El Salvador’s Dual Citizenship Secrets For Bitcoin Maxis (2026 Second Passport Guide) | Alex Recouso

If Bitcoin is the ultimate opt-out, why can a single border guard still ruin your whole plan?

Mike Peterson sits down with Alex Recouso to get into dual citizenship, second citizenship, and global mobility from a Bitcoin maxi point of view. Alex explains why 2020 was the moment the lesson clicked. Bitcoin gives you permissionless money, but your body still moves through checkpoints, visas, and policies that can change fast. That is where geopolitical risk stops being background noise and becomes a daily constraint.

Alex breaks down Flag Theory in a way that fits how Bitcoiners think, treating your passport, tax residency, companies, and assets like separate flags. You place them in jurisdictions that protect your freedom, lower your dependency, and expand your options. It is the same mindset as self-custody, applied to citizenship and mobility.

Then they go deep on citizenship by investment, including what countries ask for, how KYC and source of funds get tricky when your wealth is on-chain, and why some jurisdictions make Bitcoiners jump through extra hoops. If you have ever tried to explain to a bank that your “paystub” is a UTXO history, this part will feel familiar.

They close by comparing the El Salvador passport (Freedom Passport) with other second citizenship paths like São Tomé and Príncipe and Saint Kitts and Nevis. The conversation covers cost, speed, scrutiny, embassy biometrics, and what you are buying when you pay more, time, access, or a country that shares your values.
Subscribe, share, and comment, and if you have ever been hit with a surprise visa rule at the airport, drop it below so Mike can add it to his collection.

-Bitcoin Beach Team

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Browse through this quick guide to learn more about the episode:
00:00 Intro
02:00 Why do Bitcoiners want a second passport for global mobility?
08:30 How does citizenship by investment work if your wealth is in Bitcoin?
13:05 Why is the US passport getting weaker? Why do Americans need a Brazil visa now?
21:35 What is the best second citizenship for Bitcoiners, El Salvador, São Tomé, or Saint Kitts?
24:51 How much does São Tomé citizenship by investment cost, and can you pay with Bitcoin?
28:49 How fast is the El Salvador Freedom Passport?
31:15 Why is El Salvador citizenship by investment simpler than Caribbean passport programs?
40:47 Why do Bitcoiners avoid Portugal Golden Visas? What is the EU tax risk?
46:18 Why do Bitcoiners choose Dubai? Is UAE residency a good Plan B base?

Live From Bitcoin Beach

Transcript

Alex Recouso: 0:00

Yeah, but in 2020 I really understood it when I saw basically countries restricting the mobility of their people, and suddenly, you know, you could not leave your country. And this was unthinkable, you know, for me, growing up in a Western country like Spain, then I went to college in the US later on, but it was, it was like a wake up call. I understood Bitcoin. I understood that it was basically permissionless capital that allows you to move your money freely around the world without depending on any countries, without depending on any banks. And it was freedom, right? So, so back then, I kind of, you know, tied the two pieces that this, you know, the flag theory and Bitcoin. And I realized that no matter you know how wealthy you are, no matter if you're self casting your Bitcoin, you're still limited by your body, by the physical world, and by countries that have weapons and forced borders. So if they don't want to let you leave, no matter if you can move your money and your money can leave, you cannot. So that's when I realized that, you know, your passport is probably, you know, I like to say that Bitcoin is king, but passport is queen. You

Intro: 1:20

you

Mike Peterson: 1:45

Oh, Alex, I think this is the first time I've seen you in El Salvador, right? Did we have we talked in El Salvador before?

Alex Recouso: 1:52

I think it's the first time we see each other, because we met in Paraguay, right? Last year in Paraguay, in Abu Dhabi, were you in

Mike Peterson: 2:00

Lugano too. Or, yeah, that's right, yeah. So I've seen you every several other places, but it's the first time we've actually been able to sit down in El Salvador. So this is super cool. You are one of the people out there helping you know, people put together a plan B as far as passports go. So would love to kind of hear how you got into that business. I remember you shared a little bit with me, and in Paraguay, it was, it wasn't really what you had planned, I think, when you were in university. So we'd love to you to share with the audience how that kind of came about. And then we'll, we'll delve into this industry that I think a lot of Bitcoiners are very interested in, because they are looking for a backup plan if they have to leave the US or Europe or wherever they're from. Some, some Bitcoiners are coming from places where they have a fairly weak passport that doesn't allow them to travel. So they're looking for something that gives them more travel opportunities. Others come from, you know, traditionally strong passports that they're kind of fearful that are heading the wrong direction, and so they want something in a country they think is kind of on the upswing. So give us, give us a little bit of your personal history.

Alex Recouso: 3:14

Of course, thank you for having me, Mike. I'm super excited to be in Bitcoin country, in Bitcoin beach. It's not my first time here. I have spent significant time during the last couple of years, especially this last 2025 here in El Salvador. I love it. I will probably spend more time here in 2026 we can talk about that later as well. And to give a bit more context about what I do at Citizen X, I'm one of the founders and the CEO. We help people diversify their passport portfolio with citizenship by investment, citizenship by descent. Programs help them. Basically acquired Plan B passport. We also acquired in 2025 Plan B passport. Katie, the Russian Katie Anania is now our CMO. We can also talk about that later, but basically, we help people diversify their passport portfolio as a Plan B, to protect, to increase their opportunities. And we also help countries like El Salvador fundraise by issuing citizenship. And especially in the case of El Salvador, it's one of my favorite programs, because I don't know, it's kind of this, this meme, I'm doing my part right, and my part in helping El Salvador is helping the country attract high net worth individuals, attract Bitcoiners that want to contribute with the freedom passport program and want to become citizens here. So yeah, and how I got into all of these when, when I was 14 years old, I discovered flag theory that is this thesis, this theory that says that you should set up your flags in different countries to maximize your freedom, and your flags are simply your passport, your tax residency, your companies, your assets, your Bitcoin and where you place, all. These flags is very important to maximize your freedom, and you should basically choose each jurisdiction that suits bets best for for each of your flags.

