Welcome to the Stay or Go podcast, where we're changing the dialogue around divorce so that no woman ever stays in her marriage out of fear. Get ready to dispel myths, learn life-changing tools, and build a solid foundation in yourself from which to make your decision. And now your host, me, Britta Joe. Uh-huh, everyone. Yay, you guys. I have such an amazing treat for you all this week on the podcast. Mentioned a couple weeks ago that I was gonna have my gorgeous and amazing friend, Ranelle Chapman, come on. And she is here with us today, virtually in the studio. Hi, Renelle. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, so, so excited. Ranelle is actually gonna be um diving in deep with us today about unleashing desire. She is a transformational coach and founder of her work that you call Tantra Maha. Can you tell me where that name came from? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, so I've been studying Tantra for many years now. It's something that I found in my late 20s. And um I've received so much from from the teachings from it, you know, not just um in my body, but also um spiritually and mentally, you know, it's it's taught me a lot. And Maha means great, and so that Maha means kind of great, great tantra, or um yeah, like because it means I guess it means so much to me. So that's where the name Tantra Maha comes from. It's from it being yeah, it's kind of really powerful um thing that I've experienced in my life.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I love that. I know I did not plan to ask you that, but I just like spontaneously was like, I have to know.
SPEAKER_02Some people thought, well, what does that mean? You know, and and it's nice to be able to say where it came from. So yeah, I'm glad you asked.
SPEAKER_00Of course. So in your work, you are super passionate about helping women be able to reconnect with their desires, reclaim their power, and break free from the societal conditioning that tells them to want less, to be small. Um, I love too that you, from your own experiences, you know, have a very trauma-informed approach to this, helping women heal from past wounds. I mean, so many women have, right? Trauma around our sensuality, um, trauma around not feeling safe embodying our truth and being completely disconnected from stepping into a life of that deeper pleasure and self-trust. So um, I just have to say, like, I love Ranelle and I met last year in the Existential Kink Penetrate program. And we ended up trading coaching back and forth. And that's really where I fell in love with you and your presence. You held space for me on some really big things that I was going through last year. So I am so excited for you to get to come on the podcast and share with my listeners what I know you're so passionate about it, right? Like what it looks like to actually integrate the pieces of your mind and your body and your spirit together so that you can embrace your full self. Yeah. Right. It's like a multi-process for you. I love that we were kind of talking about this earlier. Tantra isn't just what many people think of being, you know, sexual, it is a full body, mind, spirit thing.
SPEAKER_02And we even together, you know, and I think that's um kind of where I found it from. It's because, you know, I felt so disconnected from my body. I felt like I was always um uh, you know, just outside of my body when I was connecting, you know, not just intimately when having sex, but with with all my relationships, you know, and and just with the world itself, you know, I felt very overstimulated by everything. Um, you know, loud noises, um, big crowds of people, and you know, even just being in situations where there was a lot of people around me and or maybe there was a lot of sensation. And so I felt very disconnected from from myself, from my relationships, from the world itself. And I think one of the most beautiful things that Tantra has taught me is to be able to connect in with others, you know, to connect in with the world, with everything around me and with relationships and and you know, also like learning what I need myself in order to be able to do that. So, you know, knowing when I need to step back and come out and take a moment to recharge, you know, is has been very powerful for me. You know, I've always you know thought of myself as being kind of highly sensitive or oversensitive, or certainly that's how I felt as I was growing up. And and this kind of had me feel like there was something wrong with me, you know. I used to think, you know, why why can't I experience pleasure in my body? Why does everything have me feeling like I'm kind of short circuiting or just complete out of my body and disconnected? And and so just really learning to honor what was going on in my body and taking some time to take a breath or give myself space or um yeah, just learn really what I needed in order to to thrive. And and you know, it took a long time for me to to understand that, you know, to see this as you know, not uh a weakness in me, but also like a superpower, you know, something that you can really work create more connection and more pleasure and you know, more intimacy, not just with myself, but with the world around me. And so I think that's something beautiful about tantra.
SPEAKER_00And like I just have to say, I'm having such a gorgeous, and I'm sure other women on the call are too in this moment of hearing you. It's one of the things I love about you, Ronelle. The way you speak allows me to hear things and understand things in ways I hadn't previously, but you saying this experience, putting in words, this experience of feeling extra sensitive to the world and overstimulated by it. I don't think I really woke up to that. It's only been like the last few years that I think I could say, actually, yeah, more of my lived experience has been being overstimulated for most of it. So I'm really curious, when you were younger, how did you know? Like you mentioned thinking of yourself as kind of highly sensitive. How did you know that you were that way?
SPEAKER_02People would say so, you know, often say you were sensitive. But that was the one. But um, I guess just how I felt in the world, you know. Um, like I was saying about, you know, loud sound, you know, they would make me kind of shudder. And, you know, if there was a lot of people running around, or um, you know, like definitely as a child, you know, if I was around lots of children, if there was like lots of screaming, I would often take myself away and just would maybe go sit in a corner and and you know, so they there was this label of being shy, and I kind of grew up thinking, oh, well, I I must just be shy, you know. I I must just be different, or yeah, something wrong with me, or you know, maybe I'm just not like everyone else.
