The After Sermon /// Why do we still try to earn what Jesus already gave?

Welcome to The After Sermon by Plum Creek Church.

This bite-sized discussion is where we get to sit down with our communicators and ask a few follow up questions connected to the weekend message, unpack it on a deeper level, and explore how it all relates to our journey of following Jesus more fully.

In this episode of The After Sermon, Eric sits down with Keith Norman to unpack a powerful and unique message from John 8. Keith reflects on why he chose to embody the story of the woman caught in adultery and what it revealed about both her experience and the posture of the Pharisees. The conversation explores the tension between religious performance and the unearned nature of grace, highlighting how easy it is to see ourselves as “better” than others while missing our own need for Jesus.

Together, they discuss how Jesus doesn’t just forgive—he re-centers the overlooked, extending love that isn’t earned but freely given. Keith shares personal stories of wrestling with pride and self-righteousness, offering a candid look at how even well-intentioned faith can drift into performance. The episode closes with a practical and deeply personal invitation: to stop striving and instead learn to receive grace, allowing everything we do to flow from what Jesus has already done.

This conversation is also available on our YouTube channel along with the full message that this discussion is based on.

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@plumcreekchurch

You can learn more about Plum Creek Church by visiting our website as well.

Website: https://plumcreek.church/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to the after sermon. I'm Eric and um you already know this, but as a reminder, we get a chance to meet with the communicator and talk about maybe some of the stuff that got left on the floor, things that weren't talked about. And um, we have a very special guest, Keith Norman. I get to call you friend now because I took you to Shake Shack. You go to Shake Shack with somebody and they are now your friend. I like it. I like it. Okay, here's my question for you. Um as a preacher, uh what you did this morning is unusual, right? It was unusual because you embodied truly, like if you haven't seen the message or or I'd watch it. Uh go to one of our our uh go to YouTube and and watch the message, but you embodied the character. Why did you do that?

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Uh that's a good question. I I I think I don't wanna, I'm this isn't gonna sound spiritual. I just when I study scripture, I never want it to bore me. Um and we live in a culture still in 2026 to where I think if we're not careful, we don't value women. So to walk in her shoes as a man um was humbling for me. And so I I wanted to feel what she felt. But honestly, I uh probably more than that, I wanted to feel what it was like to be the scribes and Pharisees um who were trying to frame her or use her as a pong to capture Jesus the King.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

What was uh when you say you wanted to to feel what she felt, say more about what did you feel? What did she feel?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah, um used, and I don't know all of her story, but from what I can gather from the text, being used, probably even feeling used, wasn't her first time. Um, same with the woman at the well. I know it's a different passage, but in that culture, one of the things that made Jesus special, his ministry said, Hey, there's a different way for women. If you study scripture, biblical antiquity, they were not valued. No, and so she was uh, who knows how often she had felt used. I don't think that was the first time. Again, she was just a pawn in the game. Um, and so to know, and one of the things too I liked is she did nothing to deserve what she got from Jesus. So even in my preaching, I'm always hoping that Jesus ultimately is the star. Um I think that that lady and the scribes and Pharisees, I even think I mention it, their sins were akin. Um and so yeah, I just feel like she probably felt, she probably felt like she was gonna die even.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah, for sure. I mean, in that culture to sit in that space. Um she was literally called. Yeah, yeah, that was that was bad news. She was. I love that you say um you you want to make sure that Jesus is the star, but I do think there's something in what Jesus does, because she was a pawn that he makes I'm not gonna overstate it, but he makes her central um not just by how he responds, but that I love you point this out. It was just her and him at the end. They were the last two. What does that say about who Jesus really is? Right, he's love.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

He doesn't, he doesn't have to. I don't want to disrespect you, Jesus. He doesn't have to work hard at being loved. He he um he is love, and we we get to see that he's love that's not earned. We uh we live in a culture where you have to earn love. Yeah, right. Um and with him, uh, she's the perfect person for all of us because we're probably most of the people that watch this are gonna be church oriented. And uh if you're watching, you can't earn his love. You can't. Um, and we're fortunate there. We don't this lady didn't perform at all. Uh she didn't ask him to save her. She was ready for what whatever happened, and he he showed us grace. Um, and so love, grace, mercy, those things are so inextricably intertwined because they're Jesus. You know, they they're they're a person.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

It's interesting. Um, you and I were talking about this because here's Jesus, John chapter 8. This is how this whole interaction starts, right? It starts with this woman. Um, and you you you keep uh you you walk through through John, and I love the point that you made at the end of the message about seeing yourself not inviting people in because you because you see they're messed up, but that you're you see your messed up. It's sad to me because here's a here's a group of people that watch Jesus perform absolute unbelievable acts of love. Starts in eight, goes to John 9, heals a man out in the alley who's blind. And there are just some times when we're blind. Um, and some of the people who are most blind are the ones who are around the truth most often. What what it what is that? What is that dichotomy? What is that thing going on?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

