The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Summer Break with Dorothy Koomson, Amen Alonge and Leye Adenle - Crime Writers Special
While The Conversation takes a short summer break, I’ll be sharing fan-favourite episodes from Season Three, along with brilliant conversations from Page One: The Writer’s Podcast. Season Four returns in September until then, enjoy the rewind!
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Four powerful voices in crime fiction unite in this captivating Black History Month - Crime Writers special that peels back the curtain on writing, representation, and resilience. Dorothy Koomson (celebrating 21 years in publishing with 21 books), Amen Alonge (author of the Pretty Boy series), and Leye Adenle (creator of the Amaka Thrillers) join Nadine Matheson for a conversation that's equal parts hilarious and profound.
This special episode stands as both celebration and call to action, showcasing exceptional talent while highlighting how much more diverse the crime fiction landscape could and should be.
*First Broadcast: 1 November 2024
"A Case Study in Corporate Fear" deconstructs how fear transforms successful...
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Technically FriendsBe a fly on the wall as global tech experts Harrison Wolf and Timothy Reuter catch up...
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Hi everyone, the conversation with Nadine Matheson is currently on a little summer break, but don't worry, I'll be back with brand new episodes in September, but in the meantime, I'll be sharing some fan favourite episodes from season three, along with a few special conversations from page one, the writers podcast that I think you'll really enjoy. Thank you so much for all your support throughout season three. It's been amazing to see the podcast grow and I'm truly grateful to everyone who's listened, shared and supported us, Especially those of you who bought me a cup of coffee on Ko-fi. It really does make a difference. Now, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy this summer break conversation.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to a special bonus episode of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you're enjoying your week. Now you're probably wondering why are we getting an extra episode this week? We had one on Tuesday. Well, that's because last week was Black History Month and to celebrate Black History Month, I decided to have a special live episode of the Conversation featuring three best-selling crime writers Actually, four best-selling crime writers, if you include me. I was in conversation live on YouTube with authors Dorothy Coombson, eamon Olongi and Lea Adenle, and can I say we laughed, we put the world to rights a bit and we answered audience questions. The episode is available to watch on YouTube. I had so much fun recording this episode and maybe I might do something like this again in the future. Now, as always, sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation.
Speaker 1:Hello everyone and welcome to this special live edition of the conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast. And we're doing a crime fiction special for Black History Month and I've got three amazing authors with me today. First up, I've got Dorothy Coombson. And Dorothy I need to get the number right. Is it 20 years or 21 years? It's 21 years this year, and is it 18 books or 19 books? It's actually 21.
Speaker 2:It will be 21 by. February, it will be 21.
Speaker 1:You're always getting it wrong. 21 books by February, so well done to you. And next up we have Eamon Alongay, who is the author of the Pretty Boy series. So thank you, eamon.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:You are welcome. And then, finally, we have Lea Edenly, who is the author of the. Is it a Marquee Thrillers? Did I pronounce it correctly? Thank you so much for joining us. So my first question for you is nice and easy why crime fiction? Anyone can start.
Speaker 3:I can jump in. Okay, I think for me it was, it was and is what I enjoy reading, and so what it's? Just, you know, you go in the world, you read it and you really enjoy it. And then you start to at least for me you sort of create worlds in your own head or correct stories. You read something. I'm like, oh, that could have ended differently, you could have done that differently, you could. And then you start to do that and then from that you sort of create stuff of your own stuff and you think, oh, I can do this. And it's just out of that passion, out of that enjoyment, and when you enjoy something you sort of understand the beats of it, you understand how it works rather easier than other genres. And so that's why I started crime fiction, because I really enjoy it. So that's me.
Speaker 1:What about you, dorothy, because that is not where you started.
Speaker 2:I did not start with crime fiction. I started off with. I had two romantic comedies, the Cupid Effect and Chocolate Run, and then I made people cry for a bit. And then I came to my sixth book, seventh book, sixth book, the Ice Cream Girls, where I wanted to tell a story about two women who had been separated by 20 years and then brought back together. But it wasn't like a happy reunion.
Speaker 2:And then I thought, oh, what if they'd both been accused of a crime the same crime and one of them went to prison and one of them got away with it? And so I started telling this story and I got to the end. It was like a proper whodunit, because when I started writing I didn't actually realise who did it, who was going to be the killer. So I got to sort of like two thirds of the way through of it, oh yeah, that's who killed him. So after that I thought you know what I really enjoyed, that I might do it again. So I started writing sort of emotional thrillers, as I called them, sort of like crime books that have a real crime element, but they aren't just focused on crime, they are about the emotions of people involved.
Speaker 1:What about you Lane? Why crime? What drew you to it? Crime you know, yes, crime.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's what drew me to it, you know.
Speaker 1:Just crime in general, you know what they say.
Speaker 4:If you cannot do it, you teach it.
Speaker 1:So you didn't fancy being inside prison for a while, you just thought I'll just write about it instead yeah, because you know, contrary to what crime pays.
Speaker 4:You know, yeah, I mean, look around the world. The billionaires of this world are amazing criminals. They don't pay taxes, they destroy the environment. Who gave billionaires permission to mess up you know space, to fill space with their junk and all of that to ruin the environment? Nobody did so. Crime really pays. And then, being Nigerian, you know, people look at me and they think criminal. I thought, man, let me own it.
Speaker 1:So you're taking control of the narrative. Is that what you're doing?
Speaker 4:Dude, if they believe it's in my blood, I might as well make some money from it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're living vicariously through your characters.
Speaker 4:I'm living intentionally through them. If you read my book, you would have the blueprint for my future crying. I just haven't perfected it. But seriously, on a more serious note, dorothy says something which is so important in writing. I think when you don't know who's done it, the writing is beautiful. Do you agree? Like if you don't know the end, done it, the writing is beautiful. Do you agree? Like if you don't know the end of the story? If you have a, you just I mean, it's wonderful. And that's why I love crying, because I'm writing with a total plan and I'm just enjoying what my characters are doing. I'm screaming at my characters. It's like reading a book for the. You're the first person reading this book, you know, I think it's beautiful.
Speaker 1:We're very lucky to be able to work in this genre. I think. Do all of you plan your novels or do you just take? You know, just see where it goes when you sit down in front of the screen.
