Welcome to the Stay or Go podcast, where we're changing the dialogue around divorce so that no woman ever stays in her marriage out of fear. Get ready to dispel myths, learn life-changing tools, and build a solid foundation in yourself from which to make your decision. And now your host, me, Britta Joe. Okay, welcome back this week. I swear you guys can hear whenever I'm gonna be interviewing somebody on the podcast because my voice gets like super high and squealy. Because I just want to like I'm so, so excited to welcome another incredible woman that I'm going to introduce you guys to today on the podcast. Um, she is really like special in my journey as well. She's one of the first people I have met through Substack, since moving to Substack. Um, she has a beautiful Substack called The Rooted Weaver, where she talks about weaving her new life through soul alignment, motherhood, land regeneration, and community. And she is doing all of that post-divorce. And I think we met because she had commented on one of my posts, and I went over to her site and just started reading her work. And y'all, I felt like I'd found like a real life Clarissa Pinkola Estes. Like I was like, oh, this human, this human. And there were, I remember distinctly, there were a couple of articles on a day where I was just really struggling. I'd opened up my phone and turned to her work, and they were just like so soul-filling for me that I reached out to her. Um, we will link those two posts in the show notes. Um, and yeah, I just reached out to her and I was like, you beautiful human you, tell me more about your story. Would you potentially like to be on the podcast? Because I really want to expose you to my women. Um, along with that, I really can't recommend enough subscribing to her and her writing, as her writing is so deeply soul-feeling when you read it. And that's something I want so many of you to be exposed to more. Also, she has been sharing on her Substack this amazing journey she's on, which is currently renovating an 1850s farmhouse. Um, her post where she ripped out all of the carpet and everything, just was like, ugh, it made me really excited for her along with her little daughter. So we got to hang out before we did this episode and kind of drop in together, figure out what we were gonna talk about, and her story is even more inspiring than I had realized. So I am very giddy and excited to introduce her to you all today and to welcome you, Vanessa, to the podcast.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. Thank you. I am honestly fangirling a little bit because I had been following you. I don't know. I I had already separated from my husband and moved to New York, but um was in the thick of it in terms of separation and found your podcast and then started listening to previous ones and then following you all the time. And so when you commented on one of my sub talks, I was like, oh my God. So yeah, I say all that's to say it's a huge honor to be here. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that I think that is the magic of just the gift of the podcast is it's so me that when other women relate to it so fully and then we meet, it's like we're soul sisters. Because it's you know, it's like you're picking up on this vibe, we must be on the same wavelength and living, you know, pretty big, different lives. So I'm very excited to get to share more of your story with all of my listeners as well. Because if we've got this vibe, I'm sure many of them are gonna feel that with you too. So before we just dive right into your story, I love that we're gonna take your story a little bit chronologically. But before we kind of go back into the beginning and your childhood, which are important keys to your story, just like they are for all of us. I also thought when I was thinking of, you know, what I would love my listeners to hear from you, one of the things that I've been noticing the most recently in women in my community and women that I'm working with, is more and more I'm noticing they're going through their processes and they're wanting to share them. They're wanting to have their voice go out into the world and have an impact in helping other women feel less alone. So you are unique in that space because you're someone who already is doing that through your Substack. And I would love for you to share what drew you into that space of sharing and writing on Substack around your journey.
SPEAKER_04So I've always been what I would consider a writer. Uh, and that's always been something I've been good at, not so much at math, um, but always good at at writing. And, you know, I've been trained professionally and, you know, when I was at the State Department and otherwise, and when I had always dreamed of being able to write publicly in some way, I thought maybe I'd write a book or something. And uh when I when I moved last January and took my daughter up to Ithaca, which is about six hours north of where I was living in the Shindo Valley, uh, I just started a Word doc or Google doc and started just writing. And um it felt so good. And I I knew I wanted to share in some way, but I was very shy about it. I didn't really know how to go about it. One of my dear friends, Dana Carlson, she's a brilliant writer, editor, and I sent her my work and she said, V, you gotta sign up on Substack. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. You know, and and I hemmed and hawed on over, and then I finally did and got such a huge reception, mostly from friends and family on Facebook, let's be honest. But um, it's still, you know, people were reaching out to me um in my kind of outer network that they had gone through similar experiences and asking me questions, and I thought, oh, okay, this is important. Um, and so, you know, we'll get into this, but when once I left my job as well, it was kind of as if I was just in this kind of chronic state of survival last year. And so emotions were kind of right up here, and it was easy to just kind of open the well and have the writing pour out. Um, so that's that's where it came from. But then I would say also, and I know we'll also touch on this with my sobriety, it has been a big part of my journey and sharing your experience, strength, and hope with others is how you recover, basically how you continue to recover. And so when I was doing my annual like reflection, like probably many of us that the in the new year, like what I wrote down specifically, almost in regard to your show in particular, was I want to be of service to other women out there because I was so trapped. I mean, for almost six years, I I was so alone that until your podcast, I didn't know of what I was experiencing or that other women were experiencing it. And if there was anything I could do to yeah, share my voice and my experience to help others, then I was gonna do it.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I love you. The word that came up when you were sharing all of this is I was like, oh, the process of sharing your journey becomes its own cathartic piece. And I loved, I didn't know that that you just stuck it in a Google Doc. That's I love it. I also love that going to your friend who was the editor, it's sometimes that's what it takes. It takes another woman seeing our work and be like, no, no, no, this matters. Having that other woman reflect back gave you the courage to like, okay, I'm gonna put it out there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I've found most there's wonderful when men that've been in my life as well, but um, yeah, women seem to kind of give you that next wrong on the ladder sometimes. We need to keep going.
SPEAKER_00Um you gotta say, just like four more inches, reach a little bit further.
SPEAKER_04Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_00So beautiful, beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I just had to get that piece in because I'm noticing it more and more. This trend of women, like, okay, yes, I've gone through my journey, but like what's next I want to share. I even love you hearing more about how uh, and I'm so excited to talk about this with your recovery process with sobriety, that that is an integral part of the process there is sharing while you're going through it. So cannot wait to get into that piece. To kick us off, though, I when we were talking previously, coming up with this episode, one of the things I really appreciated you sharing and that I'm I try to be very transparent about too on my podcast is childhood, you know, and that the things we go through in childhood don't just magically resolve themselves when we grow up or become adults, like they still have a lasting impact on us. So I would love for you to take us back into maybe some of the key things that happened when you were a kid that had impacts that, you know, in young adulthood and then getting married, we will talk about and kind of thread through later.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So I mean, I've done lots of psychoanalysis with myself of like what, why, why am I losing? You know, um, best I can tell. Um, so I grew up in the suburbs of of DC and Maryland, and I had two parents from very different backgrounds. My mom was from upstate New York, um, more of a kind of a rural uh background, strong community, healthy family. Um, my father grew up in poverty. Um, they he was Hungarian, his family came over from Hungary. They he basically pulled himself up from bootstraps and his entire family. And, you know, they were both in the federal government. Um, and so we were kind of transplants. Um, and I always noticed a little bit of a difference about me in comparison to others, just in who my parents were, um, what their values were, how I was raised. My mom was a working mom, you know, in comparison to some of the others, etc. Um, and my dad was very like um enigmatic um and powerful and um and in the you know, he was civil rights activist. He was just a strong personality, a wonderful man. And, you know, when I was uh, I don't know, around five or six, I experienced, you know, m molestation by someone within the extended family and didn't tell anyone about it. Um I didn't tell anyone about it until I was 30. So that was a that was a deep wound that sh, you know, definitely shaped a lot of me. And I think I'm still learning waves. Um, and through this divorce, I think I'm I'm really feeling like I'm more healed than I ever was before. Um, but that that is there, that happened.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I just I want to highlight here that that like that secrecy, that feeling of something massive happening when you're really little and not having any framework, adult support, resourcing until later on in your life. I just am like, oh, I am so going through that as well right now. Like finally unpacking in my late 30s what that actually the impact that that had on me as a little kid. So oh, thank you for sharing.
