Hey love, quick heads up. What you're hearing is just the preview of this week's episode. To get the full fire, plus behind-the-scenes voice notes, my written posts, and even the chance to jump into the conversation in the comments section, head over to Stay Orgo on Substack and become a paid subscriber. Now, let's dive in. Welcome to the Stay Orgo podcast, where we're changing the dialogue around divorce so that no woman ever stays in her marriage out of fear. Get ready to dispel myths, learn life-changing tools, and build a solid foundation in yourself from which to make your decision. And now your host, me, Britta Joe. Welcome back, my loves. And from those concepts, created not only a very deep and soulful curriculum that my women are walking through together this entire year with each other, but specifically some assessments. This is the first time in my work I have ever figured out creating an assessment specifically for strong ground in their marriage, strong ground in their personal lives. And then from those assessments, helping them figure out from there where they need to be strengthening that ground through a core framework that I've built. This is really big for me, y'all. As you know, as I was talking in the last episode, getting ADHD medication, being able to just see things in a little bit of a bigger format. And a big part of that has been because I am noticing more and more. I would say at this point for me, it is a strong belief that it is super difficult, if not impossible, to build a healthy life on a foundation of dysfunction or self-abandonment. And that's why last week I also talked about the first section that we are focusing on in the community, which is an area called connection. That is the first pillar that I've built in this framework that I'm using this year called Core for my women in the community. And this connecting that is a work of anchoring down into your inner truth and identity. And at the end of that episode, I teased a little bit that I would be bringing an amazing guest in to talk about her personal journey. And a journey that I think highlights so beautifully what really connecting down deeply into yourself, into that self-truth, into that internal anchor that so many of us have been disconnected from. What doing that can set off the ripples that it can create out into your life and into your marriage? So I am going to be speaking with a woman that is actually has been in my stay or go community since July of 2025. And I will be calling her Sam. And I am deeply honored that I have been able to get to watch her do this very hard and very holy work of returning to her own soul throughout these last seven, eight, nine months in the community and getting to go step by step with her through watching her go on this journey and how it unfolded in some really surprising ways in the commitment to herself really becoming a catalyst for a total renovation of her marriage. So, with that said, Sam, I am so glad that you are here to share this story of your own personal homecoming with us. Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. I am thrilled to be here.
SPEAKER_03I am too, I am too. And how at the time, for a while in the community, I'd been feeling like, ah, man, you know, just the nature of my work. There tends to be a lot of women that come into the community that are leaning more towards the go side. And you specifically, especially even after you joined the community, were like, Where are all my stay girls? Do you remember that? I do. I remember the email. Yes. Yes. You specifically emailed being like, so, like, where are all the stay girls? And me personally reaching back out to you. Um, and it would part of it was that I think I'd even had a woman that was staying in the community that had like just finished in the community and left, like right before you entered. And so I left you this pretty open, transparent message where I was like, hey, for some reason, my message tends to resonate more with women that are going. It's something that I just, you know, just is what it is. And I've seen something in you that I love, like just straight out the gate, there was a spark in you. And I was like, there's still stuff here for you if you want to stay. I also, you know, totally get it if you want something completely more tailored to that side. And I was really impressed, like genuinely blown away at how you took that invitation from me, even knowing, okay, maybe everything in here isn't going to like completely fit my journey. And instead of that causing you to like step back, which now that I know you, Sam, I'm like, of course, you didn't step back. You're like, I'm here. This is my community. Like, yes, I'm in. Um, you stayed. And not only did you stay, you have had a huge impact in the community, just tenaciously learning and being fascinated and exploring and sharing, and even ending up attending the retreat that we did last October. Yeah, which was absolutely magic. I just really got to see you dive in with both feet. And one of the things that that just drove home for me was the level of connection that you had to have and develop with yourself, right? When you're in a group of women who are going through something that's kind of the opposite of your journey in some ways, for sure, right? That are getting on calls, talking about empowerment through leaving. You really have to be developing a pretty strong connection and foundation within yourself. So I would love for you to talk a little bit, just starting there with what that was like for you coming into the community and feeling like you were in a different group somewhat.
