Total Innovation Podcast

5.Stephen Shapiro: Innovate where you Differentiate

• Wazoku Team

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Welcome to our podcast, where we dive deep into the world of innovation with the help of expert Stephen Shapiro. Stephen is a renowned innovation advisor who has dedicated his career to helping leaders and teams tackle complex business challenges and improve their innovation models and cultures.

After publishing his groundbreaking first book, "24/7 Innovation" in 2001, Stephen left Accenture to become a full-time innovation speaker and advisor. Since then, he has published six books, including his latest, "Pivotal", released in 2024, and "Invisible Solutions" in 2020. Stephen has spoken in 50 countries and works with major companies like 3M, P&G, Marriott, Nike, and Microsoft to enhance their innovation practices through keynotes and advisory services.

In our first episode, we chat with Aiden McCullen about total innovation—what it is, why it matters, and how to achieve it. Check it out here.

For more resources and insights on innovation, be sure to explore related tools like the Wazoku platform, which supports the innovation processes Stephen champions.

Visit Stephen's website for more information, or connect with him on LinkedIn.

Brought to you by The Infinite Loop – Where Ideas Evolve, Knowledge Flows, and Innovation Never Stops.

Our guest today innovated his way into innovation. Halfway through his fifteen year tenure at Accenture, while coleading the company's business process reengineering practice focused around business efficiency, he realized he no longer wanted to be responsible for people losing their jobs. So he did exactly the opposite by building Accenture's thriving twenty thousand person process and innovation practice focused on growth and job creation. Since then, he's gone on to write seven books, has become a hall of fame speaker, and so much more. He cultivates innovation by showing leaders and their teams how to approach, tackle, and solve their business challenges. He's able to see what others cannot, opportunities to improve innovation models, and the cultures that support them. And so without further ado, Steven Shapiro, welcome to the podcast. Hey. Good to see you, Simon. Good to see you too. Look. We've known each other for some time, and there's plenty we could talk about. But for today, as I just mentioned, you've written seven books, and one of them, your seventh, which is called Pivotal, creating stability in an uncertain world, just launched. So first of all, congratulations on book number seven. Thank you. And I think, you know, I've been I've been reading this, and thank you for sharing sharing a copy with me, whilst I waited for my pre order copy to turn up in the post ahead of today. What I what struck me about it, and I followed you very generously teasing and sharing bits of the creation of this book online as as as as you were writing it, is that pivotal takes a somewhat contrarian view on innovation focusing on what's now, as you put it, before getting on to what's next. So could you start with just telling us a little bit to the background of the book? Why is it called pivotal, and what do you hope your readers will take away from it? Sure. So we we called it pivotal, and and I'll tell you, titles are the most difficult part of a book in my opinion. Writing them, you're selling them, that's easy compared to a good title. And you know with Pivotal what what I realized was is in in particular during the pandemic but even prior to that organizations were so focused on changing and shifting and the pandemic hit and then all of a sudden like well we can't go to a restaurant so we need to change the way we interact with our customers and well it's not safe to fly or stay in hotels so what are we going to do to make it safe? And it was just in the year twenty twenty pivot was the word of the year and it hasn't stopped. And then you have supply chain issues and you have inflationary challenges, and then now you've got AI. There are more opportunities than ever. And so when I worked with my clients over the past, you know, four, five, six years in particular, I saw almost fear in their eyes. I mean, they were, like, uncertain what they should do next because when there are thousands of opportunities the reality is many of them are distractions and so I wanted to find a way of helping companies figure out what's most important to their organization so they have perfect clarity on where to invest so that this spinning out of control, will stop and that's really the the essence of being pivotal is the definition of pivotal is you are of crucial importance. That is your customers couldn't survive without you. Your employees just couldn't do without you. So when you're pivotal you're not pivoting, you're actually providing as much deep value as you possibly can. So that's sort of the essence of the book and how it came about. Amazing. We started this whole podcast season off, and, the podcast is is called Total Innovation with Aidan McCullen, and we explored with Aidan the roots of my thinking around Total Innovation in terms of sports and business coming together. It feels like and I've seen some of some of your online stuff around this, that there's a bit of a sports analogy in, in your thinking here around the pivot. Do you wanna do you wanna talk a little bit to that for our Total Innovation podcast listeners? Sure. So, I live in Orlando, Florida which is the home of, Mickey Mouse and other great theme parks, but it also is the home of our team, the Orlando Magic. And I've had the great opportunity of working with them over the years. And as I was writing this book, what I realized was when you watch a basketball player pivot, basically what it is is about a foot moving around in circles. But what most people don't realize is that although most eyes are focused on the foot that's moving it's the changes the shifts when we talk about pivoting it's about what's changing nobody's really ever