The Mick & Pat Show

The Mick & Pat Show - Thresholds Will Get You Killed

• Mick and Pat • Season 3 • Episode 11

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:19:03

Send us Fan Mail

Few things are more humbling than watching yourself "die" repeatedly during tactical training. That's exactly what happened when we gathered a group of friends for an intensive Close Quarters Battle (CQB) course at our headquarters.

The first and most crucial lesson we learned? Thresholds kill. Those doorways, windows, and transitions between spaces are where most operators meet their end – hesitating for even a millisecond can be fatal. We Break down some real-world footage of trained professionals making fatal mistakes in doorways, bringing home the stark reality that Hollywood-style room clearing is pure fantasy.

As we progressed through increasingly complex scenarios, adding hostile combatants armed with gel blasters, we discovered just how challenging CQB truly is. Even our highly experienced instructors "died" repeatedly during demonstrations. The most sobering realization? John Wick wouldn't survive the first scene of his own movie.

Beyond the tactical skills, the greatest value came from developing the right mindset under stress. Learning to maintain clear thinking, make quick decisions, and adapt when plans inevitably collapse proved far more valuable than any specific technique. While most civilians will never need offensive CQB skills, the mental training translates to numerous emergency scenarios.

The weekend left us with newfound respect for those who perform these operations professionally – and a healthy dose of realism about our own capabilities when bullets start flying through walls.

Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm
Attorneys For Freedom Law Firm: Attorneys on Retainer Program

Podpage
With Podpage, you can build a beautiful podcast website in 5 minutes (or less).

The Mick and Pat HQ
Check out our website.

Audible
Signup for your free 30-day trial of Audible now & get your first book for free!

Karl Casey a.k.a. White Bat Audio
Music by Karl Casey @WhiteBatAudio

Primary Arms
Primary Arms is who we trust for our firearm related purchases!

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

Speaker 1

so I was watching this video, uh-huh. All right, actually I'm just gonna send it to you because I have it, I have it in my messages on my phone here somewhere and you can just uh take a look here. Actually, it's probably even just easier to uh play it on my phone here for you. But, um, it's just a compilation video of uh, uh, like in a short it's like I don't know, maybe 30 seconds, but it's a it's dudes dying in the threshold, um, and for people who are listening, who don't understand, um, the threshold is any transitory space, uh, such as a doorway, a window, things like that, and there is this compilation. Now, I can't, of course, find it right, because YouTube is going to be a pain in my butt, but it was just essentially law enforcement getting stuck in the threshold at times and not moving, or some CQB military operations that were recorded and they were not moving through the threshold effectively and getting killed, and it's not like super graphic, like it doesn't show you, like you know, people dying. Well, I mean, it kind of does.

Speaker 1

But like you don't see them bleeding, yeah, that's the thing is like you could tell like they lost because they panicked and hesitated before going in threshold, and a lot of people don't realize that they're doing it. And that was one thing like I learned from our cqb course was that there's two or three times where I was told like hey, like the first time I was like I was told like hey, you paused for quite a bit in that threshold and no one died, but you could have died. And then the second time I hesitated for like a millisecond but it was still like hey, you know, that would have, that could have cost you your life in that moment. And then the third time, I did hesitate and I got hit with a what are these orbeez with the gel blaster, the gel blast, the gel blaster got me and it was like not even a real, real hesitation. You know, I mean it was so brief, but I it was like it was a brief of like okay, wait, that's a, that's a no shoot. Turn, that's a no shoot and that step in and it all this happens in the span of like a tenth of a second right and then that step in.

Speaker 1

After that momentary hesitation, even though I was on the move again is when I got hit, um, and if I had just pushed in and move, kept moving and dealt with threat assessment after the fact, I wouldn't have been hit because I would have seen the dude with the gel blaster shooting me. But anyways, the part of that was, at one point I was stacked up behind you, pat, and I was pushing on you and I was like, get in, get in.

Speaker 1

Get in, because you realize too, when you're last being on stack you can't help secure anything until the dude in front of you is through that threshold Right, especially on a 180 threshold like this office is.

Speaker 2

Yeah, for sure, and so I just wasn't ready to die. But I will walk you through my thinking on it.

Speaker 2

For sure. Yeah, as we were running these drills, going through, I do think guys were either pushing through the threshold way too fast or way too slow, meaning I guess my thought process on this one was because I wasn't standing in the threshold as I hadn't cleared it yet and I wanted to get an angle to see coming in. So I was a third man, we had first man in, second man in, third man in and what I noticed, lots of us were trying to just get through the door as fast as possible. Noticed lots of us were trying to just get through the door as fast as possible, which, once you make, I was in my mind, what I was trying to do is, once you make that decision or step to go through the threshold, to move through the door. That is when, yes, that has to be like a hundred percent speed, like once you've committed you, you got to move through it.

Speaker 2

But what was happening in some of these drills was we would say you know, one, two, three go and first, second, third guy would bust through there and I'll just die, cause they were just like they would just run in the room, versus like any sort of um, like you can take an angle on a door and peek and see and then pie a little and then push through into a room. And so I was. That was kind of that's where I was. I was trying to move slower and then, at that point of moving through, once we moved through I don't know if I did or didn't move through fast, but that was, that was my active thought process. Now, what my body was actually doing I don't know, because this was so new to all of us. You have what you think you're doing and then you have the replay and you're like oh, I thought I was doing something totally different. And so that's where, for CQB in general, I just hear a lot of guys say like it's a lot slower than you always think.

Speaker 2

Now, standing in the door, you will die if there's somebody right to engage you. So that, which is where you know it sounds like there's lots of these the video you're referring to where you have people getting hung up in the door. So like, um, and in this specific room, corner fed room, we could see one, we could see one angle straight down, but we couldn't see the deep side of the room. So it's actually, and it's a really, actually a really hard room to clear because you can't get an angle, especially with the curtains, with the curtains and with the wall. The door is against the corner on the wall, so you can't. It's against the wall on the excuse me on the right side. You can't move any further right? Just try to see videos of what I was doing versus what I thought I looked like I was doing in my head. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2

But yeah, and what we're talking about is what we're going to be talking about kind of probably the rest of the evening, which is CQB, close quarters, combat and really fun training that we got to do this past weekend.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it was really sick. And, to your point, pat, I had no real firearm CQB training. I had done stuff with the sheriff department for going in and doing stuff within the jail and you got your essentially riot armor riot gear on and maybe you got a 40 mil for firing tear gas, but everyone else just has shields and baton and assumably now this isn't not you can't 100, but assumably nobody with rifles pointed back at you or handguns.

Speaker 1

But you know what I mean you're, you're, it's a different approach I think it requires the governor giving approval before any individual can go in right.

Speaker 2

Sorry, and I mean, but I mean the person you're trying to take down.

Speaker 1

Oh yeah, no one I'm trying to take down has a gun, probably.

What We Learned in CQB Training

Speaker 2

So the approach is similar but different in that. Yeah, so the training to your point which you're saying is where the you've had that kind of training where you're stacked up on people. There's a procedure and a way to move through it. But then the firearm piece with the bad guys and the good guys, having them really changes.

Speaker 1

I mean it's it's crazy, I and I'm curious. I never got to be the opponent, I never got to be the terrorist oh yeah and you got to be the, you got to be the hostiles quite a bit. Oh yeah, that's.

