Welcome to the Stay or Go podcast, where we're changing the dialogue around divorce so that no woman ever stays in her marriage out of fear. Get ready to dispel myths, learn life-changing tools, and build a solid foundation in yourself from which to make your decision. And now your host, me, Britta Jo.
SPEAKER_00Thrilled to be introducing you to a friend, a peer, my former coach, a woman that I adore, and my client Britta Joe. Britta Joe, for those of you that are not familiar with her, prepare for the fangirl energy because I adore, I adore this woman. She helped me through my divorce, helped me stay in my marriage from a place of strength and real autonomy. She also supported me in my extraction from that marriage. I asked her to have a conversation with me about dating. She has a lot of experience in this area from a very different perspective than I do. I'm going to be leading this discussion, but I'll be jumping in with my perspective. I'm from a slightly different demographic, different experience, but I think between the two of us, this is going to be one for the ages. So, Britta Joe, I want you to start by telling giving us a little bit of background just to set the stage of how long you've been divorced, your age, if you feel okay sharing that, children. Like what was your situation coming out of your divorce before you started to date?
SPEAKER_04I'm so excited to do this episode with you. So I had been married for 12 years. I'd been married very young at 19. So I had not had a lot of dating experience prior to that. A few boyfriends, maybe three, four in high school. Um and when I got divorced, I was 31 at the time, and I had three children. Um and I would say like my mentality going into it was a I and you'll maybe remember this better than me because you know you were outside of the pool watching me when I started dating. But I would say there was a lot of excitement mixed with a lot of nervous kind of um hope this goes well kind of energy, like very excited and also very nervous.
SPEAKER_00Right. And the and you've learned a lot, like at the time, we did not know that you had a very anxious attachment style. We did not know that you would have flashbacks from um sexual abuse, narcissistic abuse, like this was all under the surface. On the surface was this excitement, let's go out there, this is exciting. But there was a well in there that would we would draw from to create some of that experience for you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and looking back, I mean, especially I would say, you know, us learning about the CBTSD and the emotional flashbacks aspect of how that works in dating and in partnership has only been in the last six months. And looking back now though, right, Quinn, we're like, oh, this was happening. That's why. That's what that was, because that was everywhere throughout the dating. I mean, I can definitely think back to various partners and various incidents where it's like that was an emotional flashback. I was totally in a like childlike, dysregulated state. Um, especially you remember that guy I dated who was Australian, and I had so into this Australian, and we I get to meet his friends for the first time, and my brain it felt like he was hitting on his roommate's girlfriend.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_04Do you remember this? And I like end up bringing it up to him later that night from a totally flashbacked, dysregulated state, and it was a shit show.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes, it was.
SPEAKER_04But looking back, I think even though we didn't have the I didn't have the tools to know what was happening to me. What helped all along the way was having you as my coach just constantly bringing me back to myself, right? Like it's okay that he doesn't understand why this felt scary to you, and it's okay that his interpretation of this is very different. And ultimately, you know, when that relationship ended because of that conversation, yes, helping me process that doesn't mean I did anything wrong or I'm a bad person, and just really bringing me back to myself over and over. So no understanding of CBTSD for the really the four and a half years that I well, I've been divorced, so it'll be five years in September now. And I really didn't start dating. I mean, I'd been separated, so been separated from my husband for about I would say nine months until the divorce was finalized. And then once the divorce was finalized in September, I really didn't start dating until May of the next year. So a significant amount of time like coming off of all of that. I don't I don't like that word actually, but an amount of time. And I think the other aspect that I did want to talk about was like the other piece that was really big was this anxious attachment, right? Like not knowing in the beginning that's what we were dealing with. And we found out about attached and attachment styles probably maybe a year or two years after I'd started dating.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And that was life-changing.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, to give a name to the behaviors, give give us a lens in which your actions were not crazy, they were exactly textbook what someone with an anxious attachment style does.
SPEAKER_04And I think it was able to drain off a lot of the shame that you had about obsessing if they're texting if they're gonna call me or yeah, yes, noticing how many hours between each text, noticing when that would taper off. You watched it was like like you said, you could open up the book, look at those protest behaviors, look at those anxious attachment mechanisms, and there I was, which makes me want to like now jump into you and kind of talk a little bit. I would love to hear your demographics and where you were at coming out of your different for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I was married almost 23 years, nine children. I'm now I was 49 when I got divorced. It's just been a little over three years. Six of my children were still at home, and my youngest was six. My husband and I shared custody. The kids would be with me during the week and with him on the weekends, and then half of summer, every other holiday, that type of thing. But I did have time to be with myself and by myself. And one of the things that really impacted me going forward with dating was my attachment style, which is an avoidant, which is when someone gets close, someone falls in love with you, someone wants to connect with you, you feel this incredible urge to run away.
SPEAKER_04Which I'm like having laughing is because I remember because we were goaching each other through this. And you remember I was like very like, why is this a problem? Like lean in, fall in love, not understanding your like deep aversion. Yes, to you know, and I I feel like we didn't understand that you were an avoidant till later on, because we didn't start dating at the same time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you were you were at least a year ahead of me, I want to say. I think so too. And so I got to watch your journey while mine began to unfold a little bit later. And I had only been separated from my husband about four or five months, and then it was about five or six months after that that I chose to start dating. And we'll we'll kind of delve into you know what happened there. But first I want to just kind of circle back to what did you believe about certain things at the time before you had started dating, just as you were looking out at the adventure of dating. I'm going to give you a topic and you tell me what you thought about it. So tell me.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, tell me about what you thought about men, because for this discussion at that time, you identified as a heterosexual, cisgender woman. So you were out there to date all the men. What did what were your thoughts about men like?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so looking back, I do feel I just had this very wide open, naive kind of uh view of men. I mean, I'd only dated in high school, I'd gotten married at 19 to a partner that, you know, although I think we were talking about this the other day, my ex-husband is not like mean at heart. Like he's just kind of also very naive as well. So I would say my understanding of men was pretty young and very, very trusting, very like, yeah, people are good and this is gonna be great. And and as as I was, you know, taking time to think about this episode, I did think like I'm very grateful in hindsight. Like if I were, you know, and of course this episode is for women who are maybe you know considering divorce or just starting divorce, looking back, um I I'm grateful that I had the naivety a little bit because it allowed me to be open. Yeah, but I also did get very lucky. I look back at certain experiences and I'm like, ooh, I I just wish I would have had a little bit more of a like almost like a strong, confident older sister presence of like you get to decide what you want to do here. And ultimately you're the boss. And um, and here are some of the things to be aware of and to be extra safe about, right? I think I did a pretty good job of like I'd message you if I was going somewhere with somebody, like here's the location, or almost always I friends knew if I was going on a date with someone new or where I was gonna be. Um, but definitely wish I'd had like more education around STDs and especially coming from a like Mormon background with no real education around how do I give consent, how do I not give consent?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04How if things start to go south, how do I navigate my way out of that? I got lucky, I never had to, I never actually had to do that with anybody that I went on dates with. Um, but I have lots, I have since talked to lots of friends, I know lots of women where like that is something to be very aware of going into dating. And educating yourself helps you to feel confident that you can navigate that when it comes rather than just mine was kind of like a Hail Mary, like, here we go. Yes, very much cannonball into the deep end. Woohoo! Yes, yes. So that was that was my my beliefs around men. Um are you wanting to flip back and do yours? Like sure. I kind of love that. Let's do it like that.