Speaker 3:I plan.
Speaker 2:How how far, how much? You know that amen?
Speaker 3:you look like a planner I'm gonna take that as a compliment I'm gonna own it I plan quite you know this is sort of like, you know, like the pretty boy series. You know this is sort of like, you know, like the pretty boy series. I, you know, I plan it to be a three book thing and I planned so I know every sort of beat that happens in it from the beginning, but, a bit like layer, things change while you're writing it. So you know, plans are subject to change. But I do have a structure. So the way I sort of write is a lot of the writing is done on my notes while I'm walking around, when I actually sit down to do the typing, it's all, it's all, it's all done, you know, and I just, so, I just, you know, go through it. So that way I've, you know I'm an extreme planner, I would say, but the plan is, you know, it's constantly, constantly, constantly evolving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you like do you allow yourself to be surprised, even though you, you have a plan in place?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, you know, because even like a good day today. One of the characters that people love. I killed them off in the first 10 pages. Initially in my head I just like, do you know? I mean because I thought I liked the shock of it, of them. Just you know, that just happened. And then I just thought, no, I think she'll be good here and she'll be good there, and she'll be good there and I think she'll be good. So I just I kept her on and I kept her on and I kept her on. And now it's like you know, I love the character so much, so you know it does, and even like her characters has sort of changed through all the first three books, all the three books, because she was only supposed to be in one for 10 pages, but that sort of thing, you know, sort of evolved. So yeah, I'm a planner.
Speaker 1:What about you, Dorothy?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm not a planner, I'm just the person who kind of sits down and writes. And do you know what? I have an idea. It scares me. No, I can see the fear. I can see you going. Oh, I'm scared. I actually have an idea for a book.
Speaker 2:And then I'll have a what if? Scenario, what if this happened? For, like with every smiley fake, it was like what if I left the book event, went to my car and there was a baby on the back seat. What would I, um, what would I do, um, where would this baby come from? And so I kind of have this idea and then I will have ideas about what happens, what scenes happen, but often I won't know what happens in the end. Sometimes I will, and sometimes I'll write that if I, if it comes into my head, I'll write it down. So I'll write the end. And then the end very rarely kind of turns out how I originally wrote it. You know, as I get to know the people and the characters and as the story evolves, um, one of my books, um, it's called now called that day you left.
Speaker 2:I had this whole ending all written and I was like I thought I was well ahead of the game and I'd written it and then I wrote the rest of it and then I got to the end and it was just like yeah, that doesn't work. So, like, I rang up my agent. I said so, if this was a scenario, would this happen? Yeah, so I rang my editor and I was like so if this was a scenario, would that? They were like no, oh jeez. So I had to unpick everything I'd put in to get to the story, to this, to make it. So I learned a lesson, and that lesson was that I'm going to do it over and over again because that's what I'm like, that's who I am.
Speaker 2:So, no, I don't plan, but it's part of the getting to know people. You know, like, like, we get to know people in real life and you, um, you find out different things about them. You learn different things about them. That's what it's like with writing a book for me. As I get to know the characters and the things happen and scenarios happen. I mean there's certain things that I kind of need to happen. Um, I kind of get to know how they respond to those situations. But I learn about them as I go along.
Speaker 1:What about you, lo? Because I was thinking what Aimee was saying about writing characters and having a plan for them in the beginning, and I had that with the last book I just wrote. I had a whole plan for this one character that was going to kill them off. Like I knew I was going to kill them off from day one. Like you're going to die. I'm looking forward to the point when you die. And then I got to about three points in and I just thought I don't think I'm gonna kill you, I think I'm gonna keep you. I don't know what I'm gonna do with you in the next book, but I feel like I'm gonna keep you. So how do you feel when you get to those moments?
Speaker 4:Good question. I was lucky to be in the audience at Harrogate when Grisham and Lee Child were on the stage, just the two of them having a chat. And then somebody in the audience asked a question right, do you plan your stories or do you just wing them? And Grisham lawyer talked about the very meticulous way in which he plans it. You know which? I won't be surprised if that's what you do, nadine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know man.
Speaker 4:True lawyers.
Speaker 2:Me and you lay against the world yeah, we're winning.
Speaker 4:Come on, gpt is going to take over their jobs very soon, don't worry. Let's hope not, no, anyway. So so they ask him this, right, they ask, they ask both of them, and Grisham is first to answer. And Grisham illustrates. He talks about how he does his entire character Bible, how he has color-coded plans and everything is like a proper project plan. He has everything planned before he puts pen to paper. I thought, damn, that's what I'm doing wrong. Could spend to paper. I thought, damn, that's what I'm doing wrong. But then I thought I'm happy he does that because you know, I hope that's what lawyers do. I hope, if I ever.
Speaker 1:And then he came to reach out and Lee said I don't plan.
Speaker 4:He came to reach out and Lee said I don't plan. He said I end the chapter on, um, uh, what's his name? Jack Reacher jumping off a cliff and I don't know how he's going to survive. But I'll come back to it tomorrow and I'm not going to be bothered about it. Why? Because how he survives is not my problem, that's Jack Reacher's problem.
Speaker 4:I was like hallelujah, that's how I write. I look forward to how Bobby Fatokun, my new character, is going to save the day. I look out to how Amaka is going to get some thieving politicians and, you know, make them face justice. I look forward to finding out how my characters get out of sticky situations. You know, and if I've planned it ahead, I feel like I feel your brain is in a different configuration when you're planning than when you're in flow and it's just coming out.
Speaker 4:That's when some writers, especially the literary writers they talk about it landed in my head in whole. It was inspired. It's bullshit, you're just writing. It was inspired, it's bullshit, you're just writing. It's not inspired. No, no, no, I don't know.
Speaker 4:You didn't tap into some unique wavelength that the likes of us cannot connect with. You're just in that state called flow. You can see musicians, jazz musicians, you know. You can see when a quartet is playing. You can tell when they're in flow because it's just walking, you know, and as writers, or we get into flow, you know, you get into that space where you're just writing. You know, when you have time, blindness, when you're writing, yeah, yeah, yeah, beautiful, that's when you're in flow. And when you're in that situation, when you're in that state of mind, your brain just does amazing things. It just does what the human brain is capable of. You know, so long as you're enjoying what you're doing, it's slightly difficult but you're enjoying it and there's instant reward from you know. You know, oh, look at the beautiful lines I wrote. I cannot wait until my edit talk just deletes all of them, you know so what do you do in those moments?