Mike Peterson: 5:10

When you were 14, you were thinking about this,

Alex Recouso: 5:12

yeah, I found about these by randomness. You know, I was, I was just curious. I was learning about, mostly like finance and all of this. And I stumbled upon this thesis, this category, and it was, you know, really cool. I would say by then, it was not what it is today, mostly because it was missing one of the two of the key pieces that are, in my opinion, remote, you know, remote work and a remote world where people can basically earn their money regardless of their location. And the second one was, money was, was Bitcoin. You know, Bitcoin was not so big back back then. So I would say people were much less freer. And still, you know, people were already thinking all these things about where to set up their tax residency, where to set up their companies, where to get citizenship to maximize their freedom. But I would say that, you know, with these two missing pieces that are basically a remote world, or remote, remote first world and Bitcoin, it unlocked flag theory for for many people. So I discovered Bitcoin in 2017 2018 I was 1718, years old. Back then, I didn't fully understand it. I would say I got interested in it because of, you know, all the people talking about it, the speculation, all of that. But in 2020, I really understood it when I saw basically countries restricting the mobility of their people, and suddenly, you know, you could not leave your country. And this was unthinkable, you know, for me, growing up in a Western country, like, like Spain, then I went to college in the US later on, but it was, it was like a wake up call. I understood Bitcoin. I understood that it was basically permissionless capital that allows you to move your money freely around the world without depending on any countries, without depending on any banks. And it was freedom, right? So, so back then, I kind of, you know, tied the two pieces, that is, you know, the flag theory and Bitcoin. And I realized that no matter you know how wealthy you are, no matter if you're self casting your Bitcoin, you're still limited by your body, by the physical world, and by countries that have weapons and forced borders. So if they don't want to let you leave, no matter if you can move your money and your money can leave, you cannot. So that's when I realized that, you know, your passport is probably, you know, I like to say that Bitcoin is king, but passport is queen, right? So, so I realized those, those those things. And in 2021 I decided to start Citizen X. By then, you know, we had a different name. We pivoted a bit, but basically I realized that, you know, there should be an easier way to diversify your passport portfolio and to invest in citizenship. Get a second passport a third one, in the same way, you know, other platforms made it easier for you to buy bitcoin. For example, I wanted to make a, you know, secure, private platform for people to to invest in citizenship.

Mike Peterson: 8:30

So how do you go about getting into that business? Like, how does that play out? I can understand, like, thinking it's a great idea, but how do you actually go through the steps? What were the first countries that you you worked with? Just kind of curious as to, how do you get somebody to trust you when you've never done it and you're like, getting your first one, just kind of curious as to how that played out for you?

Alex Recouso: 8:55

Yeah, of course. The good thing is that countries have been selling citizenship for decades. The first modern citizenship by investment program was sankit San Nevis in 1984 chadwal island country in the Caribbean, and they started offering citizenship by investment to people who were making an investment in the country or making a donation to the country. So these are, you know, legal processes that are basically legislation that countries have been doing for for decades. And the missing piece was really, you know, making it transparent, secure, accessible. So all of those things I saw that, you know, they could be done with technology to a certain extent. So basically, how I started was I started offering the programs that already existed, right, and trying to drive demand to those countries that were already offering citizenship by investment, similar to the same way that Katie was, was doing it right. She was basically offering the countries that already have these sort of programs, and trying to make it, you know, easier and more appealing for Bitcoiners, trying, for example. When it comes to the source of funds, to make it as simple as possible for for Bitcoiners, to show that, you know they are, they have their wealth in in Bitcoin and doing also that work of times,

Mike Peterson: 10:11

they want it in a bank account. They want the countries exactly, educate

Alex Recouso: 10:15

them exactly. So trying to educate the countries in, you know how Bitcoiners operate. And then, you know, with the demand, you also get some some leverage to try to make them understand these things. And then the really cool thing is, you know, new new countries developing Bitcoin native programs like like El Salvador, in which Katie has, has played a big role. But essentially, you know, all beginnings are difficult. I was very fortunate to have, you know, great co founder, like like Louise, who was already doing things in the in the space. And then, you know, having investors like Balaji, like like Tim Draper, who also gave us, you know, that, that initial trust to start with. And yeah, I mean,

Mike Peterson: 11:00

they were early investors. Yes, awesome. I didn't know that.

Alex Recouso: 11:04

So, I mean, I would say that that helped a lot, and I was very fortunate to, you know, have a great team from from the beginning. But yeah, I mean, all beginnings are difficult. In some ways it only gets, you know, more difficult with time, but in other ways, either it's either it's easier. And, you know, I think right now, especially since acquiring Plan B passport, we are the number one in the in the Bitcoin citizenship space. So that's, that's pretty, pretty cool.

Mike Peterson: 11:33

Okay, yeah, so I think a lot of people in the Bitcoin space know, does she still go by Katie, the Russian I think she maybe changed her.

Alex Recouso: 11:42

That's That's funny, because after the acquisition, we realized that at Citizen X we had a bit more broad audience. I would say she was laser focused on Bitcoiners and Bitcoin citizenship. And since she was going to be our CMO at Citizen X. And we, you know, one of our key values is neutrality, yeah. So, you know, we can help a bitcoiner, but we can also help a Fiat person, right? And we want to basically help as many people as possible diversify their passport portfolio. So since we work with, you know, such a different spectrum of people and, you know, as well on the political axis, yeah, you know. So I think that was one of the main drivers to transition a bit from Katie, the Russian, to Katie and Anina. But she can probably talk about that

Mike Peterson: 12:36

more extensively, yeah, yeah. No. I mean, it makes sense. And with with everything going on Ukraine and all that, I'm sure it's become a sensitive issue for some people, so, but it's hard when you've built your name on something.

Alex Recouso: 12:49

It's really funny because half our team is Russian. We have half half of the team is Russian speaking. Half of the team is Russian.

Mike Peterson: 12:59

So it's well, they understand the need for a second passport, especially these days, when it's very difficult to travel on a Russian passport.

Alex Recouso: 13:05

So, yeah, I mean, that was also one of the, one of the key things, you know, post 2020, that many countries that traditionally had strong passports. You know, you could call them first world countries. Saw how their passports started becoming weaker. You know, the prime example is Russia, where suddenly, 111, morning, you wake up and you cannot access half of the world. You cannot access financial services, and you realize you know how limited you are by your passport. But another example that I think it's not so often discussed, is the US, the US. Passport has been getting worse since 2020. Just this year, you know US passport holders lost Vista free access to things like six or seven places, Brazil, for example.

Mike Peterson: 13:54

Well, I have firsthand experience with that, because I showed up in Brazil before the conference in Paraguay, and I don't know how the airport, you know, I just assume, because I've gone to Brazil in the past, and we never needed any type of visa. So I showed up, the airline didn't ask me anything, and I arrived, and I go to the counter, hand on my passport, and she's like, where's your visa? I don't need a visa, American passport. She's like, No, you need a visa. How did you get on the airplane? And long story short, I wound up stuck in the airport, kind of quarantined. There. They had me, like guarded. They they have like a little hotel there that I had, I was able to rent a room in, but they had, like a guard at the door that I could not leave, and after like 36 hours, I was finally able to get out and go to Paraguay, but I did not realize that I needed a visa now for Brazil. So definitely, I know you can't go to Venezuela, you can't go to Russia. I don't know if, technically, maybe you can still go to Russia.

Alex Recouso: 14:58

But Juliana. Visa. You need to apply for a visa. Same for China, India.

Mike Peterson: 15:03

But, I mean, I know even for for like Venezuela, you can't go at all. And so, yeah, it's, it's definitely feels like the US passports getting weaker, yeah.