SPEAKER_00So which is so, which I bet I'm I have this like segue a little bit like I want to tie in. You get labeled as shy because you're so sensitive. I would imagine that does kind of limit or inhibit some of your sexual exploration or desire, perhaps, because you don't view yourself maybe as this more open, desirous individual. Did you experience that at all?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. You know, I found it very difficult to express myself sexually when I was younger, you know. I think everything used to just move way too quickly for me. Um and my body would just shut down. And so for a lot of years, I just thought maybe I just don't enjoy sex. Maybe, you know, that's just not for me. And, you know, it took me a long time to really figure out that actually, you know, I I didn't know myself, you know, I didn't know what I wanted, I didn't know what I desired, I didn't know what my body wanted more than anything, you know. And and you know, we have a lot of ideas in our mind about what we want, but really it's when we really start to listen to our body and drop in, is when we can really understand what it is that makes us tick, you know, and and learning what it is that really brings our body alive and and what it takes to allow our body to just completely surrender into pleasure and and feel in somebody else's touch and and not just you know somebody else's touch, but our own touch as well. So like, you know, that's yes, you know, understanding that you know, I I just used to like you know, go to my body if I was self-pleasuring, for instance, and it was like, what can she give me? You know, can she give me an orgasm? Can she give me this? What kind of pleasure can my body give me? And you know, I think what was a big change for me and also in partnership is you know, like really taking that time to slow down, to give myself or my body, you know, time to just feel safe, you know, asking what do you want? You know, instead of what can you give me is like speaking to your body and saying or listen and feeling like what do you want?
SPEAKER_00Where where when do you want to be touched?
SPEAKER_02And can I touch you? Like even asking permission.
SPEAKER_00Permission, ooh, that is so sexy asking because yeah, I mean, for a lot of us, our formative experiences with being touched for those of us that have had sexual trauma, they were not consensual. And if that happened very, very young, before you even had maybe a connection with yourself, a consensual connection with yourself and how you want to be touched, you move through the world not even knowing that that is a thing, that having permission not only from others, but permission from yourself. I love this idea, Renal. You're like blowing my mind now that I'm really dropping in with you on the idea of having a relationship with your body, thinking of your body as something that you go to, not to get something or this tool that you use, but something that perhaps has its own wants, desires that maybe you up in your head as the personality you think of yourself as maybe disconnected from.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that was the biggest game changer for me, you know, is really dropping in and feeling what that was, you know, what what is it that she wants, you know, what does what does she need? And and you know, and how can I how can I give that to her? How can I feed her with that? And and you know, the more the more I did and the more I learned and the more I understand. Um I guess the more we kind of receive together, you know, we you know it's from being, you know, these two separate parts, you know, to like completely joining together. And and you know, I guess that's another thing about um Tantra is it is that kind of bridge between the human and the spirit, you know, it's it's bringing those parts. And you know, it's the same with the different energies in us, you know, the masculine and the feminine, for instance, or the you know, the the different polarities that are in us, like pleasure and pain and love and fear and all these different things, you know, like how can we bring those together?
SPEAKER_00And um so do you feel like Tantra? I loved you talking about it as a bridge, and I've never thought of it before as a bridge between polarities such as like pleasure and pain, but it sounds like the way you think of Tantra is it's a reconnecting with your body or you know, practices that allow you to be with both, to be able to move through both of those experiences in life.
SPEAKER_02And you know, I guess like a more like a practical example of it, for instance, you know, if we have maybe tension or pain in any part of our body, and allowing ourselves to be with that, well, you know, regardless of what whether we label it as a good or bad sensation that we're having, but just allowing ourselves to be with that sensation that's going on. And, you know, especially, you know, if we've had sort of sexual sexual trauma in the past, or you know, even if we've just had, you know, we've overridden our boundaries, you know, which I know I've done plenty of times. Oh my god, yes.
SPEAKER_00Right. It's not even like someone necessarily doing something that I didn't want to happen, but it's like I let something happen that I thought I wanted that looking back on after it's over, I'm like, oh, actually that was too fast. Or I don't even know if it was too fast or not. I just feel dysregulated and like something happened that for some reason I thought I was gonna like and now I don't like and I didn't talk about it.
SPEAKER_02And we can hold this tension in our body, right? And you know, through through being present and through being intimate, intimate with our with our body and going into those places and just really feeling what's there and again not labeling it as something good or bad. We're just kind of giving it our attention. And you know, so in that sense, I feel like we take away the I guess the label of of of what it is, you know, and we're just present with what's there and uh then it allows for that energy to move through us and to uh I kind of open up into something more expansive, more spacious, and and so I guess that's a kind of practical way of maybe how these things um come together in that way.
SPEAKER_00I'm I'm super like dying curious. You've been talking about all this beautiful work, and I would love to hear where that starting point was. Like, what was the moment where you start either? I don't know if it's that you found Tantra or was it a specific, you know, experience that started your journey on this path of reconnecting in with your body in such a beautifully, you know, intimate way.
