of the steps to move forward. I don't use it for actually writing, but sometimes you can get it to help you just brainstorm things thing. I'm thinking of doing this. How does it sound? Does it come across like this?
Speaker 2:or you know things like that so do you use it in place of having an actual person in front of you? So if you had, if you had, a writer friend in front of you who easily, who's readily accessible to you, would you? Are you saying you're using chat gpt in place of that person not being readily available to you?
Speaker 1:I don't know if I'm putting it right but no, no, no, I understand what you mean I think you can do? Um, I think it will. Your book will get to a point where you will need an editor to look at it. You still need the human touch, um, but especially at the early stages, I find it quite good for brainstorming yeah, because I was going to say it doesn't.
Speaker 2:Irrespective of what point I'm saying, you use it, you or you choose to use it, you still need that. You need that human voice, don't't you? You do, because it will never be able to replicate that human authenticity.
Speaker 1:Never say never. The way it's moving is really scary.
Speaker 2:You see, when you say scary, I just think of Terminator 2. See, that's where my brain goes.
Speaker 1:I think people are scared of it and I think we should be scared of it. I think it could do a lot of good. It could help us in all sorts of areas, you know, to help humans. But it can also be used for evil, and I think it is already being used for evil. And that's where the problem lies is having some sort of control, because otherwise we've got a few men globally who just run these things, you know, and we're going along, we're all getting sucked into it, and that is very scary to me. And unfortunately, governments are always a bit behind and never have the money to spend on the, the brains who work these things out, to counteract what these companies are doing.
Speaker 2:I think my issue, one of my issues with it is, is that is when, which is what the content creator was saying. I can't remember his name, but what he was saying is that when you're using it in in place of research, because majority of the time what is spewing out is not accurate and I've seen it with um, I saved the baby lawyers because I teach legal research as well and because you know I'm old, I say old school, I'm a traditionalist. Let's say that I'm a traditionalist. So I tell them you are not to go, because I can tell you're not to go to chat GPT for your research, because it's going to give you the wrong case law, it's going to give you the wrong statute. You need to do your research properly, even if that means going back down to basics and going down to the library and physically going for aged statute books because there's going to be a level of inaccuracy oh, definitely, I mean it's getting a bit better.
Speaker 1:But there's a word for it which is called hallucination, and they do hallucinate, ais, and just give you rubbish. And if you don't know what you're doing, then, uh, you know, I was. I was researching, trying to research some statistics around women reading rom-coms and what sort of age groups read what type of books, and it came back with this fantastic report with all the statistics and I thought, gosh, this is really good. So I went back and said can you tell me what your sources were? And it came back and said oh sorry, I actually made them up. There is no research, because I asked my publisher and they didn't have any specific research and it just made it up. So if you then take that as gospel, you could really get yourself into trouble.
Speaker 2:Well, you'll get yourself into a lot of trouble. So where would you go? So you write romantic, you remind you write romantic comedies. So where would you get that information from the stats in terms of who's?
Speaker 1:you know the age groups that are reading, well, there isn't much, because I did ask my publisher because I wanted to do a pitch, um to appear on a program, excuse me, and um, I asked them and they, they sent me. There is some information, but not specifically what I wanted. It just it doesn't exist. I I wanted to know because my protagonist is older and she has sex, which you know doesn't always happen when you've got an older protagonist in books, because apparently we're all supposed to go off the idea. So, yeah, so I wanted to see what the stats were around that and how people you know how women read and whether they like to read about things like that or whether they like to read just about friendships, which some of the research shows when you get to that age. But there isn't any, there isn't much. It's a good idea to do something, I think, for somebody, somebody out there this is.
Speaker 2:This is the thing why I feel like you know you should put chat in in a situation like that, when you're looking, when you need the information for market research purposes, that's when you need to put chat, gpt, whatever ai search engine, to the side and I'm going to say get out on the street, meet people. But the thing is, people are. People will talk to you, people will answer I mean, you know, within reason, as long as you're not asking them to give all their personal details. But then again, then again, some people might want to give you all their personal details, but people will give you the information, they will answer and you'll get such a much more richer, authentic and response like being out on the street. It's like vox pox, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah I mean anything like that if the research doesn't exist, then gpt can't give it to you, um, so therefore you have to do your own research and then it'll learn from that. So, yeah, maybe I should.
Speaker 2:I should do a bit of that I think so because I think it's the learn. I think it's chat, gpt and all the other ones, I don't know learning from you, which is what disturbs people, because it's you know it's your, it's your content, your whoever, mike's content, that it's learning, learning from and replicating. But yeah Well.