SPEAKER_00My beliefs about men um were that men are dangerous. I had very much a very simplistic man-bad story in my head. I believed that they were not trustworthy, that men would protect other men, and they would not be there for me. And I also have the Mormon background, and a lot of my experiences of the man-bad story were from going for help to everyone from my father to clergy, um, my husband, trying to get help for my husband and our relationship, and time after time, men protecting men. And so at the time of my divorce, I had no intention of being in another relationship, which I wasn't sure how that was gonna work because I really like sex, but I had I had visited lesbian TikTok and they were selling me hard. So I'm like with teams, but I do I do remember that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, and this is also reminding me, you talking about that. I mean, it's bringing up so many, you know, I know so many of your own personal experiences that led to those beliefs, right? Those those interactions in your marriage and and with various men in your life, and it's reminding me that I have to say here the reason why I was so naive at this time, this is when I got divorced and started dating, this was two years before everything happened with my family, where the stuff came out about my dad, I ended up having my own repressed memory come up. So, in a lot of ways, I was in still kind of a sheltered childlike frame of mind, unaware of how much abuse I had had in my own life, not even you know, connected into memories that I had of my own. So I would say I'm in a a more nuanced adult space now around not so much men as a whole, but just like humans that not all humans are trustworthy, not all humans really, you know, they have your best interests at heart. And so that's why it's so important for me to have my own back and be there for me, which I didn't I don't think was as strong of a piece of my dating as it is now.
SPEAKER_00Right. And for those listeners that aren't aware of Britta's backstory, it's been two, three years now that some repressed memories came to the surface after her father was um arrested for sexually abusing her younger sister. And she testified at his sentencing. He is now in prison. Um but it took a lot of therapy and brain spotting, just a lot of healing that you've gone through to uh kind of process that and integrate that part of you instead of abandoning that child that got left behind all those years ago as a five-year-old girl. So that's part of the story as well. So now we both have children. You have three boys. So when you were looking at dating, what did you how did you think that was gonna work with your kids?
SPEAKER_04So my approach was very logical in my head, which was similar to you custody-wise, although now I tend, you know, our custody, I have my kids less than you do. So I was very, I can just keep these two worlds completely separate. Um, I was not interested in getting remarried. I was not looking for someone to come in and help me parent my children. I really viewed dating from the lens of I want to be self-sufficient, independent, totally in love with my life on my own. And a partner or dating is something that I'm gonna do on the weekends or the days that I don't have my boys. And my I'm not planning on my boys meeting these people. I'm not planning on um integrating them. I'm nobody's moving in with me ever. And you've watched, yeah, you've watched me go through like multiple just different iterations of this, right? Like it it's ebbed and flowed for me around like in the beginning being willing to date guys who wanted to have children, even though I knew for myself, I would did not, and you would see me kind of like vacillate on that. Like sometimes I'd be like, well, maybe if they've never had any kids, or um so I think as far as it involved my children, I saw them as two very separate worlds and never would the two meet.
SPEAKER_00Yes, pretty much. Yes, and by the time I decided I wanted to date, I was very much in that same space that I would have my life as a mother and my life as a lover, and never the twain shall meet. And I did my children have met men that I have dated. If those men are in the friend zone, and if they have a job for one of my kids, or you know, something to offer for my children, like one of the men who is still my friend. He has a child the same age as um one of my children, and we like to go hiking together. But in the beginning, I thought, no, like there is the world of mom and there's the world of lover, and that it would just get too messy. And part of that was informed by my husband getting married very quickly, six weeks after our divorce to a woman that he had met three days prior. I mean, and it was so traumatic for my children. I thought I will never introduce someone to my children. That that is currently not the case, like they know the man that I'm with right now. But at the time, it was no, it would be too destructive to the kids, and that is the most important thing. My children and my children not suffering is the most important thing. It is no longer the most important thing. It is a thing, but not the most important thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I look back and I I do think I see in both of us how much that it was a necessary way to approach it, but it was a lot of like a trauma-based response around, you know, I'm never getting married again. And in my marriage, parenting had been such a source of pain having to parent in front of another adult and feeling very criticized and judged, yeah, that I was like, I don't want to combine those two um at all. But over the years of dating, I too, I looking back, I definitely I ended up, you know, introducing somebody that I was dating at one point to my kids, like on a one time, you know, family in town kind of thing as a friend. And then when I dated the guy that I dated for about a year, um he actually was very I mean, you as Quinn knows, because she was there through all of it, we went on family. trips together with his kids and my kids and it was a totally different approach that really came about because when we met we weren't dating so he met my kids and got to know them before we started yeah yeah organically and so he kind of had a real not a huge relationship but at least a knowing they knew him he knew them before we started dating and so it was really natural to have him around with them and then eventually we introduced our kids to each other and looking back at that it was really a beautiful experience for all of them to get to kind of know each other and all of us to kind of grow and learn through that.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah yeah which I I know we're gonna talk with later about like how those beliefs have changed but in the beginning I was very like there is no benefit we'll just keep the two separate I really also I think I had a stigma from you know cruel things that people had said about you know women introducing their boyfriends to their kids and right I really was afraid and did not want to be that woman in Airport yeah yeah that woman nobody wants to be that woman uh huh I'm like so cruel it is it's incredibly cruel so let's talk about dating apps we've both been on them when you started dating what were your thoughts about dating apps once again I went in without a lot of backstory or preconceived ideas just a lot of like excitement and enthusiasm for something new I tend to like to jump into shit and figure it out later you certainly do that was before I understood that I have CPTSD and now understanding the CPTSD part I'm a little bit more like ooh this is maybe we go a little little gentle we don't have to always just full send and hope we have a parachute later but yeah it was very bring it on open expansive yeah let's let's try it yeah and for me again the opposite I thought it was just for hookups these are not real people this is a very dangerous way um I did meet my husband back in the 90s we were in the first iterations of match.com or whatever I met him on the internet and like you and as typical of many Mormon marriages we met and married within three months and very much didn't know the person because people can lie for three months pretty easily pretty easily yeah you oh my God now that I've dated more I'm like three months holy shit can you believe we got married no no three months no especially because you you know three months was like my mark in the beginning in you know for the first like what two years of my dating I never like things would always break up at three months and it was so crazy to be thinking right now I'd be getting married to this person like oh so crazy okay I want to hear about your