SPEAKER_02Um, I mean, there's there's been kind of not just one moment, but many. Um, you know, I don't feel like, you know, we get to a point and then, you know, it just opens up. You know, for me it's been very sort of transient where, you know, the first I first started to look at tantra when I was in my sort of mid to late twenties. And um, you know, I was really disconnected from my sexuality, you know, and also had a lot of shame. You know, I had all these like very kinky desires as well, you know, these things that felt very taboo. And, you know, I thought, gosh, what's wrong with me? You know, why why when I'm you know, it was all very much in my head. So, you know, I would post these fantasies that I felt very ashamed of, and that was a kind of only pathway to pleasure, you know. I never really felt pleasure in it was always kind of in my mind, you know, and and then I met a partner when I was about 28, 29, and we had this beautiful relationship, you know. At first, it was very we we were it was very long distance and we kind of met on the dance floor, and and then he didn't he didn't learn we had this like really beautiful moment meeting, and then for weeks we couldn't see each other, so we really got to know each other of a message, you know, we were messaging all day long back and forth, and it got very sensual and a lot of anticipation. Um, you know, we would even write to each other in French so that the other one would have to translate. So there was even that stop it, um, and it was beautiful, you know. We were so open with each other and you know, shared our desires and you know, things that I didn't even know about, you know, that that really just came alive with this person. And then we, you know, we had this beautiful, you know, very open, non-judgmental, gorgeous relationship, and we explored so much together, and and that's how I got into Tantra. So we went to some Tantra classes together, and you know, I you know, I I came through a lot of sexual shame while I was while we were together, and um, yeah, he opened opened up my body to things that I didn't even know could happen, you know, even possible in my body.
SPEAKER_00Um and how lovely uh that you guys living long distance like created you you're talking so much about how slowing down is what allows you to be in your body. And that was like in synchronistic, like the universe knowing maybe that that's what you needed, but if you guys were closer, that would never have happened. And yet it was like uh artificially created by the environment for you to learn to slow down with someone.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, and and then you know, with myself as well, you know, you know, I kind of I've gone on you know this up and down journey where, you know, at times, you know, I've been very open and I've been very wild, or I've been very curious or adventurous and you know, kinky, or you know, I've had all these, you know, wonderful experiences of of self-discovery and um you know moments with myself as well, where you know, you know, I used to I used to self-pleasure a lot, and it was, you know, and often it was you know to reach a destination, to reach a goal, you know, an orgasm.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, and and that was I mean because yeah, I was gonna say, because like who does not love that? That's like one of my I recently started keeping a vibrator in my um shower, and I'm like, I I look forward to my showers so much more like it's great to just you know buzz one out and move on with your day. Um so yes, that is a part. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and and there was, you know, a time where I thought, you know, I was I was having all this, you know, great fun with myself and you know, and and I knew my body very well, you know, I could, you know, kind of get to naught to 60 pretty fast sometimes. Sometimes I love it. I would even, you know, go to the toilet work or you know hell yes right now. And but but you know, there was I knew that there was something more. I knew that I'd experienced this in partnership and hadn't experienced the kind of levels of um pleasure that I'd reach with someone else. I wanted to learn how to do that by myself, you know.
SPEAKER_00Whoa, wait a second. I am I'm like putting it together now. So you at this point, you had had that experience with that partner, and a part of you is realizing I'm not content just having had this one experience with this partner and my in my individual practice hitting, you know, this level that is not at the level of what I was able to achieve with him. And you actually went as far as to go, like, oh yeah, I can probably do that all by myself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, oh my God. You know, I I I guess I I don't know. It was um I guess it was like a little challenge to me, you know, and and and also, you know, I came out of that relationship at the time, I just I don't think I was kind of ready to receive that kind of love that was there at the time and I had other lessons to learn.
SPEAKER_00and um came out of the relationship and you know met with other partners and and wasn't having that same sort of experiences so you know not only did I want to learn you know how to how to do that for me but also you know I was kind of like how can I teach this to to new partners you know how can I how I went down the the route of um wanting to learn how to teach sexuality you know and and teach connection and intimacy um but you know first of all I thought this starts with me you know I have to learn I have to learn how to do that for myself you know and um which how would you describe like the difference between those two right when you're talking about like this partner that you're experiencing maybe what we call like more of a tantric approach to connection sexuality intimacy sex and then after that completes these other partners that you were having it with like what were the the differences I mean I think some of it is just chemistry right we can connect in very well with another person.
SPEAKER_02I think you know we shared a lot of the same desires we were both very energetic both very sensual both very kinky you know we had a lot of the same um I guess kind of makeup you know in that sense and I you know I I think that that is something that we we do have all these um archetypes with it within us within our sexuality and all these kind of different parts just like we do in in in natural you know in everyday life everyday life yeah um you know I think we we just gelled really well in that respect um how it worked differently with other partners I guess there was parts of me that were being fed so like I have a like I was saying I have a very kinky side so I might have met a partner who was very kinky and so that part of me was being met but these other parts they say the energy part that really loved tantra you know or loved to have my feet washed with rose petals and then my body kind of yes please you know maybe that part of me wasn't bad or wait wait wait I know I know as I said yes please it like went over that other part so just tell it again because everybody's gonna be pissed at me that I spoke over you sharing another detail.
SPEAKER_00So what was the second part?
