The Mick & Pat Show

Navigating Faith, Vengeance, and Media Manipulation

• Mick and Pat • Season 3 • Episode 23

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The assassination of Charlie Kirk has forced many to confront uncomfortable questions about violence, justice, and faith in America today. This raw, unfiltered conversation explores the profound emotional impact such events have on us as individuals and as a society.

When political violence strikes, the natural human impulse toward vengeance collides with deeper spiritual teachings about forgiveness and love. We navigate this tension through personal stories of processing grief, anger, and fear in the aftermath of witnessing someone's death. One host shares how this may have been "the worst day of my life so far," revealing the isolation felt even when surrounded by loved ones who couldn't fully understand the depth of his disturbance.

The discussion examines the biblical framework for understanding justice and punishment, particularly for Christians who must reconcile Christ's teachings about loving enemies with the reality of evil in the world. Can capital punishment be just while still rejecting the celebration of anyone's death? How do we maintain our humanity when confronted with inhumanity?

We also analyze the media landscape surrounding such events, from Jimmy Kimmel's show going on hiatus after controversial comments to sophisticated propaganda designed to manipulate emotions and sow division. Learning to filter information has never been more crucial as false narratives spread faster than truth.

Throughout these difficult topics, we find glimmers of hope. One host shares how the tragedy led him to appreciate his wife more deeply, spending extra time each night holding her with gratitude that "Charlie doesn't get to do that." This reminder to cherish what matters most offers a path forward through troubled times.

Join us for this thought-provoking conversation about finding our way through darkness without becoming what we despise.

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Speaker 1

I've wondered for years how far Jimmy Kimmel would have to go to get uh actually like hiatus you know like to get like, hey, we're gonna have a guest uh host for a while and, uh, looks like he finally went too far and now, uh, his shows uh in hiatus indefinitely, which makes sense because, honestly, like he was, he's such a two-faced fraudster and I have no idea how jimmy kimmel somehow like greased all the right palms to land up in political correct land as like the you know he was. He was always like now as a late night host, seen as like this moral bastion of integrity to like call out others, people's stuff. I'm like dude. This is the same guy that I used to see on spike tv on the man show that always opened and closed every episode with large-breasted women jumping on trampolines, yeah, and it was like the most vulgar like show on. It was the most vulgar like regular show on Spike.

Speaker 2

TV. Oh yeah, and you know, his show started the Jimmy Kimmel Live 2003. No way, I didn't know that it's been too long. It's been too long since that.

Speaker 1

That's crazy. I legit thought it started like when I was in high school after like spike tv kind of started going down the drain yeah, the um.

Speaker 2

So 23 years, good run, good riddance and uh that's crazy I just I've this whole time. I've really never found him funny over. He's never been funny, the funny he's had funny guests the matt damon feud funny to me. That's funny, ongoing. I love an ongoing bit. For years and decades it falls around. That's funny, you know. And like he did a couple fun viral videos. Remember that video of the of the white girl, skinny white girl twerking and then the whole room catches on fire no it went viral for like a few months and then they showed the full clip.

Speaker 2

And the full clip is jimmy kimmel comes out and puts it out with a fire extinguisher. So they were just seeing if they could go viral. Oh really they just. It was like there's, let's see if we can make something go viral, just like post it on a random channel, and it did whatever. It's something that whatever. But for the I'd say that there's two things. That's two things I enjoyed of 23 years of the Kimmel Live and it's like I just don't think he was that creative or that funny. And then, definitely for the last eight years, it's been one person, one person alone, who has kept his show going Trump, donald Trump, because I mean Jimmy Kimmel just is infatuated with the guy. I mean he's never going to comeated with the guy.

Speaker 1

I mean he's never gonna come up with. He was always the worst, which is saying a lot because, like there's Jon Stewart, which has always been. Jon Stewart to me has also never really been that funny, but he's a decent interviewer and but Jon Stewart's also been like insanely, I don't know. I feel like it was a lot more obvious with Jon Stewart that like this is paid for by the government. Especially, did you ever see the COVID dance that Jon Stewart had?

Speaker 2

No, I don't know if I did.

Speaker 1

It was literally the get your vaccination, covid dance and he had people coming out dressed as vaccines. And I was like this is the most fucking bear-level slop propaganda. And then in my head I was like there's somewhere out there people like clapping along to this in their home and that's crazy.

Speaker 1

Anyways. All I said, uh, I always thought he was like probably one of the worst late night show hosts, so I'm shocked that it lasts as long as it is, but it seems like he finally went too far and they're like dude, you just don't got the ratings to back up the vitriol that you're saying and the uh blowback we're getting from you know, your your take on the charlie kirk assassination, so you're done out of here, which nothing was lost. Um, and I will say too, one one late night show host that I respect a lot more. I never really respected a lot of them much, but one that I've always had a decent amount of respect for is actually Jimmy Fallon.

Speaker 1

I know a lot of people can't stand him because they think he's got a fake laugh and I know he's really struggled with alcohol. Some people say he's as mean as Ellen, which is hard for me to believe. Wow, but I really liked it because he's always had jokes that pick at both sides. He's kind of Conan, where everyone's free game.

Speaker 2

Yep.

Speaker 1

And also dude his back and forth with John Krasinski, where they pranked each other off and on for years. That was one of my favorites to watch.

Speaker 2

I enjoyed it. And Fallon's creative, he's entertaining, he's fun, he is actually talented, he is and he's super talented, like he's a very talented.

Speaker 1

One of my favorite things I remember as a kid seeing was the opening where the opening to that late night episode was him singing Old man with Neil Young. Oh yeah, and that was the opening to the.

Speaker 2

That late night episode was him singing old man with uh neil young oh yeah, and that was awesome. But it goes like oh, that wasn't. This isn't just like he wasn't dubbing, right? Yeah, this is him really doing this and it's not funny, it's just cool, like you know. Like you know, it was like uh um, all those other shows, even like honestly, like he was great on this and like letterman and leno too.

Speaker 2

Like, eventually I lumped l Leno into a little bit of even the Kimmel stuff as far as, like, he had some stand-up bits. Yeah, they were funny. I think Letterman was a decent interviewer, but the creativity that comes out of and the talent from Jimmy Fallon I think is fun and it's been fun for a long time.

Speaker 1

Jimmy Fallon also did a decent amount of skits on his show too, though Like that's a lot of things I think people forget about. But I'm pretty sure he it was like SNL sometimes where like every night or I don't know once a week or something, he had kind of like a skit. And I remember the one with him and it was Ryan Gos goslin and justin timberlake and um, who's the dude who just shot that armor on set? Alec baldwin alec baldwin.

Speaker 1

It was the classic thing where they have to say like tongue twisters with coffee and food in their mouth and he did it several times with the, you know the each of those guests and stuff, and and it was just really funny and well done. I don't know. To me that was late on TV. The best one of all time, though, without a doubt, was freaking Craig. To me, dude, oh yeah. Craig the Scottman, yeah, what was his last name?

Speaker 2

Craig Robinson? I don't know, it was Craig Ferguson, ferguson Dude. Craig Ferguson, he still Ferguson, ferguson Dude.

