057 - "Do you want to play Dungeons and Dragons?"

Have you ever wondered what the heck is Dungeons and Dragons?  Or have you ever thought "why is Dungeons and Dragons so popular?"  Or "why was everyone in the 1980's hating Dungeons and Dragons?"

We've spent some time in today's episode discussing the history of D & D, what is the Satanic Panic surrounding the game and hopefully we've answered some of those questions for you.  Our Dungeon Master Sean talks to us about how to play D & D as well as why the game Dungeons and Dragons has made such a cultural impact on society.  This "game" has been played everywhere from basements to classrooms; Death Row inmates have played to keep their sanity as well as soldiers dealing with PTSD.

Your imagination and creativity are your greatest allies in the world of D & D, and I hope this episode can open some people's minds to the fact that "Everyone is a nerd about something" so don't hate something without giving it a try!

Check out Critical Role, Dimension 20, among the countless others promoting the game and if cartoons are your thing, check out "The Mighty Nein" and "The Legend of Vox Machina" on Amazon Prime.

The background music audio is from the 2023 movie "Dungeons and Dragons: Honor Among Thieves" and the outro music is "D&D" by The Library Bards

Transcript

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SPEAKER_05 0:00

I made an intro that I think uh turned out pretty interesting. Okay. It it kind of plays along with like a a social loafer episode, like an intro. But then I added uh sort of like a Dungeons and Dragons uh a DM intro, if that makes any sense. Yeah. All right. Good morning, loafers, and welcome to another epic episode of the Social Loafer Podcast. Come along and join me for an adventure today where we'll be exploring some history, mythology, and wisdoms surrounding the world of Dungeons and Dragons. The world of DD is so vast, detailed, and fascinating that I'll be talking with a few dungeon masters today. And now, without further ado, welcome to the world of DD. It's the fall of 1985. It's been a long week of work, delivering bread to the local retailers, like Rainbow Foods, Lunds and Byerley's, and the new store in town, Cub Foods. You stop into the local tavern called Sandy's. It's a small place, but it always has a lot of interesting characters from all walks of life. You enter. The lights are dim. The aroma of grain belt beer fills the air. Kiss's newest song, Tears Are Falling, is playing on the jukebox. You look around at the patrons, and you see a younger man sitting in the corner. He's in his early twenties, wearing a blue denim jean jacket, and it looks like he could use a haircut. He's talking to three other men sitting at the booth with him. Your first thought is, I wonder what they're doing. You ask for a beer, and the bartender starts you a tab. You grab your bottle off the bar, and you turn around to watch the young men at the table. The one wearing the jacket is talking, and another one of the guys appears to be rolling dice. Everyone cheers. You walk over casually to the corner booth, and you see that there are papers sitting in front of everyone, and a big tri-folded board in front of the jean-jacketed man. He turns his head and he looks up at you as you're standing over them and he says, Do you want to play DD? So I did that. I like it. I figured uh, since Dungeons and Dragons is theater of the mind, I I threw some audio clips together and try to make you feel like you were really there. Oh yeah. And of course, that was my daughter saying, uh, Do you want to play DD? So I've got uh one other thing. So because we're gonna be talking about Dungeons and Dragons today, with my co-host today, Sean, I have found this introduction of sorts to what Dungeons and Dragons is through the words of none other than Brendan Lee Mulligan.

SPEAKER_30 2:53

What the fuck is Dungeons and Dragons in 30 seconds? Your time starts now.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Dungeons and Dragons is a tabletop role-playing game, which is a game where you and your friends play characters going on an adventure together. Uh, the primary thing you're doing is telling a story collaboratively, but there's a game component added into it where in moments of dramatic peak, uh you roll dice to find out what's going to happen. So the story can surprise you in that way. And the story is run by a person called the dungeon master who runs all the enemies and allies and environments.

SPEAKER_22 3:23

Okay. Wow. Holy shit. Two seconds left to spare. That was so many seconds of like literally the most helpful. Did you practice that? That was so helpful. Thank you for the time. Well, it's your thing you're doing with that.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Thank you so much for the kind words. I am very proud of having not only played this game a lot, but actually taught a lot of people how to play board games.

SPEAKER_30 3:41

Oh my god. I want to play Dungeons and Dragons with you.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

The way to understand it is unlike a board game, even though you can play it with miniatures and you can play it with little figurines, uh, you know, you need like your character sheet, you need some dice. Fundamentally, the game's happening in all of our minds because we're telling a story. Okay. When you play, you're only responsible for your one character.

SPEAKER_31 4:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

So there's typically three things you're doing. You're saying what your character tries to do. Right. You are from time to time speaking as your character. Um get to do a voice. And you get to do a voice if you would like to do a voice. Fuck. Yeah. Uh and then the third thing is you're also just like having fun with your pals. You know, like it is just getting to hang out with your friends. So you guys can see it's really, it's, it's, uh, it's improv. It's just improv. It's storytelling. It's really fun. And the the whole the thing that keeps me coming back to this because I've been playing this sort of non-stop since I was 10 years old, is just that it's the idea of you are gambling with a story you're telling. It's so cool. You you have a you have these characters that you love, you have a story that you become attached to, you want the best for your characters, like your little guy. You want the best for them. And as the story moves forward, these moments where in a normal sort of like collaborative storytelling exercise, you would have to just make an arbitrary call. Like, I don't know, I guess he wins this fight, whatever. You get to actually experience the same degree of risk and thrill and uncertainty that your character is experiencing.

SPEAKER_24 5:11

That's so good. But I love that moment. You have a real talent for that movie. That was amazing. Like that was immaculate. Oh my gosh. Real. Like, like that's like I would never be able to do that.

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SPEAKER_22 5:23

That was crazy. No, I was like, I was like, oh my gosh, we should just do this for an hour. And then I'm like, yeah, that's what DD is. Okay. That's what fucking DD is.

SPEAKER_05 5:31

All right. So that's pretty much it. That's pretty much it. So what I found that as uh a podcast called Sid and Olivia, and so the two of them actually got to play with Brennan Lee Mulligan, and I I guess it was their first time ever playing Dungeons and Dragons. So I I clipped it kind of just to use the audio of Brennan, because he did such a good job explaining what Dungeons and Dragons is. But I mean, they ended up spending like 10 minutes or whatever just playing the game and creating characters, and and they had a lot of fun with it. So I had to trim that out. And I thought it was a nice little um flavor of uh the dice roll, you know. So that's what I that's what I did. That was my uh superstar editing. I dig it. So the one comment that I saw on on YouTube I thought was really funny was them saying to Brennan that he's really good at being a dungeon master, is like telling Santa he's really good at delivering presents.

SPEAKER_27 6:27

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:28

Because he's he's basically what the man between him and what's his name?

SPEAKER_07 6:32

Uh Matt Mercer. Matt Mercer, that's right. They're both I I put them on like equal tier with Brennan being slightly higher in like abilities. Because they've done like Brennan has worked in Matt Mercer's world that he created, and Matt Mercer has worked in the world that Brennan has created, and I feel that Brennan did a better job with Matt Mercer's creation.

SPEAKER_05 6:54

So there was another podcast that I listened to. It was Adam Conover, and he has this podcast. I already fucking it up. I can't even remember the name of the podcast, but they spend like an hour just talking about Dungeons and Dragons and Brennan's history, and he did a lot of improv classes, he's done various comedy courses throughout his his time learning to become this dungeon master. So it's almost like you have to build up your toolbox and and your wit and your wisdom and knowledge and all of that to be able to become a dungeon master.

SPEAKER_07 7:31

Some people are great at it, some people aren't.

SPEAKER_06 7:34

I got something for you.

SPEAKER_11 7:35

It's 10 p.m. Do you know where your children are?

SPEAKER_05 7:40

That just made me think of one of those uh back in the 80s with the satanic panic. Talking about all the people that are afraid for their children's lives because oh no, they're in the basement in a dark room. It's 10 p.m. Do you know where your children are?

SPEAKER_07 7:56

You're talking about magic and different gods.

SPEAKER_05 7:59

Oh my god, I can't handle this. They're turning them into demons. Exactly. I've got a handful of things to play as far as audio goes. And I'm gonna play this one first, and then we'll go into DD itself.

SPEAKER_32 8:16

This game has angered a lot of people, but others support it adamantly. One critic of the game also feels that Dungeons and Dragons promotes Satanism.

SPEAKER_35 8:24

There's a book called None Dare Call It Witchcraft, who said it's the most cleverly packaged presentation to the occult ever made.

SPEAKER_32 8:31

As for the players themselves, some say it's a fun game. That's all it is. A game. Are you gonna become a Satan worshiper by playing this game?

SPEAKER_17 8:39

No, no more than I am from listening to rock and roll.

SPEAKER_32 8:43

One Calgary elementary school teacher was using Dungeons and Dragons to help teach a class until the school principal ordered the game stopped. Public school trustee Ann Blau wants to see the game out of the classroom and out of the lunchroom.

SPEAKER_35 8:56

It's not something I want in our school system, and I do not want it in my home.

SPEAKER_32 9:01

Novelty shop owner John Barron defends Dungeons and Dragons.

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SPEAKER_33 9:05

They're not hurting anybody. They're not becoming members of cults, they are not denouncing their religion, they are just being normal kids playing a fun game.

SPEAKER_05 9:16

Exactly. It's just a fun game. What is Dungeons and Dragons to you, and what does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_07 9:24

Uh, me, Dungeons and Dragons is like they said, it's a game. But to me, it's so much more. It can be therapy, it's a great way to spend time with your friends and telling a collaborative story, whereas a lot of people would be doing other less constructive things. And like I I use go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 9:44

Oh, I was gonna say, if you could explain a little bit of how you got into Dungeons and Dragons, maybe a little backstory.

SPEAKER_07 9:52

It's not much of a backstory. I got into it as a way to spend time with my brother.

SPEAKER_05 9:56

Okay. Recently, or is this you know, this is decades?

SPEAKER_07 10:00

This is like twenty five years ago.

SPEAKER_05 10:04

So this has basically been a part of your life for most of my life. Most of your life. Which seems to be the case. I mean, most people that get into Dungeons and Dragons are doing it in their what, preteens? What what exactly is the age range for something like Dungeons and Dragons?

SPEAKER_07 10:21

I've I've had friends that started playing when they were 10, 11. Uh, one of the people I played DD at her house, they're they're running a campaign for her their 10-year-old daughter and some of her friends. You can do happy go lucky, you could do high fantasy, you can you could do anything. As long as the person telling the story stays with a decent story. Uh like I'm playing in a game right now called the Curse of Strahd, where you you and your party are shunted to this alternate dimension, and your whole goal is to kill this evil vampire lord. It's like a super dark and like macabre setting, but I've also played as a Disney princess.