SPEAKER_02After the rose petals oh yeah your body just being like massaged and played with and teased and you know just given that time you know and I think that's another thing is you know something that I used to feel really guilty with is because my body needs a lot of time you know like give it a couple of hours of like you know soft gentle touch you know lots of space allow me to just fully open up and then you know there's so much more that can happen from that place you know but I kind of need that first and I used to feel so guilty.
SPEAKER_00I used to think oh I'm taking too much you know I'm taking up too much time or you know I would just feel guilty for for wanting that and this is like the plight of the high functioning like extra empathic woman is that we go through the world and we are already so overstimulated by the world that when you have a partner who just shows up and wants to push all the fucking buttons as fast as he can go and is in you within like five minutes and same I didn't know that until I met my current partner how much I was in a lot of ways experiencing the trauma of overstimulation of being rushed I'd never experienced it slow. So I just kind of you know is all I'd known so oh my sexuality just fits into his this is what we do and before I know it you know we're having penetrative sex where now I'm like holy shit there is a lot that I prefer happen before we ever reach that yeah absolutely you know and how and how painful that is as someone because a huge piece I and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this like I think a huge piece of our pleasure is the being in a down regulated space where you're actually in your body and you're not in like the fight flight freeze spawn.
SPEAKER_02Just that real opening up right and left side of that or that you know the opposite of that is when things do move too fast, you know, your body can completely shut down you know you might not feel any sensation at all or you might even feel pain. You know for me it was a lot of numbness for years you know not feel anything and and thinking that there was something wrong with me because of that you know or just hanging in there.
SPEAKER_00For me it was a lot of hanging in there while he's like trying to reach climax and feeling that like I'm at a point where it's not it's not great anymore but I can tell he's close and so I'm just kind of gritting my teeth and like please let this end soon even with partners that I liked. You know it's not even like oh I'm having sex I don't want to have it's just looking back my body was not warm enough not even close to warm enough for penetrative sex to actually feel enjoyable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah given that time for our body to just fully surrender. And again you know going back to what I was saying earlier about asking for permission asking for consent you know you know that is in a way you know your that is in a way for me anyway is is that consent. It's like that time you know taken before to allow to relax and then even you know even with partners you know I think somebody once asked me you know can I enter you and I was like oof you know like that so good you know I thought well yeah of course because you know like you know I could feel it my body opened up to that and it felt beautiful you know and and the difference between how that felt in my pussy to how it felt when everything just moved too quickly or I was doing somebody else or it's a big difference. And so you know giving our body that space um yeah I think it's huge.
SPEAKER_00You know I think a key aspect so this month in the community we're focusing a lot on embracing desire like owning our desires and I've noticed I think it a part that makes it so difficult to even have desire when it comes to sensuality is if it hasn't felt good, why would you desire it? You know? And um so I really wanted to hear from you like when did you first realize that you had what I think for most of us is like a broken relationship with desire you know we I think there's the heart of it is we've never really experienced true embodied pleasure so it's hard to even desire it. And then for many of us the things that we have desired have been shamed culturally right the fantasies you had there was no framework for that actually being okay for a woman to want so how did you first realize like oh there's a lot of shit in here that has compressed or negated my abilities to experience pleasure or feel desire yeah I think again that's kind of being different moments you know so different times in my life where I was experiencing something and um you know maybe had this opening of like realizing oh this is pleasurable for me but then I'm having all of this shame and then working through that and then feeling open again and then maybe something else happens or something changes within me or you know I really I don't know if I'm doing a very good job of explaining this but I feel like it's been many moments not just one you know the many moments of having these really expansive points in my life and then kind of really contracting back into shame or you know something else or you know so it it has been and it still continues to be a journey learning and understanding and you know accepting things about myself and and just having a lot of love for myself you know in those moments throughout expansion and contraction you know where you know you know I don't I don't ever see it as um oh okay you know like I've finally done it I found finally broke through all the shame or you know it's like a lifelong thing yeah I I had a I I can't believe I'm gonna talk about this but I had a moment a couple of weeks ago and um I was with a lover and and I bit them like I bit them you know like and you know tell us tell us more Ranel it was you know in the moments of of passion and you know it was just this kind of nibble and you know and he loved it you know he loved it but um you know afterwards I noticed all the shame arise about it you know I thought oh you know what what kind of lunatic are you you know you know it felt really visceral at the time it was almost like I was possessed by something else of doing that and you know it was like wild eyed and you know it just kind of happened and and afterwards you know I felt I had to like do a lot of work on it for a couple of weeks you know like you know why it was that I was feeling that way and and I think you know there was a lot of like this good good girl conditioning that came out like oh you know like biting's bad yes didn't do that and you know or how much you how much you liked the biting is bad this like feral when you said you got kind of like wide eyed and crazy like I have full on biting sessions with Joe where he can just tell it's like a day where I'm feeling bitey and I will be like I just need to bite the shit out of you like and I will bite bite bite bite bite bite bite bite bite bite bite bite bite and yeah it's it's like whoa wait a second there's this part of me that I didn't know was in there like same when it first came out and what a gift right to have partners that went yes instead of being like what are you doing are like oh okay let's you know and that's that's a huge piece of feeling safe in those spaces with partners right to allow new desires spontaneously to arise and to act on them in that moment.