Speaker 1

Craig Ferguson and he's still like, does stand-up nowadays, but I still I would stay up late just to watch his because it was so funny and he had his robot skeleton co-host named Jeff and they would just banter back and forth until you know they were crying on the floor, laughing. It was unhinged, you know, because they knew like no one's still awake right now watching this, so we can say whatever we want, and it was very entertaining Anyways.

Speaker 2

And here's what Kimmel said. He said the MAGA gang he said this on his show MAGA gang, desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it. The late night host also criticized flags being flown at half mast in honor of charlie kirk and mocked the president's reaction to the shooting. Um, he said uh, this is not how an adult grieves the murder of someone he calls a friend. This is how a four-year-old mourns a goldfish, said jimmy kimmel, as, uh, he often mocks trump in his monologues, so he just couldn't help himself.

Speaker 1

And uh well that's honestly such a crazy take, dude. Like because it's not like trump did it, because charlie kirk was just a celebrity, like he did it because, like charlie kirk was like a friend of his that like helped him pick out his cabinet like you could. You could honestly say that there's a good share of the reason the country is what it is today is because Charlie Kirk had a voice in Trump's ear and that's crazy. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2

Yeah, and the Someone at ABC had to have been just hoping and waiting for a good excuse to can him to like, if his show was crushing, they wouldn't have done it, they wouldn't, they'd cover it, they'd and they'd see. They, he it's. You know. They always say indefinitely, we'll see if it's all canceled or not.

Speaker 1

You know but that's also why, um the John? I think Oliver's still on, but Jon Stewart is no more. They ended his show because of budget and it just wasn't making any money. I think the Seth one is over too. What's his name? Seth Meyers I think Seth Meyers is done as well.

Speaker 2

Really, I can't remember. I thought he was still going. He might still be going. I could totally be misspeaking.

Speaker 1

It's not like anyone watches it All the things are so ridiculous, you know.

Speaker 2

Did you see, uh, bill maher's clip of like the day after, whatever he was talking with the singer from smashing pumpkins? What's? Is it maher or mayor, mayor, I, I don't know? No, but um, but he was like he was pretty upset. He was just like he was like pouring he's just like pouring this giant glass of whiskey and talking to is it Billy Curringham, the lead guy from Smashing Pumpkins?

Speaker 1

let me just look real time with Bill Muir, charlie Kirk he has Ben Shapiro on talking about it four days ago. I don't know, is the Smashing Pumpkins guy a white dude?

Speaker 2

Yeah, white Kind of looks like he's not really a rock star, but he is. I can't remember his name? Did he have nice things to say? Billy Corgan is the guy, but Bill Marges, he's pouring this big old glass of whiskey and he's like I'm going to drink more today than just sat in that.

Speaker 2

Who sat in that chair like we were sitting and was just like shot and oh, I see here, yeah, and he's like, he's like, and then he goes and then, in bill fashion, he's like and for any of you out there, like celebrating this, just like f you like I can't, I can't deal with this bill more.

Speaker 1

Billy bill maher said that or billy corgan bill maher said that.

Speaker 2

What was corgan's reaction? He was just sitting there like yeah, that's messed up you know which I feel like one thing I've noticed this week I don't know if you've seen it which would be the men who I want to be like. Watching their reactions to this fucked up dude is well, not no, in a good, the guys who I like the like this is showing who the real men are.

Speaker 1

I mean sure, yeah, I get. Well. I was saying like the men you want to be like, which, in my mind, makes me immediately think of Jocko and. I saw Jocko's reaction and Jocko was pretty fucked up.

Speaker 2

Jocko was messed up. Yeah, you're messed up. Yes, yes, like jaco, yes was torn up.

Speaker 1

Dude, I'll tell you what theo theo was messed up.

Speaker 2

He was messed up. The um the guy. Uh, it's one of the cowboys from yellowstone, the old man he's.

Speaker 2

He's like he's a real cowboy and he's just oh, yeah, yeah and he's like he's just like driving in his truck and he's like this isn't the real america, like all the real americans know who his truck and he's like this isn't the real America. All the real Americans know who you are. Watching the awakening of righteous anger in people who I'd consider to be real men or men who I want to emulate, was encouraging to see, kind of a bit of a wake-up call or a surge or things. And it's not men calling for violence. It's not men, like you know, being um uh, ridiculous one way. That's just like men who are like solid in their belief of who they are, who they want to be, how they see the world, and like really who are calling for unity and peace. And the guys who are calling for this are guys who could, who you don't want to be getting violent with.

Speaker 1

Yeah, a lot of them are dudes who would be on the uh the war council yeah, there was like a civil war.

Speaker 2

You know what I mean?

Speaker 2

yeah, they get, they get contracted it's the guys you, you really don't want to get violent with who are saying that's not how we do this, and so seeing those guys come out and speak out and kind of, it's a bit of an awakening to, and like, younger men as well and stuff, and it's just like I've taken some encouragement from that too. Just to go like, when you see you, if you go down into the social portal, you're gonna be um, you're gonna think this world is all over with you know, and it's just not the case.

Speaker 2

when you do listen to some of these, like these sound men, you know, and it's like, oh yeah, there's a good reminder of those things. And to see like men who aren't very emotive being emotional about this was also like it affirmed my emotions that day, the way that we felt when we recorded our last podcast you know I haven't listened to it all the way through yet I'm back.

Speaker 1

But like did we even like speculate? I don't even remember us speculating about the shooter's identity, really that much other than just I remember it more like just us trying to process the facts and information we didn't get into a lot of the of the stuff we normally would do, of like I don't want to say like kind of like the this or that conspiracy or how did this happen?

Speaker 2

Or like we broke down some of the stuff about because he wasn't caught yet at that time we didn't know who it was. We had no idea who it was you know and we did talk a little bit about it if it could have been like a professional or not, and those sorts of things were already coming out that time. But we mostly just processed through what we were feeling. And what we were feeling was a sadness and also I'd call it, a righteous anger.

Speaker 1

I don't even know if I can say I was angry yet and I, I, that's true, I'd say.

Speaker 2

the next day I was trying to figure out what was going on, cause I was, I went to, I was, I went to. Uh, I played in our worship band the next night.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And like while we were playing through those, it's funny on an actual Sunday morning. For me, like, playing on a Sunday morning usually isn't very like worshipful. I was trying to like hit the right notes, yeah, but when we rehearse, for me that is worshipful to just be with them and like singing these songs and like we were singing songs and stuff and and those songs kind of hit harder when something like like this has happened.

Speaker 2

And so the I was working through all these, like this ball of emotions I had. And then afterwards we always do like the band checks in, like how are you doing? Like how's what's going on in your life and stuff, and um, I was like the last person to talk and I just was like I'm, like I'm, I'm mad, like I'm, like I'm, I want to. I want to wage a war, like in my man flesh, like, and in myself, like I want to. Um, I want to war against something, I want to war against evil and I want to take that out how was, how's, the reaction from the other band members?

The Awakening of Righteous Anger

Speaker 1

well it's not all of our band members are no, I would say very they're classic band members. They're not very masculine people, right all the time right, they weren't.