Alex Recouso: 15:15

And what's interesting, I would say, is that the COPE I hear from, most Americans is that, why do I care about Burkina Faso? Right? I'm not gonna go on vacation to Burkina Faso, but I think, you know, people are usually, they get tied in the specifics and they don't see the trend. Yeah. So this specific is that, yeah, euros visa for us to Burkina Faso. You probably don't care about that, but the trend is that the US is isolating more and more, and the political decisions are affecting you as a citizen, and they are basically restricting your freedom, restricting your mobility, restricting your optionality. So that's why you know thinking about these things in the same way you maybe diversify your real estate holdings and buy real estate somewhere else, the same way you opt out with with Bitcoin because you don't trust the fiat system. Well, maybe you should think about opting out with with a plan B password.

Mike Peterson: 16:09

So what was it that brought about the the acquisition of plan B and bringing Katie on? And is, are you seeing? Is there kind of general consolidation in the industry, or just was you guys were kind of aligned, and, you know, knew, knew each other, and felt like it would be good synergies to bring the two companies together. Or how did that come about? I mean, we

Alex Recouso: 16:30

were super aligned from the beginning, even if we were, you know, close competitors, you could say, even though the approach that we take is a bit different, because, you know, we're a tech company and all of that, but I met Katie in Nashville at the Bitcoin Conference. We had a panel together, and we quickly realized that that we talked the same language, you know, especially when compared to traditional consultancies that have been, you know, helping with citizenship by investment programs for decades, I thought she had, she had the same point of view as we had. She saw the things the same way we saw it. And basically, we're fortunate enough to have some resources to have raised, you know, some, some capital from our angels, and we decided that it was the best to unite forces. We had the same vision of where we wanted to take both companies. And we thought that, you know, under the Citizen X brand, we could do it, I think, you know, for the rest of 2025 since the acquisition in April, since Katie came on board, we proved it right. We basically captured the Bitcoin citizenship space. And we have been advising countries like like El Salvador and some others on how to basically raise Bitcoin by issuing citizenship. So that's what, what we want to continue doing. And I think, you know, we were super aligned. She had built a great team, you know, not just Katie. I always talk a lot about Katie, but we had, she had a great team, you know, with, with people like Dasha, like Nadine, like shantanya, who have been, you know, helping us since, since then that are still in our team. They are more, you know, behind the curtain and helping, you know, private clients with the processes and all of that, and Katie's more the face. But you know, we're super fortunate to have them on board as well.

Mike Peterson: 18:38

Are you seeing? I'm curious what the general industries like is your other competitors out there? Is there something that's that sets you guys apart, is kind of unique? And are you seeing in the general space? Is there consolidation, or is that not really a thing? It's, it's more just a bunch of clothes, you know, kind of small shops?

Alex Recouso: 18:59

Yeah, I would say the industry is most it's mostly brick and mortar, you know, traditional providers, mostly consultancies, law firms. There are some, you know, small consultancies, mostly like led by content creators. You know that people probably know about from YouTube, Twitter and whatnot. And I think those are doing a great job, because they have a bit more of a fresh point of view about, you know, how these things can enable people to have more more freedom, and they share a bit of our of our ethos. I think just because of our resources and scale, we are able to, you know, get involved in things that that also help advance the industry, like, you know, advising nation states like like El Salvador and others, or how to how to implement these programs. But I think, you know, in terms of a technology company, we. We, we are the ones. I think there are, you know, two or three other players that have entered the market after us, and that are trying to to sort of have the same approach. And I welcome them. I think it's great, because I think that's the direction that the industry, industry should take. You know, the same way with, I don't know crypto exchanges. You know, Bitcoin exchanges that allow you to buy bitcoin in a more secure, transparent way. So I think this, this, this industry also needs that, you know, because otherwise you end up trapped in, you know, basically, a brick and mortar experience similar to what you had, you know, back in the day when you need to move yourself to an office or, you know, find a lot of paperwork and stuff like that. And I think, you know, with encryption, with other technologies, you can make it, you know, more of a modern experience and and also, you know, you can basically build the product that Bitcoiners deserve when, when they want to diversify their passport portfolio.

Mike Peterson: 21:01

So I'd be curious to get, like, a top five list from you of countries that you you guys are seeing is as kind of up and coming and you're starting to push clients to, and then maybe a list of of three that you know, you guys used to send a lot of people to but now you feel like you know, or you're kind of shying away from because either their their programs gotten more stringent or costly, or you just their their passports have become less valuable.

Alex Recouso: 21:35

I would say the best three countries for Bitcoiners to add a Plan B passport are, first, El Salvador, I think that's the top one. Second, saltoman principle and third, San kits and Nevis. And I can break break down those those three, starting with the last one, San kits and Nevis, like I said, has been the longest running citizenship by investment program. I think it's still quite a solid option that has some unknowns in

Mike Peterson: 22:09

terms they recently lose access to the EU or it is

Alex Recouso: 22:13

being discussed, and in my opinion, that will happen. So basically, the program right now, it's around$300,000 in a donation to some kids and Nevis, and you're paying that premium to have visa free access to the European Union. In my opinion, they will eventually lose it. They recently announced that they are transitioning the program into more of a residency program, where you would need to actually move to some kids and Nevis spend some time there. All of the citizenship programs that that we offer have no presence requirements or very, very low presence requirements. So you can do them from anywhere in the world. You need to move to the country. That's going to change in some kids and Nevis. And I think even with those changes, they will not be able to keep visa free access to the EU because it's basically a politically motivated decision. It's not a rational decision. They claim security issues, but it is not a security issue for the EU. They have the front door open and they care about the back door with people from countries that don't have visa free access to the EU, like places in Africa, India, Pakistan, China, getting a second passport from a country that has visa free access to the EU. But that's sort of, you know, not really, what's happening in terms of the security issues in the EU. The security issues you know, are others, but yeah, I think, long story short, they will probably lose visa free access to to the EU. So you are paying that premium for something that most likely will not happen, and that will that most likely you will not be able to keep and also, another thing that is to be considered is that Caribbean programs in general, and sankits and Nevis as well as one of those five Caribbean programs, have a lot of scrutiny from both the European Union and the US. So that's, you know, something to be considered, because you are sort of, you know, going to experience more more scrutiny when dealing with financial institutions, things like that. That is a bitcoiner You might not care so much about. But still, I think you know, if you can get something that is a bit more under the radar or that has a better reputation, it's much better. Which take me takes me to the second one that is south of main, principal island country,

Mike Peterson: 24:45

which probably most people have never even heard of before. So give us a little bit of context of even where that is.

Alex Recouso: 24:51

Yeah, it's a dual island country off the coast of West Africa. It's the smallest country in Africa. I. And they started their program in 2025 last year. It's quite a recent program. It doesn't even have, you know, it has, hasn't been running for for more than one year even. But I think it's doing things in a really great way right now. It's one of the fastest programs. It's almost as fast as El Salvador, and you can do it with Bitcoin entirely. So you can Yes, yes. So that's one of the great things. And also it's the cheapest program available. You know, it requires a donation of $90,000 to the Government of South Tommy,

Mike Peterson: 25:33

so little less than one Bitcoin, exactly. So

Alex Recouso: 25:37

I think, you know, considering everything, it's a great option.

