Wine and...Movies: MOON (2009) w/ Jessica Maison

Penultimate (I love that word, I don’t really know why) episode of 2024!

Today we tackle the directorial debut of Duncan Jones, son of David Bowie, and his shockingly good use of split screen to make a doppelganger movie like no other with actor Sam Rockwell.

We’re joined writer by Jessica Maison, novelist of the PASTIC GIRL Trilogy and graphic novelist of the MARY SHELLEY’S SCHOOL FOR MONSTERS line of OGNs.

Jessica also wrote and co-directed (alongside her husband) her own doppelganger feature film, MY OWN WORST ENEMY (2012). It’s available to rent or buy on Amazon Prime or free to borrow/rent on Hoopla!

Jessica's Cocktail and Wine Pairing:
Pele’s Wrath (with Mezcal)
Phigment Red Blend, Lodi, California (Zinfandel and Merlot, $6.99 Trader Joe's!)

Dallas' Wine Pairing:
2021 Ridge “Lytton Springs” Red Blend (Zinfandel, Petite Sirah, Carignan, Alicante Bouschet, Cinsault, and Counoise.)

Dave's Wine Pairing:
Dry Creek Vineyard’s FOUR CLONES VINEYARD Zinfandel

Transcript

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He's Dave and I'm Dallas and we have opinions on just about everything. Sometimes they're on point and sometimes they go down better with a glass of wine. Join us. This is the Wine and Podcast. Welcome back everyone to Wine and the podcast where we pair wine with entertainment, delude ourselves into thinking you want to hear what we have to say about different pieces of pop culture and art, but know for a fact that you need to hear what we have to say about wine because man who knows no nothing about no wine. That was a lot of nos. Grammar police are coming for me today. Well, we know some know nothing about no wine so we can help you find the perfect pairing for whatever it is you're planning to read, watch or listen to. Now, before we get started, please make sure to hit that follow button and subscribe. It does help this podcast grow and reach new listeners. Also, please leave a rating and or review five stars. You know, all those who listen to us. OK, mom, please leave a five star review. Yeah, don't make me call you again. And for and for the rest of you, mom, you're already at Substack. Thank you. Thank you. You've done that much. The rest of you, if you're listening. Thanks, mom. You can also. Find us on Substack, wineann.substack.com where you'll be the first to know when new episodes drop. Get in-depth show notes, sometimes uncut versions of these episodes, bonus pairings, articles, chats, pairing directories, man, wineann.substack.com. Be a cool kid, drink the wine cooler aid and join us on Substack. Now today, everybody, we have a very special guest, Jessica. Mae Sung, the writer, creator of the all ages Mary Shelley School for Monsters graphic novel series and the YA sci-fi novel trilogy Plastic Girl. She is also the publisher of Wicked Tree Press and writes the Monster of the Week sub stack that is monsteroftheweek.substack.com where she writes about all the monsters she's obsessed with in the voice of Necro, the cute and cuddly book of the dead and beloved character from her Mary Shelley School for Monsters. graphic novel series. Each post is one of Necro's daily entries about another monster, including cool facts and silly secrets about these creatures. Part fact, part fiction, all monsters. The sub stack also includes behind the scenes info about the monster school and what Wicked Tree Press is up to that week. We will of course have links to all of that in the description of this episode. But let's welcome Jessica onto the show. Jessica, welcome to Wine and and how you doing this fine LA afternoon? I'm doing great. I'm so happy to be here with you in Dallas to talk about what we're going to talk about. We're to talk about it. And we are going to talk about it. Let's do it. We are going to talk about the movie. You saw it in the title before you clicked play on this podcast, hopefully. So you know what we're going to talk about here. it is going to be the 2009 feature film Moon directed by Duncan Jones. And, you know, normally we have guests on and the guest has something that like. They want to promote they're like right here right now we're here to promote something Jessica doesn't exactly have that by the time this episode is actually dropping we will definitely ask what she has going on and where to find all her stuff at the end of the episode but She was like, I want to come on YNAD. And I was like, no, but she has a campaign when we're recording this. There's a Kickstarter campaign going on, but it won't be going on by the time this drops. And she's like, yeah, that's fine. I just want to talk about Moon. Let's do it. And I was like, OK, all right. We're just going to talk about Moon. So we're going to ask you. Desperately. I want to talk about Moon. We're gonna ask you why you want to talk so desperately about moon in just a moment Let's introduce moon for those of you who are unfamiliar with the movie or you've heard of it, but you're like, what is the like? I've heard of it. That's the one with what's-his-face and blah blah blah. So let me give you a quick intro because Now I am gonna say this I'm about to give a summary of the story about moon and that will come with a spoiler It is an end of the first act spoiler So it's not like, you the whole movie's blown, but it is impossible to talk at length about this movie without revealing that spoiler. Now, the non-spoiler bits, let me give you that. then listeners, if you haven't seen this movie, please go fuck off and watch this movie and then fuck back on and listen to the rest of this podcast. But we will be spoiling this little, this little plot twist that happens at the end of the first act. So first, the non-spoiler bits. Moon is the first film in director Duncan Jones's loosely connected sci-fi trilogy that includes Moon is the First, 2018's feature film Muse starring Alexander Skarsgard and Paul Rudd, which is a Netflix original, so you can only find it on Netflix, and the 2020 graphic novel. Maddie, Once Upon a Time in the Future written by Jones and Alex De Campi with a roster of comic artists legends, including Glenn Fabry, Simon Beisley, Duncan Fregredo and Pia Guerra. This is a, I mean, you can see it next to my head. It is a monster sized. A beefy one. Hardcover graphic novel. It's a beefy and it's 260 pages. So this is possibly, now I have not seen Muse or read, yeah, I own this graphic novel, but I have not read it. Yet. So Moon was the only movie in this trilogy I was familiar with coming into this podcast. And I have not yet watched Muse or read this graphic novel because I think Jessica bringing Moon onto this podcast that has kicked us off. really has. Thanks, Jessica. my words. Yes. And I will be honest, I haven't done those other two either. now I will also do some homework. yes. Were you aware that it was a trilogy before before this moment? I was aware, but I didn't I It was like one of those things where I watched it and then I was like, that was really cool. then just 2009 is when I had my first dog. I had my first dog. So I watched that movie and then literally moved on with life with new life. I actually created life. was amazing. Exactly. I'll rub it in our faces. We know you're superior. I can make life guys. Yeah, the rest of us just write stories and things like that, right? Or talk about other people creating fictional life and things like that. Jessica's like, I do it all. Thanks. I haven't figured out the clone thing yet, but some man. When you do, let me know because I have ideas. good. Good, good. I want to hear those ideas. All right. So now, folks, this is where the spoilers begin. So I will even make sure I put a chapter marker here on the episodes. You can come right back to where you left off, but I need you to go away and watch this movie if you have not seen it yet. You have until three, two, one. All right, you've been warned. Moon follows Sam Bell, played by Sam Rockwell, the lone worker stationed on the moon to oversee the mechanical mining of an element called Helium-3. that powers over 70 % of the human population's energy needs back on Earth. Sam is entering his final two weeks of a three-year contract, after which he finally gets to head back home. Chronic communication problems have long disabled his live feed from Earth and limit him to only occasional recorded messages from his wife Tess, who was pregnant with their daughter Eve when he left. But Sam begins to suffer from hallucinations of a teenage girl and a disheveled man. One such image distracts him while he's out recovering a canister causing him to crash his Rover and fall unconscious. Sam awakens in the base infirmary with no memory of the accident. He overhears GERTI, an artificial intelligence, artificial intelligence, which assists him having a live chat with lunar industries management. Remember the live chat communications are supposedly disabled. Lunar industries orders Sam to remain on base and says that a rescue team will arrive for repairs. Suspicious, Sam manufactures a fake problem to persuade Gertie to let him outside. He travels to the crashed rover and finds his unconscious doppelganger where the audience last left him. He takes the double back to the base and tends to his injuries. The two Sams start to wonder if one of them is a clone of the other. After an argument and physical altercation, Gertie reveals they are both clones of the original Sam Bell. Gertie activated the newest clone after the crash and convinced him that he was at the beginning of his three-year contract. The memories of his wife and daughter for both of them are implanted. The film then follows the plight of these two clones, how they deal with these revelations, how they plan to survive with the company quote unquote rescue team arriving shortly, who will likely kill both clones if they find them both awake and aware of what they are. That is what Moon is about. All right. Now, let's first off, Jessica, why Moon? What is your history with this movie? Why did you want to come on and talk? Why were you chomping at the bit to come on and talk about this movie in particular? OK, for two things, I'm obsessed with double movies, anything with the same version of another person, whether it's multiverse, whether it's, you know, clones, whether it's weird time travel stuff. just I love that dynamic. I even. I directed a short film that has that dynamic as well. the other reason is because of the score of this movie by Clint Manziel. I love the score and I wrote my Plastic Girl trilogy. Just it was one of the rotations of that. was just the vibe. I