Wine and Movies: YOU HURT MY FEELINGS (2023) with Charlotte Simmons

SPECIAL GUEST: Charlotte Simmons

If you love thoughtful movie Criticism with a capital-C, make sure you follow Charlotte at her own Substack THE TREATMENT

THE WINES:

2017 The Others Blend, Department 66, Maury, Côtes Catalanes, France

2022 Domaine Glinavos "Paleokerisio", Ioannina, Greece

And "G.A.L." Mocktail - Green Tea, Apple Juice + Lime Juice

Chapters

• 1:27 Wine Trivia Question of the Week
• 2:44 Special Guest Charlotte Simmons, Film Critic!
• 12:28 You Hurt My Feelings and Director Nicole Holofcener Backstory
• 19:34 Why This Movie?
• 25:25 Dallas' Wine Pairing
• 33:23 Dave's Wine Pairing
• 39:42 Charlotte's Mocktail Pairing
• 41:57 Lack of Ambition Being it's Own Ambition
• 49:19 Mirroring Real Life?
• 55:06 Being Supportive vs. Being Communicative
• 1:04:48 Evolution of Holofcener's Form
• 1:18:00 Wrap-Up
• 1:21:07 Outtake

Transcript

0:05

Are you not entertained? He's Dave and I'm Dallas and this is Ventertainment. We have opinions on just about everything. Sometimes those opinions are spot on. Sometimes they go down easier with a glass of wine. oh This is entertainment, the wine and entertainment pairing podcast. Welcome back to another wine and entertainment pairing for your entertainment. This is of course the podcast where we pair wine with entertainment. It is as simple as that. We always know what we like or dislike, but we rarely know why. So what better way to learn about that than by comparing different wines to different types of entertainment and compare how they both hit us and affect us the way that they do. I'm Dave, your W set level three wine professional. And I am Dallas, a professional writer and world builder. And now for this week's wine trivia question of the week. In last week's episode where we paired wine with the independent film Marshmallow, you all got to learn about a wine that was made by picking the grapes of an entire vineyard, no matter how many types of grapes, no matter if they were red or white and putting them all together into a single wine. The wine in question was in fact 50 % red grapes and 50 % white grapes, over 20 varieties of grapes in total. And now for the question. What is the name of this type of blend? Is it a monopole, a hodgepodge, a solera blend, or a field blend? One more time. What is the name of this type of blend in which the grapes are 50 % red, 50 % white? Is it a monopole? B. Hodgepodge C. Solareblend or D. Fieldblend. To answer this question and find out the answer, head over to our sub stack of entertainmentstudios.com, find this post on the You Hurt My Feelings movie with special guest Charlotte Simmons and cast your vote in the poll. Then scroll to the bottom to see if you got it right. And on that note, who the fuck's is Charlotte Simmons? I'm glad you didn't ask, but she is indeed our special guest for this episode. So allow me to introduce her anyway. Charlotte is a former professional film critic who has since pivoted to an all prayer, no coffee beeline for a screenwriting life, all while managing her substack publication, The Treatment. where she hopes to change the way we think about film criticism by decentering evaluation and opinion as prestige and instead focusing on the function of the form and what kinds of conversations the film wants to have. Charlotte is Canadian, which means she's a cartoon character and simultaneously a parody of that same cartoon character. She's been openly trans for seven of her 27 years on earth and her writing is primarily driven by an obsessive love for humanity. So I don't know what she's doing on this show, but. in this wrong place. Charlotte, Charlotte, Charlotte, welcome to V Entertainment. And kick it off by saying, how do you think film criticism is faring in 2025? Has anything changed? Or do you see signs of evolution and improvement via the wonder of what we call film stack since you have begun writing on the platform? Take it away. Sure, wow, lots of pressures on. Okay, here we go. Well, thank you guys, first of all, for having me on the podcast. This has been a blast already. I can't wait to dive into all of this with you two. um To answer your question, Dave, um I'm in a few minds about it, and one of them is allegedly coherent. That's the subtitle of this podcast. Yeah. So I think in my mind, this state of criticism is directly proportionate to the state of like the public's cultural relationship to film as a whole, which itself I think can only truly be examined in a microcosm of that whole. em Because if you you zoom out far and you look at things in the context of like, you know, mass audiences, rotten tomatoes, what have you, um then the state of film criticism is defined by, you know, relevancy and centering personal satisfaction instead of actual, like, engagement with the art. Right. um And this is reflected in the criticism itself because on this scale, I think people are still convinced that it's about expressing yourself criticism. It's not. Right. You Say that again, please. Please say that again. You actually want me to? Yes, 100%. People are still convinced that criticism is about expressing yourself. It is not. ah The mistake is believing that your appeasement is the most significant interaction between yourself and the art, right? Oh, you're just hitting the you're just hitting the nail in the head here, Charlotte. Oh my God. I hate to cut you off, but I have been screaming this internally in my own home and in my own scripts and works and essays for a very long time. So it's very good to hear someone from professional critic background scream it as well. So I will stop cutting you off and let you get. Absolutely. That's all we're for. I did back you up, Also, validation is going to be a big part of our conversation about the movie. Yes, it will. Which is interesting. it's true. um But anyway, um so contrast the mass audience Rotten Tomatoes uh lens with um the film stack community, which has so many incredible critics. I have so much respect for so many people on this platform. em Because these are critics who center the criticism from a place of like translating the film's ideas and intentions into things that we can more directly and tangibly grapple with. You know, it's not about what's good, but it's about what is, not about what's correct, but about what's communicated, like narratively and technically. Because why do we watch movies in the first place, right? I mean... Do we sign off on a mythology we vibe with and then move on to the next thing? Some people do. Some people. shouldn't. Right. General audiences, that's the swell, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when we engage with art, like it lives in us beyond our interaction with it. You know, the idea, what the ideas do, the form of the film. And I think when we write criticism, like real honest to God criticism, what we're really doing is we're writing a codex, you know, of what the film engages with and and how. that kind of I think when we do that, it allows the films of the future to approach themselves with more intention. which itself offers the next stepping stone of iteration. um So to answer, so to actually answer your question, Dave, yes, Filmstack has absolutely elevated the craft of film criticism because uh criticism is actually happening here. And that's what's important at the end of the day is that it's just happening somewhere, regardless of whether or not it's in response to. we'll call it assembly line criticism, right? Or like the opinion is the product, particularly if it's the opinion of someone with a name like uh Roger Abert, God rest his soul. Right. And there are things like obviously uh venues like Letterboxd had exploded the common assembly line criticism where everyone just gets to give their thoughts. Everyone gets to give their sort of almost emotional response to the movie rather than really they don't have to pick it apart. Right. They can just be like, I like it. I didn't like it. This is why I think I liked it or didn't like it why this movie is not my thing. It doesn't really matter. You can make up. You can choose how to engage on letterbox in places like that, but it's not the same as film criticism, right? Some letterbox entries can be film criticism, but most of them are not. ah And like, know, there's a place for stuff like that too, right? Oh, absolutely. Because it is how we interact sometimes at the end of the day. there's always, we can always be more nutritious in the way we think. Charlotte you are just giving us some little gems here today say that one more time for the kids please uh I forget what I said. so we can always be more nutritious. Oh, just fantastic, sorry, I'm gonna remove that. you just said nutritious too, because my thought right there was, you know, we have a substact that is very much like it is the