Welcome to the Stay or Go podcast, where we're changing the dialogue around divorce so that no woman ever stays in her marriage out of fear. Get ready to dispel myths, learn life-changing tools, and build a solid foundation in yourself from which to make your decision. And now your host, me, Britta Joe. Hello, my lovelies. I am back. Um, I just have to say, I kind of want to share a little bit of what's been going on behind the scenes. The first episode of the affairs two-part saga that we're in, I recorded before going on a big um siblings trip out to Las Vegas. And um I totally intended, you know, was in such an amazing space before that trip to come back and record part two. And y'all, that trip uh was so triggering for my CPTSD that by the end of it, I had the worst flashback I have had this year. And so coming back from that trip, I had to acknowledge for myself, like I am not doing well. I am really, really struggling. And what I need, I was so proud of myself because I was putting a lot of pressure on myself to get this episode out. And I finally just stopped and was like, no, what I need right now is to take care of Mingy. And the trigger that was activated by this trip with all of my siblings, um, you know, we really haven't seen each other altogether since my dad's trial. It's been a couple of years. It was this deep wound of putting everybody else first and taking care of everybody else kind of at the expense of myself. And it was really cool to come back and see that in forcing myself to record this second part last week, it would have been doing the same thing, right? Trying to put all of you first before my mental health and what I needed in that moment. So I'm really, really happy as I'm sitting here about to record this second part that I have taken the time to really wait to record this episode until it feels yummy and I feel more back in my body and grounded, and it's coming from a space of genuine want rather than just the pressure of, you know, people expect this from me. So I need to get it out. So I just before I started this episode, I had to share that with y'all because I love um being very real and letting you guys see what it's like for me. Um and and being an example of really practicing what I preach, which I want, you know, I want you all to do things from a space of genuine want and to be putting yourselves first. So, um, as some of you noticed, last week we didn't have an episode, but um we're about to record, I'm about to record and share this one with y'all. And I'm really the beautiful thing too about having that extra space is I did add in some new stuff to this up to this episode. I'd already had the entire um outline written before I'd left for Vegas, but due to some good coaching calls and some more thoughts, I added in more things. So, see, everything unfolds in the perfect timing that it's meant to if we will just breathe deep and trust ourselves. Okay, so what you all have been, you know, just like that first one, waiting for the second piece of the affair saga that I'm wanting to dive into with all of y'all. So in this second episode, I was realizing as I was looking back over this outline, it really is kind of written, funny enough, from a like, here's an episode that um if you felt safe enough, you could probably be like, um, hey honey, I know you're so upset about that affair that I had. You should probably go listen to this episode. Because as I was reading it, I was like, oh, this is a lot of this is like very directed at men and trying to make clear a lot of things that I think they are missing in this, in this dialogue around um around affairs. So, you know, take it or leave it, I think regardless, it will help a lot of you to notice things in your partners and to see different frameworks than what they may be continuing to like push on you if they've found out about the affair. So to start, I really wanted to take a second to talk about the history of marriage. Um, and want to recommend I'm I'll put it in the show notes. There is a book um that is all about the history of marriage that I remember reading um a couple years back and just loving because I don't know about y'all, but I did not understand that marriage used to be about political alliances and purely for you know economic choices. So it was often arranged by parents. It was like love matches were not a thing. They were done for economic reasons, right? Like we're getting married so that we can work together. Um, we we're having children so that our children can work on the farm. Um it has only been within the last hundred plus or so years that we have changed this. And we have started making marriage and choosing a partner about like love and connection and romantic interest. So I think that's really important to understand why we now judge affairs uh more harshly than we did in the past, because affairs are no longer like affairs are no longer expected to some extent. So in the past, I know this may blow your minds, but and and I do want to caveat by saying, you know, yes, affairs were expected, but they were predominantly allowed and expected from men. Like due to the patriarchy, men have been having affairs for millennia and pretty much always gotten a pass. I mean, I think of like how many like King of England, right, that like had, you know, the wife that he changed the church around to be able to get divorced from so he could be with the other woman. Like, this is well known. And yet, women that if they had affairs or were out of their marriage were, you know, killed or um disowned, thrown out into the street. So there's this whole historical aspect that we have to remember as well in affairs. Um, and then when you tie in religion, I was thinking, you know, the whole idea of like Jezebels, just you know, there's like there's no male Jezebel in the Bible. Religion really, there's a huge blackmailing of the divine feminine woven in and throughout that. And I think we should especially be suspicious of religion's way of taking sexuality and making it only about um, you know, having children and that it has to be done within a marriage. Like all of that just makes me like super, as I start, as I've looked back on it and started dissecting, I'm like, yeah, that just makes me super suspicious. Anybody who tells me that they think they know what God wants me to do with my sexuality, I'm like, mm, yeah, that's gross. Don't talk to me. Um also, I mean, I would say in the culture at large, we have social norms that like, you know, shitty, loveless marriages, that they're fine as long as it looks, you know, okay on the outside, as long as he's not beating you and you have money, especially in Western culture, right? There's a huge piece of that. Like, well, you have the nice car or you have the nice house, or um, I think also the social norms. I think I've told this to you guys before of the big push in like the 70s and 80s around two-parent households and the amount of propaganda, and I call it propaganda