bought one of Courtney Daniels movies just to support and it was I think something like it was $4.99 or $5.99 or something really affordable. So I was like, you know what, fuck it. Let's just let's let's just own it and not worry quote unquote on it. Let's just own it digitally rather than rent it for $3.99 or I could own it for two bucks more. And I'm like, yeah, let's just own the dumb thing and let's do that. Maybe maybe that's the good segue to Lister's is that that would be the perfect like if if if Lister's was available for like one ninety nine. You know, they wouldn't they probably would have made. I don't know. That's that's maybe that's the question that we'll discuss, but right. I'm curious if it wasn't three, would it be as popular as it is? Well, we're going to discuss that and we're going to discuss what some of the repercussions and what they're sort of fighting since they put it exclusively on YouTube and um how the industry and some of the gatekeepers are struggling with their own internal rules of what that means and what they can classify it as, what they can define that as. So on that note, let's get started, guys. Let's do it. A lister is an extreme birdwatcher who lists all the birds they see, usually in a single year. And when they get especially obsessed, they will divide their lists into where they saw each bird. So all the birds in a specific subregion of Georgia, for example, and then they can list the same birds by trying to spot them in subregions of other states and countries to boot. Brothers Quentin and Owen Reiser. learned of the existence of extreme birdwatching in 2023 when Quentin, while high, discovered a bird field guide in their family home and then decided, you know, the best way to learn about something was to do it at quote, the highest level unquote. In birdwatching, the highest level would be a big year where you try to officially spot as many birds as possible in a single year. And the most competitive place to attempt this was the lower 48, AKA the mainland United States. The score to beat at the time of their big year was 751 birds. Now, the average experience of the kind of person who would compete in a big year is someone who had already been birding for 24 years. The Reisser brothers started that very year. and decided to live out of their car, travel the entirety of the lower 48 and learn all they could about the sport of extreme bird watching. Quentin said, quote, the whole thing kind of started as a joke, but we fell in love with birds and bird watching. It is a lifelong passion now, unquote. On January 1st, 2024, the brothers hopped in their 2010 Kia Sedona minivan and left their Collinsville home to track birds in every region of the US. By the year's end, they had logged 38,757 miles with a $16,000 budget from savings and Patreon donations. The pair spent their evenings in public parks and so many Crackle Barrel parking lots. They estimate that they ate approximately 400 cans of tuna. Now, most big year competitors spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in a single big year. They did it on 16,000. They then compiled their experiences, the birds they saw, the birds they didn't see, interviews with other birdwatchers they met, and the controversies of the birdwatching communities and put it all together into the beautifully shot, surprisingly entertaining documentary, Listers, a glimpse into extreme birdwatching, which they posted exclusively on YouTube for free viewing. The doc received 1.3 million views its first month on YouTube. They have since fielded offers from producers interested in bringing the film to Netflix, HBO or Amazon, but they weren't and aren't interested in selling it at this time. Owen Reiser said, it's not a good deal for the filmmaker. If from the get go it's a commission project, it can be a good deal. It's flattering for sure, but hopefully we can leverage that into the next project, unquote. Having the documentary available for free on YouTube has other benefits. It makes it accessible to everyone. Quentin said, quote, it's been kind of shocking and overwhelming that so many people from outside the birding world have enjoyed this film. One of the best things is when people reach out and they say, I've never had any interest in birds at all, but I just downloaded the Merlin app, or I just got binoculars. That's been crazy to see, and it's actually getting people into bird watching, unquote. Quentin and Owen have also published a field guide of their journey and the birds they saw along the way. This equally irreverent, funny, and beautifully illustrated guide with a slightly not safe for work cover is available from Amazon and Barnes & Noble. Now writing for Slate, birder Nicholas Lund called the documentary, quote, the most talked about birding movie in ages unquote, and compared the film's style to the gonzo journalism of Hunter S. Thompson and internet creator Andrew Callaghan. Tyler Austin Harper of the Atlantic praised the wildlife photography and called it, one of the funniest documentaries I've seen in some time, unquote. Harper also stated that beneath the film's stoner facade, and it does have a stoner facade, Quentin is constantly stoned, both of them are constantly stoned, it contained a serious message about the negative impacts of social apps like E-Bird on hobbyists. And Listers is the independent documentary sensation that we are here to talk about today with a very special guest from the indie film world. We will introduce him and get this combo started right after our intro. We shall be right. Isn't that ventertaining? Yes sir! We'll have a real good time! He's Dave and I'm Dallas and this is Ventertainment. We have opinions on just about everything. Sometimes those opinions are spot on. Sometimes they go down easier with a glass of wine. This is entertainment. The why and entertainment pairing podcast. Welcome, everyone, to Vintertainment. This is the podcast where we pair wine with entertainment. It's as simple as that. And today we have a very special guest, the one, but not the only because his kind of non-dependent or non-dependent, get it, non-dependent instead of independent. We're going to talk about that in just a moment, because his kind of non-dependent filmmaker is having a bit of a renaissance right now. This is the one, but not the only Avi Seten. Avi has. Avi has a BFA in film and television production from New York University's Tisch School of the Arts with a minor in philosophy and an MA in English at Lehigh University. All completely fucking useless. Good job, Avi. He has since worked as a filmmaker and product manager at Google, taught documentary filmmaking to graduate students at Lehigh University, taught screenwriting at Sokapa, the Los Angeles teen summer arts camp. He worked as a story logger on a reality TV show, worked as an editor, script supervisor, and assistant cameraman on films, TV shows, and commercials, among other freelance industry jobs. And he now has his debut feature film completed and currently being submitted to festivals, The Big Break, which you can follow at Avi's Substack newsletter, also called The Big Break. and can be found at Nandi Uprising, that is N-O-N-D-E, just like non-dependent, short for non-dependent, nandiuprising.substack.com and thebigbreakfilm.com. Now, what exactly is Nandi? Let's talk about that. But Avi, welcome to entertainment. How you doing this afternoon? And are you ready to talk about Nandi movies and wine? I'm ready. Thank you so much for having me, Dave. Thanks, Dallas. Happy to be here. Awesome. So Dallas. Yeah, so again, this is the first time Avi and I are meeting face to face. You know, I'm very familiar with the legend and I've been following it. We are curious here, Avi, what actually brought you to Substack and now Filmstack and how do you personally for the people listening define the non-D movement? But let's start how you got to Substack, start with how you got to Substack and Filmstack. first. Yeah, so I, I, I filmed a movie about a year and a little over a year and a half ago, which is the big break. Um, production was August, 2024 September. Yeah. Um, so the way that I, it was a 20 year project in a lot of ways in the sense that I wanted to make a movie for 20 years. Uh, and finally just got around to like, fuck it. I'm going to make it. Uh, It's just something that I need to do. I knew my wife was pregnant and a lot of it was just like this is. Now or never, I want my I want this part of my life. I want my son to know this part of my life, like the part that wanted to be a filmmaker his whole life. Yeah, it was just very important for me to make a movie. And I didn't really think much beyond that. And. Right, exactly. Especially because then you won't do it. Then you won't do it. Don't think beyond that. Because if you knew how hard it would be, how much effort, how much work. But I'll be clear in that, like my entire crew was my wife and my brother-in-law. Neither had ever worked on a film set. They never set foot on a film set before. They were on entire crew. Two of my four actors had never acted before. this was just luckily I had my own equipment. So, you know, this was we got an Airbnb for a week and, you know, it could not be a scrappier production. Yeah. But after we filmed it, I was like, holy shit, this is genuinely like I I love it. It was really special. I really felt like the movie needed a life and it was far better than I expected it to be. was genuinely proud of the outcome. Yeah, it actually exceeded what I expected it to be, which like never happens in life. Maybe like twice in my life I've set out to do something. I've actually exceeded my expectations. I was like, you know, I was familiar with like what you do with an indie film 10, 15, 20 years ago. go to try to submit to Sundance. Like this isn't like a Sundance movie. There's slam dance like I don't even know if it's a slam dance movie. I was like, get our festivals even. And I'm out of options. Yeah, it's like I was starting to question the whole like distribution ecosystem. I was like, what is, what do you do today? So long story short is I think was probably on Reddit. I started seeing like Ted Hope's articles basically. Shout out to Ted Hope. Ted Hope, mega producer, old school indie producer who's produced over a hundred films, 150 films, of that nature. Yeah, and he's kind of spearheaded what we're about to talk about with the whole Nandi thing, but yeah, keep going up. And he's 100 % the reason how I ended up on Substack, because I was reading his writing and I was like, this is exactly like the stuff that's speaking to me and what my situation is with my film. uh So I started reading more and more of his stuff. was like, okay, I'm going to make an account on Substack. really, this seems to be the right place to be. my account has gone through many iterations, but uh I think it started as the big break. You've only met us in the latest iteration, this is like our third iteration as well in the last like two years. So yeah, yeah, yeah. But my