SPEAKER_05 11:04

Oh my gosh. So that was fun. That makes me think of uh Brian, because Brian has this interesting idea involving like the A team. Yeah, he was w he was worried like fantasy games and Dungeons and Dragons, like it's just fantasy, like it's just Tolkien kind of storylines, and and it's the goblins and gremlins and and stuff like that. But realistically, any story you want can become a DD campaign, right?

SPEAKER_07 11:31

Oh yeah. Like uh Brendan Lee Mulligan, uh he runs a thing called Dimension 20. He creates several worlds to play these games in. They have one called the Unsleeping City, where you're literally playing in the New York City, like modern-day New York City. Um they've got one called Fantasy High. It does it's not what you think it is. Uh they play uh it's it's a like a 60s high school setting. Like one of the guys, his dad is a this great pirate captain, but he's like a jock.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

Interesting.

SPEAKER_07 12:08

There's one, he he plays a rogue, like you know, a little sneaky dude. His mom's a detective, and they all meet in this high school and they come together and like save the school. They've got another one called A Court of Fay and Flowers, where they're all fairies.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Alright, so maybe we should talk about this a little bit. The one thing you had mentioned as far as things to talk about, topics, would be different character classes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so obviously fairies would probably maybe I don't know about probably, but it would push some people away because oh, that's sissy stuff. Tell me more about like some of the other classes and and what kind of things that these can do, and perhaps even how do you choose who you want to be in your in your storytelling?

SPEAKER_07 12:57

Well, fairy is actually it's considered a race or a species. So there's like little pixies.

SPEAKER_04 13:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 13:05

Uh, but the fight- the the standard classes are you have your martial classes, so like your frontline combatants, you have a barbarian. He utilizes his inner rage to just hack and slash and destroy everything in front of him. He also gets when he's in this rage state, uh, he gets uh a lot of damage resistances. So if you hit him with like a sword, he's only gonna take half the damage as you roll. But they're generally kind of weak against most magic.

SPEAKER_05 13:36

It's kind of like rock, paper, scissors, right? You're gonna be strong in one way and and you're gonna crush something in another way. It actually kind of reminds me of like Pokemon weaknesses and strengths.

SPEAKER_07 13:46

And you have the different uh classes. They're all good inherently, but some are better than others, and some have different utility. Like you have a fighter who is like your standard like sword and shield, just you know, hack and slash kind of guy. But they have these things called subclasses, which give you different abilities. So like you have a there's a certain fighter subclass called the rune knight, and you wear these runes and you invoke the runes, and you can force uh other players to re-roll an attack, or you can grow to double your size.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

So magic is like at the forefront of pretty much every campaign that you're gonna be a part of.

SPEAKER_07 14:30

Yes and no. Okay. Uh magic is inherently in it, but you don't have to play someone who uses magic. I prefer to now I used to just be I used to just play like Barbarians. But I've gotten into playing the uh the casters here pretty recently.

SPEAKER_05 14:47

Because I always thought like if you're gonna play Dungeons and Dragons, like you have to know so much history and understanding like arcane magic and and all the various uh things that go along with this fantasy. And so I never got into it because I thought it was too much to learn.

SPEAKER_07 15:07

That all depends on who the GM or the DM, whoever's running their game. Uh, they can use standard settings that exit have already existed. Like I've played a Lord in the Rings game. I've played games that were completely homebrewed, which is the DM came up with everything, like the world, the lore, everything. And then you also have pre-made modules like that uh Wizards of the Coast or different other companies will put out, like uh the Curse of Stra game I was talking about. That's a module that's meant for a DM to bring characters from generally level one all the way up to like level 12 or 13 to finish their goals.

SPEAKER_05 15:47

So when you're looking at some of these pre-made games, is there an idea of how long the story's gonna take you? I know you've said it before that some of these campaigns can take years to complete.

SPEAKER_07 15:59

Oh yeah. It depends. Like it depends on how often groups are able to get to play. There's uh a saying kind of an anecdote that the biggest enemy of any DD party is scheduling.

SPEAKER_05 16:12

Sounds about right. I guess that's the same for podcasting too.

SPEAKER_07 16:15

Oh yeah, totally. Uh in like D, uh like the Curse of Straw game, we play every other Wednesday. Uh sometimes we take breaks because you know life happens. But we've been playing that game for in July, it'll be two years.

SPEAKER_05 16:31

So when you're playing a game for that long, how do you remember what all has happened?

SPEAKER_07 16:37

Uh generally uh one person one or more people will take notes.

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 16:42

And then uh the DM also has their notes, and generally at the beginning of every session they'll recap what happened in the last one.

SPEAKER_04 16:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 16:50

Like like me, I'm a really bad note taker because I get really super immersed in the story.

SPEAKER_05 16:55

Makes sense, because it seems like every time you look down at your sheet to write down what just happened, you'd probably kind of lose track of what's going on in the moment.

SPEAKER_07 17:04

Yeah. But there's one campaign I'm playing in, because I play in one, two, three, four campaigns right now. Um there's one I play in that I take really good notes, and it's funny because it's uh it's a Magic the Gathering setting called Strixhaven. It's basically kind of hogwarts.

SPEAKER_27 17:23

Hmm.

SPEAKER_07 17:23

Like you get invited to go to this school and you just become a better mage. But I for that one, it's funny because I take like really detailed notes.

SPEAKER_05 17:34

Another question that Brian had brought up to me was if you're playing in a campaign like this, and as you said, scheduling is an issue. If, say, somebody drops out for a week or you get somebody else that comes in and wants to try it out, how easy is it to be able to swap in a character or put somebody in the back burner and you know, I I'm not saying like kill them off or anything, but like if they were just uh oh, this person is not gonna be in this scene this week. I mean, how easy is that to just move things around like that?

SPEAKER_07 18:06

It's actually really easy. Uh and it's a really good question. Uh a lot of times, like if it's like say, like I was when I was in rehab, uh the DMs for my different games just explained, oh, Sean's character is off doing this, or Sean's character is back home dealing with this. And when I came back, they're like, Oh, Sean's character is back. Or a lot of times, like, if you just have to miss one session, the DM will run your character. Like they'll just be like, if they have like an important combat, like a fight, they'll say, Okay, uh, Sean's character is gonna do this and he's gonna cause this much damage, or he's gonna do this and he's gonna steal this.

SPEAKER_05 18:44

So a DM could just potentially I mean, obviously he's gonna play the whole scenario out. Like, his job is to create the story for the characters to play in, but then he also does the work of like, say, an NPC that's not in the story, but it helps move the story forward. But then he could also play as a character who's out. Yep. That seems like an awful lot of things to keep track of as a DM.

SPEAKER_07 19:12

It is, but a lot of DMs are people that have been playing the game for a very long time, and they're able to juggle all of that.

SPEAKER_05 19:21

So for somebody to do it for their very first time, you gotta cut them some slack.

SPEAKER_07 19:27

Because there's a lot to do. Because I've DM'd a good amount of times, and I'm not good at running long-form campaigns because I have trouble keeping you know shit together. But I I I run a lot of what's called one-shots, where it's just anywhere from two to five hours, depending on people's schedules. Uh one adventure. One mini adventure.

SPEAKER_05 19:50

So I mean that's like a a one-off episode kind of thing in a in a TV series.

unknown 19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:57

It looks like the crew of Nevermore is gonna be hanging out at this tavern today, and it just has nothing to do with the story, it's just its own enclosed story. That's a one-off, right?

SPEAKER_07 20:08

Yeah, or you could uh like I use established worlds like uh Xandria that Matthew Mercer created, and because I I know that world pretty well, and I will just okay, you guys are gonna be level ten characters, and you guys have been adventuring for this long, and you're gonna go do this. And that's what they did.

SPEAKER_05 20:30

Okay. So with that stuff, that's beneficial in a sense that way you're still using your character and you're still able to gain experience points, right?

SPEAKER_07 20:41

Uh you can, but generally for one-shots, it's just like you build a character just for this one-shot.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 20:50

Uh sometimes I'll do reoccurring ones with like time jumps. Like, okay, last time you guys were level 10, now you guys are level 14, and you're gonna have all this new cool different shit. And uh for leveling, you mentioned experience points. Uh some people still run it like that, but most people run it as what's called milestone leveling. So basically once you've done a certain amount of stuff and you've passed up certain story beats, that's when you get to level up. Because experience points is kind of it can be kind of fucky lucky, like if one party member, like say you have like this badass sorcerer who can cause massive damage and kill way more bad guys than a fighter, he's gonna level up faster than that fighter.

SPEAKER_04 21:36

Right.

SPEAKER_07 21:36

And it's it's better for the DM and better, I feel, for the story to have everybody level up at the same time. Because then everybody gets to do cool new shit.

SPEAKER_05 21:46

So so, in a way, it's kinda like getting a participation trophy. Like you get experience points because you were here, not because of what you did.

SPEAKER_07 21:54

No, because everybody it's a like like we've been saying, it's like a collaborative effort. Like everybody. Has high lights and everybody has low lights. Got it. Like you'll you'll have uh say a sorcerer and you cast a spell that does eight d6, like six sided dice, eight of them, and the number total is the damage. You can roll all ones and only do eight damage. Or you can roll all sixes and do like eighty points of damage.

SPEAKER_05 22:25

Explain the different dice to me, because what they're gonna get, what, seven different dice?

SPEAKER_07 22:29

Seven different dice. You have the d4. It looks like a little uh little little three, four side sided pyramid.

SPEAKER_04 22:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 22:36

Uh and it's got the numbers one, two, three, and four and different on the different faces. And that's made main mainly used for like buffing spells. So like uh there's a spell called uh guidance. Uh say like I cast guidance on you, that for the next minute you can use that little d4 to add to your roll. So say you roll kind of low and you need to do something cool, you can roll that d4 and get up to four more points to that roll. Uh the d6 is a normal six-sided die, uh, like you use in gambling and board games.

SPEAKER_04 23:12

Sure.

SPEAKER_07 23:13

Uh you have a d8, which is kind of like a double-ended pyramid, and that's mainly used for spell damage and weapon damage. And then you have the d10, which there's actually two of them. You have one that has one through zero, and the zeros treated as a ten, and the other has uh double zeros through ninety, and that's used to do called uh something called percentile rolls, where uh your DM asks you to roll percentile, and depending on what you're trying to do, it can be good if you roll high or it can be good if you roll low. It depends on like the spell or the effect you're trying to obtain. And then you have the d12, which is a 12-sided die, which is used for weapon damage and spell damage, uh, mostly spell damage, as you get to like higher levels. Then you have the d20, which is the penultimate, it's the main die in DD. Uh say you're trying to make an attack roll, you roll that d20. You're trying to roll a spell attack, you roll that d20. You're trying to make a wisdom saving throw, you roll that d20. And the number you get, plus your modifier, whatever that is, is how well or badly you do on that roll.

