The Circular Future - A Quantum Lifecycle Partners podcast
Welcome to the Circular Future – a podcast that facetimes you with the challenges of e-waste and its impact on the world. Join Stephanie McLarty, Head of Sustainability at Quantum Lifecycle Partners, as she interviews industry thinktanks who share their insights on the trends in reuse and recycling of technology. This podcast is for you if you are responsible for managing your company’s electronics or are simply curious about all things e-waste, sustainability, carbon emissions, data security and more. Each episode finishes with actionable advice for business managers and leaders to do their part in helping build a circular future.
The Circular Future - A Quantum Lifecycle Partners podcast
35. The Environmental Impact of Office Furniture
Can remanufacturing reshape the future of office furniture? Join us on this episode of the Circular Future as we uncover the innovative world of sustainable office furniture with Doug Pilgrim, the Sustainability Advocate for Davies Office. With a fascinating backstory dating back over 70 years, Davies Office has evolved from a humble wood furniture refinisher to the largest furniture remanufacturer in the United States. Doug distinguishes between remanufacturing and refurbishing, and explains how modern trends like lower-height panels for collaboration and natural light have spurred significant changes. Discover how remanufacturing not only diverts waste from landfills but also offers substantial cost savings, amid a growing customer demand for sustainable solutions.
Takeaways
- Remanufacturing is the process of bringing old furniture to like-new condition, while refurbishing involves making minor repairs and improvements.
- Office furniture has a significant environmental footprint, with millions of tons ending up in landfills each year.
- More manufacturers need to embrace remanufacturing and collaborate with remanufacturers to find solutions for old furniture.
- To get senior leaders on board with remanufacturing, emphasize the cost savings, sustainability benefits, and positive impact on the company's environmental goals.
- Individuals can contribute to the circular economy by prioritizing reuse and prolonging the life of products.
Thanks for listening!
If you like our podcasts, please leave us a review on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts from.
Want to be a guest on The Circular Future podcast? Email Sanjay Trivedi at strivedi@quantumlifecycle.com
- Listen on: https://quantumlifecycle.com/podcast
- Follow us on LinkedIn | Facebook
Remanufacturing is an important element of the circular economy, but what actually is remanufacturing and how can it work in practice? Welcome to the Circular Future, your access to thought leaders and innovations to help you be a business sustainability champion, even if it's not your core job. I'm your host. Stephanie McLarty, Head of Sustainability at Quantum Lifecycle Partners. Remanufacturing is a topic that I'm personally really curious about. It comes up from time to time here at Quantum as we reuse, remarket, refurbish, recycle electronics basically most re-words, but not remanufacturing. One area where remanufacturing is prevalent is in the office furniture space. So with me today is Doug Pilgrim, Sustainability Advocate for Davies Office, the largest furniture remanufacturer in the United States. Doug has over 30 years in the office furniture industry and is both a lead and well-accredited professional. Welcome to the podcast, Doug Sure, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:We are happy that you're here and diving into this very interesting topic. First of all, though, let's start as we always do, Doug. What would be three things that the world should know about Davey's office?
Speaker 1:Well, you asked me that and these questions beforehand and I have to say you know it takes me all over the place because there are so many things that we do that we are unique. But I guess the first thing is is that we just didn't jump into the space of the circular economy and remanufacturing. This is something that Davies has evolved into. They've been around for over 70 years and when the company started they were a wood furniture refinisher. Then, with the tank desks, the aircraft carrier desks, they basically had to learn how to electrostatic paint the vertical files and those desks when they were being reused again or being refurbished on site. Then, with the cube farm and with the systems furniture becoming a major player the used furniture then they had to learn how to paint the frames and put new textiles onto the panels. But, you know, since 2010, we really saw the shift. It's a fashion shift, obviously toward lower-height panels, smaller footprints of stations, and so they basically had to learn how to take those old stations and remanufacture those to new dimensions. So it was the fashion of the industry that pushed them into becoming a furniture remanufacturer. So I guess basically what I'm saying on that point is that we just didn't jump into this. We've evolved into this space.