Speaker 2

And one thing I did say too I. I started off part of this by saying I did say too I. I started off part of this by saying I was like I listen, I watch a lot of videos of people dying and they were like kind of like they're josh, I'm like well, you know, listen, I'm like secure team stuff like things like this we like, like we engage with. But this video of watching this man die like really got to me a lot and it has a like awakened, uh, um, something in me that feels feels very frustrating, like as a person, I think lots of guys in our position feel like their agency and voice has been taken away. Um, because on some of these platforms you can't express your opinion or who you are, what you believe, without you know docs are cancelled, or um, or just for fear of you know docs are canceled, or um, or just for fear of you know, losing a friend because they, they won't engage with you.

Speaker 2

And um, I was like I want to fight evil and there is evil in this world and I know there's evil in this world and we saw evil in this world and I want to rid the world of this and in my flesh, the way to do that is to, and in my flesh the way to do that is through violence. And I was like, but my weapon tonight has been like, and it sounds like I don't know if this might sound like, I don't know what it sounds like, it might sound a little gay, might sound cringe, might sound cringe. But I was like my weapon is like that bass guitar over there, like that's been my object of war, that that I am waging against evil tonight and through the worship in my soul and in my body and playing out these things, because if you do believe, as a believer, that it's not a physical fight that we're in, you do have to engage it in some of those ways. And it was a healthy outlet to. It's a lot healthier than violence, exactly, and maybe more effective in some ways too, to like just release it through through other means.

Speaker 2

And so, anyways, that, um, that's what I was. I was, I was feeling this thing in myself of of anger, and and I was really I'm very angry about the way that you know, I've seen so many people react in such kind of disgusting ways to it and uh, it's uh disheartening and makes you lose faith in humanity. But then also throughout the rest of that week watching many other, not just men, it was women too, but for me, like watching other men react to this in a way that they were awakened and hate evil and they want to combat evil in this world, and seeing that standing up that way and watching videos of.

Speaker 1

did you watch the sam hyde video? This is you. I didn't fucked me up. Oh yeah, I know I'm saying the f word a lot, but it's because I've legit been. I will say this and I this is no exaggeration I do think that was the worst day of my life so far.

Speaker 1

Like I think about the shittiest day I had in law enforcement. I think about the shittiest day I had in high school. I think that was the most upset, alone and maybe even afraid I've ever felt in my life. And there's a lot of ways to go Like I felt alone because, not that I didn't have anyone to talk to about it, but like the disturbed, the level of disturbed I felt, and my wife was trying to like comfort me and she just didn't know what to say. That made me feel very alone. Yeah, because it made me feel like there was not a way I could help her understand what I well like what I was feeling, and that like words were failing me and like body language was failing and I felt like there's not anything I can do to let her know how I need help right now. And even processing with you made me feel like I could like go to sleep. When we talked about it, I felt like I was going to be able to go to sleep that night now, but I still felt very alone when we were talking about it. I felt like I was going to be able to go to sleep that night now, but I still felt very alone. When we were talking about it, I still felt like on an Island of like.

Speaker 1

Why do I feel so disturbed by this Cause? I think I said it, probably I don't know half a dozen times, but like I was not a religious follower of this guy, I wasn't a turning point USA college student by any stretch, right, but seeing that wickedness, seeing the evil and seeing it just raw, unfiltered, uncensored, and recognizing not just that, but then I think I think it was the recognition that, like, my country is gone because 56% of the like Democrat voting party registered Democrats believe that violence is acceptable. Um and again, for people who don't know the math, they did a survey of registered Democrat voters. 56% of them said that violence is an acceptable means to resolving, uh, our, our disagreements politically. Um and when asked like would it be acceptable to assassinate Trump or Elon Musk, they answered yes. So that's just like I had seen that and I thought that's just a poll, it's probably inaccurate, they're probably polling the most radical people in New Jersey.

Speaker 1

And then you see all the like, worship of the violence and glorification of it and rejoicing, and then you're like, oh my gosh, it might be real. It might be real. Lord, please, god, have mercy, help me, be real, lord, please, god, have mercy, um, help me. And uh, I think that's why I felt so alone that they couldn't process and explain it. And I think that loneliness and fear, fear of not like, oh my god, is someone gonna shoot me, but just fear of like, damn like we're at this big to turn off we're here right now and this can't be swept under the rug and, in fact, like is this just going to embolden everyone, like on every side?

Speaker 1

like embolden retaliation and embolden like, hey, it's okay to do this because, like, some people are doing it and they're getting celebrated, that's the thing, right, like when's the last time we saw someone, like on this kind of scale, celebrating a school shooter? No one celebrates school shooters. No one ever glorifies, like to this degree, the columbine shooting or something. Of course, there's like those fringe weirdo cult groups, like 10 of them, yeah, that are like I just love reading about this stuff right and I love I would like to be them one day and I have the same hoodie they wore.

Speaker 1

It's like that's always going to exist. The fringe less than 1% Right, but, dude, it was well over 1% celebrating on social media Charlie Kirk's death and rejoicing over it, posting memes about it, and, uh, I got to imagine there's a lot of people chemically who are like, oh my God, they might praise me one day, they might worship me if I just do the next one.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And I think that was the fear that I felt. Right, it was like this.

Speaker 2

This rejoicing is so dangerous for those who need that little bit of push and enthusiasm to go and do something Cause, yeah, it's being accepted, it's being tolerated, and for me, what I cause, I felt similar to, and one thing I was saying when I was talking to those those people that night, I was like, when I was saying that I was at this righteous anger to me, I also said I don't use the word like traumatized lightly, like I really actually I hate that word and I think, because I think it's been so watered down, I was like I think I'm the.

Speaker 2

It's like there's a traumatizing for me to watch this in some ways and I and what I'm struggling, what I was struggling with too that I told these people was I was like I am. If people of people who know me am pretty steady, I'm pretty like my emotions are in check. I'm, I'm typically unshaken by things and you know, and these are things that that not, these are things not even that I knew of myself. But what people have spoken to me that they see in me Right myself, but what people have spoken to me that they see in me right, yeah, and so to be like if I'm used to being something steadfast or something that's unshakable in many cases, and as somebody who's been told that others rely on for that to. I got shaken, and to be shaken was is a uncomfortable place for anybody, probably, but for me it just was like somewhat foreign to be like whoa, yeah, dude, again, like I can't think of any time.

Speaker 1

I've seen quite a few. I've seen a couple of people die and I've seen a few more people dead and none of them affect me that way, not one, mm-hmm. I don't even think I had a, a family member death that had shaken me as much as that had like that really unnerved me so much. And I will say this, I can say it with full truth and honesty man, there's not an ounce of anything in me that wants like retribution of vengeance. Like I don't even have like a super strong, like I don't have a very powerful emotion that like we should even execute his killer. I'm not saying that we shouldn't, right. I think that is like very well could be a fair and just punishment for, you know, whoever was associated in the assassination, and it might even be the one that is like most needed because of all the glorification to deter someone from doing something similar. But I saw some people on the, I saw some videos taken off of Instagram and Twitter and stuff posted on Reddit. Because I don't have any of those things, I just have Reddit, because I figure, if I'm going to do any social media, I should just keep my finger on the pulse of the worst. You know, and these videos posted of, like, some people who you know, they say they're conservatives and they got their MAGA hat on or number 47 hat, and there's this one big boy driving around his truck saying I'm sick of it, I'm sick of it and you know what, I'm ready Someone say where and we'll start going door to door finding them and we'll start like rounding them up and it's time, time. It's time we get them out. Like, if you're trans, you're out. If you're fucking gay, you're out. You know it was.