Speaker 1:because you know, those moments when it's flowing, those are good moments, when you lose track of time and you look, you know, you look at your word count. You're like I don't know how the hell I did 3,000 words today, but somehow I managed it. But then you have the other days when I say it's like pulling teeth, and if you manage to get 350 words down, you're like, well, it's something. So what do you do when it's not flowing as you'd like it to?
Speaker 4:You know it's interesting. You should say pulling teeth. You know, think about it. Right, you turn up at a dentist's clinic, right, they put into that torture chair. Um, you know, they put the apron on you, they put the glasses on you, you open up your mouth, they pour this kind of stuff into your mouth and then the dentist goes that's a bad hole. That was really hard, isn't, isn't it? Yeah, but I'm sorry, I've got them tight block. I can't walk on you today. It is a job, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, that's what.
Speaker 2:I always say as well, it's a job you do, you have to take it seriously and it's the best job in the world. You know, I love my job, but it's still a job and this is what I was talking to. Kit the wall about it. Um, a couple of weeks ago we did an event together. We were both talking about this.
Speaker 2:How you know, people say, oh, I can't write today, I've got, I've got writer's block. You know, if you work in a supermarket, you exactly like a dentist, you wouldn't be going. Oh, I can't scan today, I've got scanners block. No, you have to do it, you have to, you have to push through it, and you know so. If it isn't coming, if it isn't flowing a bit isn't working, I will write something else. I'll write another part, I'll go to another part.
Speaker 2:Or you know Kit was saying that, you know, she just writes a different thing altogether, gets herself out of that. You know being in her head. But for me it's just, I'll just go because I don't have to stick to writing. First, chapter one to chapter 50. I will just start writing chapter 27. I'll put a big capital letters, I put write more and then I'll go and write something else and then I'll come back to write more and I go oh God, what was this meant to be?
Speaker 2:Again, because I have no clue, but I will. You've just got to. You've got to take yourself seriously. You've got to take this seriously as a job, because if you don't, readers don't take you seriously and people feel like they shouldn't have to pay a proper amount for your work because they think you're just having the time of your life and you're floating around and it's for other people. I know I'm kind of sounding mean because I'm saying you have to get on with it, but if you want to do this as a job and it's a serious job for you then you really do need to find a way to push through the push through the pain, as it were yeah.
Speaker 1:So I was gonna ask gaming, what is he for? Because we're both lawyers and you know you're right. I couldn't turn up to court and say you know what I'm not feeling. Feeling it today, I'm not doing it. I'll do your closing speech tomorrow, like I couldn't do that. So I understand, but on the other hand, I'm like it's mean just like push through. What about you? Avan?
Speaker 3:unfortunately I'm with Leigh and Dorothy. I pushed through. Yeah, I just pushed through, and I think that the issue for for me with the push through is so I think for the second book I I took up the first book. I took, I think, two weeks off and I know I had to finish it in two weeks. Obviously I know everything that's happening.
Speaker 3:So there's no you know, there's no faffing about you know, I'm there and I do it and I treat it like a job, like I treat everything else. You wake up, you do it, you have a break, you do it and you keep going and if you have rights as a block, I guess, then you go off and play with your kids, you go just watch television for a bit, but you know at the back of your head, it's working, it's working, it's working, it's working. And then you have a time limit and then when that's done, you come back and sit down and you look at it and you know like, especially, I know I'm on the clock, I know I have to to get it, and for me because I'm sort of like an extreme planner that doesn't really happen that much. It usually happens with dialogue, which is the only thing I free flow. You know dialogue, I love dialogue.
Speaker 3:So I just go and I like it to be in a rhythm and whatnot, and if so, I sort of go and and when I'm sitting down and watching whatever you know could be love is blind or whatever you know could be lovers blind or whatever you know I am having that dialogue with in my head and my wife is like, can you see that? I'm like yeah, sure, sure, sure, but I'm just going back and forth. So is this? You have to treat it like a job. You enjoy the job, the job. Hopefully, otherwise you shouldn't be doing it, but you just have to treat it like a job yeah, I think that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Even when you stop, whether it's because of writer's block or whether it's because you've just you've naturally just come to a place where you need to stop, your brain is still going, you're still working through scenarios and conversations and plots, you just it doesn't stop. I don't think, as a writer, even when you do have those moments when I don't know what's going on, it's only when you go off for a walk or do something completely different that the solution comes to you yeah, and that's that's part of the thing.
Speaker 2:I know it sounds, it does sound mean, but it is. It isn't, if you think about it, because other people do do their job. But also you're kind of indulging yourself a bit and you need to be serious about what you're doing. You know, like I say, it's the best job in the world, but you have to be serious about it, you have to take it seriously. And readers are brutal because you know, I mean, I'm a brutal reader.
Speaker 2:I read something and I'm like are you kidding me? Are you joking? This is what you're putting at the end of this. I gone for this journey, 350 pages, and you're doing this to me. No, and I think that I remind myself of that when I'm writing and that's why I'm quite hard on myself when I do the editing and stuff of my books, because I remember that there's a reader sat there going are you joking? And also it's. You know you can write a load of nonsense, but you come back and you rewrite it, you edit it. That's the best thing about our jobs. You can well that and you can get revenge on people, but you can go back and do it better the second time. Just that I mean yeah.
Speaker 1:Have you ever had anyone come to you and say is that me in the book? Did you base that person on me because I feel like you did I, I, you know what I can't.
Speaker 2:I can't tell you this story, but there was one person and I was. I was so outraged. I'm gonna have to tell you off camera because I'm not internet, so I will tell you off camera. But yeah, there's one person who, yeah, yes, I'm still really mad. What about?
Speaker 1:you. What about you? Le Anybody, Anyone in your books?
