Welcome to the Stay or Go podcast, where we're changing the dialogue around divorce so that no woman ever stays in her marriage out of fear. Get ready to dispel myths, learn life-changing tools, and build a solid foundation in yourself from which to make your decision. And now your host, me, Britta Joe. Yummy, yummy, yummy. I have someone very special recording with me today. Um, Quinn O'Trera from the Post-Divorce Glow Up podcast. As you all know, my bestie, my coach, the one who keeps me sane. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. Between you and Joe, we're gonna steer this ship into harbor. Um so yes, Gwynn and I are together today. Y'all, we have we have persevered uh to get this episode going. We were gonna record it a couple days ago and technical difficulties. I could hear her voice, but it wasn't recording. We spent like an hour troubleshooting that.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, we did.
SPEAKER_04Only to have it not be resolved. And we were like, this is me, this is how I handle things. I'm like, let's just do it Sunday. I'm sure it'll magically be better than. And lo and behold, it still was the same problem. So about 30 minutes of troubleshooting today, and we have finally, with a new app downloaded on my computer, found the solution. So we are feeling triumphant and ready. It's yeah, like I think we're more excited about this episode than we were before because it feels like we've had to just get over each obstacle to make it come. So it's it's gonna be really yummy, y'all. We have an uh really, really beautiful um part one episode talking about kids and divorce, which y'all have been asking for this one for a long time. This is definitely one of the top three biggest reasons um or concerns that you have when you're coming to me worried about you know what's gonna happen um if you get divorced or not. So it's been on the docket for a while. It feels really good to finally get to record it. And to start off, we are just gonna dive in. A really beautiful entry point for this first part of the discussion is straight out of the gate, just discussing these potential disadvantages of divorce that are on your minds when you're considering. So, Quinn, we were talking about how, you know, one of the biggest things that we're that we hear people being afraid of, um, and that you and I definitely were, yes, was this idea that we're gonna ruin our children's lives by getting divorced.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And it was kind of this overarching fear. And it was through coaching with you that you helped me define what exactly do you mean by ruining your children's lives? Because I I realized in that moment that for years it was just ruin, it was devastation. But when we drilled down, there were some very specific fears that could be addressed. But when we speak in terms of just ruin, it will be terrible, maladjustment or whatever it is, the big words, and our brains tend to do this to keep us safe and in our comfort zone. But it it was only in really looking directly at what does that mean for me? And it looked different for me, given who my husband is and our situation. It's different for me than it was for you, what ruining their life would look like. But I was definitely terrified of that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I love you bringing up the way our brain generalizes, just big overarching. You Quinn's favorite thing when she was going through it was a lot of like, my kids are gonna suffer, suffer. And we had to like really dig down into the facts of what does that suffering potentially look like. So some of the things that we came up with when we were thinking of, you know, when we are afraid we're gonna ruin our children's lives, what are we actually talking about? And we're talking about, you know, statistics where they talk about kids potentially being at a disadvantage, which would look like things where they are not well adjusted afterwards, or they're struggling in school, or they're struggling with friends, maybe even like through the process of the divorce and after.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So those are just a few of those pieces that I would say like tie in. Another, we had like three different sections that we kind of had under this whole ruining of children's lives. So the first one was that they'd be at a disadvantage in certain ways. The next one was a big fear of kids' suffering, like you said, which comes down to emotional distress, feeling angry, feeling very sad and confused. Which from both of our podcasts, you guys will know now, we're like, yeah, bring it on. Like this is this is a human reality. Yes. But for a lot of people outside of the coaching world, the goal is to make sure your kids never hurt or never feel sad or never get angry. So just notice you may have a fear of your children having normal emotions that you may think, because of the way our culture's programmed us, are not okay.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_04And then the final piece was like these adjust adjustment challenges, which are where they've got new routines, they're now splitting time between homes. The normal, I'm putting in air quotes, you know, normal, cohesive, everybody lives in the same house, everybody does the same thing, has changed.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04And with change, we often see a little bit of some some rough spots. Most humans don't like change very much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, what were some other um things on our list? I want you to bring up some of the other things, Quinn, that we had discussed being potential disadvantages of divorce.
SPEAKER_01I was very sad that I wouldn't have my kids full time and I really wanted them as much as I could. That has changed. After a little while post-divorce, when they it was a situation where they were with me during the week for school, and then they were with their dad on the weekends. I grew to really love that. And now he's out of state and I have them full time. So it has changed. But at the time, at the point of considering divorce, I could not imagine a Christmas without my children or one of their birthdays without them there. The and going through the divorce, you know, they were gone on the weekends and trying to find ways to fill my time without my children because I had been, they had been my life. And it took me some time to grow into myself, to refill myself. But at the time I was very worried about that. And part of that was also being worried about what would happen when they were with their dad alone. Yes. Because he tends to have a temper and he has a different parenting style, and I would not be there to mediate the two sides. So I was I was afraid of what would happen. And it turned out to be justifiable fears.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I I see this one particularly because so many, a lot of women that have stayed, especially if there's a narcissistic or emotionally or physically abusive partner, you move into this mentality of like you're the buffer in between their dad and the kids. And so you get really caught up in playing this role and are so afraid that if you're removed, they won't be safe with their dad. And we are gonna at the end, so after we go through this list, we're gonna come back around and I'm gonna have each of us kind of dive in a little bit more on like which ones we actually experienced. Um, because like Quinn's hinting at, she did. This actually happened. And I love that we're gonna be able to give you that perspective because we're sharing these disadvantages, not to be like, and magically you will have none of them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. It's that you get to face these and it's all doable. We can do this. We can do this.
SPEAKER_04Yes, and that it doesn't mean you're gonna have all of them or none of them, like everybody's experience is so individual, and you'll see it from mine and Quinn's, just how different those are, and that even with very different, you know, quote, disadvantages coming out of a divorce, you can still, with I would say with the power of coaching and managing your mind. I'm not gonna say that this is an easy road to walk without knowing how to manage your mind, but true through through knowing how to process emotion and manage your mind, you can take even with these disadvantages, still have it. Both both Quinn and I would say we would not go back to our marriages. No. No, it's not a thing. No, yeah. So we mentioned having fear of what happens, you know, if you're no longer there when they're gonna be with their dad. Um you this is definitely one that comes up a lot of like fear of aloneness, not, you know, what am I gonna do when I'm not with my kids, especially if you've been like a full-time parent or the primary parent. Um, I have a client right now I'm thinking of who, yeah, is just really, really emotionally couple clients, actually, who cannot imagine what it will feel like to be away from their kids. And even when they are away from their kids, there's a lot of stuff coming up. Um, one of the things that was big on my mind, and that also is a huge worry, is money. You know, if you are not the breadwinner, or even if you know you do work, but you don't make the main amount of the income, that loss of that income it can be really, really intimidating. And then that also ties into there's just so many statistics out there that are you know specifically made, created with the agenda of making it look good to have a two-parent household. And so, and one of those is that financially, you know, it's very well documented that women coming out of marriage have less money than they did previously, which I would love your little take on statistics, because as we were talking about this, Quinn was like, you gotta be careful with those. So why do you gotta be careful with those, Quinn?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think for a couple of reasons. I think that so much of what we well, there's that quote. There's lies, there's damn lies, and there's statistics. And we can I may never heard that quote. Oh, really? Yeah. That there's it's so important to dig down a little bit and and to see both sides. And it does seem to indicate that women take a hit financially, and men take a bigger hit socially and emotionally post-divorce. And even if we take a hit financially, it's okay. I mean, that for me, it was it was survival. Like I had never, I couldn't imagine how I on earth like I would survive financial benefit, like we weren't selling a house or something for money that I could start again. It really was from rock bottom, but I've gotta say I figured it the fuck out. Like these are just statistics, they are not necessarily your story.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yes, yes. This is why I love the two of us together, Quinn. You guys are so lucky to have both of us on this episode because uh Quinn's story is so uh uh incredible. And I I I'm excited to dive in a little bit after we've finished this list to like just talk about how many disadvantages you came out with and still are like this. I you know, both of us would say this was better for us and this was better for our kids. Oh, for sure. Even with the disadvantages. So one of the final ones that we had talked about was this single momming it, which is a fear, right? That you're gonna um, especially if you have a co-parent that's gonna dip out and not be there or not show up for parenting time, that you're gonna have no breaks, you're gonna have to do it all on your own. Yeah. Um that is absolutely, you know, a fear that a lot of you have. So now that we've kind of given you a list and we've just done like a brief, and by no means is this a comprehensive list. I'm sure there's ones you all can think of that's like your specific thing, but these are the ones we could come up with, and I want to talk a little bit about our nuanced experiences with them. Um so we can even just start with this whole single momming it piece because I remember people being like, oh my god, it's gonna be so much harder to parent when you're not married. And once I got divorced, I realized oh, I've been single momming it.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04Do you remember?
