Total Innovation Podcast
Welcome to "Total Innovation," the podcast where I explore all the different aspects of innovation, transformation and change. From the disruptive minds of startup founders to the strategic meeting rooms of global giants, I bring you the stories of change-makers. The podcast will engage with different voices, and peer into the multi-faceted world of innovation across and within large organisations.
I speak to those on the ground floor, the strategists, the analysts, and the unsung heroes who make innovation tick. From technology breakthroughs to cultural shifts within companies, I'm on a quest to understand how innovation breathes new life into business.
I embrace the diversity of thoughts, backgrounds, and experiences that inform and drive the corporate renewal and evolution from both sides of the microphone. The Total Innovation journey will take you through the challenges, the victories, and the lessons learned in the ever-evolving landscape of innovation.
Join me as we explore the narratives of those shaping the market, those writing about it, and those doing the hard work. This is "Total Innovation," where every voice counts and every story matters.
Brought to you by The Infinite Loop – Where Ideas Evolve, Knowledge Flows, and Innovation Never Stops.
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Total Innovation Podcast
13.Gijs van Wulfen: Breaking innovation barriers
Gijs van Wulfen (1960, based in Greece of Dutch origin) is a well-known global authority and trusted advisor on innovation, inspiring speaker, author of three innovation bestsellers, one of the top ten worldwide innovation bloggers, and a LinkedIn Influencer with 325.000+ followers.
He is very driven to jump start innovation, because organisations struggle with the start of innovation in their day-to-day hectic business. He is a business economist with a master’s in management consultancy. During his career of thirty years, Gijs has worked as a fast-moving consumer goods marketer, a boardroom consultant, a large group facilitator and as a keynote speaker. Through his informal personal style, infectious enthusiasm and persuasiveness he gets people to move beyond their borders to make their organization innovative again.
Gijs is also the author of the innovation bestseller “The Innovation Expedition”, which has been published in English, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Turkish, Dutch, Chinese and Japanese. Gijs furthermore founded the FORTH innovation method, which provides structure to the chaotic start of innovation, while still fostering creative thinking. The FORTH method helps businesses to generate well-constructed new product, service, and business model concepts. To date the FORTH innovation method has been implement in 100+ businesses in Asia, Europe, Africa and North – and South America.
Gijs van Wulfen is renowned for his structured approach to initiating innovation, notably through his FORTH innovation method. Wazoku offers resources that align with his methodologies, focusing on structured innovation processes and fostering a culture of innovation.
The 8 Pillars of a Successful Innovation Strategy
This whitepaper outlines key components essential for a robust innovation strategy, emphasizing the importance of structured processes and clear objectives—principles central to the FORTH method.
Welcome to another edition of the Total Innovation podcast. As always, I'm your host, Simon Hill. I'm certain that innovators listening to this show, of which I know there are many, will have found themselves facing countless barriers when attempting to revolutionize markets and change organizations. Our biggest challenge is often to get management buy in to prioritize innovation. And often prioritize the right innovation as well. And once we're on our way with doing that, to keep that commitment during those complicated, elongated developments and scaling phases of these new higher risks, innovation initiatives in this podcast, as always, we're speaking to a luminary. We're speaking to someone who's been there and done it, who's researched it, and has now written the book on this as well. We interview acclaimed author and practitioner, Yves van Wolfen, on his newest book, I say newest because he's written several, several, Breaking Innovation Barriers, empowering you with 15 practical strategies to overcome the main barriers to innovation. I've read it, it's great, it's accessible, and I'm looking forward to digging into it with, with Yves today. You'll learn how to win the buy in of managers and investors, transforming your vision and dreams into that tangible reality that we all really want as innovators, but we don't want to work in theory. We want to work in, in impact and outcome. So welcome a LinkedIn luminary with over 300, 000 followers. People seem to love what you have to say. Yes. Thank you, Simon for the warm welcome. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. So we, we caught up beforehand and we have a, we have a fun guest today. Someone who likes to, you know, that's the subject matter serious. Right? But we have to also, you know, take a little bit of humor and a little bit of, of humility in the way that we work. But for folks that don't know you, can you just quickly introduce yourself to the listeners? Simon here is a frustrated innovator. That's what I was. Come on. I started in business. I was a business economist. I started as marketeer and then you come at old companies, food companies who need to innovate. And they only said no, no, no, no, no, no to me. It was so frustrating. I couldn't get it at all. And I left after eight years, food industry become a consultant. But you know, a consultant is great until you leave. Then afterwards, nothing happens at the client because the project was yours. And then after being, you know, working 15 years, adding no value at all, I thought, come on, I must try to solve this thing, this fuzzy front end of innovation. How can you get those great ideas in and get them realized? Then I made method, I first studied creativity. It's not called design thinking, but in my time it was pre YouTube, it was called creativity. And I made it merge business thinking and creative thinking, design thinking. And then I, yeah, started to make methodologies and, um. After six books, I thought, Oh, it's, it's done, Simon. I'm ready, ready to retire on create with the beautiful white mountains. And then I got to Milano and the energy got flowing in and I still see all the innovators