because there has been research since then to show, as I've said before, that children really only need one securely attached adult to thrive. Um, and if you go look at a lot of that research around the importance of two-parent households, a lot of it is funded by religious, you know, protect the family institutions. And I'm very like aware of this because I went to BYU, I was Mormon, and I actually got my degree in home and family living. And so I took classes all about the family and got to see how much there is a lot of biased research done by individuals who want to prove that um, you know, two-parent married households are what's best. And granted, I do want you guys to understand like the demographic of who I'm talking to on this podcast, for most of you, getting divorced does not mean your children are not gonna have food, right? It's very different when you start talking about um a demographic where yes, getting divorced means being your children being at much, much higher risk for a whole bunch of other factors. The majority of the women that I end up coaching and that are listening to my podcast, that is not the case. So I do want to caveat that by saying, like, yes, there are a lot of statistics out there, and those are absolutely real for a lot of people. Typically, that's not the women listening to my podcast. Also, the social norms of like women don't want and need sex like men do. And um, as I spoke about in the last episode, the social norm that like what should be considered human traits are gendered in our culture and made into like male and female traits. So you have to understand all of those cultural aspects when you are, you can't just think about affairs and I mean you can, but I don't recommend it. You can't just think about affairs without understanding all of these other parts that influence and direct the dialogue around affairs. So, with that said, I want to provide a different perspective for those of you, especially that have husbands who are really mad at you for having an affair. And this goes back to a lot of what I enumerated in the last episode of like, if there's anything for them to be mad about, I believe it is to be mad at the culture that made both of you believe that the emotionally starved relationship, or um, for some of you, the relationship where there was no sexual chemistry, that that would be enough for her. I coached a woman today who, you know, got married to her husband young from the societal pressures of like, well, all my friends are getting married. She got married to like 21 or 22, had never had sex with anybody else, came from a religious background, had no idea how important chemistry and sexual attraction was for her, and married him. You know, he's stable, he's gonna, he's probably gonna be a good dad. And I would offer like those things worked really well for the first, and by really well, I mean, they worked well. She got what she wanted of somebody who's stable and a good dad for 20 years, but what she also got was having sex with someone that she's not interested in or um sexually attracted to. And now, 20 years later, like I've said before, you guys wake up and you realize this is actually a really big deal for me. So going back again to this idea that I am seeing women becoming whole people. What I notice the most is women are really starting to step up into their masculine. They are willing to, like, they're realizing they can make moves, they can make changes. Um, we're realize we can help ourselves and those we love. And we're really no longer content with partners who are just one-dimensional, who just need us to play a role, to complement them, or are playing a role themselves. You know, I think in this dynamic of the person I was coaching today, her husband is actually the stay-at-home partner in the in the relationship. And just such a good example of like he kind of slipped into that role and stopped growing and and developing and becoming a fully dimensional whole human and and not embracing that dynamic piece of being human that I of like what I th where I think humans are evolving. Like, I think we're evolving into a more dynamic individual in our species. And when your spouse just needs you, like they need to depend on you for, let's say, emotional processing, or they just need you to be there so that they can feel good about themselves, or they need you so that they can walk around not having to think of themselves as divorced, it's just not enough anymore. And women are brave enough now. And thank God with the um, I'm not gonna say resources, with the rights, the rights that we have at this point in time, um, women are brave enough to make the leap more often. So if that is the case, what I am seeing is more um more women who are brave enough to have affairs and more women who are brave enough to get divorced. Now, one of the things I wanted to play with expounding on in this episode that I thought would be really interesting and that a lot of you would probably benefit from is talking about the five biggest mistakes that I see husbands make when they find out about an affair. And I'm laughing because I just can't wait to dive into this. And I also want to say these five things, not only do I see these when husbands find out about affairs or you know, but I also see it when they um when you end up coming to them and telling them you want a divorce. So just know if you are not having an affair, if that does not apply to you, but you're considering divorce, these are still gonna be really applicable for potentially happening if you decide to um get divorced and tell him. So I'm saving the biggest one for last, but all the rest are still like uh really um significant. So the biggest, the first biggest mistake that I see is husbands who, when they find out their wife has had an affair, they react by moving into this like desperate love bombing. I will try to do everything, anything you want me to do, even if it's not genuinely who they are, what they enjoy, or um what they want out of life. Like these are men who will literally lay down and take it. Like they are so desperate to stay divorced that they are like, tell me anything you want, um, I will do it. These are the men who like start all of a sudden running around and they're like fixing everything and they're doing everything and they're taking care of everything, all the things that for you know, 15, 20 years now you've been complaining about, they all of a sudden up and want to change. And um what I've seen is contrary to what they think this is gonna do, which is you're gonna be like, oh my God, yay, thank you. I just I am so happy now. That was exactly what I wanted. It kind of creates this disgust because you're seeing how little this person, I don't know what the word is that I would use, but I want to say like how little they know or value themselves enough to really take a more balanced, like deeply connected approach of okay, we got some shit to work through, let's figure