Rusted Blades and Red Rocks

The gear you carry should earn its place, and sometimes that truth shows up the hard way. We open with a CRKT Provoke that went from ocean-rusted and over-torqued to brand-new after a painfully honest warranty claim—no lecture, just a fix. From there, we dig into how value really works in everyday carry: why affordable tools you won’t lose might beat luxury blades you will, and why customer support can matter more than steel type.

Our attention turns to firearms and the fine print of reliability. We unpack a Shadow Systems barrel saga where microscopic tolerance errors turned a carry gun into a jam machine, how we documented the failure, and what finally solved it. Then we wade into the SIG P320 controversy with clear eyes—how striker-fired designs differ, why tolerance stacking can create edge-case dangers, and what sets apart safe platforms from ones that demand too much faith.

Resetting outdoors changed the tone. Zion and Bryce Canyon delivered the most seamless national park experience we’ve had: e‑bikes up the canyon road, quiet pullouts with grandstand views, and Bryce’s surreal hoodoos that bend perspective and legs.

Finally, an archery elk hunt that came down to inches and wind. We patterned bulls, set perfect ambushes, drew at 20–35 yards, and watched two chances vanish when the breeze turned. Along the way: shot ethics, arrow versus bullet realities, and a humble camp stew after a long hike. No hero shots—just honest lessons about why wind is king, why process beats ego, and how close calls sharpen the next season.

If you’re into practical gear, national park strategy, the messy truth about water in the West, or the adrenaline and humility of hunting, this one’s for you. Listen, share with a friend who loves sharp tools or big sandstone, and leave a review to tell us what gear you trust most—and why.

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Transcript

The CRKT Provoke and a Rusty Mistake

SPEAKER_01 0:48

So I uh I have this knife. And you've seen a knife similar to this knife. Oh yeah. Because this is not the knife I used to own. Really? Yeah. Did you give up? Or you you just cleaning I was cleaning the rust off of it. Uh and for people listening, I have this uh this is the uh CRKT, which they don't like it when you call it a cricket. They don't call their company cricket. Well, don't name it such a damn long name. Well, don't abbreviate it as cricket. Yeah. CRKT, it feels like you just intentionally left out the vowels from the word cricket. And for those who don't know, it's Columbia River Knife and Tool Company. Yes, it is. Good job. I I didn't know that. But um anyway, so this is the uh cricket. Uh it's I can't remember the exact name of it. Um, but it's their Karambit that flicks out, and they have a few different versions, and one of them is uh all like really nice kind of silicone magpole um like uh grip. And uh of course that doesn't rust, but that's not as cool as the aluminum uh locomotion grip. Um sorry, it's called the uh CRKT provoke folding knife, and it's pretty sick, and it's a great fidget toy, it's so sharp. It's it is like Velociraptor Jurassic Park sharp. Um because the um it is curved and it's serrated and it just glides into anything at the tip pokes.

SPEAKER_05 2:23

Like a crambit. At the range, a guy cut his arm. At our range. With this knife? With a crambit.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Who did that?

SPEAKER_05 2:32

It was I don't know. I was I was hoping it wasn't you, and when the guy was telling the safety briefing and our orientation story, he was like, couple weeks back here, this guy, because they they're talking about like there's no there's never been someone no one's ever gotten to her. Shot no one's gotten shot themselves or shot somebody else, but like the you know, most accidents happen or splinters or whatever, and but this guy, he's like he said this this kid made a he's like made a shot he was trying to do all day, and so he like flipped his knife out like celebration and was whirling it around and then stuck it in his arm and had to uh and it started bleeding everywhere and had to go get it stitched up.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, no kidding, dude. But uh I can imagine, dude. If this went into my like tricep or bite bicep, it would flay it open.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

The little claw.

Warranty Ordeal and Customer Service Win

SPEAKER_01 3:17

It's so sharp. But, anyways, it was a great knife. Uh, I ran into the ocean with it when I was uh on a bachelor party, and that's what made it start rusting. Because I ran into the ocean, pulled it out, let it dry, and then I guess coming back to high altitude in Colorado really dried it out. And it's even anodized. It's called like a titanium anodization. Now I don't know because it's all aluminum. I don't think any part of this knife is made out of titanium. But I guess it's an anodization that uses titanium. I don't know. It didn't work because it was rusting around it. So I took it apart, which was a pain in the ass, cleaned all the rust off, coated it, and uh an oil, and then started trying to assemble it. And to get this uh super smooth locomote motion action, you actually are uh drill bit like a torque system on both sides. And so there's a how hollowed out screw from one side, and then the other side has another screw that screws into the hollowed out screw. And if one side is over-torked too much, you lose the locomotion because it's too tight and it seats it up. So they have like I didn't know this until I like looked up like how to screw it tight, and like there's people who with similar locomotion stuff showing like you need two drills and they need to be at like the same weight, like uh torque, and they're counter-drilling, and then you stop because as soon as they reach a certain torque, they both just start timing out. Yeah, and that's how you do it to keep it from going over. Well, I found that out after I had like tried assembling it and just sheared every single screw head and my drill bits, and uh, I'm pretty sure I uh might have burnt the motor out on one drill trying to do it. Oh my god. So I was like, fuck. So I got online, must have been a Ryobi. Well, the Ryobi's still working, it's the other one that's not working, right? Um, but uh I uh went on to CRKT's website and found their warranty stuff, called them, and they were like, Yeah, just fill out a warranty formula it in, and we'll assess if we can, you know, if it falls underneath warranty and we'll repair it, or we'll let you know like we're not repairing it and we can mail back the broken one. I was like, ugh, that sucks. All right. So I on the form I filled it out and I was like, literally, like reason for warranty. I was like, I tried to be a man and like repair and clean my own knife. I disassembled the knife, removed all the rust, oiled, and went to reassemble it, and I've over torqued and ruined everything, and now it's all a wobbly jit. Like, it's like it would like not fold out, or if it did, it would lock in place because it was too tight, but then it'd also be wobbly because the tension wasn't even across all four screws. It was a meh, it was totally not safe to use. It totally defeated the purpose of like a quick reaction knife, right? And I was like, So I was like, I try to be a man, try to fix myself in reassembling it. I've only broken it, made it worse. And my final words were I am stupid, please forgive me. Please fix my knife. I didn't even ask for a new knife, yeah. And then I didn't get any notification that they received it. I like mailed it out to them, and I was like, uh shit, well, we'll see. They might have just opened it and be like, yeah, we're not even gonna bother, we're just throwing this away. And uh then yesterday, after I got home from my trip to Zion, this was in the mail. And I opened it up in a fresh box, uns unopened plastic. They didn't even they didn't even say like there wasn't like a letter saying like we just replaced it. It was just like new knife. Let's go, dude. Yeah, I'm freaking stoked. I'm happy. This is a this is a uh very um uh enthusiastic review of the customer support and warranty system for CRK team.

SPEAKER_05 7:23

Yeah, they are uh their customer care is awesome. Have you used it before? Yeah, yeah, I've used it before for like uh uh basically when a clip wears out or and or if your screws where you lose screws to hold your clip in and stuff. That's usually the first thing that goes is the bell clip, and so they'll just they'll just send you new stuff to put it together um and take care of your knives and so and what I like about them too is like they're I except my I've had three um and I still have two of them. The first one I had I lost, but the um and usually it's the it's like the the M16 Tonto is the is my is my go-to. I got two versions of it. I really like their EMT version.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Like that they actually issue Marines? They I think they may have. There's a knife that they made that was like the USMC standard issue pocket knife for a while.

SPEAKER_05 8:17

Because it was it's a great knife, and then I had like the EMT version, so it was it was orange, which I liked because I used to like camo knives or like black knives or something or just like you know gas station knives. Yeah, but guess what? Hard to find them when they fall in the woods. When you're outside in the woods, you lose that stuff. So an orange knife is awesome, and um, and then it had uh basically a seatbelt cutter in it and a glass breaker, and the way they incorporated it in there was really just clean. It didn't take up, it didn't look weird, it didn't have extra um uh it didn't ruin any of the function of the actual knife. And then also because it's a pretty large knife, the seatbelt cutter is on the the I guess the front of the tank, the part that you flip with your thumb to come out. And so it's got a little, it's almost like a little gut hook, but really tiny, but you can use it for like for opening boxes, cutting string, whatever. You don't have to get your whole knife out, you just pull that out and slip it through stuff.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

But and honestly, you shouldn't be using your actual knife blade if you can avoid it. Right, for yeah, so for that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

But they're I think they're awesome knives, and they're like they're not cheap, but they really are affordable. Like they're they're definitely like not cheap, meaning like they're not poorly made. Their qual build quality is real, I think, really good.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Yeah, well, and I think they have very entry-level affordable knives to get into. Um and they also have very niche, high-end, expensive knives. You know what I mean? Um, I'm looking at like their they have like 15 different versions of this M16 Tonto. Yep. And one of them starts at 40. Yep. And then some of them go up to I think looks like the most expensive one I can find here is like over a hundred.