SPEAKER_02Yeah because you know it definitely felt you know connected to some sort of like feminine rage and and I spoke to my brother and you know definitely what you're saying they're very you know they're very understanding and they're able to hold the feminine in kind of whatever expression comes out of her you know and in that moment you know there was it felt you know something like you know primal that came out of me as a woman you know I've always been told to not like not let out my rage you know not let not let it out and you know you know and fearing that kind of label that society has that says that we're unhinged if we do right anyway and and when I kind of really sat with that for a while and and you know thought about the shame and you know that I was feeling and then kind of feeling into that and the moment I felt into that shame I had the and you probably know this little wicked grin that I get right yeah you know I felt that little kind of wicked part of me come through and you know I just burst out laughing cackling and you know and I thought what you know what a glorious lunatic I am and how wonderful it is yes myself that way and so you know it's ongoing you know it's ongoing I have these moments and you know each time I do I feel like I open up into a greater acceptance of myself and my sexuality and sure there's gonna be many more moments in the future and and so you know it's it's ongoing. So there's moments.
SPEAKER_00Yeah because it sounds to me like you know Tantra is very non-goal oriented like we're trying to reach a destination as much as it is the journey. Yeah absolutely absolutely you know just as I I guess just as it is with life you know it's for for me and my understanding of it it really is just becoming intimate with all that we are you know the shadow kind of loving it all you know and and that is at the heart of Tantra you know love that you know that my partner was able to just love me in that moment even though you know it seemed off for me for him he loved it you know it wasn't for him it was a very pleasurable moment you know it was me that had the problem it's it's so healing to kind of we I love when you brought up the good girl conditioning right when you get to a space and you're we're talking about it like the you know all these moments where some part of you comes out to the surface that does not fit the conditioning you've been told of what the good girl or the good mother or the good wife or the good sister, you know, whatever role you're supposed to be playing oh if you were good at that you wouldn't like this or you wouldn't be doing this. And I think that's why when you look at like kinks that people love being called like a good girl when you're doing very naughty things is such a erotic turn on because like you said when you got that little wicked smile it's realizing and I love playing with that too in that space like reclaiming yes I am biting my partner and I feel naughty and a little vicious and at times I'm not the nicest and it kind of hurts um and that is the very thing that because I'm in this you know with a partner that can hold space also loves it right loves seeing me um buck those throw off those conditions who doesn't need me to play a role for him it actually adds that element of like exciting rebellious like hmm I get to side I get to decide what me being a good girl means and I think biting means I'm a very good girl yeah you know it it it really is it's you know embracing both those polarities you know the bad girl and the good girl and you know the kind of dark bisexuality and then the lighter more gentle you know yes like range it's so much about not just these you know oh stereotypical this is what the experience looks like as much as it is the range of being fully human. I would love because this is a part of your story you've kind of referenced a couple times, right? The like multiple instances feeling like moments of expansion and then contraction um sharing a little bit because one of the things I love most about your story that I've also experienced is you know you had this really expansive experience with a partner who was able to hold space and more grounded and had more of a tantric perspective to sex. And then I know later on in your life you had a partnership that wasn't that way. I would love if you're open to sharing because I think you know especially for my women considering divorce there can be this idea that like if you're in a relationship that's maybe narcissistic or abusive and you get out of it that then you're gonna find somebody and you're never going to experience that again and you not experiencing it means you did a good job when the reality for me as well is that you know I have dated and been with partners since my ex-husband who actually were more abusive or less open in certain ways.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I mean yeah you that's definitely an experience that I've had you know where I've had these really beautiful safe loving relationships and then gone into relationships you know for me there's been a lot of distrust a lot of um a lot of lies a lot of infidelity um a lot of gaslighting yeah and and and and felt that they were very abusive relationships you know and and there there's been you know fear of getting into relationships again where that might happen again because you know there has been moments of being in these beautiful relationships and then kind of falling back into that. Yeah so there's been I guess moments in my life or periods of my life where you know I've been in these really loving safe relationships and you know certainly there was a time where that just almost felt alien to me you know to be in a relationship that felt safe that was offering love and really asking for nothing in return and and what felt more familiar to me was being in a relationship felt unsafe you know there was this excitement there and you know I I recognized that as love at the time you know this because that's the that's what I'd learnt you know that safe that love was conditional and love was unsafe and you know that's uh from you know my experience as a young girl that was what I knew as love and so there's times where I've fallen back into those patterns where you know something that was really painful felt like love to me.
SPEAKER_00You know it felt like that kind of unease that I had in my body um you know the betrayal the lies you know the abuse the gaslighting that kind of felt normal and it felt exciting and you using that word exciting I just want to highlight that because I think that's when when you're describing that that's that if you grow up in a world where you are dysregulated all the time and adrenaline is your go-to yeah dysfunctional relationships feel often more comfortable because they are what you are used to. And I so relate to this because in the last year of dating my partner on the podcast I've mentioned that like when it's been at its safest is times when my brain goes what the fuck we need to get out we need to sabotage this and my disorganized attachment style right which comes from my my parents the abuse the neglect that I experienced or you know formative sexual experiences in my youth even if they were with other partners of realizing oh yeah love isn't safety love is drama and love is circular conversations and being told who I am and defined so of like I love you showing that yeah our brain does there's a draw there.