SPEAKER_01Yes. It's like getting divorced just got rid of one of the kids, the most unruly child, most difficult to help. And these other kids, I got this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. For for me in my specific situation, um, especially with the Mormon conditioning, I mean, we both had it pretty rough in that we had uh spouses who had also been programmed by that patriarchal religion into like work, work, work, work, work, provide. And uh my ex is an investment banker. So he was just gone all the time working. And that actually ended up being a huge benefit when I got divorced because it was like, oh, here I was so afraid about doing it on my own. Actually, for me, in my specific situation, being divorced is easier raising my children than it was married.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_04Because now I don't see them half the time. And as I've said on this podcast very clearly, me having my children 24-7 as a stay-at-home mom, as Quinn will attest, is not good for my mental health. I it is it is not a fit for me. Where Quinn, when you said the whole you being sad about not having your kids all the time. Like, this is an area where we differ greatly because once I got divorced and didn't have my kids half the time, I was like immediately like, sweet, you know, what are we gonna be all doing? You know, trying out rock climbing, trying out this and that. Um and I'm sure that's because you know, I got married so young.
SPEAKER_01I really child, yes.
SPEAKER_04And I raised all my siblings. So this was like the first time I'd had the freedom of I can get to know and figure out who I am.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I really didn't have, I did not end up with the disadvantage of like the single momming it, and I still haven't. Here we are, five years out, and actually my ex-husband has leaned in more, I would say, to co-parenting and then yeah, the not missing my kids.
unknownAs amazing as they are.
SPEAKER_04There is never, I think there was like the very first Christmas, maybe, where I had like a moment where I had a good cry of like, I'm alone. And then the next day I met a guy off Tinder and I was like, this is fucking awesome. I'm having do you remember that? It was Christmas Day, is when I met Matt. Yeah, who is now my best friend. We dated off and on, and now he he's like family to me. But yes, I I cried the night before about being alone, and the next day I met Matt and had the most fabulous Christmas day of all Christmas days prior to that. Yes. Okay. So in those areas, but an area where we both have experienced, I would say, is money for sure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's but for me, it got much better financially. So much better than when I was married. And and you know, part of that is that I am earning money myself, and part of it is that there is a court order in place to where my ex can't just take all the money and spend it on his entrepreneurial gamble. Oh my god, yeah. Yeah, money goes to his children, it gets deposited into an account. Whereas in the past, I had zero control over that. And so now, financially, so much better, so much more stability, so much more peace than I ever had in the brain.
SPEAKER_04You it was wild on your when when the book comes out one day, Quinn, about the ins and outs. There are moments where Quinn will share stuff that I'm like, wait, I'm sorry, can you repeat that? What? Yeah, there's still there are some, yeah, really, really intense things that you went through financially in your marriage. I was the opposite, right? The I was married to someone who was making a lot of money. And because of that, I I did have the whole, you gotta, you know, pay me out of this or the assets splitting. I had a a good amount of money, a very sizable amount of money coming out of my divorce. I was able to keep my home. He paid for it, like crazy things coming out of my divorce that really um were a huge. I'm not gonna say gift because Quinn's like, yeah, you deserved that. That was payment.
SPEAKER_01You earned it, you earned every penny, yes.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yes, yes, in that marriage, as a as a mother, all those things, but yeah, very different situations coming out of our divorces financially. Um, I got books, I got all the books.
SPEAKER_01I know, which was the most valuable thing to me, you know. I that's okay. I got the books.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and you uh Quinn really, I mean, you moved to a new city. This is so this goes down into even like the single momming it piece, where I we didn't have any family here, but that was kind of a gift because it made my ex-husband and I kind of be there for each other because we had no one else to really depend on. Plus, we just I'd l left the religion, so we had really no support group. But for you, Gwen, you moved to a different city.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, about 45 minutes away from where my husband still has his farm. I moved to Tucson. Don't know anyone at the time I move here.
SPEAKER_04It was such a fucking send, y'all.
SPEAKER_01I am so proud of myself talking to you. Yeah. Like, oh my God, I did that.
SPEAKER_04I remember, I remember. When I first came out and met you in person, we've been friends for a long time virtually. Yeah. And Quinn had me drive past the first apartment that she lived in with her kids when she moved to Tucson. And I was like, I think I might have gotten emotional and been like, I am so fucking proud of you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's it's it was a rough area. Lots of homelessness and you know, neighbors warning me to put up floodlights outside to discourage drug use. And actually, I felt very safe there. But it wasn't remember, I don't remember you being, you were not in like a panic.
SPEAKER_04This is just another great example of like the power of understanding how your brain works and not having it just run you ragged and getting regular coaching because we you were on top of that during that period. And I remember you were like sleeping in a closet.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. My bedroom was my little girl's closet.
SPEAKER_04Closet. Yes. Yes. So much like just bravery and then trusting your journey as you went along.
SPEAKER_01Like just better than marriage. So crazy that that is true. This is so much better than my marriage.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. But I think that just, I mean, I hope for those of you that are in situations where you are like, I am so miserable. How you know, yeah, we get it. Quinn Quinn gets it. There are definitely marriages out there that are that awful that moving to an apartment where you're living in a closet is a step up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just decided this was my origin story. And how amazing this is that I get to say, hey, I was living in a closet, and now I live in this lovely home, and I have this beautiful room that I could have all of my kids sleep in this room. Like it's just the contrast. It just gives me a deep appreciation and deep empathy for women. There are women who have it even rougher, who don't have their own apartment, that are hanging out on you know, relatives or move back in with family. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So no tears for me. It's just we are so capable. We are so capable. And sometimes we don't know it until we have no other choice.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yes. And we get to like spread your wings and realize how strong you really are. Yeah. Yeah. So when it comes to dropping in a little bit with um fear of what would happen when they were alone with their dad, that ended up not being it in my instance, things actually got better for my children with their relationship with their dad. My ex-husband really stepped up and um, you know, really showed up. I I feel very confident they have a better relationship with their dad now than they ever would have if we had stayed married. Because when we were married, he could just keep the old patterns going of always working and me just always catching, you know, catching the kids. And with that split time, he has he had to be a dad. And I've seen how much he has grown. Kind of like your ex having to like have to deposit the money.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04He now had to be a dad. Um, and for the first, you know, four years of our marriage, we had no family out here. His parents have just moved out, which has been a total huge gift to have just a you know, even more support for him and the kids on that side. And and for me, just knowing, you know, they've got other adults who love them. But for a long time, we did it without that, and he rose to the occasion. Yeah. Um, I know your situation has been different.
SPEAKER_01Yes. My husband remarried very quickly to a woman that he had known just a couple of days, but they have managed to stay married for a few years now. Um I had to get a protective order within um the first year. I've been to court with him multiple times for him not wanting to follow the parenting plan. I've had to file police report. He's come to my door and threatened to come at me with double barrels, and he's a gun owner. And so I, you know, I take these threats seriously, bought bear spray because I don't want to actually kill him, but I do want him to stay away from my front door. And I have bear spray too.