this out, um, without completely like self-abandoning. So I want to provide some examples of what I'm talking about. So, in one of my clients, we definitely saw this um when her affair came out of, you know, all of a sudden, like up and quitting a career that he has like loved and worked towards for years and years and years. Um, not quitting his career, but like changing his work hours drastically, which she'd been asking him to do for years leading up to this. All of a sudden he does that. And at this point, it it actually backfires because now she's gotten to the point where she's so like over him and not wanting to be around him, that him all of a sudden being like, Oh, well, you've always wanted me to be at home more now, so now I'm gonna be at home, actually has like made things way worse. And I think that's just such a great example of like, dude, it's not really like, guys, it is not about you just, oh, I wasn't doing that. Now I need to do that. Do you feel how that's like so fucking childish and immature to be like, oh, I'm in trouble. Um, I didn't clean my room. So now if I clean my room, my mom's gonna be happy with me. No, no, she's way more complex than that. You just all of a sudden spending all this time with her when she doesn't feel emotionally safe with you or like she can be vulnerable, that's actually not gonna fix things. In another instance, you know, I've seen a husband who, like, okay, so finds out about the affair and you can tell he's not okay with it, but ultimately he knows if he's not okay with it, they're probably gonna get divorced. So he moves into a space of like, um, okay, well, like, I'm okay with it as long as you tell me whenever you go. Like, um like once again, this like what it created in their relationship was this dynamic of like father-daughter, you know. Now she's got this husband who's kind of like a dad who she has to tell when she's going out with her affair partner every time. Like, no, no. This is very different than like when you're actively both choosing to be in an open marriage, okay? Instead of someone who's like, okay, well, I'm gonna let you do that, but you just need to be honest with me. Like, you have to be. I think what I keep seeing so much in these, in this specific instance where I'm, you know, this very first mistake is these men who just become very like, I'm so afraid of divorce that I will literally do whatever without really stopping and asking myself, is that truly the life I want to live? And guess what, guys? She can sense that. She can like smell that the disingenuous, the disingenuity, I think that might be the word. Um, basically, you're being disingenuous and she can tell. And it ends up, what I've seen, driving her even further away. She loses respect for you. She loses desired. I mean, I've seen a lot of women who are like, I don't want to have to teach you what to do to be connected with me. That's not what she's asking. She's not saying, yeah, you know what I'd really love is to be in a relationship where I hand you a list of all the things I want you to do and you do them. No, typically they're leaving because they want deeper connection. They want soul connection. Handing you a list and you doing all those things isn't gonna give her that. So I typically also see this reaction from men who have been very I'm trying to think if this actually like really applies, but I think it does. For men who have been very, like they haven't needed as much emotional connection in the relationship, or they've been content to kind of sit back and let things ride, or they've thought things were okay in the marriage, and now they're acting like totally shocked, which in reality, typically for most of you, like you have been at least giving them some indication. Like the woman I coached today, she said, like for years now, like they haven't had sex in at least three years straight. She never gets undressed in front of him. She doesn't hug him, she doesn't touch him. And yet when she brings up to him, like, I want to get divorced, he's like, What? What do you mean? She's like, dude, the writing is on the wall. They just haven't wanted to see it because the reality is what they want most is to just stay married. Whether it's like actually good for them or not, they just want to stay married. Beware, be very wary of this response. Okay. Husbands who are like, I will just do anything or everything to keep you. And why this is so hard, because is you can start to feel guilty because on the surface it looks really good, but you have to trust that if it feels really shitty and disingenuine, that's not what you're wanting. So don't get seduced by it's like him showing up with a gift and saying, like, here, I got you a gift, and it's not the gift you wanted. Just because it's a gift doesn't mean it's the gift you wanted. Okay, the second mistake that I see husbands making is uh, and this is a big one, they find out about the affair and they can become very manipulative and controlling. And they believe, they buy into this idea that because you've had an affair, they now have a right to walk all over your personal rights. Um, and this is where I've had clients where I am like, look, he's legally not allowed to track your car. He's not allowed to put devices in your purse to try and track where you're going. He is not allowed to stalk you. Just because someone is married to you does not mean they get to track or stalk you. That is illegal. And for and I I was gonna say, for some reason, no, it for some strange reason called the fucking patriarchy, and that women have been treated as property in marriage for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, prior to this amazing time that we're in now. There are men out there who seem to think I have a right because you're married to me, and because you had an affair, I get to do whatever I want. Um, I would also say, you know, this this also like bleeds over into the um, you know, when I say manipulative and controlling, trying to emotionally control you and really using, you know, I see this a lot with like narcissistic husbands who think they have a right to really um tear you down emotionally, to beat you up mentally, and that you deserve this because you had an affair. So all you know, all bets are off, basically. Remember, ladies, and I just keep going back to like, oh my god, if this person wasn't married to you, would you ever put up with this behavior from a normal person? No. If this was someone you were dating, you would be like, getting a restraining order now, right? But because you're married to him, you excuse it. Don't do that. Okay, third uh biggest mistake I see men making, husbands making, when they find out there's been an affair, is getting impatient. So this is when they start to be like, like they found out about the affair, now they're showing up, and there's this kind of entitled feeling of like, I'm finally trying. Like I'm showing up and you're not immediately responding. Like, why