SPEAKER_05 11:38

Mm-hmm. Um but if you're getting into like some of the other companies for that same cost, you're going 300. Yeah. For that, yeah, for benchmade. Yeah, for a benchmate, you're gonna lose it, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:48

And so it's like never buy a benchmade. As much as I love benchmade and I think they're well-made knives. It's like buying a pair of Oakley sunglasses. You're gonna lose them.

SPEAKER_05 11:55

It's you're gonna scratch it, you're sunglasses, you're gonna lose them.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

That cheap ass gas station knife, you ain't ever losing that. Exactly. You fucking you drop those. This is a joke I love. I can't remember who said it. I wish I could give credit to the community. It's like those damn cheap ass like sunglasses from the gas station, you know, you're you can't lose them if you want.

SPEAKER_05 12:15

Like, can't kill them.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

You're on the boat leaning over to catch a fish and your oak leys or your ray bands fall off. They're gone, they're gone forever. They immediately sink to the bottom because they're basically made out of lead. But you drop your like ten dollar uh pit bull uh no bulldog sunglasses and a scuba diver surfaces with them in hand asking if you know you dropped them or something. Oh yeah. And I feel like that's exactly the thing, same thing with knives. Like any knife over a hundred dollars, I'm almost always losing in the first year. And watches. Watches.

Knife Value, Losing Gear, and Everyday Carry

SPEAKER_05 12:47

I had a watch that I um it was a like an Iron Man or whatever. Yeah, it's like a whatever cheap, you know, it's like your$30 gas, like or$30, like, you know, just from the store. And uh I lost it. I first of all, I found it in a lake, and then I put it on, and then I lost it in the ocean twice. The first time I lost it in the ocean, it fell down deep. My mom swam way down there and retrieved it, which was awesome. We were heading out snorkeling, and we good mom move. It was impressive. We're heading out snorkeling, and we on the way out, it must have fallen off. I didn't realize. And then we saw we saw these giant mana rays. It was, I mean, huge wingspan, these huge mana rays, super cool. And then on our way back in, I noticed my watch is gone, and we looked down, and it was about for like 30 feet down, it was down there. No way, and she just dove down there and like cleared her nose as she went the whole way, and just gravity came up. I was like, that's incredible, Mom. Yeah, I was like, that's like a middle crap. That's it, that's impressive, Miss Pat. It was awesome, and then I lost it on the beach later on because they basically the Velcro on the band had worn out. Oh, yeah. Then I lost it swimming again in the waves on the beach, and then I found it the next day snorkeling. It floated past me, and I and I You're just you're never gonna lose the free stuff like that. Yeah, dude. It's it's just it's unkillable. Yeah, and same with my uh I see RKT knives. I've had them forever. I I did lose one, but since then I've had two for over one of them, I've had one of them for over my first one I had for like three, four years, and then the other ones I've I've had a one for ten years now, and the other one I've had for five, six years now. So and they're they're awesome.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

It is crazy, like I think they are definitely the sharpest knives from the factory, at least in my experience. Like, I haven't had a knife come out of the box that sharp. And it's like ubiquitous across all their models, I think. Because I also used to have their super tiny little foldable pocket knife one where like the blade is you know shorter than two inches. Uh, but it's a great little letter opener, quick, quick cut one. And uh I love that thing. Uh but it was like it was scary sharp, like it was unsettling sharp. Um but yeah, uh, you know who else though makes good knives?

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Spiderco. And Spiderco is headquarters here in our in our beautiful state. Yeah, forget that. They apparently sometimes I gotta look to see what it is, but they apparently do like just a like um outlet sale of overstock stuff they have, and it's like a bunch of of their knives at discount of like over 50% off. And you just walk up, but they only do it for a few days until they sell out, and they always sell out, and they do it every year here. So I think you and I should go the next time they do that. For real. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 15:51

Check it out.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

But uh, anyways, um, so yeah, I got my I got my knife replaced. Uh, I finally um I finally got my uh shadow systems barrel fixed. So I don't know if we mentioned on the podcast, but my shadow systems barrel for uh one of the slides kept on having rounds get stuck in it, and the the ejector couldn't pull them out because they were so wedged in tight. The casing was getting stuck in. The case after it would fire. No, not a squib load, but literally like the the chamber diameter was too small by like thousandths of a millimeter. And I think it's from like their anodizing process. Um or not anodizing, is it yeah, I think it's anodizing, no, nitritine. They're nitriting the barrel like they do, like a lot of people do with AR barrels as well. You know, they get the nitride cheat treatment. But sometimes that nitriting is so thick that if you don't have your tolerance properly in spec for you know your mechanical tolerances of things, you know, having just enough room to uh be a thousandth of a millimeter off, then when you add that extra coating, it's gonna be too tight. And so it happened with like three different brands of ammo, none of it reload, all factory stuff. I filmed it, showed them the videos, and then they sent me a barrel, and the bear, the next barrel they sent me did the same thing. And I was like, dude, guys, now I'm concerned for your manufacturing stuff. So I recorded it, showed them all the stuff, gave them another call. They kind of were like, at that point, they were like, Well, we're gonna you're gonna have to send in the gun because there's no way we're making this mistake. And I'm like, guys, um I can show you on video. And I showed them with the barrel. I have I have a shorter slide from them that with uh the barrel that came with that one. Perfect, and all the like super big, like uh all the casings that got stuck in these other chambers would just like drop in there like nothing and pull out like nothing, and they'd sit flush. But with all these cases that were too tight, if they wouldn't sit flush, and if you pushed them down to make them flush, then like you could pick up the barrel by just holding the casing and shake it around and it wouldn't ever come out. On video too, I think the thing that really sent them was that I like bent the needle nose pliers I was using to wedge the case out. Oh yeah. Because the in the because they were like soft needle nose tips so they wouldn't scratch anything, but they bent backwards because of how like wedged the case was in. I was like, see, like now I needed to use like actual pliers to pull this out. Um, so finally they sent me a third barrel, immediately went and tested it at the range after I got it, no issues. Everything uh like is coming in and out of it easy, and all the casings that were getting jammed in the other one, I kept them just to test their fit, and it works great. So Shadow Systems fixed it on the third one, you know, and it was gonna be one of those things of like, hey, third times the charm or three strikes, you're out. Because I was getting I was getting ready, bro. I was like, hey, if this is an issue, I'm just gonna sell all my shadow system shit because I can't I can't have this being a carry gun and having it lock up on me from the first round because and like also like it's not something that you can just rack the slide.

SPEAKER_05 19:19

No, it's stuck, it's stuck. Like done.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

I wouldn't I would need to use my knife. That was one thing too. One knife I used in like the when I was at the range because I didn't have my uh pliers on me. I was like, oh, I'll just try to wedge it out with my knife tip. It it broke the tip off of a steel knife with how tightly wedged it was in there, right? So it was kind of one of those things that was like if this happened in an actual self-defense situation, I'd be fucked. So all I said, they fixed it. I sent everything into them. They said they're looking into it and they're aware of it and seeing if it's affecting any of the other barrels. Um, and uh, they were very appreciative. They didn't charge me anything, I didn't have to pay for any mail or shipping. And uh they wanted the casings that got stuck as well as like the other barrels they had sent me and stuff, so that way they could test them all up there and see what the thing is. I'm trying I tried to measure it with my own calipers, and it was always a little hard to tell because I don't have digital calipers, but from what I could tell, like the the difference was literally like one one thousandth of a millimeter in the diameter of the of the chamber, and that's enough with you know like a small explosion that it's gonna wedge a case or not. You know, that's that's the difference between like casing easily is ejected or a caseing is now basically friction locked into your chamber and your gun's dead. So those are two things, two warranty things that got repaired, two companies, great customer service.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Look at that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

And uh I'm sure I'm sure Shadow Systems has my number saved at this point after how many back and forth phone calls I had with them to try to diagnose it, and how many videos I've sent them on email. So I'm pretty sure like if I call them again, they're just gonna be like, oh fuck, it's just got it. They're home right to the freaking voice message system. We're not answering today. But yeah, no, I'm just kidding. They were they were great. I was getting ready though. We have a buddy who's been on the Mickey Pash show before who actually is on a first name basis, I would say. Yeah. With uh with a exec at Shadow Systems. I was like, if I have to, I'm just gonna reach out to that guy. I'm just gonna reach out to him on like LinkedIn and be like, hey man, can you get your customer service department? But they they were fine. I didn't I didn't do that at all.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

Didn't have to didn't have to go over there, the big dogs. Yeah, yeah. The uh I I've I've been trying to like shadow systems.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

What do you mean you've been trying?