SPEAKER_05 24:25

So this goes along with like rolling for initiative. I've heard that phrase, I don't exactly understand what it means, other than begin your turn or something, the initiative.

SPEAKER_07 24:35

Rolling rolling for initiative, the initiative order is to decide the order of how things go in in a combat. So say you have a party of five people, and you're fighting ten things, the DM has to roll the initiative for those ten things, and the players roll it for themselves, and that decides what order. Okay, Sean's characters going first, Brian's characters going second, uh, Brennan's characters going third, the bad guys are going fourth, fifth, and sixth. And that's how you decide like what kind of action economy you're gonna use. Because you might have, say, a cleric who has an ability. There's a cleric that has an ability called uh pass to the great. And this basically you mark a you mark a creature, and the next time it takes damage, it's gonna take double damage.

SPEAKER_27 25:24

Hmm.

SPEAKER_07 25:25

And you have a barbarian that has this giant greatsword that does that could do like 15-20 points of damage, you would have that barbarian be like, hey, I'm gonna hold my turn until this cleric can go. Cleric's gonna use his thing, then the barbarian gets to go smash and do massive amounts of damage.

SPEAKER_05 25:41

So every single combat scene is probably gonna have a different outcome depending on what you're fighting and who you're fighting with, to depend on how your team's going to attack.

SPEAKER_07 25:53

Yes, there's there's generally uh a good amount of uh planning and processing. Like, once everybody rolls their initiative, once that initiative was established, you can be like, okay, I need to move over here and attack this guy so my buddy back here doesn't get taken out. Or I'm gonna move if you're like a caster, like a sorcerer or a wizard, you're gonna go behind this little pole so you can have cover while you you know sling your spells.

SPEAKER_05 26:22

See, this is I'm not gonna say this would be difficult for me, but because there would be so many things to have to remember, I clearly I would have to play it a bunch to be able to understand it all.

SPEAKER_07 26:34

But it's how that's how most people are right.

SPEAKER_05 26:37

With uh it being theater of the mind, you have to ask a lot of questions with DM, right? Like, is there a pillar nearby? Is there cover, something to hide behind? You'd have to be able to visualize all this stuff in your head. Whereas it seems like a lot of Dungeons and Dragons uh players have miniatures that they're using. Yep. So does that take away you does it sorry, does that take away from the theater of the mind to have those kind of like the topography laid out for you on a map? Or is it no, not at all.

SPEAKER_07 27:11

So it's easier with that stuff? It gives you yes, it gives you a a really good visualization of what you're looking at. So you can do theater of the mind, and there's a place and time for it. I love running theater of the mind fights. But if you have a bigger party or if you're fighting multiple bad guys, I feel it's more beneficial to be able to see, okay, that big bad guy over there is behind a pillar. I can't attack him. I have to move so I can see him. Or you're uh you have a class called a rogue, which is basically like you're sneaky sneaky, do much damage, sneaky sneaky away.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 27:48

Um if he can get behind somebody, he gets to deal what's called sneak attack damage. That goes up by your level. Like I play a rogue right now, he does his base weapon damage is like a 13, and he also gets to add 5d6 of sneak attack damage. So if your guy can do 50-some points of damage in one attack.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

And so when you're looking at that, obviously there's a whole range and an unlimited range really of bad guys that you could be fighting. Oh, yeah. Is there a standard set of like gremlins have 10 you know hit points or or whatever? Is there something that like a rule book that tells you everything as far as this monster has this ability, this monster has this ability, or is it every campaign you could just change it however you want to?

SPEAKER_07 28:40

You can change it however you want to, but the base game they have something called the monster manual. Okay. Uh and it shows just about every monster that is set from the core game. So you could have goblins, you could have giant ancient dragons, you can have something called a Tarask, which is n which is widely thought of as the most terrifying monster in DD. Like I used to play a fighter, and we would we would be fighting a dragon, he'd be flying around. I couldn't do shit because I can't reach him. But there's other fights where you're fighting a horde of goblins, and I can just go crazy with my war hammer and shwack everybody.

SPEAKER_05 29:21

You shwacker. I am. So when you're about to start a campaign, what kind of a team are you trying to assemble for any given Dungeons and Dragons uh adventure? I mean, how many people do you have? How many people do you have? What types of people do you want on your team?

SPEAKER_07 29:41

Uh that all depends on the people playing. Like uh most DMs will have what's called a session zero, uh, which is basically where you just build your character and you're gonna be like, hey, Brian, what are you playing? Oh, I'm gonna play a cleric. You'd be like, okay, cool, I'm gonna be a sorcerer. And somebody's like, okay, I'll go be a uh a barbarian, and you build the team to like accentuate each other's strengths. Like if I know this wizard, who they're generally called glass cannons, like they're super squishy, but they could do insane amounts of damage. If I know he can't protect himself hardly while he's casting spells, me as a fighter or a barbarian, I'm gonna stand in front of him so nobody can get to him.

SPEAKER_05 30:23

Okay. Explain the squishy. What does it mean to be squishy? Squishy means you're easy to kill. Okay. Like you don't have many hit points. Because like a monster will step on you and squish you.

SPEAKER_07 30:35

They can step on you, they can hit you with their tails, you know, grab you in their claws and rip you rip you apart. Um every class has what's called a hit die, and that decides what kind of hit points you're gonna get. Like a sorcerer and a wizard, their hit die is the d6. So like at sixth level, you would roll six d6, and that's how many hit points you're gonna have.

SPEAKER_05 30:58

Jesus. That's a lot to keep track of.

SPEAKER_07 31:01

It is, but if you have a character sheet right in front of you, that's why they have the character sheets. You'd be like, okay, I am a wizard, I just took 14 points of damage. Oh shit, I need to hide or heal myself somehow. Huh. And that's how you keep track, keep track of your damage on your uh character sheet. And yeah, I'm I get excited.

SPEAKER_05 31:23

I can see that. And that's good. If uh if you weren't excited about Dungeons and Dragons, I don't know why you'd play.

SPEAKER_07 31:31

Yeah. Some people uh like I said, I I always thought, you know, oh fucking nerdy shit, bullshit. Then as I got older, I was like, okay, my brother plays DD. My brother gets a lot of girls. Maybe I should start playing this shit.

SPEAKER_05 31:44

Well, I mean, it does say something about the more you play DD, the more imaginative you could be.

SPEAKER_07 31:49

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's when you can start delving into different classes and subclasses. Like, like I said, I used to normally just play fighters and barbarians, and now I'm getting to be like, okay, these guys can do all this cool shit. I want to try that. Like, I want to go be a druid and work nature magic and shape the land around me into either a weapon or like a shield.

SPEAKER_27 32:14

Hmm.

SPEAKER_07 32:15

Like there's there's one spell the druids can do called erupting earth, where you take like a 20-foot cube, like a you know, 20 feet square, and basically cause a giant earthquake, and whoever's in that square is gonna take a lot of damage.

SPEAKER_05 32:29

Damn. So this is where uh combat would come into play. You'd want to have somebody like that out in front? You would want them kind of midpoint.

SPEAKER_07 32:39

Okay. Uh your your frontline guys are gonna be your barbarians, your fighters. Uh there's a class called Paladin, where basically they are knights. Like you're they're gonna be the guys wearing full plate armor, swinging a big axe. And it used to be a paladin had to follow a deity, like a god, but now in D Fifth edition, they they have an oath, like you have an oath of vengeance, like somebody wronged me, I'm gonna go kill them. Or you have Oath of Glory, where you're just chasing glory. But you also have your uh warlocks, who are gonna be fighters and stuff, but they make a deal with an otherworldly entity, with either Faye creature or a demon or a god, and that god gives them you know the ability to cast some some spells here and there. Those are gonna be your frontliners. And then you're gonna have guys like monks and rogues. Uh if you're thinking monk, think like Vows of Celibacy. Do you don't have to play it like that? That's a great thing. Like I play with a guy who plays a monk, he's a horny motherfucker. Oh my gosh. But uh you think monks think uh shalom monks, like just hand-to-hand combat. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna crush you with my fists and my feet. Uh they're really good at like get in, get out, you know, cause a lot of damage and wreak havoc. Uh rogues, like I said, they're sneaky. Uh they can do a lot of damage as well. Another frontliner could be your cleric. That's gonna be your your holy weapon, like your holy avenger. They're generally gonna have a good melee weapon where they can do some damage, but they're also gonna have some good spells to like heal you or buff you and make you stronger. Then you have rangers, who are widely considered to be the worst class in D, because everything they do goods, a different class does better. Like, yeah, they can hack and slash, but a fighter and barbarian can do that better. They can cast a few spells, but druids and sorcerers are gonna do that better. The the best applications for rangers is to be like a tracker. So think like uh um if you think of Lord of the Rings, Aragorn was a ranger. Okay. He was obviously like god level, but um that was his thing, tracking, finding the enemy, and killing them. Uh then you go into your full-time casters, uh, you have a bard who is the stereotypically horny, I'm gonna fuck everything kind of guy. Or gal, depending on how you want to play.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

Sure.

SPEAKER_07 35:08

Uh their magic is they have some damage stuff, but they're a lot for like battlefield control, and like they get access to a spell called Magnificent Mansion, to where you can cast this spell and your whole party can rest undisturbed for up to 24 hours.

SPEAKER_04 35:23

Oh, that's helpful.

SPEAKER_07 35:25

Yeah, and Brian's room in this magnificent tower is gonna be all of Brian's favorite cool shit. Sean's room in this tower is gonna be all of Sean's favorite cool shit. And it's all just flavored to however you want to use it. But uh then you have your wizards and your sorcerers, which are same same but different. Uh, wizards get their magic through study and reading books and finding spellbooks of long lost mages. That's how they obtain their magic. But they have a way wider array of spells they can use. Whereas sorcerers are born with that innate magical ability, but they only get a certain amount of spells they can cast per day.

SPEAKER_05 36:05

That seems kind of a hindrance.

SPEAKER_07 36:08

It is, but they also have this neat thing called sorcery points, to where uh say there's two bad guys, right? And they're on opposite ends of the map. You can burn a couple sorcery points and do this thing called twin spell, where you can lob a fireball at each guy, which can be pretty broken. They have all sorts of different little abilities like that, like uh say you're fighting something vulnerable to fire damage, you can change a lightning spell to a fire spell, and they would take more damage that way.

SPEAKER_05 36:38

So that's what that's what a sorcerer can do.

SPEAKER_07 36:41

Yes. Whereas wizards, uh, they commit these spells to memory at the beginning of every day, they uh prepare certain amount of spells per level. Um, and they generally some of their subclasses get to do cool shit, but the rest of them is just oh, you're the amount of money you need to commit these spells to memories is halved. Hmm. Whereas the other caster classes don't have to commit the spells to memory, they just know them.

