Welcome to the Stay or Go podcast, where we're changing the dialogue around divorce so that no woman ever stays in her marriage out of fear. Get ready to dispel myths, learn life-changing tools, and build a solid foundation in yourself from which to make your decision. And now your host, me, Britta Joe. Hello, my lovelies. Welcome back this week to the podcast. As many of you can tell from the title, I am going to be discussing affairs again. And to help me with this topic, surprise, surprise, I have brought Joe on with me today for the first time to the podcast. So hi, Joe.
SPEAKER_00Hello. Hello, everybody.
SPEAKER_04So this weekend, um, I had a really awesome moment on Friday during one of my weather of the week calls in the community, where a woman who had just joined the community mentioned listening to the podcast from the beginning and had just reached the affairs episode. And in her instance, her husband is the one that's had the affair. And she was starting to share about how like this episode was not resonating for me. And as soon as she started sharing, I felt this like, ah, because I've known for a little while now. It's been one of the episodes that's been on my list that I wanted to reopen and come back to the topic of affairs, but be able to discuss it from a very different vantage point than the perspective I took when I did my two affairs episodes back in the summer of 2024. And so this weekend, um, that kind of popped in, came through. And Joe, as you know, I came to you and I was like, hey, I have this idea for an episode. It's important to me. I want to add a different perspective to this conversation. Because not only had this woman said this, but a while ago I'd seen a comment on my podcast over on the Apple Podcast site where another woman had also said, like, whoa, her affairs episode is very triggering if you are the one whose partner is the one that had the affair. And so I knew I wanted to talk about it, but I also felt like I just didn't have as much of a like depth and breadth of knowledge here. And thankfully, Joe, I was like, hey, babe, I feel like you would be like the perfect person for me to have just a very like open, more um nuanced conversation around this piece. And thankfully you said yes, correct?
SPEAKER_00I did. I did. I did.
SPEAKER_04And what ensued was like a day full of us outlining and brainstorming. Um, and now we're finally here getting ready to record for the first time. So I want to start off this episode by saying like huge thank you to Joe. Um very, very excited to have him here. This, I mean, honestly, babe, before this episode, I think I'd mentioned having you on the podcast before, but I'd never, it was not like established, it was not something we had talked about recently. This was um a really beautiful, just like intuitive hit that came through. So if all of you on the podcast are like, what? Wait, how? No prep for this at all. Yes, I agree. No prep for this at all. And we're just gonna go with it.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04So as you guys can tell from the title, pretty heavy title. Even as we were picking this title, I was like, Joe, um, I'm struggling with words like betrayal or fault. And, you know, as we discussed it, Joe was like, Yeah, I know those are some tough words, especially if you are the one that had the affair, but they're very accurate for how it feels when you are the person whose partner has had the affair. And so I think this is um, you know, and it's a good way to understand who this episode is written for. So one of the things we noticed as we were coming up with the outline around this episode is we took time. I literally made Joe sit and talk through my last two affair episodes. We had a good, like, yeah, a couple hours out in the sun where I just wanted to like, it's been a while since I listened to those episodes. And what came through really strongly was that those episodes Joe helped me see were written for a very, very specific type of affair. And how would you describe that type of affair, Joe?
SPEAKER_00I would describe them as you know, being on a deserter island. Right. And and there's nothing, there's no help, there's no water, there's no food, and um you know, sometimes you'll just you know, you will have to eat trash, or you will have to eat something that you will know is not good for you. Um and in those instances, you know, a cup of water is everything. You know Even if it's you know, even if it comes to you in like I don't know, something like a toilet bowl, you know, like something you would never ever drink out of. And it arrives full of water and you're dying of thirst, you know. I mean that's that's human nature to to to look for something that you are in desperate need of. Um no matter what it looks like. And I think I think that is you know, is something I've experienced and I know a lot of people have experienced.
SPEAKER_04I am obsessed with this analogy. We did not this is not an analogy we talked about. You just brought that up here in the episode. And yes, I think this imagery is perfect, and it's very important that as we start into this episode and we look back on those previous episodes, that those listening to those previous episodes understand that that's who those episodes are for. They are typically, when we were looking back over like those dynamics, they're for women that are more codependent. It doesn't even have to be women, right? I have also male listeners, but if you are the partner in the marriage that is more the codependent, you are giving a lot in the marriage. Your needs and wants don't really seem to matter. You're trained to just really like keep over functioning and being happy with what is. You're communicating or trying to communicate, but it's not really being heard by your partner or maybe being dismissed. And so you continue to like rationalize and see in a lot of ways, like you function with less and less and less in the relationship while like taking on more and more and more. Um, and it comes from some, you know, deep levels of being self-sacrificing and a people pleaser. And your goal is always to just kind of make it work, and you're taking on a lot of responsibility in the relationship for it not working as being your fault, and you just need to try harder and you just need to fix it. And from this space, then finding yourself having an affair and being like, whoa, this was not what I planned. You know, you it like you said, water is offered and you find yourself taking it and shocked at how desperately thirsty you really were without knowing. Correct?
SPEAKER_00Correct. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So why we wanted to take a second at the beginning of this episode to clarify that is because, as in the case of these, you know, the person who commented and the woman on the weather of the week mentioned, that is who those episodes are for. That is not um the dynamic we're gonna be talking about today. The affairs that we're gonna be focusing on is gonna be more where you are still the codependent in the relationship. You're still trying, you're still committed to the relationship, you're hoping that things are going well, and maybe your partner's not communicating with you, or what they're communicating or asking you for is maybe something that like you can't give or violates your boundaries. Or, you know, I think of moments where like your partner's like, I need more intimacy and more physical touch, but there's no emotional intimacy for you. And then they go have an affair, and you take that on yourself. Your reaction to it is, well, I must be the one to blame. Um, and that's why that previous episode is so triggering for so many of those women that have this other experience. Listening to that episode, it's not for them. I even told her on the Weather of the Week call, I was like, that episode is not for you. I am so sorry that the episode that is for you has not been recorded yet. And then I got right on that. And we're recording that episode right now. So, with that kind of there to ground us around why um this episode is different from the other episodes. I would love to kick us off with just talking about how when it comes to affairs, as we've seen just now, like two very different experiences, like there are all kinds of different affairs. And this was something you were kind of tapping me into, Joe, of like, you know, not everybody's having an affair, Britta, because they're on a stranded island and they have no water to drink. So educate us, share with us. Obviously, we will not hit even close to all of them, but just some of the affairs that you've seen.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I've seen seen and talked to and heard of. I mean, it could be, you know, well, that's just that's just our that's just my culture. You know, uh my my parents did it, my grandparents did it, their grandparents did it. It's just something, you know, we've you know, something I'm familiar with and something I'm used to. And, you know, and there's certain cultures that are it is not looked down upon. You know, it's just that's just what they do. You know, we have our our normal you know, power over situations where, you know, somebody needs to dominate, somebody has the power and the ability to enforce that power. And you know, this there's just so many different avenues and and sort of mentalities, you know, that go into you know essentially breaking a promise with the pun you've made that promise to. I mean, it's just too too varied a topic um to even to honestly really touch.
