The Circular Future - A Quantum Lifecycle Partners podcast

33. Measuring Circularity Beyond Carbon

• Quantum Lifecycle Partners • Season 1 • Episode 33

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What does it take to measure circularity and improve our global sustainability efforts? In this episode, we speak with Heidi Frasure, head of Sustainability at Green Standards, who shares actionable insights into her company's pioneering circular business model. Learn how Green Standards sustainably manages decommissioned office materials on a global scale and the significant role of systems thinking and design thinking in addressing environmental and social impacts in procurement and workplaces.

Discover why focusing solely on carbon emissions is not enough and how avoiding "carbon tunnel vision" can lead to more comprehensive and effective sustainability strategies. We uncover the underappreciated impact of interior furnishings on a building's carbon footprint, and examine the unique measures Green Standards uses to track the community benefits of repurposed office assets, including in-kind donations and beneficiary stories. Transparency is key, as we discuss how clients utilize data for impact reporting, marketing, and enhancing employee engagement and retention.

Finally, we highlight the importance of an iterative approach within systems thinking, using practical tools like Excel for small organizations and emphasizing the need for action-oriented strategies. Explore the ethical dimensions of supply chains and the human element in circularity, focusing on fair practices and employee treatment. Join us as we call on leaders to drive sustainability initiatives within their companies, promoting collaboration and smart policy to create truly circular workplaces.


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Want to be a guest on The Circular Future podcast? Email Sanjay Trivedi at strivedi@quantumlifecycle.com


Stephanie McLarty:

The Circularity Gap Report recently concluded that the world became less circular in 2023, down to only 7.2% from the 2018 baseline of 9.1%. This begs a lot of questions, firstly, on how we all measure circularity and, secondly, how do we increase those numbers? On how we all measure circularity and, secondly, how do we increase those numbers. Welcome to the circular future your access to thought leaders and innovations to help you be a business sustainability champion, even if it's not your core job. I'm your host. Stephanie McLarty, head of Sustainability at Quantum Lifecycle Partners.

Stephanie McLarty:

Hey, nothing like starting off with some dismal news, but, as legend Peter Drucker said, you can't manage what you can't measure. And some positive news in all of this. That same report said the circular economy has reached mega trend status, with three times the volume of discussions, debates and articles over the same period. With me to understand how we can all measure circularity and take meaningful action is Heidi Fraser, head of Sustainability at Green Standards, a sustainable office decommissioning company. Heidi has worked in sustainability for over 17 years, including seven years of pioneering work as a circular economy leader for the world's largest office furniture manufacturer, steelcase. Welcome to the podcast, heidi.

Heidi Frasure:

Hi, stephanie, super excited to be here with you today.

Stephanie McLarty:

I'm super excited that you're here, Heidi, Now. We always start off by taking a peek into your world. So, Heidi, what would be three things that the world wouldn't know about Green Standards?

Heidi Frasure:

Yeah. So I guess maybe the first one is that we are a circular business model. So by our very nature of what we do, we're helping to recirculate furniture, fixtures, all of the interiors inside the building. We usually say, if you dump a building out and shake it, we help manage all the stuff that comes out of that building in an ethical and sustainable way Finding reuse, relocation, donation partners and recycling partners to keep those materials out of landfill. And so I think that'd be the first one that we exist as a circular business model, and we've been around for 15 years. We're not new to this game.

Heidi Frasure:

Second one, I think, is that this work is not easy. It's very challenging, but no one quite does it the way that we do, because we help find end-to-end processes and services for the client. So we're actually connecting all of those assets to an end user, either through donation pathway, a reuse pathway or recycling pathway. And so we're seeing it through to from inception to completion, which I think makes us unique. And so we're seeing it through to from inception to completion, which I think makes us unique. And then we're able to give clients back reporting, so high level reporting on landfill diversion, carbon saved and in-kind donation dollars. And then I think the third piece is that we're global. So again, I think, from a circular business model, it's really rare to find circular businesses or circular models at scale and we are doing this work at scale on a global level. And so I think that's probably the last piece.

Stephanie McLarty:

That kind of wraps that up appropriate that you yourselves work at that scale as well. Now, heidi, the more I've learned about your background, the more I've seen it's like your background has been a mirror of the whole industry itself. So can we first actually dive into that a little bit Like how did you get to where you are now?