SPEAKER_04And I mean, we could probably have a whole episode. I mean, I you've experienced, I've experienced so many women that I know have have either experienced themselves or know someone. I mean, it's pretty pervasive. And the trauma associated with that that you internalize, you know, it just comes out sideways in so many different ways. Um, and then when my fat my father died when I was 10 um of illness, and that was I mean, it was horrific. There's no other way to describe it. I loved my father dearly. We called him Poppy. And um, you know, he his loss took like stripped away my sense of security, stability. I felt abandoned. I was so angry. You know, it was just, it was, it was it was horrific, you know. And then my mom's like propelled into being a single working mom, two little girls, my sister's two years older than I. Um, and you know, I I was 10, and so, you know, within a few years was a preteen and then teenage, etc. And I really turned to drinking um as a as a coping mechanism. I didn't know that at the time, of course.
SPEAKER_00Um I was like, Yeah, at the time you just kind of think like like you're just going through life. Like, you know, I don't know how much looking back, I didn't think to myself, oh, I've been through big trauma or you know, I've been through you don't understand the impact when you're young, correct?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, I knew that I was carrying around probably more than the average bear, if you will. I felt different. Um, and um and alone and ashamed, you know, that like that shame. I've read a lot of Brene Brown as well. You know, I didn't I didn't know what that was at the time. I mean, I just had no awareness of any of this. But on the surface, I was kind of, you know, an attractive, um, intelligent young woman who kept up my grades. I was in sports, but I liked to party, and that was fine. You know, I it was that was just uh what what like that was just my life. Yeah. And um, and so, you know, fast forward to uh college, I've always been pretty driven. And, you know, September 11 and the Iraq War and all that happened when I was in high school. And so I really was geared towards, you know, I, you know, from DC, it's kind of part of our DNA. So I went towards foreign policy and um was really striving for a powerful career. Um, I had so much like combustion inside that I just kind of propelled myself. But as I was doing that, I was I formed an eating disorder. I um I was drinking a lot, but I was so compartmentalized, I was living dual lives. I mean, no one knew the extent of any of it, to the point that when I was 31, I had lived an incredible life as a as a diplomat, as a conflict advisor, you know, serving abroad in embassies, working in war zones. And when I took time off to get sober and recovery from eating, sort of almost everyone was shocked. I mean, they had no idea that I was experiencing that. And the level of deception that you have to portray.
SPEAKER_00But but that's just so normal. Can we also just normalize that, like I think the vast majority of people are are probably living lives like this where we are just very compartmentalized. Like, this is this is my external facing reality that I have to hold together, my responsible self. And I don't have the tools to cope with all of this pain and the reality of being a human. And so I'm just over here getting by in the ways I can.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, the outside world reinforces that I was meeting my success standards. Yes. While I was dying on the inside. Um, and eventually when I got sober at 31, um, that changed everything, you know, for me. I don't, you know, I don't think that everyone that has trauma becomes an alcoholic. You know, it runs in my family. Um, I'm genetically predisposed towards alcoholism. Um, and and so yeah, it was what they call like lucky winner, you know? And um, and so, but I was very fortunate in that most people that are alcoholics don't get sober. And I have stayed sober and I was able to nip in the bud, I think, yeah, um, my eating disorder at the same time, which also a lot of people are not able to, yeah, go like to be able to have freedom from you know eating disorder and be an alcoholic recovery. And I think it's because I like, you know, I think we all have um positive qualities and then deficiencies or however you want to frame it. I'm I can be super disciplined. If I understand a framework, I will attack it and you know, run with it. And so as soon as I was given a framework, which I love that you do for your listeners and your women, I can understand it, I then I'll do it, you know? Um, and and then just like I'm off to the races. So that doesn't mean that the pain goes away or that you can speed up the healing process. So at least I will stay on the road. Um, yeah. So um I don't know. I don't want to get jumped too far ahead, but that's kind of where where I was at.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. And I I definitely where I'm like most drawn and what I want to hear is that touch point where you realize, okay, the alcohol is it's not working. Like what gets you into the recovery moment?
SPEAKER_04Well, the amount you're consuming.
SPEAKER_01So this is too much.
SPEAKER_04I think I think we've passed the um but no, for me, I you know, I've had what I call like fairy godmothers and and like you know, spiritual aunties along the along my path. And um everyone has their different, you know, line that they cross that kind of propels them towards recovery or not. And I took a sip before I was gonna go to work. And that for me was just too much. And so I called my eight this woman at HR and I told her, and she goes, What are you doing? And called called my therapist, and she had me go to the hospital. I was not in a great mental state. Like the like that I got to that point where I was taking a sip before work. Like I had just come back from you know, from being deployed abroad. I like the drinking and the eating disorder weren't working for me. They weren't like helping me feel better. But that was kind of the tipping point. And I just I was at the the doctor, I'm seeing all these people come in. I'm like, well, what's wrong with me? And she was like, Well, you're an alcoholic. I was like, what? You know, I mean, I just I had never even heard like, I mean, I couldn't, I didn't know that I was an alcoholic. It's so sad. But I I had no awareness. And so you've talked about that labeling and what that and like the power of that, when it's helpful, when it's not. Um, and you know, that was poof a tough pill to swallow. And and, you know, and then I started my my recovery. And uh, and I feel very thankful in a way because, you know, outside of your program or in like when when women are, you know, and men, when we have community, when there's, you know, steps to support you moving through a healing process and just and not just beyond the healing process, but everyday living, because that's what's so difficult is you know, yes, it's getting sober and the initial year or so of being of sober, but then you have to be sober for the rest of your life. Right. Um, and that's when it's really um the rubber hits the road. And, you know, fast forward to I decided that I was diagnosed with PTSD at one of my deployments, got introduced to uh herbal medicine, realized I could walk outside and couldn't point to a tree and know what it was, and just as part of my healing process, started taking walks all the time outside. Uh, nature became hugely transformative for me. And also just being kind of a systems thinker, I was perplexed at why don't I know how to heal myself with plants? Like that knowledge skipped a generation or two. Why don't I know where any of my food is? I don't know how to provide for myself. Like I just felt as if I had all these intellectual skills that were capitalized on, but nothing for me as a human being that was really going to help me in my life. And really, that premise hasn't changed very much where we sit, you know, seven years later. Um, but it it propelled me to leave the State Department and move to Shendo Valley to take basically an internship at Shendo National Park. Um, and I met my ex-husband in the third day that I was there. Um and you on it until you and I talked about that this last episode, you're like, oh, you're at a vulnerable point. And then you met him, and I was like, oh yeah, I was at a vulnerable point.