SPEAKER_02And you know for me I've um ended up in very controlling relationships as well. And one ones you know specific was very controlling and there was something in that that kind of made me feel loved I was like, oh gosh, you know, like he feels so strongly and so passionate about me. And and I loved the attention as well that I got from him sort of controlling. And there's a lot of lessons to be learned, you know, in those experiences, right? And a lot that we can take from it. And you know, and I think now, like feeling that in a relationship now, for instance, say for the in the control aspect, you know, I know that I need to have that, I need to have really strong boundaries, and I bring them out from the start. And you know, there's there's times where, you know, and I've had that recently where a lover that I'm with wants to be monogamous, and I don't. I don't, you know, I'm not, I don't want to be in in a relationship, and and I've had to state that, and they've wanted to push those boundaries, and there was, and I th of course they have. They're like, let me lock you down, run L. And you know, in the past, I may have gone, okay, yeah, let's do that. Let's, you know, let's override those boundaries within myself because you know, maybe I want to please the other person or I don't want to hurt them, or and it takes a lot to go, no, you know, no, I know myself, I know what I want, and I have to stick with this, you know, I have to honor what is true for me right now, and and that doesn't mean that that might change or that change, but where I am right now and what I want right now is this, and yeah, and and if we can't meet somewhere, then then I have to walk away. And and that doesn't come from um you know being avoidant, or it's just knowing myself and checking in and going, what is it that I really want right now? And just honoring that. And and you know, in the past I haven't done that. I haven't.
SPEAKER_00I've gone along with what worked for somebody else because we're so we're so socially cultured, um, you know, socially trained as women to prioritize the good girl always takes care of everybody else. She wants what other people want first. She's not selfish, she's not greedy, you know, those are the words that are used. So I'm thinking specifically, like, you know, I would I would say a lot of my women will relate to the feeling of maybe being in controlling relationships or being in patterns that they don't want to be in in their marriages. Um and I'd be really interested to hear, you know, maybe one small action that you would recommend that they could take in those moments that will maybe connect them back in, right? If they're feeling like, I have no idea what I want, I don't even know how to articulate it. Where's a good starting point for them?
SPEAKER_02Always dropping into the body, right? That's always a good is like how how do I feel in this moment, you know, like really connecting in with our emotions and then connecting them with the sensations in our body, you know, maybe bringing the situation to mind that we're thinking about, you know, and and you know, if we're say we want to make a decision, you know, about something, you know, bringing that situation to mind and and really just feeling how that feels in our body. And that's a kind of one telltale sign, you know, but you know, some people might be different, you know. If you start to think about something, you might instantly just have a feeling, a knowing, you know, and and it'll, you know, your intuition will just tell you something. And it's starting to, I guess, exercise that muscle, you know, and it's not something that may might write away, you know, it is it is like learning to play an instrument or you know, learning any skill, you know, is like learning how to really check in. And you know, I truly believe that our body is such a good kind of I want engage to absolutely feeling to, you know, obviously if if you start to feel sort of tension and gripping, or you know, like maybe a bit of heat. I mean, that could be two things. Heat could be excitement, right? But you know, like it feels uncomfortable. And it could, that could be fear as well. You know, that could also be fear, you know, it's something new, but again, like learning when when the sensation means one thing and when it means another. And that takes time, that takes practice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so I think just really again, just getting really intimate with yourself and and being also gentle, because we're not always gonna get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong, and that's okay, or you know, like, is there any is there yeah, is there is there a getting it wrong? But I think just being really gentle, being really gentle with ourselves, you know, and and knowing that we don't always have it all figured out and and that's okay. We're learning, you know, every day we're learning.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we can slow down. Absolutely. I I one of the biggest messages that came through for me in my journey was like, I slow down to speed up. Because if I'm just continuing to push, push, push, push, push, but I'm pushing in the wrong direction, then that's gonna take longer than just slowing down and figuring out what the right direction for me is in this moment. And if I slow down and figure out the right direction, then it is gonna be faster because then I'm on the track that's leading me to where I most wanna be, instead of swirling and you know, all over the place, just trying to rush and get away from often we're get trying to get away from that sensation in the body.
SPEAKER_02Often, yeah, absolutely. But yeah, yeah, nail on the head there is like really just slowing down, stopping and and taking it step by step, you know, a little, little by little, I think is the way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I would love to hear, I'm just curious to like drop into present day for you. You know, you've been on this journey since your 20s. What gives you the most pleasure? And oh, and this, so before I ask you this question, one of the things I wanted to explore with you was, and we talked about this, and I loved your perspective on this, that desire isn't just about sex. Pleasure isn't just about sex, it's so much bigger than that. So, will you, and I think that's gonna maybe surprise women on this, because I think we often think of pleasure and desire only in the realm of sexual sexuality. So tell me about your ideas on like thinking about it bigger than just in the realm of sex.