original account wasn't even my name. was like I didn't I haven't had social media for since like the original Facebook. So was like my wife was basically running the sub stack and I was like, oh, this isn't really like a social media where you promote. So was like, I guess I have to like really embrace my personality. So I eventually have my own account. And yeah, that's how so that's how I ended up on sub stack. Basically, Ted Hope. All right. And for you, and for you personally, when you found Ted Hope and you started to understand what he wound up coining the Nandi movement, how do you define the Nandi movement for our listeners? So I might, don't know if this is like, I probably don't have the same opinion that I think most people do. think, uh you know Charlotte Simmons, ah she wrote something I thought was, She has been a guest on the pod. Everyone go check out our episode on um you hurt my feelings. My feelings, yes. Oh, I have to see that. That episode. ah Yeah, she's a she's a very important voice, I think, in the movement. there was like, you know, somebody who I won't mention, like criticize was criticizing the movement and was saying like, this is like, drink the Kool-Aid of Nandi. Yeah. And her response to it, I thought was the most like, this is exactly how I feel, which is that I don't non-dependent in and of itself does not exist. And Charlotte, you're listening, sorry, if I'm butchering what you said, I apologize. But to summarize, was like basically what I think she was trying to say that like non-dependence in and of itself is not like it's not a real thing. But um I think. that part of it, a lot of people might push back against and that might be like a sort of uh a comment that would be provocative in the community. But I think it's true. In many ways, I just see it as like sort of a rebranding of indie, ah just because the word has lost its meaning. I think a lot of people do actually. In the conversations we've had a lot of people said. Yeah. So I get that. Yeah. Sorry, go on. No, I mean, that's really, I think that's really how I see it. I sometimes feel like I am butting heads with people when I say that, because I think people really want this to be its own movement. I think it's just indie film. Like you talk to somebody who's not in the film community and you ask them, like, what independent films do you like? What have you seen? It's just... It's changed so drastically from what it used to be 20 years ago, 15 years ago. That it's just the word India has lost all meaning. And so I think it's fair and appropriate that a new term comes along and sort of helps bolster this. And the only other thing I'll add is that I do think like hardware is getting cheaper and cheaper. anytime, anytime that happens, you know, you get French new wave, you get the digital revolution and the late 90s, early 2000s, there's always a revolution that comes when hardware becomes accessible. when new groups have access to actually do the thing when you so you've democratized something that has allowed that new voice, that new perspective to suddenly flood, flood the market is too extreme a word, but they can actually put some product out there and that people will notice, will see, and it will be visible. And then that can cause a stir of some kind. Yeah. They transformed the market, I would say. I think the other thing with the non D movement kind of has sort of shown us is that the idea of the gatekeeper, right, which we've sort of built our entire entire, you know, industry on is no longer really a thing. And that really attracts people. It's like, because prior to this, it's you find the studio, you find the producers, and you work the chain and you, you sort of follow all those steps that everyone else follows and to varying degrees of success. But because of that, and the fact that the barrier of entry with tech is so much lower. People are just sort of drawn to this movement. But I do agree, it's sort of an outcrop of the indie movement, at least again in the conversations that people have difficulty believing that the non-dem movement is its own specific thing. Which, which to Avi's point, it's kind of a rebranding. Right. So like there's definitely in the Venn diagram, there's crossover. There's no questions. Like probably a lot of crossover. But it's just like, what's your mindset? How are you approaching your independent film or your independent um endeavors? And one thing that occurred to me recently, we just had the other day our first like work in progress. film screening um at a wine bar. So like a filmmaker came and like showed like four to a group. We had about 15 people that showed up. We had 25 registered, 15 actually showed up. um And to like watch this work in progress, like sound wasn't finished. was like, it was not a locked edit, no picture lock whatsoever. She's like, no, no, no, this is for the feedback kind of a thing. um And it was at a wine bar that had given us the space for free that we could do the screening. And then There was a slight push, I remember originally, where she was like, can we get like sponsorship for like free wine at the thing? And I was like, well, you know, they're already giving us the space for free. wouldn't like people don't have to buy wine like they can show up and just drink the water. That's fine. You know, speaking of drinking, drink the water. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Don't drink the wine. But if you want wine, you can, you know, we can patronize the shop. And one of the things that I had that I've been thinking in my head is, know, when we are po bro, independent artists. And you know, we're trying to stretch everything as much as we possibly can. We don't, we might, we might be okay financially, maybe. But you can't just dump that into a film, like you're okay financially to pay your bills, right? And to like pay your pay your mortgage, pay your rent, whatever it is, pay your car insurance. And then you're kind of like, that's about it. I'm doing okay there, but I don't have a ton of disposable income. Um, but we sometimes get trapped, I think in the old school independent mindset where it's like, everything's going to be handed to us. Right. And so we will, I think the main distinction in my head between Nandi and Indy is, you know, someone who is given everything for free and doesn't have to give anything back in return. What's the definition of that? It's a dependent. Yeah. Right. And so you have to, if you're a dependent, you will be dependent on the venues, the distributors, on the whatever it is that because you're not, you might've made the film, but then if they're just giving you everything on a silver platter, it's like, okay, you have no, you don't have any power in that relationship. You have no stake. You don't have, we're gonna talk about Lister's here in a moment, but you release something free on YouTube and make your own millions of viewers and fan base and followers. you can now turn down the offers to take your thing to Netflix to Amazon and you're like maybe the next one, but not this one. Well, I think I think this is the key to all of this. And I like what you were with Dallas was touching on, And I think it's a appropriate pushback that non-dependent is like it's different. And and um the the the micro budget aspects of it is enormous because you really don't need to depend on anyone up until distribution. And this is where I think we haven't quite solved it. And maybe when distribution is solved, even if it's free on YouTube, YouTube is owned by Google. I mean, it's you are dependent on YouTube. If distribution is solved in a non-dependent manner, then I think I could fairly say that this is no longer a rebranding and an actual its own new way of release. But distribution is a beast that nobody can quite figure out yet. No, no. Outside of, again, self-release in some way, shape, or form. But you still depend on the platform of YouTube. the platform has to exist. Someone had to create it and make it something that you could then use in some way or another. And then even that comes with its drawbacks, which we'll talk about here when we get to uh Lister's properly. um But on that note, you've already talked a little bit about your big break feature film, Avi. But. When you went about filming it, you you had a crew that had never stepped foot on a set before you had a cast. believe there was only one trained professional actor, correct? Yeah, yeah. And the rest were. Yeah, go ahead. uh Yeah, so I wrote the script very much like uh knowing how I was going to film it, who was going to be in it, uh knowing that I could do it in one location with the equipment that I had, with a crew that I could train. So I wrote all of the roles for specific people. Now, only one of them actually ended up acting in the film. So originally there's four characters. One of them is AI and I did not originally know it was going to be played by a human. But Tim, a friend of mine, like former colleague who's an AI engineer, I talked to him for advice and like over a series of conversations, he was like, just get a human actor. And then I was thinking, I was like, it should be you. You're perfect. Yeah. he said, yes, I have no idea why, but he absolutely kills it in the movie. So. So he took on that role. A friend of mine that I wrote the role of Doug for took that role. uh I had originally written uh the role of Travis for another friend, but he was unable to do it. So I had Trevor, who had uh a little bit of acting experience, ah is a friend of a friend and they both lived in New York. So I had him like basically meet the guy who I wrote the role for and like shadow him. smart. uh Express character study. Very nice. Yeah. And then the lead role, Charlie, uh I knew I needed like a professional actor to like hold the fort. And so Luke Scholl, who is that has that role. I knew him like 15, 20 years ago from like when I was a student, like when I made a student film that he acted in and I had seen him over the years. Like he's had a bunch of college humor videos or funny or die. You might recognize him if you see him. Absolutely hilarious guy. And I was like. I reached out to him, he was living in Atlanta and he's like the one professional actor that stars in the movie. All right. Well, real quick, give us if you if you can just some energy behind the big break, log lines, tag lines, the energy, the inertia, the genre, what you got. uh Tragic comedy is how I describe it. uh It's about uh a man who is married to his AI partner and his roommate uh invites a social media addicted friend to stay at the house. So it's really about um two people who are attached to their phones in completely different ways. Yeah. The big break is that referencing like trying to break away from the phone? The addiction. It has multi meanings. ah got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I figure. OK. All right. Especially cool. Cool. So and last thing you were talking about how you didn't think this was for Sundance, maybe not even for Slamdance. So