Embracing Diversity in Truth and Perspectives With Clair Goodman White

I am in conversation with Clair Goodman White on a thought-provoking journey through the kaleidoscope of perspectives and truths. We delve into the transformative power of recognizing strengths, the interconnectedness of diverse viewpoints, and the dynamic shifts in interpretation. 

In this compelling conversation, we explore the intersection of spirituality, psychology, and coaching philosophy, guided by the wisdom of Les Misérables and the metaphor of water in its various states. 

From understanding the fluid nature of truth to honouring the richness of diverse perspectives, we uncover how embracing the kaleidoscope of human understanding fosters inclusivity, empathy, and deeper insights into personal growth and relational dynamics. 


Discover the beauty in the mosaic of truths and the harmony found in the synthesis of varied perspectives, as we navigate the complexities of existence and cultivate a safe and brave space for exploration and self-discovery.

You can connect with Clair Goodman White here: https://www.clairgoodmanwhite.com

Transcript

PMD: 0:27

I'm really honored to have a truly exceptional guest with us today. A mother, wife, church elder, friend, and coach dedicated to seeing others grow. Her journey's been shaped by a rich tapestry of experiences blending academic excellence, extensive professional expertise, and a deep commitment to guiding individuals towards their goals. With a background in clinical child psychology, our guest brings a unique lens to the conversation. Her coaching philosophy is a masterful dance of recognizing strengths, challenging individuals to explore new strategies, teaching invaluable skills, and providing unwavering support and today we're going to unravel the layers of her origin story, exploring the influences that have crafted her into the insightful and compassionate individual she is, and beyond her professional endeavors our guest believes in the transformative power of appropriate communication, the necessity of healthy relationships for growth, and the untapped potential within every individual. She envisions a world where empathy flourishes, balance prevails and personal values act as guiding lights in the intricate dance of life. A church elder, a volunteer, and a seasoned therapist with experiences ranging from community mental health centers to inpatient psychiatric hospitals. Our guest brings a wealth of wisdom to our conversation. So join us today as we delve into her beliefs, values, and inspirations that have shaped her journey, including the profound influence of Les Miserables on her understanding of grace, humanity, and the depth of love. Without further ado, I'm delighted to introduce to you the exquisite and incredible Claire Goodman White, a beacon of wisdom and compassion in our exploration of truth and human connection. Claire, welcome to Transcendent Minds Podcast.

CGW: 2:29

Thank you. It is so good to be here, especially after an introduction like that. That, that sounded great.

PMD: 2:36

You've done so much in your life and you've been a mother, a wife a church elder, a dedicated coach, and all these roles that you've weaved together and experiences have really created what I can see in you as a whole tapestry of wisdom and it's grounded in that whole background of clinical child psychology. So tell us a little bit about what shaped your experiences?

CGW: 3:04

You mentioned all those different aspects of life and one of my passions is helping people recognize that it doesn't matter what context you're in or what role you're playing. You are your same self that you carry into all of those different places and so looking back over those experiences, they don't even seem like they're separate. It all comes together. And had different impacts and influences on the way that I felt through my life and the beliefs that I developed and the values that I crafted through the years. And I'm a huge influence, obviously, as people, different relationships influence us in different ways the good, the bad and the ugly. So again, as I look back over all of those years and those experiences there were people and relationships in each context that absolutely shaped me into who I am, some for the better, some maybe not so much great experiences and relationships, but still shaped informed me into who I am today.

PMD: 4:00

Can you share any specific elements from your background experiences that shaped your multifaceted roles as a mother, church elder, friend and coach, and how do these diverse roles contribute to your understanding of truth, growth and healthy relationships?

CGW: 4:18

Oh, wow. That's a big question. On the personal side, relationships, even corrective relationships. So growing up, I had a certain experience in my family of origin and then I was very fortunate to have what I consider a corrective experience with another family that I got very close to and people who stepped in and maybe filled some roles and met some needs that I had that weren't being met in my particular family context, and then fast forward to even the professional training and development. My spiritual journey really started during my stint as a graduate student in a clinical psychology program and when you combine spiritual development with clinical training, it can seem like they're two completely separate entities and in some ways they seem like they would conflict. But because of the timing of everything that was happening within and around me they really came together. And for me those two go hand in hand and they don't conflict with one another. My spiritual beliefs and my educational training did not end up being two separate entities. They formed help for me and my thinking and my beliefs and my way of even entering into professional roles in tandem. I'm a clinician or right now I work as a coach rather than a therapist with a particular spiritual bent and with very deeply ingrained values and beliefs.