like the vibe and for the writing and what I was trying to do. And I don't know, I just fell in love with this movie when I first watched it. I liked the questions it was asking and I had it. I wanted it a good excuse to watch it again. So when we were emailing, I'm like, I want to do moon because I want to rewatch it. And I did. And it was great. Yeah. And you on the mind because you just released your Plastic Girl trilogy. Yeah. Like finish that up not too long ago. So yeah, I can see why this would be on the mind. I'm like this way about time travel versus doubles in all fiction. Like the moment something is about time travel, I'm like, it's probably shit, but I have to. I have to see it, I have to read it, I have to watch it. And then of course you get really, I don't know about you, but do you, because you're so into double stories about doubles of any kind, are you extra critical about them at this point? Cause you've just consumed so much. No, because I actually think it's really hard. directed a very low budget movie about it, it's very hard to get time travel. well, you know, to do it well, to do a clone movie well, have like doppelgangers. Multiverse is very hard to like having multiple versions of yourself doubling and doubling and doubling on and on and on, you know, forever. So I'm usually a lot very forgiving of these movies unless the ending is just shit. And then I'm angry for the rest of my life. And, you know, this is this visceral anger, you know. for time travel same because you can you can not stick the landing exactly where it's like you just broke all your own internal rules and now you're just making shit up and it's terrible. Yeah, yeah. It's like you got there and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing. Why would it? It's my least favorite. It's so evident when you find one of those bad sci fi time travel cloning films. They're rooted usually in the beginning of the first act in some science in some sort of fact. But then it just goes haywire when the writers are trying to keep everything contained. And you get stuff like, well, I won't name any names, but some very bad sci-fi. Yeah. Well, and whether or not time travel will actually work, you know, that's another thing too. Like, can it actually happen? And it's easy. But these are concepts that are so cerebral that it is really hard to do it well and very hard to do it simply so that an entire, like almost every person in a general audience will understand what you're trying to say. So, Well, because it's like I love the movie primer for the reason that it is so difficult to follow. Like most people, like you almost have to draw them the schematic after the movie of like how the F it just like what did that work? Did that make sense? I'm like, yes, it did. But then I had to I remember the person I saw it with. I had to draw a diagram on the back of a napkin after the movie because they were just like, don't. That didn't make sense. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, it does. It does. But it is so complicated. And so that one, was trying to root itself in a possibly scientific basis for the time travel that would function in a very specific way. And it's convoluted. And that guy's that guy was an engineer or something. He was not necessarily first a filmmaker. Yeah. So. That was one of my favorite low budget movies because he spent like $7,000 on that movie and it was crazy. It was so good. he starred in it, right? He was the guy, I think, right? I think so, but I to go back. There were two guys, but he was one of them, yeah. I had a similar experience with the film Looper. Looper has a legendary kind of production history because They essentially sold the idea on a sizzle reel and the sizzle reel itself is phenomenal. Like it's just fantastic. But the film itself, the execution, you're like, OK, all right. There's a few things. Yeah. Looper. Looper is not one of my favorites because that's one where it sets up a internal. See, I'm OK with the fiction part of science fiction where it's like, just have fun. Like sometimes go for it. Like, but. be internally consistent or if the point of your story is to not be consistent, if there's an element of that where it's like, this is wild and we don't care, set that up early enough. But if you're gonna be like, here's an internal logic, we're literally gonna lay it out for you and then in the second half, you're just like, yeah, it's fiction. And then you just do whatever you feel like. I'm like, now you've done it wrong and now I don't like you anymore. no, now I have to go rewatch the looper because I've only seen it once and I liked it. So I'm like, but there was something that upset I'm sure that getting I'm sure there was and I can't remember what in your second viewing, it's going to stick out even more. no, no, I probably was so distracted by the actor. Yeah, see, that's the thing about that. I was like, what's curious about that film is the the the duo the acting duo they, know, Dave and I were having conversation recently about how when you have the actor, There's certain cash that the actor brings to a role that can kind of just sell you on the concept sometimes or the narrative if it's it's weak and those two actors together because at the time it came out just and just if Gordon Levitt, that's his name, Gordon Levitt Gordon Levitt. He was making that transition into proper actor coming into his own. So everyone's excited. I excited about seeing where he took this. And then Bruce Willis, of course, is Bruce Buck and Willis, you know. So yeah, halfway through the film, I was sort of like, no, this isn't very good. I just like them. OK. So yeah. And you really like them in that movie. So they do a very good job. Yeah, they do. Yeah. So they carry that very well. so now I have to go rewatch it and be sad, guess. I don't want to do that. So maybe I won't rewatch it. The time travel does not add up in the end. What they do in the second half, you're like, damn it. No, you just lost the thread. Yeah. Yeah, didn't. And I think I think I remember that conversation and just being like, I'm fine. I'm fine. got my money's worth in that movie. Exactly. out of curiosity, Jessica, because I definitely want to put or you can let me know if you want this to you want to turn people on to this or not. But your short film, is it available for folks to watch? It is. And I don't want you to get too judgmental. No, it's called it's called Own Worst Enemy. I co-directed it with my husband. It is about an inventor who Someone stole, another inventor stole his idea and it's just a stupid sharper image idea, but he gets so obsessed with getting credit for that, he makes a time machine. And meanwhile, he's ruining his relationship with his girlfriend and he only goes back in time to get credit for that sharper image. And she finds the time machine and goes back in time to stop herself from falling in love with him, but unfortunately falls in love with the younger version of him all over again. We did it with 13. I want to say we shot it in 13 days. It's a super low budget, not as low as primer, but very low. I'm proud of it. There are things that I wish I could go back and do again, just with the script in general. But I think that time travel makes sense. It's very simple. It's not hard. We have a lot of doppelgangers. Well, I'll go ahead say this now, Jessica. We have been gradually rolling out a little pairing mini arc in our series here where we pair some short film with one. Mine's a feature. even? it's a feature. yeah, I it was a short. no, so, you know, maybe it's possible that I'm just saying. You guys just need to be gentle. Don't worry. are, especially with friends. get it. get it. No, no. I am, am. I'm incredibly proud of that movie. We did that. Yeah, it was just, it's just, always preface that with like understand how a low budget works. And we can get into that when we And I'm assuming it was like micro budget when you say low when I say low budget, yeah, micro budget. And the reason, you know, I wish we had just a little more time with the script, but we got a lot of stuff. given and donated to us at a very specific time. had just had our daughter. We were still working on the script. I was helping rewrite the script with Dan and Mike. Mike's my husband, they wrote it. And we suddenly got all this equipment and all this stuff and all these people who wanted to help. we self-financed it. it was super, a micro budget is, an ultra micro budget is. And everyone did a really great job. It was just like, and I'm so glad we did it. And it's a lot of fun. And, you know, it's just we didn't have like a budget for all the actors are wonderful, but, you we're we're all exactly who we are. And, and I, I love it. So I always say, check it out on worst enemy. And if you don't like it, don't write a review. It's not necessary. We say the same about our pod. We understand we're like, don't leave. It's like, if you hate us, send us a nasty email. Don't leave that review. Don't, read it. No, but what's really cool about it is it has a wonderful score. that Julia Holter did. And she's actually kind of a pretty big experimental artist. She has composed for Martin Scorsese. And I will say she composed for us first. But no, so because I think it was the first time we were working together. Very cool. And her music career was starting to like. go up and she's a wonderful person. I'm just going to say this. think, having the actual creator here for that pairing with that film with some of that interesting backstory is a great idea. So I'm just going to put that seed there with you, Jessica. And if it's something you're open to, I will always come and be on this show guys. And I will love, I would love to talk about the film because I do love, I would love to talk about all the cool creative work that went into it. that's the interesting, that's what's interesting about using it. Yeah, yeah. Good stuff. And that would be fantastic. And I could even get the other director to come on. I know him a little bit. I thought that was your husband. No, you wrote it. is my husband. Okay. That was funny way of saying it. No, we directed it together. Him and his, Peretti, his other writing partner, we... Mike and I have written together, but we did not write this together. I just was giving them notes and Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. It's like a dream. Yeah, so yeah, we'll circle back to that in the future days. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, I'm excited about that actually. I love me, the micro-budget stuff. I'm a member of this letterboxed weekly film club thing where it's like we watch, we always try and push ourselves boundary-wise and everyone, we take turns on who gets to pick which movie we're gonna watch every week. And I am always bringing like stuff that went to film festivals that never really went anywhere after, you know what I mean? Where it's like, but I feel like that's a shame because they are, and you can kind of, watch these films and you're like, yeah, they're not slick, you know, like they didn't have that glossy sheen to them. really need to, yeah, to really get distribution in any significant way. They kind of exist out in the ether, but no one knows about them They went to you know, they made a semi splash in a few festivals and then that's it and I always push them It's interesting because most people even people who are trying to push their boundaries Micro budgets are tough for most people because we're so used to the gloss. We're so used to that Yeah, you know, it was great. I was handing I always when I go to conventions, bring like four or five and we do like little scavenger hunts. And then if someone's really into time travel or sci fi, I'll give them one. Because we have like some we have like a box of DVDs left that, we forgot we forgot about in the attic and I found them. I'm going to bring these. And and, you know, this one woman who was obsessed with time travel came up to me at L.A. Comic Con. She's like, my God, I love time travel. And And the reason we were talking about it is my buddy has a time travel book that was at the table. And I said, well, then you have to watch this movie. And she went home and she was so excited and she watched it and she loved it. She emailed me and she didn't have to do that. She emailed me. my God. I love that movie. That was so great. So I think, you know, but you have to be you have to understand what a micro budget is. I agree, Dave, because if you do. that's why. So when I I just want to say this for all the people involved, my film, I love my film. I just want people to know. what it is before they go watch it and they go, well, what the heck, you know? Right. Micro budget is not even a blump. Like a Blumhouse movie is a low budget. Absolutely. Yeah, that's a low budget. Yeah. Right. But a micro budget is, I mean, that's your primer where it's like it. Yeah. It's where you spend most of your money on the actors and a of locations. Yeah. And that's a micro budget. And then it's like, definitely to actually film anywhere. Where did you guys film, by the way? I know we were on. Well, we filmed at a couple of houses of people we knew at our own house. And then we got this little, we rented this little space down in Korea town. And we, with a bunch of buddies, turned it into his laboratory, of like his workshop. was his workshop. And then we turned in and it was like, his last name is Key. And so like, he does, sells keys that's on the front of the workshop. So we had a little shop where he sells and does keys. And then in the back is his invention workshop. And then we flipped it and we changed it a lot. So you'll see it in the movie. And all that is awesome. that was a lot. And we had like, it was just a great time because everyone involved was just, you know, just moving up in their careers, you know? And so everyone had just, a lot of people had just gotten off of Desperate Housewives and they all had a break. And my husband worked on Desperate Housewives. So a of those people. came over, not the actors, but a lot of the people who on it came and helped. Eva Longoria just pops in and like, hey. So that was why we kind of rushed into it because we had a lot of those people who wanted to help and get involved in something Mike was doing. I would say me, but they worked with him. And yeah, and it was good. And it was just crazy because we had We just got off subject so bad. We had just had, we had, my daughter was a toddler at the time. So we're like, this is a perfect time. To make a movie. But then I even had friends come in from out of town and hang out with her. So it was cool. It was a good time. Yeah. Yeah. So exciting. And were you sneaky since you did, since you did friends houses, maybe the Korea town place you had to get a license for. did you skip it for the friends houses though? Were you able to just sort of like. We cheated. Here's Denver. would say we we I would say we might have read some low budget indie filmmaking books that. Yeah, we did as much of it by the book as we could. then. Right. That's that's how it happens. contracts and stuff. Of course. Good stuff. Yeah. All right. So before we get into the history of Moon, the movie, let's quickly. Dallas, what's your history with this movie? You hadn't seen it. I seen it. I remember seeing the trailer. I remember seeing the trailer. and being really excited about it. But there's another film that came out around the same time, which I think was also called Moon or something Moon, Moon 13 or something. Yeah, Moon number. remember this now. And I remember hearing that this is a vehicle for Sam. was basically he was the only guy in the film, essentially, which I love. I mean, I just adore those concepts when they're executed well. I had no idea what it was about. as a matter of fact, the other film I'm thinking of starred that actor I can't stand who plays from Parks and Rec, the fat one. He's also in the Marvel DC. Chris. You don't like you don't like that? Yeah, that guy. But I think Chris Pratt is Chris Pratt. He Chris Pratt. What was I think he Okay, I'll look it up. I will. I'll look it up. But yeah. It threw me off because I saw the trailers for that film. What Dave? wait, wait, wait, wait. You're talking about him, the one where there's the passengers. No one where it's like him and what's her face later? That's later. Not that. Not that. I remember hearing about that one, which I didn't see. OK. think I have it written down somewhere anyway. Anyway. Yeah, so I remember hearing about the film and I love anything Sam's in because he's just one of those actors who rocks my world every time he's on camera. I knew a little bit about the concept of the film of the production because at the time this is what 2009 right so this was when I was doing I was working on this around the time Dave and I were meeting. I was working on this massive graphic novel concept and the director at the time had also been working on this massive graphic novel thing that he had mentioned. And I remember reading about. But that's that was the concept. Never saw the film. Dave brought it up and remembered that, you know, I remember looking it up and realizing that it was sci fi. was a, you know, a trapped concept. And I love anything moon based. I think the moon is an underutilized resource in our canon of storytelling. yeah, so I was all in. And we've done First Man and now this one. So we've been for a relatively new podcast. We're very moon-centric here so far. he and I share a birthday. I didn't know that until today, actually. nice. Nice, nice. Well. On that note, so I will just say I have seen Moon, but I had seen Moon before. I remember liking it quite a bit back in the day. Interestingly, I really haven't seen a lot of other Duncan Jones movies after Moon. I did see Source Code. Yeah, I did too. Yeah, I didn't like it. We'll talk a little bit about Source Code. That was his first big studio movie after Moon, and he was a little... a little over his head in the studio didn't trust him in what he was doing, even though they gave it to him because of Moon. But they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, kid, this is a big budget, you know, you know what I mean? Now, after that, he also did like he did the Warcraft movie, which I have not seen. I haven't seen either. Yeah, that's right. He did. So he's done a bit. Yeah, yeah. He's done a few and I was looking at it all like his is sort of. filmography and I was like, God, think Moon is pretty much and then Source Code are the only ones and he's got Rogue Trooper, the adaptation of the 2008 comic coming out next in 2025. And that principal photography for that is already over. So that is that is in the can and done. That's his first feature film since Mute in 2018. So that's going to be a big thing for him. But it's actually it's animated. But I believe they cast actors and did some kind of mocap. animation type thing with the Unreal Engine or something like that is what it sounds like. So let's talk. go We might be talking about his best film as well. for sure. So far. So far. Yeah, so far. I think. And we'll see. All right. So we'll talk a little bit about Mute here because Mute was actually the first film he wanted to make. And he made Moon as sort of a backup because he was not able to get Mute off the ground. So let's talk a little bit about this history. So Moon is the feature film directorial debut of Duncan Jones, who was born Duncan Zoe Haywood Jones, the first child musician David Bowie and his first wife, Angie Bowie, aka Mary Angela Barnett. David Bowie's legal name is David Robert Jones, hence Duncan Jones. Duncan was actually known as Zoe Bowie all through his childhood to rhyme with his father's stage name. So Duncan got to visit the set of Labyrinth. while his father was filming that during his childhood and later would even work, go to work for the Jim Henson creature shop. Jones graduated with a bachelor's degree in philosophy from the college of Wooster. He then pursued a PhD degree at Vanderbilt University in Tennessee, but left before completion to attend London Film School where he then graduated in 2001. Now immediately upon graduation, Jones had the script for the movie mute. a romantic sci-fi story heavily inspired by Ridley Scott's Blade Runner. Jones then during those intervening years cut his teeth directing commercials, concert footage, music videos, but he had his eyes set on feature films the whole time. And he kept trying to get this mute film, was like his sort of college years, like auteur opus, which of course is always the first thing you want to do. Like no baby steps. You're always like this. crawling, Blade Runner-esque, like insane new sci-fi. This is what we're gonna make first. Now interestingly, because he was a commercial director and a very successful one, he had representation. He was able to get his script for Mute to Sam Rockwell and through his agent. And so he knew, and I could not really find the reason why he was obsessed with Sam Rockwell. But apparently he's like my first movie will star Sam Rockwell. He was convinced of this right from the get go. So he took the