looking at the foot that doesn't move. The foot that's planted. Without that foot you don't have a pivot you're just sort of meandering and what I've realized is most companies have focused way too much on the moving foot and not on the power of the planted foot and that's really this book is all around how can we figure out how to build a solid foundation, that planted foot for your organization, that gives you stability, gives you clarity, but at the same time, does give you a powerful position to pivot from when needed, but you don't start with the pivot. You start with the planted foot. So how do you how do organizations start to figure out where that depth should be and where that planted foot is if they, if they don't already know. Like, what is the what is the starting point for getting your head around this, which sounds like a brilliant concept. And I do like this contrarian view of the world is crazy. Everything feels like it's trade. The trends are the trends are the trends, and they just keep moving and trying to figure out where to where to prioritize needs that stability. Right? But is it is it something that's abundantly obvious to people? You just gotta stop and think, or or what are the approaches that you explored in in figuring out what that what that planted foot looks like? So I I have a mantra that I've used for for actually decades now, and this book really is built around that. And it's innovate where you differentiate. The problem is most organizations don't have a clear understanding of their differentiator. They think a differentiator is being different and it is not. It's actually made up of five different components, which we could delve into if we want. And so the key is though, if we can get a hundred percent clarity on our differentiator and every person in our organization understands how they contribute to that differentiator, we get a major multiplier effect of the organization because we're investing in the areas of the business that have the greatest impact. So, when you innovate where you differentiate that is your planted foot that's where you start to double down and anything that's not a differentiator You find different strategies for those but you don't try to create the world's greatest payroll system unless you're a payroll company. And that one's obvious but there's so many examples of companies that are investing in technologies and processes and capabilities that aren't really going to be, worthwhile investments. Yeah. Because they're either they're not the right company to do it or it's not the right the right market for them to be operating in. What are those five components? Let's double click on that. I think it's worth, you teased on it a bit, so let's go there. So the first two d's so they're the five d's of differentiation. The first two d's are around today. So you need to make sure you have both of these working together in concert today. And so the first one is being distinctive, and distinctive is sort of the different and differentiated so it means it it is something which helps us stand out. It's something which we do that someone else doesn't do. And I want to be clear when I say distinctive it tends not to be distinctive products, services, or offerings, it tends to be distinctive capabilities that allow us to create new products, services, and offerings as needed. So we have to have distinctive capabilities. And then the second d is desirable. And desirable means that the world must want it and the organization must be benefiting from it also. And I see a lot of companies who get so focused on we're going to do something new and different but they're creating something the world doesn't value, they don't crave and that's not going to be something which is differentiated and in some cases they create things that are desirable but they're me too they're just an also ran and so they're not going to be standing out. So those first two are really fundamentally critical. And there's with the desirable part we go really really deep in the book. The the second two D's are around the future. So, if we're going to be distinctive today well what's going to keep us distinctive in the future is our ability to be durable. And that basically means our capabilities have to be something which someone couldn't replicate. If we develop something whether it's a product service or even a capability that others could replicate replicate quickly then we're basically doing the hard work for our competition and then in order to stay desirable in the future, we need to be dynamic which is the fourth d which is really about the pivoting. So once we have those first three d's, we have that planted foot and now we can be dynamic and change direction when needed. And the fifth d is all around leverage, which is how do we leverage our differentiated to get the greatest impact and there's two parts of that and it's all around being disseminated. You want to disseminate internally and you want to disseminate externally. The first thing is you need to make sure every person in your organization understands your differentiator and they understand how they personally contribute to the differentiator, how their team contributes to the differentiator. And once you have that and everybody inside the organization is doing that, then you wanna leverage it externally. You wanna disseminate your differentiator externally. There's a whole cool body of work we have around, that type of, concept. So I think it's it's not it's a nice structure. There's a lot of those there's a lot of good frameworks out there. So maybe we get a little bit practical. Right? I teased you in the in the intro to this. I like to try and get practical. So is there a real world example maybe we could drill into on these on these d's either from, you know, stuff that you've done or or, or other case studies that that sort of make it tangible to people? Sure. So we'll we'll just start off with distinctive because I think this is a it's a good place to start. And probably my favorite