struggling with the same thing, hitting their heads on the barriers of innovation. And those barriers are inside your company. They're not outside, the enemy even is inside. I said, Oh, come on guys, do another effort and try to write down your learning. So yeah, so I made kind of 15 strategies to, to, to win management buy in. So what I like is to make you a better innovator and then, you know, tell about my mistakes, my learnings. In the hope that you will learn faster and then have more impact than I did in my career, a little bit less frustrated, I guess, by the time we get, uh, you know, writing about it helps Simon writing about it really helps. So that's good. There was another book of therapy. That's good. That's good. Why don't we start? Because I, you know, I've, I've, I've thrown this stat around a lot, but it's, it's a, it's a thing, right? Is that people don't really know even what we're meaning when we talk about what is innovation. So there's lots of different interpretations of it. There's some very purists around out there that will say it's just this. It's just, it's just, just a specific thing. What's your definition? Let's start. Yeah, that's a good question. Great to start with that. Now, for me, you know, getting ideas is creativity. That's not innovation. Developing new new tech is invention. That's not innovation. Innovation is transforming ideas on new tech into reality with impact. So that's what, for me, innovation is. It's transforming ideas or transforming technology into reality with impact. And what I've noticed is that innovation is so much more than what it was 30, 40 years ago, innovation was kind of R and D product innovation. And then we got service innovations in the nineties and the two thousands, and then we got business model innovation. And now, you know, with the ESG so dominant sustainability, so dominant, we also got social innovation, organizational innovation. So I now see it much more broader than 20, 30, 40 years ago. So anything which is new and can create impact is for me, innovation. And I guess in that frustration piece, which we'll dig into in a second, it was that impactful bit that you found so frustrating, right? Like kind of how do you get to, to scaled impact because there's lots of ideas, but how do you get the, get them to market? Well, I, you know, that best, uh, you know, uh, you know, everything about stage gates that was so cool. Right. And you know, that's on average out of, in a standard state gate projects, out of the three ideas we get in one gets out at best, right? If you're lucky. Yeah. If you're lucky. Well, That's a lot of frustration in there. And that's a lot of blocking in there. And that's a lot of, and we say, yes, yes, no, but we learn from their failures. Uh, we don't make companies make the same mistake again and again and again and again, and I tried to solve this to make it quicker, to make it more fun. And also another, the. You know, an innovative workplace is a great workplace. It's where there are possibilities and opportunities instead of where there are politics and rules and bureaucratic things. So let's dig into that. You've been there and done it as a frustrated innovator. And I'm sure in reflection, there's things that you would have done differently, maybe with different outcomes, maybe not right. But no, no, I would for certain the voice of experience that we're not going to impart on others through this conversation. But, but why do you, why is it so? Difficult then, you know, companies will say we're investing so much. We're hiring these great people. We're backing them and in all the ways that we can but we're not getting the outputs that we want whether that's, you know, sufficient conversion rates or ROI or whatever it might be from a innovation perspective. Why is it? Why is it so difficult? It's difficult because you can't invent alone. And you can ideate alone, but in an organization, think of your own organization. Now, how many people you need transforming an idea into reality? How many, how many departments, how many countries, how many bosses you need to inform, how many committees you meet to inform, right? And that's where the problem is because in innovation, you like an idea, but do you really love it? Do you really want to go for it? Is it really yours? Is there really ownership? Are you willing to even put your career at stake for this big thing you want to launch or not? A lot of people think, no, no, no, no, no. Ooh, way too risky, right? So it's the most important thing is getting management buy in. And I did a, I did a, uh, on LinkedIn. I did a poll in 2023, and that triggered me. Why does innovation stops? Innovation stops because of a lack of feasibility in 8%. Only 8% was feasibility. 52% was a lack of management buy-in. Then you had to slow 15% and the rest, rest, uh, rest of um, um, a lack of business model. But when you add it too slow to the 52% of lack of management buyin, it's around 70% right. It's only because we don't dare to, we, because we don't want to, because we think it's too risky because we don't believe in it. It are the soft things in innovation, which are the hard things. I like that phrase, the soft things, which are the hard things. And maybe we should, we should dig into that because this is where we start to get into some of the frameworks around. The book and other things as well. Let's talk about those, those, those main innovation barriers that you talk about management buying, right. And as, as one, as one of the primary ones, I guess a lot of managers would sit there thinking, but we do buy in, we do, we do some things or. We did buy into this thing and it, you know, it never turned out in the right way for us in some, in some way, shape or form, there's a lot of complexity to peel back in that concept of just management buy in, right? Like, what does that sense mean? How does it manifest itself? So then we can peel that onion back a little bit in terms of innovation barriers. And before I like to do, I like to say, you know, this is not complaining against management because I am, you know, I am the age, I could be a CEO like you. So it's not about that. Right. You know, we also look at us because if you point out at your manager, one finger points out at him or her and three point to yourself, right? I want to talk to a CEO and say, Hey, I got three problems with innovators, right? It's always less than they promised. It's always cost more than they promised. And then they always deliver less than they