SPEAKER_04That's why I was chuckling. It was the same. I think we might have had this conversation where we're like, if I had a gun, would I actually shoot someone? And it was like, I don't think I would. What's the next alternative? Bear spray. Okay. Yep. Yep. So, y'all, if you're worried about that with the X, just it's on Amazon. I think you can get a two-pack for a good amount.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they even have it at Costco here, here in Tucson. Oh my god. Evidently, it's a thing that we need. Yeah. But ultimately, I'm able to keep my kids safe. Like there is a process. So when things went down and I needed to get a protective order, I was able to do that. And within my background, within Mormonism, I didn't feel like the men were there to protect the women and children. I felt like the men were there to protect other men. And I saw that time and time again, whether it was my dad intervening on my ex's behalf or clergy. But I found that within the legal system, my attorney is a man, the judge we go to is a man. And these men have really stepped up and helped me to protect myself and my children. And it has rebuilt a lot of confidence in the masculine that there are men who will help protect me. Not Mormon men, but nope. These men, these men have really helped me. There are ways. And it's in these men standing up to my husband, who is not used to having men call him on his bullshit. No. That has been, it has been key in helping him understand. He doesn't get to pull shit like this. It was it was really challenging for him to learn that he can't parent in the same way. He can't be violent. He he can't slap. He can't there are consequences. There are consequences.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_04That's so crazy. Because that goes back to that, like that piece of us being so worried about ruining our children's lives.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04And and that is just that piece of not being able to clearly see what is happening right now. Because you in some ways have yeah, become desensitized to the abuse. And and this is also that consequence that we don't think of of like becoming, which we'll talk about this a little bit later. We're gonna dive in a little bit with some of your your stories of like you becoming complicit in your children's eyes.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Enabling the abuse. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Because of the complicated dynamics of being in the position where to for some of you to stand up against your husband or to question him just opens up a whole nother shit show of him railing on you for a couple hours. And so maybe you just leave and you walk out of the room when they're being disciplined because you know if you speak up, he's gonna get upset or and what that does to your children. And a lot of the work I've done with my clients, and I've started to see how much that is a trauma in itself of your other parent not stopping the abuse. Yes. Yes. So keeping that in mind when we're worried about we're so worried about ruining our children's lives, we may be a little, if not a lot, desensitized to the level of what's actually happening right now in the marriage.
SPEAKER_01And one thing that was key for me to understand in going before the judge who ultimately granted this protective order was he talked about the need for my children to not only be physically safe, but to be emotionally safe. So while in Arizona, it is legal to hit your child as long as you don't leave a bruise, which I found out after my kids had their first vacation with dad and stepmom. And there was nothing I could do to protect them. But it finally escalated to a point where I could ask for the protective order. But the judge also pointed out that your children, if they are being regularly yelled at, if they are being regularly shamed, this is an important consideration as well. Your children deserve to be emotionally safe. Yes. And it helped me recognize that, yeah, there was some physical abuse. And not everybody deals with that. There are some men who won't cross that line, but there are men who, while they won't be physically abusive, they will be emotionally negligent or verbally abusive. Yes. Silent treatments can create a sense of safety. You know, there's lots of ways to abuse. And when we stay in those situations and they're not getting better, we become complicit. And I hate that so much that I stayed for so long in my complicity. But I am so proud of myself for finally, finally seeing it, finally calling it what it is, and having a parenting plan in place right now, where my children have the opportunity to opt out of their time with their dad if they do not feel safe. And they get to opt out. And it can be emotionally because he doesn't hit them now. But there are still some of my teenage children who say because of the way he parents, because of his shame-based way of trying to get us to comply, they don't feel safe.
SPEAKER_04I am so just uh so grateful that we have your experience, Quinn, because it's just I think for a lot of a lot of women, especially in situations like yours, right? The level of abuse that Quinn had in her marriage pre-getting divorced was different than mine. And I don't I don't even like really like I don't want to use that as like a comparison of like, oh, hers was worse than mine, because whatever you're in is your worst. Yes. Yes. But I love you being able to show this level because I think it and and and how much it has yes, it's been a journey for you post-divorce, fighting for these things and and fighting to have your children be protected. But you see it every day now in them. What a difference it has made now, knowing they have a voice, they matter, and just because an adult is their parent does not mean that person gets to treat them badly.
SPEAKER_01Yes, exactly. My kids know I will fight for them. We're in a situation right now trying to get medical care for my son, and his father will not speak to me, and I have to have permission from his father. We still have um joint decision making. And I'm having to go to court to get this life-altering fix for my son's heart. And but my son, he knows, he knows I will fight for him. I will take this all the way to court. I always hope I don't have to go back to court, but my son knows I will fight for him. And that was my older son didn't know that because I didn't fight for my older son who was 19 or 20 when the divorce happened. Yeah. And that has consequences.
SPEAKER_04Um I'm gonna bring us back to that piece specifically about, you know, this contrast between younger children, older children. I am excited to dig into you with that. I want to kind of tie up this first piece by addressing these last few. That yes, we've both seen, I would say, especially on my end, I definitely saw my kids in the beginning after the divorce. When I was going through the divorce, my oldest struggled in school. We definitely had like an incident that happened at the school where he got taken to the principal's office, and that was when it came out. They're like, hey, we're getting divorced.
SPEAKER_01Um and how old was he at this time? Yeah, so younger than mine.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Cal would have been like nine. Everybody was so young. I'm now that they're I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, Bo was Bo's eight now, so he was only three. So I had pretty young kids when it happened. And I would say there definitely was feelings like feeling angry, feeling sad. But because I had coaching, instead of trying to people please and manage and fix everybody with the like, it's gonna be fine, it's gonna be fine. I just was like, Yeah, this is sad. And and so I definitely did see my kids in the first, I would say the first year was probably the hardest. Going through the divorce was the hardest. First year after the hardest, and then each year after that, it's it's just gotten progressively better. Um, and I think because my kids were so young that actually that was a huge gift on the new routines and the splitting time between homes. They've just kind of always grown up with that. So, you know, Cal, it happened when he was nine. He was probably the one that struggled with it the most. But now when he talks to kids at school, he's like, I love it. I love that I have two different homes. Yeah. I love and I've got, you know, this at my dad's house, this at my mom's house. And like I said, that's a unique thing to me, right? I got I the way my divorce went down, I stayed in the home that we lived in. My ex-husband bought a home like four minutes up the road. So we live really close. And my custody agreement, you know, he does all almost all of the driving. My attorney knew what she was doing. And so he's always picking them up from here, and they when they get dropped off the bus. And so that really worked out really well for me. How do you feel it um was for your children as far as like the struggling in school, the emotional distress, specifically with the divorce?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the divorce was happening in fall of 2020. So this was COVID, and we had planned to move the kids to Tucson for school, and it just happened to coincide at the same time as the divorce, COVID, new schools, and some of the school was online. It was a rough year, independent of divorce as far as school went, at least here in Arizona. I think it was my nine-year-old as well that struggled the most. I had to switch schools for her. She wasn't up for the more aggressive academics of the school I had initially put her in and had to switch her. Luckily, it was it was okay because everything just kind of felt wonky that year with the masking. You could only go to school on certain days. It was it was just all so weird that the divorce just ended up being part of the world.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So it's hard to just say, oh, the divorce really impacted this because there were a lot of other factors in there. It was the next year when I had managed to purchase a home, moved to a neighborhood, and decided the kids were, I was pulling them out of these charter schools that we had moved to Tucson to attend. And I said, we're just gonna be in this place and we're gonna go to the neighborhood school. And that's when more of the challenges came up because my kids were now, um, they didn't live in a small town that, you know, we had initially moved to a really tiny town with a really tiny school when we first moved to Arizona. They were living in a neighborhood for the first time, going to school with kids from the neighborhood for the first time, trying to make friends in a different way. And that's when, um, again, that oldest of my youngest children. Um, so she would have been probably 10 at this time, nine or 10. And she would write me notes begging me to homeschool her. Please don't make me go to school. I don't want to, I don't have any friends. And she was the oldest in the elementary school and felt like everybody already had their friends. It was a rough year. It was rough, but I knew that she would get through it and just pouring some extra support her way. The others didn't seem to have the same struggles. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But she and I was gonna say, she's the one that just this year, right? Has kind of it's kind of clicked and she's found her crew.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Yeah, and she, I mean, you grow into it. It doesn't I know if they're struggling now at nine or ten, it doesn't mean they will always struggle. But now she has so much empathy. She's the girl that will try to include people, and she will come to me for support when she is feeling lonely or she wants to invite friends over because I know her journey. And we grew in trust in me showing up for her in the ways that I could. I couldn't homeschool her.
SPEAKER_04No, as Quinn's coach at the time, with everything Quinn was navigating with her own, you know, starting a business, and I was like, mm-mm-mm, we cannot sink this ship to try and save, or you know, yeah, save's not the right word, but you know, eliminate the suffering of and I would have had to get my husband's permission to homeschool, and there was no way in hell he was gonna do that.
SPEAKER_01No, so it was just a non-starter. But yeah, I mean, that was a time where it felt really shitty for me because even if I wanted to, I would still have to get permission from someone that wasn't going to give me permission. I don't think the courts would have given me permission. There was no reason other than my daughter was unhappy. So if he and I didn't agree, it wasn't going to happen. So there are some areas where you can fight for your children and you can protect them, and there are other times where it's just like just pouring so much empathy and like, I'm sorry you have to go through this, and I'm gonna be here to support you through it.