challenges what did what are some of the basic challenges and you you kind of mentioned it before um you know about STDs safe sex making sure that you can get in get out get home are there any other challenges that were even on your radar before you started dating no I mean it's such a good example of how much dating has helped me learn so much about myself right I kind of in diving in began to learn the things about myself that I now understand are my challenges right the anxious attachment piece the CBTSD which those all tie into that like being able to ask for what I want speak up when it I don't want something that's the navigating sex piece and you know I think for for especially like one thing I do want to say here for a lot of women especially because I have a lot of clients who yeah they haven't been in the dating world in like a good 15 20 years and perhaps didn't date heavily before that I was surprised to see how much like men did not advocate or step forward with wearing condoms like if that was gonna happen that was a hundred percent gonna be on me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah and I would have loved to have had a girlfriend be like heads up this is what it's gonna be like and just always always have a condom always know going in that you're gonna do that for you and don't leave it up to them because if you leave it up to them a good like 90% of the time they're just gonna opt to yeah to to not use it. And um that was nobody had prepared me for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah so for me my challengers my challenges were a lot around mindset because I had so much fear I had been absolutely 100% faithful to my husband and I had cut off as is typical within high demand religions and Mormonism I had cut off all friendships with my male friends. So the only interactions I had with men were men I was related to or were a part of my church. But I didn't have any male friends. And so I had moved men out of the position of even being an option for friendships and they were all part of the man bad story. And so I had so much fear that men will hurt me. But I also had a lot of fear about myself that I would lose myself I would self-betray I would stay with someone even when I didn't want to that I would go along with things that didn't feel good to me because that was so much the story of my marriage I was afraid I would go too fast I was afraid I would go too slow and lose somebody like all the all the wrong things like I was going to do all the wrong things because I felt like my marriage had been all the wrong things and I would just repeat that and that was a huge hurdle for me the fear of men and the fear of losing myself and I think that's what kept me from dating for a for months and months and months thinking I had to heal that first before I could date yes and not realizing that it's through the dating that you heal it. Yes yes yes yeah okay and finally why date I mean because there is a cost to it there's the time there's the effort there's the risk of destroying your peace you're risking your life so why date Quinn this is like you could die because men are bad men are bad why date and see and that I know such a good example of how like I was not going into dating thinking like I could die like that just wasn't on my radar like little bit of yeah um so and I know we have very different reasons on this one.
SPEAKER_04So my reasoning came from I think it's just part of the creature that I am it loves falling in love. It loves the experience of meeting someone new and completely getting caught up in the experience of learning about them and loving them and experiencing life with them. So it really and not that I consciously knew that about myself and was like this is why I'm gonna date but it just felt like and and although it wasn't like the defining reason why I I decided to get divorced I did know that a part of me wanted the experience of having experiencing like deep soul connected the kind of love you hear about in books and songs. And to do that I knew I'm gonna have to get out there and and and keep jumping off of cliffs and hoping that like it will eventually lead to you know where I'm wanting to go. So I I had very much a like growth mindset of this is how I'm gonna figure out what I really want in a partner what I really enjoy and to do that I've gotta just go for it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So for me before I was dating my thoughts about women who did date was informed by the types of girlfriends I had who were divorced and they're they were kind of divided into two groups. There were the ones that were open to dating but they also wanted to get married and then there are the ones that did not want to date did not want to get married like if you don't want to get married don't date and so I didn't have an example of women who dated have no intention of creating you know a life partnership or a legal marriage. And so my thoughts of dating was well you would only date if you really want to have a guy and the only reason you would want to have a guy would be for Dick and money like he can help support me or you're just totally desperate.
SPEAKER_04You need somebody from the outside to love you to validate you but at the time before I had the experience that got me out of my head and into the dating world um I I saw no good reason no good which just shows what a kick ass coach you are that your personal beliefs could be like this is an absolute racket and yet you could coach me through dating and at no point did I ever feel like you were like what the fuck is she doing? This is a waste of time right yeah yeah well and I do just a quick side note that I really do love about our friendship and what I feel like I heard from you over the years of watching me date is you seeing that experience for me of falling in love and then the heartbreak when it would end but then the experience of like just the expansion of more and more and more of myself as I went through that. I think in the beginning you were like why are we doing this? This is just torture. It was excruciating and you would you would encourage me to date and I would think why the hell would you think I would want to do this this looks terrible yeah but that changed over time didn't it yeah yeah so give me just well let's just start with a taste of a first date your first first date after your divorce is complete I think I know your first date tell me yeah so this would be with William right I'd met him on I bought it with someone else did you was it oh climber that is the climber oh my god I'm so glad you know my dating life right thank god we're doing this podcast together because if I was recording it by myself afterwards you'd be like just so you know that was not true that actually wasn't your first date yes okay okay okay I'm remembering oh my god this is what best friends are for to remember the shit you have forgotten because you have a trauma response of black blacking out your I don't remember his name I don't remember his name either um I had it was fun because um remember that night I like knew I was gonna meet someone I had this like really fun intuitive feeling actually it wasn't fun it was kind of stressful at the time it was like fun stressful yes um and I felt this impression to go kind of get out there and go climbing at a climbing gym I hadn't been at before I hadn't climbed in forever I go I'm climbing having a good time and as I'm putting my water bottle back there's this gorgeous man putting his stuff away and I think I just ended up saying hi or something and he of course had an Australian accent because I have a thing for Aussies and I um I remember talking to him and just having a good time and then I think correct me if I'm wrong Quinn but I was bold enough to be like what are you doing he was like just in town in Dallas for some kind of work thing and I was like let's go out to dinner like I initiated he said yes he didn't even have a car yeah I jokingly like as we're walking out to my car I'm like you're not gonna kill me right somewhere it was in there somewhere it was in there somewhere and we went out and we got sushi and we had such a fun time and then I brought him back to the climbing gym I think he he must he did have like a rental there and I got like my first kiss makeout session post divorce and um yeah it was really it was all the things it was super dynamic. I want to say like oh it was super fun it was super fun and it was also um intense because of that whole anxious attachment CPTSD part of me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah because you saw him this one night and you've never seen him again and that was so excruciating for your nervous system.