promised. Right. And that's what they do. And also, you know, a lot of managers are deeply disappointed in innovation and their innovation efforts, and their willingness to do so. But somehow they, the system is too big or too complicated, or it is too politic or, or they just can't get it done. So the barriers, first of all, is understand your managers. When you are a researcher and you are the innovation boss, what do you expect? You expect new technology where you are an engineer and you are the innovation boss. You expect any improvement which works where you are a venture capitalist guy coming in as an innovation boss. You want growth of the company, but you're originally are a finance guy and are now the innovation boss. You want When you are a commercial guy and you are now in an innovation, the C. The the C, no, the chief innovation officer. You want satisfied customers and when you come from human resources and I grown up as the VP innovation, you want internal people to feel empowered to, to give their ideas. So mind you, do we know what background our bosses have? Do we know what is expected from them? It's like, now you celebrate Christmas, Simon. Come on. Oh, we do. Oh, we do. Now, do you make a Christmas list? My children are busy making one right now. Of course. I want this, this, this. The innovators do. They bring presents without knowing what's on the list. They don't know what management wants from them. Bring me innovation. Bring me something. But you know, the point is, Even I, or even in the board, we don't know what we want with innovation. Yeah. I was going to say, I was like, that's, that's part of the challenge as well. So the challenge is, I know I want EBITDA and I know I want growth and I know I only got a limited innovation budget of, let's say 5 million to spend. And then, so we all know the criteria, but even does everybody in your innovation team knows the criteria? Do we know what we need to bring back? So. One of the problems is a lack of direction. Hmm. You as top management, you have to give direction and freedom. You have to make an innovation assignment. I want something revolutionary. It can be a product, a service, a business model. I don't mind, but it needs to bring back a hundred million revenues and year three after introduction with an EBITDA of 40%. Uh, I wanted to start in EA first and then roll it out. All over Europe and the introduction date needs to be in 2027. All right, that's a clear briefing and then you can give the freedom to the innovation team to provide you with the content which fulfills that. Now, so, so clear you have to make, but we have to help top management to make that clear. And so that's one thing. I'm not a big thing. You think? Sorry for cutting across you, but it's something that we've discussed or I've discussed with other guests on the podcast is maybe one of the biggest challenges. And you mentioned this, right? The Sino, the chief innovation officer. And it's actually a role that I have. Some problems with right because I don't think there's ever going to be a true c level Innovation role right true c level right there may be a notional one, but a true true one What I mean by that is that that as a consequence of wherever that reports up to which is always problematic if it exists at all Is that that person isn't really? The true owner, because you mentioned earlier, right? There's different types of innovation. There's different outcomes that you're trying to get, which actually horizontally cuts across the innovation problem, right? And in terms of thinking, and so maybe the problem that we've got isn't just management buy in, but that there isn't management ownership even for this. And then this is interesting. Now sales is for today. Marketing is for tomorrow. And innovation is for the day after tomorrow. Innovation is all has to do about strategy. Okay, we are now today here. Where do I want to be a CEO in five or 10 years? Because that's the horizon we talk about, right? In five or 10 years, what's going to bring me there? More of the same won't bring me there. Otherwise we would need a strategy, right? Strategy is always about doing different things or doing things in a different way. So it's the innovation functions which has to deliver on the strategy. So for me, there is only one chief innovation officer. Okay. That is the CEO and he or she should own, you know, should own, uh, innovation. And of course, and he or she needs to have a staff there. You don't need a chief innovation officer. You know, I think that when you have the CTO on the technical side, The CCO on the commercial side, right? And the COO on the operational side, it is the CEO can use his or her power to combine those three things. And that's a sweet spot for innovation. Something which is new technically, which solves a customer fiction, which we can make or together with partners, which we can make, that's what innovation is about and is the CEO at top level who can coordinate there and who can facilitate that for me. Um, I'm heavily inclined to agree and I actually, I have this vivid conversation once with a recently stepped down CEO of a very large financial services. organization. And I asked them this exact question. I was like, isn't this your, your remits at, you know, why wasn't, why weren't you more involved in the conversations? And the answer I got very vividly, he picked up a load of papers that were next to us on the table and put it all, put them all in the middle and then got a small part. And then the other one is like, this is the pile of stuff I wish I could have done every day. And you're in it. This is the pile of regulatory. Other stuff, right? Risk management related things that I spent 99 percent of my time doing most of them that weren't planned the day before that kept popping up. Right. And it's like the very difficult role it is because you don't want to be doing most of the stuff that you're doing at the sea level. And I want to be getting into this stuff. And I think that there's a, there's a truism in there. That's just very hard to unpick, right? That we live in this kind of Bureau, but let's be a bit harder on this CEO because come on, The operational shit he should have done, let done by others. Why is a CEO in such operational role? I think then you need to look at your operational team, because for me, the CEO has a management team, which rules the business of today. And that should not be the role of the CEO. He or she would be the one who is busy with it in