Between Wisdom and World: A Journey of Transcendent Leadership

This episode embarks on a philosophical exploration between Corey Jung and Peter, diving deep into spiritual leadership, ancient wisdom's relevance in modern times, and the immense potential for personal and collective transformation. 

They discuss the integration of ancient symbols like the Axis Mundi and Anahata Chakra into contemporary understanding of leadership, the impact of personal transformation on broader societal shifts, and the essential role of facing personal shadows, authenticity, and vulnerability in authentic leadership. 

The dialogue also touches on overcoming modern challenges through deeper self-awareness and reconnecting with the sacred in everyday life for harmony and enlightenment.

Transcript

PMD: 0:27

This is an in-depth conversation and a philosophical exploration between my friend, Corey Jung and myself on the topics of spiritual leadership, the interconnectedness of life, ancient wisdom and modern implications of embodying ancient symbols and principles in today's leadership. We delve into various subjects included, but not limited to the definition and anatomy of spiritual and transcendent leadership, the importance of self-awareness authenticity in leadership, the role of ancient symbols, like the Axis Mundi and, Anahata Chakra in understanding leadership, the impact of one's upbringing and past experiences on their present and future and the necessity of aligning one's actions with the universal values of goodness, beauty and truth. This conversation navigates through the challenges of modern society such as loneliness, epidemic consumerism and the loss of sacredness in everyday life. We attempt to offer insights on how to reintegrate these lost elements through a deeper connection with self, others and the natural world and we discuss the goal of achieving a higher state of consciousness and enlightenment both individually and collectively to lead humanity towards a more harmonious existence that represents and embodies ancient wisdom and spiritual principles in a contemporary context. So we're going to touch on the personal journeys of transformation and individuation emphasizing the importance of facing one shadow, embracing vulnerability, and pursuing a path of personal growth as foundational elements will authenticate leadership and we're going to explore how these personal transformations contribute to a broader societal shift towards a culture that celebrates interconnectedness compassion and the transcendence of ego-driven desires for the benefit of the collective. This discussion really serves as an invitation to you as our listeners to consider the depths of your own leadership potential and the impact of your actions in the world urging a shift towards a more thoughtful intentional and spiritually grounded approach to leading and living. So let's dive in. I've been working on spiritual leadership, looking at the anatomy of it and looking at all the different researches there are available on what spiritual transcendent leadership looks like from a mythopoetic cosmological lens as distinct from how we normally view leadership, in terms of, is it transactional, is it transformational, or is it transcendent leadership? So I'm doing research into that. The other day I started writing this thing out and I recorded it and I posted it as a 20 minute podcast, on my show. Something that came to me about leadership and I thought it's all very well when we talk about leadership in terms of when everything is going well, but what do we do when we're faced with adversity?

CJ: 3:55

Who comes to my mind right now. There's probably been a number of figures or history and present day, but one person who comes to my mind right away is Ernest Shackleton. Everyone survived. It was a miracle.

PMD: 4:06

Yeah, it was because of his leadership. I remember reading the book many years ago. I think it was called exploring leadership but it was a book about Sir Ernest Shackleton and I think there's a new edition now called leading with the edge or something like that. Anyways. I was looking at this from ancient times because we're both interested in myth. I'm looking at it from the mytho poetic cosmological sense. When we look at the Axis Mundi and what is called the Anahata chakra or the third eye. These were powerful symbols that represented the connection between the earthly and celestial realms and the seat of unconditional love and the gateway to higher consciousness and enlightenment. The Axis Mundi you may have seen it in many logos, but it's often depicted as a cosmic pillar or a tree or a mountain which symbolizes the center of the universe, where the heavens and the earth converged. It was this sacred pathway that linked all levels of existence from the underworld to the celestial homes of the deities and in ancient cultures, this access was represented by sacred structures. So the pyramids or I think it's pyramids or fire in the middle. or grand temples. These were all portals for communication with the divine. And I think that's just one part of it. I think there's also many more aspects of it. And there's also looking at the anatomy and methodology of transcendent leadership as well. There's the ancient part of it that I've been looking at. Another part is the Anahata Chakra, the heart which is regardless as the seat of divine love and compassion and spiritual transformation.. It was the radiant Lotus like vortex of energy that pulsated with the rhythm of unconditional love and empathy. And we can see this in the ancient yoga and tantric traditions that they were teaching was that by awakening the chakra you could transcend limitations of the ego and attain a state of profound unity and connections with all things. That's some of it. I'm also looking at the pineal gland and the third eye and there is a lot of symbology in ancient times that tells us there was incredible knowledge. If we look at the third eye, Because that is symbolized by the upward facing eye or luminous gem on the forehead that when I look at it, it represents the gateway to higher consciousness, intuition, spiritual insight, because it was believed at that time by activating the third eye one could pierce the veil of illusion and perceive the truth of existence and gain access to profound wisdom and mystical traditions. If I want to bring all that into the context of spiritual transcendent leadership in the 21st century. How can these ancient symbols be reinterpreted and embodied and enacted in modern ways. So that's a little bit about what I'm working on at the moment. Corey because I find it extremely fascinating that we all need to have the overall ability to be self-directed, but not by the patriarchal or hierarchal traditions that we've been inculcated with.

CJ: 8:05

If we don't lead ourselves, we're being led.

PMD: 8:08

Exactly.

CJ: 8:10

Present day, It's more for their benefit, not so much the common everyday person. It has more to do with commerce and control.

PMD: 8:20

Exactly. Also as systems are crumbling, and they are crumbling, it may not look like it, but it's a slow process. How can we represent the need as spiritual leaders in our own right to maintain a grounded yet elevated perspective so we can serve as a conduit for what I see as divine guidance, and it's wisdom to permeate the material world and you can see this in ancient times. You look at some of the sacred spaces and communities and practices that facilitated the connection between the mundane and the transcendent.

CJ: 9:05

Yeah I feel there's a great lack of that nowadays, injecting some of the sacred the underworld the everyday and I think you were mentioning something about as far as this collapse, it might not be so evident to some people. I don't know about you, probably the majority of the industrialized world should go to any metropolitan area, drive down the streets, look left and right you'll probably see all around you.

PMD: 9:31

Hardly sacred places anymore.

CJ: 9:34

I remember Joseph Campbell saying that in the old world, Europe before, present day United States, for instance, is that many of the older villages, the highest structures in the town horizons were usually spiritual centers, churches. You go to a major metropolitan nowadays, the highest thing that you'll see in the skyline is going to be often something having to do with commerce.

PMD: 10:01

Where I live, the church is the center point. If I look at the skyline, I see the spire of the church and even though many people don't go to church these days, but that was the center of this community. So everything was built around it. That became the spiritual center point. In terms of leadership is can we lead from the heart is the calling now, yes, we've got the left brain and analysis and calculus and all the rest of it, and that's all really important. But can we lead to embrace the interconnectedness of all life and to create environments that foster healing, understanding, and genuine connection. Because I see there's a necessity to develop our intuitive faculties so that we can perceive or step into the halls of perception beyond the surface of all things so we can access deeper insights and deeper revelations. So I see it as a calling in my life to cultivate a heightened state of awareness, to embrace the mysteries of existence and in my mentoring practices to guide others towards a profound understanding of their true nature and purpose. So these ancient symbols in our modern times they can manifest through various practices and as spiritual leaders and that's not a top down approach. I'm not talking about, the kind of kiss up or kick down approach, which is so old. That's the old paradigm that people get inculcated into in the corporate structure. It's either kiss up or being kicked down. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how do we embody these principles by fostering communities that celebrate the interconnectedness of life? How do we promote love and compassion not in a wishy washy way, but in a real way, and encourage the exploration of consciousness and spiritual growth.