what is at this place where the movie is because it's picture locked now, correct? Yes, we, we spent, so I, the post-production experience was very, different than production. Production was six days, post-production was a year and a half. Right, uh I've had to find people who were willing to work for equity for the most part. We just got a colorist and a sound mixer who's doing it for free because he liked the cut. So a lot of this was just getting people excited about it. So it took a lot of time. Sorry, what was your? So the question was, what are your hopes at this point? oh for the immediate few near ish future? What are your hopes for it? It's a really hard question to answer where it's like, I really profoundly believe in this movie. with all of my, like I've devoted my life to this now, or at least I am going to until I see whether or not this can be a career for me or not. ah That's something I hadn't considered for the past decade, that this was even remotely possible. How that plays out, I really don't know. And that goes back to the question of distribution. don't, know, right now I'm entering it into festivals. The film's picture and sound locked. going to be completely finished by April 11th. It's just being color graded and sound mixed right now. um So yeah, I don't know. I'm trying festivals. I'm a little... um critical of. I think we made a really, really weird movie, but in a good way. And so I hope that festivals can see that and it could go. It can have somewhat of a traditional path, but I also will fight for it if it doesn't. And I'll try to do some sort of self-distribution and try to seek out venues like what. you went to yesterday, what Jake's doing in LA, these sort of micro cinemas, that could be the answer, I don't really know. Absolutely. like some kind of a theater tour, whether it's through micro cinemas, which are much more affordable, maybe even a couple big theaters here and there. We shall see. We shall see. But yeah, kind of the hundreds of beavers approach, which is always the go-to example these days. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, in all fairness, I think it has that appeal. think it's a movie and why I might be like, if it has an appeal. It's so topical, so topical. It's ridiculous. We felt that almost two years ago. This is before AI took off. it was very, we were, we were ahead of ourselves. And I, yeah, it's, it was like, I would describe it as like a little bit, as taking place a little bit in the future and at the present day at the same time, that was my original descriptor, but that no longer applies because it's now completely the present day. But I, to the hundreds of beaver's point is that, hundreds of, like those filmmakers fought for that movie because they knew it played well with crowds. I think the big break will play well with crowds. And so it's very important for me to find a way to get it. to like crack. And I can see like I remember when I watched hundreds of Beavers, I just watched it at home for the first time when I finally got to see it. And I was shocked how long it was like it's a pretty epically long. But if I think that would be one of the things like hundreds of Beavers in general, I'd be like, this is pretty charming. I can imagine a lot of people wanting to pick it up. But I guarantee you they would have been like, we are shaving 30 minutes off for sure. Like if they had gotten like normal distribution. And I'm sure they were like We worked way too hard on every minute of this goddamn visual. know, everything is such a visual and physical humor masterpiece on a shoestring budget. And I'm just sort of like, can see why they're like, we are not getting rid of 30 minutes of this, of our lives that, you know, we put so much effort into. once you get into the groove of the movie, even though it's long, you're like, You can't believe it's still going because every minute is packed with so much. It's kind of overwhelming, but it's all worth watching, you know? So yeah. And I don't know how you describe that type of film, but I also watched it by myself. Emmy live actions looney tunes is how you describe that kind of it is a pure. The quality of it playing well for crowds. It's not a movie I would want to watch again by myself, but I would absolutely love to watch it with a crowd. Maybe it's interesting. I would. Yeah, but I watched it by myself the first time. So I didn't have the crowd experience to them be like, but I'd miss that, which, course, you always do if you have that crowd experience. But it is it is I think it's a movie I can just marvel over every time I watch it in just the sheer ingenuity of every frame. uh have that collegial kind of shared experience quality. obviously, like, so I totally get what you're saying. It's fantastic on its own, but with the group, like, it just It does elevate it, no question. Which is a quality that's becoming more and more rare as streaming takes over. So I think that's part of Yeah. What works in its favor. The hope, the hope of something we can bring back at least a little bit. People are clamoring for it again, too, for that for that very reason, you know, people are looking for those experiences again. So, yeah. for less than $100, right? I mean, that's kind of the thing is like, we've been priced out of being able to partake of it very often. And as time goes on, the prices just keep rising. And of course, then they just keep uh premiumization. They premiumizing? Is that a It's not a word. It's word now. Premierizing, like, because like, now we're going to IMAX and 3D it and this and that. And the ticket price will just go up and up and up because fewer and fewer of you are coming. But as the prices keep going up and up, fewer and fewer continue to show up or we do it so much, much more infrequently that that's sort of the cycle we're stuck in right now, where you can only do it twice a year because it's so expensive. And yet it's that exact cost that makes us do it less and less and less, I think. And I would take it further to say like it's those types of films are spectacle films. The IMAX, VistaVision, hundreds of Beavers is not really a spectacle film. That's what I'm trying to get at. like there's something communal about it that isn't spectacle driven. ah And that I think is the future of uh whatever will be, whatever will be successful in a theatrical venue. Yeah. agree with you in general, though I would slightly add it is it is a spectacle in a way because it's such physical visual. But you're seeing it as like these are like a small handful of people that for very little resources manage to accomplish this. And the fact that it is as much pure spectacle as it is is kind of great. That's when you guys hear the honking bloody car. Bloody hell. We're doing this in the middle of the day in Los Angeles. You can. Son of a gun. Anyway. All right. So on that note, one last question for you, Avi, before we get started on our film of the day. What's your relationship with wine? Because that's the other half of this podcast. And we have had an ongoing conversation on Discord um where I've helped you to expand your palate a little bit with a certain deal. Like you kept asking questions and being like, yeah, be my personal sommelier and do this for me in Discord. And especially regarding like dessert wine, sweet wines, I got you to try a few that you never had before. But what got you into wine in the first place? Because you were already interested in it and pretty a little bit into it before I ever started talking to you. And how would you define your level of wine nerd? Yeah, well, first off, you probably have had the most like impact on my wine tasting. it's not that I'm like. Tell him that he will be insufferable behind the scenes for the next week. But yeah, I by no means am like, you know, I never would have considered myself a wine connoisseur. I've always had like a curious palate. So, you know, when when I get to try anything food, wine, something that like really challenges my palate, I get very excited. And so you definitely did that. But you'll see when I pick the bottle that I chose for the movie. I really started with wine in college. I wasn't I didn't really drink in high school. ah But there was I went to NYU and I was a third Avenue and 14th Street was the dorm. And there's a wine store. I think it's like Second Avenue and 11th. So it's like a few blocks and they didn't card. It was one of the few everyone in my new like who doesn't car. It was a very small wine store. So was like, that's where I started to experiment because like, you know, anything that was like under like 20 bucks. I was like starting to experiment with and I discovered a little bit through that basically just like guess and check. And then I had a friend, my friend Sava. uh He was an assistant wine maker at a winery in Hudson Valley. Yeah. And he's I would say is the one who like he's one of my best friends. like he really started introducing me to like Brunello and uh but leaner. Very nice. I know I'm gonna butcher the name, the Horex-toxali. Oh, yeah, I don't know how say it. I I can can picture I know what you're talking about. But yeah. uh Yeah, he would just recommend bottles to me. And that then I started, I started like, you know, getting into wine through him. And then the next person to give me wine advice was you. Yeah, I've helped him put together at least two cases from wine.com. Yes. And kind of piece them together with some some new things. He's like, I like A, B and C. What else should I try? And I'm like, well, let me let me roll up my sleeves. You've been spot on so far. still have not tried the, I have a few bottles that I ordered that I haven't tried yet. I haven't been drinking much lately, but the six. It makes one of us. I go through phases, but it's there waiting for me. I'm very excited to try the six pitanias because that five was like truly one of the most interesting tastes I've ever had, like ever in life. Well, on that note, speaking of Tokai Azu's six batonios, it's time for our wine trivia question of the week. And we're going to see if Avi can answer this. Dallas, you can feel free to help him if you like, because I did not reveal the answer to either of these two. So between the two of you, see if you can get this right. But one of the wines, obviously, me and Avi bonded over was I got him to try a luscious dessert wine, Tokai Azu. from Hungary, comes in both a five pitonios and a six pitonios. That's a level of sweetness in the wine. used to come in a three and four pitonios. Nowadays, under five, they just call it a late harvest and they change the rules of the Taki. So it's only five and six pitonios. And if you go below that, you're technically not a Natsu anymore. You're too. You're not sweet enough to be an issue at that point. But what what is the primary grape used to make to tie Azu? Is it a Taki? B, azu, C, saparavi, or D, ferment. That is once again for our listeners and for Avi in Dallas. A, tachy, B, azu, C, saparavi, and D, ferment. The supper