five or 10 years because he or she is the only one who was busy in five or 10 years with it. And that's what a good CEO should do. So, but of course, especially when you are, uh, um, uh, you know, a publicly noted company, right? Oh, you know, There are so many, so many incidents which get onto your table, you know, which take up all the time, which is really a pity. And in that case, I can even understand and I can even sympathize because I'm also a business economist, uh, Simon, you wouldn't say that with my creative book and I am a long hair. I'm just a dull, a dull economist from inside. And I know if we don't make any money today, we cannot finance innovation for tomorrow. So I am completely in or focusing on today, earning money today to improvement today, do incremental innovation today because they will, they will get us the funds to be able to innovate for tomorrow. So you should have your legs on both in today and in tomorrow. But, um, a lot of the time, you know, when like revenues are, Oh my, Oh, revenues are a bit down. And then EBITDA is double down because margins are down too. Where do we get the money from? Okay. You know, we cut the marketing budget and we cut the innovation budget and we have to pump it into the bottom line to save. To save the profits of this year, right? That's, that's what most people do. And I even can understand that, but when you're an innovator, you feel insulted that you see your project being stopped, of course, a lot of people are feeling that, that right now. Right. But do you see that there is a, I mean, we get back to the barriers here a little bit, right. Of what's happening. And clearly leadership, um, is a key part of that, right? Management is management. Leadership is leadership. And I, I, I split those two things. Out and I'm constantly reflecting as we're talking around how I do this in my business and what role I take and of course, you know, I try and listen more and speak less than my team may disagree sometimes, but I actively try and I find that actually the most productive best meetings when I do, right? Like I will, I will often type rather than speak because my voice and my words carry different, different power in the, in those two forums. When I lectured in India, there was an Indian guy from the, from the. Uh, audience. And I was talking about the fourth innovation method and the second step in the fourth innovation method after full steam ahead, making the direction is observe and learn. And, um, a guy stood up from the audience. It was in Delhi in India around 10 years ago. And he says, Hey, there is a reason why God gave us one mouth, two eyes and two ears, if God has wanted us to speak. You would have given us two mouths instead of one. Exactly. This is, well, this, this pops into my mind while you say this, right? Simply innovation is all about learning. That's what innovation is. It's all about being open. Go out, see things you never saw again. You never saw, hear things you never hear it instead of, and in your own world, you are in a beehive and the beehive is busy zooming around, but the real world is outside the beehive. And how often, how often do you get there? Learn Not, not too far outside of the beehive either. I think we're, um, we're, we're, we're leaning on, we're, we're learning more about this. Right? And I think that the world of data and, and ai, if you wanna call it, that, are starting to open up some of those things. As you know, we're, we're a crowdsourcing business. I believe firmly that many of the answers, like just outside the field of usual view and that the crowd is best for discovering those, right. From an innovation perspective. So. I don't know how much you looked at data. It wasn't, it wasn't front, wasn't front and center in some of your barriers, but it's probably implicit within it somewhere as well. Well, the interesting part is, is that, um, 30 years ago, when I was a consultant before the internet, we did one thing at one client and we did exactly the same thing at the other client. They just needed us for the knowledge. Then Google came and now AI came. If we want now 10, 15, 15 business cases, we got them within an hour. If you want 250 new concepts, we got them in two hours. So the watch, we have been focused on the knowledge on the watch. The what is not a problem anymore, but have you ever seen now? A management team say yes to a computer. This is the interesting part. Again, the soft things will be even the more harder things in the future. Consultants, the old style, will be gone because we don't need to work. We got our chat TPs, we got our data, we got our integrated data, and you are the expert on that on the innovation side. How to integrate external data with internal data. The data are not a problem. You can generate a lot of concepts from your computer, but the fact is, how do you create ownership and how, when do management teams say yes, that depends on how much certainty they need. And I'll come to this in a moment, when you start innovation, how much certainty do you have at the front end of innovation? You have zero percent. There is no certainty. When you say yes as management team. We are for this big launch. How much certainty you want to have a hundred percent. So as innovators, we are certainty builders. Is this something the client wants? Is this something that we can produce? Is this something where there's a business model? And we feed it all with data to build certainty, certainty, certainty. And when there's trust, they will say yes. So I think that even the soft things, you know, especially in a new age of AI, computers, and it's all there, but do I believe it or not? And that's where, and that's where the human side comes in. So people say, Oh guys, it will be the end of innovation consultants and facilities. Oh no, no, no, no. Yeah. It goes, how do we, how do we merge then the soft and the hard things, you know, that's where people are still needed. Yeah, no, I, I, I'm inclined to agree. Like, I think that, that my piece on the data piece right now is, is, is helping to drive that, that by helping to drive the prioritizations, helping to. Avoid the usual pitfalls that lead to many of the wrong projects being initiated or overfunded for too long and the right, the right lessons not learned or the right pivots, not not taken, um, and therefore maybe moving us onto timing a little bit that we, you know, either we run out of time because as a team, as a group, as a function, um, we've, we've invested too much in