CJ: 12:21

It's right under our noses. Is this a matter of embodying that and some of the things that are coming to my mind right now is maybe we can ask ourselves, each and every one of us can ask ourselves, what's our, why, what is our why and probably would also be helpful, define love because I feel that there's a number of interpretations out there, definitions and a good number probably aren't so healthy. There's a lot of dysfunction in love and not to divert so much from what you have in mind, what you're sharing right now, but I don't know if I've ever shared it with you. But I had quite an abusive upbringing by my parents and often when I would be getting a beating, they would say this I'm only doing this because I love you. You see what I'm saying? People's definition and how they enact love is a bit it's not well.

PMD: 13:10

That can become problematic because you can develop a superiority act because that's rooted in your inferiority past because of those things that happened beforehand. You can transmute that into something positive or negative, and that can manifest itself in different ways. If you are the abandoned child or the invisible child or the people pleaser child, that can manifest itself in different forms in your adult life, if you don't have the awareness, because I think that's got to be one of the first principles of empowerment is cultivating self awareness and authenticity, because that begins with a deep understanding of oneself. Like we've talked about the Temple of Delphi, know thyself. That involves regular self reflection, involves introspection, involves a willingness to confront our personal shadows and limitations, that involves embracing our authentic selves so we can lead with integrity and inspire others to do the same. When the S H I T hits the fan you don't want to be standing in front of it. You need the awareness to be able to predict those things, but also to operate out of an awakened awareness so that you have the resources through introspection, through all these different practices to meet those demands. So you're not perceiving it as a threat. You're seeing it more as a challenge to oneself, to one's behavior, to one's thought processes, and then what the outplay of that would be.

CJ: 14:58

It's a dance and it's not always straightforward and clear it might seem, it's not exactly easy, but I would say it's worthwhile, and it's to the betterment of all, and not just within ourselves this one lifetime, but throughout the generations ahead of us, I'd say.

PMD: 15:18

Absolutely. That's why I think the work we're doing now is not just for me or for you. It's what can we birth into the collective for the next generation or for those yet to come?

CJ: 15:31

Isn't there an ancient Greek saying where you plant trees, knowing that you'll never be able to sit under the tree shade. along those lines.

PMD: 15:39

Exactly. I was reading a book by James Hillman and he talks about the acorn and within the acorn is the forest. It's interesting because with clients that I speak to, they are the acorn. They just haven't liberated their forest or they don't know there's a forest there. Because an acorn can hold many trees, whereas a tree can hold some acorns that hold many trees. The acorn wants to liberate itself. People who go, I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to sell my condo, my apartment, buy a Winnebago and be a digital nomad. I no longer want to be a pharmacist. I want to be a creator. What is that? Is that a subpoena of some kind? What is the blueprint of the acorn? What is the mighty oak who wants to get liberated? Because it's a symbol of potential, not just for the growth of a single tree, but for the forest that could emerge from it within each person as a unique essence. In ancient times it's called your daemon, your genius that seeks expression and fulfillment. And that in a genius is not about the roles we play or the expectations we meet but about the true nature that defines us. When you conform to societal norms, you get confirmed and when you get confirmed the trajectory of your life follows a particular track as defined by others, not necessarily about the true nature that defines you as a unique expression of the divine. That means there's a journey. A journey of uncovering one's acorn, because that's a path of self discovery and that means you've got to peel away the layers of conformity to reveal the core essence beneath. Is it easy? No, it's not. If you want to go spiritual bypass, there is a lot of that, but if you want to do the work of it, no, it's not easy. You, me, we are living testaments of that. We've been into the rough and tumble of these practices.

CJ: 18:02

I was gonna say it's an initiation rite. It's a rite of passage. Yeah. Those aren't a cakewalk. You don't go through a rite of passage initiation with your feet kicked up. You're giving yourself as a sacrament in some ways in some people's language they might refer to this you're giving a sacrament to great spirit, for instance. And whatever you receive from great spirit yeah, you have to give something in order to receive. You don't get something for nothing here.

PMD: 18:30

After reading about the acorn, so many things came to my mind because I thought if you are to embrace the acorn within. It's risky, because it means stepping away from the known and the security into a life that is more authentic, but uncertain and what is beautiful about it is that when you look at the growth and contribution because as it unfolds into a forest, it not only grows itself, but contributes to the richness and diversity around it. I spoke to someone who worked in the financial sector. She soon realized that her true calling lay beyond spreadsheets and portfolios and I'm not disparaging people who work in the corporate sector or the financial sector. If that's what you do, great. That's your contribution. But for her, the rising realization was that the acorn was stirring within her, urging her towards a different path that aligned with her true inner essence. There was the feeling that she wanted to liberate her potential so that the acorn could take root and flourish. But she had to find the courage to let the inner self manifest in the outer world, because like you say, it is a system, each liberated acorn contributes to the forest of humanity and I've realized this when I live in alignment with my essence. I not only enrich my life, but the lives of others. It is a calling to each individual to honor their unique potential and to have the courage to let it guide them. And I see it as an invitation to live a life that is true to one's essence and I can attest to this, even if it means walking in the unknown and solitary paths because the emergence of that forest is one of diversity, is one of strength, is one of profound beauty.

CJ: 20:48

What came to my mind, you said something a moment ago, a vital person helps to vitalize. Joseph Campbell said, and so I guess however one is living in their life. Are they alive? I don't know what it is over there in the UK, but supposedly in the United States, I heard some time ago that the number one day of the week of people in the United States experiencing a heart attack. Do you have any idea?

PMD: 21:15

It's Monday. Monday. Yeah, Moonday.

CJ: 21:18

Yeah, because they're going to something that really doesn't enliven them.

PMD: 21:21

It's the same statistic here. That's the extreme version of not listening to the calling because they're always signs and there's always symptoms that is telling you that something needs to change and then you've got to change to meet those new requirements. But people don't like change. People want everything packaged.

CJ: 21:45

Some people consider the body as the unconscious mind and so when your body is trying to get your attention and you have some symptom, oftentimes it's telling you, yeah, pay attention and this is the truth. It's not interested in lying, because if it was to play that game, it would be a risk to our survival, and we probably wouldn't have made it here as a species. There's a Cherokee saying, if you don't listen to the whispers of your body, eventually you'll hear its screams. Nature as a teacher, our body as a teacher these symptoms are trying to get our attention, because the body has our best interest in mind, we don't exist in isolation, from the neck on up, it's also neck on down as well as the larger nature, beyond our small finite nature. Joseph Campbell said something like one of the main purposes of life is basically to match, I'm paraphrasing, to match your heartbeat with the heartbeat of the universe, basically to match your nature with nature.