story, in fact, when people have read early releases of the book, this is one of their favorite stories, which is a company called Radio Flyer. Now here in the US they're known, for their, red wagons and it's the company's been around I think you know since like nineteen seventeen or something like that and they make wagons. They make little red wagons. It's it's a commodity item. Yet people love this company. They are thriving and the reason is because, Robert Pattinson who's like one of the great great great grandchildren whatever that is of the original founder, he goes around and he asks people about Radio Flyer and what's so amazing is every time and I've done the same thing when you ask people, hey did you have a radio flyer when you were younger? He said the first reaction is always the same they break out into a big smile and then they don't tell stories of the wagons but they tell stories about a magic carpet or it was a rocket ship and the wind blowing through their hair I just talked to somebody the other day who was actually one of their major centerpieces for their Christmas ornaments and they put lights on it and it was like these great memories and so for them they've realized their differentiator isn't the product it's rarely the product but it is actually their ability to bring smiles and joy to people and everything they do when they design their first store in Chicago It was all designed around the principle of how do we bring smiles at every moment when someone thinks about and interacts with the company? And they've just done it brilliantly. So I think that's, you know, one of my favorite stories about being distinctive because anybody can create a wagon but not everybody can create smiles. Which is nice actually because I think you even told it in the, you know, you told the Dee story in this way that I was envisaging that being the very foundational piece of all of this. Right? Like, you've gotta figure out what's that distinctive bit as you said. If you don't have that, the foundations are sand, and you can't you can't go anywhere else. Very helpful. So you mentioned earlier that that everyone needs to have to contribute to this, and, you know, this is very we're very philosophically aligned on this. Right? Innovation isn't a a job for an individual or a team. It's a it's a capability that exists. You know, I'm not even convinced it's a team, actually in in in most organizations. You may need a team for a period of time, but it's not necessarily a team for for for for forever. How how does everyone can contribute, and, you know, how do the what are the frameworks that we might be thinking around in terms of the the various roles that people can play in helping the business to set these foundations and then execute effectively on them as well. So there are some cultural indoctrinations that you might say that you need to do. I mean, people you need to communicate. You need to have conversations. You need to share. Like, unfortunately, what happens is when you think about a differentiator, it tends to be something which the top executives know but it's rarely communicated and cascaded down. So the first thing is to understand there are certain models that you use, to be able to cascade those. Now I'll give you one company which I really like, that has done this brilliantly for decades. And there's a company called Koch Industries, k o c h, out of Wichita, Kansas here in the United States. And they're in very complex and in many cases dangerous industries paper, pulp, petrochemicals, oil, gas and I remember them telling me a story a number of years back how, when they wanted to improve their safety record they were average, they weren't bad, but they safety was something they really valued, the first thought was, okay, we need more safety inspectors. This is gonna build exactly what you just said, Simon. But they realized more safety inspectors goes exactly the opposite of having to be part of everybody's responsibility. So they actually got rid of the safety department and said safety is now every person's responsibility. Each and every person in this organization is gonna be incentivized to either find safety issues or to rectify safety issues and you will get money and compensation and other things when you find those. And by shifting away from safety is the responsibility of a few people to safety is everyone's responsibility, they cut the number of accidents down by fifty percent the first year and they cut it down by an additional fifty percent the second year and they were one of the best in class safety records for their industries by using this mindset. And so we need to recognize that every person can contribute to safety, every person can contribute to innovation, And every person needs to understand how they contribute to their differentiator no matter what they do, no matter what department they are in. And I I've got some great stories about companies that have done some really cool things with parts of the business that you wouldn't think are differentiators, but they've actually made a huge difference. Which I which I which might be worth drilling into actually, but I was gonna some of this narrative led me off into a into a sort of mind, process around language, which I think you and I probably chewed over in the past as well. But safety is something that everyone can you know, I say the word safety to you. I say it to my seven year old daughter. She knows what it means. I say the word innovation to her or to lots of people, and it's it's not always well understood. Right? And so, you know, I do like the concept of this differentiator, but, again, it's quite a hard thing for lots of people to get their heads around. Right? That and that distinctive piece has to come from the top. It has to come from from the leadership. So how do you see that how do you see that playing out both in terms of helping people to understand what it is that is expected of them. Right? Where is this distinctive piece? How do I play my role in everything from, you