the wrong projects or taken too long. Even with the right projects, right? Like I'm seeing a lot of very good projects being killed at the moment and divested. Why is that? Why is that, Simon? Well, but it's, and some of it's for the, for the reasons that, that management's have been, you know, businesses are having to make hard choices right now. And there are some really interesting businesses out there. What I find quite strange, and I was A conversation, conversation with, um, professor Alf Bingo who was the founder of a business we acquired called Incentive. It's now Waki Crowd. And you know, his vision when he created Incentive was, you know, which came out of Lilly Labs, Eli Lilly, right, was to create a open science community to disrupt the way that drug development was done in use crowdsourcing for, for doing that. The Lily Labs loved it and funded it, but didn't want it to be a disrupter to itself or its own or its own market, and therefore, in some ways, you know, and the market didn't like it very much either, because it was such a threat to them as they went forward. But one of the interesting things from from that, which was it is highly effective, right? There was huge amounts of data to suggest that these open approaches to doing innovation are almost unilaterally cheaper, faster and more effective than the closed approaches for doing it right. And lots of people have written Lots of good research around this as, as, as evidence backs. What's interesting about that though, is that I would say that there's also a normal distribution curve of quality that comes off the back of those. And that even, but that even the ones we might think of as the dogs, right? They're not necessarily the unicorns or the future business models probably still have a significant number of zeros after them in terms of potential value. Right. And so the venture bits. Of our of these companies and the opportunities to create value that could go and create value in the world Like venture capitalists do but businesses understand these problems and these markets better than vcs do better than bankers Do feels like a missed opportunity, right? And so I think some of it is Is a poorer understanding of strategy, but these are smart people with smart businesses and smart smart teams around them And so part of the answer is I don't know the answer to your question Why not right other than strategy strategy and fear wags the tail, right? May I may I ask you a personal question siren? Um And, and I, I, I honestly don't know this, but do you have any children or any nephews and nieces? I have two, two small children. Yes, I do. Two small children. Okay. Now, um, do you like your children? Of course. I love my children. Yeah. You love your children? Mostly. Yeah. Most of the time. Well, they're still, they're still small. That's, that's Now, do you have in Sweden where you live any Neighbors with children or neighbors of neighbors with children. Of course, there's many around. Oh, many, good, good. Do you like the children of the neighbors? Yeah, I mean, this is going to go out globally, isn't it? So let's, you know, there's a mixed bag out there. Now, be honest now, be honest now, do you love the children of the neighbors? No, I don't, I don't think I would, I don't think I would go that far about it. Hmm. Exactly. That's different, huh? Now, the only difference Between your child and the child of the neighbors is that your child is yours and the child of the neighbors is not yours. Of course. I hope. That's best we know. Correct. No, I understand the point. It is the same with ideas. Yeah. It's the same with ideas. Of course. Rationally, you're completely right. Via open source, open crowdfunding, but it's all the child. It are all the childs of the neighbors. It are not our childs because, and this is the check question. Does your wife or girlfriend or ex wife, I still hope wife, I still hope, but also love your children. When we came on, uh, she was my wife. That's like, she still is. That's no coincidence. You made your children together. And what you create, you like, and what you create, you trust. And of course, if there's something wrong with the child or the neighbors, you will start to, to, to arrange something. But when there's not something wrong with your child, which I don't hope, you would stop the postcards immediately and go out and save him or her, right? And so the ownership is about creation. And of course you can make use of also in the Ford methodology, other methodologies, right in observe and learn you source from, but you need to digest it first for you to become yours. And this is so important. It's just a human trade of humans. And especially in doing new things, we have to digest it first. And it has to be not only in our minds from an objective, but also in our souls or in our hearts. And then we will go for it. I think there's a human identity piece that comes into it as well. And we can, we can start to start, start to dig into some of the other thematics. But in a, in one of the previous podcasts, we spoke with Steve Rader at NASA and, you know, they do a lot of work with us in crowdsourcing as well. And we discussed the, the identity of a rocket scientist and a PhD who's dedicated their life to this was that. It's my job to come up with the best ideas. It's my job to, to, and actually the reframing of that, of your job is to, is to return, to return astronauts safe to planet earth, right. And to get them up into space and get them back down again safely. And that in that reframing. The ability to turn every rock and make sure that you've considered every idea and that you understand everything and that that's not all on your shoulders led to this real embracing of open innovation and open talent and innovation as a collaborative capability, not the purveyor of geniuses exclusively. It's all about the culture thing. Right. And now we come to, you know, it's all about building a culture with embraces innovation and, uh, you know, in, um, in my book, innovation, breaking innovation barriers, I call it, you know, we innovation and not I innovation and we innovation started doing it together internally. Now, where you embrace that, then you can also inc, You know, do we innovation, you know, including crowdfunding, uh, their assignment and crowd sourcing of ideas and new technologies and, but you have to lose the eye. And it's easier when you're older like me. I'm an old dog. Come on. You know, I, I've done it all. Well, not all, but seen it all. I'm, you know, In the fall of my career. So I am much more open than I was, you know, in the spring where I, where I always be there and I want to be seen and it has to be my work. And so to make the culture change also in the organization, I think that is crucial. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I think you're not an old dog, but even so you're teaching new tricks, right? Which is a, which is good. I struggle a little bit with this culture concepts. And I, I, you know, some people put it at the front of the most important bit. Some people put it in the middle, some people put it at the back. Um, why? Because I think it's important. I also think it's, It's in some ways a little bit overhyped. There are cultures that produce great innovation that probably wouldn't be standouts as, you know, the things to mirror and replicate. And maybe that's the point, right? Um, I think that there are some that we hold up as cultures that were very individual led. Strong personalities and that the culture isn't necessarily the culture. Therefore, everyone else in the business would choose. Right? And so I, I have some difficulties with it. I don't, I don't debate it's important in context, but I have some challenges with it. Well, you know, it's really nice when you look at, um, the Hofstede cultural index. And, um, and when you compare that with the global innovation index and, um, One of the countries I go most where, um, where I come every year is Japan, the Tokyo Yokohama region, mind you, that's, that's 40 million people there is the number one technology hotspot in the world, the number one, and Japan is number 13 in innovation index. Isn't that strange? Yeah. They are behind Korea, behind Taiwan, behind Singapore and behind China. Why? Because there's this difference between technology and between an innovation because there's, there is the thing called market. There is a thing called design thinking. There's a thing called empathy, you know, and there's a thing called risk and risk aversion. And you know, the Japanese, they are the Germans of Europe, right? Germany, exactly the same for different reasons. But when you give a German and a Japanese, I'm sorry, all the Japanese and the Germans, but this is an exaggerating Dutch one here. Give an empty, an empty piece of paper, say, draw something. They don't draw something, but when we give them something, here's a mouse, make a better one. They will give the best improvements, right? So they are improved. They are not really the out of the box thinkers. And you know, the, the empathy part, And that's cultural, right, is just in those countries, you know, way and way and way and way and way less well developed than in other parts of the world. Yeah, I understand it in that quite sort of, you know, binary level of, of, of culture. I think most of the world exists in a slightly more opaque, if this was a technology readiness level assessment of a culture, like most of us, or a normal distribution. We're kind of, yeah, good. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I struggle a bit with it. Cause I don't think there's like lots of rotten cultures out there or anything to do with it. Right. That's, that's part of my, part of my, my reasoning and effort feels like another one of these hard to access intangible innovation things that's like, yeah, it's important, but what do I do with that? Right. How do I change that? Um, what does that, what does that look like? And I guess it's a part of the recipe of everything else, right. Which is why, which is equally just candidly why I. Totally recognize it as important and totally struggle with it from a business perspective. On the other hand, you know, another simplification is I've been traveling the world the last 10 years, you know, my methodology, you know, LinkedIn took my methodology, spread it all over the world. And you know, I had to say methodology and they use it everywhere. And the cooler it gets, they say, Oh, you know, what I really like. Of this methodology, it brings us creativity and the warmer it gets, they say, Oh, what I really like this methodology is bringing me structure. Now, isn't that what innovation is? It's combining creativity and, and structure, right? That's what it, that's what it bridges. And so in the north, in Finland and in Sweden, where you live, Oh, come on, you know, it brought creativity, but I'm living now in Italy, in Italy and in Greece and in Spain, they say, Oh, you know, we got all those, all those things flying around and you, and you just give a structure on how to transform it into reality. So I think those are really differences, which, uh, which are important to see, especially when you're working with worldwide companies. You know, that, uh, that there's a huge difference in culture and the culture of. And it was different within an organization of a corporate culture, but there is, it's so difficult to change a corporate culture, to be quite honest, you just have to deal with it. No, exactly. And I think that's, that's kind of part of my point. So I'm going to move us, move us on slightly. And I was in a meeting actually earlier today, talking about this, like was Oku has been in heavy innovation mode ourselves, right? Building lots of new capabilities to, to the market. And, Quite quickly, right? A lot of a lot of pace. And we were talking about this concept of proving customer commitment. There's lots of nice feedback, right? There's lots of stuff coming our direction. But, you know, picking the right signals out of that. I'm really understanding it. So let's get into that topic of, you know, how can you understand and prove customer commitments to what we're what you're innovating, what you're building? Well, it's, you know, so I love to, uh, I love to pretotype instead of prototype, right? So, um, I think that co creation with customers is essential as early in the front end as possible as early in the front end. And you should test everything life when it doesn't, when it works, you continue when it doesn't work, you stop it immediately. So that's what I, especially in business to business, also where you are, right? Only do experiments with clients only. As soon as you've got something, you know, and you can do, of course, first a prototype to see if they would love it. And when they would love it, say, okay, would you like to make a kind of a, you know, a better version and then, you know, make immediately better version with a client, that's what I would do. Yeah. I mean, I'm