PMD: 22:47

That means embracing service and contribution because at the heart of any kind of spiritual leadership is a deep desire to serve others and contribute to the greater good and that means you have to start to understand and use your gifts and your talents and your resources in a way that uplifts and empowers others and communities. If we are to navigate the complexities of the 21st century, we need to nurture resilience and adaptability. As a leader, we have to cultivate these qualities by embracing change and listening to those symptoms and looking for those signs and practicing a high degree of self care and maintaining a constructive and growth oriented mindset. That means we have to have, as John Verveke calls it, an ecology of practices that we can implement into our daily life, whether it's journaling or meditation or mindful movement, whatever resonates with you and to connect with others that align with our spiritual values and provide support and guidance. We can engage in meaningful conversations and contribute to causes that resonate with our purpose. It's not about adhering to a puritanical or rigid set of rules, but about embracing a way of being that fosters personal growth, compassion, and positive change, not only in ourselves, but in our communities in the world around us.

CJ: 24:37

Yeah, I agree. It's an ecosystem. That's what comes to my mind. And what is it self care? So self care or our own wellness, and it's what you said moments ago, a vital person helps to vitalize. So in the big picture, self care and wellness is not just myself being, but the we being ness ultimately because we don't exist in a vacuum, and that old saying that hurt people, the hurt of one is the hurt of all. So I imagine big picture, ideally the wellbeing of one could be the wellbeing of all. It could be like it could take over like a critical mass perhaps at some point.

PMD: 25:18

This comes down to self awareness and awareness of self and authenticity. Because I'm not talking about just a cognitive understanding of one's self, but a profound embodied awareness that transcends the limitations of the mind. Can I think beyond my experience? I know I can when I embody awareness because that is a state of being fully present and attuned to the subtleties of our thoughts and our emotions and our physical sensations. You cultivate a heightened state of consciousness where the perception of oneself and the world around us. comes with clarity and depth. The other part is authenticity and that is the courage to speak up, to express our true selves without fear or judgment. We have to have the willingness to shed the masks we wear, the persona and the roles we play to allow our genuine nature to shine through, which is usually quashed from a very young age, because does a mother or father parent the child or do they mentor the spirit?

CJ: 26:37

Sometimes the child parents the parent.

PMD: 26:40

Imagine if they mentored the spirit because of the work they've done on themselves and the understanding of that child's astrological fermentation, understanding that child's nature, its essence. How might they not only parent that child, but mentor their spirit?

CJ: 27:01

If we had a great number of those children being raised as such in a generation, we probably wouldn't have what we presently have today being said about Generation Z, for instance, right? That's supposed to have some of the highest mental health conditions compared to any other generation beforehand. It's concerning.

PMD: 27:22

This is why, I'm flying the flag of spiritual leadership and this is my attempt, to look at the anatomy and methodology of it to go beyond so we can start to explore What does it mean to embody, let's say, compassion and empathy? Not as intellectual concepts, but lived experiences that ripple throughout our entire being. Embodiment, for me refers really to the integration of qualities into our physicality, into this energetic presence, this way of being in the world. It's a visceral resonance that also recognizes the suffering of others. It's a felt sense of someone's pain and their joy and a deep longing to alleviate distress.

CJ: 28:17

Absolutely.

PMD: 28:17

If we have a true embodiment of compassion and empathy, you feel it, you have a physiological response. It's not just an academic perusal. You have a physiological response. You have a softening of the heart. You have a warmth in the chest. You have a sense of interconnectedness that extends beyond the boundaries of the self. Because it's your ability to attune yourself to the emotional energetic states of others to resonate with their experiences and to respond with a genuine care and understanding.

CJ: 28:55

What comes to my mind is that with this way of being, I imagine the person is not going to see others outside of themselves and not just humans, I'd imagine life at large, they're going to see it through the lens of divinity and if we had the whole world being in that way, we wouldn't be having many of the troubles that we have today. You'd have that visceral sense and relationship with self, other and as far as these silly games that we play with ourselves and others and then things start off and start to disintegrate. Yeah, we wouldn't be killing each other, would we? Because God isn't interested in killing God. It's nonsensical. It's insane. Unfortunately many of us don't see it that way, and we're not being in that way. So we're looking at the other as an other rather than a piece of ourselves, and the other isn't the in group, the out group, and rather than a thou, and a fellow passenger to the hereafter. It's tragic because what's the old saying, I forget what book, out of the Bible, but it goes something like this, the kingdom of heaven is across the land, but men do not see it. It's right here and now if we can see beyond the veil, if we can see beyond ourselves.

PMD: 30:15

That brings to the table interconnectedness and again, it's not merely an intellectual understanding, but a lived experience of the intricate web of life that binds us all together. It's having a profound realization that our existence, our temporary appearance on this planet is intimately intertwined with all beings and all of our actions have ripple effects that extend far beyond our immediate surroundings. So how do we foster unity to create spaces and practices that celebrate the interconnectedness or the intentional conservation of an environment where diverse perspectives are honored where open and respectful dialogue is encouraged, and where we collaboratively and collectively work towards the greater good of all. What would that look like?

CJ: 31:19

We would be having an embodied experience of the kingdom of heaven being here and now that's what comes to my mind. We'd have a bit more heaven than hell.

PMD: 31:29

I said to somebody the other day if you are looking at it from a hell perspective, it's what can I get? Whereas the heaven perspective is what can I do? What can I contribute?

CJ: 31:39

Plato. he wasn't one for gossip and if anyone came to him and started to gossip I guess he would ask three questions. And the question would be, is it good? Is it beautiful? Is it truth as far as what you're going to share and perhaps a good beauty and truth in another context, along these lines, as far as our thoughts, our words, our actions, our behavior. Is it good? Is it beautiful? Is it the truth and not just for us in this lifetime. I think we talked about this in the past Iroquois they're one people who come to my mind and they would consider at least seven generations into the future. This is bigger than ourselves, whether we see it or not, as Carl Jung said, he had above his doorway and on his tombstone the Latin inscription that translates to this whether seen or unseen, God is present. Or what we're speaking of here and now the divine, the sacred the whole, the wholeness, the oneness.

PMD: 32:39

Yeah, you reminded me is an important thing he said about individuation where he said. I am not what happened to me. I'm what I choose to become. He saw transformational growth as a process of consciously choosing one's path of development and self actualization.

CJ: 33:01

Alchemy.

PMD: 33:02

Alchemy. Exactly. There's another saying. The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances. If there is any reaction, both are transformed.

CJ: 33:16

Together as a species. There's a part of our own journey, but ultimately, I've heard this several times is that you can only achieve so much by yourself. But when you're in relationship with say, a life partner, then that's the other layer. Often you're going to help the other whatever you're presenting and it's going to come up within the other person is going to help them to heal aspect of themselves and vice versa. So wholeness is a whole team effort here as far as big picture and getting to the depths and then returning from the depths, We're social beings, that's how we're wired and that's how we made the journey over the past 8, 000, 10, 000 or so generations, it was through community and cooperation and we didn't do that within our own species. We did that with much of life on this planet. I guess it'll be helpful to be reminded of this and then have an embodied experience. Basically we're returning back to our origins we've been somewhat removed, if not a lot removed and insulated. Maybe there's been a great forgetting, and maybe some of us, or a lot of us, find ourselves more as human doings rather than human beings and I don't know if this is so much a saying in the UK, Europe, but unfortunately, it is wanted here in the United States, is that for some of us unfortunately life has been reduced to just as far as its meaning, its purpose to this merely that of death and taxes. If that's the case for some people, I don't know about you, but for me that's living hell. That's living hell.