Speaker 1:Another thing to know about Davies is that we're a woman-owned business. Evelyn Davies owns 51% of our company and we're very proud of that, but we're also for 49%. We're an employee-owned company, we're an ESOP, so 150 of us we all have a heart of skin in the game to make sure that our products are made to our standards and that our clients are happy with what we're doing. And then the next thing is that, as opposed to when you work with a major OEM, you'd be looking at opening up their binder and selecting from their menu and we are more or less an a la carte. We see a specification. We can manufacture the furniture. So I guess, right off the top. Those are the three things that probably people don't know about Davies. That helps them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fascinating and I like that a la carte analogy. So, Doug, let's get into this. What actually is remanufacturing? And I think that the one concept that it often can get confused with is, say, refurbishing. So what's the difference?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that goes back to the. You know the fashion of the industry. When we went from cube farms, from systems furniture. Fashion of the industry. When we went from, uh, cube farms, from systems furniture, we were driven into these smaller stations, lower height stations.
Speaker 1:You know, one of it was that uh, you know the quote and this is not me now, so there's no way but the trend was saying that millennials didn't want to be able to collaborate more and that that they needed the lower height. So there was more collaboration, more communication within the office space and at the same time, we had a major influence on the industry coming from LEED, where we wanted the lower height panels for more quality views, for more natural sunlight coming into the space, cut down on the use of lighting, and so those two trends drove the dimensions of the stations to be lower heights and we just basically had to evolve into that. We had to come up to an answer to that on how do we take our old stations and bring them around, one of the things that you know up until fairly recently I mean over the course of the company you know a lot of the trend on why people would work with Davies office and remanufacturing and refurbishing was pricing. What they wanted to see was I can't afford this new stuff, but I need to do something from an economical standpoint, so they came to us strictly from a pricing standpoint. But what we have seen, maybe very strongly in the last six years, is a lot of this is being driven from a sustainability standpoint.
Speaker 1:So what we offer the clients is. We'll come in and we'll take those old stations in the old Q farms and we give a value for that product that can then be applied towards the remanufactured portion of a project to lower its cost down. But what we're also doing is it's landfill diversion to lower its cost down. But what we're also doing is it's landfill diversion Because right now we're looking at the last number the EPA gave us was back in 2018. We're looking at 9.7 million tons worth of office furniture going to the landfill every year. So that's a staggering number from an environmental standpoint, but that's also a staggering number from a financial standpoint, when perfectly good furniture just doesn't meet the aesthetic or the trend of the moment. So we're able to give a value for that. Then we're looking at landfill diversion and that value can drive down the cost of a restack or furniture going forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's clearly a lot of benefits to remanufacturing and this whole approach of taking previous furniture and reimagining and rethinking and actually implementing that. I'm curious around can any type of office furniture be remanufactured? Like, if I think at Quantum and I think about all the electronics that we bring in and deciding whether they go through our ITAD or IT Asset Disposition Channel for remarketing and essentially reuse or our recycling channel? Is really around the market potential, Like is there someone out there that can use this and will buy this or get it through a donation? Is it the same in this space or do you basically remanufacture any office furniture?
Speaker 1:For us there has to be a market on the other side.
Speaker 1:So you know we work with all the major OEMs Steelcase, herman Miller, miller, noll Hayworth, ontario Technion that makes a great product to be remanufactured. So we work with all those majors only because number one is they overbuilt their product to begin with, so it allows us to remanufacture it. And we like to say, you know, we love the oems because they really the a grades, because they really overbuilt their product and I don't think the a grades have that kind of affection towards us because we can remanufacture the product to like new standards that can be used again. But there are some products that were value engineered to meet a price point right out of the gate and those really don't allow themselves to be remanufactured and at the same time, from a marketing standpoint, there's not a market for that product on the other side. So you know we have to be able to sell the product, you know, as it goes out. So you know we have one of our programs is a sustainable product exchange to the sustainable banking program. So this means that with the exchange we take the product in and we take that value and we apply it towards the remanufactured portion of the project in that program.