inclined to agree. I think again, for not wanting to continually play my own violin here, I think crowdsourcing does a great job of this as well, because it gives you perspectives from various angles around the world, right? One of the challenges. I've seen with sometimes with customers is they come very much from their lens at that particular point in time. And it can be quite difficult. But you know, you have to prove Simon because I'm going to stop you here on crowdsourcing, right? And because sure, Simon, sure. But does it work for me? Exactly. My company is so special and we have such a special culture and our customers are so special. Anybody thinks he's really special. And as long as that belief is there, you can say, I bring the knowledge of the whole world and I will say, but we are different. Yeah, no, I look, I appreciate that and hear it every day as well. And, and that's, you know, that's partly why we, we, we continue the good fight of what we're doing. Right. And it isn't just, uh, it isn't purely just for building a great business. Obviously that's the backbone of where I put my energy, but because I fundamentally know that this is a better way of driving the outcomes that we're. That, that we're, that we're talking about, but you know, co creation doesn't come naturally. Again, it's like you talk about creativity and design thinking. And, you know, maybe with people are saying we're beyond design thinking now into something else as well. Like in reality, all of the messages of those very good structures, ways of working frameworks, whatever you want to call them, they're still not hugely integrated. Now there are certain skillsets and certain people in businesses will be shaking their head saying you're all wrong, Simon. I'm like, but not generally. In the way that things are done on a day to day basis inside organizations, like we're just not good at it, right? Like customer co creation in a truly deeper, meaningful way. And it doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. Actually, it can be pretty cheap and, and efficient just isn't well done. And it's not well understood. And the signals are not well received. Well, now here you say something because it's not well understood. And that's where the main problem is. It's not well understood. So what I learned, and of course you are the technical guy, you're the front runner and you're doing a great job. But I also learned that you only need to, to walk one step before your customer. Otherwise you lose him already. And you are 10 steps ahead or a hundred steps ahead, but you have to take him hand by hand. And also the point is that You know, you have to create internally your innovation ambassadors and you have to create your own innovation ambassadors who understand the value of it. Because if you don't do it, you know, there are wonderful tools and nobody uses them, right. And you can, and you can blame the customer. You don't understand it, but who is not understanding who here, right? You just did not find your own, you know, you did not find the way to present it to clients that they adopted right now. And you can blame the clients. But again, three fingers crossed. I completely agree. I'm not blaming the clients either, to be clear. There's this famous, there's a scene in, there's a scene in Ocean's Eleven, right? Where they're, they're robbing the casino and they pull the double bluff and all the, all the police and authorities believe they're following the van full of the money and they pull it up at the, at the airstrip and open the doors, expecting to find all the money in there and find all of the, The flyers from, from the casino will all cut up. Right. And it's, you know, whatever that they, and this, this belief is full on being high on hopium concepts that you're, you know, everything you're doing is chasing the money. And in reality, it's just a van full of, you know, flyers and whatever. And I think that's still. Unfortunately too too common, right? I think that happens very early in the process, right? Sometimes even before the project is fully initiated That we're so high on that. This is the right initiative This is the right thing to do that We're not really listening and following the signals and that's that's part of what I think comes out in your in your book and your research and and and in your other processes as well and very much something that You know, I'm trying to help correct from a data angle on a crowd sourcing as well. Yeah, let's, let's, let's drill into this, you know, how, like there's, there's two questions here in one that I'm going to throw at you partly to keep us on time a little bit, but how does someone therefore become a great innovator? Like, what does that really mean? And, and, and combining that, I'm going to say in that, that, that being a great innovator is, is about building. A better tomorrow and creating that that positive impact, right? So it's kind of bring those things together. You know, I describe this as the best job that anyone could have working innovation, but it must be, you don't want to be that frustrated, frustrated innovator that's lying there at the end, you know, looking at your grandchildren and explaining this amazing opportunity that you had, but it was never quite as good as it could be. Right. So how do we get more proud in this evolving vocation, this involving profession? Well, you know, for me, um, the moment that makes a difference was the following. I think all the insights after I left is, um, but first I'm going to ask you, say another thing. The other thing is this, who determines the speed of the organization? You get some innovators in, they start running, running, running, you know, to, to make the company faster, more agile, more, but who is determining the speed of the herd of the organization? It are the slowest animals. Yep. As innovator, I walk on the front and I look back, I say, Hey, you stupid. Come on, come on. What take you so long? Come on. You think they listen? Of course not. The moment we changed. Was that I changed my thinking completely, a hundred percent. I was frustrated. Because I assumed innovation was the normal thing. The moment you accept, really accept that conservatism is the normal, the whole organization has an immune system protecting it, protecting the daily business and as innovator, you attack the immune system. And the moment you want to change one little thing, all the white blood vessels come through, you know, that's a normal thing. The moment that I accept