I think when you just study the gospel of John, period, it's all about dialogues, discourses, and deity. Jesus uses dialogue and discourses in in every conceivable way to keep kind of yelling and screaming, I'm deity, I'm I'm God. Now, the problem with the scribes and Pharisees, they were not willing to accept that. So uh the danger is religion felt good to them. It's probably the case with a lot of us church people. Something feels good about when I can do. Yeah, even Keith Norman. So uh I scratched my original ending. Uh, a young lady in college, I was a new Christian, and I love the Bible. Knew some scripture out of context. Uh, and I was sitting in the cafeteria with two female friends, and I was addressing their sin with them. And I was talking, I'm 19 years old, talking to them about their sin. And one of them looked at me and she said, Pride comes before the fall. And it wasn't just that she was quoting a verse, it's like she was wishing the verse on me. She wasn't the problem I was. I was very self-righteous. Um, I was a new Christian on fire for God. Again, I knew some verses that I quoted, no context whatsoever. Yeah, that's very pharisaical. I wasn't trying to beat them up, I was trying to teach them to perform. I didn't know that. Now at 56, I still remember that story. The only reason I bring that up is it's easy for us church folk to fall into that. It feels good to know that I memorize these verses. I prayed for an hour. I even cried during prayer time. None of those things makes God love us. And so, and it also feels good when your spiritual gymnastics gets you speaking engagements, gets you the best seats in the house, you know, in the temple or whatever. And uh I always tell the church that I pastor, our goal is not to go higher, but to go lower.

unknown 7:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

And so Jesus literally did that with this lady. I didn't say this today, and I didn't want to over-engage in homiletics, but him even stooping down, you can kind of stay there and make that a preaching point.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, for sure. It's something about that. Yeah, for sure. Uh well, I think the point that you're getting to in terms of, you know, how do we see ourselves in the scribes and the Pharisees? How do we make sure that um we don't take our sin off the table because someone else we can and this is what we do, right? This is what humans do. We go, well, that uncle that we have that drinks all the time. At least I'm not him. Yeah. But I heard this phrase uh and it it I I think about it often. If if you were to this this is written, I don't remember who wrote it, uh, but if if holiness was a jumping contest, vert avert, you know, it's like um Mother Teresa or find the holiest person you can find, someone that you really respect. I mean, they might have a 46-inch vertical, right? And then somebody who's like this woman, they don't they one inch, right? And so when we see it, there's a big difference. But if you're standing on the moon looking at both those verticals, they look exactly the same. Oh, and that's like that's God, right? Where he looks down and it's like there is very little difference. Almost it's undetectable between righteousness is like filter eggs, period. Yeah, period. So what do we, you know, as we wrap up our time, what's something that we can do? Those of you know, we know we have a lot of folks that I mean they do love Jesus, but we can easily find ourselves in the role of describing the Pharisees. What's um what's the antidote to that?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

I I want to be honest in everything I do. I struggle with the antidote. I know it um um theoretically, I don't always practice it existentially, but the antidote is what I used to do. I got a guy to build me a prayer altar years ago, and I was expecting some little thing he would bring in house. It was the Cadillac of prayer altars. It was huge. And so there were many mornings I would go there to pray, and instead of kneeling at it, I would lay my body on the ground and put my head on the part where your knees should go, and I would put my hands like this, and I would simply say, I receive your grace today. Wow. And I think for people that will be watching this, I don't know your demographic or your audience, but I know church people, we gotta learn to realize we can do nothing. He the he did it all, and I feel like shouting now. I know we're doing a podcast, but like he really did it all. Hezekiah Walker, uh, y'all need to check him out. Bro, he's yeah, he has a song from like 1997. That those words called Christ Did It All. I know that song. And and it repeats the same refrain. Christ literally did it all. And so, like, he told that woman to go sin no more. Uh again, she wasn't, she wasn't, he didn't, her lifestyle was a response to his grace. So, yeah, you should do some things, but as a response, it wasn't the reason for his grace. And so that's what we have to get. I don't care how many services I preach today, even if people come up to me and hug me and said, Hey, you blessed me, that's not the reason for his grace. Uh, I preach as a response to it. And that's what we have to get. Church people, preachers, it's hard for us to get that. We know how to perform. We don't, we don't know that we're doing it, but to just rest in him, uh, um so when you ask me the question, I'm still trying to practice it. I know it, I read it in the scriptures, but grace, I tell my wife all the time, grace is a bigger deal than we've made.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

It yeah, yeah, it really is. I I think there's something so beautiful in that. How many times do we see throughout scripture, Luke chapter seven, uh, same story? Um, she loved much because she was forgiven much. There is this pattern of a response, but humans, we are forgetful. And so we get saved and we forget that we were ever in need of being saved. I think that's a beautiful reminder. Like the constant uh uh bringing ourselves back to um if not for grace, right? If it weren't for grace, I would be in the same shoes as I'll tell you where I be. Lauren L.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Harris going down some pointless road to nowhere with my salvation up to me.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

So good. Well, on that, um, that's a good closing point. Uh plus you gotta preach, so I probably ought to get you out of here. Hey, I'm so glad that you joined us. Um, you can hear all this message. I want to tell you go watch or listen to this. Um, it's an incredible message. Uh, any podcasting platform of your choosing, we're there. Go to our YouTube page. But um I'm so grateful. Thank you, my friend. Thank you for preaching. Thank you.