SPEAKER_05 37:08

So you had mentioned the DM sets up the session zero. Does the DM kind of give you a an idea of this is the kind of adventure you're gonna have? So here's a suggestion of the type of classes you want on your team, or does he not give you that kind of information?

SPEAKER_07 37:25

He will he will give you the information, okay, this is the setting we're gonna play in. Uh, this is the kind of shit you can expect. Some DMs, like a friend of mine is a therapist, and she uses DD as therapy for at-risk youth. So for those groups, she will give them uh a sheet with a bunch of questions on it, be like, what are things you're not comfortable with? What are things that you don't want to see in this game? And I think that's really good because you could have someone who had massive childhood trauma and they're not going to want to see kids getting hurt.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

Hmm.

SPEAKER_07 38:00

So you're gonna keep that out of your game so you don't mess with that person's experience. But yeah, the DM will say, okay, this is the setting, this is the kind of stuff you can expect, and then he'll let you like he might say, Oh, if you're planning on playing a fighter, you might want to think about this subclass. But most DMs will just be like, okay, make your characters, roll your stats.

SPEAKER_05 38:25

I I couldn't imagine like going into a fight. Say, you got your session zero, and you are really invested in making a ranger or something that turns out isn't very helpful in the adventure that you're going on, and then you just spend the entire session or however long you're gonna be playing it, and you're just kind of useless.

SPEAKER_07 38:44

That's where a thing called multi-classing can come in.

SPEAKER_05 38:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 38:48

So uh the last fighter I played, uh, he was a dwarf. He was a former soldier, like all about family and honor and tradition. And after that dragon fight I told you about a few minutes ago, he's like, fuck, I'm useless. Like, I can't if something is flying away, I cannot attack it or keep it here.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

Right.

SPEAKER_07 39:10

So he took some levels in uh cleric. So he could have some you know, buffer spells to like, okay, I can't do any damage to him this way, but I can cast this spell on my bow and do damage to him that way.

SPEAKER_05 39:26

Is that something that happens like is it a typical thing in DD where you can cross-play like that? Or what do you call it, cross-level?

SPEAKER_07 39:35

Uh it's called uh multiclassing.

SPEAKER_05 39:38

Multi-classing. Is that is that a normal thing, or is that just like Oh yes. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_07 39:44

Like, I try not to do it because uh, yeah, you get some cool shit, but it kind of takes away from your main class. Because your class, you every couple levels you get new abilities. It's called uh class abilities. Like clery's if you take a couple levels in fighter, you're gonna lose out on higher level spell slots, more spells available. If you go from wizard to monk or monk to wizard, you're gonna lose out on more spell slots, or you're gonna miss out on uh being able to do other cool monk shit. But there are times when it's super applicable and it works really well.

SPEAKER_05 40:23

And all of this happens just throughout any given session. You could say, okay, Brian the warrior is now gonna go learn some spells, and then you just go away for a little while. I mean, how does it work?

SPEAKER_07 40:35

You just No, it's uh it would generally be flavored like, okay, um, my fighter, we had a party cleric, and whenever the DM says, Okay, you level up, and I was like, I want to take a level in cleric or a couple levels in cleric, and he's like, Okay, how are you gonna flavor this? And I would say, I'm just gonna spend all day traveling talking to this cleric, and he's gonna teach me about his god and how to use these gifts, or say, I want to go multi-class into wizard. He's gonna go find a wizard or talk to the wizard in a party and be like, okay, how do I do this? I mean, you could you could make a broken character, or you can make a busted character, which is what I call bad. Most of the time I try to stay to the same class, but I know uh there's a girl in one of my games, she has levels in four different classes. Because she likes to do be to be able to do super neat shit. She started out as barred, then she took a couple levels in Warlock because her character was failing all her classes. So this warlock changed her uh patron, warlock patron, like somehow changed all her grades and she got access to new spells.

SPEAKER_05 41:49

So uh I've heard the term min-maxing.

SPEAKER_07 41:52

Min-maxing, yes. That is when when you roll your stat. So, like, say I'm a fighter, right? I want to be super strong. So I'm gonna put as many points into strength as I can, and I'm not gonna worry about dexterity or wisdom or intelligence. So those are all gonna stay low. I'm gonna take all the points I can and put it into strength and constitution.

SPEAKER_05 42:17

So something like that. Is that a useful thing to do? I mean, if you're super strong, but you're an idiot. I mean, is that helping the team really?

SPEAKER_07 42:26

Yes, because you can do a lot of damage.

SPEAKER_05 42:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 42:29

Uh if you've watched uh have you watched Legend of Oxmachina on Prime?

SPEAKER_05 42:32

All three seasons. Fucking love it.

SPEAKER_07 42:34

Uh uh, Grog is in is a good establishment of a min-max. Like he's got a strength of 20, but an intelligence of six.

SPEAKER_04 42:43

Kind of reminds me of Dirax the Destroyer.

SPEAKER_07 42:46

Yes, very much so. Dirax the Destroyer would be a very min-maxed character.

SPEAKER_05 42:52

So we you were talking about your friend that it would have like four class levels that wouldn't be considered min-max because that's spreading out all your levels to have multiple skills, right?

SPEAKER_07 43:04

Every character has the same six base skills. Okay. Uh strength, constitution, intelligence, dexterity, wisdom, and charisma. Okay, your DD stats explained, alright? Strength, being able to crush a tomato. Dexterity, being able to dodge a tomato. Constitution. Being able to eat a rotten tomato. Intelligence. Knowing tomato is a fruit. Wisdom, knowing a tomato does not belong in a fruit salad. And charisma, I could sell a tomato-based fruit salad.

SPEAKER_05 43:39

Oh man. So you definitely have to work on a little bit of everything to uh not be a complete moron.

SPEAKER_07 43:48

No, and and the thing is, like, say your intelligence is six, uh, and the DM says, hey, make this intelligence check for it. If you roll a natural 20. You're still gonna have a really good roll. Or if you roll high, you're still gonna have a really good roll.

SPEAKER_05 44:06

So say you're walking into a situation where you're going to a gate and there's a gate guard. You would roll for like charisma if hypothetically the situation is you want to talk to that gate guard to see if he'll get out of the way and let you by. Kind of like a Jedi mind trick. You'll roll for charisma.

SPEAKER_07 44:26

You could use charisma for persuasion, which is one of your skill tree uh on your skill tree. Uh you could also use charisma for intimidation. You could scare the guy into doing what you want. And if he rolls low, he's gonna be scared. Or if you have a really high charisma, you'd be like, hey man, you're kinda cute. Like, let me pass. And if they roll really, okay, like blushing and let you through. But if they roll high, they'll be like, uh fuck you, dude.

SPEAKER_05 44:54

And really, this is all in the mind. You know, you can come up with any scenario, you can come up with any way to get around the scenario, as long as you're using your imagination.

SPEAKER_07 45:06

But then you could say, okay, if if your bard, who's generally like your high charisma super suave guy, if he fails that charisma, hey, barbarian, cut this guy's head off.

SPEAKER_05 45:19

So how how quickly can this change? So, like, if you've got four people in your party and you're going up to this scenario with the gate guard, if the first person fails, how many times are you gonna be able to do this? I mean, does everybody get a shot at it, or is it not necessarily, but sometimes they can.

SPEAKER_07 45:36

Uh I've had instances where, like, say my character was an elf and the gate guard was an elf. And the human bard trying to be trying to persuade him, and he's like, nah, fuck you, dude. And then on an elf, they're like, hey bro, like, same same, we're same same, but different. Like, hook it up. Uh or you can have the big dumb barbarian just go cut his head off. You generally try to avoid killing people, random people. That's what's called a murder hobo. Killing everybody?

SPEAKER_05 46:07

Murder hobo?

SPEAKER_07 46:08

Murder hobo, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 46:10

Because you're just an itinerant traveler going around killing everybody. Wow. But you generally try to stay away from that because that can derail a campaign real fast.

SPEAKER_05 46:19

If all of a sudden all the NPCs are dead, there's nobody to help you move the story forward. No one's gonna be. And then the DM's like, well, I guess you're not getting into this gate now, because uh there's now an army of trolls coming to kill you because you killed their gate guard.

SPEAKER_07 46:44

And you can stand and fight or you can run. And trolls, now that you mention them, are terrifying creatures in DD. Uh they have great health regeneration. Uh the only thing that really hurts them is fire.

SPEAKER_04 46:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 47:00

Like if you chop their arm off, they can grow their arm back.

SPEAKER_05 47:03

That's terrifying.

SPEAKER_07 47:05

Yeah, it's pretty pretty nifty. And it's up to the DM how hard or how easy he wants to make things.

SPEAKER_05 47:12

So you you should basically be really nice to your DM. So that way they're not being spiteful and throwing everything at you.

SPEAKER_07 47:20

In a good DM, generally speaking, the the people playing are all gonna know each other and be friends. It's not always the case. Sometimes you can just go run a game for a bunch of strangers and go like that. I don't like to do that because I like to learn know people before I play with them. And playing with friends makes planning and execution of the game a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_05 47:40

So say if like your DM knows you really well and he knows that typically every time you go into a fight, you're gonna do this scenario first because he knows how you think. He's gonna try to outsmart you, or is he gonna work with you?

SPEAKER_07 47:54

I mean, he's he's trying to make it complicated, right? Yes. They want to make it difficult, but they don't want to make it too difficult and do what's called a TPK, a total party kill. He doesn't want to kill everybody. It's not the DM versus the players, it's the DM and the players telling, like you said, a collaborative story. Sometimes your character does dumb shit and dies. Sometimes, like uh I I had a character, uh, he died a few months back. I cried because I was super emotionally invested in this character when he died. Wow. I've had and I've had characters die that I was like, oh well, drop a new character, no problem.

SPEAKER_05 48:32

Is this all because you you put so much time into making a character and all of a sudden he's gone and now it's it's over, or is it like it's emotional?

SPEAKER_07 48:42

It's emotional because you've built that character up. Uh you've made re his character has made relationships with the other characters in the party. Uh like he was the party, he was the clerk, he was the party healer. Uh he took my one friend's character under his wing because she was she's country smart, you know? She's hey y'all! Okay. But he saw her as innocent and she needed to be protected because he didn't want her to see the world for how ugly it was.

SPEAKER_27 49:10

Huh.

SPEAKER_07 49:11

And you make those relationships with the other characters, and it bums you out because you've you've cre you've molded this character from level one, basically a fucking pissant commoner who could die from one sword hit to this kind of powerful dude who just wants to protect his friends. And that's how he died. He put himself into a group of in the middle of a group of vampire spawn so his friends could get away.

SPEAKER_05 49:37

That's selfless sacrifice. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_07 49:41

It was, and it sucks because I really like that character, but now I'm playing a really cool character too.