SPEAKER_04Yes there was so much just instantaneous attachment to him and we like tried to WhatsApp once he left and then it COVID COVID hit that's what it was he was gonna like come back into town and all of a sudden it was like I can't come back because of COVID and I I just really struggled with the and looking back now I'm like oh my god you had just met this person like you know now that I'm four years down the road I'm like I've learned how to like have fun little interactions and connections with people and not make it mean and now we have this connection it means there needs to be more which I'm still learning because as Quinn knows I did this at Burning Man as well I met somebody there that my brain just kind of instantly goes if we have a really strong connection into like and how do we keep this going like obviously we're meant to be more in each other's lives and that's not always the case.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah but I think it was a really good initial experience for you a jump into the pool into the deep end that you followed your intuition you trusted yourself you went and there was this beautiful rom-comness about it oh I went to the which is like such a flavor for me we I yes there is something about me that loves these like high intensity rom-com situations falling in love with people that that don't you know that sometimes work out and are more long term but yeah can often just end up being smaller you know experiences that that don't become permanent aspects of yeah yeah so my first date Yes please okay so you had come into town we met in person for the first time and you were staying at my place and the day before you came into town I had done a plant medicine ceremony with some psilocybin and during that experience I was able to process so much trauma and it continues to be a medicine that I find incredibly helpful in processing trauma because I didn't know how to stop thinking that I was in mortal danger by living in a world with men. And it was through the process of that medicine journey that the thought it's not like it came to me it's like I was able to uncover the truth that had always been there and that was that I am safe the the me the capital M me that will live after this body is gone she is safe and that there's nothing anyone any man can do that will make me unsafe and so it gave me this deep courage and this thirst for life and this trust for life but there was also this desire going into that trip I knew you were coming into town you were always encouraging me to date yeah I was very like you are gorgeous let's get you out there you like sex this is fun come on yeah yeah so while you were here so you know I did the medicine you were here for a couple of days we went shopping um you were buying lingerie and you were um helping me get some new bras and panties because I was wearing underwear from Costco and you were not having yeah I was like girl we need yes like especially well I and I just have to pause and say this is one of the most beautiful parts of our journey because we came from Mormonism where underwear was you know prescripted by our religion you had to wear garments and that the reclaiming of my body and reclaiming like specifically like underwear and how it gets to look on me and how much starting to wear sexy underwear gave me back that feeling of like this is my body for me and I get to love it and enjoy it and feel sexy in it.
SPEAKER_04It is not about some man and and wearing it for them and so yeah when I when I saw yours and and just you know that sometimes we because it's the only thing we're seeing it's the thing that's not taken care of it's the thing that gets old and gets worn out and wanting you to have that experience of feeling really sexy and beautiful in your underwear. And we had so much fun. I remember when we went to try them on and you were like you're coming in with me and I was like yes yeah we'd got to be we weren't even used to being like naked around anyone you know another good part of dating right too was getting used to being naked And confident in my body. But yes, in this specific aspect, it was just such a beautiful moment of being, you know, changing clothes with a best friend, feeling safe with you. Yes. Getting to be like, oh my God, do you see how this fits right here on the sides? And like finally, like, and the way it holds you up and you feeling so confident and beautiful. Like, I almost want to post like a picture of you before that weekend when we first met at the beginning. Yes, on my blog, and then like an after photo because it was pure fucking magic what we created together in that weekend, really reclaiming your body and shedding that's when you realize like I am not wearing clothes that cover my shoulders anymore.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And within Mormonism, women have to have their shoulders covered and and they're jokingly called porn shoulders because it's so ridiculous that women can't even show their shoulders. But I did not own any tank tops. I I only had clothes that covered my shoulders. And we went shopping after the underwear. We specifically went to look for clothing that was sleeveless. And on another day that week, I remember we went to brunch and I wore that green shirt that I know. This is the picture I want to put up. And both of my shoulders are out. And I was like, is that everyone looking at me? I was so uncomfortable. Like, I'm naked, I'm naked. I'm walking through this whole mall naked.
SPEAKER_03And I was like, let them, let them look. I hope they're looking. You're welcome, world.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. I yes. It was such a fun energy. And yes.
SPEAKER_00Scary. But it was also that weekend when I asked you to help me put up a dating profile.
SPEAKER_04The dating profile. Y'all, this was so much fun because looking back, you were definitely in flashbacked, but because we were, we were, you felt safe with me, we were like laughing and like free, you were freaking out about this.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I was. So much drama, so much drama. So if you're going to start dating, I suggest you have support. I don't think I could have ever done it without you. I mean, just to have you see my body and tell me I was beautiful, for you to be excited for me, to take pictures of me saying, we're gonna go do a photo shoot. And you can copy my dating profile. Yes. This is how I like to have it. And it just meant so much to me that I wasn't alone and I didn't realize how much I needed that support, that sisterhood that you gave me. Because we did get that profile up, and you said, Okay, now we have to like some guys. And I was like, No.
SPEAKER_04And I remember you were so critical. Do you remember you were like, Oh yes, no, no, no. And I was, and at the time, I mean, we may do another episode in the future talking about, you know, using the apps intentionally based off what you're wanting to get out of them, right? So if you are looking for like, I want to get married and I want to find my soulmate, you're gonna do a very different style of using the apps than where we were at, which was we were just looking for expansion, growth. I want to meet people, I want to figure out what flavor I like, so I need to try different flavors. Yes. And you were so aggressively like, hate all these flavors, hate all these flavors, that I was like, okay, just kind of let's let's just like be open to instead of where's my person, yes, what what humans could I meet?
SPEAKER_00Yes, because the guy that I met, so he liked my profile, and you said, look, he's he's still on the app. Message him right now, and I was like, no, no, I'm not gonna message him right now. And but I did, I think I did, and then I threw my phone because I was I do! I remember this, I was so overwhelmed. But we ended up chatting um over the weekend, and I ended up meeting with him, and his name is Bill, and I ended up dating for a few weeks. He we're still in touch, we're still good friends. We went out for coffee a few weeks ago. He texted me, you know, happy 4th of July yesterday. He was the perfect landing place, such a soft landing for my nervous system. He was so kind and open-hearted and adored me. So coming out of my marriage, where there was this strong man bad, men say terrible things to you, men treat you terribly, you can't trust men, and landing in the world of Bill. I mean, it didn't last long term, it was only a few weeks because I was continuing to date, but it was the perfect landing for me. Yes. And while you love the the rom-com fairy tale, I just I didn't need the adventure, I just needed someplace soft to land, especially with this new belief that no one can hurt me. Like I I am resilient, and the me that is here for this, she is above being hurt. And so to go in and experience that, it was incredibly, incredibly healing. And I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for Bill. I'm grateful that you had me message him back. Um I'm embarrassed about some of the texts that I sent to him before I learned about being smart about what you send people. But he's a man I can trust. Like, it's it's okay. It's okay.
SPEAKER_04But um, maybe that's I was gonna say lots of beautiful. I think something that helped the most uh for both of us going through dating, this idea that you have of like I'm safe and and not sweating so much some of the smaller things. Like, I think we did a good job of helping each other to not just obsess and freak out over those mistakes you are inevitably going to make. Yes. Because it just is what it is. You're a human and it's gonna be messy. And I mean, that date I went on with the guy who had a tattoo across his neck that said the butcher in a different language.
unknownDo you remember that?