entertainment industry, but also the wine industry. And we're that intersection of the two together. And both industries are kind of suffering a very similar conundrum right now, which is a sort of falling off of the mainstream, like the numbers, the sheer numbers aren't what they used to be. Right. Wine is not being drunk by as many people. box-off like theaters aren't being attended by as many people certainly not as they used to be right the totals are down and both industries are though going through I was just talking to someone about the wine industry where it's interesting because even though the numbers are down more people are signing up for formal wine education than ever before in history and there's like this rise in people wanting to know go deeper into it and know more and actually understand what it is they're drinking and really go deep into it. So that's growing. then the sort of like mainstream, just the people who want to drink like all they know is Cabin Chardonnay and they just want to drink it all the time. Those are falling off. And similarly, I think possibly with with movies and entertainment, you're getting a we're in an era right now where there's deeper engagement with what's being put out. But then the total numbers, that sort of like the more casual um connection to cinema has been dropping off a little bit. we're suffering sort of the financial margins suck. But then what we're getting in terms of engagement, in terms of like personal connection to it actually seems to be enriching itself. Like that nutrition is higher even if fewer of us are actually partaking of It feels like on both sides it's that age old sort of quantity versus quality thing. I think that usually has a lot to do with just general sort of slides in economic uh stability and you know those people who can spin frivolously in good times tend to fall by the wayside once things are shuffled and it leaves a core group of people uh interested in the art form in terms of screenwriting and filmmaking and also on the wine side, people who just want a deeper, as you said, a connection to wine because it is a storied story sort of part of our culture. So um it's a curious thing on both sides. uh Yeah. All right, so now Charlotte, you have chosen to discuss the 2023 feature film, You Hurt My Feelings, written and directed by Nicole Hall of Center. I think I'm pronouncing that correctly. I googled it earlier actually and you are... Okay, perfect. Okay. I watched one YouTube video where someone announced her and I'm like, maybe that announcer got it wrong, but I'm going with that. um yes, now a little bit of backstory before we actually start talking about the movie. I'm just going to give a little context to where this movie came from. So Hall of Center kicked off her career with the film Walking and Talking in 1996, a film produced by Ted Hope, by the way, speaking of film stack. That's right. produced by Ted Hope actually. Lots of her films were actually produced her films I imagine. yeah, since he got her started I figured that would probably continue for a while. Lovely and amazing, friends with money, I believe. Oh, he produced Lovely and Amazing. I didn't know that. yeah. Yeah. Yes. So on that note, Walking and Talking, was critically well received and Hall of Center's ability to write about relationships in an authentic way and from a female POV snagged her TV directing gigs immediately after that on shows such as Sex and the City, Gilmore Girls and Six Feet Under. Something that we recently did the pilot episode of Six Feet Under, guys. Hey, go check that out. Go check that episode out. We it versus we read. That's right. That's right. uh her episode, one of her episodes from Six Feet Under is one of my personal favorites, by the way. So yeah. Hey, hey, hey, there you go. So she then went on to make feature films, lovely and amazing friends with money and please give each more critically acclaimed and financially successful than the last, though it was 2013's enough said starring Julia Lewis Dreyfus and James Gandolfini in his final performance that would prove to be her biggest box office success. She had planned to do a second project with Dreyfus in the following year, but was sidetracked by a litany of other gigs, including writing the script for Every Secret Thing, directing her first Netflix film with Land of Steady Habits, then writing and almost directing How Can You Ever Forgive Me, which at the time starred Julianne Moore, but Hall of Center and Moore could not see eye to eye on the main character. It's reported. that Moore wanted to wear a fat suit and a prosthetic nose to match the real life physical appearance of Lee Israel, the subject of the film. And Hall of Center fired Moore mere days, apparently six days before filming was set to begin, the entire production or halting the entire production and putting it back into prep with Hall of Center eventually ultimately walking away from the project as director. Eventually, Mariel Heller stepped in to direct from Hall of Center script. with Melissa McCarthy taking the lead role. Then Hall of Center received an email from Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, who asked her, quote, Do you want to write a sword fight movie with us? Unquote. And her initial reaction was ha ha ha very funny. a Hollywood pitch, by the way, between writers. Yes. Well, and also for her, she's like, why are you asking me to write a sword fight movie? that makes, have you seen my body of work or read my body of work? I watched it last night actually, the last duel. yeah. nice. have yet to watch it. I really I've wanted to watch it this whole like I didn't even realize she wrote it, but it's always been a curious looking Ridley Scott film that I'm like, I definitely want to see you sometime. What what were your thoughts there? um You can tell which parts Nicole wrote and you can tell which parts everyone else did. There's like two modes to that movie. It's everything Nicole did and everything Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Yeah. got you on that note. So Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, then after she was like a very funny guys and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, this is a real offer. But then she said, well, then she told them, well, I'm really busy. And so they said, oh, it's only a month long gig. You just get to you just need to write 30 pages. And two years later, she was still part of the final movie and was working on it, apparently, throughout those whole two years. So more than a month long gig. But They needed her if you know what the last duel is about. It is a woman who is wrong. It says she was raped and then the men don't really believe her except for her, I don't know, is he directly her husband in the movie? is who the characters yes yeah Yes. OK, so then he fights. This was the last sanctioned duel, basically, um that was allowed because he has to defend her honor, even though all the rest of the male population was like, either doesn't believe her or who cares kind of a thing, I think is the sense. then the book that this is based on, she's really not much of a character. Like, she's not fleshed out. They don't really pay much attention to her. So they wanted Nicole to come on to be like, can you make this lady a real person, a real character and give her life? And so I'm assuming that reads in the script like her parts are with that character, predominantly Charlotte, would you say, or how did it go? I don't know how to answer that economically. Okay. fair enough. We're not here to talk about the last duel. So yeah, another day for the last duel. It's, It's... How would I even say this? That's our favorite phrase, my favorite phrase here, by the way. How to save this followed by five minutes of silence. Exactly. Yeah, it's the only language I speak, I think. uh Men in 12th century France just kind of sucked, is what I would say. That sounds about right. we haven't gotten much better since. Or 14th century. 