Heidi Frasure:

Yeah, I have a really weird background and I guess that's for any listeners who you know don't have a traditional sustainability degree. I think you don't have to. I had a really fluid path. My background or my original study was in the sciences, earth sciences, watershed science to be specific. But yeah, I started my career really cleaning up messes from the past, so doing nuclear waste site cleanup and then oil and gas spill I worked on the largest oil spill onshore in US history and so cleaning up those messes and the waste so it's kind of like the end of life really was the beginning of my career.

Heidi Frasure:

I realized how important it was for businesses to do the right thing in the first place.

Heidi Frasure:

And those downstream costs are very expensive and it occurred to me as I was doing some of that cleanup work I was actually paying for some of those costs right in my tax dollars.

Heidi Frasure:

So I think it just really occurred to me that if I could get into businesses and help kind of corrupt from within for the good and help shift their thinking to start doing the right thing now, it can really help improve that downstream process.

Heidi Frasure:

And so I started working on the business side of things, spent seven years of my career doing circular economy work at Steelcase, where it was all the way from the design of products through their production process, all the way to end of life, helping to make those processes more circular. And I really got engaged with Green Standards back in 2020 when clients needed end of life solutions and at the time we didn't have a solution provider for that and so built up a relationship with Green Standards and it was really kind of an easy transition to kind of come on board with them, because at Green Standards what's good for our business is innately good for the environment and for our local communities, and so it's been really fun to be on this side of things. I've built my career off of doing what's right and now I'm working for a company where it's just the right thing to do.

Stephanie McLarty:

So I love that you've built your career off of doing what's right, and today we're going to talk about measuring circularity and how to take action against that, and you mentioned in the earlier part of your career around cleaning up messes, so I think there's sometimes a misconception around doing the right thing can often be costly, so let's talk about financial measures. Can often be costly. So let's talk about financial measures. What are some of the costs associated with?

Heidi Frasure:

perhaps doing the wrong thing. Yeah, so there's a lot of costs, right? So there I think, what in our industry? Oftentimes when a client is going through a fit out or a strip out meaning they're either putting interiors in a building or they're stripping those interiors out of the building there's waste associated with that. There's also labor and logistics costs associated with that. Those materials have to either be pulled out or stripped out, and so that all has a cost associated with it. We've actually just recently run some numbers to see you know what would our costs be in comparison to and we didn't even use worst case scenario, which would be going to landfill we used a better case scenario of a client potentially using a brokerage to sell the best quality products that still have value, and it was still 10% less to use our services. So I think, ultimately, customers don't have a really good understanding what that strip out phase looks like, and so they often just assume that it's very expensive to do the right thing and assume that landfill is cheaper. But you know, as disposal costs rise, that's not always going to be the case, and I think we've seen firsthand that that's not the case for clients. I think that you know.

Heidi Frasure:

To your second question what other measures? There's social and there's environmental costs that should always be considered. I don't think return on investment equations should only be focused on financials. I think they also have to consider what those social and environmental impacts are, and I know that can be challenging to do, but there's all sorts of data now on the cost of carbon that could be used and leveraged and there's also, you know, your local community impacts that you should consider. I know, historically speaking, a lot of the waste sites that I was doing cleanup work for were actual landfills where they had leakage leachate. So going to landfill isn't necessarily the most environmental from a long term perspective. A lot of times those landfills have long term impacts and costs associated with them.

Stephanie McLarty:

Absolutely, and we see that with electronics as well. So I wanted to ask you a bit more about carbon, specifically, because I feel like a lot of companies focus on carbon and sometimes focus only on carbon, given it's the measure of our time, it seems. But there can be a bit of a danger in just looking at carbon. Walk us through that. What are some of the downsides of only focusing on carbon?