Speaker 1:I consulted friends and acquaintances around when I did my research for my book. Yeah, and you know, some of the older women who are portrayed, especially in rom-coms, are so different from anyone I know. You know, everyone I know is still really active and, um, you know, living, living a full life and not thinking of themselves as old well, you never do, don't you?
Speaker 2:you don't think in your head unless something physically starts hurting. You don't think of yourself as being old. You always see yourself in a certain age bracket in your head until someone, until you're forced to tick the box or I don't know. You're scrolling, you've got your uber eats delivery and you're having to scroll through the age wheel of fortune to find your date of birth, because it starts with 19, and then poor man is still scrolling. You've read my book, I've read your book and I had my own experience. So, nelopo, let me ask you about your creative journey. This is my question. It wasn't necessarily. I always normally ask you know about your writing journey or your publishing journey, but I'm going to ask about your creative journey Because you didn't, because you're a screenwriter, interior designer as well as an author, but you didn't get into any of these things until I don't even like even saying it. But later on In life, yeah To like your 40s, I think.
Speaker 1:In my late 40s, early 50s, I just I was working up until then. I'd always had a salaried job. I never thought of myself as having a business acumen and I just wanted the safety of a salaried job. And I'm single, so I've got my mortgage to pay and all of that, so I like the safety of it. However, I don't know whether it's because I'm older and more confident I left a job which was a secure job and and well-paid job, because it just didn't do it for me anymore and I had always intended to go back and go back in the same field. That was when I was working in technology and then one of my cousins swears that she put the idea in my head. I don't remember it. She said to me you've always been very creative, why don't you try doing something else? And that was when I thought well, why not? I'm going to go and do some interior design courses because I love interior design and I couldn't afford to do a whole course for a year because, well, I wouldn't have been earning, there would have been fees and everything else. So I just did short one-day courses here and there and a couple of one-week courses at Central St Martins and I came out armed with that knowledge. I thought I can learn the rest.
Speaker 1:And I was lucky that one my cousin had just bought a house. Well, they, they bought a house a while back which I helped them find, and just as I decided to set up my interior design business, he decided to refurbish his house. So he said, look, it's your first project. You can come and work on it. I'm not going to pay for you and if I don't like it I'm going to tell you. And I said, fine, that's fine, I need a break. So he said, you can do my kitchen. So I did the kitchen and it went really well.
Speaker 1:And we were having a conversation one night and he said so, you haven't done anything about the bathrooms yet. And I said, well, I didn't know I was doing the bathrooms. So, anyway, I ended up helping them with the whole house and he's an architect. So, oh, really, yeah, tough, tough client to have, because he obviously had his own ideas, um, but I think they were happy with the results and, um, yeah, in the end I I ended up having it. I had it photographed professionally because I needed good photos to set up my website and I entered it for an international design awards which is held in LA, and didn't hear back. Nothing came of it and months later I thought I'm going to just go and have a look on their website to see who won, you know, and I go in there. I won second prize. I'm serious, I could not believe it. Something had gone wrong with their system and I didn't get an email to tell me. And there was my project and it's full glory with all the pictures.
Speaker 2:Second prize of interior design that was just amazing amazing if you hadn't decided to just go and check just to see who had won randomly. If you hadn't have done that, you would have been none of the wiser. Well, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I know, I don't know what went wrong, um, but then there was another twist. Um, I'm blowing my own horn here, but I love entering competitions because I think they a. They help you if you get shortlisted.
Speaker 1:It gives you a and it's always good to be able to say I was shortlisted for a particular competition. So I entered another competition which was held here and that was for a bathroom, I think, and I got shortlisted for that and they had like a gala evening with dinner and everything at lord's, which was brilliant. And uh, guess what? The date of that was the same date as the gala dinner in la.
Speaker 1:I need to speak because I'm just sitting there opening my mouth and I thought, um, shall I go to la because I've got cousins who live there but I could go and stay with them. Shall I go to LA? And then I thought, well, I know I've won second prize in that already, and the gala is just to go and meet people. You know, everyone knows who's won already, and I think it was delayed for some reason. And I thought but this one in London, I don't know, I might win, you know, you never know. So I decided not to go to LA and I went to this one. I didn't win, but I got given my little certificate and had my photo taken by George Clark, so that was very nice.
Speaker 2:Oh, the houses guy. Yeah, yeah, I say the houses guy. Those who watch Channel 4, they know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, do you believe in fate and serendipity and all of these, and synchronicity, do you? You believe in that?
Speaker 1:I think yeah, I mean I've been talking about having sliding doors moments. Yeah, I've had. I've had a few of those since since I mostly since I uh gave up my salary job I think I've had, uh, where I've made one decision that's really impacted the rest of my life yeah um.