SPEAKER_01Like super vulnerable point.
SPEAKER_00We just decided like what I've been doing isn't working. Let's do a different direction.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So I was two years sober at that point, but um, but that's still kind of baby sobriety, if you will. I mean, I was still I was still learning how to be an emotionally sober woman. And um, and what that means is taking Accountability for myself, being honest, you know, transparent, you know, doing the next right thing, all those things that equal up to, you know, you not having to go to alcoholism or or food or whatever else it is to be able to live your life. Um so, but I had, and you know, one tenet of all this is kind of keeping your status tree clean and being reflective of yourself and what role you played. And so as I've as I've looked back up my marriage and my relationship, um, that was really difficult for me because I kept wanting to take responsibility for the way that things were. And I do need to take responsibility for my actions and also recognize where what things are out of my control or what boundaries were and all those types of things.
SPEAKER_00You were so new. That's that's the whole vulnerability of that process, is you were so new to delineating between what is mine, what is someone else's. And before we move into, you know, meeting him, I want to come back to just where you were at right before this, because I I think this is a theme that I saw through a lot of your journey of moments of the external world is telling me, you're doing great. This is fine. Like keep going. And yet internally, what my body is saying, what's showing up in that compartmentalized space away from everything is this is not working anymore. So um, can you speak a little bit more to that piece and what that felt like?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, so as a conflict advisory, I was in a in a unique position that I would what's called deploy subnationally. So I would go outside of the Capitol, I would spend weeks at a time on the ground, listening to people, talking to people, trying to identify underlying causes of violence, and then what we call now co-create, but we didn't use that language now. We would basically work together to try and figure out um how what needs to happen in order to reduce the potential for violence. And I'm seeing people that, you know, I'm supposed to be out there as an American helping. I have all these resources. Guess what? They know how to grow their own food, heal their children, put food on their table. And yet, like, I'm not saying that there's not malnutrition out there, that there's not real food shortages. I'm not trying to belittle the reality there. But what I saw was very capable human beings that had rich community around them. And yes, there was violence and strife, but so much of that violence and strife could be linked back to external dynamics that were precipitated by our own government and other governments' role in the broader global economic social system. So I was like, I don't want to be part of this anymore, you know, and and and I just was having lots of dissonance where I've I know I've traveled so many places and I and I I love those experiences, but I was empty inside. You know, I I was, you know, I was performing and I wasn't living. And so when I felt the most alive, you know, I I moved back home to Maryland and there's this teeny little Rachel Carson preserve right across the, right across the main road. And I would start going there every single day for a year, and I started to recognize that the sun shifts dependent on what type of the year it is. I had no idea that, you know, in winter the sun's over here. Yeah and in the summer it's over here, that there's, you know, spring ephemerals, like plants that come up in the spring, and that they then they die back. I mean, I just I didn't know that. And so disconnected from nature. Yeah. And so I started like just learning and taking the time to um sit and watch and observe and kind of become part of. And I I just I didn't know what I was gonna do, honestly, when I when I decided to do a career trajectory to shift, I just knew it needed to be with plants, right? And that, and that that was the call. That was like the soul call, as you know, as you as you say. Um and it was so strong, just like that point when I knew I had to leave. It was it was undeniable. There was no arguing with it, there was no way that I could rationalize around it. I had to change my life. Um, and and so that's where I took the risk. And I left the State Department and I, you know, took an internship on on plants um in the Shendo Valley. So that, yeah, that was kind of I hope that gets at some of what you are asking.
SPEAKER_00Oh my God, yes, that is exactly what I wanted. And this is one of the like, I mean, it's so beautiful that of course you're gonna be sharing your journey. Like, we haven't even gotten into the meat of your journey with considering divorce, but that's why I what you are sharing, this realization that the world we've been sold and the narrative we've been told, which is, you know, especially here in the US, like we have it the best out of everybody. More and more on my podcast, I've been trying to expose these systems and being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up, check in. Is it actually working for your body? Are you actually feeling resourced and connected? And so I am so obsessed with that moment where you actually got to go and see, no, there are other people in the world that actually know how to provide for themselves, know how to take care of their families, are deeply connected to community. And what an incredible thing that your soul call was calling you away from that. When I feel like right now, what we're seeing in the world, at least definitely here, I'm feeling it in the US, is this awakening of whoa, I don't know if the systems are actually built to take care of me or for me to thrive within them as much as to capitalize or take from me and starting to go, let's divest from these systems and let's build more local communities that can support us.
SPEAKER_04So I'm like, you were ahead of your time. Yeah. Well, and we can we can jump to that in in a bit about the realities of being, you know, having lost my job, starting my own business, and how I'm trying to schedule my time so that I don't lose the opportunities to continue to grow my skills of basic carpentry, gardening, farming, mothering, you know, that that 40 hours a week doesn't work for me actually at all. Um, and and money is real and I have real financial needs. And and so, you know, we are both walking this path right now, Vanessa.
SPEAKER_00Which which I I keep talking with my partner, Joe. I'm like, this is the work that needs to be done. Like, we have to find a new way going forward that is not, like you said, healthy humans. I I cannot live in a 40-hour work week either. So, okay, we will we will talk about this more. I'm like totally vibing on this point because um this is something that I'm just very passionate about, all of us undering understanding ourselves within those systems. So I loved you pointing out that for you, this was one of those soul call moments, like undeniable. You follow it while you're following it. You're also going through the process of your recovery process with sobriety, right? And I love that because you shared with me that that kind of gave you the tools and the framework that you would apply later on as well. And then you meet your husband, who is now your ex-husband. But at the time he was he was gonna be your husband. And I think you said at the beginning it felt really good in a lot of ways, yes.