Speaker 1:We're not remanufacturing the client's furniture for them. We're giving, we're taking their value and applying it towards remanufactured furniture. So what we're doing here is that they're giving us raw materials but we already have raw materials so that there's no downtime for our customers in getting the product that they need. And then their product then goes to our storage and it can be used for future projects with other clients later on. So what that does from a business model, it makes us very sticky with our customers Now because they're sending us what they would normally have regarded as waste. We're giving them a positive value for that and then we're coming back in. So we've become a virtual warehouse almost kind of a magical virtual warehouse where they send us their old product that's not fitting the vision and they're getting back what they need that does fit. That's kind of neat from that standpoint.
Speaker 1:Also, what we have is a sustainable banking program. So what that means if they happen to be emptying out their warehouse it's a product that they're not using anymore, or there's a branch office that they're not working with anymore we can take that product in and that positive value can be on our books and then that value can be applied to a future project anywhere in the country. So now we basically have created these business models that really does motivate the customer to get involved with a circular economy with their furniture. It gives them motivation not to send it to landfill. And then on top of that, you know we've had life cycle assessments done on what we're doing. That shows the energy savings, co2 avoidance, the landfill avoidance on our projects, and those are hard metrics and we're able to give that to our customers on an ongoing basis. That goes right to their sustainability story. So they're saving money, they're getting out of the warehouse business and then they're getting these third-party verified metrics that can be used to put their sustainability report.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a fascinating little case study for your customers to show what they're doing for sustainability. Doug, can you speak to the environmental footprint of office furniture? This is clearly a big driver in terms of what you do is you're keeping product out of landfill. What is that actual impact of office furniture environmentally?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, as I said before, you know we're looking at and the EPA number goes back to 2018, because unfortunately that's the you know down here in the States that's the last time we had that number out there, but we know we're looking at 9.7 million tons worth of furniture going to the landfill.
Speaker 2:Every year.
Speaker 1:In the year 2018. Oh, okay, yeah, and that's almost like every year. But now we're on the backside of the pandemic here. So, you know, people coming back to work, we've got CFOs who are sitting back saying you know, we don't need as much real estate as we used to. There's, I guess, across the country you're looking at, you know, 30 to 20% vacancy rates right now. Yeah, that means 30 to 20% of the office furniture that's on that space is. You know, they have to come up with a solution for it, you know. So I mean, from that standpoint, it's a, you know it's a nightmare.
Speaker 1:But if we just do a comparison to what we're doing to a new manufacturer, if you compare like an LCA we did one back in 2016. We did one back in 2016. We have one that's being done right now to make it more current. But just based on that, if we just look at the global warming impact, at the materials and process and the energy, we sit on a 17%, 19% and 7% footprint respectively and that's not a reduction. I mean, that's the footprint. And right now.
Speaker 1:I know it's very vogue to talk about just the CO2 avoidance and global warming avoidance, but when you're looking at a life cycle and you go across the board. Now you're starting to look at ozone depletion and you're starting to look at soil pollution and water pollution. If you take a look at that broad scope of things, we sit on less than a 20% footprint compared to an original OEM in that analysis. So you know that's a staggering number. Now, the caveat here is you're always going to have that initial hit in the product to begin with, but there's no reason why office furniture can't be remanufactured once, and sometimes twice, to perpetuate its life, to try to keep it out of the landfill as much as possible and to cut down on the energy and pollution. That goes along with the manufacturing process and inclusion, that goes along with the manufacturing process.
Speaker 2:I'm curious if you're bringing the product back up to a like-new standard. Are there standards in the space to differentiate between companies like yours and just anybody doing?