obvious suspect. it has my name in it. It's not to cut. It's not to Chi. I don't think because that's the region. um For so it's a zoo or ferment. think. Furman I know is a type of wine. I believe. But I. um You want to help them drill down between uh Azu and ferment there Dallas? I'm gonna say your last statement, maybe backtrack from that a little. So Furman is the grave. It's, guess I'm gonna guess Furman. I don't know what Azu means, but I'm assuming it some kind of, It's Furman. they're going with D ferment and the answer is D ferment. You got it right. That is the name of the grape. Correct. And so ferment wine is just made with the ferment grape ah in in Hungary. And Takai is the place that the Azu is made in. Azu is the so it's called they're called Azu berries because Azu means dried. And so they're raisined grapes when you do an Azu. So it is the ferment and there are a couple other grapes that they use to make to Kai Azu But ferment is always number one There's the most ferment in there and there's a few other grapes in there harsh fellow harsh Levele is another one the second most used one. Sapporo is a red grape. That is a real Georgian. Yeah grape. Yes, Georgian red grape to make very bold red wine in Georgia. So we'll get you to try a soparev with your name in it one of these days. You'll have to find that. uh Right. And then the pitonios that you get, if you get five pitonios, that means a pitonios is like a bucket. every but it's how many it's how many buckets of azu berries you add to the wine of the dried versions, because that's what makes it sweet. And then you have a base wine that is completely dry of ferment. And then how many petonios of the dried azu berries are you adding to make it sweeter and sweeter and sweeter? And so six petonios is six petonios of those motherfuckers. Five is only five and so on and so forth. So good job. You got it right. Ferment for the Takai Azu. Congrats to Avi guys. will probably feature at some point to the end of this season. We're probably going to compile all of our trivia questions and do a master quiz. I'm just saying that. It'll probably be a lot of work. But, know, Avi's answer will definitely feature in that. All right now, Avi, on to business here. Please tell our listeners what movie you've chosen to talk about today. And most importantly, why? chose, I have to remember the subtitle, extreme, it's Listers, an extreme glimpse into birdwatching. Yes. A glimpse into extreme birdwatching. And I chose it because I think it's one of the, I think it's a movie that filmmakers, especially those in like the non-D ecosystem should be talking about more. I heard about it maybe six months ago and I heard about it for multiple people, none of them whom had any involvement in film were filmmakers or anything like that. And then eventually I did start seeing it some talk of it in the film community, but I'm sort of still astounded that this is pretty much like the most non-D film I can think of that I've seen in the last couple of years. And it's predominantly been championed by non-filmmakers. And I don't know what that means. uh To me that... It means it's on YouTube. That's what it means. Yes. Yeah. I think that's a problem. I tried to, you know, I want to champion this film because I think film, if the film, the Nandi film community really wants, you know, to take off, they need to be championing films that film fans like, not just filmmakers. Yes. And that are trying new forms of distribution that are uncommon for a True Blue feature film. Yes. Yes. And it's a film that appeals to like, I can't tell you like the variety of people I've heard about it from. Just friends who have no interest, like, hey, have you seen this doc? It's just, such a, it's had such a wide appeal. ah And it's a missed opportunity in my opinion. I think filmmakers should be championing it more. The film community. Maybe they've caught up now, but six months ago they were not. I don't think they've caught up entirely. um So one of the things that kind of blew my mind when preparing for this podcast is, know, we are you on letterboxed, Avi? You're not OK. You should be. It's helpful again, reaching those those film film fans, not just filmmakers. Right. um Yes. And one of the things so listeners is not on letterboxed at all. And you can't get it on Letterboxd. I tried. um know how the way you get something listed on Letterboxd is there's another database, the movie database, so TMDB, not IMDB. TMDB, Right. And anyone can make an account, and you list a movie, but they uh have rules for what you can list, and they go through review, and they will reject what you try to post there if there's a reason to. And their rule right now, which doesn't I do not think makes a ton of sense. You can kind of see why because they don't do TV. Right. So they're like they don't want music videos. They don't want miniseries or TV shows listed because it is just for movies. Letterboxd is purely for future films. Right. And they don't want content videos like content creators doing videos. So once upon a time, you can understand why these rules made sense. But then with the listeners, I've already appealed that and people have already, I had to look up Reddit threads because I tried to list it on and it was rejected, like soundly. They're like, no, this breaks our guidelines for posting anything. I'm like, and then I read their guidelines and they're like nothing from like content creators on YouTube do not count. And I was like, right, but this is a actual documentary that these guys aren't content creators. They have posted nothing else on YouTube, right? It's like they have not. They've done a trailer. They've done a teaser and they've done this feature film. And that is it. You're right. There's nothing else that these guys have posted. That's wild. Like I forgot the name of the documentary, but there was a documentary about the war in Ukraine that was really straight to YouTube. almost certainly can guarantee that would be a letterbox. I don't, maybe not, it probably will not be if that, if it's exclusively on YouTube. Maybe I played festivals first, but the thing that I did write back to them and I was like, guys, this is why it doesn't make sense. If someone self distributed it on Amazon Prime, it would count. Yeah. That's wild. So it's only because they're only on YouTube and they're not anywhere else that they will not count it for that reason. So Avi, quick question for you. Do you want to start a petition to see if we can get this motherfucker listed on the letterbox? Let's do heard it here first, we're starting today. 100%. But also it points to like, this is probably why I'm not on Letterboxd is uh I know it's I know it's the the app to go to for like discovery. And in letterbox defense, the users really want this to be listed there, like pun intended. Like they are, they are absolutely like, I found out through another letterbox person who posted somewhere and he's like, this is why listers will never be posted here and it's a problem. And they're not happy about it. So the users want it. It's just the, again, the gatekeepers as there always are some. And they're always very slow to change. Yeah. So here's my question. What does, similar to what's happened with uh Substack and now that there's Filmstack, uh what does the non-D alternative to Letterboxd look like? Where these films that are sort of outside the realm kind of could exist because, know, Letterboxd isn't hosting them. Well, I'm going to push back on that even thought. don't think there should be an alternative to letterbox. And I think letterbox should simply be if you are a feature film, you are feature film length. You have been made as a feature film. Like that is something I just think their rules need to catch up with the modern moment. of rules change when there's competition. That's my, that's my angle so, but I get what you say. I have to go. starting from scratch. mean, this is a bit of the problem with, I don't want to get too deep into the weeds on this, but even when we talk about distribution, one of the biggest problems is they're like, someone create a platform. And it's like, okay, but then no one's using the fucking platform because it's a new platform. what does that really do? And people are looking for that solution, but I feel like starting from scratch, we really have to ask ourselves how, like, Even if someone creates that platform, what is that path forward and how do we do it? But go ahead, Davi, you were about to I was going to just simply say that I think discovery is when we were talking about distribution earlier as being like the sort of quintessential issue for non-D films, discovery might be the, you know, the right behind it. And in all fairness, I don't have a letterbox account. I've I've gone on it and I can say as like a non user, it's just the same 10 movies that are in the theaters and it's it's review after review. It's like 20 reviews about black phone to like that was the last time I looked at it. It was like, you know, I don't need to I don't care about this movie. So that's as as as like a guess. But then there's like, do I have to sign in again? There's the long form writing barrier. I know you don't have to leave like long reviews. You follow the The the the current thing, like the younger generations, the millennials and the Gen the Gen Zers are like one line reviews is the thing to do something pithy, you know, snarky. Sometimes even they love it. They'll give it four and a half stars out of five, but then still leave something pithy and snarky. And the Gen Xers hate it. They're like, my God. They're like, write a real review. So there's a bit of a war going on. do things. But then I will also say that I use letterbox like, yes, just like on Substack, when f1 comes out, everyone writes a fucking f1 review. And you're like, guys, what are we doing here? Why? Because everyone wants to be a part of the cultural conversation and so on and so forth. And I have had conversations with users on letterbox where they're like, I'm like, if you don't want especially if it's like a Netflix original, I'm like, viewing it. is your vote for more of it. it like that's it. It's done. Netflix doesn't give a shit if you liked it or not. Like at all. They're like, yeah, but you watched it. And if we make the sequel, ah you're going to watch that too. Aren't you? And you know what? The answer is yes. And I've tried to explain to people that your eyeball, especially if it's stream a free stream or like a subscription streaming platform, your view is the vote that you're like, they're going to make another one. And they're like, they don't buy it as an argument. And I'm like, guys, you're killing me. That's kind of my issue is like I go on to be or I go on Amazon Prime and I see a hundred movies I have never heard of and they all came out last year and I just like I want somebody to like help me navigate that. for you. I will say that is good at that. And I know you're only looking at it from the out, like because you're not a user. When you become a user, the thing is you start following people and letterbox starts feeding you what they're actually reviewing. And you wind up following the kinds of people that you want to follow that are going to watch. They they might they're going to throw in some mainstream. I mean, everyone should be keep some degree of mainstream fair in there and be aware of what's going on in the mainstream. But letterbox has. The crazy part about Lister's not being listed there is everything is on letter. The dirt, cheapiest, unknown Filipina movie from the 60s and the 70s is on there. Every softcore porn movie that you have never heard of is fucking on there. Everything is the indiest thing that you're like, it might have no reviews, but it's on there. And like someone bothered to list it. And the best part is it's also. very democratic in terms of like, can go and list. There have been a few films, independent films that I wanted to do a like mini collabs with and like me and two other users are gonna watch it the same week and all post reviews. And it didn't exist on Letterboxd. And I've gone to list it and within 48 hours it is listed on Letterboxd and it's there to stay. And then we write the first reviews and away we go. And it's a wonderful platform in that regard. Listers is the first time I've ever run a foul. of them being like, this cannot be listed here. And it kind of blew my mind. But then I realized I've almost never come across anything that was only listed on YouTube. But that is a bit of a problem in terms of like the moment that we're in. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know we're about to put the big break on letterbox, so I will have to join in. So I'm going to I'm going to give it a chance. Yes. Yes. And you're probably right. It's probably a lot better than. But, know, I've pointed this out many times before, but like I'm not a huge gamer, but uh having worked in tech, I've just become very familiar with steam. And, know, I every once in while I go in there and just like look at like what's new and trending. so, you know, there's Every week there's like five games by like single developers or super tiny studios and they're right on the front page. And I just I don't maybe letterbox has that but I you know there with the amount of films that are coming out there really should be a better way to navigate. There should be. There should be something that's more like, because right now Letterboxd is like, what's trending is always going to be on the front page. And what's trending will always be something big, because it's the only thing that gets enough, like that many eyeballs in sheer numbers and sheer quantity. But then you have like, well, what are the people you following most interested in this week? And that winds up being a much different story than just the main, trending thing. um So a lot of it gets personalized for you in that regard. um But then the main trending things are, unless something has to be exploding in the culture in some way, or form for Letterboxd to put it up there and have it not be personalized for you. Yeah, that's like, I don't know how far how tangential this is, but like there's a huge backlash right now to Spotify for music discovery. Some of the really cool things coming out of it is uh there's now an app where you can like tune into like any radio station anywhere in the world. uh There are a couple by the way, I have a few recommendations. There's this great one, which is this interactive overlay with the satellites and you can just pop it. fantastic. Fantastic. It almost feels like an analog experience in the early days of streaming music, but sorry, go ahead. for now. That's exactly I think we're talking about the same thing. But there's another one that's like you can listen to whatever a stranger is listening to. Like I think it's actually not the people. My friends tell me what to watch. I want to hear from some stranger. I want to something totally new. Right, right. Yeah, something that wasn't on your radar at all until it was like pure happenstance, pure randomness. Yes. Or it's funny because this is something, this is my own pet peeve with people, when it comes to algorithms, right, the algorithm is you. I mean, ultimately at the end of the day. And I've been using Spotify to my advantage in terms of discovering new music that I would never hear of. But that means you have to go out of your way. Because once you start going out of your way to listen to something, like, I don't know the fuck this is. But you know what? Especially once I see that like the band has 12K followers, right? Something small for Spotify. I'm like, I don't know. I mean, maybe I don't like it, but I'm gonna play it. And Spotify has been like, you like indie shit. Great. Here's a whole bunch more. And I'm like, yay. This is exactly what I wanted. see, I do slightly the opposite. Whenever there's a Spotify recommendation, I immediately reject it. So that it continues to just populate and try and you know, guess and do extremes. And that's, that's an interesting sort of search habit for me. Well, I think you have to do both, right? Because you have to because you also even the indie like it's going to be a specific slice of indie. And if you stop there, it's going to funnel that uh exhaustively at you and nothing else. And so algorithms suck because once they think they've got you there, they don't change. You. Right. Right. You've got to go out of your way to constantly be poking at things. And then the algorithm just keep just keeps jumping around with you. But. That's the point. The algorithm is you. And if you are passive, the algorithm is passive. it does no work for you. And if you're doing a little bit of work, the algorithm uh accentuates it. What's the word I'm looking for? It powers that work that you're doing. um I think I'm somewhere in the middle. When Spotify started like Discover Weekly, was like, oh, yeah, great. I'm discovering so much. Yeah. The first few years was fantastic. And now I don't even bother to look at it. But I've discovered new ways of finding music. I would actually say Substack has been one of the best platforms for that. I see people's top, you people who love music the way I love film are posting their favorite albums of the year. And that's become, you know, a something I wouldn't have had access to, which is just people who love this medium telling me what their favorite things are. Maybe arguably Letterbox has that. just just think there are there are too many films that are good that are not being talked about. And this is really, really like listeners is just the prime example. It's the press. Yeah, I agree. All right. And so on that note, we're going to start a petition, guys, by the time this show goes live, you will have a link down below. You can sign that petition, say get listeners on Letterboxd. That's going to be petitioned for the movie database to change their rules, bend their rules, like bring it up to date for the modern world. Us and Navi, we are going to put that together. And by the time this goes live, you will have that in the description of this episode down below. Please click that and help. Lister's out. Let's get it listed on Letterboxd. Let's show that we could do it now. Normally, let's start talking about the movie proper. Now, normally we would break a film down into three acts and discuss each act separately. But I got to tell you, Lister's as documentary and a mostly non narrative doc at that um it follows them for a year. But I tried. I really tried to break this down into acts. And I was like, you know, this does not quite lend itself to that structure without just. putting like literally just walking you through every single scene and every single like person that they interview and whatnot. So instead, let's have a more open, slightly just slightly guided conversation, but open about listeners, you know, it's about these two brothers doing their first big year, trying to get as many birds as they can trying to beat the 751 record. So, Avi, what are our initial thoughts? Well, watching the stock, that's where we always start. You brought this to us. When you watch this doc, yes, you thought it was important for what it was and you were weirded out that film people were not talking about it. But when you watch the doc, what was, how did it hit you? What was your, what were your initial thoughts on Lister's as a documentary? I'll use a descriptor that I think isn't, uh, isn't used enough or isn't used properly. and, that's that the movie was fun. And this also taps into hundreds of beavers a little bit. I think people really need to, to differentiate fun and funny. And yes, something can be, the movie's both fun and funny, but fun is a, is a different type of experience. Um, and a lot of my favorite films going back to the French new wave, These are are movies that are fun, uh playful. And I hadn't seen a movie like that. I think we've been slowly drifting away from movies that are fun. And this movie just it's just I can't think of a better descriptor. It's just fun. The whole movie is just so much fun. uh So, yeah, that's that's what I walked away. And, uh you know, again, with like the sort of all of the filmmakers that we know for the most part are the same filmmakers. I don't know. I'm about to be 40. So for me, it was like it's the same filmmakers 20 years ago. You know, Tarantino, Nolan, Kevin Smith, like it's all the same filmmakers. Where are the new emerging? And then you look at like Sean Baker, he's like in his 50s, like where are the 20 year old filmmakers that there used to be? And so that that was another thing. It's just like nice to hear and see a younger voice emerging. I miss that. I miss that. Just kind of jumping into the pool and throwing throwing the gauntlet down on that. Yeah. Yeah. And I will say I agree with the fun versus funny thing. Like there are funny moments, but yeah, these two guys, they don't take it too seriously. I mean, that's the thing. Like bird watching was not a passion before they started this. They just got the idea. They're like, what would it be like if we just tried this, if we just jumped in and did it? And then they went into this world that takes itself, you know, I come from the wine world, so I recognize this instantly, like a world that is like so deeply obsessed. they even recognize how deeply obsessed they are. Like there's kind of that interesting dichotomy where the world is like, we're silly how obsessed we are, but we're also totally fucking serious. We can see how silly it is. Well, nevertheless, that does not decrease the seriousness of how we feel about our bird watching. and watching the two brothers ever so slightly, like they never slide completely into seriousness, but even in their own words, they're like, we got into it. Like we were taking it more and more serious as we went. Yeah, Dallas. think uh I think there is they sort of touch on a bit of the obsessive madness that surprised even then. That was what's