Speaker 1:Shall I give you an example? Yeah, I um. Yeah, when I was looking for an IT job, I was. Uh, I was offered. Um, I went for an IT job. I was, I was offered. I went for an interview in a hospital and I was offered a job there.
Speaker 1:I really didn't like the, the ambience and the feeling, the vibes they gave off, but it was a good job, well paid. And then I got an agent contact me and say I've got this other job for you and it's just for three months but really well paid. And I thought I didn't me and say I've got this other job for you and it's just for three months but really well paid. And I thought I didn't like the other one, I'm going to take a risk. I remember standing.
Speaker 1:I was on holiday in France, I was shopping in Zara. I get the call and I just go, just go for it. No, I'll go for the temporary job, said no to the others. The three months turned into nearly three years at a very good rate, which allowed me to pay off most of my mortgage. And if I hadn't done that, when it came to doing my property development, which was the next stage, I wouldn't have had the money. I wouldn't have had any money behind me to be able to do that, and just making that one decision made such a massive difference to my life. I would not be where I am now if I hadn't.
Speaker 2:If I'd taken that other job, I'd be in a completely different place when you, you know, sitting where you are now, when you look back at those moments in your life when they are like significant, pivotal moments, do you ever? Has it ever crossed your mind that you should have made that decision to transition onto this creative path earlier, or you're just glad it happened when it happened? That's the way it was supposed to happen?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm a very positive person and I try and look to the future. So, no, I think I'm just very happy with how it's gone along, because when I was younger, I wanted to be a fashion designer and I wanted to go to university and study fashion design, but my parents, being Iranian and very typical of immigrant parents said that's not a proper job, you can't, you can't do that. So I ended up studying economics.
Speaker 2:Don't know why, but just fell into it but it's what you think it can lead on to. So when you do come from a family of immigrants and I always find it difficult to say family of immigrants because you don't feel like an immigrant when it's your family's only other people telling you that but when you do come from that sort of background, the number one of background, the number one item on the agenda, is stability, and that's economic stability. It's god, I must say, stability and health, it's just stability, all the way down the list.
Speaker 1:So it makes sense why you would go and pursue economics yeah, I mean, I don't know what it's like with your family, but my family was yet a doctor or a scientist or an engineer. Those are the jobs, and maybe not so much lawyer with Iranians, I don't know why. So in a way, economics was a compromise between a creative. It was sort of social science. I didn't want to do science, I didn't want to do science, I didn't want to do maths but if you're.
Speaker 2:But it comes down to what your family, if your family, if you know, if your mum is talking to your auntie and they say what is Niloufar doing? Oh, economics, in their head they know, okay, economics. They're thinking maybe money, she can go and be an accountant, so that, like, the path is clear.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly yeah, whereas fashion seemed a lot more precarious. And a few years back, my parents actually said to me you know, we look back and we're really sorry we didn't let you do it. I know it's very emotional and I said no because I might have gone into it and I might have been rubbish at it. We'll never know. So no, you know, I I did very well in my career and now I'm doing something creative and that that's fine. You know not gonna regret anything.
Speaker 2:No, it's good not to live with regrets, but how did you manage, like that career, that creativity in you when you were doing the, when you were doing the safe job? Was it like a cat scratching at the door? Wasn't it like irritating because you know it's there?
Speaker 1:uh, I think I just bought a lot of clothes I used to make clothes and I was really good at it I mean like proper suits with lining and you know interlining and everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I used to do it really well. But then that sort of culture stopped after a while, because you used to be able to go into John Lewis and there'd be like rows and rows of fantastic fabrics to choose from, and then over the years that got more and more limited. Yeah, but I used to love making something that I had designed myself and wore it and people liked it. Um, in fact, I remember making myself this beautiful dress. I think it must have been in the late 80s and it was black velvet and I had this gold trim on it and it had this gorgeous pattern at the front with gold cord sewn onto it. But I wore it a few times though I don't want to wear it anymore and gave it to the charity shop.
Speaker 1:And my cousin said I went past Oxfam the other day and your dress was in the window and they'd made like a big feature of it. And why did you give it to charity shop? You could have given it to me. And I said said well, I don't, I didn't know whether you'd like it. And I said well, did you buy it? You know she said no.
Speaker 1:I went in. I couldn't afford it.
Speaker 2:It was too expensive oh, wow, because they put it well, it's bespoke, isn't it? Of course, yes, what would you know when, having gone through all of these experiences of you know living that I say the traditional, stable life, even though you've got this like a creative, it's more than a creative spark burning away inside of you. What would you say to someone who's in that same position now and they're wondering because you spend you can waste so much time questioning and saying should I do this, should I not do this? And let me just say stay in my safe little pocket. What would you say to them? Because I'm an enabler, I would just say to them go and do it, yeah.