Speaker 1:it. Well, there's a couple of things that we're doing, that we have third-party analysis on what we're up to. One is that lifecycle assessment that kind of gives an overview. One is that lifecycle assessment that kind of gives an overview. But we also work with the Business and Institutional Furniture Manufacturers Association and they have a BIFMA-level standard. This is the sustainability standard for new furniture and that's an on-site audit of what you're doing every three years and remotely every year. So we are BIFMO level two certified for nine different product lines from Steelcase and for Hayward, and so you know that for our customers, you know that's a very, very strong assurance that you know we're being manufactured and be recognized at the same level as a new furniture manufacturer. But there's also an ANSI standard out there and with that ANSI standard for remanufacturing you know that is that you have to manufacture, remanufacture your product to like new condition and so we can bring it to like new. We can actually go beyond that. We call it sometimes that we remanufacture better than new, and what we mean by that and that goes back to the a la carte aspect is that we can do things with the furniture that originally wasn't supposed to do.
Speaker 1:There was a project in Manhattan that was going on with Colgate, and the architect had a vision of space that they wanted to do and had nothing to do with remanufacturing, but they had a vision of what that they wanted to do and had nothing to do with remanufacturing, but they had a vision of what they wanted to do with the space.
Speaker 1:And they had gone to a major OEM I'll let them remain nameless and had gone to them and said you know, this is obviously what we need to do with our furniture. And the OEM said you know, we can't do that. We don't do that with furniture, right, because this is the way we do things. And so we came to them and I said no, we can do that. So we butted, we butted, veneering, uh, together, we put glass on the top that met at 90 degrees. Uh, we, we really went, went above and beyond everything on the project and we met the vision of space that the architect had and at the same time, it was a LEED, certified LEED goal. It was right on Park Ave, and so we were able to do things better than the original OEM could with their own furniture. So we made the furniture better than new.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. The 80s and 90s, with the old way that offices were, with the high cubicle walls, and really thinking about now, in modern offices, that everything's so much more collaborative, as you say, much lower, if there's even walls at all, and lots of glass and natural light. It makes a ton of sense that you're really fulfilling on that vision and taking this existing product that's already been manufacturing the resources have already gone into the commodities and the manufacturing of the product and you're just taking it to this new application. Which makes me think about something that we think about at Quantum.
Speaker 2:We have electronics that we market that are refurbished because they can be used again. There's still lots of life left in them. But sometimes we really have to encourage people and companies to overcome the mindset block that because something is not brand new, it is perhaps inferior, which we know is not the case. When we offer warranties and provide a lot of assurance that the product that you're getting is a great product and will last, is it the same for you? And how do you get people to really think differently around this whole concept of remanufacturing and that it is something to choose? You don't have to choose new, especially not all the time.
Speaker 1:It's an interesting one. So I've been in the industry obviously for quite a long time. I've been with Davies for 12 years and, as we have this conversation right now, I hope you're beginning to understand the difference between refurbishing and remanufacturing. But although we've had this conversation, if you go off and have this conversation with somebody else, you'll and remanufacturing. But although we've had this conversation, if you go off and have this conversation with somebody else, you'll say remanufacturing, but the person on the other side is hearing refurbishing and then when they have that conversation with somebody else, they're saying refurbishing and the next person is hearing use. So we always have to be constantly educating on what we're about and what we do. That differentiates itself from refurbishing and use. First of all, if a product can be refurbished, I'm all for it. I mean, that's going to be a great price point, right, and it's not going to land. If a product can be reused again, I'm all for that.
Speaker 1:Also, there's a large bank down in Dallas that we worked with and they wanted to bank all the stuff and they were going to come in there with New Herman Miller and it went over to the other side of town and they had this beautiful steel case answered there, and this happened right before the pandemic and it was beautiful furniture, as I termed it. It was museum quality. I went back into the customers and I said you know you're out of your mind to get rid of this furniture if you're going to be doing this here. I said you know you're out of your mind to get rid of this furniture. If you're going to be doing this here, let's see about reusing the furniture that you have and add to it to get that once again, that architect's vision of space they have for it.