mute script to him and he wanted Sam Rockwell to play the villain in mute, which in the ultimate version of mute that was made, Paul Rudd plays the villain and Sam Rockwell did not want to play that part. He wanted to be the hero, which is this hulking brute of a mute man. which eventually was played by Alexander Skarsgård in the Mute movie. But he's supposed to be this sort of like silent giant, right? Sort of peaceful giant type of a thing. So Sam Rockwell, he was like, nah, man, you skinny. Like, can't, you're not, you're tiny. I'm like, this isn't the right thing. But he could not convince Rockwell to be interested in the villain role. And Rockwell could not convince Duncan that he was right for the hero role. And so they, you know, they, but they did bond over their love of seventies and eighties sci-fi. So movies like running scared outpost and the original alien. So they basically kind of shook hands and Rockwell was like, look, if you ever have anything else, like let's stay in touch and let me know. And Duncan was like, okay, went home and immediately started writing the story idea for moon for explicitly Sam Rockwell. Cause he's like, no. Sam Rockwell will be in my very first feature film. So if it's not gonna be Mute, I will write something else. And I think there was pressure also that Mute was going to be a much, you it's your first movie and you want to make essentially a tent pole sci-fi blockbuster. And I think he realized he was starting to get the idea that like, okay, this is gonna be too hard and I can't get Sam Rockwell. So in Duncan's own words, quote, This is about him and Sam Rockwell. We were both sort of big fans of those types of movies, of the fact that in that period of science fiction, you've got these sort of really interesting, gritty, blue collar working people in space. And you really didn't get that anymore in science fiction. Now, quick side rant about the working class hero, because this is something actually a lot of people have been noticing about cinema in the last like 10 to 20 years, is how much we've stopped making the working class person our heroes. our protagonists are rarely that anymore in Hollywood. We've tend to now have, you have like your Tony Starks, right? You have your sort of, you can have suburbans heroes too, like middle-class. Yeah, but working class, don't, like they're always lawyers or scientists or secret agents for the government or geniuses or billionaires. You're Bruce Wayne's and Tony Starks. And the working class hero, the John McClain and Die Hard, who was just a cop, he wasn't a special cop. He was just your everyday cop. You're sort of people who just worked in factories or worked the, they were a bank teller. They weren't a, they didn't work in an executive branch or even managing a were just the teller. Exactly. And we have definitely that has that is something that a lot of people have noted has gone the way of the dodo and that that really is something that's missing from our our fiction these days. Well, and we hardly even have fully human heroes anymore. Yeah. A lot of our big heroes are somehow mutants, somehow like right. Or they're specialized trainer training, like you're saying, like there's not just the regular human being who gets thrown into a situation. Right. As even when they yeah. Yeah. And even when they are like the big complaint of the fifth die hard was that he was essentially unkillable and kind of a superhero. Even though he was supposed to just be John McClane, he's like the ways he was avoiding death or some of the stunts he would pull with, of course, lots of help from CGI was like he's not Captain America, man. Like you can't like you can't. No human being can survive that jump, you know, but they would just. do it anyways, because now we were in the superhero Marvel era of action filmmaking. Yeah. And I would say like Alien Romulus kind of went back to that. But Alien always kind of stays in there. They don't go too far from the crew. Yeah, that's their sweet sweet spot. mean, I would say Fall Guy tried to. to be the working, I thought Fall Guy was great. I liked it, I'm sorry, but it didn't do well. I haven't seen it. It didn't do well as well as they thought it was going to do. right, right. And he is a working class guy. I mean, in Hollywood, which makes it Right, he's a superhero. It is. If it's a character based in the world of Hollywood, he's a superhero of some sort. So yeah, is, yeah, so he doesn't, because he's a stunt guy. he does also have a special specializing. So I guess, yeah, I mean, even in twister, they're, he's working class, but he's not because he's like a celebrity cowboy, you know, and she is a scientist, you know, so it's an interesting. Yeah, it's a it's a interesting shift. know. I'm trying to find a movie guys. I think we all are actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but you're right. It's something about the exploitation of the comic book. You know the early 2000s first was 2004 Iron Man right Dave my right on the date on that Iron Man 2008 was the first Iron Man. Yep, wow. Wow. You are surprised. We've had this conversation on this podcast before. You are always surprised by this. It just seems like it's been around so long. 2008 is not the first iron. No way. We've got to look that up. Fact checks, unless someone... Because Endgame was 2018 or 19, May of 2019, and it was 10 years of marketing. That's what closed that final first phases. That amazes me that was only wow. Anyway, but yeah, it was only a decade of Marvel and then the lockdown. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, at the time, 2009, we were in heavily interested in the comic book, transmedia, comic book, graphic novel exploitation world, you know, particularly trying to get those things into Hollywood. And, you know, that but that's why that's why they were so popular precisely because it that was the beginning. was the beginning, you know. Well, and also that you you have to kind of look at what Hollywood as a business model has become. Like they don't take a ton of risks at the box office anymore because they're all struggling as far as that goes. And so they put all their temple projects around these IPs that they know. That's why we keep getting like the same universe is over and over again, because they're just like, don't want to, you know, start another diehard. seems like they don't want every when's the last time they launched a new franchise because they don't take a risk on one movie that everyone might really like like with a new actor and a new and it makes sense in terms of like you said terms of the current business model because it is globalization is the trend and has been for a while and because of that you get these fairly generic kind of concepts characters that can open globally without much you know sort of translation for local specificity or culture And, you know, comic books do that better than anyone else, because we are dealing in sort of broad archetypes. And, you know, it's it's a curious thing. But it's been like, we're saying, 20 years, and hopefully we are moving back toward a more terrestrial sort of I hate to say it, but pedestrian characters that, you know, mimic the every day. Yeah. Yeah. I I think we have a ways to go. I think we're not ready for that. I mean, if anything, weirdly, like the second Joker movie was almost an attempt at that because he was not the whole point. The whole point was that he was just a broken person. An incel special in any way, or form. He was incel in that first movie. I was like, I mean, I'm not entirely sure Todd Phillips is an incel, like successful incel, but like. Well, the one thing I'm sorry. No, I'm not sorry. No, no, no. Yeah, we the jury's out. know. I didn't watch the second movie as much as I have. have. I'm definitely going to watch it because I want to do a real time pairing. I actually haven't told Dave about this, but I want to do a live viewing of that where we record the audio and compress it, you know, because I imagine he and I are both going to have some really acute I'm very curious to see it. Go ahead, Jess. Well, here's my thing. I watched Joker and I'm from the generation where we got natural born killers and these very violent movies that are making a statement on society. Joker was fine. I just felt like it was from that time. I didn't feel like it was properly speaking to the people of now. And I don't mean that. So I guess that's fine. I just feel like there is a lot of incel violence. There is a lot of violence to be addressed, but it just felt like it was more of a throwback conversation than the current conversation. And so I didn't really hate it. I just didn't know if it was using violence the proper way. And then in the second one, I feel like it tried to make a statement I've heard and I haven't watched it, so I'm not going to criticize it. I just. It wasn't going to pull me in. Like it seemed, it seemed old. It seemed like, what are you, who are you talking to? You're not talking to 20 year olds right now. I don't think I really don't like you and it may, and then you don't need to be talking to 40 year olds. So who are you speaking to? There are unfortunately a lot of 40 year old insults. yeah. I know. if you're trying to get to them, it's I don't know if that's annoying. Obviously, they struck it struck a nerve. Sorry. I've gone off on a film I haven't watched. I haven't either. I've heard I the first one. Right. And the feedback has generally been the second one. Even the people that sort of admire its ambitions of how weird and different and the fact that it did. Yeah. try to make a Joker sequel the way that it did are sort of like, the message isn't there, right? It's it's fumbling any sort of point and real purpose. It's just this. could be something truly unique and interesting and impacting. And instead, it's just weird. It's just like natural born killers. Natural born killers is unique, exciting, and I think and it's saying something, at least at that time, because I watching that as a kid. There's a critique of the culture, not just a use of the culture's elements, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was definitely a critique going on. And we engaged with it as teens, I think. so and a good segue back over. A good segue back over to Moon, I will say on the subject of not taking risks in Hollywood, I think one of the biggest things is like we say they don't take risks, but then these budgets are also one the biggest problems because like Joker made 121 million in one week and that was a bomb. Fall Guy, made a lot of money. It just wasn't enough because they spent so much goddamn money on the You got to spend less money. Spend less money. Take more risks. Yeah. Now, I do think the budget that's reported for Joker 2. The budget that it was actually greenlit for is a little bullshitty because it's $200 million. And Mad Max Fury Road was 150. And somehow, yes, and somehow Joker 2 is 50 million more than that. And I'm like, OK, one. I suspect they didn't actually spend all that money, but on paper that is the official budget and they probably paid themselves for internal services and bullshit like that to where it's like, okay, so not only do they get to write this whole thing off as a loss, but then they didn't actually spend half the money in the first place. You know, they just paid themselves for it. So I suspect there's a lot of shenanigans like that, but it does make the movie a bomb when it makes only $121 million because it needs to make back 200, which is nutter butters. Now, Moon, was $5 million. So let's circle back. And it's why it was a success making only $9.8 million in the theater. And then of course, was no one was expecting it to go and it made it on only 262 screens at its widest release, is really good. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there was a lot of Sam Rockwell fans. die hard. Yeah. I was a huge Sam Rockwell fan. And Spacey. And Spacey at the time. Yeah. And Spacey. And unfortunately, the voice of Gertie has not aged well. I forgot he was the voice until I was rewatching it. too. I'm like, someone's canceled on this movie. Someone's canceled in every movie technically now. Every movie, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, unfortunately. True. Well, he's probably well deserved. the. Yeah, it's why it's unfortunate because it is well deserved. But it's just like, you were so good. But damn it, man. I was glad he was just the voice because I was watching it with my daughter and she doesn't like that. You know, and so but yeah, but five million dollars is a is a nice risk. And I am a huge fan of sci fi that tries to like really. not be too claustrophobic, but I do like a very contained environment grounded contained sci fi is the best is the most effective sci fi. Yes, you know, Dave, I think you where you feel like you could know go go go Jessica. No, Dave. I just was agreeing with the lag. forget about the lag. I totally forgot about the lag. Okay, sorry. Go Jessica. Go. Okay. Okay, I was just gonna agree with you because you can actually see yourself there. You can envision yourself being in the same situation. It doesn't seem like an unrealistic environment that you could maybe be in. So I think it's very relatable when it's contained. I think that's why the moon is such an underutilized resource currently in terms of sci-fi because the moon, objectively speaking, is our sort of celestial object. mean, it is the thing we are closest to that is not ourselves as not Earth. So we have such an intimate relationship with it, but it is also so far away in terms of our ability to move and travel and distance. So it is this sort of perfect kind of setting and backdrop for the Wild West that is space. And, you know, curiously enough, in the 650s and 60s, the moon was that and I think because of budgets, because of technology, the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, we started wanting to go into hyperspace and go into other places and we sort of left the moon as a concept, as a grounding force for space travel behind and it looks like we may be going back to that, I hope. And it was nice. What I like about the setup of this movie is that the solution for our environmental problems. of climate change, even back in 2009, was to figure out this new fuel, clean fuel source on the moon. Right. And so that whole setup is we is the people on earth have figured out a way to solve climate change, climate crisis and by this simple solution, like send this guy this put this like you're going to be harvesting whatever it is they're harvesting. I'm still a little confused but until we deplete the moon at least till we deplete the moon. We're good. And they show the earth all like beautiful and green and and and and and then the you know, what are the costs and really like obviously if the cost is cloning one. I mean, I'm going to spoil now guys for real. Like if the cost is cloning one guy and making tons of clones. Now, first of all, I don't think you could do it this way, but I'm, I totally just suspended disbelief on that. you could just clone a million versions of one guy and just keep him up there to run everything. That's not a bad solution. Really? mean, more, more, you believe there's a Yes. No, unless you, and then I do believe there's a soul. So ethically it's like you've, basically left a horror crux all over hundreds of them. This one man has put pieces of himself up in the wind for this. By cloning these guys, the company knows that they have a three-year lifespan. Then they break down and die a horrible death. Then they just do it. They literally just incinerate them when it's over. It's interesting because we just did the TV show Severance. recently on this podcast. It's similar. And that same ethical moral quandary of you're creating a side of yourself that is just the laborer. Right. Right. It's like that is their whole existence. You in Moon, they implanted memories of having a better life, but it's not real. And they never get to they never get to actually experience it. They never get to go back to it. And in Severance, same thing. They work. And then it is that thing. It's you. but you have sectioned a part of your brain off to where that version of you only lives as a worker and never gets to experience anything else in life. And that they break down after a while from that because it's not a happy existence. It's terrible. Yeah. And it's like such a weird choice that the company made as well, because I was talking to my daughter about it. It's like they could have had two people that were clones and they could be in a happy relationship. and be satisfied with life up there and this is their existence and then they they're not like I'm going to go home someday like they it weirdly created all of this angst and longing and sadness for unknown reason. One of my notes was this is an incredibly dire and sad and existential kind of just nightmare to have this realization within the span of two weeks that one You're a clone. Nothing about you is original unique. You are essentially the embodiment of enslavement. You are, you know, a literal and actual cog in a machine. Every romantic, emotional memory, a connection tether you had is one, it has nothing to do with you, two, no longer exist. dangling sort of carrot that you have been considering and thinking about the entire time is no more. That was my only gripe with the film was the realization of all that wasn't big enough for me in the character. And it probably has a lot to do with the fact that, you know, it's just the sort of the ability to tell this story within two hours. But for me, I probably would have spent a little more time with that realization, but it wasn't, you know, wasn't missing or lacking. It's just sort of my own individual writer. It's interesting Dallas, because you see it's interesting. You said this about a recent, another recent movie we watched. said there was a reaction, the haunted heart where like the revelation from Matt Dillon. wasn't big enough for you when he realized it was all going to crumble. And I disagree with both, both that one and with this one in Moon. And that's because for me, it's I wouldn't react larger than that because what choice do you have? What does the reaction do? Nothing. And I think that's the thing in the moment when you realize that this is your existence and you've never known any you've technically you think you have known another existence. And he finally does break down in the I want to go home moment when he like punches the wall and that's his yeah when he actually connects with his daughter alive and then he realizes the his original is down there and has been living that life and he will never get to go down there and live that life himself like it's never going to happen. And I think initially there's so much happening in that revelation. where there's the not of course you got to go through all the five stages of grief right so like the the outlast should not be the initial reaction ever i'm not saying the outlash i'm saying there's there's dynamics to the response like you said they're the layers of grief i'm not saying he should have gotten angry immediately i'm simply saying there should have been a greater sort of depth to the response no but even an outburst or absolutely because you have to make because you have to make sense the subtlety remember you you have to make sense of the data And it's your emotional framework, not your rational mind. It's your emotional framework that takes the hit. that is what the journey of this movie is doing, is you are watching that happening in real time with these two characters. Yes, of course. And it's not a moment that it happens. It's all the movie where they're coming to terms with this and then realizing how to deal with it. I'm going to disagree with you almost You're clearly not wrong. And I'm not wrong either. I'm simply saying the moments. Everyone's just right. That's what we do here, by the way. That's it. In case you're unfamiliar, that is what we do. We don't enjoy being wrong and we are often right. I mean, for me, yeah, that's so true. For me, like when he's on that call, he makes that phone call and it's his daughter. And he she's older and he realizes his wife is gone and then he hears his own voice. It's like everything that hit was his life is gone. It's as if they were because he was imagining a young little child and a wife that's waiting for him, as you guys were saying. And it's just not even there. Like he couldn't even go back. to earth and get it. You couldn't even go back and fight. From a writer, director, actor standpoint, I needed a little more, and when I say more, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying more aggressive action, more reaction, more anger, nothing. I'm speaking in terms of the director's choice. I would love to have sat a little longer with him in that moment, even in stillness, because he's such a phenomenal actor. Why? Because that's what is satisfying in that moment. You've already you've already seen it. You've gotten that moment. That scene was everything. You don't need more than that. They want that. Well, and