Speaker 1:I, I would too, I would. I would have a proviso. I was in a lucky position of having some financial stability and being able to take that risk without risking my home, for example although no, I did risk my home because I've got a mortgage on it. But yeah, if you're lucky enough to be in that position where you're not going to like lose everything you know, if you've got dependents and um, then absolutely go for it, absolutely what do you do, though?
Speaker 2:what if you do have the dependents and the mortgage and the dog and the mother-in-law living with you? What have you got all? What have you got all of these things?
Speaker 1:I think you can always find the creative outlet somewhere else. Definitely. Do you know what? When I worked in technology, at one point I said I wanted to learn to do a bit of coding, because I wasn't a techie person, I was more into the information management and project management side, but I said I wanted to develop my skills. So they let me, you know, learn. And I started building this database and I found so much creativity doing that. I remember sitting there thinking this is actually really creative to be doing this, whereas people think of it as a technical, scientific thing to do so. I think you can always find an outlet, even if it's not what you do for a job.
Speaker 2:You can satisfy that urge by doing something creative as a side hustle or as a hobby yeah, you know, when you've had all you know, you go through all these moments in your life and said I know, you said you say you don't look back. But when you are looking back for all these moments and then the chances you took and the awards that were given to you didn't even know about it. When you look at all those moments, what has all that taught you about yourself?
Speaker 1:um, I think it's just it's made me more confident in myself. Um, you just think, well, I can do it. I tried it and and I found out I can do it. So it sort of emboldens you to try other things. Um, you know, I I was producing art for a while. I I didn't get that far with it as I have with other careers, um, but I had this thing when I started using my interior design tools, like my some fabric samples and my uh, planning software, all of those to produce art. Yeah, um and uh, I still like to maybe go back to that at some point, but didn't. Maybe I don't know if I didn't put enough effort into it and it's it's a very difficult area to get into without having the contacts, definitely, um, so so, yeah, it's nice.
Speaker 2:I forgot what your question was that's all right, because I was just I was sitting there thinking. But you know, I think your journey um tells people, I think it tells them that not to be so fixated on the outcome, because if you would be sitting there like fixated on that original you know that initial application you made to um, the interior design competition, the one that you didn't know that you came second place but if you just remained fixated on waiting for that outcome, you probably wouldn't have gone on to do the other things and then when you did find out you were second place, you're like, oh, that's cool, for some people can be so dependent on the outcome. It stops them from doing anything.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, you do also have to tell yourself that you could fail and be okay with that and just say you know entrepreneurs, they always. You know, if you have that spirit in you, you will have businesses that will fail. But what you do is you learn from them and move on. And I think when you go into it you have to talk to yourself and say be prepared, it might not work. And then you then sort of don't have quite as much riding on it because you know that it's possible and you face that possibility and think about what will I do if it doesn't work? How long do I give it before I decide it's not working? You need to work all of that out before you jump in, I think.
Speaker 2:Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. Now, I'm a strong believer that failure is never a wasted experience. Sometimes it forces you to sit back and reassess things and then decide where your path is going to be, but you'll always learn from it. I mean, it's never nice. No one wants to go through it. No one wants to be told that, well, we don't want you or we don't think that it's good enough, but you will. You will learn from it. And then the the challenge. And the challenge then is what you do afterwards yeah, I absolutely agree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, you can always learn and in business it can be really brutal. You know, like setting up as an interior designer, you know, if I didn't get the work, it's very hard to get work when you start out and people just may not come to you and you know you could put in a lot of energy and time and nothing happens. You don don't earn any money, you don't get any clients and it would be, yeah, really heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:So when did the writing start? Because now we've done the interior design, we've done the art, you've got your certificate, you made your dresses. So when did the next, you know, the next detour in your path take place?
Speaker 1:Well, I love trying new things and being in London, you know you've got so many different colleges. You've got City Lit, that does amazing courses, university of Arts, all of those. I'm always doing courses because I like learning and trying new things. So I booked myself onto a City Lit creative writing course. I think it was a week or something like that. And, yeah, so that's when I started writing and I'd never had any ambition to write before, so I just tried it and thought, oh, I quite enjoyed that. And then a couple of months later, I saw another course. So I'll try that as well.
Speaker 1:You know, everyone does a memoir course, uh, course, because they think they can write a memoir of their lives, and I was no different. I thought, oh, maybe I could write something like that. So I did a memoir course as well. And this is another one of my sliding doors moments, in that I met someone at one of these courses and you know we had lunch together, I think got on and said, oh, we must have a coffee sometime. Course Course finished and nothing happened. You know as things go.