aren't you, why aren't you um, yes, you were upset that I wasn't showing up in the marriage previously, but now I am, and why can't you just let that go and let us, you know, move forward? Why can't you be grateful that now it's I'm you know, and and also this feeling of like the entitled feeling of like, well, you had an affair, you should be so grateful that I'm willing to take you back. Do you see it? And to this, I'm like, dude, like if your husband does this, like we are a long way off from this being a good marriage because once again, the affair is just a symptom. So if that's where we're at, then the trust was broken a long time before that. And him showing up and just doing all the things now without the emotional connection underneath it, like it's like imagine someone getting in trouble or or getting caught at school for bullying you. And then only after they've gotten in trouble and like shit's hit the fan, do they want to be your friend? Like, of course, you're gonna be suspicious of this. Of course, it's gonna take a while to build a trust that was like not there to begin with. So, and I hope you're seeing too in like all of these mistakes they make, they typically like I feel like these mistakes are pretty typical of childish reactions, right? To feel the impatience of, well, why can't you just get over it? Or you should be grateful that I'm taking you back. Like they are not acknowledging the complexity of what 20 years of a bad marriage does. Um, so if you've got a a partner that's being impatient with you, I want you to just yeah, you managed to be patient for 20 years, and um most of them I I've seen can't be patient for like, you know, more than six months to a year post-something like this. The fourth biggest mistake I see, and I really want to, I'm really glad I included this one because I'm seeing it more and more lately, is husbands who um, and I don't think I see this so much in affairs now that I'm really thinking about it, but I'm still gonna talk about it, is um they just dig even deeper into the stuff that was already there. So I would say like this is the buffering piece. These are husbands who like maybe let's say alcoholism has been a problem in the marriage, and when they find out about the affair or that you're gonna divorce them, they instead of like wake up, call, go get some help, they just drink more. Uh, like I have a client right now who um just announced to her husband that they're getting divorced and addressed specifically that his alcoholism has been a huge issue. And like literally the next day he shows up with a giant bottle of whiskey and yet is continuing to talk to her and be like, Can we go to marriage counseling? Um, like, is there someone else? I I want to work on this. Like, dude, what the fuck? Like, uh. Um, and then the like the other piece I wanted to include in this that I've seen is is husbands who threaten suicide. Who, and these are husbands who are typically not so much on like the narcissistic end of the spectrum, but more of like a codependent and maybe dealing with like depression and their own self-esteem issues. And in that moment, they start talking about how, you know, if you leave them, they're gonna commit suicide or they're never gonna be good enough, or no one's ever gonna love them like you do. Dude, this for any men listening, this is a huge mistake. Like, there is nothing more, I mean, I don't want to say there's nothing less attractive than this, but this is like pretty bad when I hear this with my clients of husbands who are like, I'm I'm I'm gonna commit suicide if you leave. I'm like, come on now. What like that is a a pretty rough level of control to put, to be willing to put on someone else that's trying to leave so that they can be happy and have a healthy life, and you're trying to put your, which is ultimately a hundred percent on you. Like, if you if and I hope for those of you that are experiencing this, because I know I've met like multiple of you in the last month that have had this exact scenario come up. That is a hundred percent in his lane. That is not your job. Someone threatening suicide, you know, when we when I've looked at it on the face of it with my clients, I'm like, that comes from way more than just a marriage and someone leaving you. That often comes from childhood trauma that you haven't addressed and you've let fester for years and years and years that's damaged your self-esteem, and then you've had to buffer from it with drugs or sex or alcohol or um overworking or disconnection. It it is unfair and it is wrong to threaten a partner who wants to leave their a marriage with committing suicide. And um absolutely in that moment, I hope for those of you, if you are facing that, it is encouraging them to get help and potentially notifying, you know, their friends and family of what's happening because that is way bigger than you. And that is not something that you can heal, and that is not ultimately not your responsibility to be the one that stays to keep him from doing that, nor is it guaranteed, right? Now, with the fifth and final one, this is the one that I see probably about I would say probably with the first one, the like love bombing, I'll do whatever you want. And then this one, these are the two most common. So I saved this one for the end because I just feel like this is a really, really big one, and I really want to call it out. So the final mistake that I see is when husbands freak out about the affair and they use it to entirely like shame and blame you while completely disregarding their own work. And I just think this is the hugest example of not taking responsibility, which is like that's being an adult. An adult is someone who looks at the situation and goes, Uh, yeah, it takes two to tango. How have I not been showing up in this marriage? In what ways have I also contributed to this end result? The husbands that just show up and are like, I have been so wronged. I can't believe that you would do this. They make it all about them because typically these husbands have like self-esteem issues. They need you there constantly stroking their ego and making them feel better. So you having an affair isn't so much about you being happy as like an affront to their sense of self. Um, and they use it to complete this, to create this whole like giant drama around how wronged they've been, instead of really taking responsibility for their own side of the street of not healing their own trauma, not doing internal work, to actually be the partner that their wife would want to be in love with. And to this, I just say, you know, to those men, you cannot just throw scraps at a problem in today's day and age and have it work anymore. These men often have like a deep sense of entitlement that somehow it should have been enough. But here's the reality: women want realness, they want authenticity, they want men who are willing to go and look at their fucking shadows and own them. And why I saved this for the end is