Speaker 2

That's the best and I'm sure, the perspective of being from the hostel to then being like on a team stacked up to go in is radically different oh, yeah, like, I would say like, uh, and we'll get into more of like how we, maybe the progression, how we trained what we did, but like, honestly, like I'd have killed everybody every time, yeah, as the hostile.

Speaker 2

Sure, just from the like you have, just from just the advantage of being set in a position, pointed at a three foot wide threshold door, where someone's coming through in a threshold and it's and that's where cqb is scary and very, very, very, very hard to do, um, especially if you, your opponent, is aware, you're aware you're coming through there and armed, or E and or equally armed to what you're doing, and so the um, and if you're into, we'll get into it more. But if you're in a more of like a civilian environment versus a, uh, you know, tactical war environment where you have things like grenades and overwatch and thermals, all these other things that like you're, like you know that you're using, so uh, it's, uh, I was surprised how bad I was at it, I think everybody was.

Speaker 1

You know what I mean? I think everybody, regardless of even people who had done it before, were surprised at like. I mean, that was one thing we did do like I remember we did it a couple times with our trainers stacked up with us. We did do like I remember we did it a couple times with our trainers stacked up with us.

Speaker 2

The trainers died just as much as we did right, for as cool as f and cqb bro, for as cool as they looked doing the demonstrations. Yeah, right, and they did look smooth, they did look good, but it's just. That's why, like, I mean the guys I've talked to who have done the done the real deal, they're like it's scary every time yeah, and it takes a lot, takes a lot of guts to go through there every time you do it before I forget hey, ken, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1

Uh, if you're listening, we appreciate you.

Speaker 1

Um, if you're not tracking what's going on, we did a close quarters combat training.

Speaker 1

Uh, here at the headquarters, where we had ourselves and a good, oh, probably another 15 homies plus a couple instructors, show up and run through the course together, and the instructors were all former military.

Speaker 1

Three of them were like former airborne and did you know the real stuff training for it in afghanistan, um, and then two others, I believe I can't remember what their mos were, but they had worked together in like um two-man cqb teams and such like that.

Speaker 1

So, uh, guys with some like real, like real skills and stuff, um, and could actually properly assess you and give you feedback on, you know, a legitimate, almost like one-on-one thing, because we were running teams entering in of like either four man or five man teams entering in, and then you'd have pretty much three to five instructors watching and reviewing what you did and you'd pretty much almost always get one-on-one feedback of like, hey, this is what you did, this is what you did, good, this is what you did that got you killed, stuff like that. But anyways, here is the video that you can play and it immediately starts off with a bang. Bro, this is an ATF guy with an MP5 trying to get in through a curtained window, and you can tell he's ATF not only by his like stuff, but also by how poorly trained he is Gosh.

Speaker 2

Yeah, let's see here, oh man oh.

Speaker 1

Yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 2

Where were those other?

Speaker 1

shots coming from. Were they through the wall? Through the wall? Yeah, we'll. We'll scroll through these videos, kind of um and kind of break them down a little bit, just from what we learned. But I just wanted pat to see like these threshold videos, because it does. It does show what we were being taught and even though we didn't see anything like this of course you can't learn this while being taught the course you see it applied and you're like, oh, shoot, okay, I can see how what they were training us, if you fail to do it leads to people dying.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and the other part not knowing about.

Speaker 1

oh, yeah, that cop just got shot in the head, and then the other guy just ran away. Yep, that dude just ran, ran away, by the way don't stack up outside of giant massive windows in the daylight and the other thing people don't, people forget about is like just that stuff goes through walls so easily yeah you know, yeah, the wind, I mean, that's the thing is like a window is not going to stop a bullet from hitting you, but people, people, treat windows like they're. What is it Cover instead of concealment? Right, right.

Speaker 2

So yeah, it's a I'll say the way especially that second group moved. It's surprising, especially that second group moved.

Speaker 1

it's surprising like I don't want to say, like maybe we were moving better, I don't mean I was told by the end of day that the improvement on everyone's part was pretty massive, um, and I just sent you these so you can kind of scroll through them with me and, uh, you know, perhaps I'll our editor craig, will have these videos in the in the podcast video this week. That's a good point, um, but, um, first one up is, of course, like, there's this atf guy hanging out front right. I feel like this is just a good place to start to kind of break through, like cqb training, what we learned right, but, um, he's on a roof outside of a window. He's start to kind of break through, like cqb training, what we learned right, but, um, he's on a roof outside of a window. He's trying to pull a curtain back so he can see inside and decide if he wants to go in or not.

Speaker 1

And the whole thing is whoever's in that room, because this guy's outside in daylight is clearly seeing a silhouette of someone with an mp5 trying to get in through that window. And they just start firing rounds off through the wall and I assume the rounds are further back initially, because they're assuming there's other dudes stacked up with them and you start seeing the rounds. The first couple rounds go off behind him totally oblivious. He's like damn, there's gunshots. Boom, gets hit in the shoulder and he goes down covering his face while more rounds are flying through right. And it's one of those things of like this guy's really lucky that the guy thought I'll throw these first seven rounds through the wall where the other dudes are stacked up. He had a clean ladder slide. It was a pretty clean slide down.

Speaker 1

He was getting the heck out of there I think this just shows if there's anything the ATF practices, it's retreating. This just shows if there's anything the ATF practices, it's retreating. The second video is these police stacked up outside of like an apartment condo and there's three of them bunched up. They break a door down and they're pying from and this is what they're training us in CQB. Right, this is what they really went over and we got to see firsthand.

Analyzing Real-Life CQB Failures

Speaker 1

When one of the instructors was like hey, I'm gonna pie this corner so you guys can see what happens and he was the he immediately got domed by a gel blaster right in the face, right in the face, and went down it out and, like he literally said, when he went down, he's like this is an example of why you don't want to always pie, especially if you're looking from a bright environment into a dark environment and pying, being like the layman term, would be like just holding your gun up and like kind of moot, like you know, moving left to right, looking slow around the door yeah, yeah, if you think of the door as a threshold and the door is open now you can only see so much.

Speaker 1

If you're standing flush against the wall and if you slowly come off the wall an inch to your left or right whichever direction would move you across the front of the doorway you're going to see a little bit more of the room, like every step, every inch, and that's slicing it. You're, you're getting a slice of this 180 degree field of view beyond the door and it's advantageous actually to pie corners and pie doors when you believe you know you're probably searching for someone, but there could be hostiles or like search and rescue scenarios because you don't know what could be over there, such as like debris or an animal or something like that. And Pine the Door is also really excellent. And especially like in a scenario where you know you have one threat and they're like in the corner of the room and you already have a positive ID on them and you're just making sure okay, are there any other civilians, any other like you know other non-hostels that might be in the area?

Speaker 1

And I would say it's even more advantageous if you're imagine standing outside a house or a warehouse, so it's not creepy and they have their garage bay open and the light's on inside and you're out and it's dark out. They outside, they can't see you, they just see the light, you know, spilling out into the first 10 feet of their driveway. But you can go across the full, you know, uh breadth of that, uh, transition that opening, that threshold and you can get a lot of like, you can essentially see a lot of what's going on without having to expose and reveal yourself. When you're a pine, from the bright side into the dark side, you're just a silhouette and good luck seeing something when your eyes are used to like the really bright, like exterior or interior, right.