SPEAKER_04And now I like, y'all, this date was crazy. That was a crazy I and he was someone I had met off Tinder, ton of tattoos, but I was trying to branch out, y'all. You branched I was you branched I branched, I branched hard, and I show up and kind of immediately knew, like, oh, this is not really, and then proceeded to have a three-hour date where he poured out his entire soul to me, told me deep details about his involvement with the Dallas mafia, and at the end wants to kiss me, and I'm like, ooh, I gotta go, and then call him afterwards to be like, I don't think I'm ever gonna see you again. And he's like devastated because I have people pleased him for three hours and he's borne his soul to me. Like, yeah, that was a moment where I called up Quinn afterwards and I was like, damn, I fucked up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And we're not after perfection, we are after growth, we're after experience. Yeah, because you wouldn't know the price of people pleasing a man for three hours if you hadn't done it. And now she never dates people that have tattooed the butcher on themselves.
SPEAKER_04Shut up, stop. It was in a different language. I didn't know. Oh my god. It was just so yes, but that no, it was a huge moment because after that, remember, I I figured out like what do I do in that situation? And it was something about like you go to the bathroom, you gather your wits about you, and then you come back out and you say, Hey, thank you for your time. This really isn't a fit for me, and I don't want to, you know, waste your evening.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I'm gonna, I'm just gonna go. I had never even thought that you could do that. I'd never understood a situation where that would be appropriate. Now I do. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00Which segues perfectly to the topic of breaking up. So breaking up is my least favorite part of dating, or telling someone who's interested that it's not a fit for me. I found it excruciating, but I got really good at it. And I think for a lot of women, coming off of a divorce and wanting to find someone to share their life with, wanting that connection, and then getting to a point where either the person breaks up with them or they feel like they need to break up with that person can be very triggering. Why don't you give us a little bit of your history?
SPEAKER_04So I this is once again the like absolute gift to our listeners that we are such different attachment styles and then have had such different dating experiences. Because where Quinn's is like, I just absolutely hate breaking up with people. Mine is like, I just absolutely hate being broken up with because I am the anxious. So the majority of my experiences have been avoidance breaking up with me, where Quinn has been the avoidant breaking up with the anxious.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yes. Okay, yeah. So we're clear, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yes, just just so we can like keep track of the differences here. Um, and I will speak a little bit because yes, I in general, either being broken up with or breaking up, because you watched me have to break up with my partner that I dated for a year, and how devastatingly like hard that was. Hard enough that we got back together, hard enough that I wanted to practice it at least three times. At least, at least at least. I'm sorry. That last one just didn't feel right. Can we do this again? Can we get back together? And like in two months, I'm gonna break up with you again. And then let's like get back together again, and then in a month I'm gonna break up with you again.
SPEAKER_00Oh that was so painful. It was for me. No, no, it was fine for me. I liked it.
SPEAKER_04You lie, I it's hard. Which we're going to talk about that later. I know you talked about this piece of going like being willing to go back. So I I won't dive into that yet. I will come back to like, okay. So for me, getting broken up with was hard in retrospect, I realize, because it would flash me back to that childhood feeling of abandonment and worrying you coached me through so much with every breakup around like, am I too much or am I not enough?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And early on in my dating, you I think you really saw how I would make, you know, breakups about me, what did I do wrong? I'd spiral into a lot of self-criticism, shame, self-hatred. And so much of my work as an anxious attachment that you coached me through so beautifully was learning that it was it wasn't a bad thing when it ended. Like it was it didn't mean anything wrong with it didn't mean there was anything wrong with me or anything wrong with them. It just wasn't a fit and that that was okay. And then also I want to like layer onto that, because this is important. There is like some uh if you're not careful, like there can be trauma that builds up from those breakups that then starts to make you where you you would catch me, where in future relationships I'd start to feel the breakup coming and I would try, I would be tempted to like back off, or like, oh, I need to like stop speaking up so much, or obviously I'm like needing too much connection, so I need to like not text him as much or call him as much. And instead of you were helping retrain my brain towards integrity with myself over keeping the relationship and abandoning myself to do that, and so that meant when I wanted to get smaller, you would be like, No, no, no, you just keep being you, if not even be bigger and yeah, put on the six-inch heels and strength, yes. And if that is too much for him, that does not mean you are too much. Yeah, it's it's okay, and that was like once we figured that out, then I was able to start accessing what I learned with Colin, which was the good goodbye.
SPEAKER_00So unpack a good goodbye. I think this is such a beautiful concept, it's not available for everyone. No, it's not, but it can be a different way of being of saying goodbye. So tell us what a good goodbye looks like.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I also want to give credit. This really came from my coach at the time, Alexander James, which both Quinn and I had. He was phenomenal. He at the time we went through his coaching program together, he completely changed changed my life in so many ways. I love going back and looking at his coaching and just like, oh, he was so ahead of his time when I was coaching with him. But he was the one who, as my coach, identified for me, you have this broken relationship with goodbye. And that in resisting an ending of a relationship, I like either I would like cling for too long or I would try to exit before it was really over, which by the way is just anxious and avoidant behaviors. The anxious is where we just cling and cling and cling, even though we can feel that the death is coming, we are avoiding it by clinging. Where where you go a little bit more, Quinn, right? Is like I'm out the door before it's even fully dead. We do not need to grieve this, we're moving on. Yes, the body hasn't even cooled. Stop, stop. Yes, and it's just, but I mean, I'm the one that's like the body's been dead for like weeks, and I'm still like making out with it. And you're like, it's time to stop.
SPEAKER_00Like, oh my god.
SPEAKER_04And we can laugh, I know, and we can laugh about this because this is the this is the reality of like this is the gross, messy, like, reality of relationships that nobody talks about. The like being traumatized from your childhood and not receiving the love that you needed, and then actually trying to go have a relationship with someone while not knowing all of your insides and outsides. So it's it's messy, and we can acknowledge that. Um but he'd he'd helped me see you have this broken relationship with goodbye. And at the time I was dating Colin, who I'd we'd been dating for probably like two or three months, same thing, fell in really deeply, loved everything about him. Ultimately, we wanted different things. You know, he's wanting to get married and have kids, like not a fit. And when the breakup was kind of happening on the phone, I had enough presence to be able to advocate and say, I understand this is ending, and I want want to see if you'd be open to a good goodbye, which would be I want to see you one last time. And on this night, I want to like we both are gonna know that after the next morning we're not gonna see each other again. But I want it to be a space where I can just really lean in and love all of you and appreciate all that we've been through and all that we got to explore together and leave feeling, you know, like I think on mutual footing the next day, like nobody's the victim, nobody's the villain, kind of thing. Yeah. And um yeah, I remember driving out that night to go see him. He lived in Fort Worth, so it was a pretty far drive, and just feeling all the feelings, right? The joy at the memories, the grief that this person was no longer gonna be in my life, spending the evening with him, um, and crying like the whole way home when I left in the morning.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, and I and you kind of got to see it from the other side, Quinn. What was your your take on that experience?