SPEAKER_04Yes, which is like what we want for our kids most is this understanding that you're gonna go through hard things and I'm here to support you. I'm not gonna come in and rescue you or save you because it's just not a long-term. That's the like um a little bit of the important mentality to have when we're thinking of like, yes, is this gonna be quote, harder on our kids? You know, they are gonna be in two different homes, they're gonna be navigating things they wouldn't if you stayed married. In some ways, it is gonna be harder. Um and that's That is just because it's harder in some ways doesn't mean it's bad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And we want that long term. We want them to know you're gonna go through hard things in your life, and I'm here to support you. And I have so much empathy. And you can do this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's what we want long term for our kids.
SPEAKER_04Versus just rescuing and making everything better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So I'm so glad we got to dive into all of these. It's kind of like our starting point. And what we want you most in listening to this, like kind of as you're reflecting after this episode, is realizing that yes, if you do decide to get divorced, some of these may absolutely be your reality. And as you saw, there are like areas in each of these where it where it does coincide with both yours or mine or um our realities. But this was something you a point Quinn made when we were discussing this outline that I really loved, where you said it's not a one-to-one reality, which is what so much of the fear-mongering pre-divorce is about, especially if you have a spouse who keeps saying, like, you're ruining the family, you're gonna ruin the kids. They really harp on that, like, this is guaranteed. Yes. And it's just not, it's so much more nuanced. There are so many different angles. You even saw us doing it. I noticed I was like, well, basically, we gave you all the disadvantages and then magically turned them into like how we worked through them and they were great.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_04But that's what our that's what our coach brains do. Like that was that's the technique that we used while going through it of like, okay, I can resist what is and hate this and make it worse by resisting it. Or I can lean in, drop down, feel all the fucking feelings that are gonna be a part of this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And keep trusting my inner truth, which told me this this is the next right step.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yes. It's such an important thing to understand that it's not an if-then statement. That's just not reality. If I get divorced, it's necessarily worse, or if I get divorced, it's necessarily better. So much of it has to do with the skills that you have, the skills that you build. And that's where the coaching comes into place because everything has to be filtered through this human brain. And the human brain is generally pretty negative and just wants to keep us safe. And so it would rather be in a marriage that is just shitty but known, rather than taking a step into the unknown. Your brain really wants you to not do that. But there is this part of you, if you know that this is the path for you, that you know, just bridling the brain to go, okay, yeah, some women suffer in this way, some women excel in this way. I wonder, I wonder what my path is going to be. Just coming at it with some curiosity and allowing, I love that you said non-resistance, because as I would drive my kids to school back in 2020 in a city where I knew no one, one of my biggest fears was what if I get a flat tire? What if something happens? What if I'm in an accident? I have no one to call. And I would drive to school with this intense anxiety just all the fucking time. And then just allowing it to be there and to bubble and to steam and just be like, oh, but I got me. I got me. Plus, there's triple A. I got me. I know we didn't.
SPEAKER_04I remember that coaching session where we were like, oh, isn't there a service? Like, I think there's that service.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that can be solved. That can be solved.
SPEAKER_04This could there are a lot of things that can be solved in different ways, but ultimately that is the most beautiful example of like, and then there are some things that just can't, and it's just for you to feel through it. And God, that is what makes Quinn and I such the powerhouses that you hear is that work, that work of staying with ourselves through really scary, intensely sensational moments of this journey and not abandoning ourselves. That's the retraining of that childhood trauma. Yeah. That is like, ooh, the deeper, deeper work.
SPEAKER_01Uh no. There was this part of my brain that thought it would be a good idea to stay with my husband so I had someone to call if I got a flat tire. So insane.
SPEAKER_04It is so accurate, though. It is so accurate. I have so many women that exactly are like, what am I gonna do? I don't know how to pay any of the bills. And I'm like, yeah, I didn't either. What happens if I get a leak? Yeah, I didn't know that. It like so many skills that, like you just said, you learn, you acquire, you especially for somebody that have just been really, you know, quote, taken care of in these ways, where like, I don't know how to do these things. If there's skills you can learn, yeah, that's something that you can either hire someone or figure out yourself. YouTube.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. YouTube, YouTube.
SPEAKER_04YouTube is fueling so many women's um, you know, smooth divorce trajectories.
SPEAKER_01Like, and the and the incredible sense of pride as you as you fluff off the infantilization that ha that was my past to learn how to do certain things that I've never done before. Just that sense of pride, like, oh, and my children get to see this, my six daughters get to see this, and my sons. Like, yeah, yeah, we can intentionally grow up, intentionally learn how to care for ourselves, our surroundings, our children. It's such an important growth process. You don't want to miss.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god, Quinn. I hope you guys can hear my snapping. Just dying. Um, okay. I want to take us into, especially as we were talking, I'm not even gonna remember what I was gonna tie it into. So I'm just gonna go straight into our next section, which I am obsessed with. And I have definitely Quinn's been coaching me a lot on this, and it's been helping tremendously. Um so I want you to share this quote that you read that talks about these different standards for mothers versus fathers.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so this is from the book For Better or For Worse: Surprising Results from the Most Comprehensive Study of Divorce in America. Such an important book that will give you facts, facts about divorce. And they break it down to what's happening right after divorce, two years, six years, ten years, twenty years, for all parties involved. And so this is about the men. The 14% of men in our study who had custody of their children also felt overwhelmed by family demands. But custodial fathers often had buffers unavailable to custodial mothers, including money to hire domestic help, and probably even more important, a more forgiving view of the parental role. In households headed by the father, youngsters were more likely to be required to keep their room tidy, to help out with dinner dishes and cooking or yard work because men were less vulnerable to paroxysms of guilt if they didn't do it all themselves.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So this research is, I think, key. Key when you are moving into a space where you are going to be single parenting, right? Where you're not gonna have a second person around because you can you can move into that space thinking you still need to do it all.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I s if I was a stay-at-home mom and I drove my kids to school and I packed all their lunches and we did fun things on the weekends, like I still have to be that mom.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And we definitely have seen this for for me, um, of you know, I was a I was a stay-at home mom without a business. Um, and then went after divorce, started my own business. And I've actually only in hindsight, really looking at the last five years, have I realized how much I have been trying to do it all. Um definitely experienced guilt heavily in my mothering role. And so recently Quinn coached me. It was such a phenomenal session where as we're coaching, and I am just, you know, about what a bad mom I am, and how and she was like, wait a second. If you were a dad, how would you be feeling right now about your parenting? And I was like, Oh, I would be crushing it. Yes, yes, like, and I saw for the first time this dichotomy of the standard I hold fathers to versus the standard I hold mothers to, and really pausing to go, is it serving me to continue holding myself to this standard I hadn't like I needed to re-question, right? What do I really need to be doing for my children?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, and what we've seen is it's been phenomenal for me moving into this idea of like, I'm the dad. I'm the dad. Because then when I'm working or I'm doing stuff like the other day, my boys, I have, you know, with the community launching, there's a lot of work that I've been doing. They've been on fall break. So I was working in my office having a grand old time. Like, I love work. It is my creative genius, it is my flavor. And meanwhile, they're all in the living room, happy as larks, playing Minecraft together, right? And that was how we spent the whole day. And at the end of the day, um, we went out to dinner, Joe, me, and the boys, and and Joe kind of leaned over to be like, How are you doing, baby? Because there was some like emotional stuff going on with my 14-year-old and some frustration around some rules that have been set with his phone lately. And I turned to him and said just basically the same thing. I was like, if I was, if I thought of myself as a mom right now, I'd feel pretty shitty, but I'm a dad, and so I'm fucking crushing it. And I I have loved just calling out these double standards for myself, yeah. And getting a little bit more clear on that I think mother's jobs are to like make sure everybody's happy all the time. And when I step into more of like a I'm the dad headspace, I'm not as you know, codependent trying to make sure that everybody's always happy and on the same page. I'm able to be very loving and also very like, I don't know if the words firm. What would you say, Quinn?
SPEAKER_01It's it's just a little there is a little bit of a just more of a reality check, I think. Because if we if we said they were at their dad's house and played Minecraft all day, and then they he took them out to dinner, but he had work to do all day, I don't think anyone would blink at that. But when you say a mother was in her office playing on the computer all day, and her kids were ignored, weren't fed, they weren't snuggled, they you know, whatever. And so she had to bring them out for dinner because she wasn't willing to make them a home cooked meal. I mean, the internalized misogyny of it all. The this is the standard for dads, and you're like, oh, way to go, dad, way to provide, and then you brought them out to dinner, and that's so great. And for the mom, it's like, where's the home cooked meal? They should have three meals a day, and you know, just the stories we tell ourselves. And I used to blame it on Mormonism, but I think it's wider spread than that.