SPEAKER_00I knew that I got so much of that other language from the world. And so much was, have you tried everything? And I wanted basically, I think, just to have the option. And just to have the option, like, if this does not work, like there are people who are still gonna love me and celebrate me and see my potential, no matter what happens, no matter if I stay or go. And I think that in some ways, society or whatever, like it wouldn't be a failure in this community either way. It would be celebrated, it was honored. It was much more about the journey, and it was always much more about the journey than it was about the decision. So I think for me, especially listening to all of your podcasts that really honed in on the soul call, that it became listening and following your soul call, like that connection to yourself. And so for me, this community's always been bigger than just the decision.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that's one of the things I just love the most about you because you picked up on that depth from the very beginning and you didn't let kind of the surface idea, right? Of like, oh, maybe I don't look, my journey doesn't look the same as everybody to like stop you from still doing the very, very deep, soulful work with, like you said, other women that were gonna love you in no matter what, you know, part of the journey or whichever way your journey was going. So I like cannot thank you enough for coming on the podcast and sharing that perspective because it is very unique to you. It is something I have watched you do that I have just admired and been so passionate about. And of course, as we have, as I watched you just, I mean, I think of watching the rocket take off yesterday, the Artemis II that's headed up into the moon. Like, Sam, that was you. You really came in and I think from the beginning, like you said, knew the soul of my work that yes, the container is through the lens of stay or go, but the heart and soul is this deep connection with yourself. And it's made me so excited too. This isn't something we'll talk much about on the podcast, but it's been incredible to watch you coming through your journey. We will get to do some of this in the podcast, just like sharing all of the big insights and takeaways that you have had. And my hope in the future, right, in getting to have you participate in the community, which we'll talk about at the very end of this episode, is to have more of those resources for women that find themselves more in a stay space, but unhappy in the stay space, right? And really needing the considering space in a non-judgmental, like whatever you want, we've got your back, babe. We just want you to have that connection to yourself first and foremost.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I definitely felt that. And I do feel that it was the universe that the timing that I came into the community with especially complex PTSD, uh, nonviolent communication, parts work, it really provided me a container to really look at myself to, because so much of this, and you've talked about it on your podcast, is I whether I stay in this relationship or am in a different relationship or any relationship in my life, I want to be congruent, I want to have integrity, and I want to bring my best self, my fullest self into all of my relationships. And I saw in some ways how I wasn't doing that, particularly in my marriage, and through the tools and through the container, especially through the community, I was just able to become more fully myself. Mm-hmm. Just like that rocket ship.
SPEAKER_03So I want you to tell us a little bit, coming back to this idea, you know, part of why I'm so excited to have you on is because your perspective is it's different than any of the other women I've interviewed on the podcast before. Um, because in your current situation, you have decided to stay. We're gonna talk more about the details of what that moment was like and how intense that was. It was so beautiful getting to be in the community watching you go through that process. But one of the things you had said when we were talking about your story is that your story really isn't about a bad marriage or a bad man. And that is so um, it is kind of unique. I know you've you've seen in the community a lot of other women's stories with men that maybe, you know, they the marriage was entered into not really knowing each other, or, you know, I got married after knowing my spouse three months, but yours was a little different, right? So tell us how the story is different for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think uh we had a lot of baggage, both of us, from our history, and we both were really trying to work on it. We he had started writing me letters back when we were dating. Um, letters became a way for us to kind of communicate with each other without all of the reactivity of sometimes those conversations. And we tried therapy like several times, and it still just was not we weren't able to like when you talk about complex PTSD, when we were in conflict, it felt like we were running around with knives and uh, you know, kids in a pitch dark house, and it was like, how can we be working so hard on this? And I remember posting in the community, is it just because we are so different? And