Speaker 4:Nah, I will get into trouble. That said, there might be someone out there who really suffers a so-called writer's block, and thanks amen for giving you know, um, a way to get out of it. There's two ways. Uh, a friend gifted me one, which is if you feel like you can't write, just start writing. And if it's too painful to work on what you're supposed to be working on, then start with a sentence I'm paraphrasing I cannot write because and then just get yourself writing that way. Another method that works for me is I look for someone and I say to them hey, like I workshop what I'm trying to do with them, you know. And then I start telling them about it, and then it works. And the third way is the most effective way, you know. I get someone that you know leaves close by, and then I call them and say hey, listen, it's happened again. I'm coming over. I turn up at their door, press the bell. They open the door. They smack me in the face.
Speaker 1:Is this what you tell people? To get someone to slap you in the face, knock the words back into your head and then I can write after that. You know well you'll be doing something after that, after someone slaps you. The only thing that scares me what Dorothy was saying earlier about the way she writes. Also, I have a very linear brain so I have to go one, two, three right to the end. I couldn't if I was stuck. I couldn't like jump ahead to chapter 25 and start writing. If I was stuck on chapter four, I couldn't do that well, one of the um, you know one of the writers.
Speaker 2:I know she was saying how she was really stuck with what she was writing. And she was near the end of the book and she just couldn't. And I said to her you're not going to like this, but write the final chapter. And she was like, oh no, I can't do that. So I said to her write the final chapter. I promised you write the final chapter.
Speaker 2:And she argued back and forth with me and I don't know why people argue with me, because you know I'm always right, but she, she, she did it. She eventually ran out of other things to do. So she went and she wrote the final chapter and she said, while she was writing it she absolutely worked out where she needed to go and where the story needs to go from there to get to there. So if you're a planner, like you say, then you've got an idea of the ending. So if you're stuck, write the final chapter. You don't have to keep it, no one's going to see it, no one's going to force you to keep it. But just write the final chapter and then you'll see what is necessary, what's missing from what you're doing, what you're stuck with.
Speaker 2:I'll keep it in mind. I'll keep it in mind. I was.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask with your, with your books, because I'm always interested in what comes first, whether it's your plot, whether it's your character, or is it just a scene. So, eamon, with Pretty Boy, was it the story first or did Pretty Boy come to you in your head first?
Speaker 3:I think Pretty Boy came first quite closely with the plot, but Pretty Boy come to you in your head first. I think Pretty Boy came first quite closely with the plot, but Pretty Boy came first. I always say this I was on a bus, so it was the character came first, not Pretty Boy. I was on a bus on the way and there was a little kid, probably like 13, I would say, on the back of the bus and he was on the phone and he was screaming about coming to end somebody. I'm going to end him. And he was so loud and initially I was thinking, okay, I'm not going to turn around because this is not my business, I am not getting involved. And eventually I just turned around and I'm like, wow, he's a kid. And I thought I almost laughed. And I thought I almost laughed but I just thought I just could go very badly.
Speaker 3:And then I just thought I wonder what happens to that guy his entire day, like what is his day? You know, because he's not in school, unfortunately, and this is his life. And what has led to this point? Who is he? What is he doing? Where is he going? Where is he going from there? Where is he coming from and I just sort of fleshed out that particular person's life who is in the book.
Speaker 3:He's in the book but he's just in the book in two pages, but that's just the world. So from that world it sort of opened up. So from that character it opened up to the world. And then I've always liked the idea of like a sort of like a modern day samurai type person who has morals but is in a world filled with evil and you know all this. So then I created pretty boy and pretty boy was my navigation through that world. But the world is the favorite part of the book for me, that you know that inner city london world. And then pretty boy comes and he just comes through it. So yeah, it was, it was that kid first and I always wonder what happened to him and you know, but yeah, it was, it was that kid first and I always wonder what happened to him and you know, but yeah, it was that kid, that just that. That that was the trigger for me.
Speaker 4:So and then, man, one day you're gonna be talking about this in front of a huge audience and that guy is just gonna stand up I'll absolutely deny it.
Speaker 3:It was me, you and he was so loud and so aggressive and I just thought you know this is not right.
Speaker 3:But you know so initially you think it's a joke because he's so loud and he's spelling out what he's going to do to this other kid. But the more it goes into, oh, this is being serious. And then I thought maybe he's just one of those dudes who just has a really high voice for an old person, because and then I turn I'm like, wow, you know what I mean, what are you going to do, yeah. But then I think, yeah, you know, this is.
Speaker 3:It sort of happens in the book where the protagonist looks at a little bit like what are you going to do, do? And then you sort of realize at some point that he has a weapon and that instinct of just that sort of levels. Everybody just think, oh, you know, what are you going to do, what can you do? You know? I mean, I can take you, but it's like, you know, nobody's really taking anybody with hands nowadays. There are other things involved and that that thing that triggers, oh okay, it could get really serious. No matter how much, how humorous he looks to you, he could really hurt. And I think that is what I picked on automatically.
Speaker 1:I'm just thinking of, like what would happen afterwards was that I would end up in the youth court with them, and I'm always thinking yeah, because I'm always thinking how did you get here like 14, 15 year olds? You said they're not using their hands, they're using weapons, they're getting involved in things they got no business getting involved in, and I'm wondering how would they get to that point? Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. What about you, though? Where did what came to you first with your marker thrillers? Is it the characters, a scene?
Speaker 4:It was a conversation I had with my brothers and my mom. We talk about everything in the world, so we were talking about you keep finding mutilated naked young women, finding mutilated naked young women. And my mom dedicated. You know she was and my guy is based on her. You know someone who's dedicated to women. She was. She was time secretary, women's affairs and all of that. But she really took it very seriously and even late into her retirement she used to write papers for government and you know saying, hey, listen, this might be a good thing to do and she'll just hand it and just forget about it. So we we have such deep interest and we talk about everything, not just important stuff. Actually, everything we talk about is important.