Speaker 1

So uh and that's what happens in the second video.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and in this case of this video too, like he wasn't pushed far enough, like he was standing in the middle of the door, so, like pine too, like, go ahead. He wasn't pushed all the way to the to be where he needed to be, either.

Speaker 1

Like, I mean it's a wall so he doesn't really have cover.

Speaker 2

But yeah, he had no real concealment he's right, but I mean, but I mean and silhouetting himself completely as that door opens up. He's just standing in the middle versus he either needed to switch that rifle over so that it's first. Also because that's the thing too, there's methods to all this too where this guy he stuck his head out, head around first, versus his head's getting visual before his rifle is yeah Right, versus switching or pushing over to the side, it's like, yeah, it's hard to know what to do Because it's a bad situation.

Speaker 1

I'll tell you what they should have done.

Speaker 2

Send a dog.

Speaker 1

I think the most obvious thing here is that they ram that door with a Battery ram. No one goes in and everyone's hesitating and everyone's choked up and they should have rushed that room all four of them they, they needed it. Yeah, because it's clear the shooter here wasn't ready to take that shot until he felt real good about it right, it's a go or no.

Speaker 1

Go like yeah, and that's where the the same thing, where, like, once you're, once you're in the door, you need to go in yep, I mean, and I've seen stuff also too where, like they'll'll do something to distract or even just corner, fire one of these windows out and toss a flashbang or a smoke or anything in, just to grab someone's attention right as you cross threshold and go in through the door. Oh for sure, and the fact that they open this and no one goes in there's a ton of hesitancy Again because the door's closing on them.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they don't really officially have someone in charge of the door or someone who's pushed all the way to the side. And watching this video too, like we were saying at the beginning of the show, it's like I'd like to see what I looked like versus what I thought I was doing.

Speaker 1

Hey, the video's on its way out. But yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2

That's true, doing a lot of editing right now, but, like the um, in this guy's case you know he's doing his thing. He's thinking about a billion things. He probably thinks he's on it, he's not. No, from somebody like me who's really has zero experience watching it going. Here's five things. He did wrong. Sure, you know, and so like the, but in general standing in the door also bro who ran away.

Speaker 1

That's the thing too. Man is like if you all push in, it's a lot harder for your homies to leave you. Yeah.

Speaker 1

You know, what I mean. If you're all in that room together with a mindset of like we're pushing in, we're getting this guy, then like you're less likely to probably leave one of your homies up there to die and abandon them. Uh. The next video, though, is a classic one of like standing in the threshold exchanging fire back and forth and then, rather than committing and going forward or falling back, dude just stands behind a wall, and that wall is not explosive, bruce, and uh, that was something we did, where I remember a lot of people were like kind of some people huff and puffed, but uh, it was when we were doing two four-man stacks and one of the stacks went up the stairs here to the office and then they hit the door and the instructor's like you're all dead and like why he's like it's a bomb. It was a scenario of like a bomb or explosive on the other side of the door which, yeah, it's like cheating. It was like, well, we're not doing bomb defusal today, but the purpose of that was to simulate.

Speaker 1

Can the team who first came in and secured, then now transition to fill and secure the upstairs, because everyone who was supposed to secure the upstairs just got freaking, you know, became a casualty.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and it was also a point made of, like when we were practicing breaching and, uh and um, examining the door before going in, it was one of those things that made it like if you lean up or touch that door too much or knock on it or hit the handle too much, testing to see if it's unlocked, there's a good chance you're just going to start taking rounds through the freaking sheet metal. Or if you accidentally test that door handle and open the door and it is tripped or something you just now tripped, explosive, and you're all boned. And it was just one of those things that I was like, wow, okay, like there's a lot that, like we are going over that. I saw a couple eye rolls at that day and now I'm seeing this footage. I'm like, damn bro, like it's actually, like it can be like that in some environments not an environment I foresee myself getting into. Right, here's my thing. I never, I never, ever, ever want or plan to right and because it's that's.

Speaker 1

It's on the offensive side too it is on the offensive side and I can't even think like. I'm thinking like somehow if I'm alive in a world without rule of law. You know we're talking end of the world as we know it, stuff, and our women have been kidnapped and they're in some house or cave and we have to go get them back. I think that's the only way I can see myself doing cqb, otherwise I'm like they have to eat and get water too. We'll just pick them off there. You know what I?

Speaker 1

mean, like I'm just, I just I'm trying to run through my head like a real scenario where I'm like, oh you know, it's a matter of time, carpet dpe, diem, first one to get action, is going to win this and clean them out. Like no way, dude, you go. Even if it's like three Bubba Fuds with hunting rifles and shotguns, you try going into that house with an equal force or less. I highly doubt you're clear John Wick is not real. That was the biggest thing I learned from CQB. Right, it's like there is no universe where John Wick lives in the first movie or the first, the first scene yeah, come into his house.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, definitely, and I will say the the more. The most applicable stuff about this is the mindset ability to, in the moment, um, make the right choices. Not get panicky, do you know? Be able to keep your head on your, on your shoulders. But then also you could say the other most like applicable thing would be clearing your own house from the inside.

Speaker 1

For sure, that'd be like a home intruder and you're like Gosh damn, my kids are in the basement.

Speaker 2

I need to go floor to floor until I get to them Exactly that would be the most Applicable for like the actual Style or method of like. You know that movement through something Cause I'll be honest. If a home intruder came to my house Now and Billy Jean and I are in bed, you're just gonna lock the door and call the cops and sit barricaded until either they come through that door and they get smoked or I might whistle for Takani to come up, yeah but like you know you know, I would call her up, and if she doesn't respond, then I'm like all right, they killed my dog.

Speaker 2

I'm smoking people.

Speaker 1

Or she's asking them to pet her. Yeah, yeah, that's true, uh, but it is one of those things where, like, even if there's a home intruder, do I see myself doing cqb?

Speaker 2

not unless I can't like I might between you and a loved one unless they're between you and something you need. Yeah, like a gummy bear or like've got leftovers. I've got leftover steak in that fridge, be damned.

Speaker 1

You're not taking my steak.

Speaker 2

You're not taking my Dungeons and Dragons Exactly, I will say the real world applicability of what we were doing is going to be very rare, very, very rare, unless you really seek out a lifestyle where you're, unless you're law enforcement right exactly like that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1

We're seeking that out, and even then, like we just see so many videos of these law enforcement guys who shouldn't be doing it. Yeah, or?

Speaker 2

just got no good reason, or you just never end up in that situation, hopefully, right, right and so, um, I think, when I talk to law enforcement or military guys, really the guys who I think are really have matured through this. They're on the back end of the coolness of it, but y'all, to be honest, I'm on the front end of the coolness of it.

Speaker 1

Yeah, like this is sick, I think it's dope. I want to keep on practicing. I never want to have to do it in real life exactly.

Speaker 2

But the guys who are on the back side of it, who are really like been there, done that type of stuff, like yeah they always.

Speaker 2

The one word they always tell to me is mindset, like, mindset, mindset, like.

Speaker 2

I don't care how good you are at your marksmanship or you're like it like any skill you have, like I really don't care what you have, but your mindset in a situation is the, and your ability to maintain that mindset in a high stress environment is the number one thing that is most important and most looked for and needs to be most trained.