SPEAKER_04And that's exactly like I I love asking you, like, here, give us a list because you kind of just showed physically what we experienced when we were trying to pin down this topic. Like, you know, I'm talking to you, and I'm like, okay, so like, you know, in my previous episodes, it was kind of clear that like, well, like your other partner is a little bit like they do carry some of the fault because they haven't been showing up in the marriage and and they haven't been hearing you. And then, you know, we go to like other, you were like, well, then there's guys though that will just, you know, literally pay women for sex. It's not emotional. It's just uh, they're bored, or they just want something to distract them. Um, when you brought in the whole cultural piece, I was like, what? And then it it reminded me, you know, I was like, oh yeah, just I mean, it is really pretty recent that marriage and at least for men, being quote, loyal to one woman is seen as more of like a moral standard or expectation within a marriage, where previously, just go back a hundred years, like having a mistress, having somebody else on the side was expected. Even in I think of the book The Tragedy of Heterosexuality, where they talk about how, you know, even in the 1950s here in the US, there was this idea of like your wife is the ball and chain at home, and you kind of go to the men's clubs to experience this other piece of life that you need that you can't get within that container. But you got to have that container for the everyday life and the kids and the stability. So it's important when we start off, like you did so beautifully, just acknowledging this is a vast and very um complicated, uh multifaceted experience that can't really be contained or nicely or neatly explained. Um I think you were the one that said it where you're like, it really has to be taken like case by case, person by person, which is why it's so difficult to do an episode about affairs because somebody's gonna have a different experience uh of it that with whatever you're saying, like their their approach is gonna feel different. Does that resonate with you, Jeb?
SPEAKER_00That is definitely resonating, you know, just just in knowing all sorts of different sorts of people. And I've seen so many different sorts of reasons for you know having an affair or you know just doing things outside of your monogamous, you know, relationship. Yeah, you know, it doesn't have to be marriage or you know it's a the relationship you have created with another person was really what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and the expectation is we are only emotionally or physically intimate with each other. And I do one of the things we wanted to be clear with is you know, on this episode, that's what we're talking about when we're talking about affairs. We are not talking about polyamory or ethical non-monogamy, which are actually like growing in the conversation, in, you know, as we are all grappling with these questions of how do we experience what we are needing within marriages over long spans of time, with you know, life expectancies that are are much longer, where now it's not just we're married for, you know, 20, 30 years, it's we're looking at 50 years and we're going through multiple seasons of life and we're going through big changes in ourselves and the world over the span of that relationship. So affairs, they have, I mean, ever since I started working with women, considering divorce, they've always been one of like the top three things that is a piece just percentage-wise, that ends up being a part of the work I'm doing. It's always been something I'm fascinated with. So I'm really, I'm just very, I'm very excited that we get to dive into it and that I get to dive into it with you, um, who I feel like is just someone who has lived a lot more of life in this area, had more experience in this area, and not only had experience, but had time and space to reflect and digest post all of it. Yeah. We've established kind of like, yes, so many different kinds of affairs, so many different ways to come to an affair, so many different reasons to have an affair. But one of the things I loved that you, when we were brainstorming, really anchored for us was that you said ultimately affairs are about people, really. That's ultimately what they're about. What did you mean when you said that?
SPEAKER_00I mean, without without understanding yourself, without really loving and understanding and respecting yourself, because knowing about yourself and respecting yourself can be opposite as well. I mean, without really grasping who you are as a person and you what your needs are, you know, the relationships are not really gonna work out as well as we want, right? And that's somebody you've gone to high school with and fell in love with without knowing yourself. That is probably not meant to be, right?
SPEAKER_04I mean, it without yeah, without I know the the meant to be idea is like it what we're taught. Can I just I'm gonna jump in?
SPEAKER_03Please, please help me.
SPEAKER_04No, not even help you. Just I love this. What you're because you know, this is what I talk about a lot on the podcast. This idea that who we were when we picked these people that then 20 years later maybe aren't the same fit for us. It's this like paradoxical feeling of, oh, if I knew what I know now, I wouldn't have made the choices I made back then. But you can only make the choices back then that you can make back then. Right. So it is this, I think it's more like an experience in your body of like having to sit with the paradoxical understanding of your life unfolds the way it's meant to be because that is the way it is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's you know. And it's true. Sometimes when we get hindsight, we look back with, you know, the regret of thinking it woulda, shoulda, coulda been something else. And I know you and I both feel that at times when we look back at the it feels like the lifetimes we've had before, you know, who we are now.
SPEAKER_00But the eras.
SPEAKER_04The exactly the Taylor Swift eras. There was my Mormon era, there was my. But that um it's it's being able to hold that complexity of like, yes, that was what was meant to be because it was what was. And in this present moment, I get to reflect on the past, understand myself to a deeper level. And through, which I believe is so much of like the work I teach, the coaching I teach, what you and I are passionate about, through that like deep introspective growth, you come to know yourself in ways that hopefully are deeper than they were in your past. And because they are deeper, then your future becomes something more aligned with who you really are. Because if you don't do that introspective work, you're just gonna keep repeating the same, you know, choices that you made when you were a 19-year-old because you haven't figured out who you really are.