because this is the biggest indicator to me of like, yeah, this is not a marriage that's gonna work or be able to heal post this affair, because he is completely caught up in victimhood and in no way taking responsibility for his side. So my answer to all of these issues, to all of these mistakes I see men making, whether it's from finding out about an affair or realizing their wife is getting a divorce, is you know, told them we're headed for this. Guys, two things that if you would do would change everything. First, admit you have a problem as well. Okay, admit there's two of us in this marriage, and realize you are probably fucked up from your childhood and have your own trauma that is preventing you from showing up in ways your partner needs and is probably causing you to not hear what she's saying or not understand what she needs. And once you do that, go be the grown-ass man that gets help. Show initiative, go find the therapist, go find the coach, go to the men's retreat. I don't care what you choose, but go choose it and do not do the other, like another huge mistake I see, which is men who are like, can we go to counseling? Can we go to marriage therapy? Like, too little, too late, dude. Now you want to go work on it with her. She's like, uh-uh. If you were to show up and be like, I'm gonna go do my own work and actually go find someone and go do that work, like, you know what? My friend's been talking about a huge ayahuasca retreat down in Costa Rica that changed his life. We obviously are not happy. I can tell that. I hear you, you want a divorce. I'm gonna go do that. I'm gonna go um go to this men's, I'm gonna start looking up men's retreats. I'm gonna start looking up men's coaches, and I'm gonna go find one on my own, not one that she's had to look up for you, and I'm gonna hire them to help me. So, as you guys can tell, don't even get me started on what I want to do in the realm of men and and and what I see in that area. This is just like a little piece of what I see lacking in in so many men and where they fuck up the chances that they have to really show. And I I hate to say this because I I wanted to say to like show who they really are, but I'm gonna drop into this piece of like, I think what this is reflecting back is that this is just so much bigger than the microcosm of one marriage or one affair. And I said this in the first episode that this is a huge movement in our society of us redefining what is okay and isn't okay in an in romantic relationships, in marriages. And so I'd love to say, you know, I want them to show who they really are, but the sad thing is we have had hundreds of years of inequality and abuse towards women in marriages that as a society we have kept hidden by making it seem like women don't want anything more than what we've said is okay for them. And unfortunately, a lot of men have been conditioned and benefited from that. And so they have not taken the initiative to hear what their partners are saying and make those changes. And um that's you know, the disappointing moment is when it comes out and instead of leaning in, they lean back. They fall back on like boo-hoo is me. I'm so sad she had an affair on me. I'm never gonna survive without you, or I hate you. How could you do this to me? It's all about them, all about them. And thank, you know, thank God we live in the time that we do because my heart breaks, as I've seen how much this goes on in marriages, for the generations of the women before me that had no recourse for emotionally starved marriages. Like, can we just take a moment, women, to feel gratitude that we have the rights we have, that we can leave our marriages, there, that there is, you know, no-fault divorces, that we can leave and start our own businesses, that we can have our own mortgages and our own credit cards and our own names. And I think sometimes it's really helpful to stop and just feel that gratitude that you even have a choice. Because I know a lot of you get caught up in like, and yes, the the pain and the like fear around am I gonna leave or am I not? But let's just take a second to be like, you have a choice. You get to even play with the idea of stay or go and not in a like, I'm gonna go and have my children taken from me and never see them again, or I'm gonna go and um, you know, not be able to have a bank account without my brother signing for me. So all of this comes back to this deep idea I have that is like if more men would own up to their trauma and be honest, they would realize, and if there's any men listening to this, I really want you to hear what I'm about to say. They would realize that patriarchy has fucked them over too. Because it has given them all a one-dimensional realm where they cannot be full emotional humans either. And when men start realizing this, when they start realizing that the advantages they received in patriarchy came with costs, costs that are actually huge. And I'm gonna break them down a little bit more in this episode, a few of them, not all of them, but some of the ones I see most prevalently. I think we would start making progress on this issue. I think you would actually have marriages that can recover because you would have men who are actually coming to the table going, I had a part in this, I can see how it's hurting my partner. I can also see how it's hurting me. And I want to do whatever it takes to make space for both of us. So I wanted to illustrate this a little bit of how much patriarchy has fucked over men as well, by talking about, you know, I remember dating a partner who had been raised very religious, very like good old boy. Boys don't feel, boys are tough, boys play sports, boys are this. And when we first started dating, I remember him telling me, like, I was the first person he'd ever felt like truly seen by. Um, the first person he'd ever felt like he could be emotional with, maybe even the first woman he'd ever like cried with. And I loved getting to be that for him for the first like three to five months of our marriage. And not of our marriage, poof, sorry, of dating him. But ultimately, long term, that was just too much for me to hold, having to always be the only safe emotional space for him. Um, and it really broke my heart when we broke up because ultimately the reason behind that was like his trauma was too much, and I needed him to go get help, and he wouldn't. He would not go get support. And this is a direct piece of the patriarchy, right? Telling men like the whole like tough it out, you need to be strong, you don't need help, and therapies for you know, women and sissies and and men just all in general, like not being able to hold space for each other. That is a huge detriment to their mental health, to their ability to thrive as humans that they don't even understand. Like the costs of living. In a world where they don't get to be fully expressed either. So the answer is not, you know, for men, it's not to point fingers and to blame your wife and be upset with what