Speaker 4:But this particular day we were talking about these people, these bodies that end up on this road mutilated, and for some reason we did the same thing everybody does. We assumed they were sex workers, almost as if your job is an excuse or it's the reason you've been murdered. But because there's sex workers in Nigeria where sex work is illegal, when they do die, it hardly gets investigated. If you're going to be a sex worker in Nigeria, I kind of found out. I don't know if it's with everybody else. You're going to school or something. You're going to be a sex worker in Nigeria. I kind of found out I don't know if it's with everybody else. You're going to school or something. You're trying to. You know, pay your way through, you go and do it in a different place so you don't do it in the bad way you grew up. You go to some other states where nobody knows you right. So everybody thought it was sex workers. So us four, we were talking about how to protect people from getting killed in this way. We talked about everything from legalization to decriminalization, to. We talked about everything.
Speaker 4:But just talking, it just occurred to me what if there's another angle to this? You know, people always assume, because the bodies were mutilated, that, oh, they used them for some black magic ritual, which is so bs. You know, with anybody that tells you I'm a witch doctor, I'm gonna do something for you, it's, it's just bullshitting you, you know. Uh, he doesn't believe it. He knows it's impossible to do that. It's like it's the equivalent of a Pentecostal pastor. It just doesn't have a big choir behind him. You know, no, train lots and all of that, but it's essentially the same thing you know Send miracles to the gullible, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm scared. Now I'm sitting here. You're bold, mate.
Speaker 4:What are they going to do to me? Curse me, I don't know, Actually I do.
Speaker 1:I'm going to church tonight.
Speaker 4:That organized religion is like organized crime and the evidence is in front of us so blatantly we ignore it. Do you remember how many bodies they found right In you know? Is anybody a Catholic?
Speaker 1:I'm putting up my hand.
Speaker 4:We're not talking about that, then, but you know, is anybody a catholic? I'm putting up my hand.
Speaker 1:We're not talking about that, then, but you know crime has been committed in the name of god man, and it's yes, no, but I'm not gonna disagree with you at all, because that was like my second book in the binding room. It's all about what people do in the name of god, and I suppose it just goes on to where you find your inspiration from when you are writing, you know, but you find it in so many different ways, literally in your own backyard sometimes yeah, yeah, yeah, it's uh, the femi coyote, an amazing crime.
Speaker 4:Writer from.
Speaker 1:Nigeria. He is.
Speaker 4:So he wrote this book Lightseekers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that. Oh, brilliant. That was brilliant. Both are religion, aren't they? Sorry? Yeah, both of his books are religion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Lightseekers and Gaslight more so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, both got religion yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, actually yeah, Because the dude in Gaslight, without giving it away, was Catholic, wasn't he?
Speaker 2:Yes, he was. He was a super church, wasn't he? Yeah?
Speaker 4:Yeah, but I have nothing against religion. I'm a very religious person myself. You know why are you laughing, For real.
Speaker 2:I am, because the way you just, you just brushes it down and now you're going yeah, yeah, no.
Speaker 1:I'm not seeking redemption no, no, no.
Speaker 4:I have nothing against any religion. I believe in the truthfulness of every religion. I recently, as my latest act of self decolonization, I became a Babalao. I don't know if you have to explain that.
Speaker 3:I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2:I'm Grenadian, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1:You have to explain it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'll tell you. The priesthood of the Yoruba people's indigenous belief system, indigenous religion, that has a book, our oral, our book, our holy book. The oral corpus that is called the Odwifa is, with 256 books and thousands of verses, is many times larger than the bible, and this book contains the medicine of the Yoruba. In fact, if I were to become a practicing Baba Lau, my first five years of my 18 years you know, training uh would be learning medicine. You know learning leaves and roots and how to prepare them and what they're used for. You know learning leaves and roots and how to prepare them and what they're used for.
Speaker 4:And so this 256 books contains the history of the Yoruba, contains our worldview, it contains our cosmology, our creation myths, our dances, our music, our great poems, the great poems of the Yoruba people are in there. It contains everything about us, really, and what I love about it is that it's for want of a better word it's God speaking to me in my language. Better still, it's peopled by people that look like me. You know these gods and all of them, the angels don't. We don't even have angels, but what you might call an equivalent, not really. They don't have names like michael, like gabriel, you know, like the hell.
Speaker 2:Gabriel or michael that's really those names but they have afric names, you know.
Speaker 4:So yeah, it's religious.
Speaker 1:I'm going to put a question up because you know Leia brought up people looking like us. So for Maurice Francis he said Good evening guys. What are your thoughts on the upcoming black female-led detective show Ellis? I don't know if you've seen the trailers for it DCI Ellis on Channel 5.
Speaker 2:Is it Channel 5? Okay, I saw the trailers for it, dci ellis on channel five. Is it channel five? Okay, I saw that alibi. I think I saw the adverts for an alibi. It's got that um actor actress sharon. Is that a sharon I really like? So I I'm interested to see what it's like. I don't know, I don't know who wrote it, so and that will kind of influence it, and also who made it, uh.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to give it a chance uh yeah, there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes before something arrives on your screens, and you've got to be aware of that, I think how important because there are four of us on here, four black crime writers on the screen, and it's.
Speaker 1:I have my. I have my own thoughts about black history month. I always say, you know, we're not just here for 31 days in October, we're here every day of the year. But how is it for you seeing more I say more black crime writers coming out being published? Even though in the beginning, I'll say this, when I was putting this panel together, I emailed Dorothy because I put together a list of black crime writers. I think I came up with 15 and I was like there can't be just 15, it needs to be more than it has to be, more than 15 like being published in the UK. And I emailed Dorothy and I think Dorothy gave me like another four and I was was still that can't be it, there needs to be more. So how does it feel to see us on screen and see more Black crime writers being published?
Speaker 4:It's beautiful, it's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 4:I grew up Sorry, yeah. So I was going to say I grew up reading crime stories in Nigeria by black people. I love the stories in the Paysetter series Amen, you remember those. All of them were crime and they were written by Africans. And also some Yoruba crime stories, which are just amazing. If I start talking about that, we're not going to end the show today, yeah, but to yeah, it's brilliant, it's beautiful. I love it. We need more and there are more.