SPEAKER_00You know, I watched my parents go through this. You know, they were married very young and they divorced, you know, in a short period afterwards, short, I guess, being relative. And I watched them really go through the same sort of mistakes, you know, um just unfulfilled relationships, you know marriage and divorce and and just I just watch them never really come to terms with who they are or what they needed, you know, other than you know, society says we're supposed Be married, society says, you know, this, and it was never a success. Just wasn't a great life for them. Um, because it it brings up all sorts of other things, you know, addiction or just everything that you expect to go wrong in a human, you know, they managed to accomplish. Um, and I was actually on the same path, you know, not really understanding, you know, my needs and the things that I wanted and the relationships that I did have um were just, you know, my ideali idealized versions of those relationships, and and that was never a reality. It was you know, just a way not to be alone. Um and and I really, you know, punched myself in the face repeatedly, trying to understand, without really trying to understand. You know, it was more of, okay, well, this is the person, maybe they can fix me, or this is a situation, and maybe this will help.
SPEAKER_04Um or if I pour myself into this relationship enough, maybe it'll be what I'm looking for.
SPEAKER_00You know, well, maybe if I sacrificed this part, or maybe if I made more money, or was at home or around more often, or you know, you it was a constant minimizing of my core, or or even hiding the things that were truly needed just to be in love, or to be in a relationship, or to feel something other than absolute loneliness. Um which which really took me to my mid to late forties to understand that this was not working. You know, that that was not working. It was not what I needed. It's what I thought I needed, um, but it wasn't who I needed or what I needed, or the core self really needed to thrive and to grow and to expand.
SPEAKER_04Um this is just a like just a little like side note. We're not gonna go down this rabbit hole, but when you think of that finding what you really needed, who you really were, did that emerge more when you finally were with yourself, alone with yourself?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I did have to, yeah, I really had to, you know, step into that spotlight and really examine, you know, all the relationships. I had to I had to see the the line that goes through them all. Um and I really just had to really sit with myself and you know it wasn't like a certain meditation or a certain breathing practice, which are all helpful and useful. It wasn't a particular dogma or religion which have their own benefits, it was actually just separating myself from the loneliness, understanding what the loneliness was. And and even though I had these relationships, I was always alone. I always felt alone and unknown and just just existing, right? I wasn't able to sit with myself, even though I was still alone, even in these relationships. I was still felt alone. Like, well, they don't know me and they don't understand me, and they don't they don't realize the pain or the struggle or the life. Um, but they never could. How could how could they? You know, I didn't know.
SPEAKER_04That's one of the things I love the the most about you, Joe, is that you really have done a lot of the relationships, like every kind of type experience you can think of. Like you really tried. That was one of the ways that you, you know, were seeking that fulfillment. Um, that's one of the reasons why I was so excited to do this episode, because as we mentioned at the beginning, you really understand the perspective, which is kind of where you were in your first marriage of the feeling starved, I'm on a desert island. I am so hungry to be seen, known, understood, or just loved that I will be the one that, you know, has the affairs. But I'd love for you, I want to dive into this other piece, which is later on. So once you got divorced and you started diving into other relationships, you got to experience actually what it feels like to really love someone, to want that relationship to be more, and then to have that person have an affair.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I especially for my listeners that have experienced that, I'd love for you to speak to what that really felt like. How that experience is different from, you know, what you went through when you were the one having the affair. What was it like on the opposite end?
SPEAKER_00I mean, it it was it was devastating, you know. Um it's devastating to think that I have my person and I wasn't enough, that I couldn't fulfill all their needs, that you know, I couldn't be enough. And you know, it really started like a very intense shame spiral. And, you know, and on top of all the eternalized doubt and and guilt, and the there was so much anger to the other person, so much resentment and blame, and just being between those sets of emotions, um, you know, was really debilitating, you know, it really had me feeling just loose in the world. You know, like I had no grounding, I had no foundation, I had nothing to fall back on, you know, my whole existence was cultivate cultivating this relationship, cultivating this partnership, and then, you know, feeling it all just go away. Um or all the safety or the imagined safety of it just disappear and just feeling so lost.
SPEAKER_04Um Do you I'm so fascinated by this piece, especially you talking about almost like a like it being untethered. Like, do you think that is related to when when you talked about that, I thought of like, you know, that secure attachment piece and how for those of us that don't learn secure attachment to ourselves from our parents in childhood, it does seem to be this pattern where we are seeking that secure attachment in relationships, especially those of us that are empaths and lovers, and I know you you are such you are more of an empath and a lover and a caretaker than I am. Like it is a deep, beautiful part of yourself. And so we we invest that in the relationship, and it kind of becomes like the relationship is our secure attachment to the world. And so I can imagine I've never had this experience myself, which is why I'm so glad I get to talk with you about it. That must feel, like you said, like the whole world is crashing down.
SPEAKER_00Right. And not only is it crashing down, it's the sense of responsibility, you know, like there was there's something in me that made this happen. There was something in me that created the discourse, or, you know, uh gave my partner, you know, there was something so lacking in me that my partner had to go find it elsewhere.
SPEAKER_04Ah, so this is why the women that I mentioned at the beginning of the that are in this other camp, like listening to those other episodes is so triggering because there is this deep fear. If you are someone who is more of the, like we were explaining, a codependent in the relationship that is really investing. This is, you know, you're not neglecting this relationship. This is what you want to thrive. You are hoping it is. And then to find out that your partner has made this choice, you internalize and take on responsibility for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Uh, at least I did. I mean, um, you know, I because who else, you know, obviously it's my fault. It was, you know, the mindset I was in, you know, because I for whatever reason, I it was just not enough. Um what was painful. I mean, it's really just painful on so many levels, and all the different levels, and all the different, you know ways you could think about it, I was always able to like accept the blame. Even if I was, you know, angry at the other person, even if I was blaming them, um, it still always came back to me.
SPEAKER_04That undercurrent that's always there of the responsibility. If something's going wrong, it's my responsibility.
SPEAKER_01It's my responsibility.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. You and I have talked about how for us, particularly individually, that definitely comes from our childhood. For us, you know, we can only speak to our experiences, but being the oldest, taking a lot of responsibility for our siblings, being having a lot of responsibility placed on us by our parents, that yeah, both you and I have a tendency to, if someone's upset or something's not going well, or our thought is not, oh, look at that. It's wait, what what did I do? Or is it me? Or we immediately kind of like are checking in with ourselves. So um Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it's still, you know, if one of my kids is having a bad day, you know, my first is like, okay, uh, what do you need? What uh um you know, to overextending.