Speaker 2

And I think what's cool about that is you can take this thing that I think is fun and cool to do and you know, clearing through a warehouse and actually stress test yourself to a point where just other areas of life also you can like it's not seeing a shoot, no, shoot target, it's also being like all right, there was a four car pile up, I just came up on the scene and I'm not losing my shit. Yeah, like that kind of like, like that mindset ability, you know, and I think that's the most valuable thing to take away from doing these trainings um, and the most, uh, I'd say, short of. If you find yourself in the situation, then yeah, good to have all of it, but the most likely case of needing these things would be just your mental state and ability to cope in the moment. That being said, I do still kind of think it's cool and I like doing it.

Civilians vs Military Training Approaches

Speaker 1

It is really, really sick. If, like people who just don't know like what the hell we're talking about, just watch a couple forward observation cqb videos and you'll see what it looks like when you are like very, very highly trained, squared away and working with a team, and even in a couple of his cqb videos, instructors are correcting him and his team on things that would have gotten guys killed or something right. Um, and we are, that's like what. What you see in those videos are professorate level expertise and what you see like what we did is like elementary to maybe I think we got to middle school.

Speaker 2

I think we got to middle school by the end of the day I think we showed up to orientation, depending on your like, like high school orientation, no. I think we showed up to like the. This is what this is like meaning. Like, I think, because it you don't even think we got. We got out of fifth grade. Well, it depends on what like we're, what we're judging by. Sure, I'm talking about?

Speaker 1

I guess I think what I'm talking about is understanding of what it is, how to do it and how to recognize what went wrong and where to improve. Recognize what went wrong and where to improve.

Speaker 2

And that's where I do think, if we're taking like a large scale, like 30,000 foot view on this, I think that was a weekend training camp before you go trial for football and like because here's what I'll say, what kind of football are we talking about? I'm saying this is before you like, because let me break this down just real quick, because for folks like you hear things like SEAL, team 6, you hear things like Delta Force, you hear things like HRT, that's the FBI's hostage rescue team.

Speaker 2

And then you hear things like boiling down even way further, it'd be like SWAT, whatever. So, like those big three I just talked about, basically their job is cqb, like that is the time like that that's their own like, so.

Speaker 2

So whenever you hear like nowadays, it used to not be, but that's that's where war is at currently because what we've moved to with it, so meaning, like these guys who are the pinnacle of this, of you know any anything that's cool stuff? Those are the teams who are on it. They're doing cqb, and cqb is their mission. Like there is like, there is such a specific like that's not even how you fight a war, like now it's a piece of how you fight a war, but like, so like it's such a tiny little scalpel or like, like microscopic, like tool in the bag of war fighting.

Speaker 2

But those, those teams get the most recognition and the most like um, like more, or like you know, prestige, right, and so like um, if we're going on that level of like, of like, of like, what does it take to be? If you want to be in the most elite quote unquote groups in American military, you gotta be the best CQB here on on the planet. So, so now, taking that now. So that's when I say like, that's when I say we showed up to. That's NFL.

Speaker 1

Right, I think we did elementary school.

Speaker 2

Right, yeah, and so I think I do think also, I'd say, compared to your average Joe out there, we leveled up, but just to be like, there is still like there's guys who like, even taking out all those Big three teams, there's just guys who eat, sleep and breathe this whole thing, and I think that we got a really cool peek into the, into that world, you know. And so like, like, and now, from here, if you want to keep doing it, now it's time to. Now you progress, now you learn, now you break it down into tinier little, you microanalyze this, that and the other. You get good at you know where, literally, taking one step through a doorway could have 50 things you did wrong.

Speaker 2

Okay, now we're going to break that down, break that down, break that down, break that down. And so, like the, I do think, from where we started that day when we came in in, now we do have a understanding of the process, how it works, what we do, but it's just like one. Obviously reps are important, but then two, doing them good, is important, and so I think, depending on how you look at it, yes, we got like our, I think we got through elementary school with it, like to your point, but then also like to this other, like what that the world of cqb means. There is still like a a lot to do.

Speaker 1

If you want to like keep moving through that, oh for sure, yeah, that's what I'm saying and like, I think, like, because I, I think it elementary school is pretty much like cool, you showed up with a, you showed up with the tools.

Speaker 1

Now let's just get to the point where you're not actually like I think elementary school. Now let's just get to the point where you're not actually like I think elementary school is like can we get to the point where you're not killing your homies with the tools, where you're not causing the, where you're not a hiccup and like you know how to do it and you know like, okay, the only way anyone's dying is if the bad guys get us right, because now we're squaring away enough that we know the process and the maneuver and what the rules are and how to identify where to fill in, and I would say most people graduate in elementary school at the end of that day, yeah, and for where it started in the morning to where we left in the end of the day, it was night and day difference on people's ability to move through that.

Speaker 1

For sure. And I'll say one thing too I think I don't know I got, I didn't count it right, but I I definitely think I quote unquote died as in I would, I would have gotten. I failed to find and identify a uh shoot target. And this was before we even like having instructors call out you're dead, you're dead, right. This was before we even like having instructors call out you're dead, you're dead right.

Speaker 1

This was just like things that I noticed on myself. There was, like I'm pretty sure, six or seven times where I was like okay, I died, and I know why I died. I know how I died. It wasn't a cheat thing. It wasn't like well, no, I said bang, bang. You know, it wasn't anything like that. It was like like I did not cover that corner because I just assumed someone else was, and now me and that guy both died yep and it would, and like that is the most valuable thing there.

Speaker 1

And I, and I think like the introductory training right is like you're going into a space, just think of it as like an open rectangle, and in an open rectangle, how many angles are there? There's gonna be four, yeah, and you're going in through the door. Maybe it's a corner door, all right, you get to almost eliminate one, but not really because the dude's on the back side of that door, in that corner, and so like. It's all about, just like, making sure your understanding of like. Do you, are you aware of who is handling what? Are they still handling it? Are you handling your area of coverage? And if you're down, did someone move in to cover you? If someone else went down, were you aware of it and listening and paying attention and able to transition to fill their need? And that was, honestly, I was told that was our goal. I was told, by the end of the day, if you can get to the point where you can recognize the need and fill the need, we've succeeded today and I think we got there, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

And I think it was crazy too. As we progressed through the day, we started with just like your basic cardboard targets and this was all no live fire, just pointing our gun and saying yeah we had bolts out of ars or we had you.

Speaker 1

You know, we had individual designated. A designated instructor went through and checked each and every single one of the mags to make sure there was no ammo on site in the facility. People were told not to bring ammo anyways. No one even had ammo in their concealed carry.

Speaker 2

Right.

Speaker 1

And so it was like we were. We were super squared away Yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 2

And so we were just. But as we did this, as we added in more and more layers of complexity, once we added in having real combatants and or just real people involved. That showed you how fast the chaos gets real, when it was am I supposed to shoot this guy, am I not? Okay now, but I'm not supposed to shoot him, but I at least need to handcuff him or you know, or get control of him, and I still can't trust him. You know it, like it was the uh, um, how I shot some civilians.

Speaker 1

right, right, I shot some civilians I was straight up one time where I was yelling at this instructor who was could be a hassle, could not be a hassle. I was like show me your hands, show me your hands. And like he's like looking at me reaching his hands show me your fucking hands. I just like. I just start pulling the trigger. I'm like bang, bang, bang, bang and he goes down and falls and as he falls down and stretches his arms out, I just see a gatorade bottle roll away rather than the gel blaster and I was like shit.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that one's on badge cam, though I told him to show me his hands and he kept on reaching what. I didn't have a choice. There's literally a dead guy with a gun right next to him. Like what was I supposed to do?