SPEAKER_00Part of the breakup, and we didn't realize at the time, was you know, the anxious attachment played into that around some actions at his birthday party. And so there was this so there was a lot of undiagnosed stuff happening at the same time. For sure. But you had been in enough relationships and been broken up with enough that yes, you were at that place where you wanted to advocate, and you really went in with an open heart, not an expectation that it would continue.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, it was not a manipulation, it was not like this is so that I can like reel you back in. It was very much like this is it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because he wanted someone religious, you are spiritual, not religious. He wanted children, you weren't sure about that. It just wasn't a fit on a lot of levels, even though you adored him, and he was great in so many ways. But I've got to give him credit for being willing to meet you in that place. And the the breakup's always challenging, especially for an anxious attachment. So there was a lot of grieving, and it was a few months later he reached back out in I think he wanted to remain friends, and that was not an option for you, just because there were still um there was still hope that it could be something, and so you also had the presence of mind to say, I need you to not be texting me because it's too hard for me. So tell me, because I know that there are some men that you've dated and you have remained friends, what does that look like for you? Do you think it's a hard and fast rule that yeah, if you date someone, you should be able to be friends with them, or do you have criteria? What's your experience?
SPEAKER_04It is so specific to the individual. And I know you know this as well, Quinn. Because you've had guys that you I think we both, once we'd like had had it happen, we thought that that should be the standard that like you should be able to leave and still remain friends. I now would say like never have a hard and fast rule or standard of this is what a good goodbye or a good breakup looks like. Um, because there's just so many different factors there. But I would say, you know, some of the things that have made it easier to remain friends. Um if I'm thinking about the the men that I've had that with, typically um, I mean, the biggest one would be my my best friend, Matt, now. I mean, that is the biggest, like we had a very like intense, connected dating relationship, then like didn't see each other for a year, then reconnected and reignited all of that. And ultimately though, what makes that work I think is that the chemistry really isn't there for either of us.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. The romantic chemistry, but the Friendship connection, there's a true love for each other.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And when we broke up, it was from the space of me acknowledging, like, hey, I don't feel like there's I like fucking adore you as a friend, and you're such a huge and we could connect a lot on like intellectual levels, have a lot of fun talking to each other. But and also like I could tell I needed other I need a partner to be a lot of like emotional processing, secure attachment, like um, and he was just surprisingly enough, because you know, when we first, you know, when we first started dating, he was like, I don't believe in being friends afterwards, like the only guy that there, you know, guys will say that, but they just really secretly want to fuck you. And so it's been so fun to watch him go through all of that and come out the other side, and he is now such a like, no, Britta just genuinely is like my family, and yes, even though we dated in the past, um we're we really do feel like family for each other. So I think the key is us not feeling that romantic love for each other. I love and adore him as a human. I do not feel romantically, physically drawn to him anymore, like I did when we were dating. And I think that just came about through the time, like as we were dating, realizing oh, we're not as much of a fit as it seemed like we were in the beginning as romantic partners, but we are a really great fit as friends, and then having someone who is a guy who can see you outside of just like a partner role, right? I gotta give Matt credit that he sees the complexity of my mind and my personality and wants that in his life. Yes, versus as you know, I've had partners that I've tried to stay friends with afterwards, and because there is so much I don't know if it's history or chemistry there, it's painful for them to try and stay friends. Yeah, yeah, and just respecting that when it can't be a uh that kind of a situation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think it's okay to make the ask. I think it's always okay to make the ask if you break up with someone and you want them to stay in your life, but it's also okay to say it's a no for me. Like I wish you the best and goodbye. That's okay too for either party. And what I I love about Matt is that he had never experienced this before, but now he introduces you to his girlfriends. Yes. I love that. He invites you to come and you know stay at his place when you're in town, um, down in Dallas. Like there's there is this mutuality that's available there. And as I think of the men that I've been able to remain friends with, I know that there um are some that would prefer to be dating me, but I just have to be really clear and sometimes restate my boundaries and say, this really is just friendship. It is like, don't try anything, or the friendship ends. And it's not a problem for me if a man wants to be more than friends. Like I don't care, I can still have them in my life. And I think the easiest person to be friends with are the ones where yes, there just isn't a chemistry, and you both agree you are a person I value. And this is not, it is not romantic. And so for me, that's my friend Vic, who Yeah, that's who I was thinking of for you. Yes, yeah, and you know, we still hang out and message, and he'll tell me about who he's dating, and I'll tell him, you know, who I'm dating, and he gives me all kinds of terrible advice. But it's just fun to have friends in my life.
SPEAKER_04I love that I have male friends, yes, it adds this is such a huge piece of owning my right to have the community and the relationships in my life I want to have because as you know, this has been an issue at times with partners. Um I wouldn't say with one partner in specific specifically who really felt threatened by these friendships and couldn't wrap his head around it really just being a friendship for me. And I want to like emphasize that that really came out of, I think, a like a lack of trust and his his own issues around trust, whether that came out of his trauma, but like me being able, I loved that in that moment I owned and kept like, look, these are my friends, and you needing me to not be around my friends to make you feel secure in this relationship is a no-go for me. Yeah, like this is your work to do because I know who I am, and I am not going to cheat on you. You are my person, and I also love deeply these people who are at this point family to me, and I'm not going to let go of them because you're you've got ideas about what that means that really are, I think, more cultural programming than you know, they they weren't true to the reality of who I am and what that was in my life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I want to kind of segue into a very specific kind of breakup that we alluded to earlier, where you break up and then you get back together and you break up and you get back together. And in your case, you break up and you get back together and you get back together.
SPEAKER_04And you still sometimes think about getting back together because you just like to do that to yourself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So tell us about that because I don't think it's uh I mean, people going through the divorce process sometimes, they do that where we're gonna get divorced, no, we're gonna work on it. Yeah, that that fluctuation and change in frequency, and it still happens in dating. And I thought it was actually a really beautiful part of your growth. So tell us about that for you.