SPEAKER_04So I imagine, you know, if that's kind of your natural go-to, all of a sudden you're in this situation where I the extremes, like you said, I love when you described the extremes that you're kind of like swinging back and forth from of both at one moment having parts of your which as you talk about so much of this. I'm like, this is just it sounds like it's heavily mixed with like our the CBTSD aspect, the emotional flashback. Like you've got all these parts interacting during this experience. You've got parts that are blaming you for it. And then you've got other parts that are absolutely losing their shit over how this could have happened to you, that are angry at your partner. You've probably got parts that are like, well, we we can figure it out. We can fix this. I'm sure we can make this work.
SPEAKER_00Like justifying navigating your childhood abandonment issues, you know?
SPEAKER_04Just you know, just a little bit of that as well.
SPEAKER_00Just a little, add that, you know, add that, added, you know. Um it it's a destabilizing, it can be a very destabilizing event. And, you know, it'll affect your your health and you know, lack of sleep, not being able to eat. It's just it's a it's just a lot. It could be, you know, somebody's entire identity is, you know, be you you go to your friends and you're as a unit, you go to out or you know, parent-teacher conferences or whatever. You you show up as a unit, and now this unit is no longer viable. And you take a lot of blame for that or responsibility.
SPEAKER_04Um but you're also, you know, the really tricky part about that is you are completely powerless in this moment because ultimately it was their choice, their decision, and what they're going to do from here is very out of your control. Is that I'm is that an element to it? Because I'm like, in the other situation, maybe there's a little bit more of you, like a little bit more empowered. Yes, you're dealing with like the guilt and the shame because you've made a choice that maybe isn't an integrity when we're thinking of, you know, you having an affair when you were married. But there is a little bit of at least like you're waking up to things, you're understanding more about yourself. You're feeling like, oh, there's something here. There's a thread to kind of follow that's leading you to more of yourself, potentially. But in this instance, you're a little bit perhaps on like the back heel, like, whoa, I wasn't actually leaning into this needing to change, or maybe things weren't great, but they were still something I was investing in.
SPEAKER_00Is that an element? Succinct, yeah. Absolutely. That's an element. Um, because it feels like it's such a shock and surprise, right? It came out of space. You know, it's not something I was prepared for or had even considered. You know, and um it's there's such a sense of loss. You know, uh at that time I remember feeling the loss, you know, the loss of self. Not just not just the problems in the relationship, but a complete and utter loss of who I thought I was and what I was doing.
SPEAKER_04Well, and I would imagine like you a loss of your understanding of the world you were building, because when we enter relationships, we world build with that person. We create these, you know, different realities of what that love looks like, what that love feels like. And especially if we've come from loss of love or connection in childhood, or maybe in your instance, like, you know, your first marriage had ended. So you already knew there were ways that things could not work out. You're hopeful and you're pouring into this and you're wanting this to be something different. Even if, you know, even if it's our first marriage, you're still coming off of maybe past relationships or the dynamics with your parents, and you're hoping this is gonna be the one that's different.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. And then it's not. It's just it's a different version of, you know, of a failed relationship. It's just it it looks different. Um and the results may have, you know, actually the results were the same. You know, it was a a dissolution of a relationship, right? But how you get to that end was vastly different. Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So what you're saying, and you're pointing out here, is that in the first, in the first instance for you, where you were the one that had the affair, there was still a dissolution of a relationship, but the route that you took to get there felt so drastically different than this route that when it all of a sudden is the same, a dissolution or oh, this relationship is not the connected dream I had for it, it felt massively shocking to like end up in the same location yet have taken a total different route than you thought was leading you somewhere else.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04Wow. And uh, you know, I'll I'll mention, you know, obviously some of our listeners are not gonna have had that experience of like experiencing both of those dynamics. Yeah, they may be made their their experience may be very much, you know, this is the first route, this is the first time I've landed in this location. But I love that from your viewpoint, what you're sharing, and really what the heart of the episode is that we're gonna talk about a little bit later, is that this is where we really start to learn and have to come back to ultimately affair, you having the affair, you being the one who your partner has the affair on, the answer always has to be where is the secure attachment to myself?
SPEAKER_00Right. I mean yes, without that, I mean, because now I could see the relationships in a completely different way, I think. You know, instead of instead of blaming myself for my partner that hadn't cheated on me, um I understood that no matter what I had done, no matter who I was at that time, was probably always gonna have probably was never gonna be enough for that person. Right. And so I really had to under realize that I had to be enough for me. And and really understand that, you know, whatever actions other people do does not mean that I was the one that made them do that, which is what I'd always kind of felt is that I was responsible one, I was the one that made these choices and they had to do this or they had to do that or whatever.
SPEAKER_04Um which is often what was mirrored back to you in your childhood. I mean, your parents did a lot of blaming their frustration, their anger, their behaviors on their relationship was my fault, you know. Yeah. So I want to backtrack with you a little bit because yes, the end result, you know, was this like finally understanding and being able to see, wait a second, it's not actually about me. This is very much my partner's decision and ultimately comes from a whole bunch of, you know, complicated interplay of pieces for them.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04But coming back to that moment, because I'd love to talk through a little bit the journey and the process that it took for you from the shock and the my world is collapsing, and I am completely destabilized. And not only am I destabilized, but I'm also kind of caught on my back foot. I'm not, you know, I was not moving towards this. I was not moving towards something that was like opening or calling me forward or showing me more of myself. So if you think back to that period of time, what you and I well, I also was gonna say, I was thinking, there also seems to be like a grief process you have to go through with like all those stages of perhaps like denial and anger and bargaining. I'm curious if that was something that you noticed in the after effects. Like there was no clear cut, this is what we're doing. Was it more, and now we wade into this mess together?