14th century. guess, yeah. Right, right, right. Right. Well, in any event, we'll have to talk about I mean, we're going to watch the last dual someday. I'm definitely going to. So maybe there will be a podcast episode about it in the near future. We will find out. But after all. Charlotte will be back for that one. She will maybe. After all of that, Hall of Center finally wrote a second script specifically for Dreyfus. You hurt my feelings. The story follows a longtime married couple played by Dreyfus and Tobias Menzies. ah She's a writer. He's a psychologist. One day she accidentally overhears her husband say how much he doesn't like her new book. And this instantly leads to a crisis in their relationship. So Charlotte, why did you pick this one for us today? You hurt my feelings. What's your history with it and with Hall of Center's work in general? Sure. So the most correct answer as to why I picked this is because I already talked about challengers on my own podcast. I didn't want to go over too many of the same points there. um But then I had to like narrow it down to, like what's a movie I haven't talked about yet, but also a movie that I could talk about and with some degree of coherence. And You Hurt My Feelings was the one that came up for me. my third, it's in my top three of 2023, I would say, personally. And Nicole Hall of Center is one of my screenwriting inspirations, along with Martin McDonough and Charlie Kaufman, but then who isn't inspired by Charlie Kaufman? I would say Martin McDonagh is on top of that. His scripts are always just, when you hear what the movie is or what it's about, you're like, oh, okay. And then you watch it and you're just like, wow, this is much more than I would expect. Overdeliveries. Yeah. Every time. Every. It sharpens the bone always, if that makes any sense. Yes. So yeah, I picked up You Hurt My Feelings. I tossed it in, and I got the brain juices flowing. And now I'm going to try and spill them out here. Sweet. Beautiful. And Dallas, how about you? Had you ever seen this film before? No, no, I hadn't seen this film. I was familiar with there was a quote that came out around the time that Gandolfini died. And I think it was the sort of PR rollout after that in which Dreyfus was saying she was really interested in the indie smaller film space and kind of uh allowing her brand to kind of service those. as often as possible and I'm all for ah a billionaire using their powers for good. So ah and and so I as I said, I was familiar with Gandolfini uh film, but uh had never heard of this, uh but was was definitely surprised. I enjoyed it. You Hurt My Feelings, probably her most technically robust film and certainly her most meta, I would think. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Being a writer herself. Yes. And I saw a couple of interviews with her where she was like she basically expressed she's like, yeah. She's like, I my ego could not take something like this. Like, that's why it was such an interesting setup for me is she's like, What if this happened? And like, one of the things so I saw this movie in the theater when it came out in 2023. Me too. And I hadn't seen it since, but I did rewatch it for this podcast. But I liked it quite a bit. It was my first Hall of Center film that I had seen. Can you ever forgive me? How can you ever forgive me? She direct that, she did write that. So I had seen that before, but I had never I realized when Charlotte brought this up and I looked into, oh who did make this movie? And let's let's look at what their filmography is. And I was like, shit, I have not seen anything she's directed before. So I did go back. I did check out enough said and I was able to watch that because that's the other one with uh Julia Louis Louis Dreyfus. And then I also went back and watched her very first Walking and Talking. I decided to just like jump back to the very beginning because that's always a curiosity to be like, hey, where did they start? yeah. And enough said I liked quite a bit. um Pretty much. I think I like enough said as much just about as I like. Can you ever forgive me? I do agree with you. Can you ever forgive me is the most technically robust of her many films like she's. no, was talking about you hurt my feelings, being the most technical. sorry. Yes, yes, yes. I was too. Sorry. You are my feelings is the most technically robust compared to enough said enough said is I think on a script level and on a character level and on a performance level, very comparable. Like it's all it's just it just sings. It just works uh on every level, but very straightforward, very point and shoot in many ways. Whereas you hurt my feelings. She's doing a lot in this movie. You can tell she had some downtime before she came back to direct another film. And she was like rearing and ready to go, rearing and ready to go at that point. walking and talking, will say that one did challenge me a little bit. It's interesting to go back to see someone in their raw years, you know, where it's like they're just starting. You can see all the building blocks of where they're going with their writing, with their directing, with their whole start, with their whole oeuvre because of like, what are the things that she's obsessed with? What are the points that she... connects to that she continues to explore in her future movies. One thing we're going to talk about a little bit later. And one thing that I found really interesting having at least for right now in her career, because you hurt my feelings is the latest movie that she's made. Walking and talking and you hurt my feelings are the bookends of her current career at the time of this podcast recording. And they both have a lot of psychotic psychologists and psychology. Which I'm like, huh. I don't even know if there's that much in any of the in-between movies, but there's tons in these two specifically. um So that was really that's a curiosity that we'll talk about soon. But anyways, I've seen those three now for us to talk about. before we get into the nitty gritty of the movie itself, this is where we like to reveal our wine pairings or beverage pairings, if it's not depending on if it's not wine. And Charlotte, we're gonna go first so you can kind of see us do this and then we'll hand it over to you to do your own. But Dallas, why don't you kick us off? What did you decide to pair with You Hurt My Feelings and Why? All right. I texted Dave last night ah this phrase. This film is, I rewatched it last night. This film is uh ellipsis and I never responded, which I know upsets him. God bless him. I know he was so annoyed when I never complete a thought, but that is the complete thought. It was the complete thought at the time because I described this film as uh softly compelling. uh From the outset, I could tell that we weren't necessarily in store for any major upsets or twists and turns. It's clearly uh it's got a core family contained dramedy sort of aspect, but there's also this like seething core of of sort of uh dissatisfaction in each of the primary characters. And It's always interesting for me to read that or see that because that's generally where the most exciting stuff happens. And she does a really good job of allowing each character's individual sort of seething sort of core or seed uh intersect with the others. And it's it's kind of masterful, I will say it is understated, but it's kind of masterful. um I think the midsection of the film is very lively and uh active. There are some moments that really saying in the character arcs, like I said, weave around one another fairly well. The finish of the film is smooth. There's some great filmmaking here. I mean, there's some great shots in this film. There's some great lighting, all the things. ah Everything sort of rings true. uh And so in choosing a pairing, I wanted something that kind of mirrored that. In our last episode, I mentioned that early on in my wine drinking life and ah the GSM blends really didn't do much for me. So some may be shocked to learn that I chose this blend, but I chose it to compliment how broad the film felt on the surface. ah But when you really sit with it, there's some real masterful stuff happening ah here. And so the grapes in this blend are of course, Grenache, Carignan, Syrah and Mouved. They are sourced from the winery's 300-acre estate in the Côte-Catalan, a sub-appalachian of the Rousselan, where the vines range in age from 12 months to 65 years. They are matured in 30 % new French oak and bottle age for five months. The primary nose is sort of strawberry and uh sweet and pleasant like the film, but At its core, there's some real acidity happening there. The tannins are grippy like the characters. Once they do get a taste of something that is that meets with their dissatisfaction, it's difficult for them to let it go. ah The Red Fruit, of course, is the star of the show, because at the end of the day, I think this film is very sweet, very lovely ah and also approachable. So I chose The others blend from 2017 from Department 66, which is the label owned by winemaking wonder can Dave Finney, who is purported to be responsible for the prisoner wine sale to the constellation brands ah and various other sort of sales over the years for millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars. This guy could do no wrong in the world. Oh my God. Within the span of three years, apparently he had four different hundred million dollar sales, multi hundred million dollar sales. It must be so nice. If you're out there listening, Dave, drop in, give us some money. Anyway. uh Sponsor sponsor sponsor Sir. uh So the origin of the winery is that Finney was on a trip to Mari, France, which is