SPEAKER_04I love you saying your take on it because that was the greatest gift you gave me, Quinn, was as my best friend, and also, you know, as my coach at that still, you're you've always been my coach, you're still my coach. Um I felt a lot of shame about the getting back together because in my mind it needs to be clean cut and you need to know what your decision is and it needs to stay that way. And so I took the getting back together as like, well, something's gone wrong, or maybe I made the wrong decision in the first place. And I would have, I think, spiraled in that more if you hadn't just really done such a beautiful job of like you can trust yourself. And that's what we just always kept coming back to was what feels right. And if we if I think back on why I went back, now that I understand CPTSD and emotional flashbacks, I had heavily nervous system regulated with this individual. Yeah, like um, I had shared a lot of my pain, a lot of my journey. I was I had really deeply loved and like kind of soul entwined with this person. And what we noticed when we broke up that first time is I just could not regulate without him. Yeah. Do you remember? I was like crying all the time, couldn't like function, and I had nobody else, you know, you're not nearby. I had nobody else to like hold me and help me. And what felt the most supportive, although at the time we didn't realize this is what was happening, right? Is like you're just so dysregulated, you can't even function. Um, we would get out like a month away from the breakup, and it would feel like I want to get, I want to lean back in. I miss this person. Maybe we can work on things, maybe things can change. Um and I what I love is that you didn't freak out in that moment because you all along could see this isn't this in so many ways is not the relationship she most wants. There are worrying red flags and dynamics that are unhealthy and that are not long-term going to be supportive for what she wants most, and yet you didn't do what so many people do, which is be like, oh my God, what are you thinking? This is such a terrible idea. Why would you go back? You just always leaned into like you can trust your intuition. And what would happen is I would go back, I would be in the relationship, and sure enough, with enough time, the issues that caused me to break up in the first place would re-emerge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Except they would almost like be worse this next time around, and it would become clear again. And I would get brave enough to like, okay, it really does have to be over. And like, like we said, I ended up doing that three times. I broke up that first time, went back, broke up again, and then that third and final time when I but the beautiful thing is when I broke up that third and final time, I remember telling you it just felt like something snapped. And it doesn't mean, I mean, even after that third and final time, I definitely have had like there was a whole year of still feeling some of that little like draw, and then ultimately, you know, reaching back out to him a couple months ago to try and get that good goodbye that I want so badly with this person, and this like leaving on this equal footing of nobody has to be the bad guy, um, and ultimately not getting that again and just having to like be okay with being the villain in this person's mind. But I'm so grateful. You never destroyed my confidence in myself or my trust in my intuition throughout that whole process.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I I learned I've got my back.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And from the outside, I mean, you may say that I I was not freaking out. Not on not on our calls, I was not freaking out, but there there were times where I was like, what is she thinking? Does she not remember when he did this, the this, the this? And that that was the you know, the best friend part of me. Um, but I saw time and time again that there was always something else for you to learn. When you were feeling that drawback, you I knew that you could go in, I knew you would have my support, that you were not going in blind, you were not going in alone, and that if you needed to exit, I knew you could do that again. And the final time you told me, I want this to be the last time. But that had to be for you to decide. It's just like in our marriages, at least for my marriage, my family wanted me out of that marriage for a long time before I was ready. But when I was ready, then it felt really good and authentic, and I was the authority. But if people are trying to shame you out of a relationship, or even if you're trying to shame yourself out of a relationship, it feels terrible and it undermines your self-trust. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, for sure. And that's why now I just love embracing more of acknowledging like it is super messy. It just it just is. Um and it makes me think too of in your in, I know in your own journey with your current partner, multiple moments of like breaking up and then later on feeling like I want to lean back in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I don't kind of also like exposing pulling back the curtain on this idea that we have that you should know and it should all make sense and be this like sequentially perfect way. I think Mormonism taught me that because it's like you get married and then you go to the temple, and then you have the kids, and but now that I'm out like in the real world, I'm like, oh, it is messy here. And people that you loved way back when, like, come back around later.
SPEAKER_00And yes, because we're all growing. It's not just this side of the equation that grows in dating, it's the other side, whoever you're dating. They're going to have their experiences. If if you feel drawn back to them at some later point, it's not the same river that you walked out of. You're gonna walk into a different river with them. So, given the time that we have, I really want to just focus on you, and I can do a separate podcast to kind of wrap up my stuff. Okay. But I want to get back to well, I want you to share the pearl necklace analogy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I'll make this one short and sweet. I I love that I came through dating with this idea that it wasn't about finding that person that was my person, as much as it was collecting experiences and like beautiful moments with a variety of people. And what I loved thinking of it was each guy that I dated became like a pearl on this necklace. So each of them was giving me a gift in that experience, even if it ended up as a breakup, because I took the mindset of I'm gonna come and I'm gonna show up as all of me, and I'm going to fully love in the way that I want to love. And um, however it ends, I'm gonna be there for me. Then there was no like it really helped ease and put in perspective what you saw with me, which was like the amount of growth and learning I had with each partner, and really over those years, what I've seen is with each partner, it's gotten better and better and better and better.
SPEAKER_00And that was because okay, you were just about to tell us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, why is that? Because I'm becoming more of me, yes, right? It's not that I'm magically finding like better guys as much as I am showing up as more with more understanding of who I am, more completely who I am, and that makes the potential for the relationships I'm in to be so much deeper. And and it does draw in partners that typically know more about themselves.
SPEAKER_00Yes, as you have become more self-aware, like you with your current partner, so much awareness. Yeah. On and you have both paid a high price to get there. Like you've done the work to be that for each other now, which makes it so rich for the both.
SPEAKER_04So, so rich. Which that's the perspective I want for so many of us coming out of divorce and dating. Is don't go looking for the big fat pearl that's gonna like be your home run guy that you're gonna live with the rest of your life. Like, okay, that may happen, but if you're so focused on that, you will miss out on all the other journeys and pearls along the way that just came out of me seeing another human in their humanness and not so much from a perspective like, how much do you fit me? Are you great? Are you not? What do I like? What do I not like? But just like I can meet and be interested and witness this human. And with some of them, yes, I am gonna fall in love and it's gonna be more. I mean, I have like deeply dated, probably, you know, 10 plus guys over the last four years, but that does not encapsulate the like 30 plus men, you know, 40 plus men that I've been on dates with and just like shown up and experienced a night with.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_04And all of those have value for me because none of them were just like, oh, this is a wasted night because he's not more than just, you know, a human that I get to eat dinner with. Every single one of them, it was like, even in the date, like realizing, okay, yeah, this is probably not gonna be after this night, but I'm gonna enjoy being with this person for what it is.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that ability to cultivate presence has been a beautiful skill that you have really worked for because with an anxious attachment, you would tend to project yourself into the future of oh, we met this way, it means this, and you're much um better now at sinking into what is being in the moment. And I think that created some of the magic in meeting your current partner, in being where you are. Yeah. Yes. Okay, so let's wind back to the beliefs about dating. I'm gonna ask you about each topic and you tell me what your beliefs are now. So if we remember in the beginning, your beliefs about men, very naive. I just got lucky, like let's let's jump in the deep end. What do you believe about men now?