SPEAKER_05 49:46

And I'm guessing if you really like a character, you're allowed to use it again in another adventure some other day, or is it like, that's it, start over?

SPEAKER_07 49:56

No, you can very much uh like I keep all of my character sheets.

SPEAKER_04 50:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 50:01

Uh, and and I might use them again in like a one-shot, or I might bring them back as a different class. Like it'll be the same person, but instead of a cleric, he's gonna be a sorcerer. And when your character dies, there are things you can do in some settings that okay, maybe he's not really dead. Maybe this entity over here, yeah, I'm not done with you, homie. Like, I'll bring you back, but you gotta do something for me. Hmm.

SPEAKER_05 50:29

I mean, it's kind of like in comic books. No one's ever really dead.

SPEAKER_07 50:34

No, sometimes you're dead, Dead.

SPEAKER_05 50:36

Okay. Well, I just watched the uh Dungeons and Dragons movie, Honor Among Thieves. It came out in 2023. Great movie. I I fucking love it. I've seen it several times, and yet I've never played Dungeons and Dragons, but I love the movie.

SPEAKER_07 50:50

So there was this next time I come up to Minnesota, I'll run a game for you.

SPEAKER_05 50:54

Hell yeah. So there was a tablet of reawakening. I mean, all of these things are are MacGuffins to find in any story, and say your character died, well, somebody who else who's on this McGuffin hunt for the tablet of reawakening, they could save you, right?

unknown 51:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 51:16

So, I mean, really, are you really dead? Really?

SPEAKER_07 51:21

It depends on the setting, and it depends on the DM. The clerics have a spell called Revivify. So if they can get to you within one minute of you dying, and they have to have a diamond that's worth 300 gold piece or more, they can they can revive you with a spell. Uh there are other higher level spells that aren't bound by that time constraint. There's one called true resurrection, once you get up to like 18th or 19th level, that you can have a bone, like a figure bone, from your long-lost great-great-grandpa and resurrect it. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 51:57

See, I think what a lot of people's problem is when they're talking about Dungeons and Dragons and saying, like, oh, that stops for nerds and dorks, and I would never play that. I I wonder if it's just because they don't have the imagination to come up with these kind of stories and ideas.

SPEAKER_07 52:12

I think it could be that, or it could be like me. When I was a kid, I was like, these guys are fucking nerds. I'm a football player, I'm gonna fucking go associate with these guys. And yeah, it's a lot of short-sightedness. Like you just it's just a bunch of people sitting at a table playing a game.

SPEAKER_05 52:29

You hate what you don't know or don't understand. Exactly. Yep. Alright, so um, so I was gonna say, maybe we'll I've got okay, so I I I did some work here, some research to get this timeline more or less of Dungeons and Dragons because you've been playing it for 25 years, yeah, but it's been around for a very long time. 2020 2024 was 50th anniversary. It's been around a long time. So I wrote up this timeline of bullet points more or less over the decades, as far as various things that has happened to grow the game or or create the story of well, I mean not the story, but like the history of Dungeons and Dragons. So I wouldn't mind uh going over that a little bit. Um so all this started off 1971, well, as early as 1971, by Gary Gayac and Jeff Arnas, I think his name is. Yep. Um, so they create and release this game called Chainmail, which is medieval miniature war. And so miniatures have been around in Dungeons and Dragons this entire time because that's where it was all stemming from, right? Yep. Dungeons and Dragons at that point, technically chainmail at that point, was here are the rules for how to use these characters, these miniatures, and how to work on your war. So when they came out with this in 1974, this was the next group of people, I guess it was, because it was Gary Gygax, and now it's this Minnesotan named Dave Arneson, and they come out with the original DD. Yep. So that's why that's a 1974. But for the first three years with this chain mail, it wasn't Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_07 54:25

No, it's just medieval warfare.

SPEAKER_05 54:27

If I'm if I'm remembering right, the original like chain mail publishing, that was like a holy grail kind of thing for Dungeons and Dragons aficionados, right? Yeah. Well, so in 1974, TSR, Tactical Studies Rules, is publishing the original DD game, and in this first year it sold a thousand copies. Now, as the years go on, they keep growing, they keep coming up with new ideas, and so in 1977, they split the story. Now there's basic Dungeons and Dragons and advanced Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_07 55:07

Also known as second edition.

SPEAKER_05 55:09

Okay, so that's second edition. What what's some of the biggest differences that make it advanced Dungeons and Dragons?

SPEAKER_07 55:15

Uh I'm not super up to snuff on this stuff, but uh they had a thing, I think I've mentioned it before called FACO. TH A C A Zero. Yes, uh to hit armor class zero. So in this game, I don't know why, but you wanted your armor class to be low, because that means the opponents had to roll low to hit as opposed to in modern DD, you want to have a much higher armor class, so that's harder to hit. So it's kind of backwards. And uh the the combat rules were weird in second edition. I've only ever played one second edition game and it couldn't last very long.

SPEAKER_05 55:58

Just because it's so different?

SPEAKER_07 56:00

No, we got we got total party killed like the third third uh session. Gotcha. Because we just all rolled like shit and we all died.

SPEAKER_05 56:09

I mean, really, you can't control the dice. It's they do what they do.

SPEAKER_07 56:13

No, you can't. You pray to the dice gods that your rolls are good. Uh some players, if you're not rolling good, we'll do what's called putting our dice in dice gel, or we just won't use those for the rest of the session.

SPEAKER_05 56:25

Because you feel like you're cursed or something?

SPEAKER_07 56:30

It's a it's a superstition, really. Okay. I mean, you roll a dice, there's uh 20% chance you're gonna roll well. And you either roll well or you won't. And so some people I know have gone to the lengths of having weighted dice to where you always roll good. But that's cheating and that's not fun.

SPEAKER_27 56:48

Yeah, that sucks.

SPEAKER_07 56:49

Uh you have another method of cheating which I've actually used and been caught with in the past called uh fudging your rolls. Where you roll the dice and you'll just kind of pick it up and shift it a little bit. You say, oh shit. I uh and I felt like shit, and my my forever DMs basically said if I catch you doing this again, you're gonna you're not gonna be welcome at my table. So I took that to heart and I just don't fucking do it anymore. Um but yeah, I would take that seven be like and just shift it slightly. Oh, that's a 16.

SPEAKER_05 57:20

See, uh it just doesn't seem like it gives you the same rush of the game. Because, you know, if you say a critical fail, you don't know where the story's gonna take you, right? But if you're always so you know, quote unquote succeeding because you're always rolling high, that doesn't give you that fun.

SPEAKER_07 57:39

I mean it it doesn't. Uh I mean, to a point, I mean, yeah, you're doing a bunch of cool shit. Because when you fail, you have to think, oh fuck, what do I need to do this to fucking get a comeback for that? Like a good DM, say I go to hit, I roll a natural one, he can be like, oh, you take seven points of damage if you cut into your own leg. Or you could or your DM could be like, oh, you just miss. And that's what a lot of DMs will do.

SPEAKER_04 58:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 58:08

Or say, like, uh you and I are in the same party, you are twenty feet behind one of your party members, I'm 20 feet in front of them. I want to shoot your no your party members in the middle, sorry. The enemy's the other side. Uh say I want to shoot the guy with my arrow, and I don't want to move. If I roll high, it's gonna whiz right past you and hit the enemy. If I roll low, there's a chance I could hit you with the arrow instead.

SPEAKER_05 58:34

So that would definitely create some tension and some uh intrigue in the story. Oh shit, I accidentally I rolled a what? A critical fail.

SPEAKER_07 58:45

Shot you, sorry, buddy.

SPEAKER_05 58:49

Just it just seems like it'd be so much more fun to fail.

SPEAKER_07 58:53

It really can be.

SPEAKER_05 58:55

It just seems like if you always win, that's not fun. If just like if you always fail, that's not fun either. It's the variety that's the spice of life. So it seems like fudging the dice would really kind of just suck to play with somebody like that.

SPEAKER_07 59:12

Yeah, and that's that's why I stopped, because it's not cool.

SPEAKER_05 59:16

I'm glad that you stopped.

SPEAKER_07 59:18

I am too, because being at that table is a big part of my mental health. So if that's something it gets me out of the house, and I get to hang out with friends and play a game that I love.

SPEAKER_05 59:31

And if you cheat and your friends say, we don't like it, go away, that would probably hurt your mental health a lot too.

SPEAKER_07 59:38

Oh yeah, oh yeah. Especially with me being in recovery, like from drinking.

SPEAKER_05 59:43

Congratulations, by the way.

SPEAKER_07 59:45

Yeah, I feel good. Waking up and actually having energy is insane.

audio clip

SPEAKER_05 59:51

I love that feeling. Alright, so here we go with our timeline. So that's 77 to 79. This whole second edition advanced Dungeons and Dragons. That's the next step in the timeline. So now, after that, here's the big event that I think really sparked interest around the country. 1979. James Dallas Egbert III disappears and it takes the country by storm, bringing DD to the mainstream conscious. I've got a quick audio clip. This was a New York Times that did this YouTube video to talk about James Dallas Egbert, and it's actually a two-part, so maybe I'll throw it both in.

SPEAKER_29 1:00:39

The role-playing game Dungeons ⁇ Dragons debuted in 1974. It became a hit with many adolescents, but critics claimed it was an invitation to devil worship, the witchcraft, the demonism, the spells, and worse, it is not a game. The media set off a satanic panic.

SPEAKER_37 1:00:58

A lot of adults think it's been connected to a number of suicides and murders.

SPEAKER_29 1:01:02

That connection has been largely debunked. It's nothing but a witchcraft, and the game has generated an unexpected legacy.

audio clip

SPEAKER_05 1:01:10

This was a revolution. That was the beginning of this uh YouTube video that I saw. The second part of it starts off talking about James Dobbs Egbert.

SPEAKER_29 1:01:21

Egbert was a complicated teenager whose disappearance was never fully explained and who later committed suicide.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

There was speculation he was the victim of a campus game called Dungeons and Dragons, but after a month-long nationwide search, he was found unharmed.

SPEAKER_29 1:01:37

Deer fed into the growing suspicions about DD in a book that pointed to the game as a culprit in Egbert's disappearance. But Tim Kask, who helped develop DD with Gary Gygax, says Deer was just hyping the story for personal gain.

SPEAKER_12 1:01:52

He was a publicity hound. And uh he knew that he could hang it on DD and gather a lot of media frenzy, and he did. Dallas Egbert is a tragic story. Brilliant young man sent off to university at 15 that had nothing to do with DD in the steam tunnels.

SPEAKER_29 1:02:11

Still, that attention set off an unexpected chain of events.