Speaker 1:And then it was a good few months later. I thought, no, I really should contact this person because she's, you know, she seemed really nice and it would be nice to make a new friend. So I called her and we went for a coffee and she told me about this class that she goes to on a weekly creative writing class. So I contacted the teacher and said can I join in? And she said yes. So I then started doing creative writing every week and this went on for a bit and every week she would say to us what projects are you working on?
Speaker 1:and everyone would go no one had anything, and yeah, and after a while I thought, oh god, maybe I should have a good, I should have a project. You know, maybe I should start writing something and I did. I did find that a lot of the stuff I wrote in class people really laughed at it not not in a bad way, but they did, you know.
Speaker 2:You know not at you, with you yeah.
Speaker 1:So it was comedic and, um, I thought, well, maybe I have a knack for this. And uh, that's when the spark sort of went off in my head in terms of doing something. And I had a chat with my teacher, who was absolutely brilliant, and she said to just try it. She gave me some advice, so I started writing around. I think it was sort of January 2020.
Speaker 1:And initially I was just writing a couple of hours a week and then the pandemic happened and I had a lot more time and it gave me a good focus because I live on my own and I was, you know, I was on my own for that whole time. And, yeah, I started writing and before I knew it, it was three or four, five hours a day. And uh, yeah, I would like write it and I would send it to my teacher and she would read it and give me feedback. And at one point I had to say to her um, I know I have a lot to learn and I know it's not very good at the moment, but please give me some positive feedback too, because otherwise I might stop writing. But I mean, she was absolutely right, because I look back at what I'd written at that time, and it was just complete gibberish.
Speaker 2:I had no idea what I was doing but you learn, yeah, I don't think there's one writer who doesn't look back at their very, very early work and say to themselves what on earth was this the first book? I say book. Well, it was a book, the first book I wrote. And you know it's the first draft and when everyone asks I always say I had no business whatsoever sending out a first draft. But you're so pleased to finish a book and you know there's a story there and you know your friends have told you that they like it. But that's not good. You know that's not enough just because your mate said it's good and um, you know I sent it off and the rejections came through. I'm like clockwork. But you, you need to go through that baptism of fire. But every writer's had that experience. And you look back at it now. I think I wrote that back in like early 2000. So 2002 and three, and I look back. When I did look back, I was like what on earth? This is terrible. It's a story.
Speaker 1:How long did it take you to get a yes on that one?
Speaker 2:I know I never got a yes on it, and this is the thing I mean. God, I was still sending it out because I think I start I was working at the BBC when I started it, so that must be about 2002 and I didn't finish it until I qualified, or just before I qualified as a solicitor. Actually, I think before I qualified I said I finished it. So we're talking about 2005, 2006. I finished it and you know I'm sending it out to all and sundry and it's just landing back on my doorstep. But it wasn't until what? Another 10 years, no more than that, 12 years before I got a yes on something which was then my book, the jigsaw man. So it was a long process so.
Speaker 1:So this is it. I mean, I think if you're a writer, you have to be so persistent and determined um, it was so easy to you know. Get to rejection number 30 and say, well, this isn't going to work.
Speaker 2:I'm going to give up yeah it can happen. It can happen, I had.
Speaker 2:I had 42 rejections for this one see, now I'm wishing I kept a tally of them because you know, you know your number and I spent far because I've been off sick. That's why I've spent so much time on Instagram and social media. But there I've watched this woman. She printed out all her rejection I can't remember what author it was and she laid them all out along her hallway and it's a long hallway and you know, if you go back it's crazy. And if you go back for episodes of this podcast, there are loads of authors who can tell you the number of rejections they had before they got that. Yes, and I'm thinking I should have. Just I should have checked the note. It was definitely more than that.
Speaker 1:I'm counting the silences as well, because you don't always get a rejection. Oh yeah, you don't always yeah, you don't.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's just nothing, and sometimes silence is an answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, silence is a complete answer. I keep everything. I keep like files on everything. I'm quite organized in that way, so I I have all of the folders for each of the people that I or the organizations I've sent it to, and what I sent to them, and the version of the, the uh, what I put in the pitch, and the version of the synopsis and everything.
Speaker 2:That's how I can count them yeah, did you ever, um, did you ever have to deal with imposter syndrome, not just with the writing, but with the interior design and then the art, for all of those creative avenues? Was it something you had to deal with, or was it just never just crossed your path at all?
Speaker 1:um, I should say, I know, I didn't think that way it. It just makes me sound very arrogant.