PMD: 5:46

I can see that you navigate diverse roles. I appreciate where you are right now, but facing the challenges of navigating the complexities of all of these various roles, the demands of motherhood responsibilities of being a church elder, the nuance dynamics of coaching. They all pose challenges in their own way. And I think the challenges lays in finding the balance between these roles and avoiding the potential pitfalls of burnout and overwhelm. In your journey, what unique challenges did you face in balancing the responsibilities of motherhood, being a church elder and fulfilling your role as a coach? How did you navigate these challenges?

CGW: 6:32

Oh, that's such a great question and this is why I end up helping a lot of people do in my coaching practice and maybe partly because I had this experience and I get it. I understand how easy it is to fall into that space of overwhelmed. You mentioned values and values are I think the foundation of absolutely how I live my life and how I hope other people are living their lives. And so for me, I have certain values that I will not be able to live into and live out if I do not balance those different roles and responsibilities. Some of my deepest core values surround the importance of relationships especially in my family. So if I'm putting my all into professional context or even volunteering and doing things with the church, and I'm not spending the time and developing the relationships and the depth of relationships that I think are really important in my family, things are going to feel off kilter. So this is where the big part of my coaching practice revolves around helping people with whole health. So whole health being, really attending to and promoting health in five core areas of our being and when I do that, it's not coming from a place of hey, theoretically, this is a good idea. This is me in my life. I have lived this out and I recognize the importance of being healthy emotionally, physically, mentally, relationally and spiritually, because when I don't attend to health in those five core areas, it is very easy to get off balance to start not living out those values, and to feel that overwhelming that stress that ends up impacting every single role and responsibility that I try to fill.

PMD: 8:10

To overcome these barriers, you have to take those actions to find some kind of equilibrium. I think balances is a strange word. There's no balance is really in life. Everything is up and down. It's difficult to achieve a balance, but you obviously strategically manage your time and energy. You've made conscious decisions to integrate the diverse aspects of your life, ensuring that each role has contributed positively to the others, but as you actively sought about this balance in your life, what specific actions did you take to integrate the diverse aspects of your roles, but also ensuring that each contributed positively to the other.

CGW: 8:56

I mentioned the whole health piece of my coaching practice, my kind of niche area is parent coaching. And a lot of what I do is encourage people in relationships and communication, as well as discipline and behavior management and things like that. That absolutely comes into play when I'm parenting my own kids. So there are times where I have to stop myself and step back and recognize okay, in this role, I might default to this behavior or tendency, but I know from this other role that I have what the appropriate thing to do and so carrying some of that into the different contexts has been tremendously helpful. And then the same even in church, it's easy to say, Oh, I take my spiritual stuff into all these other contexts and it makes everything, great. I take some of that stuff into my work in the church as well and so I don't separate my clinical training from what I do when I'm talking to congregants at the church or shepherding people or leading in different ways I carry that all in there and it absolutely helps make it a more well rounded role and work. So you what you were talking about? It's being intentional, right? it's doing things on purpose instead of the sort of accidental way that we often live our lives and enter into those different roles, and we certainly do not put on different hats. We can try to say we're shifting from this role to this role because we're switching context, but we can't actually do that. We are the same person that enters into each of those spaces. So let's do that in healthy ways and let's integrate and incorporate those different. learnings and activities and values from one kind of job in context to the next and it's going to make for richer experiences all around.

PMD: 10:41

I think that's so important to be authentic, because that's a precursor to self love. The role may change, but what you bring to that role, your values and your standards and your principles, they all dovetail into those different roles. In navigating this balancing act how did your coaching philosophy emphasizing work play, I'm not going to say work play balance, work play relationship and recognition of strength, inform the decisions you made in managing those various responsibilities.

CGW: 11:16

I talk a lot about stress just because it incorporates a lot of different experiences and emotions and things like that. I think all of us figure out pretty quickly that when we feel stress in any aspect of our lives, it affects other aspects of our lives and just having those experiences, I think everybody falters into adulthood, right? We don't figure all of this stuff out before we become adults and start having all of these responsibilities. And so sometimes it's a trial and error thing, or we just, we goof up and then we grow. And yeah, I think a lot of it really comes from, or stems from not having that equilibrium and when I say balance, I'm with you, I don't mean like exactly the same amount of everything. It's just like figuring out what the ratio is for you, but but being able to balance or find that appropriate interplay between things like work and play, being serious and being silly is so important to manage that stress because if we're constantly working, if we're constantly, doing things that don't contribute to that balance or equilibrium, it's so easy to feel that overwhelmed, feel that stress, and then, everything suffers. Everyone suffers.