SPEAKER_00I it I I I'm gonna say it was all of those things. It was, you know, let's figure this out. Um and and really driving hard the we can figure this out in everything that involves, you know, more communication, more this, more that, you know. Um I I don't know if I ever was in the in the process ever able to come to terms like this has nothing to do with me before, you know, years later, and a lot of hindsight. Um a lot of bargaining, you know, we can you know if I do this X mo uh uh X amount more, you know you'll have less time or less energy. It was never it was never like a static, you know, one, two, three sort of progression. You know, it was let's let's try all this, let's let's go see a counselor, let's let's try to manage, you know, where things fell or where things were good and um it was it was a hot mess for years um with myself, you know, even after the relationship ended, uh I was still having the same sort of problems in other relationships, you know, that I couldn't trust myself, that I was not good enough to be in a relationship.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and for you, um I I know you've shared with me that like post that relationship, there was a period of time where you kind of just only went into dynamics where you knew the grounds were non-committed or short term or that person was unavailable. Maybe that person was already married, and so you knew what the game was because it had shook you so deeply to really open, feel like you were being seen and known by someone, and then to realize that trust had been broken.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And just being so scared all the time of experiencing that pain again. Just being unable to open up to it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's so it was it was hardcore. It was a hardcore time of my life.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and this was something that I I mean, thankfully, through through dating you and seeing those comments and then you know, hearing from this woman in the community that I wanted to be able to have here on the podcast spoken to because it's it's not an experience I have much um exposure to in my own life. I've had a little bit, and that little taste that I got was enough to make me go, oh wow, this is a different piece entirely when you really, really love someone and then you feel like they want to be with someone else. And even if you, you know, it doesn't even have to be at the level. That's the beauty, once again, remembering like all the different nuance, all the different ways for those of us that are listening, like your journey, maybe, maybe I'm not entirely like over head over hills in love with my husband, but I still, you know, maybe I still do love him though, and I still loved what we were building, and I still felt like that was um at a different level than what he was feeling. So it's understanding, I think, just how um traumatizing in its own way it can be to believe you are on the same page, or at least a page that's on the same chapter in the book with someone, and realize, like, oh no, they're in a totally different chapter. And that that is a very different process and journey of it's just it's just a different route for you when we're talking about affairs in that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, that's yeah, because there are sort all sorts of affairs, and there is, you know, it could it could be just as simple as, you know, a connection, just a conversation connection with somebody else. And and if your partner sees that, that could be a real sense of betrayal to them. You know, it doesn't have to be a physical affair. Um it's just a loss of that connection. Or or uh, you know, you think our your connection is with in a certain way, and realizing, well, there's another connection that they're having that I'm really you know missing in myself, or I am um not experiencing that connection that they're having the same way. You know, and that could be just as just you know destabilizing, debilitating, you know, frustrating. The comparison Yeah and so you know it's it's it's just it's just it's such a complex you know cheating affairs, it's just such a complex situation per individual. You know, some people think flirting with a delivery person um or server or waiter is just flirty, friendly flirty, and their partner could see that as a loss or a minimization of their relationship. You know, it doesn't have to be such a physical thing.
SPEAKER_04I'm so glad you you're bringing this piece up too, because I think this is also I was talking with a woman um recently who was sharing this exact thing that, like, you know, the culture she comes from, friend, friendship with men is not seen as like at least, you know, I think in the way I was raised, like you, once you got married, did not have friends with someone from the opposite sex. It was seen as too risky, or, you know, oh, there's always something else in it. But in her culture, it was very normal to yes, be married and to still have guy friends. And it was a real source of conflict in their marriage, with her husband always seeing her behavior or the way she was being as being something else, and her really feeling like it's not. It truly isn't like I feel deeply committed to this relationship. So it just, ah, it just once again brings like the importance of knowing kind of ourselves and the level of commitment that we need within a relationship, which I think there's no better example I've had of that than when you and I first started dating. And, you know, we were, I was in a space where I really had not had the amount of experiences you'd had. I was still a lot more, I would say just kind of open and trying to, you know, figure out. And meanwhile, you knew very clearly, because of the experiences you'd had, the work you had put into knowing yourself and knowing what you needed in a relationship. You knew clearly, like, I'm looking for something that is. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_00I will.
SPEAKER_04But you were looking for something, you were like, I it's so funny. I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to divulge a little. I'm gonna have to like beer off because I'm like in the beginning, I was the one that was like, you gotta put a ring on it. We gotta be monogamous, like, shut all that other stuff down. Like, I don't feel safe. Like on date two, after you kissed me, I was like, whoa, wait a second, are you serious? Because like, I really like you. Um, but as our relationship, as our relationship went on, I realized I was still in a lot of like my own exploration and trying to understand parts about myself that I wasn't fully aware of when we first started dating. And so we had some big conversations in that first year of dating, where we had moments of you, you know, us setting boundaries in our relationship and me breaking those boundaries often in a very like unconscious way. And you in such a beautifully loving and just like real way, being like, hey, this is a boundary we set and you crossed it. And what does that mean? And you really holding the line on like if it really does mean this is what you want instead, I want you to have that, and I that's not for me.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04Does that kind of yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's you know, I just I well before I would have been like, okay, yeah, I mean, yeah, that's you know, I can work with this, or you know, even though I will be stressed and feeling untethered about it, um, I would be very more appeasing, you know, and wanting to work it out and and wanting things to be um able to stay together. Right. To me to allow the relationship to be a relationship, I would smooth parts of myself in ways that I didn't feel good about smoothing. Um you know, and I'm you know, I'm not talking about like that's where are we going to dinner? Or, you know, what you know, do you not like this color of blue on me? I mean, those are things that are like not not my core person. Um, but if wanted to if you wanted to be in like a pseudo relationship where, you know, it was um it was just not gonna be a fit for what I needed for my own regulation, for my own, you know, inner calm and inner peace. Um you know, I didn't want to sacrifice who I was to keep our relationship a relationship.
SPEAKER_04Well, and it wasn't even I I what I love about you, especially like as I've looked back over our relationship and the way it evolved, is it's not that you didn't want to do that. There was a part of you that really wanted to do that because you really liked me and you really wanted this to work out. It was that you knew yourself well enough that you knew if I do that, this will end in ruin. Like at some point, this will eventually end up right back in that location of the relationship dissolving because I know better now what I need. And you knew so deeply your own trauma, what you had been through, the experiences you had had, that it was just a clear for you kind of of like, I just can't fuck around in those ways and pretend like I can and end up in this other place. It's it's not gonna be the case for me. And it was such a huge gift. I immensely understand it now. I didn't at the time. At the time, it was a huge gift because I didn't know that about myself. I was just still, you know, figuring out a lot of pieces. And as luckily, I just could trust my gut and I could trust my body. And each time it came to one of those junctures, really where my heart and my body led me back to was ultimately like, no, I actually do want this with Joe. And so I'm gonna trust that, okay, this is this is what I'm really wanting. And as time played out, it became more and more apparent that actually the parts of me that were really wanting some of those like more out there or different experiences um may have come a bit from that like insecure attachment and that just just those pieces that we're we're wrestling with and we're kind of figuring out a lot in our younger years, which I didn't get to do in at all in my 20s, from a little bit of like fuck around and find out. You know, that's just how most of us have to find these things out.