SPEAKER_05 21:53

You don't own one. I know, but every time I hold one and shoot one, I'm just like, that just doesn't get me.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Doesn't it doesn't I don't know whether everybody take this with a grain of salt because this is a guy who's still I'm a SIG boy. He's yeah, he's a little dirty, nasty Sig boy. And I'm I'm gonna say it with the hard R. Oh yeah. You SIGGR. Oh my god. I freaking hate that I'm sitting at this table with you.

SPEAKER_05 22:20

I I oh I hate that I love them. Hate that I love them. I hate that I that the It's okay to love the old ones. That the Glock and can't love the new ones. Glock platform doesn't feel good in my hands.

Shadow Systems Barrel Tolerance Saga

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Well, it's interesting you say that because that's like one of the main selling points of Shadow Systems is that it's a Glock system based off of the third gen Glock, but their angle is way different on the grip. That's true. It's it's technically like a much more close, it's a lot more similar to the sig angles of like the P226 and stuff, and that's why a lot of dudes ended up liking them because they hate their Glock grip angle, but they like you know, shadow systems. I am I am slowly regressing like in in uh refinery, and I'm just I think my next purchase is a Glock.

SPEAKER_05 23:08

This is just a straight plain old one, just a straight plain J.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Well, I'm gonna get one like cut for optic. Oh, yeah, but um nothing with like no aftermarket trigger or like ported barrel. Really? I'm just yeah, because I see so many guys running them on competitions now, and apparently the Glock 47 is like the perfect balance of weight and recoil impulse um and length of slide uh on the Glock system, and like a lot of dudes are doing really good with it. Now, I think it's way more the shooter and what's between your brain, I mean what's between your ears on like how good of a shot you're gonna be and perform at a competition, right? But as someone who's gotten to the point where I feel pretty good and I'm consistently in the timing of uh A rank for USPSA, I'm kind of like, all right, maybe it's worth getting a dedicated race gun if I want to try to get master or grandmaster in the next few years and really dedicate time to it rather than just like using my stock carry gun. So that's my thoughts. Um you I swear to god, Pat, if you buy any more SIG guns, I am gonna be I'm gonna be mad, dude.

SPEAKER_05 24:23

I'm gonna be really mad. The new 2011 is so dope. No, it's not it's trash. It's so good and wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_05 24:30

It's just as much trash as Bluefield's 2011.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Dude, that is easily the biggest like stain on Sean Ryan's reputation is the amount of freaking SIGs he's handed out. I know, but I I'm just imagine like imagine Sean Ryan gets sued in 20 years because those cigs have like killed or hurt like the dudes he handed them out to.

SPEAKER_05 25:00

I know.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

I did see the video though. That like the the new Sig 1911 or 2011 system looks pretty cool. And it kind of makes me think like that's what all their engineers were working on because they knew it's all come out. I don't know if you've read their latest reports of like internal messages in the company.

SPEAKER_05 25:17

No, is it was it finally like it's all coming out? I don't know if it slowed down keeping up with it.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Um, a really great USPSA grandmaster, uh, and like just overall um like pistol marksman trainer. His name is uh Ben Steger. Uh he's on YouTube, you can watch a lot of videos. His videos are like the easiest way you could watch something for five minutes and then take what he's talking about to the range and actually practice it and like demonstrably see yourself improving. But he is so in love with the Sig drama. So like half his videos are just like pooping on Sig. Um and he's was responding to some stuff that got leaked internal-wise that like SIG has been aware of how dangerous the P320 system is for years. And it wasn't like a oh no, we've tested it, it's it's good to go. It's like, oh no, now there's like proof in the pudding that you are lying and that it has been not and you have known has not been safe, and rather than fixing it or doing a recall or warranty, they just had everyone working on this new 2011 system that fortunately accepts P320 mags because they're like, yeah, now we're just gonna try to get everybody to switch to that and like forget the 320, and now we don't have to do any warranty shit.

SPEAKER_05 26:34

Hey, I know it's bad. I got mine to do it. Did you? I did. Really? I got mine to do it, I think. Were you doing it with like a snap cap? Uh yeah, with a snap cap, depress the trigger. Just enough. Jiggle the front. Yeah. Now it's like I don't know. Did you test your flux with the new because I tested mine and it wouldn't do it? The flux won't do it. Yeah. No, but I I was like, Some people's fluxes will.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Really? Because the they've they've changed that they again back to tolerances. They've changed the tolerances so many different times without like it being like a actual different generation of the M320. I'm sorry, of the P320 M18. So you'll see like there's actually like I was comparing my flux with another dude's, and his like his slide easily sat another three four thousandths of a millimeter higher. And like, did I really measure it? No, but I could tell holding it up and see the light coming through. And his did with a slight depress of the trigger and pushing down the front go out of action.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

And we tried it a bunch with mine, couldn't get it to happen. But I'm also using one of the OG, like old, like warranted M18 slides.

SPEAKER_05 27:57

Yep. Yep. So yeah, I think I got mine to do it. Scary to click off. But at least you know now.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

I know now, and I will say with it's kind of like a dog, you're wondering if the dog's safe or not, and then it bites you finally. You're like, well, at least I know.

SPEAKER_05 28:10

And there is a point where it's like you have to take your trigger all the way to the back of the wall. So it's still kind of like the I'm not saying that they I'm not denying that they go off, but that the it is like a it's not a great argument to be like you gotta pull the trigger pretty much all the way and then jiggle it until it goes. I think it depends on it versus like versus like because then how it's looking at all the if you if you just had it and just jiggled it and it went off with it like without messing with the trigger, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Well, look at all the ones where they're cocked and locked in someone's holster and then they're going off.

SPEAKER_05 28:52

And they go off. No, I know they do that.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

And I think I think that's without trigger depress because the way the P320 uh essentially locks your um firing pin is it's it's holding it back fully pre-locked. And a lot of people don't get it. Like when you rack the slide on your Glock, your Springfield, your uh Smith and Weston, you're actually only half cocked. And it's very similar to your half cock on a revolver, where if you sit there and then you go to draw and you pull the trigger, your trigger is actually cocking your firing pin the rest of the way before releasing it. The 320 system, it's fully cocked, and when you pull the trigger, it just releases it. And so that's why this isn't like happening on other platforms, is because other platforms at physically can't fully cock the firing pin uh like the 320 just sits at rest with. And so when they go bang, because I've seen people able to do the like press the front side down while pulling the trigger back on like locks and other like striker fired, and they could do it, they have to pull it a lot further than the 320, but it's still the same thing in context. But that's the also the thing is like the reason they have to pull it back so much further is because it's all it's cocking the finish cocking the firing pin. So it's just one of those things where it's like it's a perfect storm of tolerances on the 320 to like really be dangerous versus the other guns.

SPEAKER_05 30:28

It's the fact that it's all the way back, yeah, and it's spooky. Oh yeah. So that's where the flux is fine and not carried hot, also for starters. Oh, mine is always hot.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Oh yeah. My flux is hot as a rocket. Just ready, you've seen it.

SPEAKER_05 30:46

Just red rocket it out.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Uh it's hot, flaming hot pink. Really? Hot. Yeah, no, you saw the pink job.

SPEAKER_05 30:53

Oh, I did see that.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:54

But you you go, uh do you carry with a hot pipe in it?

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:57

Are you just ready to rock and roll?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:59

I like it.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah. I want to be I want to be two rounds out of the barrel before the brace is deployed into my shoulder.

SPEAKER_05 31:07

All right. I like it. But the uh and then my other the other old 320 that I have, that's just now it's just uh paperweight collector's item. And or like I'll shoot it at the range. Yeah. At like purely flat range. Like like like on the bench like that running large. It's on the bench, and then you put the mag in while you're pointing down range, cock it or rack it, you know, and then like shoot it, like that sort of thing. But the um uh then it there hasn't been issues with the 365 for that. There's been other issues, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

I haven't heard of anyone's 365 going off into their foot.

SPEAKER_05 31:44

Yep, but I know I I honestly I hate that I love SIG so much, and I love non-sig USA.