Mike Peterson: 25:41

Is that for an individual, or is that for a family? That's for an

Alex Recouso: 25:45

individual, and you can include your family by paying some extra government fees you don't have to pay. You know, if you include your spouse, it's, I think, $10,000 more. So it's total $110,000 instead of $105,000 or something like that. You can check everything on citizenx.com so yeah, we have all the costs there. But essentially, I think it's a great option as a Plan B passport, because it's the cheapest, it is one of the fastest, and yet the downside is that it's not a strong passport.

Mike Peterson: 26:17

How many countries does it have? Visa? 6161 61 one of the weakest passwords.

Alex Recouso: 26:23

It's not a strong passport. But also, what I like to, you know, ask people is, what countries do you care about? Because you can travel visa free, to El Salvador with a south on my passport. So if you want to, you know, maybe live in El Salvador, spend more time in El Salvador. You can do that with a salt on my passport. It also has an electronic visa to the UAE. So if you want to maybe live in Dubai, it's a great option or spend more time in in Dubai, has visa free access to Hong Kong, to Panama, to more issues that I know. Also has quite a big Bitcoin community there. So it depends about, you know, what countries you care about, not so much about the about the number, but still, you know, I would say the difference compared to a sankeet passport, for example, is the Schengen area. You know, with the Schengen area, you suddenly get a bump in number of countries that you can travel to. But the thing is, it costs three times less. So are you willing to pay, you know, three times more for a passport that has visa free access to the EU, especially considering that it will most likely lose it. I don't know, for some people, it's worth it. For others, it's not. But saltome, since it launched, it has been one of the most popular programs.

Mike Peterson: 27:35

And you had mentioned to me, if I'm remembering right, that there was an advantage if somebody was looking to try to get citizenship eventually in Portugal because of an agreement with formal former colonies. Or maybe you can explain,

Alex Recouso: 27:54

yes, South dome is part of the community of Portuguese language speaking countries, which means that you have some benefits in Portuguese speaking countries like Portugal, Brazil, Angola. So basically, for example, in Brazil, you cannot realize you can get Brazilian citizenship and a Brazilian passport in just one year instead of the regular three. So for some people, you know, that's also an advantage. You can get citizenship in saltome, and then you move to Brazil one year and you'll get citizenship there. So, you know, that's, that's one of the added from Portugal. For Portugal, they recently changed the law. Oh, they did, yes. So right now, it takes 10 years for you to get citizenship after you move there. If you are part of a country that is part of the community of Portuguese language speaking countries, it is seven. So, you know, you save three years with a Tommy pass, still

Mike Peterson: 28:45

a significant amount. Correct. Okay, correct.

Alex Recouso: 28:49

And then the first one is El Salvador. I think it's the best country for Bitcoiners to get citizenship. It is the fastest program I think we have over there, the total government processing time. Right now, we are expecting 45 days since you submit your application to El Salvador, until you get approved. So it is the fastest program out there.

Mike Peterson: 29:15

And once approved, how long to actually get your passport?

Alex Recouso: 29:19

As fast as you want to schedule an appointment, an appointment at the embassy, you need to visit an embassy to collect your biometrics and issue the passport. Right?

Mike Peterson: 29:27

Mike, is that, could you get it next week? Or you can

Alex Recouso: 29:31

get it? Yeah, same week, next week, it would take around four hours at the embassy, generally, to collect your biometrics and issue your passports. Right now El Salvador does that in Seville in Spain, in LA or here in El Salvador, they're probably opening up Guang in Dubai as well. We have been advising them to do that because it's also a popular region. Yeah. So, yeah.

Mike Peterson: 29:59

I. So, so for people that are getting the Salvadoran passport, they don't need to actually come to El Salvador, correct?

Alex Recouso: 30:07

Okay, that's, that's one of the key things about all these citizenship programs, is that they have no presence requirements, no visit requirements, or they're really, really low. In the case of El Salvador, you can do it fully online, remotely. The only thing is that to actually issue the passport, since it's a biometric passport, you need to visit an embassy or visit El Salvador to get that issued. And then also, you can do the program entirely with Bitcoin. The government accepts Bitcoin and usdt directly, so that's one of the good parts about it. And then in terms of the process, it is super streamlined, super efficient. You don't have to dox yourself so much as with other programs like, for example, in the Caribbean, the amount of information that they require is quite extensive, I would say, in my opinion, a bit too extensive, like

Mike Peterson: 31:04

I've heard people saying that sometimes can take years, you know, at least months, and that they have to hire private investigator to dig into their background, and that it can be quite interesting.

Alex Recouso: 31:15

It really depends. But you have, you know, even to do a medical examination, you need Polish certificates from all the countries where you have lived more than six months during the previous 10 years. So, you know, they really ask about a lot of information. The KYC, they know you're a citizen, it's quite extensive. I think del salary is much more efficient in that sense, they really know what to ask for. So they just ask for that, and it's much more of a of a simple process. So I would say that's, that's the main advantage. And then the the disadvantage, I would say, is the cost. Yeah, because it's $1 million donation,

Mike Peterson: 31:55

talking 10 times what

Alex Recouso: 31:58

the south domain, and three times Caribbean programs.

Mike Peterson: 32:02

So how? I'm curious as to how your clients, when you laid this out, what is it usually just depend on, you know, their their level of assets, or what is their reaction to, like the disparity in the costs.

Alex Recouso: 32:19

I would say that the ones who get surprised or that get disappointed by the cost are not the ones who El Salvador is seeking. So I think with this program, El Salvador is looking people who are looking to meaningfully contribute to the country El Salvador, also acknowledge the strength of the passport, with, with, with that cost. You know, I think El Salvador is one of the strongest passports you can get. Has visa free access to the shingling area, to Europe. And in my opinion, it's a strong one. It's almost strong rounds because of the relationship with Spain. So I think, you know, that's one of the of the key features. And then also, the strength of El Salvador passport has been improving the last years, especially since President bukele, has been improving the security in the country, the strength of the passport has been improving outside of the country like it was the 21st country to join the Global Entry Program in the US. So that means that after you obtain a US visa, you can visit the US and enjoy streamlined immigration. And only 21 countries have that in the world. So you know, the US

Mike Peterson: 33:38

will need a US visa, correct? But if you have the US visa, you can go through the Global Entry Program also, yes, you

Alex Recouso: 33:45

always need a US visa. Even with a European passport, you need to apply for the visa. Wave, yeah. So that's technically, you know, the same as or private. I mean,

Mike Peterson: 33:53

it's, it's a lot easier than if you're coming from El Salvador, yes, it is, it is, it is easier.