a lot of times when we had conflict, it would be more about how I was communicating my wants or my needs. And I just I didn't understand. I thought that I was being clear, yet I didn't have the framework and the tools completely yet. I had tools, but they weren't necessarily the tools that I needed in the situation, and so I think part of it too was I thought that my reactivity was proof that our marriage was not good. And it was more that my nervous system was still terrified. And in a lot of ways, I think his was too. And so a huge part of this, and I think we'll get more into it, was also the somatic piece. And I've been on a journey of discovery, of learning how to regulate my nervous system as well. So I'm not as reactive to him or to anything that I can choose my response. I can show up the way that I want to show up instead of just reacting to things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I loved you using the example of tools because as I'm thinking through, you know, you and your husband, you've it's been so lovely to get to see so much of the process for you. And yeah, in your instance, it really felt like you said two people who deeply loved each other, you know, and built a relationship off of that love, but were given like, you know, a saw when you needed a hammer in that sense. So you're trying to nail the nails to build the house, and all you have is a saw, and you're wondering why everybody's getting cut up, and and I want you to speak a little bit to how traumatic that really does feel when you are trying, trying, trying, and it it it is like uh, I you know, you knew it was good in the beginning. You you felt love for each other, and yet how has this distance happened? How is the house feeling like it's falling apart? Just so much confusion, yes?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the huge part, and part of this was my inner and outer critic that I developed growing up from seeing it modeled and witnessed to me is I felt that my tone was always the focus, like how I was expressing myself. It wasn't about what I was expressing or what I needed. It was about, well, can you just say it a different way? Or you're like, I can't, like, please stop talking to me like that. And I was like, what am I doing? Like, I thought that I was being clear. And so my critic actually got louder, not because it was necessarily being attacked, but because I was being redirected away from what I actually needed. And I think there was a part of it too that came up. Like, I was terrified that if I was wrong, if I admitted that maybe I wasn't expressing myself the best way, that I was unlovable. So then it all became about him.
SPEAKER_03Like he he made it about me, I made it about him, and we just it's such it's yours, is such an example of just what CPTSD not understood, not managed, it just running around after each other, and both people are getting terribly um triggered and in emotional flashbacks for most of it. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, neither of us felt safe. And because safety for both of us, I think, meant different things. Mine meant meant engaging more in the conversation and the conflict, and his meant more trying to fix things and make things better, but not by having a conversation, by acts of service or this or that. But I was like, we're not actually talking about the issues at hand. And so um, as our pastor actually kind of told him, we needed to a little bit learn to speak each other's language. And I I don't love the love languages, don't get me wrong there, but language of how we are trying to communicate and show each other that we love each other and giving in and receiving in a way that we could both see and receive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and with a much deeper, I think the reason once again, the love languages are just like another tool, but I see that as a more like surface-y tool of like, here's the things you can do. Rather than, as you know, from the pod, uh not from the podcast, from the work we've done in the community and specifically the model, like you have to have like deep thoughts and feelings underlying that. And I think that's where nonviolent communication, CPTSD work, understanding more about your nervous system regulation, your own childhood triggers all kind of finally brought in a foundation that could get you guys down into the heart instead of just continuing to activate up on the surface.
SPEAKER_00And in a lot of ways, it was really good. Like his parents had divorced um back actually when we were dating. And so we we didn't have, you know, like he's told me that he thought, you know, we didn't have drinking, we didn't have um a like real profound abuse. We didn't have like there were a lot of things that seemed like they should have been good enough. And for me to keep saying, I I mean, I had even told my therapist at the time, like, am I looking for perfection? But I knew in my heart of hearts and soul that something was still like there was more possible. I knew that there was more possible. I didn't know for sure if it would be with him, and but I knew that I was building capacity in myself for more, and I also wanted him to be free to if his capacity would be better fulfilled with someone else, that he could have that