SIG P320 Safety Controversy and Comparisons

SPEAKER_01 31:53

I love European SIG, Swiss SIG. Yeah. I I would debate, like, if someone was like, hey man, um I'll give you this SIG 550 or 553 or 552, I'd take any of those versions. For uh all you gotta do is uh we just get to cut off one of your like uh one of your toes. Oh yeah. It is not, and I was if it's not my big toe, I would do it. I'd be like, yeah, sure. Get the pliers, man. Clip this bitch off. I don't need my like middle toe. Are you kidding? I would do it. I love those guns. And I I do love like the 226 and all of its you know generational cousins. Like the 228, 225, but um I hate the Sig Cross. The Sig Cross is probably one of the only guns that will cost you a high tier like uh PRS rifle price. And it will rust like a shit bucket not well treated uh bottom of the barrel Savage. And even then I feel bad saying that because Savage makes some pretty great guns especially dollar like dollar cost ratio. And then um dude the Sig Spear LT is like one of the shittiest guns in the world. It's going off all the time in the field now with testing uh without people pulling the trigger. That's it's yeah it's just like one of those things of like dude they're they clearly have cut a crap load of corners and Sig USA is uh is definitely pooping the bed. I don't know. No one cares about this gun autism stuff as much as I do but when you're selling products for the cost of like you know a used motorcycle I've got to like I better get what I'm paying for you know it better still be you know something I can ride or die with and I just don't see the I don't I don't see a return of value there. If you want to buy a man Pat it's your money but I'm also gonna try to s I'm gonna try to save you money because I don't it's not that I it's not that I'm right or I or I know better. It's that I just hate seeing my friends live in the darkness. Just get a gun that might hurt them one day. Get a gun that might let them down like of all things a gun should be the last thing you purchase and are okay with like letting you down.

SPEAKER_05 34:32

Oh yeah and the you know the it feels like it the firearm as a thing been around for a while now. Yeah and there's been like a many many of them that have been developed that are work without fail. So it feels like we should be at a point where like when developing firearms there shouldn't be failures like this you know trying to like reiterate or change things that like you can only like improve them so much to a point before you're just messing with them too much. Yeah like over engineering or something. And so like the have you seen the new Barrets are going off I heard about that. Yeah I did hear about the new Barrett and like the Barrett 50 cows are basically uh it's like kind of where the it's something with the bolt you can like just flick the bolt and it goes off.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Which is like I did see that like you get a dead trigger. Yeah and then you can't pull the trigger but as soon as you go to touch the bolt for some reason the bolt makes it go off. I did see that yeah something's getting stuck and then it's then it's going but it's like weird that the like the videos I saw it looked like it was literally like the slightest touch to that bolt would get it to go off but you could smash the trigger and nothing would happen.

SPEAKER_05 35:49

Yeah yep so two guns the P320 the M18 and the Barrett 50 cow heavily used by US forces US military yeah they're in a pickle and what's happened I haven't followed it with the the airmen who who passed away or yeah I was kind of following it I was following it because it started getting a little fishy.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Well it's totally like now it's manslaughter for sure they definitely blamed it on this Sig and it seems like it wasn't the Sig's fault entirely it seems like they were horsing around and someone slammed it down on the counter and it went off. Someone else put it down and it hit him well they were horsing around and he like rather than returning it to his holster or just leaving it in his holster and not goofing around with his gun he slammed it on the counter and then it went off and hit the other dude. Whereas originally they said it was like his own gun his own gun when he was taking the holster off with the gun in it and then it went off and somehow hit him in the chest. It was all fishy. Now there's apparently two guys who are one's arrested first like not first count I don't know what it is but like they're both being charged with manslaughter and conspiracy because they lied about it initially together. So well that's not good. Anyways if uh you're not interested in guns you could skip to this part. Um Billy Jean and I just got back from our anniversary trip and uh our 88th anniversary people don't need to know how many years we've been married I don't want them to know because then what if they tried to like use that to like you know get through like your secret question oh yeah on your accounts or whatever. Um but uh we went to it was kind of like a little bit of a last minute because I really wanted to go and do something like challenging for us outdoors. And I was really debating on like what to do because neither of us do mountain biking um and it was already you know in the end of the summer early fall season. So I was really trying to find something that would be fun and that we could do and enjoy the outdoors and be um you know physically challenging but also not like miserable and freezing and like cold rain cold weather uh early winter early early fall stuff um so I settled on we went to Zion and Bryce and uh holy smokes dude one first off Utah actually really loves and cares about their national parks like and I get it like most of them I mean they seem to love them like at least those two specifically those are the two most uh easily accessed and like well uh I would say not groomed but like maintained or not just even maintained but like overall like just the design and uh yeah accessibility of the the parks is unmatched like it it puts Rocky Mountain National Park to shame dude and uh it's hard to explain it until you get there but like even the way their cities like the towns outside of Bryce and Zion are set up Springdale and then Bryce technically has a town called Bryce Canyon City right out the front gates of the park but um they're just so approachable and the cost of like being there is like you not you're not paying like you know mountain town estes park prices to like eat dinner or buy groceries or pay for parking or a camp spot you know whereas like Rocky Mountain National Park if you're on the uh uh Gramby Grand Lake side or if you're on the Estes Park side like you're you're paying out the nose like even if you're just doing dispersed camping like you're you gotta pay a hefty price for that camping spot and you better reserve it like a year in advance and and like if you're trying to get if you're trying to stay not on dispersed camping but like stay uh you know in an RV somewhere like you're paying out the nose groceries are going to be expensive um the only thing Utah definitely is way more expensive about is gas like gas is easily like a dollar more there than it is in Colorado um but that it kind of makes sense because you go onto the western slope of Colorado and it's all the same price as Utah out there too. Like Grand Junction and Utah are both like$350 for gas right now whereas like we're we're at on the eastern side is$240$230 even. So um all that said very affordable incredibly family friendly and like non-activist friendly I would say like if you're not a super outdoorsy activist that wants to hike several miles or go up and down some rigorous trails like you can see everything you want in either of those parks without really exerting yourself. And if you want to like do something like that you're proud of like push yourself to accomplish you know very rigorous you know loop trail or something you can do that so easily there. It's like it's some of the best like uh orienteering and like navigating with like the park maps and the bus stops and the shuttles I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_05 41:44

And like get all around in there.

Utah Parks: Zion and Bryce Impressions

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Yeah and like again Rocky Mountain National Park like just in all the times I've gone up there is pretty much like you have you have one hike you could just keep going up it. And it gets harder I guess the more you go up because you're just still going up to more and more higher elevation lakes. But like that's it. You know and the rest of the hikes are more like pretty flat hiking down you know you're not doing remotely nearly as intensive hikes um at least in my experience from like the SS park side right uh but um yeah I would I would say like they're they're incredibly convenient and accessible uh the cost you know is the same as any national park but then dude the the lodges and the visitor centers and the stores are unreal I don't even know if Rocky Mountain National Park has a dedicated like real store visitor center at it. I think it just has the ranger booth. I don't even know if RMNP has a lodge that you can stay at. Both Zion and Bryce had like lodges in the park that you could reserve and stay at and like be there for you know activities all throughout the day starting from morning into the night like stargazing and star night like night hikes and stuff and um I just was shocked at like how much was there and it it was it really did feel um almost theme park like with like how well maintained everything was and how accessible it was. And it still felt like you're in the wilderness like you're in this beautiful majestic well preserved environment but you're also somewhere like someone is very much clearly cares about this and taking a lot of effort to maintain and take care of it. And uh yeah it was it was surreal and I will say like there was there felt like a real clear difference between like the park rangers at both those parks and other national parks I've been to where it just felt like the park rangers couldn't be bothered to do something or like and out there it was like dude I saw them on the trail all the time just literally out there to like be there to help people I saw them at various different posts giving like just free like walk up and listen to them providing like educational content on like the geology and stuff and the and the um topography and the weather and just it was awesome and uh I we did I feel like in one day Billy Jean and I really punished ourselves and we did like over a seven mile loop oh nice at Bryce and saw pretty much everything you could see at Bryce Zion is a totally different beast. I did not understand how the sky the scale of Zion is big but like Zion is one of those parks where like you could go and give a whole day to one hike and like you get up there and that's what you do that day. And then you gotta you're you're spent and you gotta leave um and there's not as many like loop trails. It's more like you're in the canyon and you just pick a route to go up and some are easier and shorter than others. It's kind of like you're picking your own 14er you know what I mean uh and you're like you just pick which one you're gonna do that day. So I think next time we're gonna go to Zion for like two or three days so we can like pick several different trails. Zion is also though so busy that you there's a quite a few trails or like other national parkland managed by the Zion National Park um that uh you have to do lotteries for and you could do like a six month out lottery or you can try to do the daily lottery. But it's it's super hard um to to get them and so we kinda and to even do the daily one you can't even apply for it unless you're within like 50 miles of where the pickup spot is oh wow and then you have to do it from your phone and if you if you don't do it from your phone you can't apply because they use a geo fence with your phone's location to decide if like you're within the area or not. That's wild. It's super selective and they some of them like cowdy buttes uh cowdy buttes for the north and south limited to 16 groups a day or 48 people whichever one fills up first and your group can have up to 10 people and so like you're entering for that lottery and there's a good chance like 16 individuals get it and that's it.