PMD: 35:00

It sets the stage for unmarshalled turbulence because if those who are in positions of power are not willing to tackle some of the issues and I don't want to get into the whole political debate here, but if they don't tackle some of the issues that are felt a ground level that abounds in our societies. Then there will be violence on the streets. There'll be people who can't take it anymore and we're already seeing that with suicides drug use overwhelm and all the rest of it. So there has to be transactional leadership. It's necessary, but it's limited as a form of governance. Sure. Gotta be rooted in the material world, gotta be focused on maintaining order and stability. However, true leadership must transcend the purely transactional and strive for a much higher ideal of one that cultivates virtue, wisdom, and the pursuit of truth.

CJ: 36:06

These need to be elementary subjects the system here in the United States, I would say K through 12, that needs to be part of the curriculum and maybe this goes hand in hand with what you're thinking and share with me, is that to the point that we have a Department of Defense in the United States, we need a Department of Peace. And maybe a part of that department or a separate department to itself, but perhaps a department of inner peace because, if we don't have balanced, I think, like you've been saying, the temporal with the eternal with the divine, the underworld, et cetera, is that yeah, we don't have balance then do we?

PMD: 36:45

Can we have a situation where leaders can help to facilitate the transformation of consciousness elevating all of us, and not a top down structure, but we're all leaders to a higher plane of understanding where we can inspire each other to seek ultimate truth and goodness. Looking at transcendent leadership, it aligns with Plato's conception of the form of the good. But, the highest and most perfect form of existence, which serves as the ultimate source of truth and beauty and virtue. So can we embody this form of the good and can we as leaders act as conduits for divine wisdom and guide each other, guide humanity towards a state of enlightenment and harmony with the cosmic order.

CJ: 37:44

I feel to the point that we can imagine it. It can be reality. It can be truth. The question is, how many of us see it, are aware of that, and have a why that's in line with that, and this is my feeling when it comes to this, is that, yeah, don't wait on the government for that to happen, this is gonna be grassroots from the ground on up, and maybe eventually, if they wise up they'll catch on and adapt to the need and the well being, the sustainability of this. Unfortunately we don't have qualified leaders within this context. The last qualified leader as far as back in history might have been Marcus Aurelius. He was the last Caesar of his time of that nature. And unfortunately his son was pretty much the polar opposite of himself, Commodus. Was it Plato who said something along the lines that people who seek power are the ones that shouldn't really be in power?

PMD: 38:42

Probably. I'm not sure. But possibly. I was thinking, gosh, what would Carl Jung or Plato or some of these luminaries say about leadership today. And I thought if I was to give a psychological interpretation if we look at it at the transactional level of leadership, which is a manifestation of the ego driven psyche, it's focused on material gain, the fulfillment of personal desires, me me. What can I get rather than what can I do? What can I contribute? I would say what we need to do at that level is we need to integrate the shadow aspects of the psyche with the recognition that true leadership, and I'm going back to know thyself because that requires a deeper understanding of one's unconscious motivations and the ability to transcend the limitations of the ego, not to squash the ego, like in some spiritual practices, get rid of the ego. No, the ego has its merits. There's that aspect of it at the transactional level. At the transformational level, it's what Jung talks about individuation, where there's the integration of the conscious and the unconscious aspects of the psyche so that we can achieve a semblance of wholeness and self actualization. The inspiration, the spark plug, the engine of inspiration is to inspire others to embark on their journey of self discovery and personal growth, unveiling, unlocking liberating the potential for collective transformation. Lastly, I would say that on a transcendent level, and I'm thinking of Jung's exploration of archetypes cause I find those incredible because the language of archetypes transcends all language. Everybody can understand the language of an archetype. These universal symbolic patterns that shape our experience. and the collective unconscious. How can we embody these archetypal energies that serve as vessels for the collective wisdom of humanity and guide others towards a deeper understanding of the psyche's connection to the cosmic order? I'm saying quite big things here and I recognize I am, and it can sound very idealistic, but I am looking to encourage myself and others to transcend the limitations of the material world and the ego and to strive for a higher state of consciousness that serves the greater good of humanity and aligns with the universal principles of truth, beauty, and virtue.

CJ: 41:45

Yeah, absolutely. Because if not, what's the alternative, and I imagine if we have children, if we have other family members, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, etc. Is that hopefully that there'll be here much longer after our departure. We want the best for them and what we have today, unfortunately, and if it continues on its current trajectory, it's not going to be good. It's not good already not to say that it's all bad, but we're not well, I would say, and I don't feel we're headed in a great direction and so what can we do or how can we be and be that leader, be that example, be that elder, that mentor that's going to provide something else beyond what many people are being shaped. So many people are shaped by way of their primary caregivers, the culture, and culture is basically a group of people enacting a myth. So what's the present day, culture mythos that's being taught to us The current zeitgeist, you also have teachers by way of government and the leader, the so called leaders and corporations. I think Edward Bernays the founder of propaganda, also known as public relations, about a hundred years or so ago, the nephew of Sigmund Freud I feel that he and the governments and the corporations he worked with at the time, and probably still present day, there was a shift and looking at people and citizens, and in that language and that lens and looking at people as consumers, so having some awareness, what's been the trajectory so far. What's the current one where's the likely destination of being that mentor, that leader, that elder, that silent monk. The embodiment of these archetypes and the archetypes that are coming to my mind when it comes to this, as far as leadership goes, and having a healthy integration of the traumas and the shadow and the ego and having the individuation of the authentic self, healthy balance of the masculine and the feminine, the anima and animus and their highest potentialities, Sophia and we have Hermes and within the anima and the animus and then the archetypes perhaps could be from a male perspective, the warrior. The king, the magician, the lover or woman, it would be the Amazon the queen, the priestess and the lover. If this was to happen in a mass, a large scale I would say then we could perhaps. have a different trajectory and a different outcome. But, what do they say a lot of times that more of the same equals more of the same, what's a good predictor of future behavior, past behavior, if we will not look at an archive of human behavior, just look to a world history book and flip back the pages. A lot of these behaviors have been seen to be somewhat timeless and universal. The biggest differentiators are technology and the scale were operating from these scripts that have been going on for quite some time, unfortunately, and we can either wake up now or wake up in the hereafter. So it's every moment then can be seen as a ceremony, as a rite of passage, so exercise in Latin means to practice and if we want things and we want a number of these matters to improve beyond ourselves and across time, perhaps we might consider exercising, practicing many things, maybe even everything. Everything as a ritual. Everything as a ceremony. Everything as a practice. So the litmus test is this good? Is this beautiful? Is this truth? Can this echo, throughout time and beyond Chronos time, time of was it ki Ros, Kairos. K-K-A-I-R-O-S in English. You're better with the Greeks. And Aeon, I think that has to do with the cosmos, as you mentioned earlier.