SPEAKER_04I agree.
SPEAKER_01It's a thick flavor in Mormonism, but it's it's throughout our society.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And especially being very aware of this because I do think it gets increased once you get divorced, your unknown operating systems that may be making it even harder on yourself than it has to be.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04By by still holding you to standards, like uh last night, for example, good moment. And I'm I'm having to I'm having to really learn this. We're ordering, and my middle son goes to it thought he was gonna get a burger, and then like mid-order with the waiter, he decides he wants to get a steak and potatoes. We're going from like a you know, $16 burger to like a $45 plate. And I just kind of stopped him to be like, whoa, hold up a second, dude. And my boys, mainly because you know, I have done a lot of just because of the money I came out of my divorce with, and just really kind of tried to keep the same standard. And it's only been in the last year that I've been like, look, I need to be realistic about like what this is. And so I had a beautiful conversation with them last night for me, not for them. They they did not like this conversation where I just brought the like reality, the truth to the forefront of hey, when you're out with me, I am not an investment banker, I am not making 300k plus a year. You know, this is I understand that with your dad, you can order whatever you want and he will buy you whatever you want, but with me, that's not the case. And having to work through my own feelings of like it's okay that I can't give them what their dad can give them financially.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And and learning to be more comfortable communicating that with them because I and I've I've like, as I've stopped and be like, that's what I want them to understand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04There are people out there that do have to actually look at the cost of things on a menu before they order.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and it's such a gift that contrast between dad and mom, between value systems, between, you know, expenditures, whatever. It's that mutual contrast that they get both.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. And seeing that and and not seeing it as, oh, it's somehow worse, that this is right, this is where we start to really move into the more nuanced, like, yes, they may get more things at his house and at my house. There's in some ways, you know, a different style of connection.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to mention this idea because I had one client who very typical mother kind of energy, kind of worrying about her kids, trying to do everything for her kids, all the laundry, all the cooking, all of the transportation, just and working full time. And I shared this idea of, you know, how can we change your standard? Can you can you be the dad? And she's like, well, somebody's got to be the mom. And what she meant by that is if I'm not worried about this, if I'm not busy micromanaging everybody to make sure everybody gets everything that they need all the time, something bad is going to happen. And the truth is, something good is going to happen. If you can stop worrying all the time, if you can teach your children to do their own laundry, if they can help with cooking and gaining skills, something good will happen. So if we can get bring to our consciousness, what do we mean by being a good mother and really looking at it and seeing if that actually serves our children or if it just serves our ego?
SPEAKER_04Yes, because what as she said, the whole if I don't do this, something bad's gonna happen. The thing that hit my brain was like childhood trauma. That is a childhood trauma response of growing up in a place where you did not feel safe. And so your only mechanism to can was to control. If I can just control myself and my environment enough, maybe I can prevent my parents from neglecting me or hurting me or lashing out. So just realize when we want to make it perfect for everybody and keep everybody really happy, that is a like pendulum sweet, it's another form of traumatizing your children. Yeah. Um, and and so really slowing down and owning our own trauma and recognizing when our behaviors with our children are truly like you said, something that's actually good parenting for them, or if it may just be a pattern that we, you know, an adaptive pattern we had in childhood. Yes. Of I've got to manage everybody or something bad's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_04So this also ties into another, you know, section, kind of different angle we wanted to talk about, which I loved with you saying, like we need to decide for ourselves what a good mother is and why that's so important, is because whether you get divorced or not, ultimately you are not in charge of how your children are going to interpret their childhoods.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. They may think it's the best that you got divorced, they may think it's the worst. So you don't get to choose.
SPEAKER_04You don't. You don't get to choose. And if you stay married, they may think that was the best, or they may think that was the worst.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So this goes back to that that so many of us have, right? These patterns of wanting to like control everybody. If I don't worry about them, who will? And thinking that somehow worrying about them is gonna get you the result of them feeling happy about you as a mother or thinking that you did a good job. Mm-hmm. We know this is not the case, though.
SPEAKER_01No, it is not. And I have the experience of having two of my children were out of the home at the time of the divorce. One had passed away, you know, of my nine children, and then I had six at home when when the divorce was happening. And the and my oldest son, so is this a good time to just jump into that?
SPEAKER_04Yes, that would be perfect. Because Quinn has an actual, you know, I think your this is once again the beauty of your story. Such a beautiful contrast of how various, you know, your children have had different experiences with this journey.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I mean, my younger ones have such a different mom. When my older ones get together and talk about, you know, their childhood, every story ends with, and then mom got mad. I'm like, it is such a super name. They do. It's it's just this joke now. Oh, and then mom got mad. But I'm glad it's a joke instead of a reality. But my oldest son, he was 20, 19, going on 20 over the course of the year, where I got divorced. I had left Mormonism. That was very challenging for him at the time. He ended up leaving Mormonism as well. So there was a lot of upheaval. And we stayed in contact for several years, but in in this past year, he has asked for no contact. It's been over a year now, probably a year and a half or two years. And in large part because I stayed married when he was being used for child labor on our farm. Homeschooled, isolated, this very um strict form of Mormonism and worship and way of being and shaming. And when I talk about the physical abuse of my ex, I'm not talking about him like beating the children. It would be like in moments where he would like twist their ear, or sometimes he would be rough with them, or get like scream at them, that kind of thing that was still very, very frightening to the nervous system of a child. And me not intervening, me not insisting that they be put into school, that they not be used for labor, it has cost me my relationship with my oldest son. And I have had to mourn that loss and to really be introspective about what I did, owning my part of that. And maybe at some point he'll be in a place where he wants to reconnect. But I have to accept that that may never happen. And in large part, it's because I stayed married to his father. And I can't help but think if I had left his father, one of the first times that I thought I should leave this man, which was when I was pregnant with this older son, if maybe I would have him in my life. And it's it's just a price to be paid. Like, you know, and I support my son in his healing journey. If he doesn't feel safe around me, I don't want him to try to be around me in order to make me feel better. And it and it's something that I get to live with. So staying married and thinking, oh, I'm preventing suffering by staying married. Oh my God, it is such a lie. I it blinded me to the suffering of my children at the time. Just a couple days ago, I was sitting with one of my daughters and she's writing an essay for a scholarship, and she was talking about this time where we were in my sister's basement. We had a stack of seven mattresses that we would pull out and put across the living room floor because that's where we would sleep together every night. And she referred to it as the time of us being homeless. And I didn't define it that way in my mind, but I can see how she would define it that way. And me just aching and apologizing and crying in that moment as I read her essay. And then telling her, you're welcome for all of these topics you get to write, um, essays for scholarships. I hope you win this scholarship. But there was so much that happened that I didn't see or I was unwilling to see because the marriage, keeping the marriage together was so important. It was more important than my children, it was more important than me, like the marriage. But it was so rotten. It was so, so rotten that it really didn't take much to destroy it once I started being honest.
SPEAKER_04Ooh, Quinn. Thank you so much for letting us dive really deep into once again, just some of the potential realities that are a part of getting divorced. There are costs. Um and I know you have seen, right? I feel like you got out when you did, and that has dramatically changed the lives of all of your younger children. Like you said, they are growing up in a completely different house. Yes. And, you know, there were older kids that didn't get to have that experience. Um, and I really loved in in our outlining session when we were discussing this um episode, you said a line that I just thought was so powerful, especially coming from you. And you you just said if you enable abuse, your child has every right to cut you off.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And that is a hard one statement. Like, as someone who understands, like, just to share with y'all on the podcast, this is not something that Quinn just like automatically showed up when this first, you know, began with her her son of him being like, I don't want any contact, and her just being like, Yeah, he gets to have that. Like, there was so much processing and grieving and coaching that you did to I I loved that moment where you were like, I want to support him and him having what he needs to heal. And that right now, and perhaps the rest of his life is space from you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And doing the deeper personal work to be able to move into a space where, like you said, you don't need him to stay in contact with you just to make you not feel bad about the choices you made that led to this. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And there are times where I will argue with him in my head, like, you don't know me. You know, come know, come get to know me now. And his birthday's coming up. And I don't know him. And that that is really sad to me. But at the same time, I had years with him, and I'm so grateful for those years with him. I adore this boy. He's so funny, so smart. But looking back at the contrast when I was first coaching with you and saying, I can't leave because of my children, and then being here now and feeling so sad for these kids who didn't get to experience their mother as a divorced woman. Yeah. I mean, I thought I was doing the best thing for them. And the best thing that I believe now is that I got divorced. I have this beautiful home. And I'm not talking physically beautiful. I'm talking this home that is just energetic. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01The space. My kids don't have their own rooms. They don't each have their own cars. Not that they would have had those if I had stayed married, but it's not about the stuff. It's about do my children feel safe and loved in this home? They absolutely do. They can tell me anything. Yes. They can say all the words. We can, we can have deep discussions. They're free to be angry, upset. People don't have to be always happy. It's it's a beautiful, beautiful home. And I am sorry I did not give that to my older children. And I don't think it would have been possible to give it to them being married to their dad.