SPEAKER_05 46:20

Yeah or four groups four groups of 10 and it's filled up and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Wow and uh and you don't get like a call back if like a group fails to pick up their permit it's just like all right they're not going. And we have less people on the trail. But when you see Coyote Buttes which is like the super famous stuff people have seen on like documentaries and like Planet Earth of like the wave and this beautiful uh marbled red orange brown colors it's also it's got like no trails. It's a human heritage site where uh like there's cave uh not cave car but like wall carvings in the slot canyons but it's also one of those things where like the slot canyon to coyote buttes is like sometimes only like a foot wide and if it rains while you're out there doing your hike get up you're you gotta sprint to one end or the other and then it's flooded until the rain fills out because the water will get 20 feet tall in the slot canyon as it's raining down the rock before it can spill out into the into the Buttes area.

SPEAKER_05 47:28

And I just I realized the you mentioned the wave I was looking at I thought I I didn't realize that was where that was on that Cardi Buttes. It's sweet. I was in a customer's house the other day and they actually had like a huge picture on the wall it was like six by six yeah like picture that they had like he said his wife took while they were there.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Wow and they like got it printed out and put on the wall but I was and I was like where is that I want to see that yeah it's a super privileged thing to do to be able to go like I was I was we applied for it for because you can only apply in advance for the daily two days in advance and then you find out the night of if you got it and then you have to pick it up the day before and you have to pick it up at like 8 30. And if you're there if you're like there 30 minutes late you don't get it. That's wild. Yeah um but yeah it was it was it was it would have been cool to do it if you do it you really want a guide and the guides start out like for two people it's like bare minimum like 300 bucks but unlike Zion and Bryce like there's no trail you know there's no like anything else so you definitely want someone who's been out there a few times and knows what they're doing and knows how to kind of read the the land in the weather um but yeah the the we did uh Zion which Zion the cool thing about Zion is that there's like a through road just like Rocky Mountain so you know people who've been to Rocky Mountain National Park have experienced this probably where they want to do the um continental divide they drive up and then they could keep on going and exit out the other side of the park into like uh Grand County area. So Zion has like a same thing where it's like a three, four mile road there's like one part of it that is a whole mile long cave. Uh it's gotta be longer than the Eisenhower tunnel. It's crazy how long it is there's no lights. Wow there's just like cutouts on the side every I don't know maybe every thousand feet that they've just cut out so the outside light can shine in it smells like exhaust. But um so you can do that and you pay to enter the park and drive through to the other side to the next town. But then there's a private road that is closed outside of uh November through March and only buses can go up it or you know you can hike or bike up it. So we went down into Springdale rented e-bikes oh nice and then we just rode our e-bikes all the way up that park road uh to and like saw all the stops along the the bus routes and then got up to the top where the narrows start and then hiked in into the narrows and got in the water and took pictures and video and it started rain there was a flash flood warning so we were like okay like maybe we don't want to be in the narrows in the water if it does start flooding so then we started riding back and we had to turn our bikes and we only had a half day rental but um it's just downhill the rest of the way there and you're just riding in like complete like peace and serenity looking at all of the uh the landscape around you in the in the canyon sides you get to you get to see everything from that road like all of the like uh actual um I would say what's the word not monuments but um all the icons of Zion like the white throne and uh there's something called I think it's called like the thinking man um and there's all the outcroppings and everything like the the big stuff and landmarks that's what I mean yeah yeah all the landmarks uh and you get to see them all from the bike and no one's bothering you and as the buses are pulling in you just yield to them so they can go by you and you keep going. And it was serene it was so beautiful. And the best part too is like Billy Jean I know is like comfortable being outdoorsy but she's never gotten to do something like that really you know of like downhill biking like that through a park and uh just to hear her like aghast with like how beautiful it was and like literally out loud like wow ooh ah you know what I mean like it was she was flabbergasted and it was you know it wasn't something where we had to make ourselves miserable for it. Bryce Canyon it was fun. It was a challenge uh she said it was harder than um what are those four 14ers like uh that you do at the same time like Mount it's like Democrat and uh they're all down in like the Colorado Springs area if I can't if I think if I remember correctly but it's like you do four peaks up in one day. Yeah um she said it like the Bryce stuff that we did was harder than that um just because of how many switchbacks and the elevation adjustment in Bryce going up and down through the hoodoos. And I believe her because it was strenuous man it it was it was even for someone who lives at the that altitude it was exhausting to to do it. But we did it in like four and a half hours and uh you know it was it was a really good time but that one was like busting our butts like exhausting stuff but it was worth it and anyone who goes at Bryce do yourself a favor do it do it all if you can if you're in the health for it. People do die though like people are like oh like I can do this I can do the figure eight loop and then they like are on switchbacks and they have a heart attack in the heat and have a heat stroke and there's signs all about it everywhere. And people also die in just getting too close to the edge of the hoodoos and falling down.

SPEAKER_05 53:10

It's like in peak summer it's hot there.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Oh dude yeah and I mean we were how hot is while how hot was it when you guys were the hottest it got up to was like 80 and we had like some afternoon rainstorms.

SPEAKER_05 53:20

So that was late September.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

Yeah but like I could I could easily see like you know if we were there in June or July it'd be too hot to like and you would literally die if you were trying to hike some of those hoodoo trails. But it was it was sick and uh it that was like totally otherworldly like your brain is having a hard time processing it while you're walking through and looking at the horizon because there's so many things between you and the horizon that are each like all of them are shifting and overlapping with different depths that like your brain is having a hard time analyzing like how far things are way and there was a couple points where I was walking and I was probably tired. You know probably a little lightheaded and dehydrated but I swear to God dude it it looked like some of the hoodoos were like floating into like like past my nose towards my eyes.

SPEAKER_05 54:16

What are hoodoos?

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Hoodoos are like those narrow rock stacks okay that the wind and rain has worn down and they're they're like kind of look like uh they're in the beginning of every good cowboy movie exactly but like Bryce looks like crowns of them just encircling the whole canyon and there's thousands of them and the super famous one is Thor's hammer that's like the most famous one that you can look up a hoodoo but when you're at their elevation and you're looking at them and it looks like they're as tall as you are and there are probably three miles of them layered over each other and you can see the sky through some of them and then other ones you see more of them the the effect really does feel like almost I don't want to say nauseating because it wasn't nauseating but it gives you vertigo almost and you're like what is if I reached my hand out my hand would disappear behind them. Yeah you know what I mean and it's it's just a very surreal feeling but it's absolutely gorgeous and very beautiful. And again super accessible like both those parks open 247 and a lot of people for uh Zion especially they take the last shuttle up to the top with their mountain bike or downhill road bike and they do it you know whenever they want in the winter when it's dark early and they just bomb it down in complete darkness as well with the moonlight and stars out. And they say the starlight is so bright there that it will light up the street for you. And so like I kind of want to do that and go back to do that and bring like a you know bike for it and just go out the end of the day when it's nighttime and try to get a good one. But if you really want to see the stars don't go end of September because it was every single night rainy clouds and we never really got to see the stars at all. But anyways all I said Utah absolutely gorgeous I totally underestimated I totally wrote Utah off as probably just having like the same kind of level of national parks we have in Colorado or California and uh oh man dude it was just unreal it was it was easily the best national parks ever been to yeah I need to I need to get out there someday I've never been and I think I kind of write off Utah like also kind of like just think a lot of people from Colorado just think Utah's Moab.

SPEAKER_05 56:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

And then they're like it's Moab and then it's Salt Lake City and Mormons and it's way more than that. It's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 56:43

And there there is like a lot of nothing too as far as like the like like when you're driving out there there's like it gets kind of you know it's just it like it's a you're in this arid climate for a while but then there's you know where those uh I mean the where you have you know uh whatever like Lake Powell and just all these canyons and I mean just like this canyon land. It's crazy out there.

Permits, Shuttles, and The Narrows by E‑Bike

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Um all that and I'm like I like Lake Powell but I do think like you know you gotta have the perfect season to enjoy Lake Powell it's I would I would I would go nine times out of ten back to Zion or Bryce instead of Lake Powell just because of those are probably gonna be a lot cooler more often around like year round than Lake Powell will be. Powell's hot man Powell's so hot Powell is one of those places where like you're dying in the heat and you get in the water to run away and the water is like worse somehow.