nestled in the Pyrenees or in Taos, which is also known as France's department number 66. When he encountered this land, uh Mari is a historic agro region in the old vine tradition with Grenache, Syrah, Mouved and Carignan. The region's warm climate is tempered by the blustery tremontae winds with which whip across the valley. These winds see hillsides black schist, which is a metamorphic rock combined with the difficult terrain often result in low yields with granache dominance due to its hardy nature. The general consensus is that the wines from this region do age very well. And honestly, not unlike this film, I think my first viewing left me a little. Underwhelmed. until the second viewing and it really really sort of was like, okay, she's she's surface level is one thing. But when you start to realize that it's really about the interplay between this sort of seething core of each of these people, these sort of transition moments of transition, because every person in this film is in some sort of moment of transition at the time of this film. And so those interactions are really, really interesting and kind of subtle if you don't. pay attention through your first viewing. So yeah, that is the 2017 Others Blend from Department 66, essentially a GSM Blend. That's what I got for you. What you got, Dave? Sweet. And I will also say Mari in France is one of the main regions for a thing called Vindo natural, which is one of the great dessert wines of France. They always come. It takes decades to make this dessert wine. So, for example, you can get a it is literally a nineteen eighty five vintage for just 40 bucks. It's one of the latest vintages that has been released because it takes that fucking long to make the goddamn thing. um And it's actually quite it's Gurnash based and it's delicious. It's amazing. But they put it out in glass what are called Demi John's. So these huge glass containers outside in the sun, they let it cook in the sun so that it fully like cooks it browns. It cooks and makes the wine kind of completely indestructible going forward. So these things can age for like 100 years or more once it's been released. So. Um, actually I just got my parents, uh, for their anniver, their wedding anniversary, they got married in 1970. I got them a 1970 bottle of this stuff because there is, it will still be a hundred percent good. There's no chance it's bad. And there are two anniversary dinners in this movie. yeah, sure. But, but, this is a good gift. I'm sorry. This is a, this is a well thought out gift. Not like- Those were great gifts. I think those were great. uh second time, the second time around, that was great that they continued the tradition. Because now it's an inside, very meaningful joke. But also still meaningful. It's more than just a joke, too. And this is something I'm sure we're going to talk about when we get to the film proper. it is something that can be so scarring in the moment if you survive it and you get past it and you're stronger for it. It is now something that connects you, right? It's like that thing that it's it's meaningful on a level that it could never have been that meaningful if the scarring, the negative moment hadn't happened and you hadn't had to deal with it and get past it together. um So on that note, you hurt my feelings. This is about human beings communicating. It's all about human communication. It's all about communicating with each other. It's about communicating in a relationship, the fact that um it's also how we fail to communicate when and if we fail to communicate, um and then what we have to do to fix that when that occurs. I chose a line that not only felt right in terms of taste and style to pair with the aesthetic and tone of the movie, but also matched some of the messaging and themes, at least as I see them in this film. So this is going to take a little bit of explaining, but I chose a Greek sparkling orange wine. Do, do, do. I got to do it backwards. Da, da, da, da, da. Yay. So this is, this comes in a little 500 milliliter bottle and it's just sort of like semi-sparkling. It's a traditional Greek wine. is Paleo Carisio. I'm not pronouncing that correctly. That is Paleo Carisio and it is, that means, that means old fashioned in Greek. And this is a very traditional semi-semi-sparkling off dry orange wine that they do. So this is a, it's six days on the skins. It's a blend of a predominantly a white grape with just a little bit of a red grape thrown in there. So it's 97 % of a grape called the Dabina, which is white and 3 % Vlahiko, which is red. And so it's mostly an orange wine, quote unquote, which is skin contact white skins from the grape, but that 3 % red skin contact. six days. Six days is going to be longer than your typical rosé, but much less than a typical red wine. So you're going to get more pigment from the red in there, but it still looks it looks like a slightly deeper amber color in the ultimate end. And this is this is a blend in a natural esque style. So but it's not full. It's not a full on natural wine. Right. And because This is where I think this wine really comes in. Not only is this, because it's off dry and slightly sweet, it's just, it was very easy drinking while still having a depth of flavor and still having a complexity to it because of the tradition and the fact that it is traditional. I'm like, look, this is your older relationship. This is your, but at the same time, I can watch this movie at a drop of a hat. As much as it is complex in its themes, it's not a hard movie. It's not a movie that, um doesn't challenge me in an off putting way. It doesn't challenge me. Like there's nothing about this movie that's sluggish. There's nothing about this movie that is like, can literally, I don't have to be in a mood for it. Like it's just, I can watch this movie anytime. So I needed a wine that I could drink that way as well. And I think that off dry slightly sweet version is, but what this movie is about is compromise. And This movie is all about, when we and again, we'll talk about the movie a little bit more here in just a moment. the whole crisis happens because of the husband compromising initially and not being 100 percent honest, because he's like he knows what he knows, the frailty of his wife. He knows the ego there. He knows he's like, I need to I need to do and he doesn't do it in the best way. But he does do it in a way where he's like, I think this is going to be best for her if I don't say this thing to her face um and let her just, you my opinion is not the most important opinion anyway, or at least not in terms of the success of the book. Like that book could succeed with whether or not I like it. So this is my compromise here. When she finds out about it, it becomes and, you know, he could have he could have given her feedback in a more diplomatic way. That would have been the better compromise where it wasn't just completely held back. So it winds up being more of an issue than it had to be. But at the same time, we learn later in the movie that she had done a very similar thing to their kid, to their son. And this is what allows her to see the perspective of how well-meaning the thing is. this type of a, quote unquote, lie is still something that makes for what you think is going to be a better life or a better world for that person, whether it's child, whether it's your significant other. And this is a wine where it's about compromise to make the better wine. And it's not just being a rigid philosophy of natural wine. This wine is minimal intervention, but it's like, we'll intervene if we have to. And they do. They add minimal sulfites, but they add some. And it makes for a wine that's going to have more longevity. It's going to stay fresher for longer. They do put a little bit of residual sugar in there because it's tastier. it's better. And so they're like, yeah, we're gonna leave a little bit of sugar in there because it's fucking better. And these are all things that are kind of frowned upon in the natural wine world. You do not do this in natural wine. But it's the thing of like, yes, we're making a better wine, but we're also going to compromise where we think that is the better choice. We're not just going to hold to a rigid philosophy of how things should be. And similar to like never lie. That's not ever actually a good idea. You know, like we've always had those movies like Liar Liar, things like that, where we get to see Jim Carrey. Like what actually happens if you truly 100 % cannot lie? And it's a disaster. I wind up alone in a cave. Yes. So I think compromise and learning how to do that. this wine, by the way, this wine, it's like tasting. It's like eating a slightly sweetened baked good. It's so good. It's it's pear and orange baking spices, touch of brown sugar. It's just this wonderful, easy drinking, semi sparkling orange with that