SPEAKER_04No, and as we've as we've said on the podcast before, this is just the timing of one's journey. This is trusting that your oldest son also like this is his journey. And although we may feel like something went wrong, that he didn't have a different childhood. I think of your own origin story, you know, as your daughter in her her essay is talking about these rough things she went through. Um it's holding both, right? It's holding the compassion that we have for what she went through and also understanding it made her who she is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I have no idea what my son's journey needs to be, but it gets to be his. As with all of my children. Now, I'm saying I have this beautiful home. Maybe one of my kids in my home right now will grow up and say, You should have stayed married to our dad. That was the worst thing. I hated your home. And they get to say that, they get to believe that. It's not up to me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and this is gonna tie in. So, you know, in in I'm thinking as you were talking about that, like my children's experiences and what they would be thinking. And we don't have, you know, as extreme, right, of the abuse that was happening, but I do strongly, strongly, like I know for certain that in my marriage, we had codependent, narcissistic ways of relating. And definitely in marriage, we um that they were picking up on, that they were seeing, that they were getting as a blueprint of what it's gonna be like going, you know, what marriage is. So I wanna tie in. We had talked about this piece of realizing a lot of bad results for kids get pinned on divorce when as you are gonna share in one of the quotes, right? That actually a lot of the fucked up things that cut that we say come from a divorce were actually already there in the marriage.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So tell me more. Okay, so it's in the same book, for better or for worse, divorce reconsidered. And at the very end, they give lessons that surprise them over the course of this 20-year study. And this was lesson five. The past is present. Many of the difficulties that are blamed on divorce, such as depression, antisocial behavior, poor interpersonal relationships, and lack of problem-solving skills in parents, inept parenting, and emotional and behavior problems in children, are often present in dysfunctional families long before the divorce occurs.
SPEAKER_04Like, what? How did we not all see this earlier? Right? This is so obvious. Once you say it, it's like duh. Of course, there are issues that are already present. That it is not, you know, oh, the divorce caused necessarily. We can't pin all of it on divorce. That's the point. And boy, have I seen that, especially in my um, I would say in my parenting recently, you've watched me go through, we've gone through some tough things recently with my 14-year-old um testing boundaries. And I remember on one of the worst nights of it, just really feeling super discouraged, and definitely watching my brain go back to like, oh my God, if I wouldn't have gotten divorced, maybe he wouldn't be doing this. And having Joe so beautifully be like, no, baby, this this is you can't you can't equate that, like, oh, this wouldn't have happened if I would have stayed married. And realizing in that moment when I did, I think you coached me the next day, and us seeing how we we as mothers, we are just so our brains are so tricky about thinking, I do this, my kid does this, I do this, my kid does this. Like it's a direct correlation. I think it's way less correlated than we think it is, and so, or caused, right? Causation rather than correlation.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04I do this, it causes my kid to do this. And the next day we're talking, and you I think made the point where you were like, Yeah, let's say this was always gonna happen. And in that moment, I was like, Oh my god, I'm so grateful I am not married. Right. Because yes, we got to go through this shitstorm with my 14-year-old. And instead of climbing in bed that night with, you know, if I'd been married, my ex-husband, who we did not communicate well, I did not feel emotionally seen and understood, I found myself climbing in bed with Joe, who, you know, cuddled me right in. I balled into his chest, he didn't try to fix me. And then when we, you know, and we had this just beautiful process of him supporting me, and he has throughout the whole thing in these ways that instead of tearing down me or questioning my parenting, or there was a lot of that in my previous marriage. I just felt so stressed around my parenting because we just were not on the same page with that, and it it was to go through that and be able to have a partner that I trusted and could be supported by. I was like, oh, if it's gonna be this way either way, I will choose at least here. I get to be supported and have a partner who can be there for me in the ways I need.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I agree, I agree.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so it's just I think it's a lot of realizing it can be a shit show growing up.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's just a human thing. It's not necessarily my parents were divorced or my parents stayed married growing up. It's tough being a human, it just is.
SPEAKER_04Yes, and acknowledging that there's trauma way before, you know what I mean? Like this is me acknowledging, oh yeah, Cal is getting raised by a mama who has CPTSD, yeah, father who molested her, mother who was narcissistic, raised in a cult. Like we're dealing with a lot here that's just because I'm his mom and all the stuff he has on his dad's side. So whether we got divorced or not, there's already a large amount of pieces and variables.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. And actually for myself, I'm like, oh, the divorce has just made that better. In my in my take, it has definitely helped me to be a better parent. I can't even imagine where what kind of a parent I'd be right now if I was still married. Because as you, as you know, where I was at five years ago, yeah. I was just a shell. I can't imagine going through what I went through with my 14-year-old this summer, the shell that I was five years ago. Uh, it would have annihilated me. It it was very tough for who I am even now. And I have built a huge reservoir.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. So when we talk about building that reservoir, I think that sometimes we as mothers assume that if we take time for ourselves, if we do something that is really necessary for our own health and safety, like getting divorced, that it necessarily means our children suffer. It necessarily means these certain things like we've talked about. But what I have found time and time again is that the more I show up for myself, the better I take care of myself, the more I just give myself the space to say, okay, kids, you're on the screens. Mama's gonna take care of herself in all the beautiful ways, physically, spiritually, emotionally, socially, as I fill up my reservoir. And I like the idea of a reservoir rather than fill your own cup. I love the image of like something deep that is being fed. And so I have this reservoir that my children can dip into. Now, not all the time. There are times I get to the end of my day and I'm like, I don't have enough for you to come snuggle with me. Like, go to bed.
SPEAKER_04Which is going back to that, like allowing yourself to be a dad and trusting that just because you're not always a yes doesn't mean they are not still loved.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I love you and go to bed. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01And there are a lot of times I go to bed, my kids are still up. I'm like, don't stay up too late, and I go to bed because I know if I take care of me, that's the best thing I can do for my kids. Yes. In all the ways. I can't think of a single way that showing up for me does not make me better for my kids.
SPEAKER_04This is such a radical, radical thing to say that I like, and I feel it in every fiber of my being as well. And I'm at hearing you say it, I'm like, oh my God. We have done the work to change that belief from where it was and the culture we were raised in, which was so much martyrdom. Women, you know, were put on pedestals. I remember listening to Mother's Day. I couldn't handle towards the end Mother's Day. Oh my God, talks where people would just venerate these women who did nothing. She does nothing for herself. She takes care of everybody else. She's so giving. And me just being like, I am sick and tired of men standing up talking about how grateful they are that this woman has completely annihilated any vestige of herself so that everybody else can have things be easier. And I love that you and I can so powerfully say from like hard-earned trial and you know, learning, no, it is a huge lie that the less of you there is because you've poured into everybody else, the better everybody will be. The more of me there has been both you and I have seen, the more, the more our children, it's like they energetically see, like, my mom gets to be a human. I get to be a human too.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. It is such a gift to our children. And you have these three boys, and they're going to see women as humans instead of.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, we're gonna see them as spicy, like whoop. Yes, like Joe. It was so funny. Yes, the other day they were we were leaving like a football game of Cal's, and Cal said something like, Joe, Joe, this is the one you picked. Because I was being like spicy with him or something, and I loved it. I loved it because I love that they are seeing someone who they really admire. I like they love Joe, they see how calm and that he just adores and loves this spicy, wild little spitfire of a human. I want that for them versus what I was raised with of like women who sit in the background and you know, what can I do for you? Lately, my littlest has been like, Can you get me a glass of water? I'm like, no, you you can do that yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_04Bringing on the strong dad vibes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Get your own water.
SPEAKER_04You're eight now. I think you can do it.
SPEAKER_01You can do it. You can do it.