it. That conservatism was the standard. I could, I went to the back, I start to talk to the most conservative people. I start to understand them. And when I couldn't understand them, I could connect to them. And when I could connect to them, I could lead them in that order. And then they followed me. And then I let the last part of the herd walk faster and the whole organization moved. So I think this is very important that we as innovator, innovators should accept The conservatism of this big giant organization. And we have to do it step by step and we, we, you must not do innovation projects with innovators only. Well, you know, the Muppets, you know, the Muppet show, Waldorf and Stadler. You should take them in the team out of the 10, take Waldorf and Stadler with you. Yes. Your project goes slower, but in the end it moves. You know, you're moving a much more longer way because once they buy in Woldorf and Stadler, wow, the whole company moves, right? So, and this is how you should on the soft side, get everybody in. So the point is that that first accepts that your organization is as conservative as it is. Now, for me, there are three things, which are, I described 10 things to be a great innovator, and then you heard already a lot of them, but what I recently Of course, what is, what, you know, persistency is of course what everybody says, but it really, really, really is important. Innovation doesn't stop at the first no. That's the moment it starts. Correct. It starts. You will get hundred no's. So the moment is, ah, the first no, yes. Now we start. The sooner you get the first no, the sooner you can really start. Because then you, Then you, uh, um, get into the real transformation process, right? So first of all, and then you need to be persistent. Now, what I noticed is that people love stories. And you, of course, you can come with the data, you can come up with a hundred experts from all over the world, but a good story, like you told yourself, Simon, a good story convinces, so be a good storyteller. A good story is about emotions and it's about real people. And that convinces us because we remember that. And the third thing is, Oh guys, I need to change. I want to become a great innovator. I said, don't change because you must stay authentic. You must stay yourself. Because people will follow people who they believe and they trust. So an introvert, an introvert R and D guy can still be the perfect innovator to lead the team, even as long as he or she is authentic. And then you get the credibility from the rest and the respect of the rest. So you don't have to change yourself. Be authentic, be a good storyteller, be persistent. Those are three things I just want to highlight now. Yeah. I look, I, I'm going to start to wind us up, but I know there's a lot more in the book and there's a lot more in your frameworks and others that sit behind all of this, then we can cover in a very good conversation, but still a short conversation, right? So I. I echo these points. I think there's one in there that says align innovation to strategy. That's just front and center perspective as well. And too often that that isn't the case often because strategy is not very well understood. It may well be well defined in a piece of paper, but not very well understood by the business, um, as well. And I think partly that's because there are too many different Chefs in the in the process that are doing their bit of it But no one quite understands how they all fall together with this strategy at the top of it That's often owned by a different person right and and and not so understood So I'm gonna I'm gonna start to winders winders in a little bit. I mean, thank you for the insights that you have shared today. Um, I think we could probably do a podcast on each of the different areas and we should definitely produce a bit more content. I I've genuinely enjoyed this discussion. I appreciate the fact that you've asked me some questions, um, and that this draws on years of experience. I'm not dating you. You've dated yourself a few times in this call, but I think uniquely synthesize both the challenge and the opportunity that confronts Innovators of all ilks, right? You know, I'm very much a believer that whilst we have to define innovation, I think you do take quite a broad definition of it that the journey for an innovator is to get back into the court in some way, shape or form. And so you have to, whether it's, you know, the, the, the, the folk that you referenced, um, that you need to bring in or whatever. Like for me, you can't turn up with, yeah, A British plug in a European plug socket and expect them to work either. Right. And that's not necessarily an innovation challenge. That's the final bit that you turn up with from an organizational perspective and they just don't fit and suddenly it's useless. Right. I did that coming with all my lights, apparently light fittings, not the plug sockets, the things in the ceilings are different here. And so it perplexed me for quite a long time, actually, which, which frustrated me as to the hell do I do with these things? They plug them in and the ceilings here. I'm like, but it's a different thing, but it wasn't an innovation challenge per se, but it was a different culture back to that point of like, this is where culture becomes a thing, right? That, um, That got in the way of me of me having light for a little while, which was fine over the summer and less fine as winter came here. But, but, but thank you. Right. I've really enjoyed this conversation. As I said earlier, your new book is out now. We, as this goes out, we'll share a link to it. We have, have some signed copies that we're working on together that we, um, we'll share with, with, with listeners, how they might be able to access one or two of those. And thank you. Thank you for, for being sharing. Um, for everyone else listening, as always, thank you for listening to the total innovation podcast. If you're a regular subscriber, thank you very much. We have many now around the world and we just hit a big milestone for downloads of the show as our global readership continues to grow. Thanks to great. Presentations and talks like this as well. So thank you very much. If you haven't checked out our prior episodes, please do so. There's great discussions from the likes of NASA to Exxon from unicorn building to AI ethics and much more. So check out the back catalog and keep an eye out for the next exciting episode coming soon. For today, thank you very much.