SPEAKER_05 57:42

Yep I was I remember one time I was there was I was laying under a sheet. It was the 4th of July were you there where with this guy this knucklehead no this is I I was it was a long time ago I was there on 4th of July sleeping on top of a houseboat just dying just trying to like trying to put a sheet over just a sheet over myself but it was still just like so hot. See you just taking the sheet off.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

When I was a kid my mom took us out there with some family and stuff and um we were in a houseboat two but it was like I think for a spring break chip. Mm-hmm and so it was like March and the water was freezing dude it was so freezing cold and the water was so high because of the winter runoff there was no beaches anywhere. Like we couldn't we had to like tie the houseboat and anchor it but tie it to like canyon wall oh yeah and there was no beach so you just literally stuck on the houseboat and or you can crawl off onto some rocks that are sticking out but so in the winter spring Powell sucks. And in the end of summer Powell's awesome but you're also like just in sweltering murderous heat. You gotta be ready for it. Yeah it's uh it's an experience for sure um yeah I went I went to Powell Billy Gene and I we were actually only dating for like uh maybe like six or seven months at the time but we went with uh with Bryant Bryant yeah and uh it was a great time um super fun but it was also one of those things where like I've never been in water that hot before and it was it was like you just couldn't get away from the heat there's nothing you could do because of how hot it was and it was borderline like the water made it worse sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 59:35

Mm-hmm the uh dude you know back in the day so the Glen Canyon Dam, you know Lake Pow's man-made yeah but the um I wonder what that was like before that you know I mean it was wild there had to be water there. Oh yeah so there was a river running through the whole thing right before it was dammed up but it kind of like so it got dammed up and then it kind of had its heyday of like people coming out and using it but then people just trashed that thing. Like really it was um there were certain coves or different places like there was like one cove where everybody would go to like dump all the sewage from their houseboats and stuff. And like that cove is gnarly there was a there was one one section of the Do you think it's still gnarly? Like do you think it's still nasty there's there's there's like like around the marina and stuff it's it can be I had a buddy who was he was guiding a trip at Lake Pal and he had like he um he was was making a run back in to get more ice or something you know in a boat and then he filled up his uh can he filled up his now gene with like from the spigot on the side of the marina and then was drinking it the rest of the day. Uh and then he like but it was it was non-potable it was non-potable water. It was from it was literally for just being pumped out of the marina right there just nasty water. But also uh uh you didn't get sick from it but he said it was pretty gnarly. Yeah. But also one of the coves they had back there uh companies would come use it to dump like there was this one company that had giant batteries like these hundred pound batteries and they would just dump them in there. Thousands and thousands of thousands of pounds of batteries just in this do they fish those out they they kind of did what they could but sometimes you can't it's just like sometimes you're swimming and then your skin burns. It's just there's like a little acid a little extra acid in there. But so yeah the there's actually the history of uh the Glen Canyon Dam like pals uh it's it's a pretty like uh it's a super interesting topic but it's also it's like a it's a pretty controversial dam over time and stuff and when it got built and the you know the and dams are a controversial thing all over America but like the and it is there's this thing where it's like it's sad that I would like to go back and see it and like live without the dam and like in this in this wild world. And it's also like we got like 350 million people that need water. So we gotta like we gotta get we gotta have water and then like also then like the the hydroelectric stuff but it's like the the tension between you know the I think you do have to Some reservoirs, you gotta keep keep water stored up, but then uh I do want to it would be cool to go back to see what was it like when it was just a just a wild place.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

Yeah, yeah. There's uh I'm I'm gonna try to find it, but I just watched a documentary on like dams and the lie of them. It was something like it was literally a documentary on YouTube, but it was played up playing off of like the there's lies, damn lies, and statistics. And it was literally playing off of that, but with like damn lies instead of damn lies. Right. Because a lot of people reference the statistics of water and the watershed and like how much is needed in reservoirs to like keep America from like dying of dehydration. And basically the whole thing was like we don't need dams. Dams are literally just a way of like putting a rate on water. Like dams are dams are like one of the most like actually like uh merciless capitalistic things, and it's like it's not really capitalist because all societies have you know dams, all all governments have dams at some point somewhere, but it's just one of those things that's profiteering. Yeah, it's a profiteering thing, and it's a way of like making essentially extorting, you know, everyone along a river for for water and like controlling the supply for it. Uh be because like the big thing was it was talking about the Colorado River and like the dam the damage of damming it has done to ecosystems, but also like if you don't dam the Colorado River and let it flow naturally, like it would provide water for everybody along the whole way without needing to be dammed at all, and like there'd be plenty of water, but because we're damming it so much in a different points and diverting it, like it's not reaching its end, which means it's not making it to California, where a lot of the people who pay for the Colorado River water is, and essentially you just get to charge people the same, like you get to charge people way more money for water that would have reached them regardless, but now you just get to like divert it through other systems and infrastructure to them rather than having it just reach them from the actual river itself that flows through the state. And it was it was really interesting, it was fascinating to me. I was like, I never thought about it, but then I'm like, dude, and the way they explain it, they're like, it's the same thing as diamonds, it's the same thing De Beers did with diamonds, is like they manufactured water scarcity in order to like make it a lucrative business.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:56

They it the you know it's easy to be like talk about people talking about like big pharma, certain things, but people don't know about big water, big water, man. Big water, man. And it's a thing. Hoover Dam. Oh, yeah, and just even like locally on local levels too, the uh water rights, water shares, watershed stuff is a um it's not a bad business to be in if you're on the right side of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:21

Dude, there's a great documentary too, uh, about these two Colorado towns. It's the towns of Greeley and Fort Collins. And it's a documentary of how they like went to war back in the day in the Wild West. It like Greeley straight up was getting in shootouts with Fort Collins over the water. And uh it was it was pretty crazy, man. Like did they say who won? I think Greeley won. I think Greeley won. Because Greeley technically owns more water rights than Fort Collins.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:50

There's a bunch of water all around Fort Collins, and you go over there, what's it say? It's like City of Greeley.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

Yeah, City of Greeley owns it, yeah. Like, what the heck? Yeah, there's a I know um on a map, I was looking on a map, and there's this ditch in the Fort Collins area that is just called the Windsor Ditch. And it's for the city of Windsor, and it's just a ditch that runs all the way in the middle of town over to like the Greeley side. And I thought it was pretty interesting. Like, do you look at us talking about the most like you know, on the spectrum autism conversations that people probably don't care about? But like I know, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, then you know we talk about a lot of random stuff all the time. And if you don't appreciate, you know, uh a dedicated like freaking trip out about water rights, then I don't like you.

Lake Powell, Dams, and Big Water

SPEAKER_05 1:06:39

Um no, but uh anyways. Like, and one thing that does happen too is like you know how back in the day it was pretty popular like around mineral rights, it became a thing where all of a sudden mineral rights became so valuable when people are pumping oil out of the ground that they would when they would sell their land, they would keep the mineral rights. Yeah. And there's uh it's almost like now at this point, like no one's buying mineral rights with their land, you're not getting it, you know, for the most part. You may depend on where you are in the country, maybe you will, because it's just there's no chance, but for the most part, like mineral rights and are commonly not going to be sold to you. The same things happened later on with water, you know, where where water rights, water shares, when you buy certain properties and things, people will sometimes keep the water shares. Or uh I'm speaking into something I actually don't know. I'm using terminology, I'm not sure that what it defines, but the you're right. Because water shares.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:36

You know who we should have on here?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:37

We should have that one guy. That one guy we know. I don't want to spoil it. Is that who it is?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:45

I don't know. Oh I'm thinking, I'm thinking he's bald and he goes to our church.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:51

Oh, is the good shepherd used to go to our church and he works in water.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:55

Used to I know that guy. Yeah, that'd be great to actually have him on too.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:59

Yeah. And the uh oh, yeah, we should have the bald guy on too.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

Should have a water episode?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:05

We can just talk all water. I love that. That'd be hilarious. I think that'd be great. I've got even I've got a buddy also, he runs an irrigation company. They just fiction sprinkler heads, you know. We could we could have them all on. We got big water and little water, and everybody in between, government water, private, privately owned water, commercial, and we're gonna talk all about water because I have thought about back, you know, it's like there's all these things you can invest in, or all these things you can uh different new cutting edge technologies, whatever to get behind. But I think like I've just always been like, if you could get in on like beef, water, and like wood, you can like I take it back, like just like like settlers of Catan style. Yeah, like I'm putting all my eggs in the basket of people need to eat, people need a drink, and people need a roof. Yeah. And like, no matter what happens, you know, we're gonna need those things. And if you got got a little bit of that going on, whether personally or own company and or whatever, not probably not a bad thing to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:07

Yeah, dude, I especially like live close to a lot of farmland that is leased. That's all leased to like sod companies. I'm like, damn, that'd be sick. You don't even have to probably work. Like just lease your like 200-acre plot to a sod company that can use it every single year. Because sod, you know, sod's not like corn where like it consumes all the nutrition in the soil. And so like you're literally just like generating topsoil every year, and it so you just let them do that every year, sometimes like twice a summer, even. Yeah, and uh they pay you to rent your land and do it, and then one day you could be like, all right, like contract's over, we're not renewing. I'm like turning this into a shoot house, get off my land.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:57

The big dream.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:59

Yeah. Anyways, uh, you recently went elk hunting. I did. How is that?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:04

Well, started back when I was 13. Oh, okay. Hunting elk. I'll tell you what, boys, I'm just bad at it. God, I'm bad at it. Never never killed an elk. It's funny. So, like, you know, lots of people like I feel like I don't put it out there too too much. Like, I like like I don't put on this thing of like I'm a big time hunter or whatever, and then at the same time, I'm always wearing like right now, I'm wearing like hunting company stuff, whatever. So, but uh when I have to when I'm having a conversation with somebody and they assume that I am I'm a like a ninja Native American level hunter of the big game. Yeah, I have to break this secret to them that it's just a horrible, horrible, it's just so embarrassing. I'm like, they'll be like, like, look at this guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