PMD: 12:25

I think in society we have got it all wrong, we need the rest and the recovery to do the holy work, whether that's coaching or in church or whatever contributes to the amplification of our purpose of God's purpose of that light, but we tend to run ourselves into the ground foot on the gas and then it's the weekend and then we try and recover from it, but I think we need to shift we need to switch polarities and say, no, actually, we need the rest, we need the recovery and that can be active rest and active recovery where there is nurturing going on and the right amount of time to spend whether it's silence or meditation or reflection. Can we rethink what it means to be human, and how do we nurture this temporary appearance, this part of God's property. How do we nurture and give it sustenance? A pivotal moment for you was the realization of the transformative power and recognizing strengths and I don't know if it was an epiphany for you, but if it was I see it's probably a driving force in your coaching philosophy from what I've gleaned from our conversation, and it was the inciting incident that propelled you to see beyond challenges and focus on the untapped potential within individuals. Can you share a specific moment or experience that led to your epiphany regarding the transformative power of recognizing strengths, and how did this realization shape your coaching philosophy.

CGW: 14:08

I think even identifying strengths is a huge step in the right direction. So I think for any of us, we're so prone to focus on our weaknesses and the things we need to change about ourselves oftentimes we don't stop and recognize hey this thing about me isn't necessarily a weakness. Maybe this thing that I was even perceiving as a weakness is a strength. So recognizing the things in us that we can harness and use for good or in productive and healthy ways I'm on this journey and I'm on the journey. I'm not there yet, but I had this big epiphany even just a couple of days ago about my wiring. So I'm an Enneagram fan. It's a tool that I have found is incredibly useful for understanding ourselves and the people around us I'm a one. I'm a perfectionist, so I have really high standards and I don't ever feel like I am good enough. This is my big epiphany, right? There are things that I knew for a long time, but there are things that really started to shift in me recently and a big part of that is recognizing, and this is what I think is beautiful about the Enneagram, that I'm not broken. I'm not messed up for being the way that I am. I just am this way and in fact, there's so many people wired like me that there's an entire chapter in a book about it. There's a whole type that's written about it. So there's something that's very normalizing and also validating about that resource, but recognizing these things that to me often feel like broken parts of me or things that are not maybe necessarily good. I can reframe them. I can see them through a different lens and recognize, wait, not only are they not bad, but maybe there are things, ways that I can use them to even transform them in my mind into strengths. There are things that are difficult and challenging for me because of the way that I am that actually benefit some of the work that I do and the people around me. Some of those things, there's a, a flip side to that for sure.

PMD: 16:08

There's always a shadow side to things. But if you were to incorporate that insight into your coaching, could you share a story where recognizing those things in an individual led to a profound and transformative change in their life or in your life?

CGW: 16:25

Can I use an example for a parenting pair, because this is something I've seen this happen with multiple families where we're doing this to work, parents come in and we start talking about parenting and it becomes really clear at the onset that when two people come together and start parenting they recognize how differently they see things and are wired so different for every family, but oftentimes, at least the people who come to me for coaching are struggling because the two people have different approaches. They have different lenses, different perspectives on what's happening, and therefore they respond very differently to challenges in the home. And as we talk about those, it's important to acknowledge first, like what's actually happening and it's so easy to point to the other person and say this is the problem. It's because, and a lot of times one of the parents doesn't get really worked up. Like somethings happening with the kids and one parent gets very emotional and feels very invested in this and wants to jump on it like we've got to do something, we got to do something now, we got to do something serious and important and big. And the other parent is sitting back kinda I don't know if it's that big a big deal. Let's be level headed about this, and so one tends to be highly emotional about this situation and the other one tends to not be as emotional and it's so easy to point to that second parent and say, you don't care. It just seems like you don't care. You're just letting this happen. You don't feel as invested in this kid as I do, or, whatever phrasing they use, it's usually viewed as a negative. You just don't have feelings or you don't care and it's helpful to be able to step back and recognize first of all, yeah, that person is not getting as emotional about it as you are because they're wired differently. That's just not their M. O. And also there's a benefit to that, especially when we're talking about parenting pairs, when we're talking about co parents or parenting teams. If one is more emotional and really invested, it's actually pretty helpful to have the other person be a little bit less emotionally charged and yeah, step back. And that's why I find that I'm constantly reminding people are pointing out the way that you guys compliment each other, the way that you're different wirings. And I would say strength. compliment you and an ideal parenting pair but until you view it that way, you're not going to be able to feel those intense emotions when things happen. So that's one of those areas where it's actually a strength that second parent is able to manage their emotions or maybe even not feel those intense emotions when things happen. That's a strength. That's a helpful thing in that situation, but until you view it that way a lot of times that other parent thinks that's a fault. That's a brokenness. That's a problem in that unemotional person.