Alex Recouso: 33:58

But you don't have Global Entry like, for example, with my Spanish passport, I don't have low passport, I have global entry. I have to wait, you know, four hours in immigration every time. So, you know, that's, that's one of the of the nice things. And I think, you know, eventually the strongest of the passport will will catch up.

Mike Peterson: 34:13

Is, is Global Entry only for the US, or are there other countries that have

Alex Recouso: 34:18

it is for the US? Some other countries have different programs, global entries, specifically for the US, okay, but going back to the topic of cost, you know, I would say that people who understand the trajectory of El Salvador and that have obviously the capital available to do that, they're doing it, you know, and El Salvador has attracted over eight viewers in in foreign direct investment with with this program, I would say that, you know, it's a very specific type of person, the one who is, you know, doing this program, because many things have have to happen. You know, it's a small but passionate niche. I. Say, of people who are, you know, Bitcoiners. They love El Salvador. They love what President bukele is doing, plus they have the necessary capital to do the program. And I think those are, you know, it's a great fit for for those people. But then obviously, you know, you have some people that, even though they love El Salvador, maybe the best option for there is to actually move here. Yeah, because, you know, they don't have the spare capital to contribute, but they can contribute with their time, you know, with their work, and they can move here. Many people are doing that. And it's also, you know, a great option. And you know, after some years, you cannot realize you can become a citizen. And instead of paying with your capital, you're paying with your time and with your and with your effort?

Mike Peterson: 35:43

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. So there's a, there's a trade off in the ease and the time requirements versus the amount of funds that you have to let go of. Yeah.

Alex Recouso: 35:53

And then some people, you know, say, hey, I really don't want to commit 1 million to this. And Well, are you willing to provide so much more information and wait, you know, around one year in a Caribbean country. And also, you know, have more scrutiny on your passport, then that might be a good option. Or are you willing to take a weaker passport, you know, in exchange of 10 times less, yeah, money, like in the case of South Tommy, for example. But you know, even though South Thomas, you can do it entirely with Bitcoin, you can do it through licensed providers, like like us. You know, the government does not take Bitcoin directly. It is not a Bitcoin country. It is not Bitcoin country, okay? So they don't take exactly, no, no. Government does that. Only El Salvador. Only El

Mike Peterson: 36:40

Salvador, okay, but, but you guys can help facilitate it.

Alex Recouso: 36:44

Yes, in multiple countries, out of me, South is one of those.

Mike Peterson: 36:47

But some countries, I know, won't let you do that, right? They want to see cash coming from. They want, they want those shit coins coming from bank account.

Alex Recouso: 36:57

Yeah, no. And some countries like Grenada, for example, I would say they make it especially difficult for for Bitcoiners, yeah, you know, as soon as they see some some bitcoin as part of your wealth, they will start asking a lot of questions. So, you know, it's not just a matter of the of the process. I would say it's also a matter of the values of the country. You know, because if you are becoming a citizen a new country, because you want a plan B, you want to join a country that aligns with your values, even though you can do the process entirely with Bitcoin, you have to ask yourself, well, will this country protect me? You know, for example, for Europeans, one of the key questions is, what will happen when Europe tries to seize your Bitcoin, because it's a matter of, you know what will happen, not if it will happen, because it will happen. So will your other country? Will El Salvador stand for you? I think El Salvador will, you know, and if that happens, dual citizens of El Salvador and some other European country, I think El Salvador will will have their back and will say, Hey, you can self custody. You can hold Bitcoin in El Salvador. You know, even if Europe tells you that you're a criminal and that you should, you know, give, give them your your Bitcoin.

Mike Peterson: 38:15

So what are, what are a few countries that you guys kind of encourage people to maybe not go in that direction. What are some reasons for that? Maybe some of the more popular ones that you get requests for

Alex Recouso: 38:32

European countries. Okay, I would recommend Bitcoiners to stay away from European countries, just across the board. Just across the board, the only case where I would recommend someone getting a European passport as a bitcoiner is if you have some ancestry. Because generally the countries that will give you citizenship by descent in Europe, like Poland, like Czech Republic, Slovakia, I would say they are generally Western Europe, Eastern European countries, and they have a bit more freedom than you know your typical EU countries, like Germany, France, Spain, or even European outside of the EU, like the UK and many people you know have been traditionally attracted by Golden visas in southern Europe. Yeah, right. And personally, I think that's, that's a bit of a bull trap, because, you know, they offer you some benefits and all of that. But in the end, you know, like I said, the values are not pro Bitcoin. And I think, you know, eventually, considering the trajectory of these countries that are essentially bankrupt, they're increasing their debt, and they're increasing taxes to try to pay for that debt, and all the productive people are leaving the country. I just announced this week that I'm personally living in Portugal, because I believe eventually all productive people, all ambitious people, will leave a. EU countries.

Mike Peterson: 40:01

And I know you will put the tweet up there. I know it kind of went a little bit viral there, after you put that up. So I'd be curious as to I actually went to Portugal for the first time. This is last year. We went to Madera to see the Bitcoin Circular Economy project there. And and then actually went into southern Portugal, and it was beautiful. I loved it. I love I'm a beach person, so it reminded me of California, like 2030, years ago, all these camper vans, kind of traveling through there at the end of summer. So I'm curious as to why you're so negative on Portugal, and how long you've been there, what kind of your experience, and what you see is, as you know, kind of signs that it's headed in the wrong direction.

Alex Recouso: 40:47

I moved to port wall around three years ago, because I saw in Portugal, kind of the California of Europe. I was, I was living in LA before, and I wanted to move back to Europe. I chose portal. I thought it was, you know, Bitcoin friendly. I thought it was a great place

Mike Peterson: 41:05

because they had no capital gains tax on Bitcoin for long term, gains for long term,

Alex Recouso: 41:10

yes, but just to finish on that, on my small thesis, and what I think will happen is that, you know, as soon as all productive people will leave, what will happen is that they will try to tax them abroad, and they will implement global taxation like the US does, no matter where you live, as a US citizen, you have to pay taxes in the US that is already being proposed in France for the 2026 budget. It was proposed also last year, and it failed to pass for the 2025, budget. And I think it will eventually happen. You know, when all proactive people have left the EU, EU countries will go after them and try to tax them abroad, try to tax them in El Salvador, try to tax them in the UAE, try tax them in Singapore, and they will probably try to not only tax you, but seize your assets and freeze your assets in the EU and try to seize your Bitcoin. So that's why, you know, I was saying that. I think the golden visas and all of these programs in Europe are a bit of a bull trap. It happened. For example, in Italy, they used to have a flat tax where you could just pay a flat tax to live in Italy, I think it was like

Mike Peterson: 42:19

if you were not Italian, correct. Correct. If you want to

Alex Recouso: 42:23

be a tax resident in Italy and pay taxes there, you can just play pay a flat tax of 200k While this year they rested to 300k so suddenly, you know, it's like 50% more, and they give no notice. So I think, you know, Southern European countries could not, could not be trusted. I think the trend is clear. And, you know, the trend is really clear in terms of which countries are part of the ascending world and which countries are part of the descending world. And a bit of what I was explaining here is that I think Portugal is clearly part of the descending world. You know, it's becoming worse and worse. And that contrasts a lot with what I see, for example, here in El Salvador, like I said, the first time I came here, things were already great. You know, I was not one of the first ones who came to El Salvador, unlike you, but I have already seen how things improve. You know, I was here three months ago. I come back, and I see things becoming better. And what I have experienced during these last three years in Portugal is the complete opposite. Every time I come back there, things were worse. Infrastructure is worse. The airport is getting worse, longer waits. The streets are dirtier. There's more UN Security, basically. And, you know, more illegal immigration.