touch of sugar in there. There I just I this is this has like one. This has like the teeniest bit left in there. And this is, um yeah, I almost drank this whole thing through just the single watch of the movie. And it's fantastic. And it spoke to me not only did it match the aesthetic, but I thought it matched some of the themes. So Charlotte, that's me. That's Dallas. What do you got for us on You Hurt My Feelings? What do I have for you guys and you hurt my feelings? um Wait, am I supposed to name the drink now? Okay. uh So I'm sober. And I have a gooey brain, but it is not gooey in the way that I can like equate liquids with a movie. So I'm in uh to do this for a while, it gets easier. Curious little corner of the internet, yes. uh So what I so when I watch this movie last I paired it with uh My beloved Cove cream soda, which is soda except it's healthy. It's good for your gut health It has good probiotics and it tastes like vanilla I also considered pairing it with the last mocktail that I had which is the green mamba that is Green tea, apple juice, and lime juice. And if you line up those words together, it's G-A-L, gal. This is like a girly movie, right? This is a chick flick. um I literally came up with that on I'm also going to have to remember that for the next gal good-o movie that I If I want to, Gal Gadot. There you go, there you go. So yeah, whatever I have on hand really, probably water, hopefully cream soda and God willing, green mamba. Very nice. We'll have to get that recipe and put it on the sub sack for the gal. I like that. I like that. Well, it's a mocktail. was the mocktail was like a pre-prepared mocktail, like in a a bottle or can, or did you make it yourself? I got it at a gay bar. Which is an optimal place to watch a Nicole Hoff Center movie Yes. All right, beautiful. Well, let's get into the movie now. Let's talk even more at length about this movie and let's talk about everything that it does, everything we think it's saying. Now, one of the notes you left for us here, Charlotte, is and this was a curious one for me because I'm not I need to know more about what you meant by it on this one, which is a lack of ambition being its own ambition. I think most of my notes are like that. Not all of them not to be fair some of them I just read and I was like, yes 100 % But this one I was like, huh, maybe maybe but I need to know more which is a lack of ambition Being its own ambition. Where does that come from in this movie for you? And I'm assuming uh as a as a running theme of Hall of Center uh Movies, but what does that mean to you? What where is that theme in you hurt my feelings? um So Nicole Hall of Center's, I've seen a lot of people talk about Nicole Hall of Center's movies in a way that it's like, because you know, like she deals in very like quaint suburban dramas. um And I've seen people describe her movies as not particularly ambitious. um But my argument is that lack of ambition can be its own ambition in the way that when you tighten the uh when you tighten the setting that much, you don't have as many knobs to turn. So the knobs that you are left with are knobs that you have to turn very acutely. So that's to get a different blend, we'll say, each time around the soundstage. refined focus. Like she's dealing in a very specific focal point with very specific parameters. And because of that, the minutia, I think, of the various characters and their interplay becomes so much more important. And so I do agree with that. Absolutely 100 % that that lack of ambition is its own study. You know, she is focused in this realm for a very specific reason and not in comparison or contrast to any other form of narrative play. So, yeah, totally agree. And it would be different too if, sorry, I was just going to say, it would be totally different if uh she neglected to um explore the remaining knobs with the depth that she did. But she tightens the focus so that her specific focus can fly as high as it does. Right. Right, right. I will say there is, I mean, you can see if you do go back, because I did go back and watch Walking and Talking and I'm like, yeah, this has evolved. Like this is, she's not just making the same movie over and over anything as simple as that. um And there is, there's also a really big argument to make. There might've been a time, like maybe around the time Walking and Talking was coming out during the explosion of the Sundance Indie Cinema, you know, heyday. where a movie like this, might've been like, well, there are lots of people making these types, these style and types of movies, but that has fallen dramatically in recent years. um so it's really great that she has stuck to those guns where she's like, these are the kinds of movies I'm interested in making. um And she is one of a very select few at this point versus. Maybe there was a criticism to be had at the time where it's like, another Sundance darling. It watches like a Sundance darling. And it's like, yeah, up to a point, up to a point. um But at the same time, again, walking, talking very raw is like you can see all of what she's going to become and what she's going to do. But the way that enough said and you hurt my feelings sang to me like walking and talking was like someone warming up on their trumpet. You know, it wasn't the orchestra yet. It was kind of like your high schooler. Where you're like, and you're like, oh God, I hope they get better. And yes, they got better. Stick around, she got better. oh And you can absolutely see the evolution of her control of form. Whereas her earlier stuff, it's figuring out what she's interested in, these odd couplings with her characters. She's very interested in intergenerational friendships, for instance. Oh, were we going to say Dallas? You know, this is gonna be a controversial take and no one beat me up for this, please. But uh first viewing, ah my crosshairs for this film were, it felt like, God, this is horrible territory. I'm venturing here to here. We lost Dallas, I just, I don't know what happened. Ah, story of my life. Trust me, story of my life. It's like, don't say that Dallas. um It felt like. This is so horrible. I believe I'm about to fix my mouth to say this phrase with everything It felt like I'm God maybe shouldn't spit. I can edit it out. It's so funny. I'm sweating because it's so funny to me and it's so true in the initial sort of light viewing. But it felt like what you would get if there were a female Woody Allen who decided to direct a Hallmark film. Okay. All right. uh the Hallmark film- the Hallmark film's pushing- Let me tell you why. me tell you why. It's because when you watch the Hallmark films, right, it is a very specific parameter, a very specific street, a very specific family, a very specific as we were talking earlier, speaking earlier, there's very specific sort of uh focal point that is, you know, it is sort of the subject. And that holds true for this film. Right. The difference is Because of the subtext of the characters and because of the things she's focusing on, there's just an infinite amount of depth to the characters and to the world. So when I say Hallmark, I don't necessarily mean the sort of lighthearted fare, although on the surface, this film does come off very sort of lighthearted and, you know, red fruit and bright and lovely and sort of New York pastoral, sort of so to speak. But when you start to uh really investigate how these characters are sort of abutting and interrupting one another's uh chaos, for lack of a better term. There's just so much more depth to it. So that's where I get sort of female Woody Allen with the hallmark thing. So if anyone wants to complain, my name is Dave Baxter. uh Just just just tag him on so on the socials That's right. Light them up. I think I think sort of sort of to that point uh I Find I find that Hall of Centers films as a whole not just you hurt my feelings, but I think they sort of make us confront the nature of how severely Like fictional stories tend to be juxtaposed with real life Right because her films are very very naturalistic very true to life. That's good Actually, inconclusive endings. And like her focus is on like the dialogue and the potential of the human quirk to like manifest on the tongues of these characters. Right. So but like the average film, like with like like a proper like like a climax action movie. Yeah. Lots of contrast with real life. Yeah. Whereas. Well, to that point on this film, specific, like the climax comes at like the end of the second act and then it keeps going because there's just there's more there's more to do. There's more to explore. So it's not just hitting the beat and being like, and we did it and we're out and roll credits. Yeah, um I think without that, because Hall of Center's movies are like real life, really. And I think without that friction between story and real life, it