Speaker 2

no, yeah, it just shows you. It's just like those little uh additions of realism yeah, go to show like where it's like oh my gosh, this is really, uh, um, so stressful. It's. It's not a video game, it's not like it doesn't just play out easy, it's like it's yeah, there's a lot that could happen. Oh. So it's funny with some of the guys who had here the um. Some guys were like playing airsoft instead of training in that like it'd be like bro, no, like I shot you, you're dead, yeah, and it's like there's a little bit of going back and forth with uh calls.

Speaker 1

You know I'm like you don't get it. Yeah, like you both shot each other. Yeah, like, no, like you died very likely you're bleeding on the floor yeah, and so, like I don't know, I didn't feel it. It's like no, bro, like you died but you know so, you didn't feel either when it was 308 right, which all they're doing is in that that case is like robbing themselves, yeah. Because if you win, at training. But you cheat and or not?

Speaker 2

and cheat's a strong word there but you just kind of like you know, don't take that part like, don't take it seriously that like you failed, or don't take criticism, then when it really happens it doesn't matter that you trained yeah, you know, yeah, and I think, um, one thing I really loved was like I told the lead instructor.

Speaker 1

I was like, and I told a couple of his guys and two of his guys really responded super positively to it, but I was like, hey, please, please, please, please, help me see where I choke up like, and I would go out of my way to ask them after each run. I did, I was like. So I did this because I thought this was the right call. Is that good or is that bad? Was that the right call? Was that the wrong call?

Speaker 1

There's a couple times you're like I know, yep, I get what you're saying and I understand why you think that it was the wrong call and here's why. And let's play it back. And then there was a lot of times where I felt awesome because I was like I did this and they're like that was the right choice. That was squared away and I was like, oh man, like I'm on cloud nine because I feel like I'm getting it, I feel like I'm learning it. Um, and still, even after those ones where, like, I was told like, hey, man, you made the right call, there are still three, four times where I got freaking shot in the face you know what I?

Speaker 1

mean, like, right after that, and it was so like. It was super insightful and very rewarding and the way it was so dynamic, which I thought was like just a props to like our environment here. Like our environment here, everyone said throughout the day this is hell, this is a nightmare, right. This would suck to do like real life cqb in because you got, you know, two levels and you got guys who can essentially have concealment while having eyes on you. I mean, there was that one time, pat, where you were playing, uh, you know, op four and you were in the freaking cupboard and you came out after we had pretty much secured the ground floor and getting ready to leave and you start, you open the covered doors and start shooting at people and it was sick because I saw you get lit up with flashlights and lasers and riddled oh yeah. But it was one of those things where it was like who on ground floor didn't clear that?

Speaker 2

They didn't check it. Yeah, no one checked that. I love being the bad guy because, yeah one, you're so calm as the bad guy.

Speaker 1

It's so funny. Like other guys, I was literally like, I wasn't stressed, but I was funny Like other guys. Like I was literally like that.

Speaker 2

I wasn't stressed, but I was like it was kind of my heart rate.

Weapon Selection for Practical CQB

Speaker 1

My heart rate was up every time I stacked up outside the door, especially when I was in first place.

Speaker 2

And you're over, you're over, you're overthinking every single like it's going to be so dark yeah.

Speaker 1

It's going to be so hard and we had the window covered to the door so you can't see any.

Speaker 2

you can't cheat through the window at all yeah, and I'll say too, since it snowed that day it was. Well, it was so bright and we came into a dark room. So the the transition from light to dark was. I mean, we're in there with our eyes adjusted and you're busting through a snow white dude, you know door and and like I'm just sitting in there happy and I'm about to shoot somebody with a gel blaster.

Speaker 1

How many times did you get to stack up outside and come in Outside?

Speaker 2

I think I did it at least over five, like over a handful of times. You got a good exposure.

Speaker 1

I got the reps in, but then there was literally, like at the end of the day I noticed I was getting eye strain, oh yeah, like from going so bright outside and like my eyes adjusting to that and then coming in and it was. It was weird, man, like it was legit felt like camera exposure in my eyes with how long it took for my eyes to adjust, sometimes by the like, the, you know the 20th, right, yeah, because you guys ran a lot and I ran inside a lot, because I do, I actually I really like just well, it's also your target, yeah, and like setting up targets, setting up traps, like rethinking, like what's gonna happen to guys, and it's just fun, yes, but it's.

Speaker 2

what's funny about that is one totally calm, totally relaxed, like just smiling on my face because I know I'm about to gel, blast or somebody, and then um, um, and then the other piece being when you guys are coming in and everything's happening, just watching it unfold, watching how guys come through and seeing. I did enjoy, too, watching guys improve and watching some guys making the right calls and doing the right stuff all the time. And also I enjoyed when one guy snuck past me and he didn't see me and I shot him in the back of the head and he was so like uh, you can see it, he was.

Speaker 2

Yeah, he was just like dang it Like.

Speaker 1

Dang it Like, cause it's not just it's not just I died, I'm dead, like I am legit dead, because that was the weirdest feeling, like doing it over and over and like when you died. I mean some guys, like you said, weren't taking it like serious, but like for me, every time it was, I was like gosh, like I am not as good as I think I am you know what I mean.

Speaker 2

Like I'm not immortal.

Speaker 1

I, I'm not John Wick and like this is an insane like reality experience to be like more majority of the time I'm dying when it's CQB, yep and the first five runs there were no targets at all. It was just like no targets, just make sure the space is clear. And so it was like those are a gimme. I Uh-huh, and so it was like those are a gimme. I didn't get shot at the first five times. After that it was like over 50% of the time I died.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and we ramped it up pretty fast on that and I will say for the guys who, like I do think everybody took it seriously, but some people took themselves more seriously than the training.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 2

So like, just kind of like a, and so it just yeah, you're right, everyone did take it seriously. But like, just like the, the piece being, if you um, pull your ego out of it all the way, you're going to get so much more out of it just by by letting letting it happen.

Speaker 1

And I I had a. I will will say too. I think the ego part can be hard sometimes because I'm very used to the very curt, blunt correction from instructors. I'm used to an instructor grabbing me by like the head, being like what is your malfunction? You know, I mean like unf and like so, like that's not, like that's not alien to me. There is definitely.

Speaker 1

I saw a couple of times where, like these instructors that we had, were they're great dudes. I think they're great dudes, right, but they definitely were a little too curt perhaps or maybe too indirect with this. And it came off as indirect because they're assuming this person has the previous experience and knowledge to understand what they're trying to get them to learn or realize. And there was moments where, like I could see they're like what are you doing fucking wrong right now? Look around, what are you doing wrong? And like they're talking to someone who's never had to look around in a warehouse with other dudes with guns and assume, like, figure out, like what they're doing wrong, you know what I mean, and so it like I saw just some people literally short circuit, which isn't a.

Speaker 1

I don't think that's something against those people, but I do think that's like part of the learning experience and something to understand is like, when you're dealing with people who teach these kind of courses CQB and things like that you're going to be dealing with people who have not had to approach it from a inexperienced civilian mindset in a very, very, very long time one person grew up and is indoctrinated into the military, the other guy is not, yeah, and doesn't know that, like, especially like, uh, let's say if, if someone came up to you and they just said you know, like, what the fuck is your damage, you know?