SPEAKER_04Um well, yes. Uh, there was tons of red flags, uh, but there was also, you know, he is a country boy, you know, he um has just an incredibly country Virginia accent that I was just enthralled with. Uh, he's got like a cowboy vibe, um mountain man, cowboy, whatever. And, you know, he comes from Page County, which is where we were, goes back generations. He's like, he was a farming family, he's so deeply rooted and connected. Everything that I was, and I was a suburb kid from transplants that mostly lived abroad. Here was this incredibly rooted, like full-bred American, you know, and I was like, yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so I can just see your brain. Like, that's the whole, like, it seems good at the at the beginning because there's this almost like all the things you thought you were wanting in yourself are now you're like, oh, it's in this person. This person's got the things that I want.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And and so, um, and also with kind of this, I would say immature understanding of some of the core concepts of sobriety. I was almost using the program against myself in in kind of allowances for unacceptable behavior. Now, I will say that, you know, and I don't mean to get too into the like AA world, but you have a sponsor and and that's kind of part of it. Um, kind of like a coach, right? Um, but they and I would say she was not like was uh not co-signing, you know, any any of this. Um, however, it is also very much that you have to figure out your own way. Yeah. You know, never give someone advice that you have to live with type of mentality. So um his anger was a big red flag for me from the beginning, and also some of his previous, um, some of his choices when it came to women. Um, you know, he was married twice before me. He had two kids from two previous marriages, but all of that, you know, I could, I could systems-wise analyze, okay, um, Paige County is a lower socioeconomic, that's more normal to have like more partners. Like I could very much analyze my way into why, and you know, it's more of a conservative area. Um, I was kind of sick of the performative liberalism that I was coming from. I felt like it was part of the problem. So I wanted to be very open and understanding, and I was, and I learned a lot, and I I love that community. And that community is near and dear to my heart and always will be. Uh, but I think that part of it was almost a disavow of my former life in search for it's the pendulum.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes. It's that pendulum the opposite. Yes. Which I see often in our growth in the beginning when we're still figuring out the I mean, oh my God, how complex we are, right, Vanessa? Like at this point, looking back, I'm like, oh, the complexity of all the different decisions I made and the reasons I made them that you're just like you said, not consciously aware of at the time.
SPEAKER_04And what I was consciously aware of that I pushed down was I wanted a husband and I wanted children. And so the combination of wanting to belong someplace, and you know, and and it's not as if it was all horrible or anything from the beginning. There, he's very funny. Um, there's lots of lots of like love, and um, but but even from the outset, uh we did not have the tools to work through conflict at all, um, through and and and all the different elements that are critical to a healthy marriage. So from finances, sex, responsibilities, um, free to like time, how you spend time, all of those things, uh, there was conflict on every single one. And um, and so it was it just became very difficult for me very quickly. And you know, we met in 2019. I left um I separated in June 2024, but left for Ithaca in January 2025. So it's kind of a long time, you know, to stay, to stay in that situation. And um, we got married throughout that whole process. I did have a voice in me that was unsure. Unsure. I yeah, I I was like, I don't, um, it wasn't even that I was unsure. I there was I was split. Like just how I in my life before I was split. There's a part of me that was like, this can't be all right. Like this can't be okay. You can just get divorced if you need to. Like just kind of this part that was not not buying into this, and this other side that, you know, kept coming back, really wanted to um belong, saw him trying, um, you know, and and also is super confusing when the other person is also telling you that what you're upset about isn't real, or that you're the problem. Or, and so that's where the added layer of complexity that made it excruciating for me was not only that it was just difficult, um, it was that I was made to believe that I wasn't allowed to feel the level of harm and um and in some it to some extent some of the abuse that was happening, um that it and in the belittlement of that and kind of just the dissonance of it. I don't know if it was intentional or unintentional, but that was my reality. And so I ended up truly in a in a darker emotional place than I was before I got sober. And and I had my daughter, you know, um, and so it I left so many times. I don't know that we talked about this, but I I I left um I think four or five times. I I left, you know, a couple times before when we were before we got married, when we were initially married, while I was pregnant, came back, tried to make it work, and then ultimately when my daughter was five months old. Um, and I also realized, you know, in in looking back that part of me continued to want to have a baby with him because I I knew that I would be strong enough to leave for for her. I kind of knew that I was gonna have a girl, but um, but but because I didn't think I had the strength to leave for myself. I knew I didn't have the strength to leave for myself. I could always out-justify myself and and um and my daughter was born with some complex needs. Thankfully she's thriving and everything's wonderful, but that added a whole different level of um complicating tensions with him, but then also just a determination um that I had to do what I needed to be able to protect my daughter and make her able to thrive. And only after that, once I got myself where I need to go, did I realize actually I need those things. Yeah. Um, and and then I can actually create the the like the that um situation for my daughter.
SPEAKER_00I want to highlight that because I don't think I've ever noticed it so clearly before, but it mirrors my experience too of what got me into therapy at the beginning was not, was not, you know, oh, I've got these things that I'm going through and I need support. It was I am negatively impacting my children through what's going on with me. I need help for my kids. And I do see that. And I think that's powerful to acknowledge that sometimes, yeah, we don't have the self-love or awareness at that point to do it for ourselves, but often it's wanting something better for our children that can help us make the leap.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And I think that because I moved us up north as well, there was also a tremendous amount of guilt. And it was just, it was it was excruciating. I I I knew that it was the right thing to do, and um, and I felt guilty about it, you know, and I felt as if um, and also the narrative that I was being told was that I was being selfish, that um, you know that that was basically the common train, right?
SPEAKER_00Like that I was like that that almost every woman that's facing a divorce gets told that yeah, you're ruining the family, you're ruining your children's lives. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. But when it's like when you're accused of it's like, ooh. Um and and I think that what was super complicated for me to have to work through was that I knew that I had deep down wanted a baby. Um, and that, you know, it was complicated that I continued to stay and went through having a baby with him, even though I knew that things weren't right. And so it was almost as if, well, he's touching on this point of that you you cause this, you're selfish, and and I didn't have enough wherewithal or tools or you know, understanding to kind of dissect those half-truths to realize I'm allowed to want to have a baby, you know, and and and that's okay. And I'm allowed to make the choice uh for survival for myself and my daughter, and I don't have to feel guilty about it.
SPEAKER_00This ties into the narcissistic elements within the relationship because the you going back three, four, five times and being spun around and coming, you know, going in right side up, coming out, upside down, like not knowing where you are in space, really, really just I'm like, yes, that is the awful stickiness of narcissistic codependent dynamics. Yes?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And it wasn't until, and this is kind of, it's very, it's so eerie how much it almost mirrors some of my early sobriety was until I heard on your podcast, and I don't even know which one it was, but it was sometime in the summer, about narcissism. I had no idea that that's what I was experiencing. I mean, I none. I mean, I'd heard like hashtag narcissism, you know, and I and I shied away from it. If I ever said anything like you're being abusive to me or anything, I was like the response I got was so vehement denial that I thought, okay, that I that must not be true then. You know, if if that's the reaction, that can't be true. And so until I really you went through all the different kind of categorical behaviors. And I think I messaged this on somewhere. It took me like weeks to get through that because I was one terrified that none of his traits would be on there, and then I was super fucked. Um or that they were on there, and what do I do with that? You know, and and so um when I listened through listened in and and kind of was able to um identify in and also right-size it for the realities of of my situation and started talking through with my therapist about what I was experiencing then as in separation and co-parenting dynamics, it it was as if, you know, this kind of shift in alignment, like something snapped right into place, and I was like, oh, um, got it. And so the immediate kind of aftermath for me, fortunately, was understanding boundaries and that I had to pretty immediately hardcore believe in my own boundaries, or else I was toast.