also he's got he's also got to know. But you've got two versions of him processing it too, which is also interesting. You've got this beaten down version who's been here for three years and like falling apart. Yeah, just realizing he has no future. He's dying. Nothing's as he seemed. So he's got to go through like just acceptance almost. And then you've got this other guy who's been angry since he got up, like because he realized right away that shit's not right. And he's just pissed, which makes sense because he's like that. He woke up angry. He didn't get coffee. don't know. He has the energy to be angry and to act and to come up a plan. And that's what he's doing. He's laser focused on getting shit done and getting out of this predicament. He wants to escape. And it's interesting. I thought it was interesting that he offered. I thought it was interesting. He offered it to the other guy first. because I had remembered it differently. Because I'd remembered being very angry at the end of that movie. And I was like, did I remember this wrong? Because I think I did, because I love the ending this time. It was so interesting that he even made that I thought that was just posturing. That's what thought. I thought that was just posturing. yes, I could. Either way is great, a great choice, you know, because they're both interesting dynamics. Just to shift gears here real quick, I couldn't get over the fact that how. how inspired by Red Dwarf this film seems. Like even, I think Dave, you said there was some sets that were used from the Red Dwarf production. Yeah, we'll get there, but they filmed it in the same studio that Red Dwarf filmed in Sheperton Studios, and some of the set was reused sets of Red Dwarf. Fantastic. Have you seen Red Dwarf, I'm sure you have. I don't know if I have. I'm like gonna, I have now get two movies to go. series. It's a series. It's a British series that has been on for like, I'm not kidding you 30. Okay, well, I haven't seen this, is crazy. least 32 years. but I'm gonna have to. So I gotta watch 32 years of television. Yeah, I Or it came out. Well, it started in, I think in 89 was the first series. Yeah, probably about 30 years. 88 to 99 Dallas. Yeah, 88 to 99. no, and then on Dave since 2000. Okay, it had a 10 year gap. Exactly. So it has been around for 37 years. But it just has this life that just won't quit and it's worth it. It's just worth it. So it's a comedy sci-fi. It's very comedy sci-fi. It's very Douglas. But the sci-fi is actually rooted in the beginning at least it's rooted. They play it fast and loose, but it's rooted in solid science and certain for certain arcs and lots of Lots of fun. OK. I'm gonna watch it. All right. So a few more notes about this movie. Maybe we'll see where this takes us here. But basically, Duncan Jones wrote the treatment to Moon. But at the time, he was doing a commercial, so he didn't have time to write the script. He really seemed to think he needed to pump this out fast for Rockwell. he and then his writing partner, Mike Johnson, who's his normal writing partner that did co-write Mute with him, was doing the Guy Ritchie Sherlock Holmes movie. at the time. So he started meeting with different writers and the credited writer on this screenplay is Nathan Parker. So they met a number of times. Nathan was the one that Duncan clicked with. In Duncan's own words, Nathan delivered a terrific sort of first draft of the script based on that treatment I gave him. And then we gave him my producer and I gave him some notes and he did a great second draft. And then basically I took over and I did drafts after that. So it was very collaborative based on very specifically, based very specifically on my idea. And you know, I was very happy with the result. Now, Duncan Jones is not a credited writer on the screenplay, meaning his final contributions were under a certain amount for the WGA. But he did the drafts after the first two by Nathan. And Parker has also worked on, I was kind of unfamiliar with him or I thought I was, but he did do the Jason Statham movie Blitz. The movie equals the horror movie Our House from 2018. then he's been writing episodes. Yes. And then he's been writing episodes of Underground Railroad, the new show on our house. said, hmm, don't know that one. Our house is so good. It's so well, it's very disturbing. Yes. Also very claustrophobic. Yes. Yeah. It's like about refugees who come to America and something bad happens on the trip over. And then the house itself starts to manifest that trauma is the best way for it. And then you're in a horror movie, but you're dealing with the past. All right. Things that have happened with this couple, this couple who is trying to acclimate to America and having a hard time. Sounds fun, actually. And if there's some genuinely terror terrifying moments in that movie, that was one of I watched that and I was like, I am disturbed on many levels. But but it was good. I didn't know this. didn't know he wrote both of these. That's interesting. So that is is Nathan. Those are his credited writer, of course, with any writer in Hollywood. Those are the ones he that got made and then actually has credit on who knows how many things he's actually worked on. So many other screenplayers. Pile of them. Piled high. then, of course, the ones where you're you're coming in to tweak something or you're the script doctor on or how many things you get paid for, but you don't get credit for. So they were budgeted for five million. Rockwell loved the script. He loved the idea. He signed on, although he almost had to drop out at the last minute, according to Jones. Jones, don't know why Jones just tweeted this as sort of a fun fact one day on his Twitter. And he's like, fun fact, we almost lost Rockwell at the 11th hour, but we did have Patty Considine as the backup that almost had to be the actor in this movie. then Rockwell did pull through. If you don't know who that actor is, especially during 2009 at that age, and he's roughly the same age as Rockwell, they're spitting images. yeah. yeah. They're very worth looking up. Yeah. They're very much worth looking up that guy. yeah, if you ever Google him. so they shot all this on studio location at Shepperton Studios. They did build. that entire Moonbase set, was 70 feet wide and 90 feet long, a full 360 degree set. It was claustrophobic for the crew, because remember, you actually had a full crew smashed in there with you whenever you were filming. So according to the set designer, he was like, yeah, the whole crew were not sad to finally let this one in, because they were all, they were like, they were ready to get off this set by the time it was all said and done. It filmed in 33 days. Fun fact, Gertie, they did have a model of Gertie that was physical for when it was stationary, but all of Gertie's movements are CGI. Which really surprised me. That surprises me too. Yes. And of course the smiley face, they had a smiley face sticker that was static that they just stuck on the model, the static model. And then they would animate it later to have all the different emotions. And they basically had to tell Rockwell that. He's like, so the emotions will change, but it's always just going to look at when he was acting with it, it was always just the smiley face sticker. my just always smiling at him. Just always smiling at him. Kevin Spacey, we will mention his name once, was trying to do, he was inspired by the HAL robot from 2001, of course, which is very much inspired by, you can tell. The exteriors were all done with a mixture of practice models and CGI. the guy who did the models is Bill Pearson, who worked on the Nostromo for the alien, the original alien. I'm very familiar with Pearson. And in Duncan's own words, it did cut. Yes. Yeah. So in Duncan's own words, all Pearson and all of those guys are still based at Shepperton. And they were during our film, they were saying, quote, Look, when your film is finished, we are probably going to have to close down. No one is using models anymore. There's just not any work to do. Now, thanks to Moon, interestingly, Duncan then says, I think all of a sudden off the back of our film, they seem to have a new lease on life. There seems to be a lot more films where maybe not the whole way through, but there are elements where they are going to be using more physical elements maybe than they used to be. So yeah, I think this was during the Renaissance of like, especially smaller films and lower budget films, like practical effects were cheaper and still are cheaper. And people like them, especially filmmakers really want to. So they want to use them. they kind of were coming back to life. But at the time, 2009, this was the from the late 90s into the OOs. Like this is where CGI was. They were trying to use CGI for like blood effects. Right. I mean, everything they could think of. Well, and you even have people. Yeah. You even have people on TV shows now to like, we'll just do that in the visual effects. And I'm like, why? Why? Why? Just put a put a car there. You know, don't be ridiculous. And I would say probably Moon, you'd want to credit. you'd to really, we want to shout out the first assistant director and his, their team or, and because like to keep track of Sam and the double like acting and the movement and the everything they did, that the amount of work that takes, and I just have some experience in it, the amount of work and time that takes to shoot as a crew. Like good job crew. Because it is, that is in a claustrophobic environment. I'm sure that was some stressful days. I do. the ping pong table scene, how Rockwell reacts with himself in that. Yeah. So he did say, he's quoted as saying that it was all in timing. And he very quickly learned that his first performance, whichever one that was, he had to give something audio, some kind of vocal cue for when the next performance had to react. Yeah. Because he wore an earpiece listening to his first performance while he was doing his second performance. but all he could do was hear what he was doing. He couldn't see. That's so interesting because you can use a double. Right. So you could have an actual actor to act against, you know, so that's an interest. That's an interesting choice not to have a double because I think a double helps a lot. Yeah. Except that just to have the I think it does. But however they pulled this off, this is one of the best split screen. Yeah, they did like this. You look at it and you're like. Okay, yeah, they're staying on different sides of the ping pong table, then they cross. And then they actually start interacting in ways we were like, holy shit, that is, yeah, the perfect timing of everything. You're like, okay. And Rockwell basically was he's like, it was all timing. And during those scenes, he would get so excited and you know, about the timing that sometimes he would forget to like, acting like there was more to it than the timing. And then he's like, right, the performance still has to be good. can't just be the timing is perfect. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. So the film actually does contain 400 effects shots, which is a lot. That is a Even by Hollywood big budget standards. Yes. So there were, there were a lot of, there was a lot of CGI blended with the practice. effects that were going on in this movie. And I think the exteriors, especially for 2009 now, can see it. It works really well. But you can see the CGI elements that they're painting over the really good models. But then other things like Gertie, everything about Gertie looks real. Every movement, every bit about him. I was stunned to be like, yeah, when he's moving around, we had the CG, that thing moving. could not move. I would have just assumed they would have gotten it looked kind of like it would move. mean, it's weird. Yeah, exactly. It is very yeah. I didn't find any more information about it than that. But that is Duncan's on record is saying that also shout out to Matt Berry and Benedict Wong from all the Doctor Strange movies who were the two corporate guys on all the video calls and Wong wearing like the worst wig in the history. I mean, it looks so ridiculous on him, but they do a good job. Matt Berry, the way, moon debuted. Matt, sorry, Matt Berry, by the way, is easily the greatest working comedic actor out of the UK. If you guys are unfamiliar with his with his body of work, just go Google Matt Berry. He's the funniest thing on camera in 20 years. Go ahead. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, he is a TV personality, predominantly. think I'm unfamiliar with him. yeah, last thing about Moon, it debuted at the Sundance Film Festival. It later made nine point eight million theatrically on 262 screens. It won the BAFTA Award for outstanding debut by a British writer, director, producer. And Duncan's on record to saying he had just started working on source code before the BAFTA win. And like no one trusted him. You saying like, yeah, I was the executives controlled every movement. The day it was announced that he won the BAFTA Award. He was like, he literally went to set and like, one told him off this from that day forward. Nice. Nice. It was like someone flipped a switch and everyone's like, do your thing. That's all it takes. Someone else said you were good. Someone else said you could do it. You got this award that means nothing. do your thing. Exactly. It's so silly. It's so silly. All right. So any last things we want to say about this movie? The only thing I will say is that for those who don't know Mute, the The thing that Moon became a prequel to essentially because it was written first, right? Now it was there is an epilogue to this movie in mute that shows the fate of the clones And the one who goes back to earth So when you watch when you watch mute you will get the somewhat of a epilogue slash continuation of this. are only loosely connected. They're a shared universe. So now we're going to go back down to Earth or wherever it takes. I think it takes place on Earth. But we do see the fate of the clones in one way or the other. And then the graphic novel continues even from there, the Maddie, Once Upon a Time in the Future. So I'm excited to try those very soon as well. Anything else we want to? say about this movie? Did, was, was, rockwell nominated for anything for this? I didn't see any. Don't think so. I he was nominated but didn't win for a performance for and not not like Academy Award or anything like that. Just like other smaller awards. Interesting. Curious nominated for quite a bit. Curiously enough, Trudy Styler was one of the producers who is Lady Sting, Sting's wife. And also, you know, could clones work like that? That's my last question. You make them. It's close. And we don't we don't have to dig into it. It's crazy because they were like, they implant the memory and they had this whole medical process. Right. But it's like they have a bunch of his foot because my daughter and I were talking about it. And they would add to like bird these clones then grow them into life size and to life size people. Yeah, I guess. And then I guess the. Implant, I accept. It's just a lot of on the ground. Well, I mean, I'm so curious. I would watch a whole documentary on how they harvested these clones, because I was like, how did they make them? And they start out little babies, because you have to start out as a baby. You I imagine at the time, the chronology of this. At that time. Right. The chronology. We have perfected ex utero. gestation, know, we haven't perfected it, but we've reached it, we can do it now. So, you know, 20, 50 years in the future may be clearly unless they've got a whole cavalcade of women just hanging around with their wombs, waiting for a baby, you know, for a clone. But you're right, I think, you know, the idea that they have to Yeah, because all those clones are there. They've matured. So they had to be sort of gestated at the same time. Sam Rockwell turns around and some I'm sorry. He turns around and goes, God, there's a lot of them. Yeah, exactly. I think that was a nod to the to the science. It was like, there's a lot of these hanging around down here. there there is like I would be an OK with the one they had ready to go because they have three years to make each one. Right. So it's like you can you can understand like some gestation time. Right. And so it's ready to go by the time next one, but to just have like all these adult bodies down there kind of a thing is like, we're clearly 40. But I mean, they must have just they must have lived three years. Yeah. And you don't want them to be too physically like, you don't want them young and hot headed or they only live three years. That's all you're using them for. So it's like, yeah, middle age is great. You're mellowed. You know, you're like, just just like do your job and then sign out. Yeah. That's it. But all right. So what are we pairing? What are we drinking with 2009's moon? Jessica, what do you got for us? I okay, I have two things, but I can just do one. Because I couldn't decide. Okay. So I did a cocktail. which is kind of a take on the Paley's Paley's wrath, which is a Hawaiian goddess or God. Yeah, I always like and The drink itself is kind of a combination of, even, and the reason I did it is because at the end, he's like, I'm go to Hawaii, I'm gonna go to Hawaii for you. And he's like, one clone goes, have a pina colada for me. And I was like, that clone is not having a pina colada. That clone is too hard edged for a pina colada. That's not what it's gonna have. He's got a lot of anger. And the whole idea of Pele's Wrath is that if you take something from the Hawaiian islands. you're gonna get it, you don't wanna take anything. then the idea that they took a piece of this guy's soul up to the mountain. so, you basically, I got a pineapple, because I'm gonna cut one up, but you crush some pineapple, and some pineapple juice in it, and I can't give an exact amount, I guess. And then you crush, I'm not gonna pull out everything, you crush up some lime, so it's lime, pineapple, and you're gonna put, I'm gonna put an Aperito Spice from- which has a little wine in it, but you can just do Aperol is really what the recipe calls for. And some white mezcal, because this is what I think clone number two is all about right here. Smoky and moody. And you do crushed ice and then some of these delicious maraschino cherries. Yes. So that's the cocktail that I felt was appropriate for this film. The Pele's Wrath. Beautiful. And then I did pick a wine because this is a wine show and I got it at Trader Joe's. It is a Trader Joe's wine called Figment. I drank it last night. Not all by myself. You in the clone, huh? I like it. Me and the clone drank this, guys. And it just kind of says it's not your imagination. And it's like, it's actually this really good fruity like spicy kind of like really great wine. It's a combination of Merlot and let me see, Zinfandel, I think. And I think it's just got this like, it's really got this dark texture to it, but it's got this fruity and vanilla kind of kick into it. It's a really good wine and it's really cheap. So like, I see this as like kind of a mixture of the two clones. and the vibe on that ship. at first it's like, this a figment of my imagination? Cause he's like, is that kind of real? He's like at the beginning, like what's going on. And also I think this is a great wine for the holidays. Cause you know, you have the first couple bottles of wine are very expensive or nice. And then you got to have the one that everyone's going to keep drinking all night and it's still can, can, it can still hang. And I think this one can still hang. So that's this. So figment, Trader Joe's and then my Pele's wrath. Pele's wrath. And by the way, guys, that is pH. figment, P-H-I-G-M-E-N-T, and yes, Merlot and Zinfandel, I just Googled it real quick. Yeah, I thought I was right, but I just wanted to make sure. And California wine. So, and I think it's just labeled California. That means the grapes can come from all over California. Yeah, it just says California. And this is the the 2022 one, because I know there's other ones, but this is the one. It says Lodi California. Lodi. OK, perfect. I said it wrong. Lodi. There you So Lodi. Perfect. So anywhere from Lodi. Perfect. All right. Dallas, what you got for? All right. So going into these pairings, I do kind of take a little, I don't know, circuitous route to these pairings. Sometimes I veer off course and do my own thing. And, you know, some of us are just unique. No. Something about Sam Rockwell, again, one of my favorite actors. And again, Dave, you and I were having this conversation recently about the actor sometimes brings that X factor to a role where it's almost impossible to kind of extricate them from the overall experience. You know, because we were in the under the sort of impression that you should be the actor should disappear. And yes, but you know, there are certain actors who just don't. And that's a acting that, you know, but it's not every acting school, but it's the prevailing acting school for a lot of the content we get. And You know, something about Sam Rockwell, he is uniquely Californian