Speaker 2

like, did your mom drop you on your head as a child? Yeah, you know, you know. And your mom drop you on your head as a child. Yeah, you know, you know and gave you the full like the drill sergeant ripping in certain areas of life, most areas of life. Those are fighting words.

Speaker 2

Yeah versus like in a corrective words or no, but it's like, it's like I will, I will. I think that, like I'm totally should be offended by you and I should be offended that you said that to me. Yeah, but from guys who came from the military standpoint they're like no, I mean, that means I love you.

Speaker 1

I'm trying to preserve you, I'm trying to preserve you and sustain you.

Speaker 2

This is what I said. You said to go fuck myself. And he's like no. I said I love you. I thought that's what I said. He's like no, I said I love you Like. I thought that's what I said, he's like no, you said to fuck myself.

Speaker 1

You said we all look like a bunch of monkeys humping a football?

Speaker 2

Yeah, exactly what.

Speaker 1

No, I said I want the best for you. Yeah, that's like so that's where, like the breakdown there is, think both you need to prepare yourself when going to get this kind of training whether it's cqb or just like you know, other kind of military instruction or law enforcement instruction like this um.

Speaker 1

But I will say I'm curious to see your opinion on this from being the you know up for side. So much um. So I use the flux raider. I went flux raider and uh, I have a very, very discreet, low profile uh pistol mag um chest rig, essentially that it can fit about like five 30 round pistol mags pretty easily and it's got also room for like tourniquets and chem lights or whatever um. And then I have my backpack which would have the soft armor level three plus in it. Um, and that was pretty much my profile. And with the flux raider dude I never had to swap sides to clear corners. Really I could just kind of adjust with the way my head was positioned on it. I could just angle my uh flux to go left eye or right eye depending on which side I was peeking right and the flux raider, such a small, compact um position was like there was a couple times where I actually didn't deploy the brace you could pull it off your shoulder or not have it deployed.

Speaker 1

Push around that well I would have it on the single point sling and just up to go around left or up to go around right corners, and I saw a lot of guys with like really bad handling skills for their ARs. Like everyone else was pretty much running ars I think I was the only person not running ar besides me. Oh yeah, you were running cock gun. Yeah, and people loved it. People loved pat had a cock gun with a red dot and a flashlight on it. It was awesome. People thought it was the sickest thing in the world. I was proud of it. Yeah, you, I could tell you were humble about it there in the moment, but I could tell you're like you were loving how much people appreciated it.

Speaker 2

I did.

Speaker 1

I appreciate the attention um, but uh, it was, I knew it was a good idea. That made you tell me you're gonna do it. I'm like that's sick.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's sick as hell um, yeah, but everybody else was running like uh, basically 16 inch ars, and if it wasn't, it was 16 inch because they had a suppressor on it, you know, yeah, or they have, like nobody had anything short ars, but their pistol ars were, like, not that crazy short they were still, I think the smallest one I saw was like a 12.5, yeah, um, all that said, though, there was a lot of guys.

Speaker 1

I saw one handing their AR while moving and like holding their AR by the grip up in the air while going up the stairs and putting their hand out to rails. I saw a lot of guys. I mean it was unreal. How many dudes got freaking flagged? Oh yeah, like just people not aware they're, they're tunnel vision in looking at their sites and they just are like pointing their barrel at the back of another homie, which, again, this is a safe environment to be doing that. It's a training environment. Bolts are removed, magazines are empty and unloaded. Even if a round somehow found its way in the chamber, it can't go bang. If you don't understand how it can go bang from the terms we're using, just watch a video of how an AR works.

Speaker 2

We made it safe and for the purpose that we knew this was going to happen.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we knew there was going to be a lot of flagging, and we knew there was going to be guys role playing out before who were going to be getting guns pointed at their faces because they were going to be the bad guys. All that said, still it was one of those things where there's a. It's not like it happens Like I caught myself two times. I'm sure it happened more than two times, but there's two times where I caught myself flagging someone. Both those times, though, was because they cross into my field of fire, and, from my perspective, I'm like, bro, can't you see my flashlight? And like me pointing my gun this direction? But you just get tunneled in, man, and you forget. And, of course, you can't see someone else's flashlight, because it's not like a lightsaber, right, it's an invisible beam of light until it's on the wall, and so there was just a lot of things like that where I noticed I was like having to maneuver my firearm to avoid flagging someone, having to maneuver my firearm to avoid flagging someone. There's other times, man, where I just saw so many guys just straight up like I mean, just bad rifle skills, not the number one most lethal one, I would say, but the number one, most common, the number one lethal one is you're just stacking up with your gun pointed at the back of your homie or you're going through the thresholds with your gun pointed at a homie and you're just unaware of it.

Speaker 1

The most often when I saw was people taking their dominant hand off of their weapon platform, whether that's the right or left hand, in order to signal or tap or instruct, rather than taking their support hand off of, so they're calling or signaling to the person behind them hey, let's move, hey, let's hand off of. So they're calling or signaling to the person behind him hey, let's move, hey, let's go do this, and they're taking their hand off their. They're taking their dominant hand rather than their support hand off their firearm to do that instruction. And it's like bro, what are you gonna do if you're taking your strong hand, your dominant hand, off your firearm and signaling to the person and then rounds start ripping through that door? You ain't got your hand on the trigger? Yeah, you know, um, but I'm curious to hear your perspective because there's so much I saw from the side of like dude. Homie in front of me just killed our like homie in front of me just killed first man.

Speaker 1

First man just got domed to the back of the head like and then there was things I saw from filming because I was getting a lot of good footage of the event to edit a video and I saw a lot of guys just coming in with like bad maneuverability on their rifles and personally I'm just like I'm a civilian. All these dudes are civilians. None of these dudes are cops. None of these dudes that came to the training are going to be cops. None of them. A couple of them are active duty, but not in like this kind of, you know, field of work, active duty. And so with that, I honestly don't think any of these guys really should be training. Not that they shouldn't.

Speaker 1

I don't think it's the most valuable training to be training on an AR platform like this for CQB, because that's the likelihood they will be doing CQB with their rifle is so infinitesimally small. I think it'd be more advantageous if we did it with, like pistols or flex systems or whatever like their most realistic thing is. And there's one dude I know who brought the AR that he legit carries in a bag in his car and he's like, yeah, if I'm doing cqb it's with this thing, because it's in the car and it's ready to go there and I'm grabbing it. So that way I'm not just have to run it with my pistol, right? But you know, it is just one of those things where I saw I'm like dude, you're not in no world are you running cqb with your AR, unless it's your house.

Speaker 2

Right, yeah, and, and even still probably not Right, and. So, yeah, yeah, and the um, the yeah. I saw all those things that you were just talking about and I think that to to your point about the, the weapon system used in the moment, uh, to your point about the, the weapon system used in the moment, uh, I do think that the most advantageous training would be around pistols or, heck, even pump shotguns.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing.

Speaker 2

I was like being like whatever, what is yours. And and all these guys might be like saying bullshit I keep it next to my bed. I'm like, okay, that's fine, don't um, but um, you know, um, but like the um, because, at the end of the day too, because we had these, the gel blasters, we had these little pistols, and I think by the end of the day, some of the guys were pretty keen on them because, I knew a lot of guys were like where do I get those?