SPEAKER_02Um, well, yeah, like we can find pleasure in everything, really, everything that we do, you know, whether we are just doing the washing up or cooking dinner, or you know, especially cooking dinner, it's like, how can I bring more sensuality into that? You know, maybe I can put on some beautiful music and dance or my glass of myself, a glass of wine while I'm doing it, you know, and but really being present in that, you know, being present in that that is a sensual experience and recognizing that as a sensual experience, you know, doing the dishes, like paying attention to the water, connecting, you know, with the spirit of that for me is a really beautiful thing, you know, or you know, taking a walk in nature, I can find that to be a very sensual, erotic experience sometimes because I get to feel, you know, when I slow down in that way and I go out into nature, you know, I feel myself connected. I feel myself connected with myself. And you know, when you start to feel those kind of like sort of tingles in your body, and and I'm feeling it now, just talking about it, you know. So I think any moment, anything that we do can be an erotic experience or it can be a sensual, sexual experience, you know, and depends how what kind of lens we're looking at at it from, you know, and but really you know, even how we get dressed in the morning, you know, like start to play these little games, you know, of like when we're putting our socks on. Imagine like really slowing down, you know. Imagine like pulling some stockings up your legs, you know. We can do that every morning when we're getting dressed. Yeah. We can you know, or you know, just wearing nice underwear and no one else knows that's kind of thrill that you know, or even not wearing any underwear at all, you know. I think that's going more into the realms of eroticism, right? But you know, like we can, you know, how we drink, how we taste, you know, if you're a very sensual person, you know, really slow down when you're eating and taste the flavours of everything, you know. Be really conscious when you're doing things. And I think when we start to do that, like when we really become super present with everything that we do, you know, that's when we start to experience the pleasure of life. You know, it might be just a sound or but just really tapping into our senses, you know, at all at all times. And of course, there's gonna be times that we forget and we go on to autopilot, but just in the moments that we do remember, you know, just thinking about like, well, how could this moment be more pleasurable?
SPEAKER_01More pleasurable.
SPEAKER_00I loved you talking about the goosebum, like that kind of tingly feeling, because same, I know that is a very um pleasurable feeling for me. And I often, I've recently been thinking that, like, oh, pleasure is what tap me into aliveness. Like when I am feeling more pleasure from, you know, sun on my skin, the way something tastes, turning on music, really interacting with my senses, I move through the world in a more alive way, right? Now, I'm curious, and the reason I'm thinking of this is because I know there's gonna be a lot of women on this call that, you know, did you feel when you were in a relationship with someone who was maybe more controlling or gaslighting you, was it more difficult perhaps to feel that pleasure or to feel that aliveness, or maybe a feeling of like not feeling safe enough to really, you know? I I want, I feel like there may be women on this call that are like, I just don't even feel safe enough to in the space I'm in. Have you noticed that in partnerships for you?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, absolutely, and I'm really glad you brought that up because you know, I I was doing a lot of this work while I was in a partnership like that, and I would be going away and maybe going out for a nature walk, and I would come back feeling great and feeling super connected, and then just being hit with something where all of a sudden my nervous system would just go into uh you know overdrive and and I would I would come completely out of that, and you know, I would have to do a lot of work to then get myself back to that. So absolutely it it definitely makes a difference, and yeah, and learning skills to kind of regulate your nervous system in those moments is something that's super helpful that we can do, you know, just taking yourself away from the situation, taking some deep breaths, um maybe just giving yourself a little hug and just being like, they're there, you know, like they're there for myself. You know, I felt that sense of connection come back where you know my body just remembered moments of of times where I was taken out of it and that feeling of what it was to be in that sense of quite flight or freeze, you know, and and so yeah, it absolutely does. And and you know, like thinking about this in a different perspective, you know, of finding pleasure in every moment, you know, like we can also find pleasure in in those moments too, right? So like if we imagine moments that we don't consider pleasurable experiences, so moments where say we're angry in the car because somebody's caught us up or and we have that feeling come over us, you know, starting to even drop into those moments. So there's moments of where we don't like, that we that we don't usually connect to as pleasure and feeling the sensation of that. So maybe, you know, or like even if you've had a good cry, you know, just dropping into this and oh yes, cry, you know, and and I'm not saying that, you know, we can find super pleasurable moments right off the bat in a situation where we have been triggered in that way, or we have been, you know, we feel unsafe in our bodies. Um, but it is possible, you know, it is it is possible.
SPEAKER_00But you know, and and you're talking about like a very, I just want to like acknowledge that what you're talking about is like a really beautifully high level of um, you know, it's in the meditation practices, it's in where you learn to be with life from this space of interacting with and dare I say, you know, finding pleasure or loving all that is. And that doesn't mean you stay in the abuse or you let the things happen. But what it does do is I think pleasure is very powerful, you know? And so even if the pleasure is that in that moment, you are feeling the pleasure in your body and noticing my body is reacting, my body doesn't like this. And maybe you're allowing yourself to acknowledge I'm angry about this, and you're feeling pleasure in the asserting of your own anger. Like I think, you know, yes, it sucked being in those relationships, uh, but the journeys I had to get out of them, if I look back, there was a lot of pleasure created in the power of extricating myself, of really seeing that I was powerful enough to, you know, it's like the rebelliousness of finding pleasure when somebody else is trying to completely control your life and tell you you can only have pleasure in these ways, and reclaiming, like, no, I get to have it my way and I get to have my life and going on that journey of reclamation. Yes, it's hard. There's lots of pain, those interactions are not what most of us would consider pleasurable, but there's that way of looking at it where it is the pleasure of it's why people climb Mount Everest.