is just like a consequence of the marriage you've been in right now, but instead to see the bigger picture here and start evolving and creating something new and catching the vision of like, I want to leave something better and healthier to my children of what relationships in marriage are. And to do that, you have to be willing to admit I'm also not truly happy. You have to be willing to think outside the box for men as well. And I'm going to talk about that a little bit later, especially in relation to sex, how the patriarchy has really fucked men over by telling them what you want is sex, when what I've seen is men are also hungry for deep, emotionally connected relationships and sex as well. So last week I mentioned that like how I think we change this individually first is by focusing on these three new ways to orient yourself in your life as a human. Okay. These three new things that I want to put forward as like the values that you can consider making the top priorities in your life and orienting yourself towards those. You know, here I've been talking about like us being able to change this in relationship, but ultimately it has to start with you. So the first one is trusting and and I said these last week, but I'm going to repeat them. The first one is trusting and choosing your inner knowings first. The second is being full of yourself. And the third is choosing growth. So I just want to dive in briefly into each of those to kind of expound on them. So the first one, trusting and choosing your inner knowings first. Why this is so important is because everyone in the entire world is just sharing their fucking thoughts. Yes, there are people who want to stand up and like in religion say, This is from God and this is God's world. But here's the thing: like, this is God's word. No one knows the real truth. They don't. They're all just throwing out ideas. And as a coach, I know that because I realize like everything is just people's thoughts. So if that is the case, it's so important to be able to hear and follow your own inner knowings because ultimately you're the only one that truly has the compass for yourself and where your life is meant to go. Everything else is just a thought or an idea or a story from somebody else. And to truly find your path, you have to know that resonance inside of you when you hear something that sounds true and be able to follow it. So that's the first one. The second one is being full of yourself. And why I say this is so important, I would especially say this for, and I'm gonna caveat these, like, these are the three things that I think are most important for women. And I'm gonna say being full of yourself because I think this is an aspect where the feminine has been hurt by the patriarchal ideas that women need to put others first. When in reality, what that does is it just leads you to burnout and like this nasty, caustic resentment that builds inside of you. And a lot of like doing shit that others aren't even asking us to do, and ultimately like missing out on truly sharing our gifts with the world. So as the feminine, you want to focus on being more full of yourself. Now, if there are men listening to this episode, what I would say is because the patriarchy has already emphasized and really pushed men being very full of themselves for hundreds of years, their task is to drop down into being more aware of others, being more tuned in and emotionally available and sensitive to what's going on around them. So notice those two different pieces depending on, you know, who's listening to the episode. And then the final one is choosing growth. And this is where I'm gonna say, you know, for all of you that are like, look, I really love my kids. I'm really worried about what divorce is gonna do to them. I wanna say, like, look, if you actually love your kids and you want them to be happy, then work through your fucking trauma. Staying married is not gonna guarantee that your kids are gonna actually be happy or that they're gonna have marriages that are actually gonna be good. But you doing the hard work of looking at your trauma and trying to heal that, that actually makes a difference. And that is choosing growth. That is prioritizing growth over the perfect picture or the perfect house or the life that everybody thinks is so pretty, but feels really shitty on the inside. Now, all of this is leading to this idea I want to present to you guys of creating relationships that are based on this word of mutuality. And I remember when this concept was first introduced to me, trying to think what book it was in. I may have to put this in the show notes and do some a little bit deeper research on this. But I remember being just like, oh my God, this is so good, so powerful, this idea. Because what patriarchy does is it creates patriarchy is based on power over dynamics, okay, where there's always someone in power and someone underneath. And we see this in marriages that were built in patriarchal societies, where there is like someone who's the boss and someone who, and it's definitely usually the masculine is the boss, and the feminine gets to be the subservient one. Now, mutuality is a relationship that is based on respect, that is based on like we are equals, and we get to show up in this relationship as equals. I value your voice, you value mine. There's no like pre-assumed assumptions around like, which I would say, you know, in patriarchal marriages are the whole like, well, I provide money, so you provide me with sex, right? No, in mutual relationships, it's it's a lot about open communication. It's about seeing each other on the same footing, eye to eye. And I really believe that is what most of us are wanting in relationships in the future. And I'm gonna break this down a little bit later in the episode by explaining um from one of my favorite books that I've just um started reading, like a relationship that so many women are obsessed with right now. And it's because it's one based in mutuality. Now, I just wanna like say we are doing a huge thing here. Okay. Like, and it's okay that for us as humans, this is gonna be a rocky road changing what we believe about marriage, because we have been brainwashed for centuries. And especially for men, this is gonna be uncomfortable because when you've been on top, equality ends up feeling like oppression. Let me just say that again. When you've been on top, equality feels like oppression. That's why so many men right now with this changing world are like floundering and not able to get their footing underneath them. Because when others get to be equal with you, that actually feels like oppression. And this is why so many men are like, I don't know who I am, because if there's nobody around just telling me I'm awesome because I exist, who am I? So um, this is where I want to dive into also enumerating like what I was talking about earlier that men have been sold this bill of good by the patriarchy, this bill of goods by the patriarchy, that