PMD: 19:27

It's a question of balance and approach because everybody has different styles, different ways of being. Now someone's approach can be fantastic, but their reasoning may be terrible or their reasoning is absolutely spot on right on the money, but their approach is terrible and until you find middle ground between those two things, then you get an incompatibility of alignment and that's where the conflict can start to enter because one person sees it one way the other person sees it the other. It's like a triangle. If the bottom of the equilateral triangle is positive and negative and the apex is neutral. If you're standing at the positive and negative, you're looking at each other going, if you stand at the neutral point, then you see both sides. It doesn't mean you're neutral you don't do anything. It's not like a car being in neutral. It just means you're able to assay and look at both sides because many times the heart of the matter can only be seen from afar. I want to touch on your coaching wisdom because it's clear to me you stand as a beacon of coaching wisdom, drawing on your experiences as a therapist in diverse settings and your profound belief in the potential of every individual and obviously your background in clinical child psychology combined with the epiphanies and climatic moments in your coaching journey has what I see is shaped and molded you into an insightful and compassionate coach. In your current role as an insightful and compassionate coach, how do your experiences as a therapist in diverse settings influence your coaching approach?

CGW: 21:25

There's a fine line there and it has taken me years to draw that line. Yeah, I would say in super practical ways, it's like I have the knowledge, even if I'm not applying the therapeutic techniques, I'm aware of the diagnostic criteria, so I know when to refer out, I know when when things are at a point of being impairing and needing to be addressed with more intensive services but more than that, I'm able to take a lot of the theoretical and even some of the applicable applications and really apply it for families. So I take a lot of what I learned in clinical psychology and translate it to everyday practices, everyday language. Most people don't need to understand the theory behind certain things or the research even. Sometimes they just want to know what would be helpful in this situation. And so it's really nice to be able to draw on some of that background information that I have and say here's something that may help and again I'm not treating intensive, diagnosable issues. I'm helping people just manage everyday stressors and make sure they're healthy again in those 5 areas. But the crux of what I do is stress management, especially, as you mentioned, being here, living in America, maybe this is more a cultural thing than anything else but there is this demand to be productive and to be busy and yeah, to do all the things and it's something that I'm finding across the board and across all ages, people really need help figuring out how to handle it and manage the stress in life.

PMD: 23:05

It's quite a pressure where everything's about materialism and being busy being successful and there's nothing wrong with being successful and making money. There needs to be ethical capitalism to understand the needs of the human being not in terms of being a commodity and people sometimes tend to treat each other as a commodity as distinct from what does it actually mean to be human. How do we nurture, support each other? How do we build those strong connective, collaborative communities or common unity so there is a strong connective thread between us where we support each other. You've mentioned, I love this, you've mentioned Les Mis, Les Miserables as a significant literary inspiration. And I've got to ask you how do the themes Les Miserables resonate with your coaching philosophy and can you share an example of how you incorporate these themes in facilitating growth and understanding in your clients?