SPEAKER_04You can do it.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god. So I want to finish out one of the things I wanted we talked about, ending this episode with. It's been so beautiful with you, Quinn. I knew it was gonna be God. I just love our conversations. Is you know, at the beginning of this episode, we talked about um the disadvantages that a lot of you may be worried about. But one of the things we mentioned is just how much like nobody talks about the benefits of divorce for your kids.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_04That that is not a phrase or a word that gets thrown around. Like it feels like this little tiny manuscript, like tucked away in a old library that like nobody gets to look at.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you don't see the headlines from page news 10 reasons why you should get divorced today. You know, but no, you know, if there's an uptick in divorce rates, it's like divorce is on the rise, men are lonely, you know, that kind of thing. But with social media, women are talking about this, and it's so important to talk about it.
SPEAKER_04Yes. So we wanted to just close the episode out by sharing a few of the benefits that we have seen now, you know, having gone through divorce, getting to actually see boots on the ground, what it's been like for our kids. Um, I'll just start us off. One of the things we've noticed is having this contrast of two different homes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And contrary to everybody's fears. Of, like, oh, that's going to be so difficult. Both of us have seen the benefit in getting to see their. And I'd say this is probably more for you. For for me, I've loved, we talked about this as like energetic difference in the different homes, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But I loved what you said specifically of, especially in your children's instance where they were coming from a marriage where you were complicit by staying with him in normalizing the abuse without you even realizing it. In you guys being separated, they've now been able to see their dad in a more clear-eyed way.
SPEAKER_01Yes, because I'm not there to filter everything. It used to be my children would come to me about something about their dad. I would go to their dad, try to explain it to him. I was like this translator, explain it to him in a way he could understand and like try to mediate some kind of connection. And I did that so much, especially with my older friend. And so to now be like, I am out of the way. That gets to be your dad. And I I love that because it shows them the different ways of being in the world and not to make their dad always wrong or me always right. They'll come to me and say, Dad said this, or dad's gonna vote for this person, dad's, and I just get to say, yeah, that's your dad, just from a very neutral place, that this is just what is. And they're gonna come across people all the time where they're seeing that contrast is normal between choices.
SPEAKER_04That they get to have opinions. Yes. You don't have to like everybody, you don't have to love everybody, you don't even have to love someone who is your parent, right? And that is you guys, you don't understand how important that is if you are in an abusive relationship with your parent.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04Because what gets so fucked up in traumatic childhoods is you are being abused and you are having normal feelings of like, this is wrong, this isn't fair, why do they get to do this to me? And it gets squashed and shoved down by either the parent doing it to you or the parent who's complicit in it with like, well, we're the adults, or or projecting it back on you as like you're the problem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So when you have that contrast, and I think it's it's often so much of it, I would say the majority is even just done on like an energetic, unconscious level for your children of just like, here's how it feels here, here's how it feels here, this is how this parent communicates with me, this is how this one does. Yeah. Um I just can't even on how important that is for their sense of self learning. Like, I don't have to allow people to I I can know that people are abusing me and I can choose to understand that. And then just it's I would say in your instance, the power of having a parent who can actually advocate and protect you.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04Right. With my kids, I would say it's a little more nuanced. It's not as clear, right? I I think my kids go back and forth on different moments of being like, man, mom's the best. And also like, or moments when they're like, I can't wait to go to dad's house. That is like my 14-year-old's like favorite thing to say right now. Whenever he gets mad, it's like, I can't wait to go to dad's house. And just letting that be his experience and being like, Yeah, I get it. That's okay. You want to go to your dad's house right now. I mean, of course he does. Yeah. In the moment that mom's saying, yeah, in the moment that mom's saying no, of course he wants to go somewhere else. But that's just like part of I see it now as instead of this, like, oh, it's so bad that they have these two different things and it's not all cohesive. I'm like, no, in instances where you have trauma or abusive things happening just from the genetic shit that's been sliding down the mountain for so long, we actually do want this contrast. Yes.
SPEAKER_01And I love that they love both homes. Like, there's neither one of the homes between you, your husband, and your in-laws that they're like, I don't feel safe in this place. Your kids three places that they can go and they will be safe. Such a gift.
SPEAKER_04It's not and three one, three places with like very different views and ideas about the world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes, that too.
SPEAKER_04Which is beautiful because they're um, you know, as I explained to them, like what's your opinion? You get to have an opinion, you get to decide what you want to think about all the different things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So that is one of the really beautiful things with the contrast. Um, another thing we had talked about was oof, and this is just tying into that, right? You said a safe space now where they can be unapologetically themselves, yeah, and there's room for their shadows.
SPEAKER_01Yes. My kids get to be upset, they get to be sad. There's nothing that they can say that's going to cost them their relationship with me. They can wear what they want to wear. I may have an opinion. Yes. But it's not gonna be shamey. It's more like, well, we're shaving our arms now, are we? Like, okay, tell me about this. It's something that I guess girls in sixth grade in Tucson are doing. And but it is safe for them. Yeah, but they know explore, yes, but in their dad's house, they they need to show up a certain way and they need to dress a certain way. They have to pack certain things in order to be to feel safe there. And again, I mean, it sounds like that's bad, but I mean, throughout their life, they're going to have to adjust to when I go to these places, this is the way the social norms are. And when we're here, this is the way the social norms are. And so I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing, though, God, I I'm glad that they, I'm glad they're home with me most of the time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I see it as I see the the the benefit there is that instead of if you'd stayed married, them being where they have to dress a certain way, they have to talk a certain way, they have to love a certain gender, you know, all of those roles and that being their only world, right? This is the one way the world is. They now have a second data point, and it's like, oh, well, my mom thinks this about these ideas, and she says it's fine to wear tank tops, and right each of those little things just evolves that brain differently.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Because now instead of one authority that is the only authority in your life, you're seeing two different authorities, and you're you're having to learn and feel where where do I feel better? What fits me? Yeah, it's it's one of the things I I love the most that I don't think many people talk about. One of the things we mentioned was the one secure adult theory that I'm always bringing up, and that you in you getting out of the marriage and both of us getting out of the marriage, we were able to become more secure in ourselves, and that leads to stronger individual parent-child bonds.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I think for sure, I mean, other than the one child who wants no contact. And because I made peace with that, I've been able to tell my other adult children like if there's a time where you feel like you want no contact from me, I will respect that if that's part of your path. But I'm at a place where we can talk about that. Like, and they come to me. My children will come to me for um support, for advice, and I'm able to tell them I don't know, I have no idea.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, versus when they came to you support and advice when you were married, it was very show.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It was like you need to pray about it, you need to get a blessing from your dad. You need to, if if you don't want to talk to your dad, then you need to go to this other man or to this other man or to this other man, like not yourself, don't trust yourself, but you need to outsource that to one of these religious figures. And now I can say, you can trust yourself.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, which all that was doing, just so you all realize, all that was doing was training your children to not to ultimately put their trust in external authorities. And when you make a decision to like for us to get divorced, to believe in ourselves, like I'm gonna trust myself first, yeah, that is the new blueprint that my children see in me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That they are getting to every day see evolving and unfolding. Oh, this is what a life lit lived by someone who's gonna trust themselves first looks like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So, so yummy. We we talked about that ultimately there's these changes in malleability, which would be getting more exposure to diverse family structures and even potentially, you know, learning to have new relationships with someone like a stepdad or step siblings.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. So my children, the it's challenging with their stepmom. She has brain damage. She had a fall that put her in a coma for 18 months in her early adulthood. So we know that she has some challenges, um, especially with her anger. And so they've learned how to live around that. But she also has three lovely children. And the children, my children, her children, they love each other. And it has expanded them, given them more love. And I know that's not true for everyone. I feel like we lucked out, but um, it has been, and and my well, and their stepmother's extended family has been great to my kids as well. And so there is that additional expansiveness that can be available and in my case is available.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And in in my instance, right, it's not so much having other children around in a stepchildren kind of situation, but getting to see, getting to have the connections and the the conversations with my partner Joe.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04And this completely different example of what it means to be a man, a man who's way more balanced in his feminine and his masculine, who, in the words of Bo, is just, you know, when we broke up, he was like, he was so nice and kind and calm.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay. So I gotta say, your listeners may not know that you broke up. So they're back together again.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so you in my so all of you, I dropped an episode on Friday where I did Okay, yes, I ran through the whole. I'm so like, I'm so excited. I didn't tell you that I dropped because I always drop on Tuesdays. Yeah. So you will not know, Quinn. There is a secret episode that dropped on Friday because I wanted it to be before this one, detailing extensively what that was like. Yes. Okay, okay, and how shocking it was going through that to see how much my boys, how much they already love having him around. Yeah, how he is just this grounding, stabilizing presence in our family, and they are getting to see a romantic relationship unlike anything they've seen before. Like last night, it was so cute. We got home after being all out to dinner. Joe and I are in my bedroom, the kids are like making crepes or something, and they were calling me from the kitchen, and I was kissing Joe in my bedroom, and I was like, coming, you know, and I kiss him a little bit more, and we're making plans for later tonight. I'm like, I want you. And so I come out into the living room, and as I'm walking in, Bo's like, I could hear you kissing. I know you guys were kissing in there. And I'm like, Yeah, that's what you do when you love someone. Like, yeah, they're just seeing a whole different level of physical connection, emotional connection, intimacy, like genuine partnership, yes, um, and getting to interact with a male figure, you know, in different ways than they would with their dad or their grandfather, right? It's just another person that gets to love them and be a part of their constellation of adults that are here to support them.