SPEAKER_00And that was the case for you. Yeah, for sure. That was definitely the case for me. Um, you know, I didn't have mentors or, you know, people I respected in the world that could give advice. You know, I couldn't fall to, you know, religion or, you know, books. I mean, a lot of people really find some insight in books, and at the time I could not do that. Um and so I was just winging it, you know, just going out, you know, Yahoo'in, living through the day, and and just you know I was just and just out there, just just surviving, you know, just making it day by day, surviving you know, relationship and you know, work and kids and divorce and um yeah, it was just chaos, you know, for years.
SPEAKER_04When do you feel like that chaos really started to shift for you know you we've tracked, right? You know, um the affair coming through and out of your marriage, then meeting someone that you really, really thought, maybe this is my person, them ending up having an affair. And from there, really just years of oof, you know, I feel drawn to intimacy and relationships and I want connection. And also they are like the deepest source of my pain and confusion and never seem to work out. So what was the turning point?
SPEAKER_00Um it was after another very difficult breakup, um, you know, another just reliving the same pattern in my relationships, you know, it may look different, it may it's different people and all that stuff. But after another very heartbreaking breakup, um I really I really had to sit with myself. Just really had to sit and and and and play back, you know, go through everything I had experienced, you know, noticing that the patterns were always there, right? It was kind of the same pattern over commit, you know, change myself in such a way that to make the relationship work better or longer or you know and then kind of being resentful during the relationship and and then just and then blaming myself for feeling resentment and and blaming myself for them not understanding me when I really you know part of it was I did not know who I was and who I wanted to be. You know, I was always what somebody else needed me to be.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes, I think.
SPEAKER_00Once I realized that, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Tell me, once I realized that.
SPEAKER_00I said once I realized that and could see all the other patterns and all the other, you know, my motivation for every other relationship and knowing that those were just totally different. Who I was and who I was to be for somebody else was just not not completely, but the core of those people are totally different.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think a lot of listeners will relate to that feeling of like I was just being who they needed me to be. Yeah, that's for those of us raised with conditional love in childhood from our parents. Right. That is the only thing we know is love is conditional. And the more that I can learn what you want me to be and who you want me to be and how you want me to perform for you, the more I can get that love from you.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And how devastating when you have played that game and that person ultimately chooses someone else. Cause you are left with, like, oh wow, I've become a completely different person to try and make this work. And it still isn't enough.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04That's I must not have done it wrong. Yeah. Which uh I want to be clear when we say that it isn't enough or the self-blame, that's just our in, you know, that's that internalized voice. It doesn't mean that's actually accurate because Absolutely. One of the things that I loved that you emphasized when we were talking about this episode was just how important it is that I think because it's such a huge emotional roller coaster when you find out that your partner has had an affair, is your brain just goes to who needs to take the blame. And you tend to ping pong, right? From the like they're to blame, I'm to blame, they're to blame, I'm to blame.
SPEAKER_00Right. I mean, it it's it's such a head game, right? Because, you know, someone has to be blamed, right? That's that's what we're always taught. I am not the bad guy. You know, somebody else needs to be the bad guy. And okay, I'm the bad guy. You know the victim part of feeling so betrayed and uh, you know, and and put on upon, you know. Um and then we have to reflect that, and it's somebody else has to be the blame because we did everything right, or um it is just you know it's it's such a head game. It's such a mind space to be in. And, you know, it takes so long. To get you know, so much of your day is is on one of those two topics and it's constant. And or it could be a week of being so angry and mad, you know, and then you know and then you have to internalize that because I was so angry and I just didn't do this. It's a mess for the psyche. You know? And especially if you don't have a secure attachment or you've no you no idea what that looks like. Um it all comes back to the internal, you know, I wasn't enough, or I could have done something different, or I could have done I could have been better, or I could have I don't know, lost weight, made more money. I mean, it's it doesn't even matter because it's it's so hard to just feel like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Cause ultimately I think this this rush towards either I need to blame them or I need to blame myself is just a way to escape the deeper, more painful feelings of loss and grief and um really reckoning with like, whoa, what do we do from here? Um one of the things that I wanted you to speak to, because we've I think we've done a good job like really dropping into how intense this experience is. Um what would you, you know, for someone going through this right now who maybe is like, shit, yes, that's where I am. I am in the mind fuck and I am in the spin and I don't know where to go from here, and I don't have that secure attachment in myself, and I'm wanting, I find myself spending weeks blaming them or blaming myself. What are a couple anchors that, you know, as maybe a mentor to them, having been somebody who's gone through this now, that you would recommend instead?
SPEAKER_00Uh you know the the one thing I try to make sure everybody under you know has or can start learning is grace. Grace for themselves. Right? Grace for the angry parts, grace for the sad parts, grace for everything in between. Because you know pulling your hair out because of something is not it's not what you need. Right? If you're sad, yes. Understand that you are sad and and just kinda sit with that. If you're angry, well, you have a right to be angry. You know, you have the grace to be angry. Um and and if you don't start with grace for yourself, you know you're you're you're not start you know, you have to start there. You know, you have to understand that there is a core of you and that core has a lot of things going on. And and and being angry and shameful about how you're feeling is is just hard on your on your psyche and on your soul. You know it's like, yeah, I am cr really sad. Well, yeah, you are sad and you get to be that sad person. You know, that sadness that's in you is supposed to be there. Right and and or or or the anger you feel for somebody else. Alright. That's that's just let's just feel that. You are a hundred percent okay in being angry. That is just something you have to feel you know, you have to give yourself that grace. Um, I think that is the hardest thing for people to learn. That was the hardest thing for me to learn. And it's it seems like such a simple concept and idea, but the practice is is a lot a lot more difficult, you know, embracing that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I want to speak to that because I think when I think of like what allows us to have grace for ourselves, I think a lot of that is understanding the systems, understanding where you've come from, the childhood you had, the tools you've been given, the that's what, at least for myself, that's what I found was the more that I have been able to do that introspective work of looking back and going, okay, what did I really come from? Where were my needs met or not met? Where were where was I, you know, allowed to be myself or completely taught that being myself was the last thing to be. And if you can track back through that and start to see that and understand, um, makes me think of my episode last week where I talked about values. If you can look back at like, okay, what were the values that I had when I met this person? What are my values now and how have those changed? That's what allows that dynamic uh relationship with ourselves instead of the more black and white traditional ways that religion or culture has taught us of, oh, well, I'm a I'm a good person and this shouldn't happen to good people, or I'm a bad person and that's why I've done this, or it's it's really wading out into the gray of I'm a human that comes from a very, for many of us, much more messy and complicated childhood than I've been able to maybe acknowledge to myself. And, you know, that most of our parents did not acknowledge to us.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04My parents would have said, like I had a great childhood.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I yes, I've never heard anything bad about my grandparents. And, you know, they never say anything about their parents.