SPEAKER_04Um, I would say I'm much more selective now, and I can see how there are men that want my attention that in the past I would have given it to them because it's just like, oh, you're interested. And and I want to caveat this by saying, let that be a part of the journey, especially in the beginning, if you just haven't even gotten to taste all the flavors.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, like so there is a time and a place for um educated openness to what's available. Um now, because I have a different approach to relationship, I'm not as like, let's just go jump off every cliff and see what's at the bottom and you know, have a ride down. I now date specifically to heal my CPTSD.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04At the beginning of the year, I really shifted my view. Even um a couple years ago when I got off the dating apps and decided you remember this. I was like, I'm not really here just to like be spending energy everywhere, and I really turned that over to the universe and said, You seem to know better than me what's gonna produce the most growth. So, like, send them in. I want to meet people organically, and I got that. I yeah, really did. I met partners at Burning Man, I met my partner through you know a contract he was doing on my house previous to that, and then this recent partner through the community. So I think with when it comes to men realizing not everybody gets access to my time now. And even if somebody likes me and it feels good to be liked, I like now to be more intentional around do you have the awareness, the self-work, the grounding in yourself to hold space for me? Because I want to be with a partner who's more uh securely attached than I am at the moment. So that's where that's you have a lot to offer.
SPEAKER_00So just because you have an anxious attachment and prefer a more secure partner, it's not like you have to have this person to like be your parent or something, you know, the secure attachment that you can be with. Because as I've seen, how you love like you want them to have done their work. You have spent years doing your work. You want them to hold space for you when you're not resourced. You offer that to your partner as well. There's a lot of equality, even when you bring different gifts to the table.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, which I'm so glad you brought that up because when you said what's changed about men, it's actually what's changed about me is I now value the level of like dedication, commitment, and just f love that I will pour into a partner, and I now feel like I deserve to have that level back.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah. All right, let's talk about your kids. So you have gone, you've tried a lot of things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So tell me in the beginning, it was the two worlds have to be separate.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And now?
SPEAKER_04I would say now I'm much more open to seeing the value in my children getting exposed to men that I consider high-caliber examples that I want them to be around.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So this is still really new for me. The only, you know, I did that with my partner that I dated for a year. With that, um, I don't feel like that was the same criteria. That was more like I was trying to explore if I really wanted to possibly get married and have like a combined family. That was still like potentially on the table for me. And what I found was it was just way too dysregulating and overwhelming to have five boys around, although a part of me loved it and all of them loved it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04It was too much. Versus now, I still don't think I really want a partner to come be in my life with my boys. But um Joe, who I'm dating now, I recently, like for my birthday, had him come over and spend the evening around me and the boys. And I love how he's able to just be a presence that like helps ground me. And it allows for me to be a little bit more subtled and grounded around my boys. And I do love them seeing, not to mention, you know, the beautiful like bouquet that he brought me and the way he's affectionate and kind with me. I want them to see those examples. So it's now a bit more about like, okay, it doesn't mean he's gonna be their dad, but I do like them seeing examples of uh masculinity that I want them to emulate later.
SPEAKER_00Okay, let's talk about dating apps. You don't currently use them, you've met your partners organically in the past couple of years. But for women who are considering dating, what advice would you give them from your perspective now about dating apps?
SPEAKER_04You really have to know what you are interested in achieving because the app is just taking an action. It's not gonna get you the result until you know what your result is. And so I'm sure you'll you introduced me to the idea of like the haystack dating, which I'm sure you'll do an episode on because that is brilliant. Um, that's a beautiful example of knowing what you want from the apps and then using the tool accordingly. I think the biggest thing to be aware of with the apps is if you don't know what you're wanting, they can become a buffer and a time suck, which is why so many people hate them and speak disparagingly about them. And my thought is like, it's not the tool, the tool's not the problem, it's how you're using it. And typically, um, as I got further into dating, that's what the apps became for me a place to kind of have these like short-lived connections or distract myself. Um, so know why you're wanting to use them. They were fun for me in the beginning when I was wanting just a lot of different flavors and experiences. I don't use them now because I I want, you know, that partner I can really yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's just something else you've grown into. So tell me about the challenges of dating now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So I was talking about this today with Joe, that something that really caught me off guard. I got so used to the challenges of falling in love with kind of like avoidance, right? Or and short-lived experiences and how hard it was to like fall in love with someone and then lose them. That was the theme for me for many years of like people leaving that I loved. It is also actually very triggering to have people that you love stay. And now this like realizing that secure attachment also has its own work as well, and that you know, having that safety and like really unconditional love can also be tough. So there's no real escape, you know. We don't go into relationship or dating thinking I'm gonna meet this person or and then it's finally gonna be all great. It it's still the 50-50 of life. Um, but I will say this real quick, and I this is a I want to say this before we end. I was coaching someone yesterday who said this line of like, well, I know relationships are hard and like life is hard, so maybe it's just like hard. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Can we just like stop this bullshit of justifying relationships that are actually not good by saying life is hard and it's like supposed to be this way? Because what I have noticed is yes, life is hard. There's a 50-50 for sure, but when you are in a good relationship, that relationship actually makes life easier because you have someone on your side to go through the hard with.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So understand it's still hard being, you know, dating Joe and having and that I have CBTSD and I still get triggered. But now I have someone who when I go through the hard, we don't like re-traumatize each other. We're actually working through and healing and helping each other through the hard. Yes. And that ties into, I think, your final question for me, which was gonna be like, why date? Why do you do it? Right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, why?
SPEAKER_04Because that is this is the space where I get to heal the things that I didn't get in childhood, where I get to learn how to really feel safe with someone that loves me, where I get to, instead of hating myself for wanting connection, which I still have a lot of trauma around, to rewire those neural pathways to like it is normal to want connection and it is healthy and I am safe. And you've seen it in me, Quinn. I my life is thriving as I have done the journey, right, to get to the point where I can be in relationship with someone who is securely attached. I told you today. Like if I had to do the journey I've been on to get to this point where I am able to date Joe, if I had to do it a hundred times over, I would do all of it over again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Because the work I'm doing now at this level is so fulfilling and so amazing to receive love from someone who can truly see me and love me in the ways that I've wanted my entire life, and that I'm finally giving myself as well, right? Because I can only receive that from him because I've done all the work, like so much work to do it, and I'll be doing it the rest of my life. That is why I dated. And I know I couldn't have dated, you know, five, four years ago. I wouldn't have been ready to date someone like Joe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. It took the journey to get her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Sounds like it's perfect.
SPEAKER_00Sounds like everything works out. It sounds like we can trust life.
SPEAKER_04And it sounds like we can trust ourselves. Yes. Yes, we can trust ourselves in life. Does not mean it will even ever be close to perfect, but maybe this journey is worth it. Yeah, I love that. I love that idea.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, thank you, thank you so much, Britta. And I hope that your dating journeys continue to be the growth that you seek and that you come to know yourself. Because that that is what the gold is coming to know ourselves. So thank you, my friend, for joining me in this conversation.
SPEAKER_04Always, Quinn. I loved this.