PMD: 46:15

In terms of the embodiment of these archetypal patterns this reminds me of a saying that Carl Jung said, which was the privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. That says to me that if I am on the path of transcendent leadership, I exist as a conduit for deeper cosmic truths by fully embodying my authentic self so that I can, and I'm paraphrasing, I think again, Carl, Jung said something about the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being. This is about illumination and elevation of collective consciousness in terms of emphasizing the integration of light and shadow for true wholeness. Jung said there's no coming to consciousness without pain. We have to confront our own depths and shadows before transcendence is possible.

CJ: 47:19

One has to have their roots in hell in order to reach heaven and to illuminate that shadow within to see one's inner gold and some people would say this about the ego, it's like a dragon and what do European dragons often do they hoard treasure. They hoard treasure. The gold and treasure is within and I think you mentioned some use the term consider squashing the ego. I would say it's integrating integrating and taming one's dragon.

PMD: 47:52

We're back to awareness as first principle.

CJ: 47:55

If you go out to kill the ego, that's a part of you.

PMD: 47:59

Yeah, why would you want to do that? The parts that don't serve you, I get.

CJ: 48:04

Yeah. Be aware, integrate and make peace with, because I imagine those parts of ourselves that came about in their beginnings probably had a lot to do with fear and pain. It's probably during a time in our childhood where perhaps we were being abused. So that makes sense. At its time, it might've been helpful to have a bit of this adversarial piece of ourselves. When I work with people at times and it goes something like this, everything's optional it's no longer happening. You're safe and it's not true as far as whatever was said, whatever was imprinted. When my parents were angry and they were beating me, that's because I was bad, right? And I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough, for instance. That's not true. That's not true. A lot of times that might have been adopted and unfortunately still the case for some people when you were a child that was very vulnerable and had no way of protecting themselves. So that's the best that they could do it at the time and that made sense to them at that time.

PMD: 49:10

Was your survival toolkit at that time, and I would say bravo. Well done. Because how do you interpret, you can measure maybe some of those things that happened to you when you were a child, but how do you get any prefrontal cortex is not fully formed.

CJ: 49:29

You're only three years old.

PMD: 49:31

Exactly and that's why even in terms of blame, what were their past inferiorities have now manifested in a superiority act? What was the rootings of their inferiorities?

CJ: 49:45

Yeah. I didn't learn of this until I was an adult, many years later, and after their passing they had a horrific childhood themselves. It didn't seem to me that they were given much nurturing. I think you said earlier mentoring of the soul. It's no wonder, it's hard to give what you don't have yourself, it's like you have the blind leading the blind, and then the cycle just continues, and this is just within, an individual familial context that saves three generations, but then look at, each and every one of us as a whole throughout history. It's a tapestry, and much of it, I would say, has aspects of that. I don't know if you're familiar with the psychologist. He's since passed away a couple years ago. I think maybe during the pandemic, if I recall. He was maybe in his 80s., his name was Lloyd DeMause and he created a organization, I think you can look it up still online, it's called Psychohistory. As far as our conversation, and throughout the pages of the history, especially warfare. He felt that warfare had much of its roots in child abuse. I feel he's really onto something there. I feel they're related as far as what you and I are talking today about. I feel it's somewhat an elephant in the room.

PMD: 51:07

To go a little bit further from a transcendent lens, we're also looking at Hermes and Hestia. We're looking at the masculine, the feminine, where can we put down our sword and pick up the lance instead. We become much more pinpointed and clear about what we're pointing towards rather than brandishing and wielding this sword every which way and clumsily at that because wanting any clarity or well being is not an ability that we're born with. It's a freedom you have to learn. To my mind, if there are old men sending young men to kill other young men in war, that is where they haven't balanced the masculine and feminine energies, the Hermes and the Hestia. Here's the thing brainwashing is easy. Reasoning isn't, and again, this is not an ability that we are necessarily born with. It is a freedom you have to learn.

CJ: 52:14

It reminds me of the quest for the grail. Supposedly each entered the place of the forest in their own time and manner that was individual to them. You were mentioning Hermes and Hestia and having the balance rather than just swinging the sword back and forth blindly from fear, anger, rage. What did Martin Luther King say? He basically, an eye for an eye will basically make the whole world blind.

PMD: 52:41

Yeah. This is something I'm looking at is this whole aspect of community and immunity or protection if you like and maybe this is more on a philosophical level, but it stems from the strong support and connective thread that exists amongst community members. And we can see this all over the internet. There are so many communities forming up. Why is that happening? It gives people a sense of belonging because people feel accepted. They feel valued for who they are. It fosters a sense of security and comfort, which can act as a buffer against emotional distress or existential concerns. You've got emotional support that offers a support network that provides emotional assistance during challenging times and I see that when I go to my ancestral homeland in Greece I've spoken about this to you before and individuals within the family and here I'm talking grandparents and cousins and siblings. When they face difficulties or hardships, knowing that they can turn to their community for support creates a sense of safety and protection and that emotional support helps them navigate life's ups and downs much more effectively and then you have shared values and beliefs Because if you look at communities or common unities, they are typically formed around shared values and beliefs or interests. So people come together based on common goals and principles. It creates a cohesive bond amongst members. There's a shared sense of purpose and understanding, which fosters a collective identity which reinforces the feeling of unity and protection within that community. I see that every time I go to where my father's from in Greece, the island where he's from, I see that collaboration and cooperation. I'm not looking at this through rose tinted spectacles where everybody, is camped around a fire and singing Kumbaya. No, it's not like that. When they come together towards a common goal, a lot of people on the island do this, they pull their resources, their skills, their knowledge. That creates such a deep sense of strength and resilience within the community because they can rely on each other. They've got each other's back, for assistance for problem solving for achieving shared objectives. And what does that do? It enhances the overall wellbeing of the community because it gives that sense of security. that arises from the collective presence, there's support. They're not alone in facing life's challenges.

CJ: 55:43

It's basically a model that has been around for ages definitely in the United States and maybe much of the West as well, but I don't know if you've heard this, supposedly nowadays it's a problem because it's been recognized for so long and they're calling it the loneliness epidemic. That is what you just described and that isn't helping toward our well being. There's something that Carl Sagan, that's coming to my mind right now, from his book Contact, his last book, he said this, he wrote this in the 90s before his passing he says, you're an interesting species an interesting mix, capable of such beautiful dreams and such horrible nightmares. You feel so lost, so cut off, so alone. See in all our searching, the only thing we've found that makes the emptiness bearable is each other.

PMD: 56:31

We're back to interconnectedness. We're into awareness again. We're into community. We're into immunity because when there is that strong support system and connective thread amongst each other which arises from a sense of belongingness and emotional support and shared values and collaboration. And the overall sense of security that the community can provide. It's through these aspects that communities can offer individuals a sense of protection, strength and resilience in navigating the complexities of life. There's been several studies that have found a direct link between social connections and physical health, including the functioning of the immune system.

CJ: 57:21

I want to say Harvard, maybe it was another university, but maybe it was Harvard, did like a 30 year research into this and they said the social networks the cohesion, was the key factor to one's longevity and vitality?