Mike Peterson: 43:38

Notice that in Lisbon especially, that, yes, yeah, yes.

Alex Recouso: 43:42

And it has many great things like, you know, the weather is pretty nice, except in the winter. Like I was saying, many people were telling me, Oh, you don't know what is real cold. But, I mean, I have been in real winters, you know, in Russia, in Eastern Europe. And the problem with Portugal is that it's cold, but not too cold. So, you know, you are quite uncomfortable to go out, but it's not cozy enough to be at home. The houses are not well built, you know, they are not prepared for cold. So, you know, it's humid, it's cold, it's not really nice. And it has great things like maybe, you know, if you are retired and you just want to play golf all day.

Mike Peterson: 44:22

Well, it seems like, I know there's a ton of Californians that are moving to Portugal. It's been like the hot spot. Do you do you think that that is slowed down? Or do you think that that's just a temporary thing? Or I think

Alex Recouso: 44:37

it had its its moment, but the Portuguese government has been basically scaring away everyone you know, with the changes in the special tax regime, with the changes in the golden visa. So I wouldn't advise anyone to look into that anymore. Maybe some Californians have some ideological affinity, you know, in some

Mike Peterson: 44:56

so it has like a California feel. Yeah, I felt it. One. I was there. I really like

Alex Recouso: 45:01

it here, yeah? Or maybe it's a bit of the Stockholm Syndrome, right, where you are captured by socialism in California, and you want to leave, but you still want to live under socialism, and you move to Portugal. But no, I mean,

Mike Peterson: 45:14

it has, I mean the beaches are beautiful,

Alex Recouso: 45:17

yeah, it has good things. I recommend people to order on vacation, yeah? But if you want to build, and if you want to build the future, you know, you should look into into other places, in my opinion, and that's what motivated my, my decision to leave the country, yeah?

Mike Peterson: 45:33

So I, one thing I tell people is, is El Salvador is definitely not for everybody. I love it here. Obviously I've chosen to make my home here. But for some people, they want to be in a developed country, not a developing country. And El Salvador still is kind of like the Wild West. It's developing I love that because there's all these possibilities, there's less regulation, there's all this excitement and entrepreneurial kind of energy that you kind of see, you see building going everywhere. But some people want to be in a place where, you know they're not have to worry about the power going out sometimes, or water issues or things like that. So I'm curious, for people that want something more like that, what? What do you recommend?

Alex Recouso: 46:18

Those were some of my requirements, to be honest, some are out of personal preference, others out of necessity. I travel a lot to meet with different governments, to meet with clients and stuff like that. So I need infrastructure. I need an international airport with wood connections and stuff like that. So those were some of my requirements. I love El Salvador and I will spend more time here. But as a main base, I was mostly looking at places that ticked these, these boxes. I looked into into Miami, I looked into Singapore and the UAE, and I looked into Switzerland, that I believe it is one of the few places in Europe that is, you know, on a not so negative trend. The reason why I chose not to move to Switzerland is because I believe, even though the trend is not so abrupt, it is still a downtrend. So I think things are getting worse. I think there are people, you know, doing a great job there, especially in terms of creating community and Bitcoin community. Giacomo, for example, is doing a great working in Lugano, attracting Bitcoiners, yes, but still, I think it is not improving dramatically and rapidly as all those other places that I mentioned, Singapore, in my opinion, is great, but for me, it was a bit too far from my centers of interest that are, you know, Europe for my family, and then you know, South America and North America for for us at Citizen X. So that's why I decided to not move there. Then I looked into Miami. My co founder just moved there. I think it's great, and I think it's one of the places to be in the US. I think Miami and Austin are probably the places to be in the US, and that are replacing the traditional capitals, the capital of finance that was New York, and the capital of tech that was San Francisco. They're moving to Austin and to Miami. Personally, I just didn't want to go through all the hassle of moving to the US, and safety played a big part. I don't personally feel safe, either myself or with my family in the US, especially in Miami, although it's one of the safest cities in the US, but I wanted to have full peace of mind, like I have in other places, like El Salvador, or like I have in the UAE. So basically, I decided to move to the UAE. For me, it ticks all boxes. I will probably miss the nature, but that's why I will come a lot to El Salvador, to surf and to enjoy the nature, to enjoy the, you know, some summer quality, the great weather. So I will, I will spend a lot of time here, but in terms of, you know, having a really great infrastructure, safety, peace of mind. And, you know, be also in a country that is tax friendly and Bitcoin friendly. For me personally, that was the UAE.

Mike Peterson: 49:29

And you're not concerned as far as not being able to get citizenship there, just as being a resident for you is fine.

Alex Recouso: 49:38

That's one of the things. You know, it's one of the downsides that you will never truly be part of the UAE, because you will never be able to get citizenship there. So you know, that's one of the things that you have to know when you're moving there, is that you know they are letting you stay there. And you know that's sort of the social contract that you have. Have, you know, you have all of these great things, but on the other hand, you know you will never be able to get citizenship. It's a bit of a different conception of citizenship. Culturally, I think, you know, the country is like a big family, and you know they're letting you stay in their house, so you have to be respectful, you have to follow the rules, and if you are okay with that, you can stay in a great place. But, you know, that's one of the things. There are other places like, especially Hispanic America, North America, traditionally, that have different, a different treatment of citizenship. Generally, there are two blocks, and maybe we can pull up that map as well. That is whether you get citizenship by birth or by blood, by blood. So generally, in the Americas, you get citizenship by birth. So it's the the use Solis, the rule of land where you are born, you get citizenship. So if you are born in El Salvador, you are automatically a citizen of El Salvador. And then you have, you know, the other side of the world that is based on blood. So you know, what citizenship Do your parents have? And that's the citizenship that you have. And that's the case, for example, in the UAE, where you know you will get the citizenship of your parents. If your parents are Salvadorian, and you are born there, you will be a citizen of El Salvador, and most likely, you will never be able to get citizenship there. That's also one of the things, or one of the reasons, why so many people in that region, in the Middle East, are interested in citizenship programs, because they know they will never be able to become citizens there and get a second passport. And they want to improve their lives. They want more optionality. They want more freedom. So they look into countries that welcome them in exchange of investment, you know, as part of their diaspora. And that's why, you know, many people move to the UAE, maybe, and they get a passport in David citizenship in El Salvador by making that contribution. So, yeah, just, just a different, you know, way, way off of thinking and way of treating citizenship. But I think you know, for me personally, and I know it's not for everyone, it was the best choice at this moment.