to me. When I think of him, I think of sort of a top tier, California, thespian actor, he just gives that thing off to me, there's a certain interest, there's a certain like, rebellious rock star quality beneath everything he does. And it's really satisfying to watch. Even in films that are bad, I'm just glad he's there, you know. And because of that, I wanted to go with something uniquely Californian. And I went with a blend. The blend is two classic California grapes, both planted widely throughout the state. We get lots of black aromas and blue fruit in the blend. It's nothing that's going to shock anyone, but the blend is a Petit Sarah and is it the Dell? And you know, it's yeah, I know Dave for those for those of you who can't see, Dave is just speaking my language all over this one. Yeah, wouldn't. Pizza raw goes with everything it doesn't, but to me it does. I mean to a certain degree you're right because you get both ends. Those those yeah, it's it's just. luxurious in a weird way, even when it's really accessible. Just great. It's sort of a this particular wine is sort of a cult California vintage. It is you get lots of that since so and the I think it's called the quinoa. It's a quinoa. Quinoa. Quinoa. Someone's gonna correct me anyway. no, not keen walk. No, do see? you know, if they had one bottle right before they parted ways in the rover, I imagine it would be something from an arid climate to kind of match the arid nature of the terrain of the moon. And also something very wavy and celebratory and accessible. So I went with the Ridge Vineyards Light and Springs Zinfandel blend. It is unfortunately about 60 bucks a bottle, but yeah, yeah. But and it's it's lovely. It's fantastic. But also at the blending lab where Dave is affiliated, if you guys are they shipping? Do they ship? I don't remember. they ship? Yeah, they have a is it the ZPS? Was it the ZPS? blend from 2000s in Petit Seurat from 2019. I would say you know, yeah, check that out as well or any which which is 55. So you're not saving a lot of money one way or the other. Yeah, so yeah, that's some but either would work. Yeah. All right. So I actually I chose I chose literally a winery and vineyard that's neighbors with Ridge. So I picked the 2020 dry Creek vineyards for clones vineyards in Fendel from Healdsburg, California. So I'm going to talk a minute about clones in when it comes to grape vines, because grape vines are nother but there are two ways for grape vines to propagate one is of course fertilization vines are hermaphroditic so they they all have male and female parts. and they can do either and be either at any given time. But reproduction does not create a genetic carbon copy, right? Just like with human beings. And it often will create different varieties because any vine can fertilize another vine. It doesn't matter if they're different varieties. You can even be genetically, or I'm sorry, different species of vine and fertilize each other. So you get, it's a crossing if it's a fertilization of two of the same. species of vine and that often will create a new variety sometimes if it's two different varieties. And then you can even get a hybrid if it's like say an American species of grapevine and a European species of grapevine. And we do that right now, we're doing hybrids because we're trying to combat climate change and American vines are so much better at it than European vines but they don't taste like European vines. So we're trying to combine the two and get the flavor properties of Europe with the climate resistance of American and trying, but that's all normal fertilization, just like, you know, human parents that create a child that is like you, but it's not you, right? It's not a clone, but vines can also propagate by cuttings. And literally you cut off a piece of the vine, usually the shoot and just replant it somewhere. And it grows an identical version of that plant if you cut it somewhere else. And these are called clones. Just like how if you want to clone a human, you cut a piece of him or her off and use that to it in the dirt. Make a gen and you do make a genetic carbon copy when you do it that way. Now, all clones can be genetically traced back to the original parent vine. Literally a single bud on a single. Vine that then you when you cut that becomes the shoot and you cut that shoot off and go grow it somewhere else and it is a carbon copy of that same bud and we can these days we can DNA test all the way back and know where every vine and every in every vineyard essentially came from if it came from something that's a part of when we started cataloging all these things now the new growths are then clones And different clones will, over time, begin to exhibit slightly different attributes depending on different climate types, different soil types. Like if you take it to new environments, it will start to adapt to that environment. So as you continue to cut and re-clone, you can then start to select certain cuttings and certain clones because they're exhibiting certain properties you want in that, like certain flavor types. berry size, cluster formation, disease resistance, climate resistance, you name it. So different clones are then further cloned while others are not. Now, even crazier, you can graft a cutting onto a different root stock. So let's say you have a vineyard of Pinot Noir and climate change, your Pinot isn't working anymore. It's just not growing well anymore because it's getting too damn hot. So you're like, fuck it, I'm going to grow Zinfandel. You don't just tear up all your Pinot vines. You chop them off at the trunk. And you leave, it's like the base of the vine, you leave the root system in place and the trunk, which is like a small tree trunk or like a large bush trunk. And you drill some holes in it and stick different cuttings of Zinfandel vines in there. You kind of seal it with wax. You melt some wax to like hold them together and they combine into a brand new plant that now grows Zinfandel. And it's no longer a Pinot plant. And the stuff above. is what determines what it's gonna grow. The roots are just the root system. And you don't wanna tear those out because you want a developed root system to grow good fruit. If you tear it all up and start planting from scratch, takes years to grow good fruit with the brand new plantings. If you take a cutting and just plant that, it's gonna be at least three years before you can actually have grapes to do anything with. Whereas if you just do what's called head grafting, where you stick it on and graft it, you can also graft. Like we've done American root stock with European vines because we have that disease resistance and it becomes a new root stock, but the above plant stays the same. So anyways, this is what clones are in the wine world. So what I did, this four clones vineyard is a 4.4 acre property planted in 2009. It is dry farm Zinfandel that incorporates four distinct clones that are called Bradford Mountain, St. Peter's Church, Primitivo, which is the Italian clone of Zinfandel, or technically our Zinfandel is an American clone of Primitivo, and Duprat, all on St. George rootstock, Bradford Mountain, St. Peter's Church, Duprat, these are other vineyards, so we basically took cuttings from them and put them into this vineyard, so they're all clones of those original vineyards from back in the day, and then of course Primitivo, which is your Italian cousin, or the clone of that Primitivo. So this vintage are a blend of those four clones, Touch of Petite Sarah and Alicante Boucher to round it all out that are all planted adjacent to the Zinfandel. This thing, it's rich. It's some baking spices, blackberry, blueberry, lingering white pepper, coffee, and cumin. The tannins are silky, body is full. It's rich, it's supple. I think I wanted something a little hedonistic with this movie. It's weird. This movie is very austere. It's very... It's one location, it's claustrophobic, it's essentially a one-man show. It's the moon, it's a sterile, dry, arid environment. And yet I wanted a wine that was the kind of counteracting that. And like, this is all rich and hedonistic and wonderful. It's balanced, but it's got a lot going on. And then the fact that I could find one that was made out of specifically clones that were even cataloged as clones, I was like, fucking A. This has gotta be the one. That's my the Four Clones Vineyard from Dry Creek Vineyards, which is right next to Ridge up in Healdsburg. Also going to set you back $45 for this bottle of wine. And you really do have to order from the winery to get the Four Clones. Dry Creek Vineyards, you can find some of their wines out in the wild, especially in California. You can find it in World Market. You can find it sometimes at a wine shop. But this Four Clones Vineyard seems to be one of their special ones, and they only sell direct from the winery. But you can order it online and get it shipped to you. And ooh. I recommend it. Beautiful. Good stuff. All right, man. That's what I got. That my is the my wine was the every man's wine, everyone. I mean, do have a time to. Today was just one of those episodes when both David and I were like, OK, 60 bucks. Sure. No, I'm to say, Jessica, there is a. Next time you go to Trader Joe's, because they all have it right now, and I know you're not far from me, so the Trader Joe's near you will definitely have this. It's a Truffaut Cabernet Franc. You find it in the French section. It's $5.99 a bottle, and it is amazing. I swear by it. It's so good. That is my, like, every time I go to Trader Joe's, I'm like, just tip it into the basket. I'm just like, uh-huh, uh-huh. It's $5.99, uh-huh. I'm taking another one home. So yeah, that is delicious. All right, folks, that has been Moon from 2009. This has been Jessica Mayson. And Jessica, where can people follow you online if they want to follow you? You can find me on Instagram or Facebook at Wicked Tree Press. You can find me at Monster of the Week on Substack. I'm on Blue Sky. You can look for me there. My website is wickedtreepress.com. yeah, and you can find all my stuff there. Fantastic. Yes, and own worst enemy feature film. and go hunt them down. micro budget, be aware of that, but we are definitely going to go that after this. Yeah, go find it. Thank you so much for being here, We love this. We will definitely have you back on again, maybe for Mute or we'll find out. But this has once again been Wine and we will be back next week with another Wine and Entertainment pairing for you all's entertainment. Take care until then and ciao for now. Later, guys. Bye. you you