Speaker 1

It was just like one of those things and I was, I just was watching it and like it was like, look, they're just as extreme and I'm like, hey, dude, as a conservative, like report this guy, like someone, call the police, if you recognize who this is, let them know. This guy's planning on going door to door. Like I certainly don't want this fucking dude out there. If this is what he's thinking he's about to do when he gets home from work and if he's not doing it and he was just doing it for social media clout, let him tell the cops that.

Speaker 1

But, like, if you know where this is, if you have his instagram handle, report it to the police and like a lot of people like, well, that's so, it's so double standard, like I'm like find me a conservative person who thinks like this is cool, like this is an extremist and we like we're fine with reporting those people too. Um, no one's gonna be celebrating this dude if he goes and does that, and I think that's the thing where I'm at. You know what I mean? I'm like I have no desire for vengeance and, in fact, I'm kind of disgusted by, like the knee-jerk reaction of like we need to go and take it to them now.

Speaker 1

I'm like and maybe it's just because I know we talked about this last week, but no one fucking knows how bad war is dude no one has a remotely clear idea of how insanely awful war in the US would be. Yeah, even people who've been to war they wouldn't necessarily— Generations don't know what it's like to be at war in the US. You know what?

Speaker 2

I mean With ourselves. Yeah.

Speaker 1

They weren't really at war when they were deployed no offense. I know some of you are going to take offense to that, but you know what I'm talking about. You didn't get shot at. You didn't have to worry about hostages being used in front of you on a daily basis. You didn't. You know you weren't in Ukraine.

Speaker 2

Right, right, or like, or doing it in your home, either you know, like, where you next to your family and stuff, but, um, that's where we're. I was saying this before we started recording, but and I think to like the piece of. You know if there, if he's executed that like the, we'll see the measure of. Is it going to be? Is the favor going to be returned with disgusting um celebration of death again and from from the right on this?

Speaker 2

and I think, like for me, I would say yeah, I think he, if guilty, can and should be put to death um yeah, I agree, I agree, and that's a fitting punishment but celebrated the day he's gone no, yeah, I don't think we should be having parties, or I think it's a sad day. Yeah, I think it's a sad day, but it's a just day. Yeah, is what I would call that. It's sad, but it's just but, but it's not, it's not uh, but it's still.

Speaker 1

It's just still sad there's a lot of mockery, too, going on right now, because a lot of people have said that. A lot of people have said like, hey, we should like now, like now that they found of. People have said like, hey, we should like now, like now that they found him, and all that stuff, like we should be praying for him by name to come to know jesus and be saved, because that's what charlie would want.

Speaker 1

And then, there's a lot of mockery of they're like people. You know everything be like. Oh, because they found out he's a fucking white kid from a mormon family, they want to pray for his soul. If he was a black or brown kid from the streets with no dad, you'd bet they'd be saying like to hang him high. And I'm like no, like what? Like when was the last time? I don't know anyone who's saying like now. Granted, I'm not saying there's not racist in this country, right but, I don't know anyone who even for like what is it?

Speaker 1

Irina Vyankov?

Speaker 2

The model who was killed in the train.

Speaker 1

Ukrainian refugee. I don't know anyone who was like man groveling Like we need to hang that man.

Speaker 2

We need to hang him up.

Punishment, Justice, and Christianity

Speaker 1

I don't know anyone. I know people who were like we need to catch that guy and they caught him and they're like all right now he needs to be tried and found guilty and sentenced to death, like he needs to get executed, like what he did was cold-blooded, unprovoked murder and that would be justice for her. But I don't know anyone who's like man. All these fucking people are the same and we got to hang them up. No one's like that. And so when they're doing that straw man argument for you know Charlie Kirk's killer and saying like, oh, because he's white, we're calling to pray for him. Like no, it's because who he killed? Because who he killed is why there's the response. Because a lot of the people who followed Charlie are believers. And what's one of the most like universal truths of Christianity? That you're called to reap coals on your enemy's head by prayer and love.

Speaker 1

So it's no surprising to me that you're going to find some I'll put in air quotes extreme Christians whose first knee jerk reaction to this is going to be not, yeah, we should kill this dude and we should piss on his body. They're going to say we should love him and pray for them because that, will you know, ultimately perhaps lead them to christ and redemption. And then it's also like what charlie would would have wanted, and I, I think that's like. I think that's a totally fair thing to say. I also don't think it's wrong to say like, hey, like, justice is also something that's important in the same context, like we can, we can pray for someone in their salvation, while also not condoning what they did and accepting, like there's consequences for actions. Um, I don't know, I don't know what your thoughts are on that?

Speaker 2

No, I definitely agree, because we have something that gets discounted or overlooked or misunderstood about. The Christian faith is, or maybe even misunderstood by a lot of people who are trying to be Christians. I don't know. Is we believe in redemption and that none, nobody is too far gone for that? Yep, it's. It's like that is a, it's a, it's a, it's a tenant, it's a, it's a, it's.

Speaker 1

It's a thing that we stake our stake, our whole thing on honestly, I don't like it'd be easier if I had a list of people that was in scripture that was like, yeah, but like these ones there's no saving, so just you get you could do whatever you want. Like because it's, I fully believe it. I fully believe it with you. But it is easier if I like, if someone's like, yeah, they, uh, they're a child rapist and be like oh well, like you know, biblically speaking, god says that they'll never know jesus.

Speaker 1

so like I guess we could get rid of them, I don't't have to pray for them. You know what I mean? It's one of those things that, like you're, the truth is unfortunate in that, like well, the truth is unfortunate for me in my own sin is what I'm saying is that I have to actually truly see that person for who they're made, in the image of God, and do my best to show them Christ's love.

Speaker 2

And then the and the. The beautiful flip side to it is that is the hope we all cling to as broken, sinful people, right, and so it's like the and people point out the Bible, bible's full of, just like all your leaders are like murderers and rapists, and you know, and uh, thieves, you know the, the kind of the big dogs we like to put up there. You know that old king david and noah and saul and paul, and you know, uh, we have um, um solomon, and like abraham, whatever there's, there's, there's, there's, and that's just barely breaching the surface on names of guys in the Bible who are revered, who also did bad stuff, who also were sinners, who maybe did more bad stuff than the guy who killed Charlie Kirk, that's.

Speaker 1

I'll say it I don't like that. You said that. Right, I don't think it's wrong, right, I don't like that. You said that, right, I don't think it's wrong. Right, I don't like that. You said that, dude.

Speaker 2

It's like you know, I mean we, but we place our faith in the redemption of mankind and the story unfolding and as man, we are not ultimate judges for eternity Now here in our flesh. Yes, sometimes you've got to throw a rope over a tree, and I believe in that oh shit.

Speaker 1

And let's pick a different form of murder. Well, that one sounds too racially charged.

Speaker 2

Let me let me also. It's. Here's the deal.

Speaker 2

It has nothing to do with that 100, it's just I know that, I know people don't know that, but for me, like old westerns, like basically, is what is what I basically base my like entire um, like jake stealing horses? Exactly, get him hung up. It's unfortunate and and the the rope over the tree thing why I say it is I do believe in due process and I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. I also believe in people when sometimes they're guilty and it's time to do it here. Now it's done. And that's a whole other conversation on maybe where our legal system's gotten to, and in some ways rightfully so, because there are innocent people on death row in these horrible things if you take individualist cases from it, but speaking generally, there's in our flesh as we walk this world. There are man's laws and some of those laws, if broken, require that your life is now forfeit.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, were we recording when we talked about laws if broken, require that your life is now forfeit? Yeah, yeah, I, were we recording when we talked about flesh simulators, capital punishment episode, or we?