SPEAKER_12 1:02:15

Our stock took off. Literally. We sold thousands of more copies within 90 days of all that stuff happening, and we were up in print runs. Um, that's when we took off.

SPEAKER_29 1:02:28

Sales nearly quadrupled the year after Egbert disappeared. As the cult game was going mainstream, Dungeons and Dragons generated interest in two conflicting groups: people who wanted to buy it and those who wanted to ban it. And televangelists took on a new crusade.

SPEAKER_31 1:02:46

They are kids like yours, like the ones in your neighborhood. Kids who are turning to darkness because society has shut God out.

SPEAKER_34 1:02:55

Conservative fundamentalist Christian group would see a game that involved satanic figures, evil figures that would be a source of concern.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

Dungeons and Dragons has been called the most effective introduction to the occult in the history of man. It is a fantasy role-playing game that teaches demonology, witchcraft.

SPEAKER_29 1:03:18

Gygax, a religious man himself, was put on the defensive. The company hired psychologist Dr. Joyce Brothers to fend off criticism. But the controversy grew after the news media reported that a string of teen murders and suicides had one thing in common.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:46

So James Dallas Egbert, he disappears, he's a young guy, he's supposedly goes into the tunnels because he wants to play Dungeons and Dragons. And there's a private investigator that's supposed to go out there and find him. But what really happened was that James called the guy, who, the private investigator, and told him, hey, this is where I am, this is where I was. And the case kind of closed itself. But because of the panic around the country and like the news reporting about it, oh, this kid uh disappeared and he's trying to go off into the into the sewers to go kill himself, and it became this suicidal panic where parents were so worried about their kids. And eventually this panic in 1981 started spreading into media, so not just newspaper clippings or or news castings. This was a book that was written by a writer named Rona Jaffe, and she wrote the book Mazes and Monsters, inspired by the events of James Dallas Egbert. Have you ever read the book? Do you know about it?

SPEAKER_07 1:04:55

I've heard of it. Okay. And it was to my knowledge, it was just a complete smearpiece.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:03

Yeah, yeah, I could see that because they're trying to make it look like this kid who's playing Dungeons and Dragons loses all sense of reality and he just has this complete disconnect where he doesn't understand fantasy versus reality. And that's where the whole steam tunnel thing is because he wants to go lurp down in the in the steam tunnels of the college that he was at because he doesn't understand what reality is anymore. And so, like you were saying about the smear campaign, that's pretty much what it was.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:35

Now it's up to Christians fucking I was gonna go there.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:42

So in 1982, uh a woman named Patricia Pulling, she forms this organization called Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, B A D D. Bad. Because uh her son committed suicide, and so Patricia Pulling, she Blame Dungeons and Dragons. You've got a series of events throughout the country, like a couple of murders and a couple of suicides.

SPEAKER_37 1:06:08

If you found 12 kids in murder suicide with one connecting factor in each of them, wouldn't you question it? And that's all people do. I would certainly do it in a scientific manner, and this is as unscientific as you can get it.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:21

It's nothing but a witch hunt. And they linked it and said, okay, here is 12 incidences. They played Dungeons and Dragons. Therefore, blame Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:31

Yep, it's the game.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:32

It's bullshit.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:34

It's the same thing as uh if you remember Columbine, they said it was the fault of like Marilyn Manson's music.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:41

Yeah, right. I know Brian Brian would think the same way, the whole Columbine thing. He says it ruined the movie Boondock Saints. Yep. So it's it's kind of like that. Or Dungeons and Dragons. We can't play Dungeons and Dragons because that makes them believe in the occult and demonology. And so that one comment from that news report was actually Gary Gygax himself saying, it's just a witch hunt, which is pretty much what it was. But so to go along with that 1982 situation with bad, they also had that same year come out with a movie for the book Mazes and Monsters. And I thought that was interesting.

SPEAKER_10 1:07:29

That I didn't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:30

So I I thought this was interesting that this was a made-for-TV movie and it was funded by the anti-violence, like for television group.

SPEAKER_36 1:07:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:40

And this was Tom Hanks' first ever movie role. Oh, Jesus. So he played the character that would be most associated to the James Dallas Egbert because at the end of the movie, he's literally living in his parents' house, and his friends come to visit him, you know, at the at the end of the movie, like, hey, how are you doing, buddy? And he's talking about he's living at the innkeeper's house, which is his parents' house, but it's he's so gone from reality. Wow. So I need to go watch this. Yeah. 1982 made for TV movie, mazes and monsters, based on the book. You could rent it, obviously, but I there's not a lot of places that have it, because you know, made for TV. Yeah. So we'll find a copy on Betamax. Definitely, definitely. Um, so now here we are in 1983. Dungeons and Dragons and TSR is really getting it's becoming mainstream. Kind of like imagine Facebook. Like it was originally just a college thing, and now the more people learn about it, the more people are using it. Just like with this, you get Dungeons and Dragons. Oh no, they got this game that people don't want us to play. Let's go play it. So in 1982, 1983, Dungeons and Dragons is really becoming uh it's it's hitting its strides, sort of say. So Gary Gygax moves the TSR branch, because uh it's originally Midwest, so he's from Wisconsin, but he moves TSR to start Dungeons and Dragons entertainment in California.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:19

So that same year, when Gary Gygax is moving to California to get media, they also come out with Dungeons and Dragons, the animated series.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:32

Have you seen it?

SPEAKER_07 1:09:33

I've seen a few episodes and pretty bad.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:37

Yeah, I could see that. So like for the for the times, it was great. I mean, in 1983, that's like the same era as like Care Bears.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:46

Hey, don't talk shit on Care Bears.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:49

Oh, I'm so sorry. So this show ended up lasting three years, and there was a fun, I guess you'd call it uh Easter egg, in the movie Dungeons and Dragons Honor Among Thieves. When they're doing that, the Sun games. Yep. One of the other teams is dressed like the characters from the Dungeons and Dragons animated show.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:12

Yep, I I caught that the second time I watched it.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:16

See, I didn't know anything about it, so I found it out watching a bunch of YouTube videos trying to learn stuff for this episode. 1983, Gary Gygax goes and does this in California, but by 85, he's literally ousted from his position at TSR because everything that they're doing is they're trying to build the business, they're trying to write novels, they're trying to get as much media presence as they can, but none of them are really business savvy. No. By 85, they're going through some problems financially, and Gary Gygax gets ousted from the company that he started, TSR. New Woman comes and starts over, you know, starts uh trying to rebuild the business, and by 89, they come out with the next edition. And I have it marked as it's the second edition of DD, but I guess it's not. Um, but in this new edition, they're taking out words like demon and devil because they're trying to become more mainstream and get rid of that demonology idea. They want to get the younger audience playing it so that way it's not frowned upon for them to play it.

unknown 1:11:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:29

1990. Wizards of the Coast is founded in California. So now I want to say it's a rival company because this is the company that created Magic the Gathering. So this was 1993, it comes out, and a lot of the card game is inspired by DD characters. Have you played much Magic the Gathering?

SPEAKER_07 1:11:53

I did some when I was younger, but I never really got into it.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:57

Does it have much of a connection to DD, or is it just inspiration from the books and the characters and monsters?

SPEAKER_07 1:12:05

I'd say it took inspiration from the books and the monsters and stuff, but I never really fully understood the system because at that time I was getting into sports and girls, and I didn't have time for that shit, so to speak. The cool stuff, got it. Yeah. Alright. So now here we But I know I know people that have spent tens of thousands of dollars on magic cards. And they go to tournaments and play magic, like all across the country.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:32

Like Brian has said before, everyone is a nerd about something.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:37

Oh yeah. Like uh Magic was the foundation for Pokemon card game. It was the foundation for Yu-Gi-Oh! and all sorts all that other kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:47

Yeah, so it all had to start somewhere. So it seems like Magic the Gathering started because they were using some of the Dungeons and Dragons story, which makes it the more interesting that in 1997 the uh wizards of the West Coast purchased TSR for$25 million. And the reason this happened was because, like I said, Gary Gygax is not very business savvy, and so they were having a lot of uh financial issues because the agreement that they had with Random House, the distribution company, was we're gonna get paid for what we sell you, and they don't really care how much Random House actually sells. And so the biggest issue was they had this lawsuit with Random House, or Random House sued TSR because well, you're just giving us all this inventory that we can't sell. Well, you're kind of fucking over our company, and so there's a lawsuit that took them for everything they had, and so WOTC, the wizards of the West Coast, were able to purchase it for$25 million. Yep. But then in 1999, two years later, they were able to sell the WOTC company to Hasbro for$325 million. Yep. Alright, now it's 2000, and the third edition of DD is released, among other changes, the D20 system is introduced. What do you think are the biggest differences as far as additions go? Because if the D20 is how the game is played. Okay, so the D20 system, that's what you were talking about, the 20-sided dice.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:29

Yes, that is that is the focal point of the dice. Everything you do or everything you try to do is tied to that D20.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:37

So this 2000's third edition or whatever, 3.5 or whatever it is, that was the biggest change to come to Dungeons and Dragons, it sounds like. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:48

Uh 3.5, like 3.0, 3.5 is widely thought of as the best edition.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:54

And this is actually right about the time that you started to get into it, because if you said 25 years, that's 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:00

Oh one, oh two, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:02

Now, at the same time in 2000, the first Dungeons and Dragons live action movie comes out. And it was awful. Fucking 9% on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah, it was bad. Yeah, uh I don't know anything about it. I don't think I've ever seen it. I know Jeremy Irons is in it. Marlon Waits.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:23

If you're not like super Yeah, if you're not super into DD, I I think you would enjoy it. It's a it's a kitschy, cute little movie, but as somebody who's into DD, it's a steaming pile of shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:33

Okay. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:35

The acting is acting is kind of poor. The casting is bad. Like Rayleigh in a fucking No, I don't want to see Ray Lota in a high fantasy movie. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh, Matthew Lillard was in it.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:49

Um so there might be some reasons to watch it if you like kitschy, campy, fun fantasy movies.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:58

As a standalone product, it's not bad. Okay. But as a representation of DD, it's Steven Piper's shit. Yeah, not good.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:08

Now, 2008. Two things happened in my opinion. The fourth edition being released. Now I don't have any notes as far as what is different with the fourth edition.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:18

Yeah, we don't we don't talk about fourth edition.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:20

Okay. Okay, so let's not talk about that then.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:24

It was no, it's it's just fourth edition was just bad. It was objectively bad.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:32

So now we need to they tried screwing with the mechanics of the game too much and tried changing too much of the rules. Just in the name of making money. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:44

That does seem to be something TSR does, is they try to come up with new things to try to make money.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:51

That's that's when they uh like when they bring out all these new editions and new rules. Okay, now I have to buy all these new books.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:58

Got it.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:59

If I want if I want to stay current with the game. That's why some people I know some people that still play 3.5.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:07

We don't we don't talk about the new rules.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:10

No, because when they did fifth edition, they streamlined a lot and made it super user-friendly.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:15

Okay. So it's literally just gloss over 4th edition. Pretty much. Okay. Okay. Um, so the other thing that happened in 2008 that I am a fan of was Futurama. So Futurama got canceled, and one of the things they did to keep making the show, even though it wasn't a show, you know, a show that was on TV, they made movies.

unknown 1:17:42

Yep.

audio clip

SPEAKER_05 1:17:43

So they made three hour and a half long episodes, um, but they were sold as movies. And there was this episode or movie called Futurama Bender's Game. And this is still looked at as like a top ten best representation of Dungeons and Dragons ever. Um I'm I'm aware. So I've got two audio clips that I'm gonna play to kind of show you what Futurama's Bender's game is all about, because I thought it was fun. Okay.