Heidi Frasure:

Yeah, maybe the easiest way to kind of look at this is if you're only looking at end of life and you're using, let's say, the warm emissions factors which are widely used for end of life disposal carbon emissions calculations, and if you just look at aluminum, you can really see this kind of shine through where, if you're only using that lens, carbon as the measure for aluminum, you might make the wrong decision and put it in landfill, because the emissions factor to going to landfill for aluminum is actually almost 200% less than if you're going to recycling, and so that's kind of mind-boggling right, because we for aluminum is actually almost 200% less than if you're going to recycling, and so that's kind of mind boggling right, because we know aluminum is highly recyclable. In fact it can have 95% less embodied carbon emissions to use recycled aluminum than versus virgin, and so we know that it's the right thing to do to recycle aluminum. But if you're only looking through a carbon lens and you're only looking at end of life, you might make that wrong decision. So I think it's just important to kind of take a step back and understand that what we're talking about here is systems work. It requires systems thinking and design thinking. It requires iterative approaches and sometimes, to just oversimplify it, it requires common sense.

Heidi Frasure:

I think to take a step back and just look at things from a common sense perspective is usually the best approach. In my past I liked, looking at material flow analyses to say, okay, what is actually happening here From a procurement perspective? What are our procurement people doing? How are they sourcing these materials? What are those social and environmental impacts? What are the costs? Are there any cost savings? And then you can kind of go through that entire flow, process flow and see opportunities for improvement in each one of those phases. And it should be fairly common sense, Like it should be fairly easy to do that, and I think that's probably a better approach. I think carbon is absolutely important and it's not going away and I'm not saying that it's bad. I think it's great that we actually have a measure, but I think it can't be the only measure, because it can potentially push us down wrong pathways if we're only looking at it through that lens.

Stephanie McLarty:

I heard the term carbon tunnel vision, where you basically put blinders on like a horse and you look only at this factor of carbon. But how limiting it can be when there's so many other aspects, especially when we talk about circularity. And I want to get into an example of this because I feel it makes it more real when you can think about a tangible example of this. Because I feel it makes it more real when you can think about a tangible example, and I know that at Green Standards you focus on circular workplaces and specifically helping around the decommissioning and shaking out the contents of an office during a move or a major change. So if you focus on furniture and fixtures, let's start with carbon. How much do furniture and fixtures contribute? Let's start with carbon. How much do furniture and fixtures contribute from a carbon perspective? So super good question.

Heidi Frasure:

There's not a lot of research on this.

Heidi Frasure:

There's a ton of research on construction and demolition waste and the emissions associated with that, and we know the built environment accounts for 40% of global emissions, so we know it has a huge impact.

Heidi Frasure:

But there's not a ton of studies full lifecycle analysis of the building and the interiors of the building until recently. And so there's actually a study that hasn't been published yet but by Brightworks that I'm really excited about, that is showing, you know, the interiors of an office building actually have a large embodied carbon footprint, and it's estimating the interiors from furniture and that includes, like wall coverings, flooring, ceiling, tiles, all of the interiors. It almost accounts for 50% of the embodied carbon of that building. So that's an important factor, I think, to consider, and as we get more and more data like that, we might be able to kind of reframe some of our thinking around the interior waste. Right now, I think a lot of times, like I said, in those strip out phases, the waste from the strip out is an untracked, unmeasured and unseen issue, and so I think I'm excited about more studies, more data coming out where it can kind of help educate everyone on hey, all of this has an impact and it should be considered in your circular strategies.

Stephanie McLarty:

So what are some of the other measures beyond carbon that you would measure at Green Standards in the work that you do and in terms of circular workplaces as a whole?

Heidi Frasure:

Yeah, so we would measure. You know the amount of equipment coming out, and so we could do that by headcount. We also measure in-kind donation dollars. So we are benefiting with our clients, local community partners, on a daily basis, so making sure that those assets that are being stripped out of that building have a second life, and that might be with someone in a local community, a nonprofit, a school, who otherwise wouldn't have access to those high-end assets like steel, case, furniture, and so you're giving them equitable access. But then you're also giving them the opportunity to not have to go and fundraise to outfit their offices or outfit their departments, and so it allows them to focus on their true work and their true calling.