PMD: 57:38

Research has shown that chronic loneliness and social isolation can lead to increased levels of inflammation and a weakened immune response. That was by Hawkeley and Kachiapole, 2010. Individuals who lack a strong social ties and support networks have been found to have higher rates of chronic diseases, such as CV, cardiovascular disease, cancer, which are all linked to compromised immune function. When we look at community engagement and social integration, there are further studies that show that the presence of integrated and engaged communities. Those people tend to have lower levels of inflammatory markers and stronger immune responses. So there are positive effects of community involvement on immune function. And I would proffer that there are many levels of immunity. We're not just talking about immunity physiologically. That's what researchers tend to measure. But what about immunity from one's habits, immunity from one's compulsions? So I think there are different levels of community because another principle is accountability. When you're in community, when you're actively engaged and you operate around shared values and beliefs, then accountability comes into play.

CJ: 59:13

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah we're multitudes. So it's not just a matter of biology and there's so many variables we could look at as far as data but when we interact with another human, there's a huge aspect of co regulating, the co regulation of nervous systems, and so the autonomic nervous system communication is non verbal. So there's so much of the unconscious consciousness that's going on. Each of us has our own biology, our own interbiology but with groups, with others, there's intrabiology. And I would say that intrabiology isn't just limited within, the same species. There's intrabiology throughout your environment. It's the biology of the biosphere, and so this is multidirectional.

PMD: 1:00:01

If we look beyond the physiological markers, I would suggest that having a tight knit community. can act as an emotional shield against those harmful effects of stress, anxiety, and mental health struggles and when you're part of a strong community, It gives you greater resilience to push through tough times and trauma and life's challenges. Why? Because you feel that sense of belonging, that feeling of being included and accepted that sense of belonging is the fundamental strength that comes from being part of an inclusive community.

CJ: 1:00:44

This is really reminding me of basically having a mythic lens and inclusion and wholeness and unity. What came to my mind some time ago is that if you look at it through the lens of the periodic table, and we can see those elements to some degree or another within everything upon the biosphere. That being said, perhaps we could look at it like this, is that we were all in the womb of a star together at one point in time. In all life, in the biosphere, in the planet, It was all in the same womb of a star that died and exploded and at some point gave birth to the elements that made the Earth, the biosphere, life, and us possible. The one within the many and the many within the one, it's that awareness and having that reverence and that restoration and remembering of that fact, because it is a fact. It's not maybe so much commonplace today, and many of us forget and ignore that. So to have a mythic lens serves as a harmonizing force, guiding individuals toward equanimity amidst life's stories, sorrows, and tragedies. It can foster acceptance and deep connection with nature, helping us to navigate the complex tapestry of the human experience. One brief way in saying what is whether it's seen or unseen and that's just a matter of having the awareness and an embodiment of that.

PMD: 1:02:15

When I look at our modern way of living, it feels like some of our traditions and values are slipping away. But in certain places like the smaller Greek islands. I see their ancient practices have acted as a buffer against societal challenges providing a kind of social and cultural immunity. I'm not talking about the touristy islands, like Santorini or Mykonos but the real working islands, where there are strong community ties and traditions are still maintained and you can see this in places also like Ikaria in Greece or Okinawa in Japan and the research shows that in communities like these people tend to live longer and have higher overall wellbeing. And these communities have deep rooted cultural practices. On, my ancestral island, which I visit regularly. I have done for the past 30 years. There are constant social gatherings, intergenerational connections. There's a strong sense of purpose and belonging and all of these factors I see contribute to the resident's wellbeing because what you see is a collective resilience and adaptability. It's a tight knit community that exhibits greater collective resilience when tough times hit like natural disasters and economic upheavals or social changes. There's a sharing of resources and knowledge and support networks. In Greek, there's this concept called Philotimo that's really hard to define precisely and I'm glad it's difficult to define because it's something you have to experience and humanize through application. Let me give you a short story to illustrate this. I was on the island once and there were two Australian ladies waiting for the bus, but there was no timetable back then. The bus has just came whenever and I think it was maybe once or twice a day. But you never knew when exactly. Suddenly this huge storm erupts decimating these open chimney stacks on some of the houses, and I'm driving to the bakery, in Greek, it's called Fournos. I saw these two ladies stranded so I stopped and I asked them where they needed to go and they said the port. So I said okay I will take you. And it was out of my way. It was in the opposite direction from where I was headed. But I've took them to the port and I made sure they got on the boat safely so they could get to Athens and catch their flight home. That was an act of Philotimo. They offered me money but I didn't want anything for it because it's the human thing to do the right thing. Will they pay it forward? I don't know. And that's not really the point of why I did it. I did it from my heart to help them with no hidden agenda. That to me is part of transcendent spiritual leadership. That sense of Philotimo

CJ: 1:05:40

I guess you're maybe seeing yourself in the other perhaps you have compassion Yeah, and you're aware and you're recognizing that they had a need. And want them to suffer in the storm, for instance. I lived in Okinawa for a bit and I don't know if you're familiar with the term is supposedly a one of the key aspects to their longevity. So the word and the idea that they have is a keystone piece is called Ikigai. I guess the translation and meaning has more or less to do with reason for being. A lot of it is also inclusive rooted with the ancestors. I think the dates change every year. It's based off the season of each year, but I think if I remember correctly and not just Okinawa, but Japan as a whole culture as well that they celebrate what's called Obon, the Obon festival. Obon festival is basically their day of the dead. Some people might be more familiar with that and so it's a day where they have an altar and they have a food and they give to their ancestors and at the close of the day, they have this candle lit lantern that they set on the water out in the ocean so yeah the respect of the ancestors.

PMD: 1:06:53

That's the strong connective thread I'm talking about in community. Even with Philotimo, I don't see it as an altruistic act. It's more about a profound expression of the fact that I recognize the interconnectedness and recognition that my personal growth is inextricably linked to the well being of the whole. By embodying service and contribution that involves a deep listening to the needs of others and a willingness to offer our gifts and our resources in a way that uplifts and empowers. There is a certain sense of humility that accompanies that because it's about acknowledging my own limitations, but a commitment to collaborating with others for the good. It's that selfless expression and I think in what you're describing of Obon is there is that ceremonic value that, that allows those shared values and beliefs and togetherness and that power of inclusion so that people can have support, they recognize the shared values. They can nurture resilience, They can embody the principles of the community and the practices in their daily lives. They can cultivate a deeper sense of spiritual leadership that transcends dogma and rigid rules because it becomes a lived experience. It becomes a way of being that radiates authenticity and compassion and a commitment to one's own personal and collective growth. That's how I see it in terms of when I offer those two a ride and some might say that's a bit deep. Yeah, it is. But it's a way of being. It's saying my offer to you is not for some kind of rule set that I conform to do the right thing. There is that. But there's also what comes from my heart. And like you say, there's also the recognition of seeing myself in that situation because I see myself as part of the whole.

CJ: 1:09:03

You have a clear and significant why behind the what and the how that you do. It's like maybe it's a part of your first principles, as far as how you navigate life, how you have relationship with self other and beyond. It's code of conduct.

PMD: 1:09:21

Exactly.