SPEAKER_01That was not gonna make sense. Are we just gonna keep spinning around this circle doing the same thing? Yeah. So, and and that was like August.
SPEAKER_00That's that's August of last year. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is this is one of another theme that I love so much in your process is this importance of the knowledge to name things. Once you know what is happening, like the moment where you're like, oh, it's alcoholism. Oh, once you know that's what we're dealing with, okay, now we can start working with it. Same thing with the narcissism. Oh, now I instead of just being in this like echo chamber of I don't understand what's happening, and somehow I keep doing the same thing over and over and I keep trying to leave, but somehow I keep coming back, but I don't know why. That's the moment I've seen it too. I'm like, oh, this is this was me with CPTSD. The moment I finally got that framework, it was like big shift in my life. Recently, with understanding, oh, I have ADHD, big shift. So it's so key to find these moments. And it, I love how often you'll feel it by that resonance, you know. Once it clicks, it's like you step over that line of before I didn't know, now I know. And once you know, I've seen it for myself. It's like you kind of can't unknow without a lot of work to try and make yourself not see again.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And and I, I mean, putting this in kind of the frame of where I was in my life at that point, you know, we had moved up to moved up to Ithaca in January. I lost my job when the organization fell apart with loss of federal funding in May. Um, hadn't was housing insecure, did not know until I bought this house where I was going to be able to live, what I was going to afford, because without a W-2, you can't get loans and or landlords and all that kind of stuff, which was terrifying. Um, and based on kind of the arrangement that we had, I was able to live wherever I wanted with her so long as she didn't provide child support. And so I was financially on my own and terrified and realizing, oh my God, like this is what was going on. This is what is still happening. Um, so I think almost for a matter of matter of survival, I had to be a real fast learner to be able to implement, you know, some of the tools. And, you know, it still was difficult. It doesn't just because it snaps into place and you don't repeat the same patterns, doesn't mean that there's not a whole lot of pain, a lot of activation. I was, I felt as if I was just getting trauma activated all fall as I was learning how to discern my truth from his. It happened quicker, happened quicker. Even now, I don't even get trauma activated that much. Not ever, but that much. Um, and um, and so I guess that's all to say is that yes, putting kind of your your framework on c like clears up your vision. It doesn't fast track healing.
SPEAKER_00You know, you still it's still going to the gym, lifting the weights to now build the muscles while at the same time still goes back to your comment about like sobriety. You're you still have to live your life while you're going through the process of sobriety and unlearning that and relearning the new patterns. It's the process is such a like deeply, deeply vulnerably human experience of receiving awareness and being like, okay, now, and it's just like a day-by-day trek out into that new life. And one of the things I loved when we talked on, you know, before this episode was you being very real about like, yeah, and I'm still absolutely in the process. There are still days where I like catch myself thinking, oh, this is gonna be different. And then I'm like, oh, wait, never mind. I need to keep those boundaries back here. Um, I still, you know, I don't think I'll ever be out of that process of, you know, reevaluating another round on the spiral staircase of growth in a different way, seeing myself from a different level, but steadily bit by bit coming into more peace. Just, you know, you just notice a little bit more of that peace, a little bit more of that safety in my body, a little bit more of that I can trust myself building and building and building as you go.
SPEAKER_04And I and I think that one of the biggest indicators for me that the marriage and the relationship was not all right was, you know, I was like, I'm sober. I should feel better inside. You know, I should feel more peace. I journal, you know, I do yoga. Um I'm like very connected to nature. What the fuck? You know, and and so it's only now, you know, my I am very fortunate. I have incredibly supportive um family and parents and kind of went in on this house that kept us in Ithaca is a fixer upper. So it's like it's it's from the 1850s and it has 15 acres of land that I just feel very incredibly fortunate to be able to have. Um, on the especially in the Northeast, you know, land is very expensive. Um, but only now that I went through kind of the turmoil, like we the fall, I had to move in, found out I actually wasn't divorced, and I had to get actually divorced, and it was just like all this nonsense. And now I'm and I'm building out my business, not exactly where I want it to be, but I am the weather is cleared, I'm spending time outside, you know, parts of our house are beautiful. Um and, you know, it what was coming up for me when you were talking earlier was just like the con, you know, I work in agriculture, regenerative agriculture, and systems change. And it's so incredibly complex to move from conventional agriculture to regenerative as a as a country, as not to mention a community. And but regeneration, like what does it take for regeneration? And it's it's it's interdependent, it's highly complex, it's evolving. You know, there's going to be patches that die back, there's going to be, you know, like overgrowth. You know, it's just this, you know, and it requires this kind of constant maintenance and relationship. Um and relationship.
SPEAKER_00That word right there, yes.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And like right now, um, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm out there every day um breaking tools and then like spending an hour trying to fix them.
SPEAKER_00So I have to interrupt you, and uh I I'm totally gonna take you down a rabbit hole just because I'm curious. Have you ever seen the documentary The Little, it's like the littlest, biggest farm? Oh my God. Okay, so uh you will have you'll watch it. We'll I'm gonna have to like bring you back to the podcast and we will totally like dive deeper into this beautiful imagery of like taking land that we have, you know, used in a more capitalistic, like just you know, uh raping, pillaging kind of way of the land where we're not actually working in concert with it. Um, it was this couple that ended up taking a farm in California that had been ruined like that. And over like five to seven years, it took that long to really reconnect the ecosystem of the farm. And it's the most gorgeous documentary ever. You will die. I'm gonna link it in the show notes because I'm realizing it's this like gorgeous example of what it's like to reclaim our lives from being raised. You know, we're like those farms for many of us, raised disconnected from the wild. Our parents are disconnected, generations back are disconnected. Nobody's actually teaching us how to be connected into our bodies, what real relationship looks like, what community looks like, what look, you know, what trusting our intuition, listening to our body signals looks like. And then we are the ones getting to, like this couple did, come in and go, something else can be built here. And it can be more beautiful and totally different and done in a totally different way than we've been taught to do it. And not only will we change it, but the beautiful thing is at the end of that documentary, like they are experiencing like way more production, way more, like in much more healthier, supportive ways of the planet than the previous ways had done. And I feel like that's like what you and I are talking about with the journey we've been on in our own lives, of it is such an interconnected dynamic of all these different like pieces of your farm. You know, okay, we're overhauling all of this dependence on alcohol. For me, it's been I'm steady overhauling on like dependence on hustle and productivity and having to be responsible for everything and hold it all together. And I know part of your journey recently has been like reconnecting to rest, mine as well. So I just had to say, like, this image is one of the things I love most about you and the writing that you do and your work with, you know, you said I have these 15 acres, and I was like, oh, you the word that comes to me is like you are a steward. The way you interact with that land is as a steward of this land in the same way I think you and I have both shifted from this is my life into like I'm a steward of my body, my life, the people within it.