Heidi Frasure:

So one of the measures for that we use is the beneficiary stories. I think that's a really powerful tool. So it's not just the in-kind donation dollars, it's also telling their stories. We just recently had a really cool story where it's three screen touchscreens that were coming out of a automotive dealership that were being used for the dealership are now being used in a local community, and one of them went to a food bank. So if you think about it like that, one screen is now going to impact thousands of lives and help feed food insecure communities. So there's a ton of impact there that we help share that story. So that's very important. And then the other side of things is that carbon savings, carbon avoided as well. So there's lots of measures there. We also provide clients back with line of sight transparency, which I think is very important for customers. They want to know that what we're doing, what we're saying we're doing, we're actually doing, and so there's this transparency transfer as well.

Stephanie McLarty:

And what are you seeing clients do with this data?

Heidi Frasure:

So I think everyone is kind of obsessed with data right now and in a lot of ways it's important right, because now they can share that story, so they have their own impact reporting, their own marketing and tools. And then even internally with a lot of employees employees care about this stuff stories with employees can help with employee retention, overall employee buy-in, to let them know that you're doing the right thing and you're impacting local communities in a positive way. So these stories can be shared in multiple ways and multiple fronts and have long-term impact.

Stephanie McLarty:

That's amazing. Yeah, we're working on our impact report right now for this past year, so I wanted to take a step back and think a little bit about what we do with this data and really how it can help us to drive action and meaningful action, and especially in terms of circularity. We heard off the top that circularity as a whole, in terms of where we're at as a planet, is quite low. So how do we take this data and then take meaningful action? And I know, especially in terms of green standards, your expertise is around circular workplaces. So how do we actually then increase our circularity numbers using this data?

Heidi Frasure:

So I think I go back to you know, let's not forget about the simple solutions and the common sense, right?

Heidi Frasure:

So let's not get so caught up in analysis, paralysis of the data that we're not actually taking action and are shining lights on impact reports. So now we have access as consumers, to all of the large major corporations data and we can see are they doing good, are they doing bad and, unfortunately, a lot of times you see in those impact reports it's actually going in the wrong direction, right, they're not making progress and, in fact, most of them are increasing emissions somehow. So I think it's less about the data and it's more about the action and how to take meaningful action. And in my perspective, I almost wonder if we just maybe are focusing too much on the shiny things and we need to focus more on simpler solutions. I really feel like it's going to be the practical and simple solutions that get us out of this mess and that's where I think we need to kind of be focusing our energy on and not being afraid to do the right thing.

Stephanie McLarty:

Right. Take action, take meaningful action, and failure is part of this. We talked a few episodes.

Heidi Frasure:

Iterative approach is part of systems thinking, like if you make a mistake, you iterate on that mistake, change, adapt and move on.

Stephanie McLarty:

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, fail fast, fail forward, fail forward yeah, lots of, lots of expressions we could use here, but I completely agree. Okay, heidi, I want to get into our how-to section and we used to call this our rapid-fire how-to section and then I realized nobody answers any of the how-to questions in a short, succinct way. So we're just going to get rid of that rapid-fire and call it our how-to section going forward. So, heidi, first of all, we capture all this data, but how to keep track of these various measures? Any advice? But how to keep track of these various measures? Any advice on how to keep track of the measures?

Heidi Frasure:

Yeah. So there's so many tools out there now, even from like. If you're a small organization and you don't have money for the big, expensive fancy tools, you could do it in Excel, and I think a lot of companies have started with Excel tools. Right? Just spreadsheets on tracking and measuring. I think before you start doing that though it might be good to understand again take a step back, do a material flow analysis and understand what should you be tracking?

Heidi Frasure:

Don't just track data to track data like what's important to your clients, what's important to your business and your mission critical, what are the measures that you should be tracking? You can do things like waste audits to try to figure out where are your big heavy hitters in your waste stream. It may surprise you, I know when I was working at Steelcase, a lot of our waste stream was actually in the form of wooden steel not necessarily trash going to landfill, right and so sometimes doing those waste audits can be really insightful and point you in the right direction of what you should be tracking. And then again, there's tons of tools. You can get lost in the sauce on how many tools are out there, but there's a lot, and so you have to figure out which one best meets your needs. But don't get so stuck in that assessment. You could easily do the same simple assessments in Excel.

Stephanie McLarty:

Yeah, I think that's great advice, and if you're starting in Excel, it's to what you were saying earlier Keep it simple and focus on action. Okay, great Now. The Circularity Gap Report talks about the human element in terms of circularity and how we can't forget about that, of circularity and how we can't forget about that. So, heidi, how to not forget about the human well-being and human needs in all of this.