becomes difficult to really pin down em the ways we talk about these kinds of films. so, in my mind, it's best to contrast a Hall of Center film not with real life, but the context of her filmography. because then the deviations she makes within the subject matter stand out to us more. So if we're talking about something like, I don't know, like the land of steady habits, then we're not gonna talk about the way her characters talk because all of her characters talk like that. We're gonna focus on the logistics of giving grace and when we give it, when we withhold it and stuff like that. When we talk about something like friends with money, we're gonna talk about. uh What like class relations? Right. For the most part, tends to be a really big critical piece. You're using the vocabulary she's established as a filmmaker and writer to judge future works. You know, it's the baseline. And, you know, it goes back to your point about film criticism in that we do this thing where we are constantly comparing to, you know, the most sort of exaggerated versions of that thing rather than, you know, it's where it lives sort of terrestrially. And I think you're right with her work. makes sense to compare and contrast it to, you know, that first uh baseline with the first film, the second film, and you can't go wrong in terms of criticism ah doing that. So yeah, makes sense. Yeah, and um what's so interesting about You Hurt My Feelings specifically is that this is Hall of Center's like subject matter, but her control over like form and narrative has matured to a point where there's a framework to be studied as well. It's the whole thing. The whole thing works in like and um the whole thing works. in a dramatic irony sort of thing. The comedy, the drama, the relationships, all of it is centered on people not knowing something that another character does. And sometimes it's the audience that's that character because we don't know about the anniversary gifts. When they give them around, they know that these gifts are... That's what I'm looking for. They know that these gifts are full of shit, but we don't know that yet as viewers. So there's that interesting element that, yeah. Yeah. Well, and even on that note, you have the difference between like the giver still thinks the gift is a good one at the beginning. Right. And it's only the receiver that's like we've hated this for for forever. Like it's been forever since we've actually enjoyed receiving this gift. But it's that again, the choice of lack or the lack of communication and why you choose not to confront it, never to bring it up. you quickly pass a point of, and I think this is an interesting thing in this movie in specific, is it really explores in specific how quickly you pass a point of no return if you decide not to talk about something. Like once you've given the gift more than twice, you don't say anything. the mythos of the relationship. Right. Well, and then the next year, now that they're giving to you the third set of leaf earrings and then the fourth set of leaf earrings, when can you break it to them that none of these were a good idea? And next thing you know, you have 12 sets of leaf earrings and it's gone way beyond the bounds of being of being easily able to bring it up. But it was probably that way after like the second gift giving like you had to bring it up pretty much right away or. you hit that point, same thing with like his giving feedback about the book when he said it's great and he loved it once. Now it's too late. Like now there's no way to diplomatically take that back without now you just have to stick to your guns that it's great. And if that ever comes out, but then when and if it ever comes out, it becomes even uh an enormous problem versus a tiny problem. It's it's. Sure. It's so curious that moment for me, guess we're just gonna jump to that moment. We're already an hour in. It was so curious to me because I think oh one of the sort of secondary theses of this film is loosely related to the concept of role. Like what is your role in this moment? And as her husband, it's clear that he took on the role of uh wonderfully supportive uh sort of champion rather than critical eye. ah And it's, you know, I do think, like you said, David, that, you know, the first time that gift is given, the first time that critique is given, you know, maybe it is earnest, but he makes mention in his sort of diatribe about the book that she's given me basically 20 versions of this thing. And all I can say is, yeah, it's great. And that's a very significant role, I think, myself as a creator, when I go to a partner or a friend, I'm not necessarily looking for a definitive sort of perspective on the thing, because at the end of the day, it's mine. Right. I'm going to decide what the edges are, what the parameters are. ah But, you know, Dave and I are actually have been having this conversation. We had a long talk one day in the car about uh notes on one of my scripts. And I always preface things by saying, look, I don't actually care if you like it or not. That's not that's that I don't care. I don't care. Like, don't care. Don't care. Zero. Imagine liking things. I know exactly like it's gonna be a thing regardless. I just have very specific points I need to hear from you about and of course Dave was like no how dare you I gotta tell you I just like it you know you see how easily I've been in a minute that Charlotte but but I will say in terms of the film I'm just not leaving that as a recorded statement without saying something. Come on. course, Dave, I'm joking, calm down. ah But ah I do think that moment was so significant in terms of their relationship because, you know, she is the partner of this creator and that creation is her world. And his role is that of, you know, unbelievably supportive, you know, champion. So uh I didn't understand why she was so upset. But I get why everyone else There's so there's so many there's so many angles like it I could uh to the, welcome to the crew Charlotte go shoot. I'm um So the first question I want to ask is, um so Jonathan and Carolyn, the dysfunctional couple that uh Don is serving as the therapist for, their scenes, they always look at Don and basically tells him that these two are being ridiculous, which breaks the veneer of the irony. That's true. Yeah. Whereas this other family, like it, whereas like Beth, Dawn and uh Owen, Elliot, Elliot, son. You know, that is is a very loving family unit. I think I think that's I think that's very apparent. Right. And so I think I think the film has an I think the film is like using irony as like an indicator that like having having this like um this veil of like not being completely honest is what's holding this love together almost. Does that make sense? absolutely. Sometimes that is the adhesive in moments, you know? Yeah, absolutely. we've all seen relationships and even in real life I know I've heard of lot of like marriages fall apart with creative types because one of them is hypercritical of the other. Right? Yeah, one of them is just like this, you you have to write better, you have to perform better, you have to do something and they're like and when it comes out, like after they divorce or after they separate, then that person comes out and it's like, yeah, they were, they could not quote unquote support me. in the way that I needed. there is the extreme other end of that angle. But also going back to the psycho, the him as a psychologist and what he does with his patients. I do think the movie was also, I think in my take on it was that the movie was trying to show that he was a little stuck in. Support without giving advice, yes, giving real feedback. Yes. And he had to break himself of this utterly passive. utterly detached, utterly like he was he had started to not care and not be engaged with his parents to the point of parents with his patients to the point where he couldn't remember what the backstories were. Right. He starting to get them confused and mix them up. And so this was him being just too far, like reclined in his in his psychologist chair, his therapist chair and being like, I'm just here to listen. and to say supportive things, but not be active in any given solution or feedback. And so that was something that I think those scenes were also trying to compare to what he needed to to switch up in his life and kind of like kick himself out of a little bit is like that's sometimes a great idea. And it's not necessarily that like you being supportive and not giving her really, really brutal, honest feedback. It's not necessarily that you needed to do that per se, but maybe you have been on autopilot. Right. I think a moment that really sort of thumbnail that was the end when he finally opened the bill from the couple. It was like ninety three thousand dollars. And it was like, wow, ninety three