SPEAKER_14 1:18:12

Yes, ten! Well done, Cubonius! You decapitated the unicorn!

SPEAKER_21 1:18:18

Oh, oh, we searched his tail pouch for treasure!

SPEAKER_14 1:18:21

Deep in the unicorns rumpsack, you find sixty gold pieces.

SPEAKER_21 1:18:28

Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. I guess the spell of detective magic.

SPEAKER_15 1:18:34

What you doing, mini meatbags? Underage gambling? Gambling.

SPEAKER_21 1:18:39

We're not gambling. We're playing Dungeons and Dragons. Right now we're fighting for our lives in the lair of the Dragon Queen.

SPEAKER_15 1:18:47

Uh, Ron, right now you're ass deep in a folding chair.

SPEAKER_21 1:18:50

Yes, but in my imagination. I'm riding a golden packages.

SPEAKER_15 1:18:56

Am I the only one sitting in sitting here with peanut butter on his face? Linda, were you built without an imagination? Well, don't be stupid. Of course not.

SPEAKER_21 1:19:10

Oh my goodness, twenty!

SPEAKER_14 1:19:12

Your polloom does double damage, and the gelatinous cube dies in horrible poverty.

SPEAKER_21 1:19:20

I forced to cast a spell of darkness. Ooh, most ingenious. Uh bender.

SPEAKER_15 1:19:29

I um catch the spell of darkness. Ooh. Pretty imaginative, huh?

SPEAKER_20 1:19:36

No, you just did the same thing as me, but with a dull noise.

SPEAKER_15 1:19:40

Oh. You're right. I'm great in every way except I have no imagination. All I ever wanted is to play this magical game, and I can't.

SPEAKER_14 1:19:51

Yes, you can. You just have to lose yourself in the fantasy. You have to believe the impossible is merely preposterous. Okay. Here it goes.

SPEAKER_15 1:20:01

Write it down. I believe. I believe. I did it! I imagined something for 1.3 milliseconds. I truly believed I was a noble robot in days of yonder.

SPEAKER_21 1:20:19

What is my character's name, good sir?

SPEAKER_15 1:20:22

Um I am titanium as Englesmith, fancy man of Cornwood.

SPEAKER_14 1:20:30

As your dwarf skin canoe rounds a band, you suddenly see a terrifying red dragon. What do we do? What do we do?

SPEAKER_15 1:20:40

Wait, no. I make use of my run of fireballs.

SPEAKER_20 1:20:48

Everyone knows red dragons are immune to fireballs as well as all other forms of incendiary attack.

SPEAKER_15 1:20:54

Yes. But I ain't put at the dragon, but at the river itself, to create a shroud of steam through which we can escape.

SPEAKER_14 1:21:04

Sweet pony of Sierra Leone. It worked.

audio clip

SPEAKER_05 1:21:10

Yeah. So it's it kind of reminds me of what I said earlier about the uh you hate what you don't understand. So like Ben Bender was he just didn't have the ability to use his imagination because you know he's a robot, he doesn't have the imagination. So this kind of ties in with that mazes and monsters theme because Bender, throughout the show, starts losing his grip on what reality is, and so he becomes this titanius Englewood, and he can't escape that idea. And so, like his friends, like Fry, he's worried about him. So this next clip is kind of like, you know, I'm worried about my friend Bender.

SPEAKER_15 1:21:56

Bender, smell this milk. I go not by the name of Bender, you fleshy fool. I am titanius Anglesmith, Fenty Man of Cornwood!

SPEAKER_13 1:22:08

Professor, something's bothering me. You can always talk to me about anything, Fry. What's on your mind? Well, it's it's about my friend Bender. Mmm, I see. It's just that I'm worried about him. He's been playing an awful lot of Dungeons and Dragons. Dungeons and Good God! Hasn't he seen the after school special? You've got to talk to him, Fry. Make him quit now before he completely loses his mind. Okay, I will. Good boy. Bender, please don't get mad, but I think you might be playing too much Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_15 1:22:48

You're absolutely right, Fry. I almost went insane. But after this heart-to-heart talk, I decided to quit. Really? That's a load off my toad. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off this lady werewolf of Goblin Mountain. I cast upon me and I still have a fucking bomb.

SPEAKER_13 1:23:17

Be all the spontaneous. I cast a freeze ray upon you.

SPEAKER_15 1:23:22

That's ridiculous. There's no such thing as a freeze ray. What you mean a cone of coldness? Yeah, that. No, no, fancy men are defenseless against cone of coldness. I'm freezing. Bender!

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SPEAKER_13 1:23:40

No! When will young people learn that dungeons and dragons won't make you cool?

SPEAKER_05 1:23:47

Yeah. So so he just completely loses his shit. And uh he ends up going into a psychiatric ward where they're trying to, you know, help him with his sanity.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:58

I mean, that's an apart for Bender.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:00

I fucking love it. It would it Futurama was my jam back in the day, obviously, because Simpsons was so popular. And then Matt Granin goes and makes Futurama, so love it. It was uh stupendous, and it just as soon as you said let's do Dungeons and Dragons, I thought of Bender's game.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:17

One of the first uh cartoons that ever made me cry.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:20

Aww.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:22

And his dog was waiting for him.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:23

Oh, son of a bit. Yeah, that was so sad. And I guess there's uh a Japanese movie, I think it's called Tochi. Something like that. And uh me and Brian have talked about it on a previous episode where there was originally the Japanese story, and then the United States made their own version, and they recast the main character uh instead to be Richard Gere, which you know he doesn't look Chinese or or Japanese, whichever area that movie's from. But yeah, so they they remade it, but that's the same story where the the dog waited at that bus stop every day until he died, waiting for his master to come back. So awful fucking made me cry, that's for sure. Alright, so to continue, 2014, the fifth edition is released. Do you have anything special about fifth edition?

SPEAKER_07 1:25:20

I I love fifth edition because it's easier to explain to new players. Like uh if you took someone that's never played and you try to teach them third edition, there's a lot of numbers and a lot of like crunchy mechanics that are hard to get a grasp of. Like in 3.5, if you were a wizard, if you were casting a spell and wearing a certain type of armor, you had like a 25% chance that spell would fake. I don't know why, I can't remember. Um critical hits. In 3.5, you had to confirm your critical hit. Like if you rolled a 20, confirm the crit by rolling another attack and hitting, you do maximum damage, like double damage. But if you didn't confirm the crit, it's just a regular hit. Whereas in fifth edition, if I roll a natural 20 on an attack roll, it's an automatic critical hit. Fifth edition is it's much more streamlined, user-friendly, and uh easier to get a grasp of.

audiio clip

SPEAKER_05 1:26:30

Like I said, with a uh the way that a movie and a and a book edition comes out, they're it's like it's like they're tied together. You know, 2000, you've got Dungeons and Dragons and the third edition. 2008, you've got the fourth edition and Futurama. 2014, when the fifth edition comes out, they also have this Nickelodeon TV show, TMNT, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, doing its thing at the same time. But in 2014, they did a mazes and mutants episode. Yep. And it's almost like the way that Dungeons and Dragons entertainment works is that they're trying to push something into you know the youthful like cartoons, like I said, like they're putting a cartoon out to get kids interested in Dungeons and Dragons to time along with the release of an edition of Dungeons and Dragons. Yep. So I've got this audio clip from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles doing mazes and mutants, and that's because of the you know, mazes and monsters book that came out. So I thought that was, you know, a fun little callback that unless you're a big DD fan, you're not gonna understand what's the reason for the title of that episode, but mazes and mutants.

SPEAKER_09 1:27:48

No, you can't! No, no, no, no. My plus one Of awesome didn't save me. Avenge me. Avenge the beloved elf.

SPEAKER_16 1:28:07

Relax, Mikey. Your elf is fine. For now. But suddenly, your party is attacked by evil, vicious monkey goblins! Huh? You have to roll a two or higher to avoid being bitten.

SPEAKER_17 1:28:29

Twenty! One! Critical fail, dude! The monkey goblin bites! Raph loses! Eleven hit points! Eleven! Give me that! I'm gonna use my magic sword plus three to strike!

SPEAKER_16 1:28:50

What is all of this? It's called mazes and mutants. We found it in the trash up top. A game?

SPEAKER_36 1:28:57

Don't you have mutagen to find?

SPEAKER_14 1:28:59

But sensei, we just beat the Krang and Shredder's forces. We could use just one day to relax.

SPEAKER_36 1:29:07

I cannot understand why you play a fantasy game when your lives are already fantastic.

SPEAKER_09 1:29:12

Me next! Everyone's favorite elf wants to attack goblins too. Oh yeah! Plus one ring of awesome!

SPEAKER_36 1:29:22

Something is not right here.

SPEAKER_26 1:29:30

Excellent, my fellow anthropomorphized animals.

SPEAKER_16 1:29:34

Play to thine heart's content, for thy true game is about to begineth.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:43

So yeah, it it just seems like they're trying to promote Dungeons and Dragons through cartoons to tie it in with the release of certain books. Yep. So now we're hitting 2015 in this timeline that I've got written down here. And this is where you are talking about uh Matt Mercer and Brennan Lee Mulligan. So DD production company, Critical Role, is formed and is growing popularity of Dungeons and Dragons through podcasts and YouTube. Yep. So now Critical Role, they're the same people that did The Mighty Nine, uh Legend of the Fox Machina, and they do live stream their Dungeons and Dragons sessions, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:30:30

They do. And that's where those uh animated shows came from. Legend of Fox Machina is from their first campaign, which they started playing in Matthew Mercer's living room.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:40

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:41

And they ended up making money on the stream, and so they were able to build a studio and a big gigantic gaming table, and that's what set forth like the boom in popularity was that. Because these guys were all famous voice actors. Um What's her name? Ashley Johnson was the voice of Ellie in The Last of Us. Sure. Um, and they've all done extensive voice work, like two or three of them have done voices on Dragon Balls and um and multiple other video games and TV shows.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:14

So it wasn't necessarily that they were a friend group that got together to do this. It was hey, we've got the studio, hey, let's bring in voice actors.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:23

No, it was it started as a home game, like just friends playing at home. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:28

It just so happened that they were also voice actors.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:31

Yes. That's uh they they start off every episode, hey, welcome to Critical World, where a bunch of nerdy ass voice actors sit around and play Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:41

Cute.

audio clip

SPEAKER_07 1:31:42

And them being voice actors lends so much depth to the game because they get so into character, and uh Matthew Mercer being a DM, his his vocal range is insane, and he can portray multiple different characters at a time. Poor guided wanderers.