This look at this white guy, he's got all the hunter gear. Yeah, he can't grow any facial hair. He's gotta be part Native American.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:59

I bet he hunts all the time. Exactly. I bet he kills stuff all the time.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:03

He's a real killer, and you know what? I've shot one deer. That was when I was 13 years old. And since then, I have been out to hunt elk more seasons than I've not. And so they continue to elude me. But sons of bitches. A couple years ago got into archery hunting, archery walking, bow walking. Yeah. I switched from rifle walking to bow walking.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

It's good exercise.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:30

Um got out there this year, and we I went with my brother-in-law, and like, let's get way back in there. So we got we got we got back in there off the trail where, you know, where hunters wouldn't be, um, hopefully, and and we actually we didn't see another hunter for uh five days. Wow. Which is pretty like was pretty awesome. But we were and we were in a pretty sweet spot uh and at night elk were bugling during the day. We're bugling at them, they're bugling back to us and stuff. We uh we patterned one. One one night we saw um when we first were hiking in, we set up camp, and as we're setting up, we just got done setting up camp, and I look out, and a bull walks out into the field 200 yards in front of us. Damn where our camp is. Yeah. Now, one, this was the day before season, so we couldn't go after him, even if we could. And two, the sun was about to go down, so we wouldn't we're gonna get him time. Three, where we were hunting, we were on a game unit line. So we were camping on one side of a creek, he and the creek was the game unit dividing line. He came out on the other side of the creek.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:42

So he's on someone's private land?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:44

Uh just different uh public land, but different game unit. A get different unit that we were did not have a tag for. And so we watched him feed down as the sun went down to to darkness where he really couldn't see anymore. He he went across, he never saw us, we got super quiet, and we watched him feed down across and then go come on to our side. And then we watched him sneak off up into the woods, and we're like, holy smokes, we're camping right where the elk are, which isn't necessarily good. We're a little too close. Sure. Um, because they're gonna smell us and they're all gonna leave. But we sleep that night, there's elk bugling all around us all night long. So we wake up in the morning and we decide to get away from our we we did hunt that that that field in the morning to watch if anything came out. Nothing came out, so then we went on a little walk about and we we were hearing elk bugle, we were talking to him back and forth, just couldn't close the distance on him. And then we decided that night we were gonna go back to that same spot where that bull had come out. And so we go and we get set up on this on this line where there was just a little stand of trees in this big meadow, and get my brother-in-law set up in there about 50 yards from the creek, and then I got back in the trees about 150 yards, 200 yards away from the creek. So I was calling back there, and then we're sitting and then we're quieting down, and the same bull pops out again. And this little stand of trees where we set my brother-in-law up in was right where he had walked through the night before. So we were like, if he does the exact same thing, he's a dead elk. We got him. And so he feeds down, crosses the creek, and um I'll tell from my brother-in-law's perspective now, because I'm back and I can see him feeding down. And this elk is coming and coming, and but he's coming straight on at him, which he and and he's below him. So even if you were gonna take a frontal shot, which is um some people fully frown upon it, it is a super deadly shot, but you have to hit basically the size of a softball. Yeah, right, basically an Adam's apple of the elk. But if they're facing you and you're above them, their nose is blocking that frontal shot zone. So he's waiting, he's waiting, and then that elk comes up to that stand of trees and comes around to the right of him. And as it's coming around the right, he's kind of moving around the trees to keep cover. And the elk, he can see the elk's head now, the elk can't see him and not looking at him. And the wind is perfect, wind is blowing just right in our face and down and or up, and there's no problems. Um and then the elk stops, and all he has to do is take two more steps. My brother-in-law is a full draw for a minute, just holding there, waiting for just waiting for him to take two more steps at 20 yards. He's right there. And then Elk stops and just turns around and walks back the way he came. Doesn't run fast, but he just turns around and starts walking the way he came. Check wind, the wind shifted on him right at the last second. All we needed was two more steps. But here's the thing about elk. If the wind's blowing the right is blowing towards them, you they'll smell you from 300 yards away.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:08

If it's going towards them, they can smell you. If it's coming, if it's blowing in your favor, they won't smell you. They'll they'll especially if it's a a rutting bull, they're they're gonna walk 10 feet from you and not smell you. Um, but the wind swirled, went right to that elk, and he just he walked off and he didn't he didn't run off. We didn't really bust him out too bad. He just turned around and walked off. He was uncomfortable, smelled something he didn't like, and got out of there. But man, 20 yards, full draw. No, from right there. How high above was your brother-in-law from the elk? At the from like when it was coming to him.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

Like, was he like 10 feet above it? Treed?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:49

Basically, no, no, so basically, just because it was he was coming up from a creek bed, yeah, that elevation difference, you know, from where he was standing to the creek was probably just four or five feet down, but just the angle wasn't there for a true frontal. In the frontal shot, you really should take 20 yards and in. Like you're not dropping a bomb at him if you're gonna do it. And you if you do a frontal, you better do it right, or you're just you're just gonna wound him bad and never find him again. And then he was never turning, he was just frontal the whole time. And so he was hoping that he would come up past him down from him, and then that'd be the broadside shot. And the thing about arrows versus bullets is you with an arrow, you really gotta your shot placement's gotta be a lot more accurate than a bullet. Um one, just the straight like kill power or impact, which would be bullets kill by cutting stuff and bleeding out, bullets kill by concussion, by trauma.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:51

The um what's it called? The uh it's the something shock um blanking. But it's why it's why a small round like two two three kills people. But like some people can take, you know, like sometimes you can take a slower round without that shock factor that is bigger, right? But it won't it won't drop you dead.

Water Rights Lore and Local History

SPEAKER_05 1:18:10

Like a 30.6 hunting round has a 17-inch circle behind it. Yeah, that it really does. It's but when that bullet hits, there's a 17-inch circle that's blowing through and concussing and displacing the liquid in the body and and uh you know giving trauma to the to the body. Um and so with an arrow, you're typically gonna be killing it by you're gonna be killing by having something bleed out.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:36

Fuck. I am an idiot. I'm on Google Images looking at images of the res the Glenn reservoir or whatever. Uh-huh. And I was like, word for term for the shock. Uh it's hydrostatic shock.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:51

Hydrostatic shock, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:52

But I was like, term for some for blank shock regarding bullet wound, and then it just was a bunch of wounds of bullet wounds on Google Images, just like lost my legs. Yeah, hydrostatic shock is like a lot of the time is what will kill.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:03

It's displacing water fast in your body. Yeah. And so so anyway, so that and so then the second piece of that being um also penetration. Bullet, you know, a 30 out 6 is gonna blow right through the the shoulder, all the way through the animal. But with that arrow, you gotta be back behind the shoulder bone and and sneaking it into the lungs and hopefully the heart. But if you're too far back, then you're in the guts.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

So well, that was kind of like I was wondering too of like it could you because I've I know hunters have, I don't know if it's necessarily the ethical thing, but like from a top-down angle from a tree stand shot through the the spinal cord of an animal to where the heart would be. You can't like done that shot because they knew the hydrostatic shock would probably still stop the animal's heart even if they miss a little bit. But you're also like you're severing the spine so it's not running off. And you could easily finish it with a second shot. Whereas like I was wondering, like, I mean, I've seen the gelatin stuff of like broadhead arrows easily going through a human spinal cord in a gelatin test, right? Yep. But I just was like, I don't know if they'd go through, you know, uh a land mammal, like a deer or elk in like their kind of you know, titanium spinal cord.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:21

It it depends on your arrow weight and a couple things, but uh the typically you're not gonna get a pass through, and or like for that type of shot, you really need to be up a lot higher versus just like he was just a little elevated where you couldn't get that shot down on him. But that elk blew out as a no-go. No-go wandered off into the woods, the sun went down. Was that what day was that for you guys? Day one of hunting. No way. So, like, so there was night one, night, yeah. So day one, it was a great day one to leave me on the hook. It was just like, oh my gosh, we're gonna make this happen. So then day two, we go on a big walkabout again because we want to get out of our little valley. Um, because there were multiple bulls that were about three to five hundred yards away from us, bugling and talking to us all day, but they were across that creek. So we couldn't go like try to we couldn't cross the creek and try to go get them.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:10