Speaker 2

yeah, b and because, um, yes, it's not. You're not going to get actual marksmanship training with these, but movement drills and the CQB ranges is pretty hard to miss.

Speaker 1

It's a lot faster than a Nerf dart, a lot more accurate than a Nerf dart.

Speaker 2

Yeah, exactly, and so the ability to movement, movement with a team, the safety aspect, which is nice too, like, yes, did we pulled bolts and pulled everything, but a hundred percent, no one's dying from a gel blaster? Yeah, no matter what happens. Right, like that sort of thing. And then practicality being like um, if we're talking to about some of the stuff through the day, would be um, shrink teams to two to three man teams.

Speaker 2

Really, really, you should run single to three man teams and then most likely scenarios with pistols through a building and then, because most those guys are, uh, concealed, carrying handguns, right and and that's what you're going to have in the moment of this sort of thing. And so, yeah, I think that most applicable training is to run pistols, run a mantis system, run a gel blaster, whatever.

Speaker 1

I was like mantis system is sick. A good amount of guys had mantis system. Oh yeah, it was awesome. I'm going to save up for one now I was about to say.

Speaker 2

After I saw that too, I thought like, as the trainings continue forward, that should almost be mandatory potentially a potentially mandatory item. It's just 300 bucks it's a lot.

Speaker 1

There's a lot of a lot of boys who ain't got yeah, so it is a lot of money.

Speaker 2

So mandatory might be a sharp word, but I'd be like, if you want to keep training seriously this way, um, it puts your weapon in safe and then also like the laser that comes out of it, it's, it's super awesome, it's super accurate yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

So great feedback on how accurate you are, what's happening and so um but yeah, I think it was one of those things too where, like, we're talking about a higher level course here soon.

Speaker 2

Right.

Speaker 1

Of taking people who passed quote unquote, passed this one right and would be interested in more Yep. And then I think it makes sense at like a higher level right. Like hey, if you want to do your 200, 300.

Speaker 2

If this is something you're going to do, if this is something you want to train and do and keep doing, yeah, it's a good tool and so, yeah, I think that most applicable, use a pistol, um, and then also, and yeah, uh, out out more like if you're doing outdoor stuff, field stuff, like run the ars, and then, like we said at the beginning of this, which was there is a piece of this doing it, just because it's freaking feels cool feels cool.

Speaker 1

So, yeah, sick to have your ar and be clearing it.

Speaker 2

So run, run. The ar be proficient with that as well. But I think two-man pistol teams are the ultimate uh training in that situation for really getting uh, getting uh what might actually could potentially happen and what you're going to need to do then, moving to our I was thinking about this same thing for our church security. I'm like we're going to come run this here at at the, at the shop. We're going to come run two-man pistol drills?

Speaker 1

yep, because excellent that's going to be a really good training, really fun time and pretty applicable, and so I think that um, I was gonna say too what do you think the odds are that we could get into the church to run some cqb?

Speaker 2

because I think it'd be we meaning the group that trained here or our security team, our security team, our security team yes, we could do that, because I think that's the most.

Speaker 1

hold on. If you guys hear that that's my dog to connie, just excitedly humping her not humping, slapping her tail against the table. So pat will give her some pats, um, but yeah, um, I think it's one of those things where that, if I I mean honestly, it's a toss-up, right, am I more likely to do cqb in my house out in the country, or am I more likely to do CQB in my house out in the country, or am I more likely to do CQB at the church which is in the downtown area of a community who's not very church friendly, right, like it's no secret that, like our town doesn't view churches very positively, right. And so I think, like it's almost more likely, that I'm going to be running cqb style, uh clearing, from a position where I'm already inside the building and I need to now make sure the building is secured and safe as I'm evacuating people, which I think would be pretty fun, um, and I think it would be pretty advantageous for our team to do so.

Speaker 1

No, for sure, and that's going to be with pistols too. Like we don't we don't have a locker of ARs and shotguns at the church.

Speaker 2

Exactly, and I think, going back into the weapon handling of the dudes, it's like yeah, I guess you didn't.

Speaker 1

I was just curious. Yeah, you saw me running. How bad was it with the, with the flux, like, did you see a lot of stuff where I was choking up hard on that flux?

Speaker 2

going around the quarters. I think that's the nice thing of the. The advantage of the flux is it's so short. No, you probably weren't getting choked up. What I didn't notice or see was if, like you said, you were able to switch sides as you came around stuff. I didn't see how effective that was or wasn't.

Speaker 2

Where, like we were talking earlier with the video of the guy where, like where you might think that you're clear, it still might be your head going through first instead of your gun and so, um, but for for all these guys, you have to sit with your gun for a long time and switch it back and forth onto each shoulder. Practice pulling your weapon in to walk through a door. Practice with your offhand and just practice manipulating your weapon more and more and more and more and more, until it's literally so natural that it's a part of you. If you want to do this thing and you know, don't work on the John Wick-y type things of your speed reloads or flicking a mag out with your you know, like, instead of pulling a mag, like flicking it out and throwing it back in or whatever, like so many different things, you could be like that feel cool, like the coolest thing to do and what I was running for a while was and this goes into also how to put your weapon away on you was AR with a sling practice pushing your hand, basically putting it in all positions, having it up in your strong position, having your sling where you can manipulate your weapon to your offhand shoulder, being able to low port your weapon in front of you, push a hand through and high port your weapon at your back. You know so that you can. It's especially if you're running slings. Get comfortable with all of the pieces of it too, because you get tangled up in a sling real fast.

Mindset Over Marksmanship

Speaker 2

And and also, just, yeah, work on being able to make that an appendage of yourself so you can push it to one shoulder, push it to your saw, to your, to your weak side, push to your strong side, um, while keeping your dominant hand on and all that stuff and like, and then that's just going to make everything else so much smoother where you're not overthinking or having to think about all those things. But then there does need to be some more. Do the mental work around, not just thinking about, don't just be target focused, target fixated. Don't um, don't be focused on what you think is the call of duty way to do this thing be focused on, like what's safe for your team, knowing everything around you, that everything that's on you is squared away, and where's the need, yeah, and pushing through that there and obviously, like I said at the beginning, I'd love to see a video of myself because I don't know what I was doing.

Speaker 2

It's easier said than done, but to get the reps in on that thing. And so if you want to be a cqb-er and do you know, run the drills and all that stuff, like then you got to do it and work on it, do repetitions and, um, the the biggest thing we talked about the beginning was the threshold stuff. Like make sure, uh, you just you can't get your, let your eyes be. Um, your barrel has to be where your eyes are, like you can't be peeking around corners without your weapon ready, and that sort of stuff. So, yeah, I think that just sitting there on your couch, standing in a mirror, whatever, and moving and manipulating, holding a weapon, is going to be the best thing. To always be aware of what you're doing and how it's happening, uh. So then, once you do it for for real or in training, it just comes, comes naturally yeah, and I I would say too, you know it, practice the cool guy stuff.