most fun and endearing about this sort of pairing is they were totally shocked and surprised at how easily they sort of fell into this sort of, you know, micro obsession, right. And that was very interesting. And even sort of reminded me of you spoke of the fun of this film, Avi reminded me of the film sideways. In a weird way, the non scripted sort of that, you know, that duo who sort of, you know, ends up bumbling into sort of some sort of madness with this sort of obsession in this goal. And uh it's kind of fascinating to see these two uh just roll into this micro obsession. It was you're right. It was a fun film. It was a buddy comedy. It was a in its own little way, you know, because seeing these guys sort of build rafts on the in a marsh and it just narrated and just it was just so I wanted to be there with them. And that is so rare for a documentary for someone like me because I'm really jaded about everything. But I really wanted to just be like the third guy sort of like, this is hilarious. You know, anyway. In our recent double coverage of Alabama Solution and Perfect Neighbor documentaries for the Oscars week, he was very cynical about the fact that he's like, they make these and we just forget about them. And I'm like, whoa, whoa. I had so much more optimism of how important the stories were and blah, blah, say they aren't important. It's just our collective sort of memory to digest and just sit with. shrug. Yeah. I need to listen to that episode, but The Perfect Neighbor might actually have my favorite film of last year alone. nice. It was very well done. Very well done. ah I have not. Okay, HBO Max is where you got it. I watched it tonight. Beautiful. But you tapped into it. All right. So I've talked to a lot of people who walk away from this movie. They're like, oh, I got into bird watching. I didn't have that experience at all. I mean, I pay a little bit more attention, but that was not my experience. My experience actually is very I don't know if this is kind of what you were touching on. Both you guys. It's it's such an amazing study of any hobby from like somebody entering it. Yes. Like Yep. go through the like, oh you know, like this is let's just see how like do this for the fun of it. Then they actually. But this is kind of dumb, right? it's kind of so look at these obsessives. cynical, cynical. Yeah. Yeah. I'm young, stone, stupid, like, I'm just gonna like do this for the hell of it. And then they actually start falling in love with it. And that's beautiful. And then they're like, wait, wait, wait, I can recognize these three different bird calls. I know what I'm hearing. And they're they're almost like as they master. my nieces are now learning Spanish, they've got this sort of Spanish immersion sort of class. And it literally is, they just drop them into six hours a day of Spanish. And they hate it on one end, but at the end of the day, they're walking out of it understood so much more than everyone else. Well, and when you do it from an older age, I think it takes you by surprise that you that you learn it right where you start to be like, oh, wait, we have this mastery we weren't necessarily trying for. weren't taking it that seriously. And then but once you realize you can start to recognize bird calls, you're like, oh, I like to superpower here. And now you start to slide into because now a little bit of your ego is involved. Now a little bit of your self-worth is involved. You want to show Absolutely. Right. And then you start to immerse yourself in the hobby, which is what they do. And there's a point where they get upset that they find themselves getting upset at the fact that they can't find a bird. And that's when it really starts to show the toxicity of culture. oh the obsessiveness and that's not actually a good thing really deep down, right? Yeah. it's like that listeners is the perfect title because it's like that's what that that's the bad side of this hobby. And that's why I mentioned that sort of descent into sort of, you know, micro madness, because, you know, they do realize in, you know, this sort of in the middle of this hobby that they really are upset that they're upset and that realization in real time is just fantastic to watch. Right. And how serious they're taking everything when that was that both was and that was the point. They're like, let's do this for real. But there's a part of you that's like, there's no way, you know, we're just we're not going to really fall. But that's the whole going down, like whether it's again, bird watching or wine. I love that we're we're going to do a line pairing with this because one the wine world is so similar. It's ridiculous. It's the rabbit hole. Yeah. The film world, too. Right. You go so far down. But, know, one of the things obvious. And here's the fun. Right. When do you lose the fun? And then also, when do you become a little too one note in yourself as a person because you're obsessed about one thing only? And one of the things that I've always appreciated, you mentioned about me in your recent like all the people I have found on Substack that like I appreciate. And you said, Dave Baxter, you're like this entertainment thing reminded you to have more than one passion. Yes. That it's OK. to have more than one passion. And I was like, yes, because whether it's filmmaking or whether it's the wine world, I'm like, guys, more than one like sometimes also talk about something else and care about something else. And your life and your purpose doesn't have to be defined by this. And your online presence, right? Shouldn't also your online presence shouldn't just be we're so into this branding element of online personality culture, where it's like you have to be the thing. And that's who you are online. the expert. And that's what makes us less than a real full human being is we just become the thing that can be taken apart, that can be attacked, that can be laughed at, that can be agreed with, that can be supported. Whatever it is, it's just the one thing rather than being a full fleshed human. And you watch, you know, I was actually kind of happy when the older couple that held the record. of the 751 birds at the beginning of the documentary. And then we find out he also got into laser light show. By the way, the husband is definitely the villain in for that arc. He is He had to take down everyone. He came across is fantastic but it was great because he would go down every competitive rabbit hole. He was sort of like, didn't. And in fact, the only reason he had to not do everyone is because you could tell the wife was like, no, no, no, no, no, two. You get to, you know, and then it's like our life has to be calmer after after your two obsessions. But he was willing to take on as many as he could. That's its own kind of beast. But I was like, oh, good. Someone who's more than just a birder. He's like, oh, no, I do this with lots of things. again, that's what you're talking about, Avi. Clearly, this guy just has a competitive spirit and every hobby he touches, he has to excel at to the detriment of, it sounds like many of his relationships, except the wife. And he I mean, obsessiveness in and of itself is not a bad thing. It's a wonderful thing to fall in love with something. And it's I think he even says it like it's the competitive part. That's that's the part that like really sort of darkens the whole like that that beauty that beauty. ah green-eyed monster when it comes in the jealousy where it's like you've got to like but other people can't be better than you or do it better or do it more and that's where it's like okay become obsessed but you know just do it for the fun of it do it for the love of the thing not the accomplishment above what other people are accomplishing per se yeah Yeah, there's so many characters that the film just like like shows that aspect so well. It's like they just flat out ask one of the one of the guys like, would you be doing this if the app didn't exist? Right. could. Yeah, it's like, OK, so. Right. I mean, he was aware, at least he was self aware enough that, I mean, he didn't hesitate. They were like, would you do it if you couldn't do this as a competition? mean, instantly he was like, no. He's like, this is so much work. This is so much effort. Why the fuck would I do it if I couldn't win? that raises another point of the old world, old way of doing thing versus the new way of doing things, which Dave and I talk about pretty often in terms of wine. And also we're now talking about with a non-demo movement and distribution of old cinema. ah But because there's that character who used to hold the record, the two. two guys and the young kid was now sort of encroaching on their record. And the caveat was that, well, it's a new game, because every year they just keep adding new potential birds to the list. And the technology exactly, exactly. And uh so that was definitely a turning point, an interesting character sort of relationship between that sort of new world and old world birding, because my uncle's very, very deep into the Boy Scout. world. And as a child, we often did, you know, the sort of excursions and whatnot. And you had your little birding book and you know, you learn to recognize the patterns and all that. And now as a kid, if I have an app to go out and just, you know, detect the bird calls, you know, I'm one I'm not remembering any of the bird calls, I'm not committing anything to memory. And two, it's just a hell of a lot easier. So, you know, back to our conversation about tech lowering, lowering the bar with film. Yeah, kind of does with this too. But in terms of the documentary, fantastic note. Love this. I love this movie. Like really love this movie. I mean, everyone who watches it does. They're a winsome duo, our lead guys. And then everyone we meet is a character by nature, by dint of being an extreme birdwatcher. Who the fuck isn't going to be a character that does extreme birdwatching? Although maybe they edited out some people they talked to who were boring. Who knows? It is a documentary. They probably tried to keep it kind of entertaining. Now, the doc does often raise the question, speaking of obsessiveness and whatnot, though it does raise the question of our fascination with nature and or our obsession with anything and how that leads to behavior that threatens the very thing we love, right? So we're spending massive amounts of money, burning crazy amounts of gasoline, driving around and traveling through these venues, being present in numbers in places where we're not necessarily meant to be, where nature is a bit more preserved, but we're just stomping through trying to. take a fucking picture of as many birds as we can. So what are our thoughts on obsession is good, but where is that line where it tips into like you're harming the very thing you care about because it's all about you doing it. There's the girl who constantly mentions that she's like, she questions it. She's very interestingly, she's like, I can't stop but I do wonder how bad this is. You