Speaker 2

just was that the shit I can't, was that in our last episode if it was, I didn't, I didn't like, I said I haven't finished the whole thing.

Speaker 1

But anyways, all that said, if you haven't listened to it or watch it, go watch it. Flesh simulator we were recording.

Speaker 2

Think we were recording because we were talking about, but but we could, we could the three, the three versions of punishment that he talked about.

Speaker 1

Well, yeah, and I mean, if I don't even think we need to go over again, people can watch it for themselves. But it really is where I'm like spending a lot of time and thought lately I'm just like man, you have to have punishment, and like I think I've always felt that way as a Christian, and especially even before Believer, I felt that way way more so. But I think now I'm really spending more of my day, every single day, wrestling with like there has to be consequences for actions and there always is consequences for actions. And sometimes you don't get caught and sometimes the consequences are not what you suffer but what someone else does. But for there to be a society and for that society to function, it is required there be consequences to actions and it is required that the whole entire populace is aware of that. And this is one of the reasons too.

Speaker 1

I was reading an essay, gosh. I wish I could remember it, but it was an essay on why a true Christian theocracy can't work because a truly Christian nation would have no punishment. There would be crime but no punishment. Um, and it would be, I think. I think it's very true. Like you I've, I find it very hard to justify punishment outside of like miraculous punishment if you go by the example set forth by the founders of the new church that, like the apostles, like find me the last time an apostle punished someone and in the new testament debatably.

Speaker 2

Ananias and sapphira wasn't, wasn't even an apostle, right? I know you said that's what that's miraculous Holy Spirit punishment.

Speaker 1

I think the most close example is truly just rebuke and excommunication for a time we just see that there's a couple times where people turn their back on their fellow brothers or sisters in Christ and then they're kind of name dropped in a letter of like hey, avoid this person. Like they they can't be trusted, but that's it. And then, like the rest of it is like god will deal with them fairly and justly. Um, and it's it's crazy too because, like, at the same time, you have the new testament's case of like non-punishment, like no consequences, because we have the letter to uh philemon that is to return to his master for having ran away and that his master also be merciful with them and not punish him. And so you could even argue that, like there is because of, um, the example set by the new testament, like church, that there is not actually a a true way that a, a christian nation today, could punish people justly. Um, if we're going by you know, new covenant and example set forth, uh, and that's exactly, I think, why the church can operate and succeed in like any other governing society. It's like because the church's objective is not to be a global name, like a global government, like the whole point of it is the soul, like the, the individual relationship and soul and reconciliation with god at an individual level, and then you move on to the next one and the next one and you have the unified faith of. Yet there's consequences for my sin and the consequences are Jesus' death on the cross, and that is the ultimate consequence, and I recognize the severity of that and that it should be me on that cross, and that is an act of love. And so, going forward, yes, use judicial prudence on who you associate with and don't just be recklessly foolish. In fact, if there's people trying to kill you, maybe act crazy or play dead it worked for a lot of the other apostles but there's never a time where we see the apostles take vengeance for their persecution, right, and there's never even a time where we see them take vengeance or retaliate in a way after Jesus leaves them, for anything that isn't considered persecution. And who knows, maybe there were cases of it and we just don't have the letters for it. Maybe they were like yeah, you know, let's be aware of our community here in Corinth, but if those guys are trying to rob you, not because you're a Christian, but they're just trying to rob you, yeah, you can kill them Self-defense dog, but that was never written in any of the letters. So we really don't like have anything that like says that.

Speaker 1

Um, now I am speaking partly out of one side of my my mouth, because I also fully believe like God. Romans 12,. God has appointed governments to exist over us for a time, for a reason Like. He knows what will come into fruition and he knows who will rule and what the governing authority is going to be. Um and so, therefore, you are a believer in a place in time that God knew was going to be, like where you were going to be, and so, therefore, operate in that place in time for the gospel. Uh, I don't really think there's going to be a Christian nation one day you know I mean.

Speaker 1

Well, you know, I do think there is in Revelations, right, but that's kind of the one, because if there's a Christian nation you don't really have a requirement to go out and about and move underneath the force of that government to try to spread the gospel. So anyways, that's kind of like a side tangent rant of capital punishment consequences and also how I personally reconcile that in my own faith while also accepting, like I'm a believer in a world that is not a Christian world, and so it makes sense that there are consequences to actions and I can accept the consequences to actions at the same time wanting to pray for the individual soul to be saved. And that's also I reconcile kind of the earlier topics that we were talking about, about, like it's very hard to pray for the pedophile. I don't like that, but I can do it.

Speaker 2

Maybe even called to. I haven't felt called to it yet. I know.

Speaker 1

Anyways, what is your thoughts on that? I was just kind of going off on a rant there, but I am interested on, like your interpretation or things. Sometimes I'm not aware if I'm talking on my butt.

Speaker 2

No, well, I think that for like evidence in the bible, of like especially new testament, of that is, um, exactly what you just said is something that actually I wrestle with it in myself too around especially, let's go like like with capital punishment, for instance, which is playing God, taking a man's life.

Speaker 1

Good old Romans. 13. Every one of us wants to be the agent. None of us really Rarely is a Christian, the agent of God to execute wrath right and it's um the.

Speaker 2

It is, I think, hard to reconcile, or maybe, in some cases, unreconcilable to support punishment of people and call yourself a christian. I don't know, it is something. It is something that I do work through because I think that it's people would say you're hypocritical, right, which is like well, I'm just still trying to figure out what exactly that looks like here and I think some of the. So there are some of the examples too there where you go okay, like for, like Ananias and Sapphira, that was doled out by God.

Speaker 2

That was some holy holy punishment right and it's like, um, scary at the and so is that is. Is, you know, justice? Only gods. Ultimately, yes, in the here and now world, I don't know what this looks like.

Speaker 2

Um, one of the most perplexing thing verses for me, um, and I might talk about on this podcast a while ago is christ on the way to the garden, sell your cloak? He's like, well, the, the sell your cloak is one, yeah, but then also he's you know, he, there's two things. One is when christ sends out the disciples. He says there's two things. One is when Christ sends out the disciples. He says to basically go out but take a sword with you, and you're like sell your cloak, buy a sword when you leave, okay, so Christ commanded them to arm themselves as they went out to spread the gospel. So that's one.

Speaker 2

Also, at the same time, for me in a very, very similar vein would be Jesus tells Peter to grab the swords. Peter grabs the swords on the way to the garden and, like it's been heating up politically, they know that they're looking for Jesus, they know that people want Jesus dead and they're going to go pray in the garden. It's Jesus's last night on earth before he rises again and he's told to Peter grab these swords. So Peter grabs the two swords, now fast forward to in the garden, peter's hanging out and some guards come to take Jesus away. So obviously and if I was Peter I think it would be very obvious why I was told to bring the sword it's time to use the sword, right, the armed guys are coming to take Jesus away, my leader. So he swings that sword Fortunately for the servant, he misses and just gets the ear. And then Jesus tells him to stop and he's like am I supposed to use this sword or not? Now, jesus, in that moment, did pick up the ear of the servant and heal it back onto him, right? So did Jesus tell him to bring the sword just to glorify God further in front of these guards?