SPEAKER_04I yes, I think that when you were sharing about that, a couple of different things were coming up. One is that so I work with a lot of conventional farmers, right? And these are not bad guys, these are not people that are like mean to their families or like bad guys, right? Um there are systems, policies, industry that are profiting and benefiting from them continuing to farm their land the way that they're farming it. And the American public is is both funding it and benefiting from the way that things are now. So it's it's you know, it's not just like, oh, if you could just do it differently, then everyone would be better. But what I think, like tying back to the regeneration, um the there are farmers and there are people that like there's a huge swath of us that right now are questioning, you know, the sustainability, the resilience of the systems as they are, and what we need to do, what the inner journey is, um, as well as kind of the outer concentric circles that we can shape as we do that inner work. And so, yeah, like I was a failed farmer in in in down south. I was a flower farmer and I couldn't hack it. And part of it was because I just wasn't there emotionally, spiritually. And I feel as if, in so many ways, having this land, and I'm gonna do a native medicinal food forest and agroforestry operation where it's all natives, um, and it's providing food and medicine for myself, for my daughter, for my community, um, uh, and trying to do so in a way that I believe um kind of at least build some momentum um in the face of the kind of herbal industry, like the the tough sides of the herbal industry, let's just say. So um, but you know, I gotta pay for a tractor and I gotta, you know, I have like all these like real life considerations. And so um there's this gl I'm I'm gonna go into Subzac now here. Okay. So there's this like glamorized version of regeneration that like you just like sit outside and plant trees and it's like so beautiful. Like, meanwhile, I'm like stepping in my dog shit, like trying to like get like pruning that like my chainsaw is breaking. Like it's not glamorous work. It's really hard, it's really expensive. Um, and you know, there's there's not a tremendous amount of supports in the in the system to help you on this path. Um, and I am in a place where I think that I'm able to overcome most of those barriers because of the internal work that I have been doing and continue to be doing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Literally, yeah, literally, Vanessa, that's like what I am the most passionate about. You know, passionate about a lot of things, but that's one of the biggest is that as we do our internal work and follow our soul calls, absolutely. I think one of the things that's most overwhelming for people in the world right now is it just feels so big. It's like, how can these systems ever change? This is there's so much money caught up in these systems, and there's so much this and that, and we just want to throw up our hands and say it's always gonna be this way. But it starts with those individual journeys that then start slowly rippling out. And I have to think of myself sometimes in the framework of like, I may not see this change in my lifetime. It may not even change in the generations to come, but at least I am a part of the ripple that is being started outwards. And keeping, I I I love so much that your story and what you're sharing here is, and we've been very, you've been very real about it of like, it's tough. It's one of the things I like most about sharing on my journey on the podcast. I'm like, this isn't for everybody, not everybody wants to do this. You know, getting real with yourself, being honest, that that vision of regenerative farming just applies so beautifully to what it's like to choose a soul-led life to move that way. And it when you said the whole, it's not glamorous, but I felt like the butt was like the butt, it's what I want. Like there is a depth here that yes, even in the heart, you want it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And part of me feels both sad and grateful for the amount of I don't know that everyone has to go through the amount of suffering that I did for how many years that I did.
SPEAKER_02I I don't think they want to. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's the beauty of you and I doing this work. I have seen, I have I know for myself that that is true because I am watching women in my community because of the work I have done and the frameworks I'm now sharing, going through their journey with not the same amount of the cognitive dissonance, the absolute like fear and confusion. Because you and I, in a lot of ways, had to do it for, you know, you found me kind of towards the end of those big things. So it was a lot of just like, I'm pulling myself up, I'm trying to figure this out, I'm just like taking the next step. A lot of it, the majority of my journey was done with like maybe one or two friends that like had my back, but it was not done in a context of like, this is a movement in the world right now. People are doing this, there are other women experiencing this, I am not alone in this, like the bigger framework. So I totally believe, like you said, it doesn't have to be this way for the people that come after those of us helping change the framework in this way.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And and I think that, you know, I'm I do believe that every that there's always opportunities or kind of off-ramps to then be granted with greater alignment, right? So I don't I don't know why it took me so long to figure out what it did. Um I am really grateful that generationally my daughter won't ever know a mom who doesn't love herself. Wow. I mean, my mom loves I mean my mom loved herself, but I just had so much trauma, it kind of overwhelmed that like my my life experience. But hopefully, you know, my daughter and whoever, you know, is in her circle will know what healthy boundaries are and how to self-reflect. And you know, all these all these tools, and I and I love how you kind of really win in on self-love um at the in over the holiday season. Because I would say that that singularly healed me more than any other thing. I thought, you know, I didn't know if I could do boundaries. I really didn't understand, I just didn't know if I could do boundaries. But if you really fake it till you make it, that you love yourself and like put forward the situation from a version of yourself that so deeply loves you, then it bec it's so clarified. You just would never allow certain behaviors or whatever to happen. Um, and so I just I I hope that other women can feel kind of the richness and unfolding that happens when you really, really, really know what it means to love yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it's a beautiful, like, symbiotic process. I feel like you there's self-love being built all along. There was self-love in the moment of you going, whoa, alcoholism. Oh, okay. Um, I'm gonna move towards that instead of away from that. And I'm gonna try to work through that. There was self-love in the exploration of maybe I want to move away from these people and maybe meet these other people. And I I honestly believe like I look back on my path and I see all of it as part of the journey that ultimately was leading me towards more and more self-love. So I even look at like marrying my ex-husband and I'm like, yeah, that needed to happen. You know, you do what you can with the knowledge that you have and the moment that you have it. And as you keep going forward and gaining new knowledge, you make new choices with that as you go forward. Now, I'm I know we're, you know, I could keep you on this episode for more for hours and hours all day long. But there are a few things that I want to touch back on that I know my listeners usually love like hearing from my guest stories. And one of them is going back into that moment where you were trying to figure out am I staying, am I going? Was there a touch point where you were like, yep, it's time to go?