CGW: 24:11

Yes. Thank you. It's funny. So I grew up, my mother would take us to the theater as we were growing up. We'd go up to Chicago and sometimes shows would come to Indy. We'd go to New York. I saw Les Mis several times as a child and I loved it. I loved it for the story. It's a fantastic story and I was able to really appreciate it on a superficial level. And then as my faith developed, I realized, Whoa, there's a whole different level to this story and the depth of it just hit and it made me appreciate it even more. And first of all, I would say it's an awesome story for that reason, because no matter where you're coming from spiritually or contextually you can appreciate it in different ways. As I started to understand the deeper spiritual ramifications of the story and really the themes that were in there it hit deep into that understanding of goodness that goes beyond behavior. I talk to people all the time. We tend to focus on this surface level, what we see people do, the behaviors, things like that and I think it's so important to understand on that deeper level, what is happening within someone who they are, what motivates them, what their values are. Let's speak to that. Quick plug for let's talk more about that, especially in our families but with the people close to us. The different characters. So obviously Javert and Jean Valjean are wildly different in their approaches to life, the way they see things, their perceptions, we could do a little Enneagram study on them. I love this idea of objective truth because I actually don't think any of us has complete access to objective truth, but a lot of us are looking toward the same truth. So you get Javert looking at what they consider to be truth and they're both deeply spiritual men, right? And they're both trying to follow the will of God and really submit to God, but they see things so differently and they have such a different understanding of that truth. And that's where it absolutely connects with my professional approach, because that is one of the things, especially when I'm talking about cognitive health,but absolutely relational health too, this comes into play. We see things differently. We perceive things differently. Multiple people can be looking at the same truth and talking about the same thing that happened or experience they had or whatever and just seems so completely different. And that doesn't mean that either one of them is wrong it's so easy to look at Javert and see him as the bad guy, but I think the older I get, and maybe this is part of being a parent, I start to recognize he wasn't bad, he wasn't wrong, he was totally justified. In viewing Jean Valjean the way that he did, he just didn't understand the depth and the deeper truth to what was going on. So very long winded answer to your question.

PMD: 27:05

It's a powerful book and has many lessons for life in it and in your coaching practice, how do you navigate the diverse perspectives and truths that clients bring to the table?

CGW: 27:19

By stepping back and just remembering I do truly believe that none of us is seeing the actual truth. So remembering that all the people that come in have their own lens and filter for a variety of reasons, but also I do too. So people come into my office, it's not like I'm the one who knows everything and I just have to guide them to the truth. It's really stepping back and I think there's a tremendous amount of humility in it in recognizing we all see things differently. None of us is necessarily right or wrong. There are certain things that behaviorally are wildly inappropriate and we really shouldn't do. But in terms of the way that we view things, and especially because we view things through these lenses that really are dependent on our experiences and training and backgrounds and all of that. We're going to see things differently and I think when we can step back and appreciate that and really with humility, acknowledge that person sees things that to them are true. And it is not my job to correct them or even to suggest or believe that what they're seeing is not. real or true for them?

PMD: 28:30

We see what we teach ourselves to see or what we've been taught to see and that's something that can reside in our unconscious and the references get played out through that perceptual lens when we're looking at something, we draw on that reference and then attach it to that and somebody else will have a different reference. Truth has many different facets to it. Was there ever an instance where acknowledging and honoring a client's truth where that happened, even when it differed from your perspective and led to a breakthrough in their personal development?

CGW: 29:11

I hope it happens often. So people come in and everybody talks about what they see. I think I personally am so much more interested in understanding why people see things a certain way or how they're seeing it. And again because it's not my job to correct them. And sometimes the work that I do is just helping them understand how they're seeing things and why they're seeing them that way, and then letting them go on that journey of maybe challenging some of those perceptions and beliefs and there's some great resources out there. There's work that can help people through that process of questioning. Is this what I really believe? Is this what I really want to believe? Is this how I want to view this person or situation? And that's awesome work to do. But yeah, it happens often that people just have that moment of clarity Whoa, wow, that's what's in there. That's what's driving that perception or understanding or belief about myself or other people.

PMD: 30:15

In your ability to recognize and honor diverse truths and how that shaped your coaching philosophy. How do you instill this value in your clients?

CGW: 30:28

For themselves or for them in relationships with other people?

PMD: 30:32

For themselves and in their relationships with others, because it's not about giving them the advice, they've got to set their feet upon their own path. You can guide them and say, here are some steps, but not all steps are equivalent. So I wonder how you would instill this value in your clients.