Speaker 2

I don't know, but and it could be as simple as that, but it's, there's, there's the Christ has commanded his disciples and two different examples in scripture to take a sword with them. I'd assume at some point you're supposed to use it. He does not give any further instructions, point, you're supposed to use it. He does not give any further instructions on when or how to use it, even with the child pedophiles which you could go um, I guess the child pedophiles is redundant. Not that a child pedophile is just. Is that a kid pedophile? Sorry, but when it comes to pedophiles, I think that the verse most applicable for them is you know, jesus says if anybody harms these children, it's better that he tie a millstone around his neck, cast himself into the ocean. At which point, I think, does he say that he should tie a millstone around his own neck? Or does he say you should tie a millstone around his own neck? Or does he say you should tie a millstone?

Speaker 1

around his neck. No, it's hard. It depends on the translation because I've read several. I did a study on the verse it's like. Is this the only verse that condones suicide Right? Or is this a verse that condones capital punishment for someone who diddles children? And I've seen translations that are essentially always says it is better for him to have right a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea than to than to harm one of these, yeah, but then there's also translation.

Speaker 1

the first half is still the same, pretty much, or interpretation. I'll say the interpretation is still better for him to have a millstone tied to his neck and he cast himself into the sea Right, so there's both there. Either way, it doesn't really matter who ties the millstone.

Speaker 2

Right, but either way, it's either saying it's Jesus' way of speaking, like how he would say gouge your eye out, saying it would have been better for you if you had just killed yourself. Yeah, maybe because of uh, what's coming for you and get Hannah. I don't know.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Or two? Um, the guy's supposed to do it himself still. So you still don't get to use either way. You got to use a millstone and not a sword. So clearly we have no direction on when or how to use the sword now, except for in ephesians, the only sword we get to use that we're that we are. There's one sword we're allowed to use and it says use it. It's the sword of the spirit.

Speaker 2

Other than that I thought you're gonna pick a different ephesians verse, but yeah. But other than that, we don't have any go-no-go criteria for sword usage as Christians that I know of.

Speaker 1

Well, there's like the Old Testament.

Speaker 2

Right, which I was actually going to bring up, which would be I think there is one of the stark differences culturally between Christians and Israelis and Israeli Jews is kind of and the they get to use that old book, we only get to use the new book, and if you use it wrong, you just use the old book to justify what you do. When Christ called us to the new covenant, so like basing our laws out of you know Abrahamic, or was it covenants or laws, while they were set by God, they weren't set for us necessarily. They've been fulfilled in Christ and obviously we're getting into some stuff here that takes a couple semesters of classes to really break down how broad this can go. But all that to say, I don't know when I get to use the sword yeah, I mean, I've always, I've always erred on the uh versus.

Speaker 1

Essentially. There's the one in romans that's like agent of the government, what's that mean? Driver's license, make you an agent of the government, what? Like you know, like you get real finicky with it, right, um?

Speaker 1

And then there's also the verse in exodus about it's not a, it's not necessarily, I would say, a law, but it's a right. You could say it's a law I guess you would call, you'd probably say it's, it's wrapped up in the Abrahamic law. But the condition is there's a conditional time when it's like when you're justified in killing someone their blood's on your hands versus not. And I think that just as God was right and righteous, then he is now, and just as that law or that condition was seen fit and righteous in his eyes, then it is now too. I don't think it should be used for justification for Christians going out and killing anyone by any means, because that's, of course, not even remotely the condition of that Abrahamic law in the first place. Right, and that's not the condition we see in Romans right now. It's made very clear that when Christians are being persecuted, we are to essentially let that be the greatest testimony for Christ. So if you guys have any debate on this right, I would encourage all of you to read Jesus Freaks and read it in a place where you can sit down and cry, because it's an insanely massive account and I think they're like up to like five books now. But it's all just true stories of people who were martyred for the faith. That will move you and challenge you in like, your view of like.

Speaker 1

When is it right for a Christian to use violence to defend themselves or others?

Propaganda and Media Manipulation

Speaker 1

Versus when are we called for truly the purpose Christ put us on this earth, which is to testify about him and his love and God's love? Um, and I kind of pretty much have always erred on if someone is trying to kill me out of persecution of my faith, I'm called to be a martyr. I'm called to praise Christ as I'm murdered and to pray for my persecutors. If they are just trying to kill me because they want my shit or they're psycho, I'm going to kill them. So that's kind of that's where I've always rested in and I've prayed a lot about it. Spoken to some pastors, I even did like the call in a couple of times to a couple of different pastors on Grace FM, oh yeah, and asked them it just for their thoughts, and all of them pretty much had the exact same response to that and I've prayed about it and I've decided that's where I'm good, okay With resting on that and I'm like I've pretty much just operated under that going forward.

Speaker 2

No, I agree with that. You know general set of rules.

Speaker 1

Now, if someone comes to our church and plans to start shooting up our church? Like as being person, yeah, and plans to start shooting up our church as being personal. Yeah, they're like. I hate Christians. I'm going to shoot this church up.

Speaker 2

It doesn't fall under your persecution guidelines. It does.

Speaker 1

It does technically, but I'm still going to shoot them. I'm still going to make them take the body room temperature challenge, the room temperature challenge, and I'll sort it out with God afterwards. So it is a difficult dichotomy to navigate but at the end of the day, that's part of like being a Christian and resting in the Holy Spirit to guide you all. That said man. Being a Christian and resting in the Holy Spirit to guide you All that said man. We talked about a lot of that, a lot of these guys, this guy's videos Professor Jiang Jiang Jiaqing I don't know, it's so hard sometimes to not say it French when it's a Chinese name Professor Jiang J-I-A-N-G and then Zhuqin X-U-E-Q-I-N. So I've been seeing a lot of his YouTube videos and they're pretty inflammatory. They're like always talking about like collapse of a society, um, the end of the western world, uh, they're, and they're all like classroom stuff where he's got a whiteboard behind him and he looks like he's recording while answering questions. Does have any pupils in the room with. The pupils are always chinese accented speaking english in the room. Well, you never see them, um, but he always almost releases them right on time this like hour-long lecture, right before something relevant to the lecture occurs and, uh, you know what, like, paint me a conspiracy theorist. But maybe the chinese just have enough data collected and information that they can kind of predict when something's happening. And they got enough, uh, you know, spies out there informing them of what other nations are planning or doing. Um, so they can kind of be timely with these things. But he really tries to come off as that he is a professor that has these degrees. But when I look him up online, he's got a Bachelor of Arts in English Literature from Yale College. This isn't on Yale's website, this is on Moonshot Academy, which I think is his own teaching platform in china, because it's in chinese. Um, he has over 10 years of teaching in china and teaches western philosophy. Um, his location on youtube is listed as canada and of course, every single student he has is Chinese or at least has a Chinese accent, while they're like asking questions in English and it really does come off as like insanely well done CCP talent.