Speaker 1

You know, um, to an extent, right, right, like I do think, yeah, no one had to practice a single reload the whole time we were here, right, because we were running with safety systems, so there was no really any way of getting an empty mag. But it is one of those things where I think, like, if you're practicing your reloads for competition, practicing your reloads for, like, field movements or whatever, right, and firing drills, I do think those will be useful to you in a cqb environment if you have to do them. But the truth is like, hopefully, the cqb environment, one, there doesn't have to be a single shot fired. Two, if you're doing it, you don't have a lot of sustained fire, because if you're in a sustained firefight cqb it's a bad day and like people left up, yeah, um, but no, yeah, I agree with you like, for the most part is like if you and I would say even I would even double down as like if you find yourself like what pat just said, like give up the cool guy shit to practice cqb shit. Like look, if you want to do john wick, do some uspca competitions, like those are set up with, you know, fake walls and barricades, and the cardboard targets aren't shooting back and you get to shoot, sometimes 8 to 20 targets depending on the course of fire. That's a lot of sick stuff. You're moving fast, you're going around you're, you're doing fast reloads and you can even do three gun, where you're firing and transitioning from three different weapon platforms to engage various targets and you really feel like John Wick. That ain't real man, you realize. You know plywood and sheet rock isn't stopping nine millimeter, let alone five, five, six or 300 black at our buckshot, you know. And so it's one of those things of like. You be clearing corners like john wick. You're going to be catching rounds through walls and you're going to be very upset when you come around one corner and you don't see the dude wedge between the fridge and the wall with a 12-gauge pointing at your noggin. And so there's a methodical science to it. Listen to the dudes who do the science and listen to them when they say you're dead and learn from it and have an open mind. You can have a really fun time and really grow your skills. But I think that's ultimately my last thing. Until I get more training. I'm just going to continue to practice and rehearse.

Speaker 1

I've been doing a lot of reps this week though oh nice. And on Sunday I went with a really good pistol competitive shooter we're training for the Modern Samurai Project's Black Belt. Oh nice, shooter we're training for, uh, the modern samurai projects black belt. Oh nice. The modern modern samurai project is this course training course that goes around the country and they tour, and if you go to their course, which is like 500 to 700 bucks, it's usually like anywhere from like two to three days, uh, and it's a lot of like really high level pistol skills and fundamentals. You get to also test for the belts while you're there at the course. And let me read, let me read the black belt qualifications to you.

Speaker 1

This dude I went with, he's a phenomenal guy. I'm not going to name him because I don't know how he feels about being named on, you know, a podcast of stuff, but he has easily the best attitude of anyone I've ever trained with and anyone I've ever received training from Just super encouraging and optimistic and super enthusiastic about, like you know, having somebody else to train with or practice with, and he made me drag my ass out in like degree weather with snow out into the hills to do pistol fire. So I know he's very serious and he now knows I'm very serious. So, uh, black belt standards, four drills. Okay, first drill three and two drill three yards. Three shots to the alpha zone, the A zone, then transition to two rounds on the head box. Three by five card, two, second par time from a concealed draw. So that's drawing from concealed one, two, three A zone. One, two head at three yards.

Speaker 2

That's fast.

Speaker 1

One shot at seven yards into A zone, par is one second. From concealment, bill drill seven yards, six shots A zone, two seconds. And then the last drill is one shot, 25 yards. One shot to the A zone, par is one and a half seconds. Wow.

Speaker 1

So we're training hard and I'm training with the expectations of going for black and I will be content if I get any of them, because even blue belt is your first drill, the 3-2 at two seconds. The blue belt, which is the lowest belt, is a three-second par. So most of these you don't even get like a whole another second added on. So blue belt is still crazy hard and significant to get. And the dude I'm training with he's like three-quarter black belt. He pulled two shots when he was doing his black belt for the bill drill because he was going so fast, but I shot with him. He's a real deal. He's pretty squared away. And, uh, I've been practicing. I hung up a target in my basement. I'm using my range finder to make sure I'm at the proper range for testing the various drills and uh, I've been doing my draws. I'm getting a lot faster. Dry fire mag it helps a ton, um. But yeah, dude, it's, I'm pretty stoked. I had a very shooting full weekend. Yeah, a lot of very big gun weekend yeah it was really fun.

Speaker 1

But well, I don't know, pat I I think we kind of covered everything. But you know you got any final words here for people who want to get into these skills? You got any final words for the dudes who might be listening that were there that day, you know, because a good amount of them enjoy the podcast.

Final Thoughts on Training Value

Speaker 2

No for sure I appreciate the instructors who came out and their expertise and that was definitely generous and awesome for those guys to you know, come spend their time with us. And, yeah, for all the other guys who came, I think that it was a good group of guys, super fun to, you know, even just camaraderie, fellowship, hanging out, doing something fun doing guy stuff is super awesome. And, um, I think that, uh, what I saw was I saw a lot of guys with kind of all different, uh, different backgrounds, different walks of life, different skills and, uh, you know, just wanting to um improve, uh on their skills and the. It was a good time, you know, I'd say, like, if there was anything to like be, like, just say to encourage, you know it'd be like take, if you want to do training, you know, take it, um, take it seriously.

Speaker 2

Not that guys didn't take it. You can always take something more seriously. Push yourself to learn more, work on stuff on your own off time. Let the guys who know what they're talking about say what they, you know. Let the guys who know what they're talking about teach and let yourself be critiqued, because that's going to ultimately be for your betterment, because you're where. None of us are perfect yet, or even great yet, and so being critiqued in a training environment is the point, and so allow that to not make you think that you're not good enough or that you don't want to come back, but that you just have more to strive for, and that that's the whole point of being there that you just have more to strive for, and that that's the whole point of being there.

Speaker 1

Yeah, any, I think my feedback, for the instructors too, was that you know, the instruction was great. Be confident with your instruction, that you have something to teach. I think there was a couple of times where I felt like someone might've not said something had I not asked, and I want those guys to grab me by you know my harness, my chest rig, like look, dude, I got something to tell you and I want it like. I want to be instructed and molded you know what I mean and um.

Speaker 1

So for those of you instructors know that you have things to say that are valid and educational at the same time.

Speaker 1

The flip of that, which is kind of like a paradox, is that be aware of the too many chiefs in the teepee issue. And there were several times where I think there was a breakdown that was 15 minutes too long, because there is too many instructors trying to share their piece of the pie when they're kind of repeating what someone else said. Right, and it was one of those things of like be aware of that, that syndrome, because if there's too many chiefs in the teepee, given too much instruction, they start to overlap on one another or maybe contradict, yeah, and they also start to. You just start to like have to tune one out to listen to the advice of another one. You pretty much are just like gonna make a decision, like all right, I don't like the way that guy talks, I'm gonna listen to this guy, and that's an unfortunate thing. But I would say honestly like sometimes it's best to wait to speak and listen, because someone might have already said what you want to say.

Speaker 2

Yeah, definitely, and the other piece being, too, might have something great to say, but people can only take on so much information at one time to then implement that into the training.

Speaker 2

So if it's uh, you know, especially in a really in any situation, especially a beginner situation, where it's like if you're got to work at one thing at a time, versus having an additional 10, 15, 20 things in that moment, to now think of the next time you do it, you know, so that'd be like, you know, even if it's good stuff and it was all good stuff, it's information. You can't have information overload where it's like, okay, now I I was just barely holding my crap together, now I got to think about all these other things that are now going to be you know, really not conducive to a good good, good training and good retention, that'd be,

Speaker 1

the big thing, retention on those things yeah, be gentle with the babies while you teach them. Alrighty, I think that's it, pat.

Speaker 2

Classic sign off, just till next time, till next time.

Head Shot

Mick

Co-host
Head Shot

Pat

Co-host