Speaker 1:So in that circumstance we're able to show the customer how to reuse that product in a new application, which they weren't contemplating on doing at all. So basically, we avoided the manufacturing of new furniture. So that's all that. And then we were able to reuse the product again, which is probably one of the best things you can do and then salt into that remanufactured product. So that was a win-win for the customer. They saved an awful lot of money on a couple of projects in Dallas and Houston, but at the same time they avoided the landfill. They avoided all those environmental problems that go along with that, that's neat.
Speaker 2:Okay, doug, I want to get into our how-to section, and you've mentioned around manufacturers, and there are certain manufacturers that in some cases build such great quality product that they overbuild. But how to get more manufacturers on board with embracing remanufacturing?
Speaker 1:Well, all the major manufacturers are aware of it. They all had their toe in the water at one time. So Steelcase had a venture called Revest which was refurbishing back then. They tried it and they got out of it. Now, only they know for sure why they got out of it. They tried it and they got out of it. Now, only they know for sure why they got out of it.
Speaker 1:I'm of the opinion that they didn't want to compete against their own furniture. I thought that maybe they were stealing off one plate for going against the new furniture, which is a shame because it could have been a great price point arrangement. And I know that Miller had been involved with something like this, and also Steelcase excuse me, all Steel. But I think they're revisiting this now. A lot of the customers on the backside of the pandemic are going back to the OEMs and saying you know, you told us all about the great sustainability aspects of this furniture prior to the pandemic. Now that we're doing this restack, this hybrid office, why can't you help us out with our old furniture? So I think the motivation for the OEMs is going to be the pushback from their customers. That being said, it's going to be difficult for them. Because, if you remember, the traditional model in office furniture is that you have a manufacturer that goes to their regional sales of people, that then goes to localized dealerships, so it's a great downstream distribution network. But what happens when you try to reverse that? You know what's the motivation for the dealer salesperson, you know who may be on a commission basis to come in and get rid of that furniture and not sell the customer new. So that's an issue. You know.
Speaker 1:One of our strengths is we have a direct relationship with our customers. We basically our project managers, come in, we oversee the decommissioning of their furniture, we oversee the shipping of that product back to us. Our designers design the space, working with the end user or with interior designers and architects on the project. Then we are shipping and we're delivering and we're installing. So I know this is the farm table approach to office furniture. We are actively a partner with our customers. You get an awful lot of intermediates in the business model with the new OEMs between you and the people who are actually doing the furniture.
Speaker 1:So it's going to be difficult for them to reverse it. Now what they should be doing, and what I'm hoping they're doing, is they start to create partnerships and realize that we're all in this together, that we all have to come up with solutions together. It's a big tent and that remanufacturers and refurbishers can work with them to come up with solutions for the old furniture and get it back into play. Now there's organizations like Orange Box in the UK. They are working with independent manufacturers, refurbishers for their seating line and I've talked to some of the remanufacturers in the UK.
Speaker 1:It's a good program. When an old chair comes in, orange Box will supply them with parts and pieces that are necessary to refurbish and bring the chair back up to new standards. And then there's also Arendt, a Dutch company in the EU. Now they are embracing office space, office furniture furniture as a service. So they have programs where the furniture goes in, the clients can use it over the course of their lease and at the end of that, built into this program is that the furniture can come out. So I think those two programs and programs like it can work here in the States. It's just going to take some work to get it up and running.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some thought leadership, some collaboration. I love that point about we all have to work together towards the solution we're trying to do that too.
Speaker 1:We don't collaboration I love that point about we all have to work together towards the solution. We're trying to do that too. We don't necessarily feel that we have all the answers for our customers. We want to be a solutions provider and sometimes the solution is not working with Davis. So we are. And I know up in Ontario you have a great organization up there with Green Standard, and I think you've heard us speak with Green Standard in the past. You know, in another world we would almost think of ourselves as competitors in this space, but you know that Green Standard can come up with a great alternative for the reuse of furniture at the end of its life, of the customer, something that we can't provide, such as, you know, enabling a donation program, and that's not something we do but they do. And so what we have recognized is that we need to be collaborating with them at this area to come up with the ultimate solution for a circular economic growth.