CJ: 1:09:22

I think you brought this up a number of times to say, so how can an individual get to this place, how could leadership and each and every one of us is a leader in our own degree, how do we get there? I would say if we look through the ages and we look at the early models as far as the mentoring, the nurturing of a soul and the cultivating of a human being. It was probably done through a rite of passage in an initiation, and often within that maybe the big aha moment, something like this, learning how to die while still alive, in order to live.

PMD: 1:10:01

It's back to what we spoke about originally, which was the metaphor of the acorn and the forest, because there's a potent reminder and like you've alluded to is to have a powerful and potent why because it reminds me that you possess an inherent greatness. You possess a vast and untapped potential if nurtured and cultivated and it can blossom into something truly magnificent where it is a life lived in harmony with our essence and a contribution to the world that is uniquely yours and mine to offer without condition.

CJ: 1:10:44

We're living in a way that's beyond the transactional temporal material world. It's beyond matter and perhaps it's getting to what truly matters because as far as the material world, there's a lot of stuff and maybe along with that, there's also a lot of junk and in the U S whenever you go to an urban area, you drive the freeway, the highway oftentimes you'll see off to the side, these huge storage complexes. For some of us, we got so much stuff that we don't even have room for it even if we live in a one to 3000 square foot residence in two car garage and in the backyard and storage, we just have stuff coming out our eyeballs.

PMD: 1:11:29

Welcome to the mass hypnosis of consumerism.

CJ: 1:11:33

I don't know if you've ever heard this is that for some people that they'll use the term retail therapy. When they're having a tough spot in their life and I imagine there's a time and place to treat oneself, but if that's the only thing that we're considering when it comes to regulating our nervous system and managing thoughts and emotions it's like building a house out of paper mache, it's not going to really hold up. A aboriginal perspective if someone was having a tough time a lot of times it was beyond the scene. They might've described it like this. The person's went through his soul loss and maybe this goes hand in hand with some of the deep psychology and Carl Jung, for instance, the dark night of the soul and there's no thinking or buying however much stuff one thinks to get through that, you don't have to do anything if you want a different experience, and if you really wanted to get to the root of it, got to go through the depths, got to go through the odyssey For some people I heard that the average timeline for one's Dark Night of the Soul could be anywhere from three to nine years or so. I think Carl Jungs Dark Night of the Soul when he wrote the book Liber Novus, the Red Book? Yeah. I think his Dark Knight of the Soul might have been 12 years. If we look at the classic literature and the Odyssey, Odysseus Dark Night of the Soul was 20 years. So it can take a good season, a good chunk of one's lifetime. If the average lifespan present day is around 80 years, give or take, 20 years is equivalent to one season of one's life. So it's not going to be instantaneous. It's not going to be straightforward. There's going to be a lot of twists and turns and valleys. It's the cosmic rollercoaster.

PMD: 1:13:28

It certainly is that, and that's where I go back to transcendent spiritual leadership because during times of adversity is a true test of one's faith, resilience and commitment to higher principles. It's a calling, it's a subpoena to rise above the challenges and lead with a clarity of purpose that transcends the immediate turmoil. The unmarshalled turbulence to bring coherence out of chaos and you need to cultivate unwavering faith in your beliefs, in your values. Know what they are and the ultimate purpose those things serve because if you want to fly, you need an anchor and faith acts as an anchor, because what does an anchor do provide stability and guidance when things are turbulent, it allows you to maintain a sense of calm and clarity enables you to navigate through the adversities with a steadfast spirit.

CJ: 1:14:33

Yeah you're committed and perhaps we could also use the the illustration of say the North star, you have a reference point and you can navigate and orientate yourself based off of that reference point as far as Oh, I know where North is for sure. What's coming up for me is that we might be going through the archetypes and one of the archetypes within this odyssey, this process is the warrior archetype where you're very clear and committed. If I remember right, some of the ancient warriors of antiquity especially when a lot of times they would travel by way of ship and they would land the shore. One of the strategies that they would have done to them is you're going to disembark the ship and you're going to start marching toward our objective and we're going to burn the ships in the meantime. That's called a death ground strategy. There's no plan B. You're either going to win or you're going to die and I guess within this context winning would be for us to wake up transcend and bring back and share.

PMD: 1:15:38

To characterize what you're talking about is selfless service. Yeah, because this type of transcendent leadership is rooted in the principle of selfless service, because they are driven by a higher calling that transcends personal ambitions or gains, they embody the spirit of sacrifice. They dedicate themselves to the well being of others and the greater good, even in the face of immense challenges or danger. There's something selfless about that, in that warrior archetype that you're talking about.

CJ: 1:16:16

Yeah, that would be the light aspect rather than the shadow aspect of the warrior. We can see this in some pages of history, you can see this in some reports of the news, like when a tragedy happens, you have some people who are running towards the flames. You have some people, who are, running towards the gunfire. And that's an example of an archetype. It's a different context. So those would be like some turmoil going on some natural or manmade events, each and every one of us probably have something to some degree within ourselves, and then within the body of humanity within the body of the whole.

PMD: 1:16:57

And adversity and chaotic situations often present very complex challenges with no clear solutions. It's like you're smack dab in the middle of chaos at times. And I think by viewing it through a transcendent lens even admits that chaos, you can find a way forward. I'm not sure if you're aware of the show, Chicago fire but in Chicago fire you have the chief and he's on scene and he stands there right in the center between his teams and while everyones else is running away from the fire the chief stands firm almost like a transcendent leader. And he possesses a deep well of wisdom and discernment. He's able to put discernment to work, guiding his team to navigate the intricate complexities of that chaotic situation because the chief can see beyond the immediate circumstances and contextualize the bigger picture and having that ability to rise above the chaos, maintain a broader awareness and draw from a deep reservoir of wisdom for me, is the hallmark of transcendent leadership. Because when everything seems frantic and there's no obvious path the transcendent leader can go beyond. They can apply discernment. They can cut through the noise and have the crew work through adversity in an aligned and it's an incredibly valuable skill amid high stress, complex situations without simple answers.

CJ: 1:18:52

Usually that person has had a lot of firefighting experience and there's a lot of patterns in predictability within fire science,. We're patterned beings.

PMD: 1:19:02

It's recognizing those patterns. In the analogy of the chief, you can see that the people under his care are in a very adverse situation as he is, but they're actually in the house trying to get people out or whatever it may be, and that can be emotionally and physically draining because it tests the limits of your endurance, which I know they trained for. But as a leader, as a transcendent leader you have to exhibit remarkable resilience and perseverance that draws strength, not only from your training, but from your belief and the support of your team so they can have the spiritual fortitude to endure those hardships and continue their path and inspire others to do the same.

CJ: 1:19:55

Because if not, it would all fall apart.