thousand dollars for them to show up and just talk about the same things and not feel like they're getting anywhere. So I agree with you, Dave. One hundred percent it that idea of being sort of passively supportive, even in a professional setting like he was. After a while, it does become autopilot and it probably doesn't help any of the relationships without some sort of retuning or retooling at some Well, and I think it was it was translating into his family life to absolutely where it's like he was on autopilot with them. Very supportive, very gentle, very sweet, very nice. Like he goes plainly a well-hearted, person, but so disengaged and inactive with like because even the gift giving where where it was on autopilot, you were just giving the same gift every year. And it's like, did you want to maybe come out like once in a while? Give it like think about like Brainstorm like anything and that is so all those signs of just being like coasting coasting coasting because because on the other hand my other thing to mention is like plainly he was not wrong about his wife either she was fragile Right finds out about it her response to it is so because like Alice you were saying I'm not I didn't entirely understand what her issue was with it and like I understood what her issue was with it But it was so extreme. then, of course, she's like, and I don't want to deal with it. I do not want to immediately. Right. That's probably a lot of verbal abuse from her father talking as well. yeah, that's true. That's the other point. Yes, that's another point. then but also, you know, she had written a memoir to be so I think she had also on her character side, she had gotten used to wallowing in the victimhood and the misery of the thing. And that was that had become a way to deal with any sort of conflict or negativity was to like, I'm going to because that was my that like my thing is like, I can't like I can't fall asleep. without attempting to deal with the issue, an issue, if there's an issue that's like very present and right there. And she wanted to go indefinitely, like somehow go through life just sitting. I can tell you Dave cringed at that moment. I can tell you right now, he cringed at that moment. I can't. I'm such an active. He's just coursing through his veins, gotta say something? I love it. but you can't solve a problem in an evening, in a moment, in a new thing like But you gotta start the process. You gotta start the process. You gotta be trying. And sometimes part of that trying is recognizing that right this moment, you gotta back off and just let it And then come back to it another time. And sure, that happens, but she was very active. Again, the difference between like him, she wouldn't even tell him, like she wouldn't tell him that there was, what the issue was, that there was an issue. Like so much of the avoidance, so much of the just sitting in Yeah, agreed. But in her defense, she just had, I guess, what, a 12-year veil, sort of curtain pulled back. So wasn't she needed a little time. So I totally understood that. Yeah, was very, very good sort of subtext throughout the film. Very good character subtext. What about you, Charlotte? What other thoughts, other things? uh This is mostly in like her last two films, which again, like you can see em the evolution of her form. I'm really interested in how she utilizes television stars in her films. Agreed agreed Yes, was Catherine where did Catherine Keener come from? I don't know off the top of my head. I don't know either. She's another one of those indie darlings, but I do think she was she was on a television series early in her career uh Her two most recent...was enough said? Like her last film? Yeah, you're right. um But like either way, you know, Tobias Menzies, Julia Louis Dreyfus, like these aren't these aren't movie stars you that are like these. And I'll see you. Yeah, like these aren't these aren't people that like you go to the movie theater like once every however long and get them like these are people you hang out with in your living room every day. Yeah. And. know, television is such a talk-heavy medium, and Nicole Holliff Center is the director that is so deeply interested in the possibilities inherent in the act of talking. m Right? um I have notes here that kind of like streamline my thoughts. Take a minute. The magic of editing, it will seem like you didn't even take a She's brilliant! There's no pause! Shays are my shade. Yeah, think her examination of talking together with her centering of women, women is especially fascinating um because Nicole Halloff center, like in my view, she's not like interested in highlighting her own storytelling abilities so much as highlighting all the different, like I said earlier, like all the different ways that the human quirk can escape a body. and how significant it is that it can escape that. That is such a quality these days. Everybody wants to tell you how great they are. Like Nicole Holliff center dialogue, you will never ever, ever like more than anyone else, you will never ever mistake that for AI. And when you further consider like what she's interested in portraying across her body of work, be that problematic women, long live problematic women, by the way. The mother in this film you could tell she's a problematic woman from way back um odd couplings and friendships. She's like... In her de-romanticization of everyday life, she shines this warm glow on the gnawing imperfections of it. with film and Hollywood in particular, there's this presence of glamour and the of Center's films allow people, specifically, like significantly so, to sort of break free of that glamour through the act of very mundane talking. Yeah. Right. Well, and even if you watch like a generic rom-com, like the imperfections are always seen as like problems, like they have to be solved. Like those are the things that you're like, you're going to get past and become the perfect. That society needs to bough out. uh Exactly. And in her movies and it's much more about these are the things that make life wonderful. These are the things that make relationships and especially when you can you can solve problems or get past the issue. Like that's what makes them so rewarding and makes them so so loving is that you had to go through those things that you it is difficult. It is hard for two human beings to um me in Dallas. very hard to do a podcast with another person, let me tell you. But when it works, it works and you work through it then you're like, have a conversation with another person so yeah But it is true, like even going back to a couple things you mentioned there, like going back to walking and talking up through enough said and into you hurt my feelings. um You know, walking and talking is even if anyone watches you hurt my feelings or enough said she is starting to and I think a part of this is maturity as well. Like she's getting older and more mature. And so her relationships are more mature relationships. And she's commenting on those types of relationships. You the the sun. has a young relationship that's a little bit of a teeny bit of a subplot in this movie, but she does not dwell on it very much. It's not something we're actually here to look at anymore. But that relationship is something out of walking and talking, right? Where it was like those were messy relationships. Those were like the things that you the the kinds of relationships that I think in your youth are incredibly rewarding and are incredibly educating. But then you even think back like, uh, Catherine Keener and leave Shriver in that one, they're sort of on again, off again, weirdness and like leave Shriver's character, just the complete strangeness or not, not strangeness, but the complete like him finding himself and her just putting up with all of the stuff he's doing to find himself through, through his, his porn obsession and his phone sex obsession and his, not his issues with commitment. And she's got her own issues, but they're also weirdly happy to figure it out together with each other, even if it's got to be on again off again. And that's something that you look as an outsider looking in, you look at and you're like, that is just dysfunctional. But is it or is it just part, you know, is it just one of the many kinds of like very everyday relationships that do happen out there in the world? And I think you find that in her. Like the hump of getting the hump of like getting over the issue is less interesting to Nicole Hall of Center than the logistics that comprise yeah Yeah, yeah. It also her work particularly well this film seems so optimistic, passively optimistic, you know, it really is like you said, uh you know what I mean? It's it's these two characters end up sort of abutting and you expect things to go really left. But as you said, Charlotte, it really just then becomes about