CGW: 30:50

Yeah. Encouraging them to notice, to be aware and this is the cognitive work that we do together, right? The first thing is, I call it inventorying our thoughts, like taking an inventory of our thoughts. Let's just stop for a second and think about what we're thinking, which people very rarely do. But let's pay attention to those beliefs that we have those thoughts that are running through our heads every day about a variety of things and just notice them and acknowledge them and start to recognize that yes, some of those thoughts are perceptions they are filtered through your lens and they're not necessarily the same as other people's, and that's where that value comes in that recognition oh, I see things this way and it's not that I am right and other people are wrong or vice versa. There are just different ways of seeing things and just getting to a place where we can acknowledge. That is an awesome initial step. And then there are steps that we can take beyond that. I absolutely encourage people to do again and to encourage this understanding or honoring of other people's truths and perspectives, that's where I think empathy comes in listening, understanding, seeking first to understand all of that comes into play. And I think that's when we can use a lot of those skills is just take a minute and stop and try to understand why this other person sees it differently, why they have a different truth, why they perceive it the way that they do not in order to challenge it or to prove anything, but just to understand. How they're seeing it and why they're seeing it that way and there is so much that comes out of that work for people, especially in relationships and I don't just mean personal relationships. Sometimes it's work relationships. When you understand the people around you a little bit better. There's a cohesiveness that naturally comes from that and an honoring. You do not have to change your perception. You guys do not have to figure out how to start seeing things the same way. You just need to recognize that you see things differently, understand why you see things differently. And there's a peace that often comes from that. Understanding breeds compassion. It just does and we tend to have very different interactions and relationships with people when we understand them on that deeper level.

PMD: 33:19

That's beautiful.. I know we spoke last time we talked quite a bit about the kaleidoscope and truth and something I was thinking about is it was a strange thing. I was looking at water and I was trying to draw parallels between the different states of vapor, solid and fluid and the diverse manifestations of truth. Because really at the end of the day, it's all water and if you imagine truth that it's a vaporous state, akin to water evaporating in the atmosphere that in a way represents the ethereal nature of subjective truths and personal perspectives. And like vapor, these truths are elusive, floating freely and adapting to the ever changing currents of individual experiences. They don't have a tangible form as such, but they contribute to the dynamic landscape of truth. I was wondering how do subjective truths, like a vapor, shape our perceptions of reality because in what ways can acknowledging the vaporous nature of truth enhance our understanding of those diverse perspectives. If we take truth as vapor, that's one manifestation of it. We take it as solid that resembles ice crystallizing from water and solid truth represents to me foundational principles, universal laws, objective realities that stand really firm amidst the fluidity of human interpretations. Those truths provide a stable framework because they offer reliability, when we navigate the complexities of existence. Then the question is how do foundational truths like solid ice serve as anchors in life explorations, in what situations might a recognition of solid truth be essential for a balanced understanding of reality? That would be the solid part of it. But if we look at it as fluid then we can direct water, but it will always go its own way. And in this discussion is how does the fluidity of truth contribute to the richness and complexity of discourse?

CGW: 35:40

I guess it depends on how you define truth, right? If we're talking about there is an objective truth, we may not have access to it, but if we believe that there is a particular Objective truth out there, then yeah the ice, the solid foundational stuff is what we're constantly seeking or looking toward. So I think of an iceberg or a huge ice cube and we're all looking at it. And we might be seeing it differently and experiencing it differently, but I think the fluidity is that none of us can actually see the ice. None of us can see that for what it is. We only can see through our lenses and all of our lenses are different. So the fluid part of it, I think is as we make sense of it so our interpretation of it, our perception of it is what's fluid because that's different for every single person. We might be looking at the same objective truth but we all interpret it or perceive it differently. And then maybe the vapor is the, okay, so let's talk about it. Let's try to make sense of those different interpretations, the different ways that we understand it and that's the thing that it is nebulous, because we might not ever agree on what the frozen version, the solid version really is or looks like, because none of us can see it without our lenses, without our filters. And so the way that we understand things, like none of us understand something as it just is. We only understand it through our maps of reality. Ernest Holmes, Spencen. I'm finally saying his name, right? He did some great work. He uses Byron Katie's the work and translates a little bit, but he talks about these maps of reality and our maps of reality are made up of so many different experiences that we've had and things that we've learned and all of that and we filter everything through that. I do believe that there is the solid water there. There is that objective truth. I just don't think we can see it as that. We only see the fluid version of it, which is our interpretation.

PMD: 37:45

That's really interesting perspective because you know we were talking about the kaleidoscope and how that creates the unique patterns with each turn and that unfolds through an infinite combination of perspectives. So it represents a new viewpoint, every time we turn that as an analogy, but that also contributes to the ever expanding mosaic of human understanding and to me those vibrant colors symbolize the diversity of ideas and experiences that shape our collective perception of truth. I wonder in what ways can embracing that diversity of viewpoints enhance our appreciation of the intricate patterns within the kaleidoscope of truth.