Speaker 2:No, it doesn't. Everyone's different, everyone's different. Some people be like imposter syndrome. No, and I don't think that's necessarily. That's not a bad thing at all. You just have that much. It's a confidence thing. I'm just going to try and see what happens.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, yeah, sometimes, you just think, oh God, do I know the answer to that? And, yeah, sometimes you just think, oh God, do I know the answer to that and did I give the right answer to that? And that happens now, after many, many years of experience. I remember going to this course, this one-day course in interior design, and I was talking to this woman and I caught up with her a few years later and we were chatting at some event and talking about how our careers had gone, and she said well, when I met you, you were already established, weren't you? You know you, you were doing everything. I was like no, I had just started, I just sounded like I was established. I had no clients at that point. So, uh, yeah, blagging it, I never lied. I never lied, but you can, you can talk as though you know sometimes you have to though there's nothing I'm.
Speaker 2:This is only just you know, recent occurrence for me. You need a certain level of delusion. When you're starting something new, you need, you need to have a certain level of delusion when you're starting something new. You need, you need to have that certain level of delusion and as my first boss always I'll say my first boss, um, as a solicitor always said to me, you know you need to act as if sometimes. So you have to and I say that to the baby lawyers when I'm training them and they're absolutely scared to for that moment when they have to stand in front of a judge for the first time I'm like you have to tell yourself a story in your head. If you have to tell yourself I'm the best being that walked out of the house today, I am the king, I am the queen, whatever, you have to tell yourself a story to get yourself moving. So you have to act as if you have to be in a place of delusion in order for you to make that next step.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, in order for you to make that next step. Absolutely because if, if you're questioning yourself internally, you will give that vibe to other people and you can't expect them to have confidence in you if you're giving off what vibes? That say I'm not sure what I'm doing. So you, you, the appearance is very important yeah, you have to lie to yourself.
Speaker 2:Nothing wrong with lying to yourself within reason, you know or just have confidence in your abilities so then I feel like I'm doing a digital life with you, because then you then you got a commendation from another competition for your book.
Speaker 1:I did I, yeah, I, I entered loads, loads of competitions, um, because I knew you know, if you can say you've been shortlisted for something, then it really helps, you know, to be able to say that. So, um, actually, again, it was my teacher who suggested it and she said have you heard of the comedy women in print prize? And I hadn't, and um, so I had a look at that and thought this sounds perfect. So I entered it for that. And uh, I got an email to say I'd been long listed and I was, wow, this is, this is amazing. I was so happy. And uh, there'd been quite-listed and I was, wow, this is amazing.
Speaker 1:I was so happy and there'd been quite a few others where I didn't get anywhere, a couple of others where I did get to a long list and then no further. And then I got an email to say I'd been shortlisted. And I think I realized how much I wanted that one, because I completely burst into tears when I read the email because it was just such good news. And uh, and yeah, so we all went um to the awards ceremony and uh, because they have they have published authors as well, and because Helen Lederer is runs in who she is. There are loads of celebs there as well. You know you dig. Oh gosh, I'm here, this is, this is brilliant and uh, yeah, I didn't get runner up, but they like my book so much I think they created a prize for me well, you got a commendation.
Speaker 1:I got a commendation award. Yes, yeah and um, and now I can say I'm an award-winning author. Job done.
Speaker 2:Even though you've been shortlisted for things before you know, shortlisted and placed in terms of coming second place. Did that commendation, did that give you validation as a writer?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's just a wonderful feeling, so lovely yeah you do feel validation.
Speaker 1:Um, you know there's so, so much rejection in this industry and so much you know criticism and everything.
Speaker 1:When, when you do get to a point where someone thinks that was good enough to give an award to, absolutely gives you validation and the other really good thing that's come out of it is you know, we set up a whatsapp group of all the people who were shortlisted and we're all still on it and we meet periodically and we help each other and cheer each other on with our next projects.
Speaker 1:And I've met loads of people through the prize. And Helen came to my book launch, which was really lovely and yeah, and we I won't go into the details, but we had a bit of an incident during my speech and we put a damper on things. But then Helen saved the day, you know, as she does, she went on onto the microphone. She says you're coming back to finish your speech and uh called me back on. Somebody wasn't well, basically. So it was like you know, and uh, and I think if I'd gone back up it would have seen a bit mercenary to to to go back and try and make people laugh after that happened, um, but because it was helen yeah, she went up.
Speaker 1:She said, you know the show must go on. And uh, come on, come back up. And I went back up and it was like a big sigh of relief on everybody's part because all my friends and family were there and they were upset for me. But yeah, I did it and I carried on where I'd left off and everybody laughed and it was great.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, you know, when you said it was like it would have been a bit mercenary and in my head I don't know why it popped into my head it'd be like just trampling over someone because you're trying to grab the award. You're like they're on the floor yeah.