know, the traditional markets we serve and the existing capabilities we've got through to whatever this business might be in the future. Right? That whole arc of innovation. How do I make how do we make that more accessible to everybody? Because if we're gonna if we're gonna do this properly, we've got to achieve that. Right? Absolutely. And I think, you know, it it comes down to, like you said, it's language, and language is important. So if we want people the biggest problem companies have made with innovation over the past twenty years they say I want everybody to innovate that makes no sense because nobody as you just said understands what it means. So we need to translate what does innovation mean to us as an organization specifically clearly and articulate that and communicate that the same thing with our differentiator. Now I would argue that once you understand your differentiator innovation becomes clear. Because if we can clearly articulate how we differentiate coming back to Radio Flyer, they're very clear that their differentiator is to put smiles on every person who buys a product or interacts with the company. So if that's the case if you're the person answering phone calls your measure of success is not a sale your measure of success is did I make them smile? Did I make them feel good? Did I bring them joy today with that interaction? It's very different than most companies where it's a transaction. This is they build relationships and feelings and emotions. So we need to get that level of clarity so it can be communicated. And I will say that what's important is although the organization has a differentiator that needs to cascade down. So teams, departments, and functions all need to understand what is their unique differentiator and how does it contribute to the organization's overall differentiator. And then we need to bring that down to individuals. There's a whole section in the book on how do we become pivotal as individuals whether it's an employee, as an entrepreneur, or even in our lives. How do we have pivotal lives? And that again comes down to the clarity. And if you're an employee, you need to understand what your unique, capabilities are, the things that you do better than anyone else, those five d's. What do I do as an individual that helps my team do what it does best to help the organization do best. And again we provide a bunch of different models for that cascading but it's you have to have that level of clarity and communication for any of this to work. One of the topics I think that's covered quite well in the book is and it's all sort of linked to this craziness of of, you know, there's a million things coming at us that are new and that we have to react to, is the burnouts and confusion. Right? Like, the feeling that, individually, teams, everything about the business can just feel so chaotic that modern workplaces will often struggle with with this. And, you know, this idea of constant change is is the thing that you're you're really, really tackling. So how do you how do you reflect on that, and how can you bring order to the chaos by adopting the things that you've that you're outlining in the book? So the I think the key with all of this is that stability comes not from eliminating uncertainty or increasing predictability. We can't predict the future. I've got friends who are futurists and they might have some probabilistic models that are going to help us understand where we might go but we can't predict the future. So all we can do is look at what can we do today? What is it that we can do today better than anyone else that will stand the test of time And make sure that every person, when they look at the work that they are doing, the reason why people are burning out, first of all, is they're getting conflicting and changing instructions. One day, we're this is our priority, the next day it's a different priority. We've got this new technology yesterday, now we've got a new one today. So that's part of the burnout. And when we can give people clarity around what is most important where they should be innovating where they differentiate on their daily work we eliminate that burnout. We get much greater clarity. We get much greater stability. And we get everybody moving in the same direction. And it's it it just it's it's the time for us to realize that we can't be chasing the next bright shiny object. Because as fun as ai is to deal with today there's going to be something else that comes down the line or it's going to be AI version two that's gonna be totally different than what we have today. So I I think we need to just recognize there are some things that will change but what's most important for us is to recognize for our organization what is that should stand the test of time that won't change? What is the thing that we need to do now that creates the greatest opportunities rather than focusing on distractions and the next thing that comes our way? So on that on that theme, how can dis how can businesses distinguish between genuine opportunities and distractions or fleeting fads then, do you think? So the five d's are one, because if you can get clear on what cape again, these aren't products. These are capabilities we build, Yep. That are going to stand the test of time and that people value. That's the first place. And the second thing is to recognize I'll give you the shortened version of one of the the frameworks. And I'll only talk about, I'll talk about all three levels just so people understand. So everything that every person in your organization does falls into one of three categories and I want to be clear these are activities, these aren't jobs, roles, people's, departments. These are activities and every person in every department does a combination of all three. The first level are support. These are the ones that create internal value but don't create external value. We need them to run the business, but our customers really aren't paying us to have the world's best payroll system. It's the next two levels