too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that just gets at the heart of like it's so much deeper as you start doing this work than the stairgo. You know, it becomes, it does, it becomes about capacity, it becomes about desire, it becomes about a soul call. I really watched you have this soul call that was like, there's more, and not be able to quiet that anymore. Um, so on this, on this specific episode, I want to do this interview differently than I've done any of my previous um wonderful guests that I've gotten to have on, specifically women getting to talk about their journeys. Because one of the things that I have watched you do and been just so in love with is how throughout your entire journey, um, your brain and mind kind of work similar similarly, Sam. You really synthesize a lot of your journey and your process at the same time. And then you're able to like bring it forward as gems that you're sharing, that you're um, you know, being able to kind of bring to the rest of the community. And I wanted in this episode for you to get to share some of those and really get to like land those. Cause as we've talked, I have just the last time we were on a um call together, just like totally vibing, you know, for an hour around like, oh my God, yes, this and this and this. And you've already contributed like multiple different ideas. One of the things, just like a quick peek behind the scenes for all the listeners, like Sam is one of the women in my community that, as we're going through this framework this year, has been like, oh my God, look at it this way. Way? What about, you know, nonviolent communication supporting the core framework? Like she's just an incredible wisdom seeker and wisdom creator from the experiences. So I wanted to kick us off kind of in this section where we just get to vibe about some of the big things that you have pulled from this experience. I wanted us to start with the episode title because this title was something you brought forward when we talked about doing the episode, this idea of exit to expansion. And I just, I am just obsessed with this idea. So I would love for you to get to tell my listeners more about what this idea is that's come out of your journey of exit to expansion.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I am so excited about this because I I was actually just telling a friend this morning that I feel like this is really where your work resonates with me and what drew me in. Because the the question's real. The stay or go question is is real. And it's, I mean, I think that's what I Googled when I found your podcast. Yet it isn't the entirety of what your work is about. Um there is the belief, I feel like we kind of come to saying, if I stay, I'm settling, and if I go, I'm failing. And so it's not about settling or failing.
SPEAKER_03Just slow that down and say that one more time. Cause that like landed in my body. So I want my listeners to hear it again.
SPEAKER_00Say that again. The belief that if I stay, I am settling, and if I go, I'm failing.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. This just painful. That's the stuck feeling. I am in a double bind. It is a loss either way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the idea of expansion, and actually, expansion and abundance came to me on the retreat. So this has been in development for a long time. Is what what's underneath it all is who am I inside this marriage, or who am I? Who was I before it? Who am I becoming? So that fundamentally is the work, the expansive work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And for you, you know, the magic of that exit piece, which we'll go into the details more later in the episode, but like the magic was in focusing on you, and correct me if I'm wrong, it felt like that's what allowed you to be brave enough to fully consider the exit, which like it was almost like watching a star implode. It was like, you know, instead of it becoming a black hole, it like catalyzed and it was like this expansion, correct? That's what you mean by like the exit piece.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think you even, I remember being outside of the house at the retreat, and I think it was on our way that we were leaving, and you just thanked me for being a catalyst in the community. And I feel that the community has been, and you have been a catalyst in my life to fully inhabiting my life while I was in the midst of it. That idea of being fully present, honest about what we need and what I need, what we need, grounded. Yeah, that that fully inhabiting your your my life, that um honestly, authentically, somatically, um, collectively too, because I do think the collective piece really helped me to having those mirrors and those windows helped enormously.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I love you bringing this up because for a lot of women, you're kind of just in the robot phase, right? The, you know, you're just kind of treading water. The survival phrase phase. Yeah, rather than the like, I'm inhabiting my life. So can you just pop us back to like what what kind of help do you c make that job like move out of robot into more embodied, actually, like, who am I? What am I wanting? Who am I becoming? Those kind of level of questions.