Speaker 1

And these videos are pretty, like I said, they're pretty crazy for the, for the algorithm, for the, uh, for the algorithm. Um, he, like some of his top videos are uh, the reason the us created isis and they created them to be human drones, like disposable and send the and like use isis as a tool of uh disrupting other parts of the middle east. Um, civilization of free fall, the death river strategy uh, these are all talks about like um, you know, predictions of what's going to happen in the next five to ten years. This other one is like uh, why israel wants to unite itself by breaking the world, and it's all pretty much like, based in like very modern, and by modern I mean like post industrial revolution philosophy of like the Western world and culture. So he's not saying anything that's really new, but he's then applying it to like borderline conspiracy theory. So it is, it is interesting, but it is like, while you're watching it, you're like there's a lot of fallacies, there's a lot of leaps in logic. The Israel wants to unite itself by breaking the world. Video I watched.

Speaker 1

He's talking about how Israel is essentially creating. He's talking about how Israel is essentially creating. It's doing a manufactured genocide in order to have a ritual I'm not kidding A ritual of child sacrifice, because what he says right 47% of people killed in Gaza are under the age of 18. So the majority casualties by age are those under 18. That's like the largest casualty group and that is such an inflammatory, abhorrent sin to the Western world that this is going to make the Western world unanimously unite and condemn Israel. And Israel's doing this because if they fulfill that, the whole world's united against them. It will accelerate the Jewish view of revelation of apocalypse, and so he's like arguing like Israel's trying to be accelerationist.

Speaker 1

I'm saying this. All this is very conspiratorial. I'm not saying this is our beliefs at all, but this is just like some of the videos he's putting out and it's very well timed, like, uh, you know, this one came out literally, I think, just a week before um the strike on Qatar, um, and this week we see, you know, the videos coming out of Gaza of the airstrikes on the, the structures in Gaza, to essentially like flatten it and get rid of anything that could be used as like um apartments or, you know, um living quarters for people in Gaza, um, and so it's just, it's just like all of it he's doing very well and though you, if you pay attention, you realize like this is total propaganda. And then the real question is like okay, well, why is the ccp fighting so hard to make?

Speaker 1

We're not fighting, but like working so diligently to make this uh false, uh appearance of lectures, college university lectures from an esteemed professor who went to yale, uh, you know, talking about this kind of doomerism stuff, I find it pretty fascinating. I do think people should check out a couple of the videos. Like I said, a lot of them have interesting premises that then you can like work through and wrestle with yourself. But also I encourage you to be aware of, like this is what propaganda looks like, and it's not always just CCP. Like you're going to find the same thing from quote unquote Jewish professors, muslim professors. You're going to find the same thing from American, like renowned professors that you're not going to realize that this isn't actually a lecture hall in Harvard, but it looks like it. And they say he went to Harvard and he did teach one semester at Harvard. But it's all constructed to look and appear as if this is a very natural progression of the dialogue in the nation.

Speaker 1

And the sooner you can watch that and start discerning the real from fiction, the better off you're going to be and navigating the sensationalism of this news which ultimately, I'm saying, relates back to like what's going on with Charlie Kirk and the other kind of incidents that have popped up over in the last week, um, which we haven't even talked about that, but there's been a quite a few other ones that bloomed up. Simultaneously with Charlie Kirk, the next morning, there was an IED that failed to go off underneath a ambulance or a no, it was underneath a Fox News truck in Utah and the IED failed. So the SWAT the local sheriff department got uh, did like they did an investigation, got a warrant to raid this house where they believed the uh builders of the id were. They raided it. There was a ton of other ids that the builders themselves said oh no, those are real, those aren't fake like we're planning on using those too. Um, and then there was the recent um. What was it? Was it a fire bombing recently that injured three people?

Speaker 1

That were was also kind of targeted towards the media. Um, anyways, all that said, things are happening. You need to be able to filter it and understand what is the real, actual facts coming out of a situation and avoid the propaganda spew, because it's everywhere and it is a very successful means of controlling a narrative, and it's not just on youtube, it's not just on your favorite news channel, it's on TikTok, it's on Facebook, it's on Instagram, anyways. So that's my whole rant on this and why I'm bringing up this guy Because it will help you, I think, to navigate it and find authenticity. In fact, better than propaganda.

Speaker 2

Yes than uh propaganda. Yes, you gotta filter it all in. Like the. You have to think of yourself as your grandma watching an ai video clip. Yeah, like you are that. That is what you are being manipulated stuff, which what you're seeing is not real. You know like, or it's like the grandma who was watching a like a kid play like grand theft auto five or something, and she thought it was the news yeah, you know like, you have to realize that you're not above that being that person.

Political Corruption and Epstein Files

Speaker 2

You are that person or you will be that person eventually. As far as like how we filter through and discriminate or discern against the, the messages we're getting you know and understand what's real and what's not, and what's um, what's really going on. Um, yeah, this I did not know about that. Uh, that bomb, I was just looking it up. There's not a lot of information on the guys besides their names, which are um, a little bit, uh, they were middle, a little bit Middle Eastern, they were Arab, yeah.

Speaker 1

This is the best I could find on them. I don't know if they were even Arab immigrants. They were of Arab kind of background, which there's no information out there on this. I only saw their names and that they were like where they were registered at university wise, yeah, and they're just wild.

Speaker 2

Looks like maybe a father, son, same last name, 58 year old, 31 year old, or uncle, son or uncle nephew thing, whatever. But I mean, yeah, I think that there's always more at play or the more things going on. Like I don't think going into conspiracy world is very helpful at times. But you, my biggest, like my big conspiracy theory is that there is not necessarily. There's not not about a deep state or a cabal or a thing. My big thing would be like there is evil in this world and there is a master of evil things in this world and the who is somewhat coordinated. Yeah, right, and I don't I'm not devil behind every bush type of guy or whatever, but I feel like it's something, it's like a sound thing. I can place, um, some understanding on some of these things to go okay, why is all this happening? What is going on? And starting there with what's going on with evil in this world and the I mean the lots of things happened this last week, even the the Epstein file vote.

Speaker 1

Happened, simultaneously, happened during all this. It happened at the same time of Charlie Kirk's assassination. It was like down within a couple minutes of each other.

Speaker 2

Yeah, so that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1

it makes it hard to not go and if you don't think that republican and democrat parties are two wings of the same bird, look at how many republicans voted to not have that released. It was a landslide of them. Yeah, so like it's not black and white folks, yeah and yeah, it's like did black and white folks?

Speaker 2

yeah, and yeah, it's like did is of all the did. Have they all gotten to see it? You know the list, or whatever, or are they just voting on something they don't even know? And they just got their, got their marching orders their orders. Hey, yeah, dude, you want it, you want to, you want to stay in this game. You like, you like this cushy life. That's the you want to be president, someday you're gonna say no to this dude.

Speaker 1

Uh, that's the scariest part to me, because here's, here's a real conspiracy for you. Look at the people who voted no on the epstein list, uh, the senators who voted no on releasing it. And then look at the senators who received the most funding from essentially, the ADL and APAC and all that. It's pretty much like the senators who get the most funding from Israel are the senators who voted no against this. And if that doesn't kind of give more credence to what you were talking about last week or the week before, pat, about the whole Epstein connection to Mossad possibly, then I don't know what does.

Speaker 2

Right, yeah, and I mean it's a frustrating, disturbing thing. It's a frustrating, disturbing thing and whatever's going on up on that hill is all a big game.