that are more interesting though, and it's core versus differentiating. Core are the table stakes. These are the entry points. This is what is expected. If you get these wrong, it's not why core is never the reason somebody's gonna do business with you, but if you get it wrong it will be why somebody leaves you. So if you're in the hotel industry having a clean room, having working wi fi, having good food, those types of things are just core. I've never heard somebody say I'm gonna stay at this hotel because they have Wi Fi or they don't have bed bugs or whatever it is. But if you don't have those working the way they should work, you're gonna lose people pretty quickly. So you have to ask yourself, what is core? What is differentiating? Important to distinguish that because and I'll just use AI for an example right now. Most companies have shifted their strategy to AI so much that they've taken their eye off their differentiator. AI, unless you are an Accenture, my alma mater, or a company that is investing billions of dollars into AI understanding it and how to leverage it, unless you're one of those companies, for most of you, AI is just gonna be core. It's an expectation. Your products and services and offerings have to have AI, but they're not gonna work with you because you have it. They just might not work with you if you don't have it. So if that's the case, your strategy isn't to innovate around your core, it isn't to innovate with AI, it's to find the people who already are masters at AI, work with them, partner with them, bring in some, you know, proven practices and try to leverage it. But it's not trying to be the world's best AI company. It's to leverage AI so you can do what you do best better than anyone else. Do you think that, innovators listening to this are going to well, how should they view this as a but Steven's just talking about really just focusing on the call then, this planted for everything else. And I'm constantly fighting my business to not just do that. Right? To sort of push the boundaries, take a few more risks. Let me be more experimental in the things that I'm doing, and this is gonna this messaging might my my leaders might perceive this as, okay. We must continue doing what we're doing and and not not take as many risks. Like, how how should it be received, and and and why is that not quite the the the right lens to to hear this through? Yes. That's a great point where people hear what doesn't change look. What doesn't change doesn't mean you're standing still. So it is really about how do we deepen our relationship with our customers and our clients. Because if we go deeper, we're still changing, but we're not changing direction. We're not dissipating our energy. We're actually focusing our energies. So for example, you know one of the early titles of this book Innovate Where You Differentiate was an early one another was called Divot which is a golf term. And I love that term but nobody really got it. And and the point was that it's a deep pivot. It's like that going going deep so for example one of the things which I realized was is I kept on thinking for almost you know fifteen years and I'm I'm a professional speaker but I'm not. I'm an innovation expert who delivers speeches but I also deliver content and help create and transform companies and when I made that shift from being a speaker to being a person who provides depth in the area of innovation, well, it totally changed the products I created without changing the capabilities that I had. I still went deeper into my differentiator, but it wasn't about standing still. It was about going deep. Yeah. I saw that initial. I think you touted a few of those online as well. And as a as a golfer who's laid more than a few divots, I definitely understood what you were talking about. But I I think I like the metaphor in pivotal, and the pivot idea, particularly from the software space where pivoting is quite well known, and it it's a nice play on words, you know, semantically around around that as well. What is the what is the impact on leadership then within all of this? You know, I asked the question around innovators might be thinking, well, don't don't read this as just focus on the core, but leaders have obviously got to lead effectively around this. So what what role does leadership play in creating this stable foundation, but also affording their teams the right places to then go and do the good work that has to build the value and build go and do the good work that has to build the value and build those customer relationships, with with on top of those foundations. Yes. So the leadership has to basically pour the cement. It has to, you know, get that stable foundation so that everybody can build the house on top of it. And we can change the house and renovate the house and add you know new rooms we can do it but we still have a foundation and unfortunately most companies you know the leaders haven't given enough clarity and again clarity doesn't mean restricting people clarity just means this is the direction we're going and we can veer off a little bit, but when we do, we need to understand the implications of that. So the key thing for a leader is to create that stable foundation. The way you do that is to have clarity around your differentiator and to then communicate that, to disseminate it to every person in the organization. So if every person understands how they contribute and every team, department, and function understands how they contribute to the differentiator then you get leverage. And that's really I think, that the key with all of this is to make sure we're doing that is, letting people do what they do best and and helping the organization move forward that way. So do you think most people inside most organizations would know what their differentiator is and what that distinctive differentiator is, in particular, from from leaders down. I'm also curious because I think a few of the examples we've given around this today have been quite consumer goods oriented. So