SPEAKER_00Um well, you remember the hair dye incident, but I would say the what went with that was I decided to go and spend the night somewhere else because I knew I just needed to process what was going on. And then I brought my complex PTSD book with me. And that's where I like I just I sat on the floor um and was reading about the outer critic and the inner critic, and I was just bawling. I was just crying, crying, crying because I there was just yeah, just such an outer critic, inner critic just realization that I had lived with um, I think part of it was my upbringing, part of it I think was societal too.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00And patriarchal and systems.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I was so praised and celebrated for what I could do and well, and what I could do and what I could accomplish.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so that so then when I started learning about nonviolent communication, and I think the key with that and with the model is learning about like, okay, first observing a situation and not judging it and just observing what's going on. And then what are my feelings about it? My feelings, you know, not telling you what you have to think or feel, but how do I feel about it? And then what are my needs in this situation? And then do I even need to request anything? Like sometimes it's just getting clear. Like, what's the situation? What do I feel about it? Like, what do I need? Can I meet my own needs in this situation?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I think getting clear on those things and realizing the power, I think so often we think that feelings are so woo and not powerful. Like, we need to be so concise and so direct. And just really going into myself and being like, what do I feel about that? Well, like, what are actual feelings and what aren't things that like reactions, but what are my feelings? And for me, anger actually, and I know that this is somewhat different than other women. Um, anger kind of became a go-to, partially as an Enneagram eight, but anger became kind of an easier emotion. It was less vulnerable for me in some ways. But it was armored anger, it was armored directness because I wasn't sharing the vulnerability, the grief, like so much grief. I've done like grief work for years, but realizing just even grief work around knowing that I didn't know how to communicate my own needs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Ugh, yeah. Yeah. I it's such a gift for me to get to do this episode with you because it's also allowing me to kind of look back at watching you go through this. And I'm seeing, you know, for my listeners that are like, what's the model? What's NBC? Like that, that's what we were, that's what I was teaching. That's what I teach in the community. And it's like in you getting some of these more intellectual tools that kind of gave you like the container or the framework or the language to understand your own internal experience. It started to create the safety to feel again, to admit, to start being honest about how overwhelmed many of us feel deep down inside. Like you said, I don't even know what my needs are. I don't know how I'm feeling half the time. And how am I supposed to communicate that to this other person while trying to manage work, life, school, potentially children, pets, all of it, right? It's a oh, it's a lot. It's a lot for a human to experience. So one of the things that I think your story is just incredible for illustrating, is inherent in the idea of the title, you know, Exit to Expansion. Like there is this beautiful paradox encapsulated in that idea. Most people would not think that an exit, um, especially the type that we're talking about, is that, you know, you went to exit and actually it led to an expansion within the marriage. There's the more, you know, less paradoxical, like I'm going to exit my marriage and expand into, you know, growth. But I'd love for you to speak to more of what that paradox looked looked like for you within the in exiting, it actually led to an expansion within the marriage.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think that that brings me a little bit back to your episode right before I had the conversation with him. Like just you being able to, and it it didn't just happen on that on that podcast. It had happened. It was building. It was building that you have an amazing capacity to see women's brilliance in the community. And you just continued to just mirror that and call that out in me. And at that point in the marriage, because things had got so rocky and we just were not communicating with each other, he could appreciate me at for what I did in the marriage, for what what kind of mom I was, things like that. But there really stopped being seeing, appreciating me for who I am as a unique person and woman. And I was like, no, I deserve more. You deserve more. And so that was really the crux of my decision. Like, and I I started asking for that. And I was like, everyone deserves this, and I deserve this.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, it makes me want, it makes me so emotional, you talking about that, because I remember distinctly watching you start making that jump. And this was before I knew it was going to lead you to an expansion in the marriage. And all of us in the community just being like, yeah, you deserve this. If this is what you want. And that's, I think, what a lot of your journey in the beginning was was finally like admitting like I want to be loved for me. I want to be seen and like really known and loved, not it, like you said, not for what I can do. That's that's so what the systems and the patriarchy has taught us, right? I have to earn my love. I have to earn respect or being seen. And you were like at this deep fundamental level with the person that's gonna be my partner. That's kind of the stepping out of the robotic into the what do I really feel and want to experience in life. And I remember watching you identify it and kind of in my body, like the deep breath in of like, okay, like I know what's gonna come next because she's she's gonna, you know, if she's brave enough, she's gonna make that request and we'll we'll see what happens from there. So we'll talk about that part later in the episode, but wow, right? Such a, I mean, deeply intense moment to be brave enough to broach the subject of exit when deep down vulnerably, what you're wanting so deeply is to be seen. Yes. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and several women m reached out to me from the community because they knew I don't even think in that moment, like I remember being on that call and me saying, I I think that I had said something about like he's seeing this as selfish, and I was like, this is not selfish, and you saying that, and then realizing it's way bigger than this. Yes, and then people reaching out to me and being like, Okay, there's more here. I'm not searching for something that's that's too big or too out there. I'm not searching for perfection. I I'm I want to be seen and known and loved. So yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Um, I'd love for you. You are one of my favorites in the community for just like when you find a tool that works for you, you vibe it hard. I mean, and that's been so incredible. You are the reason EFT tapping is something that we'll be actually, you know, diving into and teaching in the community because you are the one that introduced it to me last year. You are the one that was like, hey, Britta, this, try it out. And I tried it out and I was like, holy shit, this is amazing. This really works. Um, so I'd love for you to just highlight for some of the women listening, what are some of the tools that were just completely life-changing for you in your journey so far?