Mike Peterson: 52:10

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a shocking number of people from all over the world being sucked in over there. I mean, the amount that they're growing is crazy. I did hear this this last couple I guess it was a month ago. We were there for the the Bitcoin Mina conference in qdadabi. And I heard from a number of friends there that have been living there, that they were kind of disgruntled that it was getting too expensive, that the traffic was getting too bad. I don't know if you've experienced that, or your thoughts on that, or that's just people are always going to find things to gripe about. But what's, what's been your experience with that, looking into it as far as cost of living and and just traffic and other things you have to contend with

Alex Recouso: 52:59

in terms of cost of living. I think, you know, it's high, like you cannot say that it's low, but at the same time, I think it's high because of of the market. You know, many people want to live there. And like you said, I think many, especially Europeans, are relocated to the UAE. And even I have seen people from Asia, Southeast Asia, moving to the UAE. I think that's one of the trends that I was the most surprised to see in 2025 Singapore was attracting most people in Southeast Asia. Now Singapore is making it harder to move there, so people are looking into the UAE, and even people that were living in Singapore are making that move from Singapore to the UAE. So I think it's definitely one of the capitals of the world now. And the same way, you know, the US attracts a lot of capital and talent from the Americas, and I think El Salvador is doing a great job in that sense. And El Salvador is also attracting a lot of Europeans. But I think, you know, the UAE is sort of becoming the center of the other hemisphere. So definitely, you know, the cost of living is rising, but like I said, I think it's driven by demand. You know, there's a lot of demand, so the cost is rising, but at the same time, you know, they're growing a lot. So I think over time it will either stabilize or not grow as fast versus in other places of the world, like in Europe, the high cost of living is because of regulation. You know, the housing is expensive in Portugal because, yes, there is a lot of demand, but also because the government doesn't allow to build new buildings, and they make it super hard, and there's a lot of regulation. So I think that, you know, it's one of the downsides, but I think it's because of the good reason that is, you know that the region is growing a lot. The place is growing a lot. It's attracting a lot of like minded people. And in the end, you know, you have to pick your poison, right? No, no place is perfect, like you said in El Salvador, maybe you are giving us. Up some infrastructure and some, you know, some easeness of life, like life might be, you know, on the day to day, a little harder. If you lose you're

Mike Peterson: 55:12

not going to get like, you know, easy delivery, you know, same day delivery from from Amazon, or things like that. It's not, you know, or like you can in Dubai, you can have, you know, pretty much anything you want to your house and

Alex Recouso: 55:25

Exactly, exactly, but on the other side, you got beautiful

Mike Peterson: 55:28

beaches, nature, yeah. So it's definitely a trade off. One thing that that really was kind of eye opening for me, kind of this, this last couple years, as we would do the yearly trip to Dubai and Abu Dhabi was seeing a country that has such high immigration, and not just from from wealthy countries, a lot of immigration from very poor countries, countries that have a lot of crime and their own issues, but they've been able to maintain virtually zero crime within the UAE. And I know there's a lot of criticism of them that they're exploitive of workers, that they have this kind of multi level system, depending on where you're from. But as I would talk to people, it seemed like everybody was very happy to be there, that they felt like it was a fair system. They knew what they were signing up for. They knew what they were agreeing to, but they also knew if they got out of line, they'd be shipped out immediately. And so you had this sense, some of them said that, yeah, they came and started in construction and were making virtually nothing, but they worked their way up to being a delivery driver, and then, you know, went on to buy their own car, to do their own Uber, and now they're bringing their family over. And so it was interesting to see that immigration doesn't have to lead to rising crime rates and all the other things that we see in Europe and the US, if it's done, right? So I'm just curious as to if you have any thoughts on that.

Alex Recouso: 57:06

Definitely, it's not a problem of immigration, it's a problem of governance, right? The situation in Europe and the situation in the US, it's not because of immigration, it's because of illegal immigration and poor governance, and obviously the UAE, you know, like I said, it's a great example of, hey, we welcome you in our house. We welcome you in our country. You have to follow our rules

Mike Peterson: 57:35

and zero safety net either. Like you have to make your own way, pay your own thing. There's nobody going to UAE, to go on welfare, like it's pretty much if you don't work, you don't eat.

Alex Recouso: 57:45

But I think that's also one of the reasons why they attract the people who are willing to work, yeah, because they know they will not get anything from the government. So you don't get the free riders, right? It's just economics in Europe, if you are giving away, you know, money, it's free money. Well, I'm gonna go there and not work and just to get money from from the government. So I think, you know, the UAE shows it, but El Salvador also shows it, right, you can improve the safety of the country with good governance. And, you know, many people were saying that El Salvador could not be fixed.

Mike Peterson: 58:21

I felt like that, even though I lived here and loved it, but it just seemed endemic. You're like, how is this ever going to change? So I even when the government, like, started cracking down, I felt like we've seen this before, it's going to kind of be a failure. So I was shocked to see it actually work. And I think it only worked because they went in 110% and they didn't do a half measure. I think that's the only way it could have worked.

Alex Recouso: 58:48

Yep, and you know, in the end, it's like we're talking it's a trade off. In the UAE, you have a lot of maybe, maybe you experience a bit more oversight. You know, there are more cameras on the streets, things like that. Certain apps won't work there exactly, exactly, but you know what you get is extreme safety. And you know, you know what is, what is the trade off? If you are willing to take it, and if you want to take it, and then it's great. So I think, you know, it's, it's, it's similar to what some people say about El Salvador, oh, but so many people are imprisoned, yeah, but the ones who are not are are free and they're safe. So, you know it's, it's a trade off, that, in my opinion, it's, it's 100% worth it. But you have to, you know, be be willing to take it and be willing to make those decisions. And for that, you need both leadership and you need, you know, leaders with with a clear vision of what they want to build and the type of country that they want. Also, I think, you know, going back to the topic of Europe, it's. A The situation is driven a bit by by by shame, because I think Europeans generally, they are ashamed of of the past and of the culture, so they don't want to enforce it. And it's like if you move somewhere, you are in someone's house, and you respect the rules and you adapt. The problem with Europe is that I feel like most European countries, they're ashamed of their own culture and of their own values, and that means they don't they don't enforce them. So by the myth of inclusion and the myth of diversity, they want to respect everyone and everyone's values and everyone's way of living. But what ends up happening is that they don't respect the local values and the local way of living. Personally, I think El Salvador is doing a great way, a great job in that as well. But you know, I think it's important to think that you know, by allowing someone to do something, maybe you are limiting the freedom of other person. You know. The extreme example is El Salvador. By allowing criminals to roam free in the streets, you are limiting the freedom of good people. Maybe the not so extreme example is that you know, by allowing people to leave their way, maybe you are limiting, you know, other people way of living.