Heidi Frasure:

Yeah, I really like kind of where the European Union's going on supply chain assessment, because I think that's going to help shift thinking a little bit more around. You know, like I was saying, what is your procurement team doing? What are their policies look like from a sourcing perspective? Are they, are you doing any supply chain review to see if there's slave labor or any bad practices happening in your supply chain? If not, you should be right. And so I think there's all sorts of social pieces of the puzzle that need to be focused on.

Heidi Frasure:

It's not just about carbon, it's not just about data. It's about your entire supply chain, your entire process and your manufacturing process. Are the employees being treated well? Are they being exposed to nasty chemicals? What is happening in your actual production process? Are you aware of it, first of all? So I think there's a lot of assessments, internal assessments that should be done and again, don't try to overcomplicate it. You can do a simple material flow assessment to say, okay, here's all the areas we should be at least doing an audit on to see what's happening, so that we can maybe adjust wherever we see problems. Or maybe it's a different supplier that you need to be working with. There's all sorts of changes that could occur from that audit process throughout your material flows.

Stephanie McLarty:

Great advice. And, lastly, how to create a circular workplace.

Heidi Frasure:

I think you know this is kind of the challenge of our time, right, and I always look at my work as this is life work. This isn't. There's no timeframes associated with doing some of this work and, from a circular workplace perspective, it's going to require a system. It's going to require partnerships from everyone. It's going to require all of the original equipment manufacturers working together with partners like us who can help with end of life, and like you who can help with end of life. It's a policy, smart policy that actually moves the needle and helps incentivize doing the right thing. So it's not this cost breakdown for clients. So I think it's everyone working together towards a common goal, and that's our hope too. We have the Circular Workplace Coalition, where we are trying to pull in everyone from different industries to really build out what does a circular workplace look like and how can we all be actually acting on that and moving that needle together.

Stephanie McLarty:

Yeah, and I know Quantum is a part of that coalition and coming at it from the angle of electronics reuse and recycling, and you also produce a report every year, and so we'll link that report in our show notes as well.

Heidi Frasure:

Awesome. Yeah, we have one coming this fall too, which I'm pretty excited about. It's going to kind of focus a little bit more on the people and how humans and how everyone kind of relates and how we can help move the needle in our roles and each individual role Amazing and that speaks to the whole human element in all of this, which we can't forget.

Stephanie McLarty:

Heidi, this has been really interesting. I know a couple of things that have stuck with me is the don't get stuck in analysis, paralysis and really keeping things simple. What would be one piece of advice that you'd leave our listeners with in terms of this whole space and wrapping your heads around measuring circularity but also, and more importantly, taking action towards circularity?

Heidi Frasure:

Yeah, I think action is huge right. So I was lucky enough to hear Sarah Neff speak from Land Lease and I loved what she had to say. So I'm shamelessly stealing that, and it's don't be afraid to do the right thing. Even if the carbon doesn't measure up, or even if there's maybe not a direct financial return on investment, but there's a social or environmental return on investment. Don't be afraid to do the right thing. And you don't have to be in a sustainability role to have an impact here. Anyone in any role. If you see an opportunity to improve a process that directly relates to your role, make that change. We all can be agents of change within our organizations and it's going to take everyone in every role to really make this change happen.

Stephanie McLarty:

Yes, be an agent of change, and a lot of our listeners are business managers or leaders who are not in formal sustainability roles but who are tasked with sustainability initiatives in one way or another. So I think that's perfect advice Be an agent of change. Maybe I'll take that one, heidi of yours. Thank you so much, heidi. I really appreciate having you here on the podcast and sharing your wisdom.

Heidi Frasure:

Thank you so much for having me. We really appreciate the collaboration that you've had with us as well. Yeah, awesome.

Stephanie McLarty:

And remember if you have old or redundant electronics, we'd love to chat. Head on over to quantumlifecyclecom and contact us. This is a Quantum Lifecycle podcast and the producer is Sanjay Trivedi. Thank you for being a Circular Future Champion in your company and beyond. Logging off.

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Stephanie McLarty

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Sanjay Trivedi

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