SPEAKER_00I do think it was partially Jane. Um, Jane and I kind of were vibing back and forth about it. So um, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_03And when she says Jane, she's talking about another woman in the community, the one we had in the podcast, who um that's the episode divorcing a good guy. That's Jane. Yeah. So you had a deep connection with one of the women in the community that also, I mean, Jane also in the community was just like synthesizing a ton of her stuff as well.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00I think for me, that was my entry ramp into knowing that I needed more somatic tools. And it gave me an opportunity, and you and I even vibed about it that like when we're in a flashback, I remember coming back from my therapist and feeling like, ugh, if I admit fault, if I'm, you know, imperfect, can I be loved? And some imperfections are fine, but other ones are really triggering. And we were supposed to go somewhere that evening, and I was like, ugh, what do I do to regulate myself? And it's neat because after I've done it now for a while, I don't necessarily need to use um AI to help me, but I would put in a situation into AI, and you know, I'm feeling this, and it would help me with a tapping protocol. And so for me, just that getting back and grounding into myself and those energy meridians, it it was a it has been a reset. And the the exciting part for me too is I've been able to bring that into my classroom as well. And so I just I see the power of teaching not just other women, but our, you know, generations and communities tools to be able to regulate themselves. And I think the other thing I love about it is it's something that you can do yourself or you can do it with other people at school. You know, we started doing it with protocols or scripts, and now, you know, the kids just say, like, we're really excited about this, but we still really want to learn. And it's exciting for me just to see how what they realize they want and in their heart of hearts, and just for them to identify with their own feelings and needs too. And I think getting back to what we talked about, you know, feelings and needs, like your feelings aren't wrong. Your feelings are feelings, you know? And how do we want to continue? We're feeling that. Okay. Do we want to continue in that? What do we want that to look like? Where are we going from here?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the it's I love you mentioning putting in your own protocols because that idea, you gave me that one. And I can remember a moment where I was like, I think I haven't even talked about it on the podcast. Yes. I swear I had an episode where I was like, I had to stop, Joe had to go into the restaurant, and I had to tap. And it was at a time in my life where as much as I had the information around CPTSD, I knew I was in an emotional flashback. I did not have the tool that could get me back into the operating system of my body. And that was what EFT tapping was able to do for me. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And another tool that has actually been really profound for me, also because it led me to another source of information and ongoing learning is the drama triangle and the empowerment dynamic to see how, and um, my partner, my husband, at one point, I think actually saw this in me too, that in ways that I had been perhaps more armored directness or whatever, he finally was able to see the compassion and the justice and what I wanted and what I was what I was trying to bring forth, he was seeing more my intentions instead of getting caught up in the negativity or yes. And so I think for me, seeing how the victim in the drama triangle goes to the creator and the rescuer goes to the coach and the persecutor goes to the challenger, instead of being a persecutor, I finally, you know, was able to learn how to be a challenger because I wasn't challenging them. I was challenging just a stealthy dynamic to the system.
SPEAKER_03Yes. This was one of the biggest things for you because you had so I could see you wrestling with the sh the amount of shame that had been kind of tied to your justice sensitivity and your like calling out for more, and others feeling like you were attacking them and you being like, but this deep down inside me feels like it needs to change. So yeah, I really watched you um with those, with that, and then coupled with you know the regulation being able to shift into that more grounded, like, this is important and here's why piece. For sure. Um, I know we'll talk about maybe some other tools as we go further. But one of the things that we had talked about that I wanted you to speak to specifically is, you know, you had talked about how for a lot of people the gap is not just it isn't that it's awareness. The gap is actually this like split second that we have between when we know something and we do it, and how if we don't have um the ability to intercept that, we just are running on old survival patterns that rise up in those moments, which is kind of what you and your husband were in in the beginning, like just running on survival patterns for sure. Correct.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think well, and actually this goes back to what you talked about with your tools and the thin places. So like resentment would build because I wasn't still completely expressing myself. It became more about how I express myself and not not talking about my feelings or my needs. And then it would be venting instead of actually being honest about the underlying deep needs. And so, yeah, like you were saying, like it wasn't a complete failure. It was like a near miss.