Speaker 2:Now, Doug, I wanted to ask you one more how-to question, and you speak about motivations, and I love that. What are the motivations of manufacturers, for example, that you can tap into for this? Our listeners of this podcast a lot of them are business managers and leaders who are part of the decision making process for their companies, but they're not necessarily the sole decision maker and therefore they have to get the buy in from their senior leaders on various aspects. What would you say? How to get your senior leaders on board with remanufacturing, how to tap into their motivation?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know. As you're probably aware, sustainability within a major corporation has to be a top-down program. You know, if you're mid-management and you're trying to and your eyes are open and you realize what a solution this is in all environmental things Sometimes it's a hard push trying to get to work above to the powers above you and trying to get them motivated into the program. So when we facility managers love what we do, so when we facility managers love what we do, you know for us sometimes in the past what it was, it was you know we sold our products from. You know, try to get initiated from price point. Now that's easy to get a CFO and a CEO of a company on board. When you show that you know you're going to get the company out of the warehouse business and we're going to save them some money on the project. But with ESG this is a big driver right now and a lot of what we're doing really appeals to companies that are embracing ESG. So from that standpoint you basically come up with we're pursuing ESG as a company. This is a great part of it and I've seen this evolution.
Speaker 1:I worked on a project down in New Brunswick and I put in 50 stations of steel-based answer and I was all excited part of it, and I've seen this evolution. I worked on a project down in New Brunswick and they put in 50 stations of steel-based answer and I was all excited. I was with the facility manager and I'm jumping up and down. I said, oh, I can't wait till these employees know that this is remanufactured furniture. And she said you do not tell my employees anybody that this is remanufactured furniture. We don't want them to think that they're, you know, second-class citizens receiving, you know, something that's that's used. I mean this these stations were beautiful.
Speaker 1:You could never tell that they were remanufactured, so you know. So I was a little sad from that standpoint, uh. But uh, on the other side of that, not more than two weeks later, I was at con ed in manhattan and we worked on a project with them and they were so happy about it. They want to put a mural on the wall with all their sustainability savings and what they were doing and in that particular project, what they want, they want the employees to see all the great things they were doing and to celebrate that, because it was employee retention and it was employee traction to know that, you know, your company is in pursuit of sustainability. So, yeah, it's like and it's and that's.
Speaker 1:That was kind of for me, that's when I started to really see the ship. And then there was a major, major beverage company that we did a presentation for at our HQ in Albany and you know they wheeled me out in the 11th hour and I was doing my sustainability conversation and I had some management in the back of the room pointing at the watches, saying hurry up, and I clicked through and I clicked through and I showed the sustainability savings metrics that we gave one of our clients on their project and the woman that was there, said hold that frame right there. And she pointed to her whole team was there, said hold that frame right there. And she pointed to her whole team. She said see that frame. That's the reason why we're here today and I have to say at that point I felt such a validation in what we're doing and what I'm trying to do and get the word out that it was a great moment for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know what I just got goosebumps. So thank you for that. Yeah, so celebrate.
Speaker 1:So thank you for that, yeah, so celebrate Turn down your air conditioner.
Speaker 2:It's not because of that, doug. We've covered so much, and if there was one thing that you could leave listeners with one action to take a piece of advice, doug, what would that be?
Speaker 1:one action. To take a piece of advice, doug, what would that be? Reuse, don't throw it away, no matter what it is. Take a second look, whether it's your office furniture, whether it's the technology in your office, whatever. See if you can prolong the life of something or get something of a quality that's going to have a long shelf life, and try to keep it out of the landfill and have a small environment.
Speaker 2:Here, here. I couldn't have said it better. Thank you, Doug. This is really insightful and I appreciate you being here.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 2:And remember, if you're looking for a partner in electronics reuse and recycling, we'd love to chat Head on over to quantumlifecyclecom and contact us. This is a Quantum Lifecycle podcast and the producer is Sanjay Trivedi. Thank you for being a Circular Future Champion in your company and beyond. Logging off.