Speaker 1:So no, it's really it's yeah, and that's the other thing I really love about having taken on this new career is that I've got so many new friends, yeah, and and a you know support system and some friends who are really close friends now as well as a result. So you know, it's just win-win, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think one of the most important things I will say to anyone, doesn't matter what what you're doing, whether you are being a lawyer, doctor, um electrician, mechanic, anything you need to find. You need to find your tribe, you need to find your supportive group of people. People understand what you're going through. So when you make that phone call, you send that text at city o'clock. They understand why you're sending that text at city o'clock and they can talk you down off the ledge. So it's so important to find your, to find your tribe. So, nilifor, do you want to tell the listeners of the conversation about your book age to to perfection, which was which did win a commendation?
Speaker 1:it did, yes, I would love to tell listeners, yes.
Speaker 1:So it's called age to perfection and it's about a 60 year old woman who's single and successful and she's had her heart broken recently. So she'd run away and traveled for a while to try and get over it. And the book starts when she's just come back from her travels. And it starts on new year's eve when her best friend is trying to set her up with a few of uh, with the single men that she knows basically who, who are all a little bit bit dire, let's say, and, um, her friend, uh, her friend challenges her to, to, to do what she'd heard this other woman do, which was to go on a date every week with someone new, um, until she met someone. And she just says no, no, um, um, sophia, the protagonist in my book, says no, it sounds like too much hard work and I don't need a man, I'm perfectly happy as I am. And then she thinks about it and it's New Year's Day and she says to herself I could do it, but I could try and do it without emotional entanglement, I could just have fun and I could just have sex, and that's what she decides to do. So that's what the book is about it.
Speaker 1:It follows her through her year of attempting to date a new man every week and follows her escapades, which are quite hilarious in parts, and but interwoven between it is her I made her an interior designer, of course, because I know about interior design, so interwoven is some of her experiences an interior designer and she's got a close group of friends and also her family, so there's the dynamics between her and the family.
Speaker 1:She's got an evil sister, so that's quite a good relationship to write, yeah, so hopefully people will enjoy that. It is a rom-com, it has this romantic and comedic size, but it's a richer story, hopefully, yeah. And also I wanted it to be a rebel yell for older women to say that you know, don't write us off. You know we still like sex, we still like to have fun and we don't just want to be in a supporting role, which is what happens a lot in fiction and in films, I think, where you're just a secondary character, um, but you know I wanted an older female protagonist who was at the center of the story all right, so I've got two questions following on from your, from your introduction about your book.
Speaker 2:So did you face any challenges when writing age to perfection?
Speaker 1:yes, the major challenge right at the beginning was that I didn't know how to write. Literally I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, you do these short courses and you think you've learned, but once you start writing you realize that you really don't know much at all. Yeah, so getting started was quite hard, um, but I think someone gave me this advice and now I give it to everyone else which is to just write, but don't worry about it being rubbish. Get the story on the page and once you've done that, you can go back and make it beautiful, make it funny or whatever you want to do with the writing. Don't worry about the quality of the writing so much, and I think that's really good advice and I think that helped me to just get on with it and basically, yeah, I think that's the best.
Speaker 2:Advice like this goes back to sending out that first draft of a manuscript. Don't do it because it's not ready. That first, that first draft, is just you getting your ideas down on a page and getting some kind of a structure of your story down.
Speaker 1:So I know I was being told oh, that that's just your first draft, and I didn't even know what that meant. I mean, what do you mean? It's my first draft. I've been working on it for a year. What does that mean? I didn't even know that. That was a thing you know. You go back and work on it.
Speaker 2:I think that's what make, that's the frustrating thing about it when you are just starting out, you've spent so much time on this piece of work that when you finished it, you're so happy that you finish it. It's an accomplishment in itself to finish something and you spent the time as far as you're so happy that you've finished it. It's an accomplishment in itself to finish something and you spent the time. As far as you're concerned, it's good off. It goes off into the world and your, your um agent will follow and your publishing deal will follow and you'll be a bestseller and then you'll retire. But it doesn't work out that way because that first job needed to stay on your desktop well, it doesn't always work out that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anyway but you know you've got the books behind you.
Speaker 2:And uh, yeah, I'm still on my first one and you'll be on the next one, okay, so if you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters, whom would you choose and why?
Speaker 1:oh, that's a very good question. Who do I want to spend it? I, I think it's got to be the best friend, layla, because she's fun and she she gives good advice and she she loves uh, she loves Sophia.