SPEAKER_02When you're only walking away from something like that, you know, that kind of act of defiance, you know, that strength that you feel when you have made that decision and you go, I'm not gonna do this anymore. You know, I'm not I'm not doing this anymore. And you know, even in that moment of like tension and the the difficulty that you're going through, you know, when you feel into the powerful sensations that you're feeling in those moments, there's pleasure in that. There's pleasure in those acts of defiance and and and walking away, if that makes sense, and choosing absolutely yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'm so glad we like dived into that right here at the end because I feel like that was such a gem, expanding that with you. And I loved you bringing in such a like that's I consider that a really high-level coaching principle that you can find pleasure even in the things that are really difficult. And I love thinking of it as like a source of power when you do. Yeah, when you claim your life in all its facets, you get back the ability to kind of influence it, to change it. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Ah, Renelle. Oh my God. I am so I just want to express first off my immense, immense gratitude for you coming on the podcast. First off, this has been such a yummy episode with you, and I have a feeling I'm gonna need to have you on in the future to give us some more lovely stories and maybe even some practices because you do, you know, we talked a lot about the overarching principles, but you actually, when you're saying, you know, the work and what it takes and getting into the body, that's what you do as a coach.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. Very much. Um I would say a lot of somatics, so a lot of getting into the body and really feeling what's there and just being present with it, you know, without even having to connect to any stories about it, but just really feeling what is going on in our bodies and and just allowing allowing these parts to come through, you know, these parts to be witnessed, you know, the good ones, the bad ones. I mean, especially the bad ones. I love playing with dogs. Am I playing?
SPEAKER_00Which is which is hard. And that's one of the things I loved the most about you when you were coaching me. It's hard sometimes to see those parts of yourself, the ones you say are bad, without a compassionate witness holding space. You know, and that is what you are so good at is that playful, open. I mean, you guys can hear it in her voice, right? It's so that is her essence of everything gets to be here, nothing, you know. And it really did. For me, so many of my parts came forward with you that felt like they could be seen from that safety of it's not going to be judged, nothing's gonna be off the table. Yeah, it's truly a gift. Um, I would love for you to give a little sneak peek because not only is Ranelle giving this gorgeous podcast episode to all of you in the stare-go world, but she is also coming in to do a workshop for all of the women in the community. So, you know, speaking to those practices, right? What are some of the practices that you're gonna be bringing in in that workshop?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I'm super looking forward to coming and spending the morning. Um, but yeah, we're gonna be going into our bodies, feeling a little bit of pleasure in our bodies, um, allowing ourselves to really connect in and be with present with what's there. Um, we're also gonna be doing, I'm gonna leak guide you through some stuff, um, a little bit, some of the things that I've learned along along the way. And also we're gonna be doing a deep meditation, like through the heart, into the room space, and really connecting in with uh what's that? What what are our desires? Connecting in with our higher self and and asking her to us as well. So, yeah, it's gonna be super gentle, very um delicious in our bodies. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to guiding you all through it.
SPEAKER_00I am too. We picked, what did we pick a week? We picked Sunday 23rd. We picked that today. It's gonna be a Sunday morning workshop. Like, hell yes, which is so sweet. If you guys couldn't hear, Ranella's over in the UK. So we had to do a weekend one, which is so generous of her. I'm really looking forward to this. Um I would just want to say, too, for those of you like, you know, I'm always talking on the podcast about whether it's me you work with or somebody else finding someone to support you. And if you have felt that zing with Ranelle, we're going to have her website listed in the show notes. It's such a gift. Like, if you ever feel a zing with a coach, reach out, make some kind of connection, find a way to see if that is your person because it makes a world of difference when you find that person that has your same energy or that vibe or that transmission that is the next step for you. She's also, we're gonna put her Instagram in. She said, I'm like so excited. You said you're rebranding it soon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm gonna I have I'm not gonna share what the new what the new name is just yet. But um, but you can currently find me at Tantra Maha, but that is gonna be changing soon, just so you know.
SPEAKER_00I love it. I love it. I'm here, it's you know, it's my favorite thing about Taylor Swift. Like if you don't have various eras, you're not doing it right.
SPEAKER_02Like you gotta have, and you know, I I I definitely I definitely fall in the realms of like a shape shifter, you know, right? We don't mean change. So um, so yeah, I'm very comfortable with with change.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I love it, I love it. Yeah, amazing. Thank you, thank you, my love. For those of you wanting to get in on that workshop, make sure I will have Alex's link in the show notes that code you can text that will take you right over to the community, and we will get you onboarded and you will get to be in there with all of us.
SPEAKER_02So thank you, Rena. I've really enjoyed it. It's beautiful as always to sit and chat with you and just be in your company. So, yeah, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00So wonderful, so special. All right, everyone, till next week.