SPEAKER_04Um And yet when we look at it, there's so much trauma in your family, just like massive levels of people denying how they're actually feeling, acting in ways that then hurt other people that are never addressed or really worked through. And we just keep going on with our lives.
SPEAKER_00Right. Ignoring, ignoring the truth, you know, the elephant in the room.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So I really appreciate you explaining like that first piece of grace. And I think in the grace, you're too, you're talking about like the emotional processing that I talk a lot about on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That, oh, when it comes to just pure emotional sensation vibration in your body, when we cannot just be with ourselves in that experience, allowing it to just like, yeah, there's the anger. I feel it in my hands, I feel it in my body, allowing it to be and to move through with presence and awareness. That's that's where we end up having to go to all the other things. That's where we end up having to go to the alcohol, to the screens, to another relationship, to all the pieces to a pieces.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Whatever distraction, you know, going to the gym seven times a week is a distraction. You know.
SPEAKER_04Um working, making tons of money.
SPEAKER_00Working.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04I know you I know you know. So another thing I love about you is you like tried all the distractions.
SPEAKER_00I tried all the things. Came up with some combination things to try. And you know, what's that saying? Wherever you go, there you are. Well, I found my place you know, I found myself all over the place.
SPEAKER_04Um no matter how much you tried to run.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I was always there. Always always coming back to the same thing. Right. Yeah. You know. Um, until I I learned.
SPEAKER_04So I would offer, you know, if if the first piece that you're saying, like, okay, if you find yourself in this situation, and yes, the the the let's just be very real, that the human reaction is all of those pieces of the blaming yourself, blaming them, and just spiraling and spinning back and forth, uh, moving through perhaps different stages of the grief cycle of bargaining and trying to fix things or getting angry and you know, attacking them or shaming them or guilting them or trying to control them to get them to come back. Makes me think of, you know, those five things that I talked about in my affairs part two episode that husbands often do when they find out. Like we just kind of go to these behaviors when really, um, like you were saying, perhaps it's a moment to slow down and catch ourselves in that moment. And with you saying, you know, give yourself grace, I want to offer for some of us that's really, really difficult without support from others. And so I know, you know, I was just thinking this is the this is the beauty of community, you know, of finding a place. It's I know it's especially difficult. I I just my heart feels for for men because I just feel like it is like I think of you, and I'm like, I don't where would you have really gone besides like going to therapy, which I know you did mention, I believe, when we were talking that therapy was actually very helpful for you in learning these pieces, correct?
SPEAKER_00It was later on, um and like you said, you know, it really traced me back to the earliest parts of my memory and my interactions with the adult in my life, and and just seeing that those interactions reverberate, you know, to my relationships all through my life, you know. And it may not have looked the same, but it was thematically very similar, you know, on the same color wheel, if you would. Um and and going and understanding those parts of myself better um by going into the past and seeing, you know, those parts in another light, you know, or you know, the interaction between my parents and and seeing that I was playing a part of that or you know, a version of that all the way through. So the therapy did help with, you know, understanding better who I was all over, you know, all of me was.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that's the magic of of just acknowledging like really clearly here that it is really difficult when you have come from an environment as a child where grace was not given to you to somehow as an adult, while you're going through something like this, now be able to give grace to yourself. And it is the very thing you need. So I want to couple that with like, and if that is something that it feels absolutely impossible to give, this is the time, like that is the time to get professional help. That is the time to have a therapist that can really see you have a coach or be a part of a community where you are at least surrounded by other people that are trying to do this deeper introspective work on themselves. And yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Because if you don't if you don't know it that that kind of work exists, um, and if you don't understand that there's a lot at play here. You know, we are made up of so many different interactions through our entire lives. You know, and so you don't know where one trauma comes from or you know, one set of circumstances comes from. And and I really believe that trauma is a generational thing. You know, it could be your great grandparent that had some trauma that you are having to deal with right now. You know, just something has come up and you don't understand why you're experiencing it this way. Um but you know, this is just something that you get to deal with.
SPEAKER_02Hooray!
SPEAKER_04I know that moment where we're all like, Joe and I though, we could we could sit on this podcast and be like, this is what you get to deal with. Hooray! Because we both have been through some serious shit. So, you know, we're not saying that lightly. We get what it's like to be like, I often say, like, goddamn fuck. This, this is what I get to be processing through.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. Um, one of the things I want to bring us back to kind of here as we're closing out the episode, is coming back to that piece of what we were talking about earlier that I think in getting to look back over those two previous episodes I did about affairs and getting to come in from this different angle, what was driven home for me most was that no matter which direction you're coming at affairs from, there are a lot of off-ramps to just keep going down that route, to keep repeating those cycles, to just keep um really doing a lot of things and yet never really feeling like you end up in a different location or really where you want to be most. And I think it's important to make that point because sometimes when you're the one who the partner, you know, your partner's the one that's had the affair, it can can feel almost like I, you know, like, oh, they're the one that's like off doing things and like figuring themselves out. But as you and I have seen, and I've seen it a lot with my women that are the ones having an affair, just because you have an affair does not mean you have worked on your secure attachment. You know, right, Joe?