being on top because you're dominating everybody else is great. And that like all you need is sex and a happy wife and children. And I want to offer that there is an entirely new level of connection available when you are in a relationship of true mutuality rather than power over, or one that is just about being complimentary to each other. And what I mean by this is like a lot of men think that what they like, they think that what they want is sex. And that's because that's like all they've ever known. But if you've never had sex with a woman who truly adores you and really wants it, you have no fucking clue what is possible. Like, and this goes like I my thought around this is like, you know, when you treat so many men treat women like an object. And when you treat someone like an object, you're going to get back the emotions of an object. But when you treat a woman like the incredibly complex and beautifully dynamic creature that she is, and you're interested in that, genuinely, you get to access, she will let you into these deep, untapped reservoirs of gorgeous complexity and breathtaking expression. And this is the stuff of romance books and Tantra and Kundalini. Like, this is when a woman lets you not just have sex with her, but actually fuck her soul. And for those of you that have experienced this, this is the most powerful source of energy in the entire universe. It is incredible. Um so where this led me, like I said earlier, I was gonna talk about a book that I've been reading, is this book, A Court of Thorns and Roses. And I know those of you I love because like in this moment, there's gonna be a bunch of you that have read it that are gonna be like, oh my God, yes, yes, yes. And then there's gonna be a bunch of you that have never even heard of it that are gonna be like, what? And you're like probably on Amazon right now looking it up, which I cannot recommend enough. I think if you have not read this series, absolutely put it on your list and go do it. And here's why. So I at this point though, I am gonna say, I can't, I'm just gonna say big spoiler alert. So for those of you that haven't read it yet, do not keep listening. Okay. I want you to stop and then go to the show notes, which will be linked at the bottom of this episode. This is so fun. I feel like we're playing like a hide and seek game or something. Um, but I will in the show notes, I'll tell you where to fast forward to. Okay. I'll give you a timestamp of where to stop and then where to start. And I want you to instead go get the books and start reading because you'll have to get through book one and two to understand what I'm about to share. And I don't want to spoil it for you. It is the most amazing, fucking mind-blowing thing to go through this journey with this um Farah, the main character in the book, to go through this journey with her and understand the relationship piece that I'm about to talk about. So um, go get the books, start reading. You'll understand why everyone is so obsessed with these books because Sarah J. Mass, the author, has totally written The Relationship of the Future. So, for those of you that haven't read, stop, go find the timestamp, come back, you can listen to this section later after you've read. Now, for the rest of you, my fellow Avatar besties, let's vibe for a second and totally geek out on how this is the relationship of the future. So, how this book illustrates the relationship of the future. So, if we go back to book one, like Farah represents this wounded feminine, okay? She's she absolutely is the wounded divine feminine. She's like heavy in her masculine, um, she's needing to take care of everybody. She doesn't know how to like receive to drop in, and she falls in love, as we all know, in the first book, with a very wounded masculine. Okay. Um, we don't know this at the time, right? But Tamlin is so the perfect example of a man who is not fully expressed. Yes, he can show up, yes, he can fuck her good. But and it looks all pretty and nice as we go through it, right? Like, oh, they love each other. Oh, they're willing to go to such extremes to be with each other. And like, oh, love prevails, and she now has someone to take care of her, and she can be in her feminine all the time and leave the masculine stuff up to him. But when we get into book two, what do we start to realize, y'all? It is driving her fucking insane to be pigeonholed into such a stereotypical feminine um role, right? She's gotta wear the dresses, she's gotta pretend, she's gotta sit in the house, she gets to paint, she doesn't have to lift a finger for anything. When what is she wanting? She's wanting to go out and do all the things that were like a huge aspect of her personality previously because Tara wants to be an entire dynamic human. She wants all of her yin and her yang. She doesn't want to just be trapped in a feminine role. But what does Tamlin need? He wants the power over complimentary dynamic that we see in the patriarchy of I need you to stay home. I need to not worry about you. I need to take care of you. If you leave, I haven't dealt with my childhood trauma of my whole family being killed, and I'm so afraid of losing you that I'm now gonna traumatize you to protect myself. Do you all see it? It's so amazing. Okay. I mean, he literally goes so far as to lock her in a house and think that and thinks that that's okay. Like violates her human rights to freedom and thinks it's okay. Another thing that I see so much in their relationship is he doesn't help her through her trauma, right? These nights where she's waking up. I mean, they've just been through horrific things together in the um under the mountain. And yet he lets her get up and cry and acts like it's not even happening. Like, just the most beautiful example of like wounded feminine, wounded masculine. This is not working. Versus, and I am just like my whole body is lighting up at the thought of it, versus Rassant. Y'all, do you see how he represents a man who is truly dynamic? He is complex, he is complicated, he is all the different spectrum. And this word dynamic, this is the word I'm going to use going forward to represent a human, what it what it is when a human is securely attached to themselves and able to flow with all the aspects of their masculine, feminine, yin and yang within them. And you know, I hate calling it masculine and feminine because I think it just perpetuates that gender stereotype, but it's like the only words we have for it right now. So Rassand gets Farah, right? He sees her. He like truly, truly sees her. He gets her. He's not interested in controlling her. He is all about mutuality. He um, I mean, I love that moment where he like makes her his equal. There's never been like a high lady before, and she becomes it. They are a hundred percent a team. He never makes, he never manipulates or tries to like force her into doing stuff she doesn't want to. He understands they are stronger together than apart, and he wants her to be her