watching the logistics of getting back to some sort of balance. play out, which again is very rare in contemporary storytelling filmmaking right now because it generally what we end up doing is exaggerating that journey to get back to you know that you get too happy ever after. And so, and with her, it's the opposite where it's like, even if she's and she, she does like to end it with people being in a decent, in in a fairly up spot, but the promise is not that all these ups and downs don't continue. That is the point. Right. Yeah. Yes. baggage is still there. Right. And well, and then something bad, it will. happen in the future, whatever that is, another crisis, another catastrophe, another something that you'll have to deal with then. No, because that is, that is life, that is relationships. is what it See, because of this experience they had in the movie, they're gonna tell Elliot that his play really sucks. That's what I hope. Right, right, and that will not work as well as they thought. It's sequel, you heard his feeling. You heard his feelings. Right, actually what's gonna happen is we heard his feelings. We heard his feelings. That's it. They both came down really hard and just send him into a fucking spiral. Yeah, I want to see that one. um All right. Last notes from us folks here. Anything left that we want to say about the movie? Any any wrap up final thoughts there, Charlotte? I'm sure there is somewhere I've never seen walking and talking. That's that's something you should That'll be fun one for you. think going all the way back to the beginning Yeah, I did seek it out, but I just could not find it. eh OK, I guess you're in Canada, so I'm not sure what the availability is there. I found it. I just rented it on Fandango. So that was an hour. Like it's not it's not streaming for free anywhere where I was either. So that was that was still something I had to do. Out there. go ahead, Charlotte. no, was just going to say, I guess up here it's a case where I have to legally acquire it. Ha ha ha Just acquire it. You just have to acquire it. You just have to acquire it. can leave. Yeah, yeah. No other word. No other words are necessary. So does what's I'm checking her IMDB now to see what she's got coming down the pipeline here. ah And I say that because I would really like to see her. I would really like to see what she does with something I hate, like uh the great Gatsby for some reason, I think she would. We did that though. We can't go there that early. We've just done everything, okay? This is not me asking for her to do it right. No, no, no. But that's not franchise. You're saying a reboot of something that was probably was a risk to begin with. uh Yeah, I can't see us doing another Great Gatsby adaptation anytime soon. Oh, please. I got more faith in that. the reason I say that is because I'm not just not a fan of the book and all the movie film adaptations just are just ridiculous to me. I think because the something something night. I always forget the name of the one that's much more. The device. Say that again. I'm Scott Fitzgerald's Captain Underwear Captain Underpants directed by Nicole. Yes, I'll watch that one. What's that? Directed by Zack Snyder. Oh gosh, don't get me started. ah Anyway, but I say that because I think what that Book Lander is the night is Tinder is the night. I would really like to see what she would do with that book simply because I like her style. I like I don't think she works with other people's Stuff though. I do of course that that seems like a line She is like zero has zero like she doesn't adapt but I mean even like on her own steam She doesn't seem to adapt anything. Has she ever adapted anything Charlotte to your knowledge? Land of steady habits wasn't an adaptation, right? no i don't think so Only if someone hires her to do it so because can you ever forgive me obviously based on a memoir and uh based on a novel. She's never based anything like of her own volition. Right, right. To my knowledge. But yeah, I would love to see something like that in her hands. uh Will likely never happen for many, many reasons. But I could see myself enjoying honestly anything she does. at the moment, I'd like to see what she does with great Gatsby because that is a random thing that just crossed my damn mind. I'd like to see what she does with a post-apocalyptic setting. Ooh, zombies? We got zombies? Not zombies. Zombies would work. I think I would love to see her write dialogue for zombies. I like it, I like it. I like it, I like it. But just like where her settings are like, like I said earlier, these very quaint suburbia backdrops, how would her characters, how would her dialogue, would her... Street in Brooklyn during a zombie apocalypse. That's the film. Zombie movies and post-apocalyptic are usually following predominantly right the humans and like the non monsters and like their dynamics with each other How much do they trust each other? How much do they help each other? How much? post-apocalyptic talking. Right? Yes. Right, precisely. How does it change from person to person, relationship to relationship? Yeah. So get in touch with us, Nicole. We have thoughts for your next project. Yes, yes, yes, yes. All right, everybody. This has been. Seriously, thanks so much, Yes. Of course. Yeah, no, this is a blast guys. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. And you can find Charlotte Simmons on thetreatment.substack.com. That is her sub stack where she writes on a weekly basis. And if you like everything you heard today and you like what you even heard about her thoughts on film criticism, you can see it in action every week at thetreatment.substack.com. is Charlotte Simmons. Thank you so much for being here today, Charlotte. Thank you everyone for listening. We will be back in one week with another one in entertainment pairing for your entertainment Please also make sure to follow or subscribe if you have not done so already Recommend us to a friend or family member because word-of-mouth is the organic way of growing and that is the best way of growing It's so much better than marketing. Don't make us market. We hate it So just recommend things to a friend or family member do our work for us. That is why we actually love you And once again, don't forget to follow us on Substack because our own Substack, entertainmentstudios.com, that is where you're going to find the Wine Trivia Question of the Week on the post for this episode, which drops the same day as this podcast episode drops. You can go over there and vote in the poll or see if you can answer the question. The answer will be at the bottom of that post. See if you can get it right first, though, Honor System people. And then you can also become, you love what you hear today and you love this quirky little line in entertainment pairing thing, you can become a paid subscriber. That is only two bucks a month or 1960 a year. Or you can become what Substack calls a founding father or what we call a produce er. Yeah, we worked hard on that one. So that is our produce here. Fifty dollars a year. And for that, you get a shout out on every episode and you get to commission. an episode and tell us what you would like us to cover. So shout out to our first three producers. have Jessica May Son on MonsteroftheWeek.substack.com where you can find her horror novelist and graphic novelist extraordinaire. Jessica, you are amazing. Also Kate Ruschel, who you can find on survivesonwine.substack.com. Go check out, she is a Portuguese wine expert. I sell Portuguese wine, but she is more of a Portuguese wine expert than me still. Yes, the hearts. She did it. uh Apparently the guests can do this on Riverside. No, not at all. Well, you might Dallas, I can't because I'm the host. It doesn't work for me. See what works for you. Do the little h- No, not doing it. can do a thumbs up too, and that seems to work, but it does not work for me. right. Anyway, and also Paul Callum-Kiarian, who has his own podcast Wine Talks with Paul K. where he has a new person on in the wine world every single week. Go check out his podcast and we will check you next week, folks. Ciao for now. Once again, thanks so much, Charlotte. We are signing off. To answer this question and also find the answer. Okay, that's what's wrong. Hold on, I gotta re-edit this. Hold on one second. To answer this question, head over to our sub stack, theentertainmentsstudios.com, find this post. Time out out out to answer this question and find out the answer? because we're not doing the answer on the podcast anymore. They have to go to the post. Fuck, that's right. Sorry Charlotte, deal with this. We said something last week. Don't re-edit my edits, god damn it. I did it for a reason. All right. You should redo them sometimes ah To answer this question and to find out the answer head over to our subs tag. Okay, right you