Mike Peterson: 1:01:24

So one of the things that you had highlighted in your tweet was that you felt like young people in Portugal didn't want to work, that you didn't see them to be motivated. I would love to have you kind of peel that back a little bit and then contrast to what you see in El Salvador,

Alex Recouso: 1:01:42

I think there are people in Portugal who want to work, but the ones who do, they are not in Portugal. That's the thing. Most hard working, ambitious people from Europe, they're moving out of Europe. They're moving to, traditionally, to places like the US now. They're moving to places of the, you know, ascending world, places where there's opportunity, like El Salvador, like the UAE, because they want to do things. Like Lina, for example, she's German, yeah, and she moved here because she wants to do things, and she wants to contribute, and she's ambitious. So I think that's a trend. And what ends up happening is that the people who stay there, they have no ambition. You know, they are just fine with whatever it is. They don't want to contribute, because there's a sense that of inevitability in the bad way. There's a definite pessimism that things can only get worse and there's nothing that you can do about it. And there's a lot of truth in that, because just of, you know, the way things work in Europe, starting from the highest level of how the European Union is structured, like you cannot really do much, you know. And there's, there's another story, and there's a sense why the European Union was built that way after the World War Two and all of that. But just because of how solid it is, that prevents you from actually changing things. So going back to the topic, what ends up happening is that ambitious people leave, and the ones who stay there, they're fine with having worse lives than their parents did, and they're fine with, you know, just earning some government subsidies make it, you know, month to month, and that's it. And they don't have any, any, any problem with that. So basically, I think that, you know, in other places like El Salvador, people saw during their lifetime how things improved, and they believe that it's possible to improve their lives. And just because of that, you know, and starting from from the highest level, again, the President showed that it's possible to improve things, and that belief permeates the entire society. So people realize, well, if, if our president managed to fix this super hard problem, I can fix this small problem, or I can make things slightly better in my day to day life. So I think, you know, it's just a matter of values. And again, I think it all boils down to places that are getting better, places that are getting worse, and those trends and those beliefs permeate all the societies. So in places that are getting worse, there's a sense of definite pessimism. And then in places that are getting better, it can be, you know, definite optimism or indefinite optimism, like like Peter Thiel says, in the case of El Salvador, I think it's indefinite, because people don't know how things are going to get better, but they're willing to figure it out. And I think that's the best type of optimism, versus some of the optimism I see in the US, especially during the last couple of years, that is definite optimism, like, yeah, everything will be fine. Because, you know, we are. We have been the leading. Power. So everything will will get better. That can be dangerous, you know, because you are not making the work of figuring out how to make things better.

Mike Peterson: 1:05:10

So if El Salvador were to change their their process at all, or to, you know, open up a second pathway to citizenship here, what would be some recommendations that you would have, as far as what you see from clients, what they want, the trade offs that they're willing to make, versus the cost, you know, versus having to, like, have a presence in the country? Do you think that there's some things that El Salvador could if it was up to you, what would you how would you set it up?

Alex Recouso: 1:05:47

I think, since it is the fastest program, and it is one of the easiest, even though it's the most expensive one, that's also an opportunity to maybe, you know, offer something that is not as fast, that has a bit more friction, you know, in terms of maybe visiting the country, spending some time in El Salvador, making other types of contributions. I think you know, there's, there's some room for, like you said, you know, new, new paths to getting involved with El Salvador. I think you know that is already in the in the roadmap. Some years ago, President bukele announced the this program where he would be sponsoring 5000 passports for people who want to move here and contribute to the country, for skilled, high skilled people like doctors, engineers, real doctors and engineers, you know, and then people with skills, people working in tech, in this type of fields, and he will basically sponsor five, 5000 passports, but people have to move here, you know, full time. And probably, I don't know, it might have, you know, some, some requirements in terms of how many years you need to live here. So I think, you know, that's already, that's already been being thought about, that's already discussed, and I think you know, it would make sense to offer, to offer some things that are, you know, hybrids. I think the current freedom passport program, it's really great, but it's also really extreme. You know, you are donating a big amount of money. You're getting it really fast. You know, it's really easy, but it's a lot of money. So, you know, there are opportunities to make things in the middle of, you know, the spectrum in terms of how much time, how much time you're spending here, and how much money you are contributing.

Mike Peterson: 1:07:45

That makes sense. So anything else you want to cover, I feel like we've hit

Alex Recouso: 1:07:54

anything that was a lot. Yeah, obviously,

Mike Peterson: 1:07:57

we want to make sure that people know how how they can utilize your services. Who you think are, you know, people that should be thinking about getting a second passport. So I'll let you give your, your, your your spiel, yeah, show us your, your services. There it says,

Alex Recouso: 1:08:16

not a big fan of shilling. I just think that, you know, hey,

Mike Peterson: 1:08:19

we want we want it. We want to show people. We everyone. So you got it, you got a company that you've built. You're doing great things. So let people know

Alex Recouso: 1:08:26

about everyone. Everyone should be thinking about it, you know. And especially Bitcoiners, I think they already thought about what system they want to live in, you know, they want to take a short on the fiat system. Short position on the fiat system. And they voted with their money. They got their plan B, which, which was Bitcoin in the previous decade. Mostly, some people are, you know, realizing in in this decade. But I think, you know, it's also important to think about your your passport portfolio. And, you know, not, not be limited by just one passport. Think about how to join countries that aligns with your values, how to set up your flags you know, your passport, your companies, your tax residency, all of that in in countries that that you are positive about, that you feel positive about. So I mean, if you know getting a second passport with citizenship by investment, citizenship by descent, sounds like a good option. We are super happy, you know, to talk with everyone, plan, strategize together. Katie has been doing that for for many years, for many, many Bitcoiners. So you know, we're super happy to do it at Citizen X com, at Citizen X on Twitter. You can also find me personally at Rick, also on Twitter, R, E, C, O, U, S O, and super happy, you know, to talk with everyone and figure out if getting a second passport or investing in citizenship is the right fit. Awesome.

Mike Peterson: 1:09:56

Well, definitely encourage people to check them. Out if you're thinking about getting a second passport, there's no time like the present, because you never know when these countries are going to get rid of their programs, and historically, they've gotten harder and more expensive, rather than cheaper. So I think it's a good time to take advantage of it. And hey, would love to see some of you come down here and with the Salvadoran passport. Definitely amazing things happening here in El Salvador. So thank you, Alex, for for coming in today, and we'll we'll have to recap again next year, after you've spent a year in the UAE, I'm assuming you're not going to spend the summer, sir, probably not.

Alex Recouso: 1:10:43

I mean, like I said, I travel a lot for work. I will probably spend a lot of time here. Will spend some time in Miami with my co founder, but yeah, it will be my main base, and looking forward to tell you about it next year.

Mike Peterson: 1:10:57

Awesome. All right, thanks. Thank you. Mike.