SPEAKER_04When I was pregnant with my daughter, the the image that came up in my head was um my ex-husband holding the baby and screaming at me. Um and that propelled me to leave the you know, the first um or the top the first when I was pregnant. I um and we came back and went to, I don't know if you've ever heard of this thing called Retro Bye, but it's kind of a Catholic-based, we're not Catholic, but um, it's like divorce weekend, um, where couples that are Catholics, then they I'm not gonna say all Catholics, this Catholic program doesn't want people to get forced, so they like offer hands-on support for how to address your issues and really helpful points that came in there. We went through that. My daughter came, you know, like a month or two later, and um, and I thought that we were gonna we really might be at that precipice to go in a different direction in in our marriage that was healthy for both of us. Well, it didn't. Um, and so I was feeling more alone um and scared. And I was experiencing all this dissociation, didn't know that that's what it was, um, where I would I worked full-time and was raising my you know infant by myself, basically, and had my time with her during the day. And then my ex-husband would come home and it was like I was living two different lives. Um, one that was lovely, um, though, you know, challenging as an as a new mom, and the other that was filled with like conflict and strife and and everything else. Um, but then there came to that point where I was already unhappy and I was kind of questioning, okay, you know, can I actually do this? Should I, should I leave? Um, I've already left. What if I come back? I don't know if I can do, you know, just all those, all those kind of questions that come up. Um, and then I don't even know what the argument was about, but um, you know, I found myself in a situation where he's carrying the baby and screaming at me, and I'm all I can think about is I gotta get my daughter a away from him. It's not that she was in physical harm, but I was I was very afraid. Um and, you know, I did get my daughter, and I don't remember what happened afterwards, but it it was that, you know, that red line um where it picked me into gear to be able to start making the plans to figure out, you know, I gotta get out of here. Um and I I moved down to Florida with my parents for a couple of months till I could kind of figure out my next um my next move. Um and it was very, very difficult. But as soon as I was in Florida, I knew, you know, I'm not going back. Like that's it. This is done. You know, there's there's no, there's absolutely no room for me to be able to re-enter this relationship and marriage. Now I did have to move back into the house for a couple of months until I could figure out what we were gonna do, where we're gonna go. And it was horrendous. I, you know, it yeah, it was so bad. And I did you shared this in one of the one of the podcasts about when they think that you're gonna leave, you know, it can just get way worse. Or like after you've left, it can just like it's just, it's really, really, really, really um horrible. Um and so, and then I I moved us up to Ithaca. And that was another big, you know, that move was almost bigger in a way than the initial separation move because I knew I couldn't handle the emotional turmoil of like moving us back. Like I moved us, uh I put Pennsylvania between us.
SPEAKER_01I needed to like get out of there. I need a state, an entire state.
SPEAKER_04Um and so um that was when I really knew that I was, even though there was still emotional baggage and and um and you know feeling guilt or still that part of me that was maybe thinking like, oh, if there's if he would just do this, that or the other, even though like 80% of me had already decided, nope, like you're on it. Like we're not, we're not going back. Um, and I don't I think in that case when I moved up to Ithaca, it was just uh, you know, a compilation. It was just so many things that I I was I was just living in a traumatized state um by being in that environment that I had like just to survive, I had no option, no other option from my perspective than to get us out of there. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And when that moment came, you just went. Yeah. Yeah. A couple other things that I know I want you to touch on that I've loved so much in, you know, reading about your journey and also talking to you. One of them was that you have mentioned this nature-based spiritualism. And this is something that I I am talking about more in the community on and on the podcast of like you need to have, I talk about it often as like that soul connection or the intuition or just some connection to the unseen, something bigger than you that you can kind of have that like leaning on and support with. I would love for you to speak to that because I know that's been a big part of your, you know, we we talk so much, you've been talking about like how hard and difficult this has been. I believe that's been a huge place of resourcing and support for you, yes?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. You know, in in sobriety, you know, there's the whole 12 steps and blah, blah, blah. But integral into that is having any sort of concept of a higher power. It doesn't have to be God, it's just like any sort of concept of a higher power. So I grew up um in the Christian church. I kind of left the church, if you will, not in the same way, I think, from what I gather of your experience, but um, you know, I I was not active in my Christianity um from college onwards, uh, but had kind of a strong spiritual foundation, I would say, belief in a God. And so uh for a long time I found my solace, particularly in that marriage, um, out in nature. I would take long walks. Uh, there was a creek um where I learned the birds. Um, they I had special trees that were what I didn't realize at the time, but found out later were called mother trees. These were old, old trees. And I would seek them out because, well, they're the tallest of forests. And I was like, that's cool. Um, and then I would go there and they're just they're huge. And they have all these beautiful crevices covered with moss. And I I've hugged them and cried with them and um and they they provided a huge amount of healing. So did learning how to grow plants and and and so forth and so on. Well, I was I'm lucky enough that there's, you know, I have four women that I'm very close with from um Shendo Valley, and one of them is on this medicine path. She's studied um under an elder who's studied under Jenny Ray, um, who's of the Sioux tribe, and they it's called the Stonewalker Medicine. And Jenny Ray, no one in her um like direct lineage was going to carry the medicine path forward. She sought um permission from elders to share with non-natives. Um, and so my friend Katie had been studying that for years, and I took a couple of kind of courses from her that really put forward this kind of land-based spiritual framework, um, how to set up altar, um, how to kind of pray through the directions um and what the directions can mean, and and so forth and so on. Now, I won't go into major detail there, uh, but the having that tool and like set of tools, that framework in the past year and a half, I would say, and also having worked directly with Katie was enormous in my ability to continue to leave, really. I mean, I remember um setting up um altar and setting up ceremony and just with overwhelming clarity, just this sense of like get out. You like it was it was there was no like there was no if, outs, buts about it. Like it was like get out of there. And um, and it be I think maybe just because of my experiences where I come from, um, there was no way that I could argue with it. And it felt much deeper than me. It wasn't just intuition, it was kind of just this vortex of spiritual energy that um that I that I've I had to follow. And since I've you know been here and continued to grow and with that practice, there's this kind of concept of different seasons uh um associated with the directions. And what I was talking about earlier, you know, I felt like I was in this kind of perpetual spring, where is this like focus on birth and it's um new and like growing, like planting seeds and just like this new beginning and and everything that comes with like that vulnerability and and uh and kind of new insights. And I was in this like very long uh spring season. And then when you move down towards the the the south and the summer, it's kind of passion and fire and and um and community. And uh, and right now where I am with the land is I'm like doing a lot of clearing out. I have to, I really have to pull back so much overgrowth, so many dead limbs. Um it like plants that are not native, that are you know, wreaking habit with invasive. Um, and even though some of them are brilliant medicines, so I harvest a lot of them too, but um, you know, really trying to pull back and feeling powerful with that. You know, I used to be kind of timid. I I didn't, I was like, oh, I don't want to hurt things the way that they are. Oh, I don't know how to use this tool. Oh, and it's like, nope, like figure it out. And so um, you know, I'm out there and and and even yesterday I was this probably too much of a tangent for your audience, but there's these these cedars that are right on the west side of the of the house, and they're blocking the damn view. I can't see out the window. They're so overgrown. And um, and so I, you know, was conflicting. I was like, well, I can't cut down cedar's a beautiful like native. It's um, you know, it has these like spiritual qualities and so forth, but I hated that I couldn't see out the window. So I finally was like, well, let me be all or nothing and cut them all down. So I go out there with my chainsaw and like and then there's all these birds that are sitting in there. And I was like, oh no, what can I do? Um, and so I decided what a like a normal approach would be is I just cut back some of the dead trees and got it out of the window. And now I have this beautiful cedar in these trees, and I made medicine from the the leaves, and I'm gonna give them to Katie as an offering. And so just experiences like that, I just they're wonderful. And and I am so grateful to have the like the humility and observation to experience them and let them heal me, you know. Um so that's that's kind of my spiritual path bit.