Speaker 1

It's not different now.

Speaker 2

It's just as the same creature as it was before Trump. It doesn't matter who's in power one side or the other, one side or the other, or it's uh, it is uh, um, what's the phrase? People would say you know the? I'm always saying something like it's not a left versus right thing, it's a, it's a kind of a, it's a class, it's a. You know, a them versus us thing or like, or you know the top versus bottom thing. You know, I don't necessarily totally believe in that, but that is a better example of what is actually kind of something to be and how we've seen gosh we were talking about it a few weeks ago like Dan Bongino and like the Cash.

Speaker 2

And Cash Patel and these things, and being like what the heck is going on with these guys, because they're different than they were a year ago.

Speaker 1

They're not the same guy they were a year ago.

Speaker 2

It's so different? Unless they're, unless they're just complete liars, you know, to get a position which someone like you know I don't know, like I don't know if dan bongino actually had political aspirations, you know but, you know which?

Speaker 2

I don't. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, I have no idea. He just was a you know a secret, I don't. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, I have no idea. He just was a you know, a secret service guy and then a podcast guy, and then he was called into this thing, you know. So it's like um and say, and cash Patel does have political, um, you know, uh, aspirations aspirations.

Speaker 1

Um, that's also crazy cash patel. And then you read about his girlfriend or fiancee I have no, no, no idea about. Are you for real? No idea, dude it is enlighten me.

Speaker 1

It is like, without a doubt, that she's my son, like she's like a honeypot for sure.

Speaker 1

Like it, the timing that they started dating and she came along coinciding with him, getting like the momentum to then become, you know, appointed to something by Trump, and then it happened to be the FBI, and then just like seeing how she just kind of manifested out of thin air, dude, it's pretty crazy and they're like the worst part is like the denial of it. And the worst part is like the denial of it like if, if the reaction to it wasn't like, if the reaction to people like alluding, like maybe she's got connections to, you know, the Israeli government, and they were just like okay, whatever, and they just like shrugged it off. But the fact that, like they have doubled down and argued against this so hard and like there's a ton of like stuff that is coming out about, like essentially her kind of like story not lining up of like her career and such that, uh, I don't think it'd be as like in the zeitgeist as it is. But it's because they're fighting against that narrative so hard that everyone's like oh, okay, well like no, you're.

Speaker 1

It's a classic thing of like you know, if you don't really engage and deny excessively, then like people forget about it and it just seems fringe. But if you get really personal about it and like really like invested in denying it, then it's like okay. Like how many times do you have to say you're not gay before people believe you're actually?

Speaker 2

gay. You know what I mean. Like that, that's that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, just deny it. And the um, what's with all these older guys marrying all these young ladies? It's ridiculous, especially on the uh. Who's the um? Uh, the girl, who's the press secretary or whatever? What's her name?

Speaker 1

For Trump right now? Yeah, I don't know her name.

Speaker 2

She's married to some like 60-something-year-old dude.

Speaker 1

She's got hardly any time to be a press secretary because Trump is just talking so much directly to the camera, caroline Leavitt.

Finding Peace in Troubled Times

Speaker 2

She's 27. She's married to this like 60-something-year-old guy, same with this young girl who married Cash and like whatever, and Trump obviously too. So it's like and like. Maybe age it doesn't matter that much, there's just still like. There's some things I just don't like.

Speaker 1

You know, or just like, or trends and things.

Speaker 2

You know whatever, like you know it's just whatever. Who knows it's? Maybe this is just how it's been through all of history. If you're, if you rule the world, you, you have a young wife. I don't know what the deal is, sure, but um, all that, to say one one thing I was thinking about when you were talking about how many people on the left and right, both uh voted down the uh be. It'd be curious to actually go through the list of all the people who voted to not release it and then go look at the people on the right, specifically how many people voted to not release it who actively campaigned on that, with you know saying, because it was a huge it was a huge topic.

Speaker 2

Yeah, lots of people were calling for it to come out and I'll say like I've seen some things where like um, uh, like don jr, like I haven't seen him post much about, like usually, anything his dad posts, he's like reposting right away or like like you know, but like, but he did post a lot about the epstein stuff and now he's like crickets, but but he's not saying but he also hasn't been like get over it, get over it.

Speaker 2

He's just kind of like kind of like I'm just gonna back out of this one for a minute, like kind of thing, like I don't know, dude, it's not a good look.

Speaker 1

No, it definitely damages trust in the institution when they had all the opportunity to gain an insane amount of it well they could have got a lot of trust back and said they broke a lot more of it yeah, it is. Uh, it is a crazy, crazy thing, man. I guess ultimately, we'll see what really comes out with, uh, more of the gizlaine testimony, um that'll be pretty interesting.

Speaker 2

How is it? How's that still not happened yet? Get a minute, get them out there and make them talk. It's like that. That's my comment about the rope over the tree thing, and not about not about death, as also much as like justice, move forward with it, like these things could go on forever, isn't the? Uh, like you know, like the biggest one for me when I was younger watching it was the. Watching the the batman shooter um man shoot the guy dressed as a joker in denver shot oh, yeah, yeah yeah, just it drags on and on forever.

Speaker 2

Another case, another appeal, whatever, like. All this is just like well, he's not. He's not competent to stand on trial for himself just make a decision on this, because it's it's cut and dry what the deal is.

Speaker 1

I mean, is it even really debate? What like, is it a debate that it matters if he's insane or not? Like honestly, yeah, here's, here's going back to the flesh simulator thing. It's like kill all them, kill all the man. He killed a bunch of people in movie theater and terrorized people for some of them for like the rest of their lives. I still have met people who are like uncomfortable going to movie theater because they were at that one.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And, uh, it's one of those things where it's just like there's the only way to resolve that is by real, real consequences. Anyways, Um, well, I think that's it's good Cause I got some other stuff we could talk about, but we can do it all like offline and prep for the next thing. But I think I think this is a good summary of kind of like the process we've gone through in the last week, you know, and how we've been seeing everything around us Not just accelerated intention, but heightened as well as all the false information that's going around. You'll never regret being patient to open your mouth Right, and if you feel like you're at a place where you want to say something insanely inflammatory because you're angry and you just don't care, I guarantee you if you just breathe and pray and wait an hour, you'll feel way less inflammatory, Like you need to say that.

Speaker 2

And you might still have your spot as a host on a late night show. And you might still have it. No kidding.

Speaker 1

You might not have gone fired. So anyways, ken, thanks for joining us. Please give us feedback, let us know how we're doing. We appreciate you. We love you. See you as family. Take care of yourself, you know. Spend time with God, spend time with family.

Speaker 1

I have to say, the best thing I did out of all this stuff, with what happened with Charlie Kirk, is that I laid down next to my wife and I held her for about five minutes and just held her and just prayed to God and said thank you for this gift. And, uh, man, I loved it. It was. It was a peaceful, serene moment, and I've done it just about every night since, because I know that Charlie doesn't get to do that and it feels very real. And so if that's the biggest thing that is coming out of all this for me in my own personal life is that I hold my wife a little bit longer each night and spend a little bit more time mentally resting in that and being aware to appreciate it. I got no regrets. So, pat, you got any sign-off Till next time?

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Mick

Co-host
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Pat

Co-host