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SPEAKER_11 1:32:03

First, there were many and out of must value for dark places such as keep them so and the other players, the other voice actors, all do the same as well.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:44

And it's just the immersive experience that you know how how Mercer describes his game and like the world because he created that entire world.

SPEAKER_27 1:33:01

Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:02

Yeah, and they took a game that we all love and adore and made it uh more pop culture thick.

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SPEAKER_05 1:33:11

I can see that. So to continue along, um, 2015 was when uh Critical Role becomes popular, but then in 2016 is when you get your first season of uh Stranger Things. Now have you seen all of Stranger Things? Some of it, none of it, no? I've seen bits and pieces. Okay. Kids demi Gorgon. But upside down. I did end up watching the entire show because Brennan, my oldest, really liked it, so we kind of binge-watched it together. There is one scene that I've got, very short, it's season three. The character Eddie, he's the leader of the Hellfire Club. Okay, I noticed in one of the episodes they had bad, you know, the the bothered about Dungeons and Dragons in the background because they think that Eddie murdered somebody. But realistic realistically, it was the Demi Gorgon that did it, but parents don't know about this shit yet. So they're saying Dungeons and Dragons, they Eddie's the one that killed him. They're on a manhunt for Eddie because of it. But there is a scene of Eddie with the Hellfire Club, you know, the the guys that play Dungeons and Dragons, and he's talking about the different classes in school, like you've got your jocks, your partiers, and stuff. So I thought this was a nice, I don't know. It it just whatever, you'll see. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:34:47

We're the freaks because we like to play a fantasy game. As long as you're in Japan. You must have to freak. It's forced conformity.

SPEAKER_10 1:35:17

That's what's that's the real monster.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:29

So they're saying, like, it's not us that's the problem. It's not Dungeons and Dragons that's the problem. It's the conformity of the groups, the clicks that's killing the kids.

unknown 1:35:39

Yep.

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SPEAKER_05 1:35:40

So here we go. They got five seasons, fifth one just came out, and now they've got a freaking cartoon about it, but whatever. Next up, we got 2018, Dimension 20. Live DD starts posting online, and that's where the Brett and Lee Mulligan comes in. So you had given me a thing that you wanted me to play to show off Brennan's skills.

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SPEAKER_03 1:36:02

Brennan, a Dom DM. Get on your knees. So you got a three. Um, okay, so you try to get on your knees. Um and you get really close and you sort of stumble at the last minute. But actually, give me a uh give me a performance check to see if you can recover. One. You open your mouth like a good little girl. Uh and actually, uh, I want you to give me a constitution save so you can resist the uh the little whips and chains. You that's right, you do have three levels of exhaustion, so you will be rolling with disadvantage. Um, you only take, yeah, you take two points of damage, and it feels you had two hit points left. Banana, banana, banana, banana. I like that a lot, Brennan. Wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:56

Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:58

Oh, man. There's so many people that probably won't uh understand Dungeons of Dragons when they hear this episode, and they will think that's the weirdest thing ever. Right. Alright, so I've got two last things that come up in the timeline here that I've written down, and it's 2023's Dungeons of Dragons, Honor Among Thieves, hit 91% on Rotten Tomatoes. Like it's very popular. And then I I mean, I I do love the movie. It feels weird not talking about it much, but uh that's fine. We we don't need to talk about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:30

Oh, it's a great movie, man.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:31

I think Chris Pine as the Bard is fantastic because he's got so much charisma. Uh and then 2024, the fifth edition is re-released for the 50th anniversary of Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:44

Yep. Which all they really did with that game-wise, is they uh uh in the game, it's no they're no longer called races, they're called species. So like elf, dwarf, human, all the myriad other what used to be called races are called species now. Uh and they changed a couple of the game mechanics, but nothing too crazy.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:05

Okay. More or less if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:10

Just they added some stuff to make I think they make the game a little more fun to newcomers. Okay. But uh the hardcore is like most of the games I play are still under the 2014 rules. So now And I think that's because the DMs don't really care to learn all the new stuff just yet. There's so much to learn.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:28

Yeah. So now, one thing that Mandy, my wife, had brought up was can't remember what the game is called, but there are there are so many AI-generated games that you can play where you're creating the story and you don't necessarily have to play with a bunch of people. You could just play you in a computer and like storytell that way. There's another one where it's almost like a Discord group, and in your Discord world of darkness, I think is what it's called, you can basically have your chat group on Discord doing Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:02

So is there something that's beneficial in that world, or it's not really Dungeons and Dragons, it's just kind of like uh an offshoot of Dungeons and Dragons?

SPEAKER_07 1:39:11

No, it it is, but uh Discord, like I I use Discord, I play there's a game I play on every other Friday night with friends that are all across the country. And we all get on Discord to use Discord just for voice chat.

unknown 1:39:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:25

We use this website called Roll20. Uh and basically the person running the game buys like the map packs and the different books and stuff, and the people playing can create their characters and play like an online game. But it's like being a tabletop because you have that that combat map or the battle map in front of you on this computer screen, and you can move your character around and still do all your stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:49

So do you think that is helping or hindering Dungeons and Dragons?

SPEAKER_07 1:39:54

I think it helps because uh one of the big problems, like I said, is scheduling. And you get people that really, you know, they can't find a babysitter or something like that. They don't need one this way. You can still play the same game, you know, tell the same story. Just everybody's at a computer.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:14

Doesn't hinder like the camaraderie of playing in person.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:18

Oh no, because they're still shit talking, either way.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:21

Okay, okay. That's what really makes the game is is shit talking.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:26

The shit talking and it's the the fun you have playing with your friends. And this way you don't all need to be in the same state or the same area here.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:34

This makes me excited because I can't wait to try to play a game of Dungeons and Dragons with you as our DM. We'll get it. Oh, I will I will make it fun. Turned it into a podcast episode with Brian and just a bunch of uh DD virgins. Oh man. So okay, so I honestly don't have a whole lot left. I've I'm pretty much spent. Is there anything more that you want to talk about? Um talk about with like uh Brennan or Matthew or Critical Role, something you want to talk about with the shows. I know uh Mighty Nine you said was just your favorite.

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SPEAKER_07 1:41:13

Mighty Nine's my favorite campaign, but I will uh if I can be vulnerable for a second. Critical role saved my life. Oh. Like in 2021, like the midst of the COVID shit, like just life was sucking, and I was gonna, you know, eat a pistol.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:32

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:33

But uh I went on a road trip to go like say my goodbyes without actually saying my goodbyes, you know, like seeing all my friends for the last time.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:43

And so on a road trip as you do, you asked for suggestions for podcasts or music. And one of my friends suggested Critical Role. It was the summer before the third campaign started. They were doing like an intro to the third campaign, and I listened to that. And the more I listen to the more I'm like, fuck, I can't I gotta know how the story is. I I can't I I gotta fucking find out how this turns out.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:11

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:12

And I s so I at that point, like, maybe I'll wait, maybe I'll do it, you know. And then when I was getting ready to, you know, plan it again, they came out and announced the third season, like, well fuck, now it's good, I really gotta stay around for this. And you know, aside from all my friends and family and stuff, because you know, the obvious, but to me, Critical Role, like gave me a reason to fucking stick around.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:37

That's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:39

And that was five years ago, and I haven't really thought about suicide since. Because even with having watched all the campaigns, there's just so much to watch. And each episode is anywhere from two to eight hours. But yeah, I just critical roles save my life. This last March, uh the march actually, no, March of 25, I went to a con in Virginia to meet two of the cast members. And I started bawling when I met both of them. And I told them I was like, You guys uh saved my life. And the the lady and her husband lady's tr uh Laura Bailey and her husband's Travis Willingham, they're both obviously cast members. But uh she started crying. And she's like, it it means a lot to us that you know our content can like do this for people. So every chance I get, I try to tell people, hey man, critical role, man, critical role. That's like my hyperfixation. A way to get people into that is little segue into the animated series. And fun fact, when they're doing a lot of cool shit in the series, that's when they're the table rolling really well. When it shifts her down and getting their asses beat, that's when they're rolling like shit. So you can kind of watch like from a gamer's perspective. Okay. Uh he just decavitated this bad guy, he just rolled a natural 20. Or if Grog is getting beat down by Earthbreaker Groom, like, he's rolling like shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:06

And every good story kind of has to have a little bit of everything.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:10

Oh yeah. You you can't the like we were talking about with the the dice fudging, the roll fudging, like you can't be doing cool shit all the time because that doesn't tell a fun story.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:19

The highs are only as high as they go because of the lows that you've had. Absolutely. Man, that was that is a phenomenal way to end the episode. That's that is so wonderful. I'm so happy for you. Everything you've gone through, that you've been able to come out of it stronger and have something like this that's so powerful and impactful.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:41

And I'm I'm glad to be able to tell my story.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:45

I appreciate that. I am God, you almost got me tearing up. Thank you, Dick. So, um yeah, I I really appreciate your time, Sean. Uh unfortunately having me. I'm this was this was a fun. This was so much fun. I'm I will play Dungeons and Dragons only if you're my DM. This was terrific.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:10

So I will I I am planning a trip towards uh the end of this year, early next year, up to Minnesota.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:17

Fucking right. Alright, so I'm going to end the episode. Thank you so much for being here, Sean. And with all that and with all that shit said, Loafers out.

SPEAKER_18 1:45:57

Purple crumb will be in the crab that I'm willing. Don't have to do it, let's do the man's gun.

SPEAKER_28 1:49:04

The moral panic was mostly laughable. The idea that there were people who were fundamentalist Christians for whom Dungeons and Dragons represented some kind of existential threat to my soul was silly.

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SPEAKER_29 1:49:16

Over time, the Dungeons and Dragons controversy lost steam. And today, the common thread between DD players is less likely to include any reported links to violence and more likely to involve Emmy Awards and literary prizes. The American Academy of Pediatrics says that in this media-saturated age, it's important for kids to use their imaginations in free play. And in a twist, the role playing games that set off a moral panic in the past may look more like a solution than a problem to today's parents.

SPEAKER_38 1:49:57

It's just nice to spend. I spend a lot of time thinking, imagining, in a group, collaborating. Imagination is a good thing, man. Very powerful.