SPEAKER_00No, that's like I mean, yeah, it's just it is not it's almost never is going to be your answer to what you need. Right? It's just it's never gonna be the fix to what is going on with your life.
SPEAKER_04Um Yeah, it's it's ultimately still going to require you to do the work of secure attachment. And I've seen it pretty more often than not, that actually the rarest thing I've seen is where like an affair partner actually becomes someone that you end up with. But more often than not, affair partners are people who are also in insecure attachment themselves. And you become a catalyst for each other that kind of opens up other doorways, other windows that you then have to on your own go through and dig deeper into and explore and understand and follow up on to move forward through your own individuation process and moving into more secure attachment with yourself to ever in the future be able to enter a relationship that is actually like more secure attachment based. Do you agree with that?
SPEAKER_00I absolutely agree with that. I I think I have also hardly ever seen uh an a fair relationship progress into something long-term and good, right? I mean good being, you know, um stable, so yeah, you know, something that and when we say good, I just mean like and that's it's very important that we make that clear.
SPEAKER_04I'm when I say good, I mean like secure attachment. Like both of us feel really, really solidly like I'm secure with myself, you're secure with you, and we are secure in the relationship. It's just really tough to do that when the foundation of the relationship comes out of an affair.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04Cause usually I think it's we got a lot in the midst.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, the whole psychology of having an affair and being with someone that's already in a relationship. That is not gonna be an hour-long episode with some highly skilled doctors and therapists. That's not something I can talk about specifically, um, because it's not something I've seen successful, but as a catalyst to, you know, my whole growth. Right. I think that's, you know, I mean it's just highlighting a fundamental issue in your relationship. Right. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04Um then I love, you know, I love coming to it from that space of, you know, I'm big on like I see affairs as data. And when we can step back from the blame in either way, because in both of these instances, you know, the women that were coming to me who I wrote those previous episodes for, they were blaming, you know, themselves for having the affair, shaming and hating themselves for making that choice. In this instance, uh, you know, with these other women whose partners have had the affair, similar to you, they're blaming themselves. I must have done something. I must have not been enough. And that's really the call in this episode is to catch the blame, to notice the brain's desire to spin in those mental games of blame and drama and to try and escape really ultimately the feelings and the deeper work of coming down into feelings. I mean, when you describe what it was like for you to finally start sitting in your loneliness to acknowledge how deeply lonely you were and to trace that all the way back into your childhood, I feel like that work that you did of sitting with yourself in your loneliness was what finally allowed you when we when you met me and we were dating to be like, no, this is my boundary. You clearly knew your needs, your wants, and your boundaries. And the magic of that is that in our relationship dynamic, um, I would say I was still the more, I would say I was the insecurely attached partner for sure. We know this. This is not hidden knowledge. I've talked about this on the podcast before. And you were the secure attachment in the dynamic. And by you being securely attached to yourself, it was such a stabilizing force in our relationship that no matter how much I moved, because you had that secure attachment to self, it actually allowed me to hone and learn what I needed and what I wanted more quickly because you weren't always just adjusting and being whatever you thought I wanted you to be.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, and just just to keep this pretty face and great ass.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you know.
SPEAKER_04That's a bonus. It's a bonus.
SPEAKER_00That's bad.
SPEAKER_04You were you were never really tempted. I I know you. You were never tempted to give up your that's that that was the huge gift of all the work you had put in before meeting me. Is even when I was super pretty and beautiful and a lot of other pieces, just someone you deeply loved and knew, and you were not going to move away.
SPEAKER_00No, not from who I needed to be for myself. You know, uh who I needed to be for myself was more important than who I needed to be to keep a relationship or to enter even even enter a relationship. I would not reduce who I was at the core just to meet somebody. That wasn't a viable option. Anymore. You know, as before, I would have been like, okay, yeah, I'll wear polos and slacks every day.
SPEAKER_04If that's what you like.
SPEAKER_00If that's what you like, sure. I'll watch college football, whatever, whatever the situation would call it for, I would be able to maneuver myself or, you know, adapt. Emulate, you know, what that need was.
SPEAKER_04And I think it it also comes back to that we are just like also solidly a very good match, you know, values-wise, um personality-wise, level of attraction and connection and physical intimacy, like all of that is a really beautiful match. And that's that's I think what really gets lost when the affair becomes the focus, is all this other data of examining and really understanding okay, what else was here that is all a part of this ecosystem that this affair has come out of. And that's really what I hope this episode does is for, especially from the angle of someone who is a partner has had the affair, is recognizing, hopefully, from your experience and your story, the immense potential that is there when we come back and ground into connection with ourself, even in that moment, even in the pull to abandon self to try and save the relationship, or um, you know, all the different things that your brain goes through. It's ultimately being able to come back to what do I really want and need? And is it actually with this person, regardless of who's to blame or what has happened, or who's had the affair?
SPEAKER_00I mean, regardless, you know, you have to come through with who you are and what you need. Um, and if that relationship is no longer viable, and you you need to be okay with that because that's what you need. Right? You have to just, yeah, I can't have that relationship anymore because this is what I need, you know, and make that a growth. Don't just say, I hate them or hate them and no. It's more like I love me and no. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's that moment where you stop going, I'm I'm to blame. That's where you really get to step in that power of like, this affair is not my fault. You have the grace of seeing yourself, even eventually seeing them, all the factors that led to this moment. And ultimately moving yourself beyond that betrayal into what gets to be your life from here on out. And for some people, I do want to acknowledge that may be actually, you know, maybe that affair is the catalyst that wakes both people up and it brings you closer and together. That's absolutely, you know, I know that was not the case in your relationship. It just, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I've seen that work in other relationships as well, you know. Um you just have to you have to make sure that it's it's in your heart, you know, not not not just running through your brain, this is the answer because whatever says so. Um this is the answer because I you know feel this here, you know, in in myself. Um and then you can move a lot more freely from there. You know, you can really trust that those decisions are based on something and not just anger or resentment. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Babe, thank you for being on the podcast.
SPEAKER_03It's my pleasure.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, everyone. Y'all, thank you for joining us on this episode. You guys know the drill. You know where to find me, you know where to connect in the community on the 90 minutes on the one-on-ones. Go find me there. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go snuggle with Joe for a little bit. All right, y'all. See you next week. Bye bye.