Um, either out of our unit. So we went on another walkabout. We saw uh we blew out a herd of six of them and and uh six cows and a bull, um, just uh, you know, tromping through the forest. And then that night we come back down and we get set up again, and so we get my brother-in-law in like the same spot. We're like, he didn't the elk didn't run away crazy fast, you know. So we'll see if he's blown out or not, if he's coming back to see if he it's a long shot because we disturbed him, but he didn't run out of there like a bat out of hell. So we get him set up down in that tree, and then a I'm sitting back, and another uh bull comes out down valley from him about 300 yards down from him. But the trees he's in, he can't really put a stock on it. So I'm back in the tree line. I book it down there, and this elk is just wallowing in the mud. He's just he's having a good old day. This elk was so happy. He was bucking, kicking, running around, rolling on his back, super happy, sprinting back and forth. And so then I get in these trees, and I'm and I I'm about 200 yards away from him still, and I thought that he had left because he bolted off really fast, but he and so I give a cow call and a bugle, and then I see him that he's that he hadn't blown out, he was actually down in the creek. And so then I I move down through the trees, checking my wind the whole way, wind's in my face, we're doing good, it's perfect. And I do another cow call, and I sit and wait for a second, don't see anything, and I and I need to push up a little further to get in a good spot where I'll have a have a lane to shoot in the trees I'm in. And as I'm pushing up, I I see his antlers, but still kind of far off, just down in the creek. So I I get down in these trees and I'm check my wind, we're still good, and then I hit another cow call, and then I wait just a sec just a little bit, a little bit of time, and I peek out to see. I'm like, all right, let's see if he's coming. He he had already came. He was 40 yards from me. He didn't see me, so I sneak back down in, pull an arrow, knock the arrow, and I'm getting ready to just wait and have him keep walking up. And uh, it's kind of the same game plan. He's coming on front to me. I'm hoping he's gonna come up in this opening in the trees. And as I knock my arrow, I grab my wind one more time and check my wind with my little puffer. And as it goes up, like the this these it's basically like you know, talcum powder in a bottle. So I squeeze it, it goes up, and it's going the right way, and then it just starts going the wrong way, right down to him, and he just stops in his tracks at about about 35 yards at this point, and he just bolts out of there.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:11

What are what are the are there scent laws in Colorado about like scents you can use to cover yourself for certain game? You you're allowed to.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:20

You can use scents to cover yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:21

It just But is it like what's the line between that and then like quote unquote baiting? Like if I cover myself in cow piss.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:28

No, you can you can do it. That's it's not technically baiting in that sense, and so you can do it just with elk. Honestly, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:36

They just if I cover myself in elk cow piss, yeah, it doesn't want to come over and see that I'm a beautiful. There's actually there are warnings.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:45

There are warnings on the bottle that are like do not apply on your body, you know. This elk will rut you. Yeah, uh rut enough elk it could happen. But um, and so it it can work, but it usually even that scent cover stuff, or even like scent, you you have a special like scent-free, not just scent free detergent, but like sent-away detergent stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:05

It kind of works, but I've always heard that the best way to really pull coyotes in because coyotes are so smart out here in Colorado and know exactly the boundary lines pretty much of like private land versus public land, that like the best way to really get coyotes is to use piss and like whether it's your own dog's piss or something, like just get like pour piss out there and they'll come looking for it.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:28

It can definitely help attract stuff in, and with other species it works well, but with elk in particular, it's just not a big part of the game. It's like if the wind, the wind is king, and if it's blowing the right way for you, you're good. If it's blowing the wrong way, it's game over.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:46

And so wind shifted, game over. We and so that elk went off into the woods, and we uh for the next couple days it was raining and we hiked out of there. We saw some elk on our way out, but they were they were pretty far away and they were booking it out of there, and uh we got out of there, and so we didn't get an elk.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:07

But you guys had a good time cuddling in the tent, didn't we?

SPEAKER_05 1:26:09

We did a good time in the cuddling the tent. I shot a grouse. That was pretty fun. Shot a grouse, we cut it up, ate that thing out there, had a meal, made a stew. Um, then we uh we got home and uh the next morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:22

Yeah, dude, you were sick. I remember you got so sick.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:25

I farted in bed. But but it wasn't a fart.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:29

No way.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:30

You actually shit the bed? I did, and I was like, oh no. Because here's the deal we'd been we'd been drinking from that creek all week. Yeah, we've been filtering our water, but sometimes you mess up a little and the filter doesn't work, or something happens. I'm like, oh no. So then I go, like, you know, get cleaned up, or maybe it's a one-off. It wasn't, comes back around with a vengeance, and it's just no effort, no, no, no bearing down, no controlling. No nothing. And it's just it's coming out, it's free-flowing. Oh man. I'm like, I don't know what I have, and uh, I was prepping myself for Jardia, the long week of Jardia, and day two of that, I was just I I already told you, but I was hugging the PD light bottle in the shower and waffle stomping to save my life, too. So gross. There was there was no reason to get out of the shower. Yeah, you'd get out of the shower, have to go again, get back in the shower. Oh my gosh. So do God bless Mace Windu. Yeah, luckily it only held out for only held out for about two and a half days. It went away. Did you actually have to get new sheets? No, it you kept it in your trousers. It stayed contained, luckily. But uh, yeah, so that's crazy, man. It happens. That's nice. It happens to me more often than others. It's true, it does. But um uh my brother-in-law got a little bit of it too, whatever it was, it passed quicker for him. But yeah. So there's the that's the elk hunting for this year. Dude. So now once again, how long is rifle season?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:04

Because I know a lot of guys who've got rifle tags and they were on private land for early rifle, but I just but none of them got anything yet.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:11

So there's a couple different types of rifle tags here. Typically, you have four seasons, um, and they're each about basically seven to ten days long. Okay, got it. So um it starts with you have archery and your archery tag you have for a whole month.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:28

And then in the middle that's muzzle loader for about two weeks. Then there's a little break, and then first, second, third, fourth rifle. And so I do, I there's still hope for I have a buck tag for rifle. Nice. And my brother-in-law informed me today that the unit I got it for has an 87% success rate. No way. Which I'll tell you, four success rates, like a good elk unit is like 30% success rate. Wow. So if that's huge, I'm excited for the possibilities. Yeah. I'm also I'm I have a deep fear of being further shamed. Yeah. Because if I go into this good of a place, this good of a place, and I can't make it happen. What's that say? It actually it's honestly. I hate it so much, dude. It it it tears at my manhood. I've gotta kill something. I'm still in the bloodlust phase. At this point in my life, most guys who've hunted this long, you're supposed to go through the phases where it's like early on, it's just like you just and you you're excited, you just you just want to kill something, just kill it, you know, and then then you then you get then there then you kind of get you've you've got some under your belt, now you're kind of more appreciating the nature more, and you really respect the animal and you want to, you know, uh uh preserve the habitat, respect the animal, and and maybe, you know, be selective even about what you kill, because maybe you can take a more mature bull out of the herd, you know, that that's already, you know, been able to um have progeny and so it's it's spread its genes and now younger bulls can come in. You're thinking more like that. And then you as a you get to the next stage where you're like, you know what? I'm I'm I'm fine if I just take a picture of it, maybe. I love getting out there. I want to be around the animal so much. I just you know, if you these kind of the stages of it. Yeah. And I'm just stuck back in this. I I dude, I'm gonna I'm just gonna I'm just gonna kill that thing. Yeah, and because I gotta have to I have to prove to myself and those around me that I am I'm a man, damn it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:29

I get you. I get you.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:31

So we'll see. It'll be it'll be wounding to the ego if we can't make it happen at the 87% success rate unit. So that's what we shall see. That's coming up uh beginning in November. It's gonna be a cold hunt.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:44

I was gonna say that's a cold, cold hunt, man.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:46

It's gonna be cold.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:47

I was really flattered. My father-in-law invited me to come with him next year. Oh, yeah? And like, not just him, but like his group.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:53

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:54

So I'm like, all right, I think I'm gonna do it. I think I'll go my first one. I might not even like I mean, I'll try to like poll for something for that unit, but even if I don't, I'm just stuck to like going. Be a part of it. Definitely. It's awesome. It's never never been on a hunt like that. Like only thing I've ever hunted is small game. So but yeah, it'll be I I think you know, even though you didn't get anything, man, that's still like a cool thrilling trip.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:21

It was. It was the closest we've gotten. It was right there. It was at our fingertips. But uh now we gotta wait another 52 weeks, you know, to get a chance at it.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:31

Well, you know, I'm really happy that we both enjoyed our walk in the woods, walk in nature. Oh yeah. Um you know, I hope people listen to this, and even if like they don't care too much about like the specific hunting experiences or the specific trail experiences in National Parks that it gives them at least the yearning to go out and do it. So um with that, want to say again, thanks again for joining us. Hope that you are enjoying this fall season and getting out there and doing fun things, seeing the the colors, uh, going tree peeping, whatever you want to do. Um but get out there and spend some time, get off social media, get off get away from the news, and enjoy uh time with family um and a little bit of isolation in the in the wilderness. Uh but with that, thanks for Pat, you got anything for the kin?

SPEAKER_05 1:32:23

Till next time.