Speaker 2:So yeah, she's my Iranian character oh, we were talking about this before we started recording. Because you know you, you're from around, you was born in spawning around and then came here, um, when you were young, with your family, and because we were talking about you know you wanted to bring you need, you want to bring some part of your culture and who you are into the book. So I always put a little bit of grenada. Either grenada will get a mention or it will definitely get a mention somewhere. So you felt the need to do that with with Aged Perfection yes, definitely yeah, I noticed you like to get Grenada into your books, which is lovely.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, so I put an Iranian character in as the best friend. Yeah, I feel like it's nice. I think originally, when I started thinking about writing, I was thinking about writing a family saga set in Iran, and I might still do that at some point, but as of now, yeah, I think I will always have at least one one Iranian character in my book did?
Speaker 1:did you say you want your someone wanted you to make her the main character, make the main character Iranian yes, I submitted it to an agent who read it and really, really liked my book, um, but she felt that if she tried to submit it to publishers, they would then say you know the author's Iranian, why hasn't she made the first, you know the main character Iranian? Yeah, and she felt for her that was what would work, and I didn't feel it would work for me. So she didn't take me on, um, but later on, yeah, because well, I think it would have been a very different book if I tried to rewrite it in that way. I couldn't have just called her Iranian and then not referred to it in any way at all, so it would have meant rewriting the book, I think. Yeah, um, so we parted ways.
Speaker 1:But then, as things happen, when I signed with one more chapter, I asked to keep my dramatization rights and um, which I did because I think it would make a good miniseries for TV, yeah, and I then approached her and said would you take me on just for the dramatisation rights? And she did so she's currently hawking it round to try and get me a deal on that. Yeah, that's amazing. I like the way you work I do.
Speaker 2:All right. Okay, the final questions to end our conversation. So are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:I think I'm definitely an extrovert. I have no problem walking into a party of my own and going up to people, but then I do worry that people don't like me.
Speaker 2:So probably a hybrid then no, I think you would still be. I think everyone will probably have, irrespective of being an extrovert or a hybrid, or introvert or hybrid, that feeling of oh my god, do they like me? Was I talking nonsense for half an hour? I don't think that will change, like your personality type, it's just just human nature, isn't it? I?
Speaker 1:think, if you thought you were brilliant and everyone should love you, then that's not well, no, well, that just makes you a narcissist, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:yes, exactly exactly. You are definitely not that okay. So what challenge or experience, good or bad, in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think it is what what I was talking about earlier, to be honest, um about that, the other experience of making a change in my life and going for an option that might not have been the best option at the time, possibly, but it opened up so many doors to me and led me down a completely different path of life, Both in terms of my career and also in terms personally. I think I've grown a lot as a result, so I'm really happy with that.
Speaker 2:OK, even though you did say you don't look back. But if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it?
Speaker 1:be. Yeah, it would definitely be. Don't fret so much. You will be happy. You will have a lovely life, which I think I have had.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you do fret a lot at 25, don't? You're just like, oh my god, you do. Why am I here? What's gonna happen? Why hasn't this happened? What am I gonna do next?
Speaker 1:yes, and letting it get to you. You know, yeah, I'm just being upset about everything and nothing, basically, um, but then you know, things fall into place, they do okay, so you get.
Speaker 2:You get a different question, because normally I ask what is your non-writing tip for writers, but I want to know what is your, what is your dating tip?
Speaker 1:oh, my dating tip. My dating tip is ditch the apps. Ditch the apps definitely. Uh, I think it's horrendous. I I have tried them in the past and my word to describe them is soul-destroying. I just didn't go on with them. I know some people do, but I go for the personal, personal. So go out there and you know I would say look, if you and I know I'm guilty of not always being that way, but if you look open, you know, not stand in a corner twirling your beads, but if you look open and you look like you, you're open to being approached and you're interesting, then you, you will attract people definitely can I tell you a story before we say goodbye?
Speaker 2:that's, that's, oh, dude, yeah, right, so before we go say goodbye, about the apps. And so I was on hinge and this I say person, this person did the like and when I went on it it was just a. His profile picture was a kitchen cabinet because he was a kitchen fitter. Now why on earth, why on earth would you put a kitchen cabinet? It was a very nice kitchen. Because my friend was like was it a nice kitchen? I said, yeah, it was a nice kitchen, but you don't want to go out with a kitchen cabinet.
Speaker 1:I saw one that had. I saw one that had been taken in a disabled loo and I don't know whether it was the size of the image, but what you actually saw in the image was the toilet and that was it. That was his profile.
Speaker 2:Oh God, yeah, Meet people, and that was it, that was his profile oh god, yeah, meet people, meet people. Yes, definitely, definitely so, finally, where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:my website is nilafallamakancom, where you'll find more information about me and you can look at my art on that website.
Speaker 2:Well, that just leaves me to say Nilafalamakan. Thank you so much for being part of the conversation.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me on. It's been really good fun.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon the links are in the show notes. A cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon? The links are in the show notes. And if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadiemathersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