PMD: 1:19:57

Exactly. And at times, the cracks do appear, but even in the darkest of times, when you look at these leaders, they possess a transformative vision. They have the ability to see beyond the struggles and to envision a future where adversity is overcome and growth and renewal are possible. You can see it. The historical markers are there where a leader's vision has been a guiding light and it's had a complete permeation. Inspiring hope and motivating others to work towards a better tomorrow. Within what I also see is a humility and authenticity because there's a grounding in their beliefs and their values and their principles yet they remain open to learning and aligning to that learning and to growth. So there's acknowledgement of limitations on one hand, and they're willing to seek guidance and support from others on the other which fosters a sense of common unity or community and shared purpose. That's a testament to the power of faith, compassion, and an unwavering commitment to higher ideals because when we look at how does the human spirit flare? The manifestation of that is to rise above challenges and inspire others to do the same. If we truly embody and embrace these qualities and enact and extend them, then transcendent spiritual leaders become beacons of hope they guide their communities like the chief does through the darkest of times into a brighter future, not to say that they don't have their fears and their doubts and their vulnerabilities and their aspirations and their hopes, because we're not infallible.

CJ: 1:21:52

No. And when you're faced with adversity and chaos, you're hoping for the best and you can only see as far as in front of you at times on one foot in front of the other.

PMD: 1:22:03

There's something very profound about all of this that I find, and I don't know whoever's listening to this, if they find the same thing, but I think there's a mytho poetic cosmological sense to this that is multifaceted, that draws upon the fundamental principles of what is this universe and the interconnectedness of all things. If we start to take the blinkers off and not have blind paradigms, but have a leadership paradigm that transcends the boundaries of conventional thought, and that taps into the deeper layers of existence where the mythic and the cosmic converge.

CJ: 1:22:47

I feel it's essential for for the betterment and the resilience the sustainability of all because if it's not that, we're probably going to have something more to do with the left brain integration. I might have said this with you at some point, is when we look at education and we look at technology, especially, in the considering STEM, science, technology, engineering, and math, I've also heard that STEM can also include the arts, so STEM or STEAM, but if we just keep it to, say, the science, the technology, the engineering, and math, and not much more than that we need the balance, right brain, the world, the divine those are the core of our humanity. In some ways, or maybe a lot of ways, humanity needs the humanities in order to save humanity from itself.

PMD: 1:23:45

In everything we've talked about, when we explore, and this is really an exploration in these conversations we're having. If we can not only explore, but embody these principles as transcendent spiritual leaders, we have the potential to catalyze profound shifts in individual and collective consciousness. Thereby with the aspiration to usher in a new era of harmony, balance and cosmic resonance. I think there's a distinction between the exploration of this material and the exploitation of it.

CJ: 1:24:25

Oh yeah. Yeah.

PMD: 1:24:26

What I see that we're attempting to do, because this is an attempt, that's what we can do is attempt to explore some of these things and how they manifest themselves in this 21st century.

CJ: 1:24:40

I feel would be helpful for others to start explore this is to as best as they can slow down and focus on the essentials. Try to simplify your life. Try not to be so spread thin and busy all the time. Maybe what's at the core of some of these symptoms of our uneasiness of our unwellness of our non beingness is perhaps to be categorized and described into these few things and what's coming up for me is I feel that there's a great deal of disharmony with rhythms with self, rhythms with others and rhythms with nature, so if we can get more in tune with self, other and nature not so much chronos time and, move within the rhythm of the day, the seasons, the cosmos, and sit back and observe, feel and listen the schedule of the rhythm of our day. It could be something as simple in one sense for some people, but in another sense, for some other people, it might be difficult, but take more time in preparing In chewing in, in being with your food and ideally in company, in sharing food, a meal with another and really savor it and have some reverence that basically what you're eating was once alive and his life was basically given in service to your life because that's the reality of it is life eats life life gives life. So what you ate for breakfast, for instance, is contributing to the manufacturing of you two million red blood cells at any given moment. 30 trillion cells of your body, for instance, and there's no escaping that reality just a few of those things might help us to return back to center. Be here now, because I feel a lot of anxiety has something to do with us projecting a possible future outcome for a lot of people's depression, often it has a lot to do with the past. And I use this term and it's a play on words, perhaps. It is it's not healthy to over pasteurize. Like in food processing, it's to superheat something 200 plus some odd, degrees Fahrenheit where it kills the majority of enzyme activity. I don't know if you want to use that same idea and apply it to your life and your present and possible future by overpasteurization. You're pasteurizing your life and perhaps killing aspects of it. I don't feel that's good. Maybe some of these if not a good number of these could be helpful and returning back to ourselves, returning back to nature, remembering how to be in this and it's so simple it's difficult because the modern world, unfortunately, has had many of us forget, it's so simple and be these doings and consumers and citizens of nations rather than the world and the biosphere and with all of life and not just humanity and also within the cosmos. You see what I'm saying?

PMD: 1:28:05

Yeah. I characterize what you're saying is you got to put discernment to work and if we succumb to the leadership theories of post world war two, which is where they all come from, our current leadership theories, is that we will struggle with the current model, because the question is how are we organizing ourselves personally or individually? How are we organizing ourselves collectively? How we organizing ourselves globally?

CJ: 1:28:34

It's fear based leadership.

PMD: 1:28:36

Exactly. It's looking at what is the germ of the inner work that we need to do? Because we're all infiltrated by toxins, as you were talking about, and not just food toxins, but many other types of toxins. So what is, and who is infiltrated by these toxins? As an example, when you were talking about your childhood, you're not necessarily infiltrated by the toxicity of your childhood. But you may be intoxicated as many are by the interpretation of their childhood, because the that's the story they're telling themselves over and over and over again.

CJ: 1:29:23

In recognizing that, that's a fortunate aspect of our shared humanity, but there's that potential of, alchemy and awareness and transformation that turn that fear, that anger, that hate inside out into, love and compassion. Because if not, we're not breaking the cycle then.

PMD: 1:29:42

How do you choose to live? How do you choose to live? Because until you have pattern recognition, to your point, how will you know what's happening? How will you know how that story is unraveling? How will you have the awareness to read what is happening? What meaning can you assign to it. Back to Jung, I think when we understand individuation and when we understand how the archetypes, embodying the archetypes, makes more sense, then we can contextualize life in a very different way. Not the dogma, not the indoctrination, not the limitations, not the stereotypes which are negative and stupid. It's getting away from a time of labels. It's the life of our inner psyche on this inner stage that wants to step forward. We're back to the acorn to liberate our genius. I don't think you have to be a Mozart to play a melody.

CJ: 1:30:48

It's the art of this cosmic dance of living and dying. Dying while still alive, dying to the old self

PMD: 1:30:57

And that's the thing with energy. Everything is energy and it's neither good or bad until it's directed and we're given that gift of choice. So exercise your choices carefully.

CJ: 1:31:10

The mind can be a dangerous place without adult supervision.

PMD: 1:31:14

This has been a really great dialogue, Corey and as we bring this conversation to a close I've thoroughly enjoyed this exchange of dialogue and ideas and perspectives. It's been engrossing and enriching to play in this game we call life together. So thank you for being my scene partner and dialoguing with me on the stage of life's rich drama. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to explore these fascinating concepts and riff off each other's points. It's been a wonderfully stimulating improvisation and I do look forward to many more acts and scenes where we can continue to dialectically dance across lifes grand stages together. So thank you for this engaging dialogue. It's been an absolute pleasure.

CJ: 1:32:06

Yeah, this is great. I think we covered a pretty significant swathe of this tapestry I appreciate you and grateful for our time and our deep sharing. I feel it is a ceremony and medicine. I see it.