know, and it's funny, she's self-reflective enough to notice that she can't quite bring herself to not do it, but at the same time, she's already having that crisis of, am I part of the problem? With, you know, has this become a problem? Avi, you wanna kick us just going say she has one of the best lines where it's like, none of this is actually helping the birds. Right. Right. This is just about and even though she's like, well, if you do this, you make it about you, not the bird. But then like as the doc goes on, yeah, near the end, she starts to be like, maybe all of this has nothing to do with the birds. Right. It's like we only know to go see these birds because we've already cataloged them. We already know they exist. We're not doing science here. You know, we're not we're not putting it down in the journal for the first time. We're just coming in the wake of scientists and, know, dragging on their coattails and trying to take our own bloody pictures and sightings of these birds. And is that helping anything? are we, how much are we, are we part of the problem there and whatnot? I think they do a great job of mentioning it. I think it was in Act one, the two older gentlemen who were speaking discussed purchasing, I'm going to get the number wrong, either 2500 or 25,000 acres and turning it into a preserve. Right. And you know, there's that sort of conservationist sort of core or baseline, which I think this dock is sort of built upon. We don't necessarily touch a whole lot on it, but I do think at the core of this, I'm not sure if the filmmakers are really interested in the conservationist uh sort of perspective, but it's clearly in the minds of people who are in this film and birders and bird watchers. But then what ends up happening, it seems, is that competitive thing just takes over and begins to run. the show. And I wonder if that then becomes secondary to, you know, to uh the conservationist aspect becomes secondary to just the competitive uh aspect of this, which it seems it does. Yeah, I don't know. I think they did a good job at touching on conservationism. There's the part you talk about. They also talk about how some birds are just harder to find because of developing uh neighborhoods and just industrialization. We wouldn't be talking about this if this was a documentary about bird conservationism. It just wouldn't be entertaining. They did it the right amount, I personally think. And I feel like that um the intention there comes through. I agree. Even as a documentary, as something you would want to watch, it's the gamification of birdwatching that makes you start to watch it in the first. They're like, we're going to try and do a big year and the number to beat is blank. That's how it starts. Yeah. Right. It's like they know what the hook is, even for the us, the viewer of the documentary. And from there, they can explore what they want to. But it's like they had to rope us in with that initial gamification, that competition. Agreed. Yeah, there's a moment where, as someone who just made a uh film about phone addiction or technology addiction, I think a lot of... This is where I start to get empathetic for these characters, which I think is really amazing that you can empathize with the villainous characters. There's a moment where uh he shows a redacted email or the filmmaker shows a redacted email. Um, from somebody who says they like got, they were suicidal and like this whole birdwatcher thing was like, and then, and then it immediately cuts to the guy who has like a tattoo and he's like, like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. Uh, like it's changed my life. And so you just get the two sides. Yeah. And then, yeah, and they, cut together very well and it's, it's done like very poignantly. Um, but yes, I don't. Where does it go south? Clearly this is for some people, this hobby that is like truly giving them joy in life. And then for other people, they go down this path that's like just a path of depression. And like, where does that start? I imagine technology plays some role here. Yeah. And are we talking about bird watching? Are we talking about wine or are we talking about filmmaking? Right. Yes, exactly. That's what makes the movie so good. It is. And perfect for this podcast. did this convince any of us to take up birdwatching? Well, funnily enough, uh this weekend I was in on the Channel Islands and the Channel Islands is its own little sort of micro ecosystem in that it has a species of fox which only exists on the island and it's a diminutive fox and it only gets about the size of a house cat. They have no fear of humans so they will walk up to you, uh crawl up your leg to grab something out of your hand. And it also has a very specific uh species of scrub jay, which is about, I think, 30 % larger than it is found anywhere else. um And the entire Channel Islands, if you guys are not familiar, are off the coast of Santa Barbara and uh Ventura. And it's now a national park. m And it is a place where conservationists, birders, bird watchers come. And it's sort of Nirvana for many of them because it's a place where these sort of species can only be found. It is extra extraordinarily remote, even though it's only, you know, an hour and a half off the coast of L.A. or California. And yeah, so I spent a lot of time with my cameras out on the birds. And they are also very aggressive towards humans. They will attack you. OK, they also have a species of raven. which they behave in pairs. One will, when you leave your bag, it will unzip your bag and a second will fly into your bag and steal your keys. uh Really interested in. So there's so many cars that have been left on the coast of Ventura at the dock because the keys were stolen by ravens on the island. So yeah, I am not necessarily. murder at heart, but I get it. I totally 100. I also understand that competitive thing because I can see that being engaged in myself like, yeah, that would be a problem. So I get it. Yeah. All right. So favorite human in the documentary, which character? Oh, God. For me, it's going to it's going to be the girl. I liked her the best because she just questioned. She kept questioning everything while still being completely committed. And I loved I thought that she was the most balanced and healthy minded. She was of reason. She was the voice of reason. Yeah. While still being obsessed, while still being properly obsessed. So I was like, OK, she was questioning. me hope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How about you? light likable. Yeah. Any different takes? Favorite human. I can get what I think is the most interesting character. OK, maybe not as likable, but I think there are the most fascinated by it was uh the the guy who was obsessed with like. Like putting everything in the app, uh I don't remember his name, but he went to like the one. did pigeons and whatnot. Yes. And also did the sub regions like he was like, but I haven't seen that bird here. And there's a, they go to a cemetery and he's like, I haven't found a bird, this bird in this county. He'd already seen the bird hundreds of times, but he had to log it in that county and apparently he was at that cemetery. That was fascinating to me. I'd say my My two finishers for a favorite human are, and they only appeared very briefly, one was the guy in the wheelchair who was like, please help me and get me out of the mud, but also don't tell my wife. That was fascinating. That was fantastic. And there was a point when our two leads were using the app to play the call of one of the birds. And it ended up calling another birder who they had not seen. Because and and they were wondering like I wonder if this guy is going to make a note in his app of this notebook of Seen are heard only because that's a that's a designation you I heard the call of a bird I did not put eyes on it right and that made me think how many times people have been in the wild in the last ten years and have heard the call of these just It's just the app That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, those are my yeah What other character more likeable than the one I said was that the other like homeless guy that they run in. Australian guy. Yeah. Yeah. on the bike, right? And then they brought him in to have dinner at a diner and whatnot, because he was like, he was like, haven't eaten. He's like, I'm sleeping on the street. I haven't eaten. He's like, I'm literally doing this with no money. They were doing it for 16,000, which they thought was cheap. And this guy was like, I'm literally doing this penny list. was living that life without the film behind it. was just fascinating. He was. I agree. All right. Favorite bird in the film. Does anyone remember their favorite bird? actually mine is I don't remember the name of them. I don't remember the name of the moment. But it's the one that the guy in the wheelchair showed them with the red copper breast. um I don't remember. Yeah, that was beautiful. Okay. uh Mine was the scissor tail. I believe it was the scissor tail swallow. I could be wrong, but when that tail came out and they're like, and it's a, it's a proper pair of scissors. And I was like, yeah, that thing's awesome. Um, and yeah, you saw them for, I mean, you see the, is a true blue nature documentary to guys. Like the bird photography is amazing. Yeah. Um, and they name every bird and they show it to you. you know, clear, in as much clarity as they, some birds are like literally very hidden and they're like, well, we kind of caught it on camera, but most of them you see clear as a bell in slow-mo photography and it's gorgeous to behold, yeah. Avi, you might not have prepared for this question, but can you think of any favorite birds? My the sun's like hitting me so I apologize. I don't remember the names very well. There was the one that like they were looking for that randomly showed up. Oh, the more. the three three three toes. Toed wood. that narrative arc at least I loved. And I'll go like kind of maybe it's boring, but um the to sort of uh emphasize the beautiful photography are just the flamingos. It was at the very end, there's like a scene where they just they give up on their like competitive nature of the whole experience and they just go on a boat and just go look at flamingos. And it's very rewarding and they just have these beautiful shots of like flamingos. And I feel like at that point you kind of like. Right. Even they say at one point, the photos they're getting, the video they're getting, they're like, Yer, are you kidding me? Because it's just so good. But they're just talking about how beautiful it is and what they're getting. Yeah. All right. Now, let's wrap this up. We got to reveal what we paired with Lister's. Now, did all the birds influence what we decided to pair with it or not? It definitely did for me. But you know what? Avi. Kick us off here. What did you decide to pair with Listers and why? You're our special guest, so you get to go first. So I went with something that was personal to me. So I was telling you, like, how I discovered wine when I was like 18 as a freshman in college. And there was a bottle that I discovered I loved that I just kept going back to. And it became like the bottle that I drank. for me, this is just like college. And it represents the mentality of this movie so much. I will say, though, I asked my friend Sava to uh give recommendations. He was like, choose. an orange wine with a twist off cap. I was like, that's cool. But this was my choice. Alright! it. Go through. Yeah. And this bottle, like, you know, it must have been like 2005. That was the first bottle of wine that I had that I was like, I love this. And it was like 15 bucks. I was like, yeah. All right. So the way you're the way to find yourself into an obsession, the way to fall in love with something. And you're like, I love this. I didn't expect to. But I do. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. All right. I it. I like it. And can you just list just so because this is an auditory podcast. Name the bottle in full. It's it's a Cote de Rhone. ah It's E. E. Gagal G. U. I. G. A. L. We go. Yeah. It's pretty recognizable. Like you can find it pretty much like. This bottle I literally just picked this up like right before because I got I should check it's twenty twenty two. 2022. All right, beautiful. And it's still like under 20 bucks. All right. Yeah. Awesome. And it holds up. And a whole nice... That is what matters. Alright D, follow that up. my route into pairing for this, I actually just went with uh the history of birding and bird watching. And there's a specific region in France, which has a very long history of bird watching. are known for their storks, but they also have one of the oldest preserves uh in uh in the region. uh And speaking of this region, it is Alsace. uh and I prefer. I know I know I've been saying it since no one who lives there is gonna agree with you we can argue, I don't care. ah But it's as I said, they're very, they're very much known for their storks. And I think there was one image of a stork in this film. And it was like an act to at some point. But I went with this pinot noir. It is uh Dave, I, I want to say this is one you and I've had again, because we've had a lot of white together, dear God, dear, probably God. uh But I went with the I went with 2017. FH Rimbach gets a pinot noir reserve. It is again, Alsatian or Alsatian depends on how annoying you are. ah It is uh lovely. exactly exactly exactly but I'm sure there's just just Grammatically always work it into Alsatian We get so much more engagement when we pronounce things incorrectly. Lots of cherry, lots of cranberry, lots of spice. There's some subtle like smoke. It is uh fairly smooth to me, uh velvety, I guess. And this film is just so smooth. It's just so expertly executed. I don't know if it was just accidental. It just lends itself to just a natural kind of arc. Every character in the film even has its own sort of natural arc. uh mean, this is a movie that was made in post. Yeah. I mean, more than like they really went through. They had a year's worth of footage and they had a lot to choose from. job of, you know, making it velvety smooth much like this. He trimmed up piano or Trimbok, Alsatian, Pinot Noir. What year is that? 2017. All right. Get a little age on it. Yeah, 90 years. All right, Dave, bring us home. All right. All right. I will take us home. So for me, I would really wanted you know, this, this movie is all about chronicling as much as humanly possible taking it all in all the birds, right? As many birds as you can possibly get into one single year. So I was like, All right, I got to find a wine that is as many things as humanly possible in one single wine. No, um it is. So there's such thing in the wine world called the field blend. Yeah. And Not just a field blend, but there's also a very traditional style of field blend in Portuguese wine called the palhete. that is a P-A-L-H-E-T-E. So um pal and then an H in Portuguese is always a Y sound. So and then it's not a palhete. It's just you just pronounce it palhete. And that means red grapes and white grapes. You pick an entire vineyard. Everything. You pick the whole thing. You don't care what they are. You don't care how much of anything there is. You take it all. You crush it all together. You co-ferment it all together. And you make one wine. And it's usually 20 or more kinds of grapes. um I have two palettes here that I represent here in Los Angeles. This kiddie wine, the Nina, is 50 % red, 50 % white grapes, all crushed together and made into one single palette field blend. I also have their goat wine, the Chibu, which is 80 % red, 20 % white. So you can get a little bit more red, a little bit more tan, and a little bit more body and whatnot. And then this little Nina Kitty one, if you want it little more chillable, a little more like crushable and chuggable and just light and bodied. these guys are, this is the kind of wine, these guys are on the West Coast, the Nina and the Chibu Planet Mirage. ah M-O-U-R-A-Z. These guys are also low sulfite natural wines, the Portuguese have discovered a new way to preserve wine without sulfites, which is using the chestnut flower tannin. The tannins of the flower of the chestnut tree. And you can use that to preserve wine instead of using sulfites. So it doesn't taste funky like a natural wine. actually... does preserve but you use something instead of sulfite. So if you're sensitive to sulfites or think you are, you can do these Planet Mirage wines and they are amazing. So a Paliette wine, it's just gonna be everything in the kitchen sink in one single wine. uh That word P-A-L-H-E-T-E, just Google that. See if you can find some near you. See if you can find some on WineSearcher or Wine.com or any, I'll have some links down below. You can do a Google search that will do location based. So wherever you are located, see if you can find some. If you can't find a pile yet, just do a field blend of some kind, which will still be, a field blend will be all red or all white, but it will still be. a mix, a mixed match and mosh of all these different grapes from one single vineyard that they're all gonna put together and do a single wine. It's usually on the concept of what grows together goes together. And just the fact that it's all in the same area, it's like, this is all gonna work. And the Portuguese have been making wine like this for thousands of years. They've been growing all the grapes together until recent history. They did not even know what they were growing. They never bothered to find out. They, because this is how they made wine. So they only DNA tested in very recent history and finally figured out what the hell all these grapes were. So that is what I think goes with Lister's as you're going through all these different birds have a wine that just represents that whole variety, all the varieties of the world and how they come together into a single bottle. That's going to be my blend. You can do something if you want to see what got Avi into wine in the first place, just like you're going to see what got Owen and Quentin into bird watching in the first place. Go for that E. guignol. I'm gonna have look up that. I know which name that is. I gotta look it up to know how to pronounce it right. But that one, the 2022 Cote de Rhone or Dallas' Alsatian or Alsatian. uh is the obnoxious incorrect way to say it. 2017 Pinot Noir from Trimbach. Those are our pairings for Listers and guys, it's free on YouTube. I will have a link down below to the documentary that will take you there directly. Also, don't forget our petition to get it on Letterboxd. You will have that link down below in the description of this episode as well. All right. Thank you so much for joining us, Avi, as a grand finale. One more time, where can people find you online? uh TheBigBreakFilm.com is where I'll be promoting the film. just started it and I'm really only on sub stacks. You can just look up my name at Avi Sutton. And I'll be setting or Nandi uprising dot substack dot com. If you want to. I'll have a link down below for that as well. So you can you can click to his profile. You can click to his website. We'll figure out. I'll have all the links, all the links. It'll all be clickable and it'll be wonderful. All right. All right. Thanks so much. That wraps this up. Absolutely. Thanks so much. And once again, before uh you go, dear listeners. Do you love what we do here? Wine and movie pairings? Well, make sure to follow us and subscribe to this podcast. Also leave us a rating and review because all these things make it easier for others to find out about us as well. No one's looking for a wine and movie pairing podcast. Let's be honest with each other. No one knows such a thing exists. But if you are listening to this, you probably have to admit it's pretty frippity frappity cool. everyone who wants to find out about us should be able to find out about us. So please follow, rate and review. We deeply appreciate it. Even better, and to endear yourself even more to our completely self-obsessed hearts, go follow us on Substack. Just go to entertainmentstudios.com, where we will keep you all up to date on all our upcoming live in-person wine and movie events, like the one that happened yesterday, as we were discussing earlier, as well as bonus wine and entertainment pairings, collabs with other writers, filmmakers, and wine peeps. And if you ask nicely, we'll help you with your own wine and movie pairing. Just ask. We love doing this. We are super okay with doing it more. And many thanks to I need to I need to I need to second chance at this because I screwed it up last time. Please this is all back of the house stuff. I'll be ignoring and many thanks to our sponsor curated wine shop. No idea where to begin finding a wine that pairs with your movie. That's okay. Almost literally no one does but curated is here to help. They accept every entertainment inspired challenge and will curate the selection to match your palate. Just tell them what you're trying to pair with your budget, your preferences, and they will show you the way. Curated is a boutique wine shop on La Brea Avenue, Mid City Los Angeles founded and operated by Peeps currently and previously part of the entertainment ecosystem. Johnny. Kelly, Allison and Mia, they're all fantastic. Trust me, they really are. Go meet them. You will not be disappointed. They carry an ever-changing, wide-ranging selection of small lot artisanal wines from the known and comforting to the completely unique. Reds, whites, rosés, oranges, sparklings, dry wines, sweet wines, and everything in between. We mean it. Everything in between. So go check them out. If you're in the LA area, find them online at curated dash wines dot com. They do ship that's curated dash wines dot com and entertainment studios dot com for us. You're entertainment pros. So thank you so much for listening. And we will be back in one week with another wine and entertainment pairing for your entertainment. Thanks, Avi and ciao for now, guys.