CGW: 38:32

I think it would be a game changer for society, if each of us could understand that and not step into situations demanding that we are right. I see it. I see truth. You just need to understand my perception of it because I've got this figured out. It's a very arrogant approach, but of course we all believe wholeheartedly in what we see and the way that we're perceiving things and so it's not that is bad. It's the insistence that our version of the truth is right that I think can be really detrimental and if we could step back and say yeah, I've got a great perspective on this and also this other person might be able to add something and if I stop and listen to this other person and then listen to the other person and all these other people, I might walk away with a fuller understanding of what the actual truth looks like. I might still not have access to it entirely. I'm going to understand it better if I can with humility step back and listen to other people's perceptions and perspectives and try to put all of our ideas and thoughts and beliefs together to better understand what this truth is and that's where, the colors, the kaleidoscope thing is, it's beautiful because it is the different colors and shapes that really make it such an appealing thing to look at. We hold it up to the light and we're mesmerized for a minute, and it wouldn't be nearly as interesting if it was all gray, if all the little beats in there were the same, it would still be cool to look at. But it would lose a lot of its vitality and diversity. So yeah, I think that's the benefit.

PMD: 40:10

When you emailed me we talked about topics and you, really sparked my imagination. Because I was thinking a lot about measurement and interpretation and the dynamic shifts in interpretation. Because we could all measure certain things and we measure it in different ways. Sometimes we can't give interpretation to it because we don't have the articulation or the language because it might be something new. But sometimes we can interpret things and I think that kaleidoscope's magic lies in its ability to create those dynamic shifts in patterns with a slight movement. So truth, in a way, undergoes constant reinterpretation and evolution. As we engage in inquiry into the truth, then surely our perspectives and interpretations of truth may transform, so it may create new and unexpected patterns within the kaleidoscope of understanding, and it makes me wonder in what situations might there be a willingness to embrace shifts in our interpretation of truth, which will lead to deeper insights and understanding.

CGW: 41:28

I hope we have those especially in our relationships with others. We had this in that previous conversation that we had, and it happens all the time just the other night, having a conversation with my husband and I was talking about something that I'd been thinking, some written form that I was creating, and just the process of having a dialogue about it helped to enrich not just my communication of the ideas, but my understanding of what I was even trying to understand and communicate and create. And so there is a richness and a depth and it is additive when we end up communicating that with other people so that interplay, that interchange of ideas and thoughts, and that communication itself with people is so imperative to our own understanding, our own interpretations, sometimes just the process of talking about it with another human being can help form our thoughts and perceptions and give us the language and the ability to not just communicate, but to understand within ourselves what it is that we're thinking and feeling.

PMD: 42:31

The other thing that really struck me within the context of the kaleidoscope analogy is the harmony in diversity because the beauty of the kaleidoscope is that what emerges from it is this harmonious blending of diverse elements. And I think truth can find its richness in the synthesis of varied perspectives, because each unique shard of truth contributes the overall beauty of the kaleidoscopic whole if you will, and to me, that's a reminder of the interconnectedness and interdependence of ideas. So the question that came up to me about it was in what ways might recognizing the interconnectedness of perspectives foster a more inclusive and holistic understanding of truth?

CGW: 43:29

Yeah, I think it fosters an appreciation. I actually want to hear other people's perspectives and I appreciate them and I honor them because I now know that they contribute to the beauty, to the richness of what's coming through in that image. So I will value the other colors in the kaleidoscope because now I understand that when all of this comes together, when all of our ideas and thoughts and perspectives come together, something beautiful is created. Something better something evolves that wouldn't have if it was just me in that situation.

PMD: 44:03

In what ways do you think recognizing the interconnectedness of perspectives fosters a more inclusive and holistic understanding of truth.

CGW: 44:15

Yeah. I mentioned when we step back, when we can appreciate and honor what other people are bringing to the table, we don't necessarily have to agree with all of their ideas, even just recognizing other perspectives or other perceptions of things enriches our own. And I think it does. Again, if we're all looking toward the same truth, we can see a different angle. We can see a different piece of it that maybe we didn't see from our own vantage point and it can enlighten and enliven things in us that we didn't even realize prior to that. So I'm limited. My view, my perspective is limited. I have a particular vantage point. I have had experiences in training and I see the world a certain way because of my wiring and my experiences and I recognize, okay, I I'm here, and there are other people in other places that see things differently than I do, and as long as I can trust that we're looking toward the same truth, there is absolutely something I can get from hearing their perspective, their view, because, it's lighting up an aspect of whatever truth we're uncovering that I otherwise would never have seen. So in my limited narrow view, there are aspects of truths I can't see. I don't have access to them, but other people do because they've had different experiences. They're standing in different places around this truth and if I would just listen to them and honor them and value what it is that they have to share, I'm going to come way away with a richer and fuller understanding of that truth.