getting into, I don't know, the the slightly the the maybe b to b parts of the value chain or whatever. I assume that this applies through in there as well, but that that is gonna say choir of what is that distinctive differentiator. Is that well understood? So I I love the fact that you brought up b to b because that is actually some of my favorite uses of the concepts. So let me for answer the first half of the question, which is, do most companies know what their differentiator is? And I found that they know what their mission, their vision, and things of that nature are, but they don't necessarily know they're differentiated. They don't think in these terms or if they do have a sense of what their differentiator is, it's typically not correct. Sometimes it's a technology. I remember working with a major, won't even say the industry, but it's a major major, industry and they were convinced this one technology they developed was their differentiator. And I was like, I guarantee you within six to nine months your competition is going to do what you did and they're going to do it better and it's exactly what happened. And so what was in their opinion their differentiator was actually something which became an albatross because they put too much money in it and it wasn't the right thing to invest in. But they realized in their cases it was around their service culture and again the details don't matter. So let's go to b2b for just one quick second because this is when we talked about disseminating externally. Here's what's really great is if you can master the process that I talked about and you can understand your differentiator if you're a b2b company and you have a conversation with your clients and customers, if you can better understand what is support, core, and differentiating for them And if your differentiator as a service provider lines up with their core or their support, now you have the best selling points you can have because you can tell people when you work with me I'm going to help you innovate where you differentiate and we will take the core and support off the table for you. And these conversations have been transformational during the sales process. So you wanna innovate where you differentiate, but you also wanna sell where you differentiate. And ideally, where you're selling is into someone else's core or support. Yeah. That's a really nice way of framing it together. And the book does a good job of going going deep on this as well. As I start to bring us to a close on this, you mentioned earlier that this can apply to the individual as much as to the team or the or the organization. So in terms of that stability and personal development, how can individuals apply this concept of depth and stability to their personal growth and career development? It really comes down to I mean, if you what I think about are sort of the first three d's. So I think about, what do I do that nobody else do does? I mean like what makes me distinctive as an individual? What do I internally desire? That is what do I love to do? Something that really gets me jazzed up. What is the world value that I do? And how is it that I can offer something that others couldn't replicate? And when you get those pieces together, you end up with a pretty stable foundation because you're doing something you love, you're doing something the world values, you're doing something that nobody else can do and nobody else could ever copy you. And that's how we become valuable or pivotal as an employee, pivotal in our lives is making sure we're doing the things that we love to do that are gonna have the greatest impact. Here here, which I know we're doing we're doing every day, right, and the things that we're we're working on ourselves. Exactly. Aside from, encouraging people to go pick up the book, which I I definitely do, and I'm assuming they can pick that up at all good booksellers as I as I know I ordered mine online. Where can people find you, and, what else what else would you like them to know about you? You know, I think that you're you're not just an author. You're a lot more than this. Right? I think your keynotes are phenomenal, but where can people find you? Where can they find out more about you if they wanna connect with you? Sure. So, I mean, steve shapiro dot com is certainly the the easiest place. Or you can go to the innovation speaker. You don't have to worry about spelling all my names so the innovation speaker will take you to the same place. But the thing which I'm enjoying the most right now is when I do the transformational work with my clients through my Fast Innovation Mastery program and that's, if you go to Fast Innovation Mastery dot com basically that is a an apprenticeship program I've developed where I take people inside of a company and we go deep into my process we use that cascading model that I talked about and we create a group of masters, the people who are gonna be deep deep deep practitioners in the concepts, who then bring in the ambassadors which is the next level and then we start cascading it further down into the organization and it's just incredibly powerful to see the results we're able to produce. Well, Steven, thank you very much. I know this book is not a, not just a labor of love, but it's based off of, many years of actual applied experience that you're now bringing to help people to, as you put it, innovate innovate where they differentiate. I think there's a lot of great concepts in there. It is like everything in this topic. Right? It's an applied piece. You gotta put the put the time in to really think about these things. I think the structures you've got in there, the support core differentiating, the five d's and everything are nice, easy, accessible things. And, thank you very much for giving us a little bit of time today to walk through them. And as I said, I actively encourage people to go pick this book up and, and check out Steven's work. Thank you again, Steven. Thank you, Simon.

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