SPEAKER_00This ties beautifully into one of the final pieces I wanted from you too, which was lessons from the house. That that's one of the things I love most is how this isn't just become like, I think, you know, in your specific journey, a lot of us buy a house and we move into it, but it's not like a journey. But no, this home really feels like it is a process for you of both restoring the home and the home healing you through that journey. So I'd love to just hear some of those like key moments for you that have stood out in this process with your home. I know you're still in like it's it's you know, we're at the b it's so exciting because we're at the beginning of the journey with you.
SPEAKER_04Um well, and homes are super fascinating. The the Virginia house that I was in, I felt deeply dark and filled, was filled with my trauma. I I couldn't, I couldn't feel safe and aligned in that house. And um, and it was old and um and we did restore and some of the renovations are are beautiful, but um the comparison between renovating that house with my ex-husband um and all the dynamics involved with that to just the agency of being able to restore this house on my own. And of course, it's not my own because I can't do it on my own. There's so many people that are helping me.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I love that part by the way. I love that you were able to get in through your parents helping you. I that's one of the things I love on the Substack is these people that you're learning to interact with. Like, ah. So I just had to say, like, I do love that because we are so trained to think we need to do it all on our own. And I am learning this year too, of like, whoa. No, let the community come in.
SPEAKER_04And even asking for help. I mean, I I had to ask my parents for a huge financial commitment. And, you know, we did it very professionally and they thought about it and we decided, you know, and and I will um like be able to pay them back in full with the sale of the Virginia house and all of those things. So it feels like I'm still maintaining my financial independence, but I needed their help and they were able to help me. Um, and not everyone has that luxury. The and they came out here when I moved in and were painting walls and all the things. Um, but so this house um is a beautiful old white house. And um, you could tell it was loved. I mean, there's four like four layers of wallpaper, ornate, beautiful wallpaper, very much falling apart, but um and kind of gross, but very, you could tell at once nice green, shaggy carpet. And um, and so coming in, um, I felt so trapped in that I wasn't able to do really anything in my last marriage, my last house, that pulling up all of the the carpets, you know, I like that was like a huge deal for me because one, physically I can handle that and it takes no skill. Um, and so, you know, you can just you can just do it. Um, and it takes a bit of grit is actually what it takes. Um, and so um, you know, that that that was the first layer of entrance into the house was huge for me and it gave me the confidence, okay, I can do this. Now, there's been other things that I could not do, and I had to hire contractors. Um, sometimes that the the uh very loud advice of my stepfather being like, I can't even do this by yourself.
SPEAKER_01That balance, right? It's knowing, am I gonna cut the trees down entirely or am I gonna leave them entirely?
SPEAKER_00No, we're gonna find something in the middle.
SPEAKER_04Exactly, exactly. So I'm still, you know, I'm still calibrating there. But um so anyway, I but being I created beautiful rooms for my daughter and I and like in play areas, and um, and there's still like the kitchen is just a disaster and it's really ugly. But it doesn't matter when my like toddler and I, you know, are doing huge baking days on the weekends and everything at everywhere because I'm less concerned about it because it's kind of crappy. Um and it's that's okay. Um, and I and financially, this is this is a big part of um where I'm at right now is where do I want, how do my values align with my wealth? How do I grow wealth um that is resilient, um, that you know is multifaceted. Um, so I have my consulting, I'm trying to build on the land. Um, and you know, I want retirement and all those things. And so I I can't renovate the house as fast as I want to. Um, and there's those voices that want to come up and say, um, you know, all types of things if I let them, that are really critical and negative about made-up conversations of other people judging me, basically, is the is the is the um short of it. And I just have to put it aside and say, okay, um, I can go into debt, sure, and rack up a bunch of money on my credit card, which I have done and I'm trying to rein in, or uh I can stick to a budget, be disciplined and and sit with the house a little bit, like sit with the discomfort of where the house is and allow my finances to mature and like tend to it as I as I can. Um, and so this is, yeah, it's been the house is teaching me so many different lessons. Um, and some of them are, you know, more in my face than than others. But overall, you know, I just this is a small task, but I put up a swing over one of the trees for my daughter. Um, now this is very much in my man, like mandatory. Like I would definitely have like a partner do that, right? I did it wrong four times, like picked the wrong limb, couldn't get it over. It was crooked. Um, but I finally got it. Um, and the empowerment of then pushing my daughter in the swing this morning and knowing that I did that myself is just, I don't know. There's just there's nothing else that's like it that I've ever experienced. Um and so I feel so grateful when I'm pushing her in the swing and looking back at our beautiful house that it's like it's a container for growth for us and it's meeting my needs. And, you know, and the same with the land. And the land hasn't even gotten started with me yet. Like it's like jazz, and that's the real jungle. It's like of what I'll what I'll learn from the what it wants to show me. But um, overall, I go to sleep content at night, and I like my home with its flaws and all, and I like me, flaws and all.
SPEAKER_00So you like your life, yeah, flaws and all. Oh yes, Vanessa. This, yes, a million times, yes. Um thank you so much for this incredible episode. I just feel very, very lucky to have got to um bring you in and share you with other women that I know are going to. I think one of the things I love most about you is you are further down the road than a lot of the people that I interview. As far as like um, you've been doing this work for a long time, even before the divorce, you know, with the sobriety, with the coming back home to yourself. And so your voice is really strong in this like choosing the life that you have now. And I loved your point of like, I am content. Ugh, that word. I want more contentment in my life. Yeah. Yeah. I would love for you before we close out, I love always having you get to say just one thing that you would want to say to other women that maybe in the you know early stages or the middle stages, right, of this process back where you found yourself. What would you want them to know?
SPEAKER_04You are not alone. That is it is such a lonely fate to be trapped in a marriage and not know if or how to get out. And I've been through it, Britta's been through it, all these other women have been through it, and you don't have to suffer by yourself, you can reach out to people, you can survive and move towards a life that is better than you imagined, that is better than you are living now. Um, and you don't have to be afraid. Beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and the word that came through as you were saying that was like, yeah, and a life where you are thriving because you are capable. That's that's the biggest piece of this journey. It's not the like magic life that you get that now is like ease and comfort and everything makes sense and nothing's complicated, but it is the feeling of capability that I can show up in my life. I can like with your swing, I can throw it four different times and I'm gonna, I'm not gonna abandon myself. I'm gonna stick with myself and we're gonna figure it out.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I I love that capability and capable. I am capable. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna take that.
SPEAKER_00And I'm gonna take your contentment.
SPEAKER_01I go to bed at night content. That's all right.
SPEAKER_00That's all right. Thank you again, Vanessa. Thank you all for listening. What a treat. I am always so, so grateful to host amazing, amazing women like this and to get to also share them with all of you. I will look forward to popping back on next week with you, my loves. Until then, sending you hugs.