SPEAKER_03You guys just near miss near missing. But near missing over and over and over does create this like calcification and frustration. Yeah, yeah, over and over. Um, and I really feel like through the tools, I think for you, NBC2 gave you just it it widened that amount of space where in, you know, the awareness could get bigger and bigger. And then with the awareness, you knew what to do instead of just defaulting to the survival patterns of your coping mechanisms from childhood, and which I know both of you were in intensely because there were so many triggers that you like were inadvertently activating in each other.
SPEAKER_00For sure. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, and I think for me to learning, you talk about this and um the Heidi Preebee, her videos have been instrumental in just learning about differentiation. And sometimes we have talked about how sometimes we're so different. I I think you were talking on a coaching call recently. We're so different, we're on different countries, different planets, and it's not fair to expect the other person to be, you know, on our In our country or planet, be and it's just it's not fair anymore. However, there are some times and ways that like we're not going to see the world exactly the same. Is there a way that we can appreciate that about each other? Is there a way that certain needs or wants or desires can be met outside of the relationship in other communities or other relationships? And so I think, yes, I wanted and needed to be valued for who I am, but I also have always wanted and needed to not be the be-all end-all at the same time for my partner. And I didn't expect my partner to be that. And I so I think in some ways that almost kind of postponed the decision, yet at the same time, now has helped me to know what differentiate, like high skill, high compatibility, as we've built our skills and realized in which ways we're compatible. It's given some opportunities for both of us to grow in our own ways and to appreciate that about each other.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for sure. Um, this makes me think so much when you said the whole different countries piece. I feel like for a long time in your journey, you were kind that's what you were trying to discern is like, is it that we're actually, because there are, and you see this in women in the community, there are actually partners where, you know, your partner is actually in a country where he's like, no, I really want the marriage to go back to the 1950s. Like, I really want us to be enmeshed, and I really don't want to like emotionally connect, and I really just want you to like caretake and kind of be that mom role. And my, my contribution will be money and working, or you know, more gender stereotyped roles traditionally. That's what that concept of like when somebody's in that country and wants you to move to that country and you're wanting to live in this country, there's just a okay, well, this is what it is. And I watched you, that was that moment when you were like, is it just that we're too different? And you were saying that a lot, right? Is it just that maybe, you know, the way I communicate and the way he needs to be communicated with just isn't going to be a fit. Um, so I'm excited when we get into the more personal part of your story to really dive into how that like was very surprisingly not the case. Um for sure. But before we go there, one of the other pieces that I also have really, really loved and that's been like this is one of the things I love the most. You know, I created the community as a like, this is for, you know, women um that are going through this. And it has been an incredible process for me on the other side to grow through it as well. Like I'm realizing it's just as much for the women that come in as it is for me, getting to facilitate and hold that space. And I grow so much and learn from all of you. And one of the ways that I've loved growing from you is, you know, you know, I come from a pretty traumatic uh experience with religion in my past and getting to have you come in from a different perspective. And so I'd love for you to get to share, you know, what the role of spirituality has kind of had in your journey as well, how that has folded in as well. Because I think that's a really unique perspective that I cannot share from that, you know, from that viewpoint. And that I really haven't had anybody else in my community or on the podcast be able to share.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I really enjoyed talking about this even at the retreat with you and Quinn. I think for me, I have seen faith as both wounding and belonging. And how it has also provided a community for me, particularly in the church that we're a part of now. I would say for me, I there was one point that my pastor had said that she feels that believes that marriage is sacred. And I was like, ooh, how am I gonna take this with the whole 50-year marriage myth, you know, and like what am I gonna do with this? And I and I I did not actually, well, I had talked to her early on in this process, but I really needed to come to terms with myself that God is going to, or you know, your higher power, the universe is going to be calling me towards love and what is most loving for me, and what is most loving for him, what is most loving for our family. And that just never went away. The idea that there's no, like, God who is love to me is not going to be calling me to anything that's gonna limit my capacity for abundance and expansion. And so for me, it became like this is a godly thing to do because it allowed it's the most loving thing to do.