Speaker 4:Do you know how many crime writers are published in Nigeria? See, the thing about Nigeria is Nigeria doesn't care about the rest of the world. It's like, look, nigeria is enough for us. So you might not know about these people, but they're amazing crime writers in nigeria and I've been reading some new scripts that are coming out and I'm like dude, where have you been all my life? You know. So, yeah, it's a beautiful feeling. I hope we have more. I'm working with some people to try and do an africa, a black crime writers, crime writing festival on the continent, in Africa. I think that would be something. If we have a crime writing festival in Africa, you know, I think you can see just how many people are actually doing this. You know, fingers crossed, that will work out, you know fingers crossed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what about you, dorothy?
Speaker 2:he's going to say something I was going to say, you know, we've got to be careful, though, of this representation stuff, because just because they look like us doesn't mean that they are written by people who have experience of those, of that life and those issues. And a lot of the time, you know, they have to go, they have to work for the, for the white gaze, otherwise they're not. Um, and for women, they have to work for the male gaze, so the white male gaze has to accept them. So a lot of the time you won't see representation, you won't see a thing that you won't see a story that is full, if you understand what I mean. Yeah, I mean I got told when I was trying to get published and I was rejected by everybody in the writers and artists yearbook twice. You know, the thing I kept hearing was it's about a black woman, but it's not about the black experience. And for them, there's a black woman but it's not about the black experience. And for them there's a very specific type of thing that is the black experience they want to read about. You know, people getting called the n-word and being beaten up by your black boyfriend and stuff. They don't actually think that you could have a normal, a normal life and life, and sometimes, with the Ice Cream Girls being on TV, it was absolutely great to see on TV, to have it on TV, but at the same time there were so many issues with it and one of the issues was that they made my character, who I made, sort of like the girl next door, the everyday girl it was. She became this shouty, aggressive, typical black girl. You know, rather than the character I wrote, as in typical, as in stereotypical, the idea people have of a black girl, particularly a dark-skinned Black girl. That is what they had, the whole. They rewrote my story to fit the narrative that they had and that is what the so that's why I think it's nice, it's great.
Speaker 2:One of the best things I think is to see, to walk into a bookshop and to see um black writers all on the shelves. I never want. You know, all those years ago, when I was top of the top of the charts and all that business, I never wanted to be on my own. I always wanted to have other people writing different types of books because, again, a lot of the time I spent a lot of time being told I couldn't write romantic comedies, I couldn't write emotional books.
Speaker 2:I couldn't write commercial books because you know black people are meant to write literary books. You're meant to tell the people about the continent of Africa or these. You know you're supposed to teach them something rather than entertaining them, and I had to keep fighting that and it's like you know, you're supposed to teach them something rather than entertaining them and I had to keep fighting that. And it's like you know, and sometimes it feels like that fight hasn't ended that you know, on the other side, you know we've got all of us here and there's lots of other people writing crime books, writing romantic comedies, writing emotional books, and that is just wonderful as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 1:What about you, Eamon? Does it surprise you that the number's so small? Because I think you and I were published around the same time, I think if you see, yeah, and if you've got two or three black crime writers coming out at the same time, it can create this false illusion that you know everything's fine, but we're out there yeah, I, but I do.
Speaker 3:I do absolutely agree in that it needs to get better. And I understand the other end of it, that you just you don't want representation, representation, stake, stake. But there is no way you are saying that they're only 15 talented crime authors. It's impossible, it is absolutely impossible. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done with bringing them in the fold, or just. You know, I think the issue with this is because it's art and it's very subjective, so people will refuse you for the most inane of reasons and it can get frustrating.
Speaker 3:And then there's the other aspect of when you send your work out and you get a no. You know, I, I I say this to other people trying to become lawyers as well it's like when you get a no, and if you're a white person you just think, ok, they don't like me. But if you get a no as a black person, you almost have to think first did they say no because I'm black? And you just have to when there are more people like us in it successful, successful middle class writers, really successful writers, struggling writers, just equality, and I think it's important. And just different stories as well, because I did have a problem because when we were coming out, that was, you know, that was george floyd, and, and so everybody expected your book to be. You know, this is how you, you know like no, no, this is just an enjoyable, but enjoyable.
Speaker 3:Characters that are black, you know, interacting in London, you know, because those people exist as well, and that's not the only thing. But at the same time, those books are important too. Other people can do it. I just think there's enough room for all sorts of genres, all sorts of things that we can write. And again, I'm not saying we're smarter, but we're definitely not less smarter. So it should be. There are people out there I can do it, you just, they just don't believe the system is geared for them, so they're just trying. Yeah, it's a bit sad, but know, I think it's important.
Speaker 2:But they're also being told, you know, there is the Highlander mentality, which is really awful and punishing and it is demoralising for people. That's all, there can be only one. So you know, I know people have been told oh yeah, we don't need you, we've got Dorothy Coombson, we've got Mallory Blackman.
Speaker 3:Just, I mean, there is that whole thing of there is like there can be. I need to say this story, you know. So, you know, a good day to die comes out when we're going for meetings with you know production houses about you know adapting it, and we're in this meeting and this guy just very comfortably says oh, you know, tough boys around now, so we sort of have to wait for that to be over before we make your show. And everybody in the room is like what are you saying? Don't say that in front of him, because essentially he's saying that it can only be one of those. And you know, there's a stark difference between mine and, and I was like, oh, my god, this is this, is it like? This is how he's thinking, like you know, like the audience or people's brains, and they're big enough to have those. You know what we're doing to. You know London set, you know crime. And I'm like, oh, wow, that is, that is something.
Speaker 1:But it's there, but we just have to push through it and force our way through, however we can it's so crazy because you wouldn't, if I look at myself in my series that I write which is, you know, a female detective. No one, I mean you can count on one, count on more than one hand the number of female. I say white female led police detective series.
Speaker 2:But we, but then you know when, don't forget some of them written by men as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some of them written by men. But the equivalent would be someone then saying, well, we don't need another. You know, we're not going to make Henley into a series, because we've already got DCI Ellis on Channel 5, one series led by a black female and that's enough. Like the world can't cope with any more, that's just ridiculous.
Speaker 3:And it's on Netflix, so everybody's you know everybody's watching that. So there's no, you know we can't compete, nobody's going to watch your stuff and it's like okay, you know, fair enough.