PMD: 45:49

It reminds me of when I lived in Morocco for several months when I was young and I went right down to the Southern tip of Morocco near the border of Mauritania. And I met the Bedouins there who are nomadic and I was an amateur photographer, and I wanted to take a picture of them. And the men were like, no, because you're stealing our soul. I was really interested in their culture and I wanted to document that. But for them their truth their belief is, I'd be stealing their soul. In the context of coaching how does the skill of acknowledging other people's truths and perspectives contribute to creating a safe and open space for clients to explore their truths?

CGW: 46:40

I think, it's acceptance. People feel accepted. They feel safe. If they're not constantly being corrected or told to be different if you have a place where you can just be and, that it's okay to be exactly who you are and how you are that absolutely contributes to people feeling comfortable and safe and when they feel comfortable and safe and are willing to be more open, they're more receptive and we can do a lot more of the important work that needs to happen in that space. But, yeah, I think starting with that place of giving people an opportunity to be understood and that just comes from showing up and being curious, being genuinely curious and interested in what people have to say and in the experiences they've had and then working to understand again, not just how they are, but why they are that way. I think that all contributes to yeah, safety and security and a willingness to again, be open and receptive.

PMD: 47:38

Because I see with what you do, you create a safe space for people and I maintain that if you create a safe space, it becomes a brave space that people can become fully self expressed because you understand them. You cultivate the soil for human skills to take root, which is a beautiful thing you do and where can people find you and do you have any parting words?

CGW: 48:08

I have so many words easiest way to find me I have a bio site that has all of the links to social media and different resources that I have and that's my handle there is Claire White coaching, but you can access everything through my website, which is clairgoodmanwhite. com and that's Clair with no E my name and on there there's a way to sign up for a mailing list. There's a way to reach out and contact me. And then there are also different resources for some of the whole health coaching work that I do and then also some parenting resources, a lot is on there about relationships and communication because that really is a big passion of mine, but yeah that's the best way to find me. Parting words I've been talking a lot this week about the connection between what we do so our behavior and what we think and feel. So that triad, that little triangle the constant interplay between our thoughts, feelings and behaviors. And when we talk about that burning need to be productive or do things constantly that stress us out and not prioritizing the healthy practices. I would encourage everyone to remember those 3 things cannot be separated, and I appreciate the work that you're doing with the podcast. I'm encouraging people to think about the mental space the thought space, do some of that cognitive work and really understand the way that our thinking affects the way that we exist in the world and the way that we feel and if I could give any words of encouragement to people, it's recognize that connection between your thoughts, feelings and behaviors and then do the work that you can to ensure that you're healthy in all those different areas. Those 3 come together and you can feel balanced healthy whatever word works for you but to feel what I consider wholly healthy and and be able to function in all the different ways and to feel that joy not to do it in a frantic frenzied state.

PMD: 50:05

I want to thank you for the holy work that you do and that's H. O. L. Y. and w. H. O. L. L. Y And it's been a real honor and a privilege to speak with you and talking about truth and there's so much to cover about truth. I think we scratched the surface of it and it's always an attempt because that's all it is an attempt to do a good job of it. But I want to thank you for giving us your expertise and your insights. What's been your experience today?

CGW: 50:35

It's been great. It's fun. It's fun to dig in and uncover this and to not step away with some answer. I love the thought space and and having a place to be able to process some of this stuff and not feel even the pressure to walk away with some feeling like, okay, we've arrived. We figured it out. We have all the answers. But yeah, just like you said before that safe and brave space to ask some of the questions and to ponder to consider and to think about some of this stuff on a deeper level.

PMD: 51:05

It's been real fun exploring with you and thank you for playing. Yeah. And for the work you do, cause you have compassion you have connection and the compassion and connection that you engender is a precursor to the conversation.

CGW: 51:23

Thanks so much for having me on today.

PMD: 51:25

You're most welcome and have you got anything in the pipeline?

CGW: 51:28

This long list of ideas and to dos so yeah I'm always working on content, so courses that I have available that people can consume at home just fresh ideas to put out there and share in different ways so yes, constantly churning. It's constantly a work in progress, which. doesn't bother me in the least bit. Thank you so much. It was really good to talk to you today. Thanks, Claire. Okay. Bye.