SPEAKER_03And so that was just and I think too, I'm as you're sharing this, I'm like part of where I think that connected in the spirituality was this collective of women that you were with where you were feeling so much love. It it like it's one of the biggest things that this year I've been landing in more is really trying, and I'm trying to do it too in the community, like helping my women understand that it's okay to exist in paradox. And that's that paradox of like marriage is sacred, and the most loving thing I can do is consider exiting it. Exactly. Like exactly. Holy cow, that is a whole other level. That's the level of work you were you were doing.
SPEAKER_00And I and I really truly, truly think, and I think that's part of why I so wanted to be on this podcast is I want women to know, women who love God, women who love their faith, to know that maybe you really need to eventually, when you're ready, have the really tough conversation and maybe it will transform everything. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's that's why I was like, we cannot not talk about this because it's been amazing to see you. It's just once again, one of the things that I love so much about you and the journey you've been on is seeing you hold very big paradoxes. The paradox of joining a community with a bunch of women who are all kind of leaning a little bit more going when you're the one staying, and still doing, you know, through that paradox, finding that gorgeous middle ground that gets created through the tension of holding those opposites.
SPEAKER_00Same thing with the So last summer, I wasn't I I I've preached at my church for probably almost 10 years now. And we have an amazing woman who is our pastor, and I wasn't gonna preach this last summer because things were, you know, falling apart and flux around me. And then I did tell her, like, I want to, I want to try it. And I actually preached about the binary and letting go of the binary. And I feel like that's really what we're talking about. That it doesn't, that's what the paradox is, living in the paradox and not having a binary.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, not having this clear-cut black or white, um, you know, divorce is bad, marriage is good. Yes, being able to come into the gray, which, you know, I love, I feel like that's something that you have been able through your journey with faith to retain that was in my particular flavor of religion completely taken, you know. And there are, in my case, like religion, that religion was very much about creating a binary and insisting that there has to be a binary and that God actually wants, you know, that this is the right and the wrong and sin and and so it was just been so healing, I think, in many ways for me to be able to see you going through that process and also in my own ways, you know, reconnect with spirituality, reconnect with ideas of faith and words that, you know, are slowly kind of being able to be reclaimed by me in this gray of, yeah, living. And I we won't go too much into this, but man, do I think our world needs more discussion, more people that can be like it is not a binary human experience is very much in the gray. And the more that we can hold space for that and have capacity in our own nervous systems to be with others in the difficult, complex, overwhelming at times feelings that are in the middle gray, the more human, the more compassionate, the more love we'll be able to have.
SPEAKER_00And to his credit, like my husband had actually I had been much more fundamentalistic for a while. Like I was very black and white. Yes, very black and white for a while. So he had started his deconstruction actually before me. And I think that it was really an important part of our journey that he was able to not be as black and white in his faith, and that has helped me. I know that sometimes unfundamentalist people can become kind of fundamentalistic about their unfundamentalism, but I think just the faith, the faith journey and learning to basically learning that love is God is love and the priority is love and what is the most loving has been instrumental both in my faith journey and in the marriage. Yeah, so beautiful.
SPEAKER_03So I want to take you now into more of the personal part where we get to actually talk about that moment with your husband. But before we do that, I want to just take a little bit before we do to just give you a chance to kind of sum up for the women listening, like what you most want them to know before we go into that part of the episode. Just, you know, thinking of maybe a woman listening similar to you, what would you want her most to know?
SPEAKER_00I would say basically not to be afraid of leaning into your dreams for yourself, your dreams for your relationships, that you don't have to have it all figured out. That continuing to that the the process is the progress, and that living in the paradox, continuing to choose yourself ultimately can be what is choosing everyone, choosing love for everyone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for sure. So I'm so excited because I feel like in this next section, we're gonna get to talk about how you've seen that actually come to pass. Um so I want you to