Speaker 4:It's just why you've got to do things yourself If you can find a way, you've got to do it yourself. You know I view it this way. It's as a business they want. If they believe that what I've written is going to make them money, they will publish it. But when they say to us or when they say to anybody for these reasons, we can't do this book now, it's not about I don't think it's yes, it's because you're an African writer writing this, but it's not because of that. It's because we know the market. You know they've been in the industry for so long. They've been doing this business for so long. They're in the business of selling books, right?
Speaker 1:I could accept that to a point, but not when you're looking, when I'm coming with you with there's only 18 of us and you're looking at crime. I'm using crime fiction as an example. It's the biggest selling genre out of all the books that are read by people. Crime fiction is an example. It's the biggest selling genre out of all the books that are that are read by people. Crime fiction is number one. So I'm not going.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, it's both of them it's crime fiction and romance, and both of them are really underrepresented. But I absolutely agree. I all say this to new writers all the time. You know it's a business, publishing is a business. But from my days when I used to work in magazines women's magazines we would have, you know, 11 months out of the year we'd have white women, white celebs, white models on the front. The one time we put a black person on the front, our sales went through the roof because people would see themselves, they would buy it, because there was, there, was, there, was there. There is a market there. You know, there is a market there for it.
Speaker 2:But you have to get through all these gates, all these people gatekeeping and sort of saying it, and part of the problem is this whole mentality of there's people who will get a book and they'll say to you we just didn't time with it, we just didn't understand it, and a lot of times because they don't understand the language or they don't. They have in their minds this is how a black person's life is, and so therefore, if it doesn't chime with that, it doesn't work. It's like, you know, it's not realistic, I don't get on with the voice and so therefore, that business is being stopped. They're stopping people from getting access to it Because, let's be honest, a lot of the books, a lot of the top of the charts, it's manufactured. They tell you what to read and they they make it easier for you to find certain types of books and to fall in love with certain types of books, because they're always there, they're everywhere. You know there's, there's posters, there's this, there's that, whereas you know there's other books. They'll go.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we're giving you a really good campaign and, and that campaign is adverts of facebook. There's no chance of you getting to the top of the charts if you're. If you're not, you know they've fulfilled their contracts. But you know facebook ads, much as much as I love them, they're not going to get you to number one on the charts. So it is a business. It absolutely is. But to get into the world of that business, you've got to jump through so many more hoops than other writers and you've also your story's got to be absolutely perfect when you send it in, rather than somebody who's like oh, do you know what? I quite fancy writing this and I'll send it in. Some of the things I see and I'm like, really you thought crying and my eyes out going this doesn't work. There's a plot hole here, and then this person's written something and it's like a million plot holes. That's like oh so, yeah, that's, that's been published.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, I'm gonna. There's some questions in the chat, so I'm gonna put one to you. How are you supporting young black authors to use their voices in the writing space? Anyone?
Speaker 2:well, I I spend a lot of time talking to young writers. I I have mentored a couple of people. Um, I started my podcast to give people, um, the happy author, to give people an idea of what, um, the publishing industry is really like, to give them a. You know, when I started out, there was nothing there. And if you don't know anybody because everyone else, everyone knows everyone in publishing If you don't know anybody it's really hard. So I started my podcast to give people insight into the behind the scenes stuff. And you know, I try and promote people's books as much as I can. I do my best. I know I can't do everything, I can't read everyone's books, but I do my best.
Speaker 1:What about you, Lai or Naaman?
Speaker 4:Well, what I'm doing right now is trying to get this crime writing festival up. I've been putting it out there, I've been telling people about it, because it doesn't need to be me who does it.
Speaker 1:Uh-oh, sorry, I thought that was me. You should know better. Like, come on, it's so silent, it's only because of?
Speaker 4:No, it is, but because it's on the phone. I know why it is Because I've got the app on the laptop as well.
Speaker 1:Excuses, excuses.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that was Kamala talking about getting the Nigerian vote, but I'll call her back later. So what I'm doing is I'm trying to. So I've never said no to any publisher that says to me hey, can you read this manuscript? So long as it's rhyme, I'm reading it. I drop whatever I'm doing, I'm reading it. I've never given a bad blob. If there's something that needs to be worked on, we'll talk about it and we'll get to the stage where, yeah, this is amazing. Walked on, we'll talk about it and we'll get to the stage where, yeah, this is amazing. Um, and also, I'm hoping that, as a genre, we can make it huge in africa well, not just africa, but wherever we are, you know well, in fact, the global south, right. And one of the ways to do it is to, I believe, have this crime writing festivals. No one, no two. Do you know how many crime writing festivals they have in France? It's almost like dude.
Speaker 4:It's like every little village has its own crime writing festival, you know. So I'm thinking if we can have, you know, lagos crime writing festival, a crack crime writing festival um joe bog crime. You know, um kingston crime? Come on, it'll be great because we'll be creating a market for this. We'll be showing people yeah, forget all those things where you have to see through 40 pages to understand that this guy was talking about his dog all along, like, come on.
Speaker 1:I always say 12 pages to describe an orange and you're like no.
Speaker 4:I read those books and I'm, like you know, as a crime writer. Every word is important. If it's not in the story, my agent, my editors, are just going to cut it out. You know why? Why would you leave? Anyway, let's not talk down on the writers. They're also OK to read, but listen, if we can have crime writing festivals oh, I just looked at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I'm doing okay, yeah, we've got five minutes, so there's another question. Grace did writing about such deep crime change your outlook on the world or how you view things mentally not for me, I think, because for me, I think, everybody, we all live in a world of gray.
Speaker 3:I think we all have the capacity to be good and bad, and I think, understanding that and for me, as I said, for me, every character, even if they're on the page for just one minute, I build them. I know why they're there, I know why they're doing what they're doing. So there's nothing as pure evil and nothing as pure good. I imagine there might be that in real life, but in my books there isn't. So I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a smiley, happy person in general and that's not going to change. But you know, when I write it, I, you know I give people a reason for being who they are. So it sort of keeps me because I know why I am who I am and I and I and and I sort of have a bit more empathy for people, I imagine. So, you know, I'm still, I'm still. It hasn't affected me mentally, but yeah, there are some dark stuff that happens in my book.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm good what about you, dorothy especially?