strong, assertive self. And he like he understands she's kick ass and he respects that. So I wanted to say to you guys, this is not just the stuff of fairy tales and romance books, okay? Because in my relationship right now, I feel like I am experiencing this, and y'all, it is insanely fulfilling to be able to be with a partner who is able to do this dance of flowing in and out of the yin and yang with me. So, what I mean by that is like there are days, you know, sometimes there are days where we're meeting each other in our masculine, you know, like we're both feeling fiery and fierce. And then there are some nights that um I need to be more in my feminine and I need him to kind of step up and be more of the masculine. And then what I love most of all with my partner is he sees my fiery masculine side, and he is not afraid to drop into the feminine and let me be in the masculine within our relationship. So it's this incredible like dance that we get to do with each other. And it has been so fulfilling for me to get to see and be able to express more of the entirety of who I am with him, rather than just being with someone who needs me to play a role to complement them. And I will tell you guys, it opens up so much more pleasure and play and possibility when you have someone that you can be all parts of yourself with. So, to kind of wrap this up, I want to say that like we have been duped for centuries about what it really means to be a human, and that um, and that it should be split into these two ideas of the masculine and feminine, and that women should be content with their role and what they want. And the reality is we're waking up and we're no longer willing to settle for the scraps that our mothers and our grandmothers were forced to scrap to settle for. And along with that is that marriage is changing and the world is changing, and all of us are having to like find our places within it now. And I want to advocate for an age of mutuality in relationship, an age of wholeness and expansion as individuals, of not having to play roles and caricatures, but to have depth and realness and beauty and complexity and dynamic expression of ourselves. So once again, you know, I want to come back to that piece of like, is it possible? For years it was only a theory for me, but in dating my current partner, I am seeing that like it absolutely is possible. And especially when you're dating someone who has done their own work to be securely attached to themselves. And there will be these waves of death preceding this birth of a new way of viewing marriage and relationships. And what I want to offer, especially if we're talking to, you know, if I'm talking to a man who's listening to this message is like to this podcast episode, is those waves of death, like you can sign up for those waves of death ahead of time to like, okay, I'm gonna go do the work to have the self-deaths that are needed to be different in this marriage, or you can get swept up in for some of you, the inevitable death that's going to come of your marriage and your relationship because you're not changing and you're not willing to go do the work. I am so proud of those of us that are taking the paths less taken, that are being brave enough to communicate and advocate and to keep speaking up, even when it falls on death, deaf ears, to still step forward into the unknown of going for what you deserve most, which is true partnership, truly being seen and deeply being known and loved. And I just want to like say to all of you own your truth. Like you are the ones creating the future. You are the ones giving us a different reality, a better reality for our children in the future. And it's so Important that you do this work now because what I've seen, as I said, there's these huge waves of death happening right now. And by death, I mean, you know, the dying of old ideas, old ways of viewing marriage, viewing ourselves. Y'all, if this is happening right now, it is going to be even more intense when our children get up to the age where they are having relationships. And if we are not setting the example for them right now of this new way of thinking and being and showing them mothers who are complex and have desires and are not just completely giving themselves up to take care of their husband and their children, they are not going to be prepared for what it's going to be like in the next 20 years. They are going to end up being more casualties of this change versus us waking up to it now and preparing them by making the changes in our own marriages. So the final piece I just want to like sh, you know, as we're closing out this giant, beautiful discussion around affairs, is realizing what is okay for others, what others think is like the standard and what you should be happy with does not have to be okay with you. If there is a disparity between your wants and what you need most and what is actually happening in your marriage, you absolutely have a right to want more. And just like I just said, I think your right to want more is actually an evolutionary gift that is going to help humans because that is where we are headed. And in wanting more and bravely going for it, you are the one that changes reality for the collective and gives your children the gift of the foresight of what's coming. Kind of exciting when you think about it that way, right? All right, my lovelies. Woof. These were some of like my two all-time probably favorite episodes. I love talking about and seeing affairs from just such vastly different perspectives than I think are being shared out there at this time. I also wanted to just say and and totally give a plug right now for Quinn, my friend Quinn. We did an episode a couple episodes ago where you guys got to meet her. She is just crushing it right now on her podcast. And I love listening to her episodes. And she is just dropping truth bombs left, right, and center. So I'm gonna link her um podcast in the show notes as well. I know so many of you, right? Some weeks I just don't show up. There's not gonna be a new episode because I'm taking care of myself and I can't just always be putting out content, being a, you know, 6-2 manifestor in human design. That is not how I am built. I have to have a lot of rest. But I thought today, I was like, oh my God, I have to let them know about this because it's all divorce focused, and you guys, she's the perfect fit. I was like, between the two of us, y'all will be able to go nonstop. So highly recommend checking her um podcast out, giving it a listen. Quinn is my go-to person. We talk about everything. So you're gonna get a lot of incredible insights from her as well. I mean, she is the person when I am struggling, like she's the person that coaches me. She's the person I go to. So incredible resource for someone to be listening to who I deeply admire and love and has just really, really deep and powerful insights. Um, I think that's all for now. I miss y'all already. I'll see you guys on the next episode.