SPEAKER_01Yes. But if we back up a few months when you were thinking you wanted him around your kid, it was it was kind of like this whole conversation, but in that microcosm of how is this gonna affect my kids? I'm worried about that. Are they gonna feel abandoned? What is this gonna be like? And it has been better than you could have imagined.
SPEAKER_04But we didn't know that until you tried. No, no, and you did such a beautiful job in coaching me, being like, we can try this, we can see how it goes, we can check in. And yeah, so incredible to see how having somebody, you know, Joe lives with us now. Um how it's just I never dreamed, right, Quinn. You know, we're we'll have to do an episode about this in the future where we talk about just these shifts I've had around commitment and actually having somebody in your life that's supportive and adds to it. And a big key of that is that Joe does not try to parent my voice. He has full and utter respect for what all of us have been doing for five years now, four years before he showed up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And he did not have an ego that needed to be assuaged by coming in and being the big man. He's very, very um just super respectful of everybody's dynamics in the family and has such a gentle, like, kind of just like happy to be here kind of feeling, and also don't need to be in the limelight, which is great because as we all know, I love the limelight. So yeah, that's okay. I got it, Joe. I got it. Put the spotlight right on me.
SPEAKER_02I love that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so so these were just a few of the benefits um that we had talked about. We also mentioned independence and adaptability, right? They learn to be self-reliant in ways that they weren't previously and even different than being parentified.
SPEAKER_01You know, we're not making them the parent, they don't have to raise themselves or siblings, and us. But like telling your eight-year-old, I'm gonna let you get your own water, or I'm gonna go out tonight, you guys do your own thing. Like there's some beautiful ways of letting them explore and be more independent. And um having opinions, I think, is a really beautiful way to for them to exhibit that independence.
SPEAKER_04Yes, for sure. My boys, I mean, they do dishes, they do all their own laundry. Those are things I think if I'd stayed married, I just wouldn't have even questioned.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But I'm like, I got things to do, I got a business to run. I'm a dad. So on that note, Quinn. Oh my goodness. Thank you for another beautiful episode.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, brother.
SPEAKER_04Um, I just have to say, Quinn has been dropping some really amazing episodes. She's been kind of talking to me about them through our messaging back and forth on Boxer. What were what was one of the ones you just dropped? Oh, we just talked about marital rape. Exactly. That was I was hoping this one had dropped because you are just talking on these really deep, gorgeous, like hard-hitting topics that one of the things I love most about Quinn is just you have a total your brain works very differently, and the way you podcast is just thank you. I just feel like, yeah, there's so many really deep, beautiful points when you drop your episodes. So I wanted to encourage everybody because I'm like, it's such a gift to have both of these resources.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I agree. I can't count the number of times that I've said, hey, go listen to Brita talk about CPTSD. Like all of these things, they they serve us on each side. They serve us whether we stay married or not, or go on to other relationships. Yes. We've been talking about things for years between us that we're trying to pour out into the greater consciousness to help all of us thrive, no matter what choices we make.
SPEAKER_04Yes, I love that. And this marital rape one is especially important for those. You know, that's something when she told me she was gonna drop it, I was like, oh my God, I have to make sure my women know because that is stuff I want them to be listening to and understanding. It's really important. And I guess my final piece is just to say so super exciting. Um Tuesday uh with this smaller group of women, these kind of founding members that have compiled. We're gonna be opening up the community and for the next two weeks. I'm gonna be testing it out with them. And Quinn is one of those founding members. I'm inspired. I am too. I just this weekend was like, it's been a lot. I've felt like my own childhood fears of like running a group, or I, you know, you know, through my coaching, I've only done one-on-one. And the podcast may feel like I'm used to, but this still feels very intimate, you know.
SPEAKER_01It does, it does, which is so beautiful because you you like you said, you haven't done this before. It's either been high-end one-on-one coaching and more intensive, or podcast, which may feel too generalized for some for the help that some women need, but a community where they get access to your glitter and your magic and your wisdom, as well as the wisdom of the curated information, the curated members, for a fraction of the price of what it would take to get access to you one-on-one. I I really hope that women will just come in and bask in this healing place that you've created. I'm very excited for it. I'm so proud of you.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. I am too. And I think what I'm most excited about this weekend was as I was getting these emails back in from the women that are gonna be in this trial run, was what you said of like the curated membership. Because I was having this moment, instead of feeling the fear of like, oh, I'm gonna be facilitating. I stopped and I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna be in a room filled with like, you know, some of my dearest friends, some of my oldest, dearest friends, like you, um, previous clients that I've had. I would have a few women that have actually already gone through the process, but still want to be here to like help and contribute their wisdom to the community. And then these women that I've met on 90-minute intensives that I've fallen in love with, and I'm like, oh my God, they're all about to like hang out with each other. Like, hold on to your horses. We may open a portal to another reality because that's gonna be a fuck ton of really powerful witchy magic all in this space. So yeah, so excited to do that. So grateful you're gonna be in there with me. And um, you know, through those two weeks, of course. That'll be leading towards us eventually opening up the community to the greater group to all of you on the podcast that maybe haven't met me individually. Um, that'll be where you get to kind of drop in and start doing this deeper work in a community setting, which will be just utter magic. I can't even I've seen the power of coaching one-on-one, but what I keep seeing and learning more about is that community is like five times that.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I think as I think about both of our past selves and what we could have used in making that decision to stay or go, to have a place where we are heard, we are held, and we are validated. And we're not pushed either way. That just being there in this place where the acknowledgement of the wrestling that's going on within our souls is acknowledged, and then the tools to get clear, to make some clear-headed decisions, next steps, yes to explore tiny next steps or going, like either way, having a community and having that love there. Oh that would have been such a soft place to land. And now you're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_04And to carry and to carry with you, right? That's the other thing I love is I don't want these relationships to just be, you know, during this period. I see these as being long term. You know, one of my clients who's actually gonna be in there, we're gonna be recording an episode that's gonna end up just being in the community. It's gonna be like a deep dive into her journey. I coached with her a while ago, probably around three years ago. One of the things she said that was the hardest is after we finished coaching together, she's like, I, you know, when coaching ended, I I missed you so much. Yeah. And I didn't have a support system and it made it really hard. It still took her a couple years after that to leave. And I said, What did you need most? And she's like, I needed other women around me telling me, I get you, I see you. And even now, she's like, even now, my friends still don't get it, you know, they're all married.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And so to have women the rest of your life to have a space with women who are like, Oh, I get it. Like, yeah, who are like, oh, you got divorced. That's so sad, right? That are just like, girl, tell me all about it, whichever way you are. Like, I'm here for it.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Congratulations, and I'm so sorry. Which one?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, which one? You tell me which one, and I got y'all back.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So it'll be a lot of a lot of beautiful magic. So, all of you listening, send us your beautiful vibes these two weeks while we're working out some of the kinks. We've already worked out a few kinks. Sent out an email with a I know that wouldn't reply. So people are having to find me through other ways. I was like, this is why I do small group launches. Yes, yes. Yes, to just work out a lot of those things ahead of time. And then once we're ready, we'll bring it to the greater community. So thank you for your time, Quinn.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you, brother.
SPEAKER_04This was a yummy, delicious long episode, y'all.
SPEAKER_01This was.
SPEAKER_04Holy shit. It's like we haven't recorded in a long time and we just needed some time together.
SPEAKER_01Ugh, yes, we did. Thank you. Love you, my dear. And love you too. Bye-bye.