Speaker 2:maybe smile you fake yeah, yeah, that was actually really disturbing, actually writing every smile you fake, because there was a lot of stuff that I discovered Stuff you kind of know about social media, about the online world, our online lives, because our lives are so much online and I don't talk about things like this, I'm talking about. You know payments and stuff like that. You have to register for stuff. You need a smartphone. You need a smartphone and you know people can track you and your data is sold and used by people you know, as Leigh was talking about, with the billionaires who are just like they have all this information on you book.
Speaker 2:I write I learned something more about the world and I did learn a lot from the ice cream girls onwards about how the world views people, and I mean, recently there's been a lot of talk about the perfect victim and reason why I wrote tell me your secret was because of the idea of the perfect victim and how they don't exist, but women this was about women, but women are expected to be perfect and therefore, if something happens to them, you know they have to justify almost people investigating the crime against them or what happens to them. So, yeah, it kind of my eyes have been opened in very many different ways. The more I write crime books, yeah.
Speaker 1:What about you Lo?
Speaker 4:Yeah, mentally, writing crime stories has made me has changed me in that I now think, damn, I can make a lot of money from crime If I can write characters that can get away with crime, if I can think them up, dude, maybe I should be doing crime, Maybe you should not. That's the only thing that's changed. I started off with a criminal mind anyway, so that kind of helped. I think you're all criminals. You're not admitting it to yourselves. Who me? Yeah, you're criminals. You enjoy're not admitting it to yourselves. Who?
Speaker 1:me. Yeah, you're criminals, you enjoy crime I know not what to do, but that's because of working in criminal law for 20 years.
Speaker 3:Can I get away with it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I reckon I could, but that's not what this special.
Speaker 3:Yeah, even I reckon we could, I reckon I could.
Speaker 4:I'm afraid of the mind that comes up with the kind of gory details right in your book.
Speaker 1:You're talking about me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought, say it, say it, preach, mate, because seriously, sometimes I go. Do you know what? She's one of the nicest people I've ever met, but my goodness, some of the things she writes.
Speaker 1:It's scary. I am a delight you are.
Speaker 4:She gave me a ride from Wands. Was it from Harrogate? No, it wasn't.
Speaker 1:Why is she giving you a ride, one from?
Speaker 4:Harrogate and one from Chiltern Hills. I was scared throughout. You know I'm like no, you was not. You were with her. I was texting people, Nadine's giving me a. How am I going to make it? You thought I was doing what we call the Nigeria fam thing. You know like, hey, look at me, I'm with Nadine. No, I'm saying look, last seen with, I've seen the way she kills people.
Speaker 1:In my books In my books, not in real life Right before we go, because this has actually been a delight, but we do have to go. But I'm going to ask you what are you working on next, eamon? What are you working on next? Because you said you only plan to do three.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I only plan to do three but luckily, I guess, good problems to have. I am writing a standalone, separate other thing. I wouldn't say it's close to being autobiographical. It's about, you know, a person that was raised in Lagos going back to Lagos because his sister has been killed to sort of not initially investigate the murder but he ends up having to investigate murder and it's it's sort of like Nigeria in a different light. It's, you know, sort of high fashion, high music. You know the other end of of Nigeria people are not really aware of, like extreme wealth and you know it, it will bring in politics and all the other stuff, but just people that live no different from you know exorbitant lives that you see everywhere else. People think these things don't happen in africa. But I wanted to just plant you in that sort of like life or people live like this and how crime sort of factors in there, and I think it'd be. You know, I'm really excited about it and so I'm going to do it and and go back to you know, pretty boy, serious. So that is what I'm writing at the moment and yeah, um, in case my agent is listening, yeah, I'm well ahead well ahead like well hey
Speaker 1:like yeah we use these moments to let our agents know yeah, yeah, I'm right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely I want it, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1:Dorothy, what are you working on next? What?
Speaker 2:are you working on now? Well, the next part of our project we're launching this week I'm going to be writing. This November I'm going to be writing, or starting, the second Bacon Detective novel. You know, I wrote the self. I self-published the book that was connected to the character from my other husband. She's a writer and she writes the bacon detective stories and I wrote one. So I'm going to write the sequel because I enjoyed it so much. It was such a different way of writing. It wasn't a doris coombs novel, it was a clear foursome novel and I could do whatever I liked.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to be doing that next, okay, and you lay what are you working on?
Speaker 4:I'm working on a new series. It's called the bad coach series. It's a nigerian former policeman who's a an executive coach in the UK but his clients are metropolitan police officers who've had a spot of trouble like excessive use of force, unconscious bias and stuff like that. So they send these people to. Their crime is not enough for them to be let go of immediately, so sometimes they send them to Bobby Fatoku, who's just going to talk to them and, you know, do what coaches do and at the end of the day it would say whether or not he believes that they can continue in their role. And once in a while, when these officers have experienced the power of coaching, they come back after the Met has sent them to him. They come back when they're stuck with a case and so he gets involved being the coach of the investigator. He gets involved. He's a policeman. The first book, hallelujah. Interestingly it's about when the Pentecostal pastor blackmails the royal family. He retires.
Speaker 3:I love church don't you, I'm having fun.
Speaker 2:You're so cool, you just go there, don't you? You just don't care.
Speaker 4:For real.
Speaker 1:He just takes it to a level.
Speaker 4:For real when the Pentecostal pastor blackmails the royal family, a retired spy carries out an unauthorized operation on the streets of London and in the middle of all this is Bobby Fatokun, our man from Lagos.
Speaker 1:It's amazing, I feel like I just have to add. What am I doing? Well, I finished my book four in my Henley series, so there's more stuff for you to um be disturbed about. Play in that one and so and I'm just enjoying my little bit of quiet. But I'm writing a short story Hitchcock inspired at the moment, and then I'm planning a standalone. So that is what I am up to so that just leads me to say well.
Speaker 1:Firstly, thank you to everyone who joined us, because I can see you all in the chat having a whale of a time. So thank you to everyone who joined us tonight, and can I say a special, special thank you to Lea Denley, eamon Olongi and Dorothy Coombs for joining me for this special live episode of the Conversation. Thank you very, very much. Thank you very much. I'm going to say goodbye to them, but I'll see you all later, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadinemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
