Total Innovation Podcast

14. Dr. Nadya Zhexembayeva: Mastering Reinvention

• Wazoku Team • Season 2 • Episode 14

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Called ‘The Reinvention Guru’ (In Ventures magazine) and ‘The Queen of Reinvention’ (TEDx Navasink), Dr. Nadya Zhexembayeva is a business owner, educator, speaker and author -- specializing in reinvention.

 Nadya has helped such organizations as The Coca-Cola Company, ENRC PLC, IBM, CISCO, Erste Bank, Henkel, Knauf Insulation, Vienna Insurance Group and many others to reinvent their products, processes, and leadership practices.

 She served as the Coca-Cola Chaired Professor of Sustainable Development at IEDC- Bled School of Management, an executive education center based in the Slovene Alps, where she continues to teach courses in leadership, strategy, change management, design thinking, and sustainability. In addition to IEDC, Nadya has taught in other business schools, including CEDEP-INSEAD (France), Case Western Reserve (USA), and IPADE Business School (Mexico).

 As a speaker, Nadya has shared her insights with audiences worldwide through keynotes, panel presentations, and workshops. She has delivered three TEDx talks in Austria, Slovenia and the US. Over 100,000+ professionals saw Nadya speak publicly.

 As an author, Nadya has written two books (“Embedded Sustainability: The Next Big Competitive Advantage” in 2011 and “Overfished Ocean Strategy: Powering Up Innovation for a Resource-Deprived World” in 2014) and contributed to five others. In an effort to reinvent corporate approaches to sustainability strategy, Nadya and her co-author Chris Laszlo coined the concept ‘embedded sustainability’, which was virtually non-existent when they started in 2009. Today, it produces 25+ million Google search results and has become a staple for corporate sustainability efforts.

Learn more about how Wazoku's Total Innovation platform supports businesses in driving sustainable, transformative change at Wazoku. 

Brought to you by The Infinite Loop – Where Ideas Evolve, Knowledge Flows, and Innovation Never Stops.

Welcome to another episode of the Total Innovation podcast where we explore transformative ideas, frameworks, and chat with leaders redefining the way we innovate to deliver impact and create value. Today, I'm absolutely delighted to welcome an expert in reinvention, a thought leader known worldwide as the reinvention guru and someone whose work has helped countless organizations thrive through change. Our guest is the founder of the Reinvention Academy, helping businesses to turn disruption into opportunity and embed reinvention into their organizational DNA for over a decade. She's also the best selling author of the chief reinvention officer handbook and overfished ocean strategy, providing practical tools for leaders navigating today's fast changing world. Not content with all that success, our guest and her cofounders are bringing the reinvention summit to Dublin, Ireland in twenty twenty five. It's a brand new event designed to unite innovators, change makers, and leaders to deep dive into what truly into what it truly means to reinvent in today's complex business landscape. In today's episode, we're gonna walk through the concept of reinvention, what reinvention really means, why it's more important than ever, and the key skills required to master it. We'll also get into the reinvention summit, why it was created, and what attendees can expect, and, of course, share a little bit more about where you can learn more. And with that, please allow me to welcome the wonderful doctor Nadia Shekshembeeva. It is a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I hope I got that pronunciation right. Welcome. That's beautiful, Simon. Thank you for having me. We did a little bit of practice beforehand. Right? So, hopefully, I did I did it a little bit of justice. So, Nadia, welcome, first of all. And it's taken us a little bit of time to connect. And in that journey, I've got to explore a little bit more of the work that you're doing. And as you told me just before we came on board, you just had your tenth anniversary for at least part of that journey. But for the audience that maybe don't know you so well, can you just introduce yourself beyond the introduction I gave and explain explain a bit about your journey to today? Well, in a professional sphere, I'm a recovering academic. I spent many, many years as a researcher, teacher, a classic academic role in executive education only, and my last position was incredibly, luxurious and comfortable. I was the Coca Cola chaired professor of strategy and sustainability with essentially means that I got a lot of money to do whatever heck I want to do in terms of research and teach executives only. And I quit. And I quit because I could see that a lot of the glorious and absolutely perfect and necessary frameworks, tools, methodologies, and assumptions beneath those tools were wonderful in the twentieth century and were killing companies in the twenty first century. And I couldn't get academia to move faster, so I went on to build my own startup, essentially a business school for the disrupted world. And what we're doing at the Reinvention Academy, the first few years were just a pure think tank. We just did research. I had a separate business in consulting, helping companies first survive near death experiences. And once they do, create conditions in which they never need to hire anyone or they never need to be in danger anymore. It's the perpetual regular reinvention as the ultimate competitive advantages, renewal system that allows you to be super proactive and be ahead of disruption. But on the education side, we were first just doing research. We couldn't understand why companies are dropping like flies around us and why individuals are getting into incredible levels of burnout and so on. And as I'm working right now on a new Forbes article on my take on trends for twenty twenty five, the second trend that I put together is, the mass scale, of sabotage. So sabotage is going corporate sabotage is going mass scale. Let me just give you one statistic. According to Gallup, we're now at fifteen percent of a workforce that is, sabotaging their companies and their bosses. So, globally, about fifteen percent of workforce are in the state of what's called loud quitting, which is essentially sabotage. Just to give you a number, if we take as a baseline, about three point five billion people worldwide are working. Out of them, currently, five hundred twenty five million people are in a state of active sabotage. Active sabotage meaning that they're consciously trying to do something that is harmful to the business. And they're not stupid. Yeah. They're not unethical. They are so fed up that this feels like the ultimate act of justice. Mhmm. And as a person who used to be proud of my life and work in the field of strategy, which is all about longevity and value creation and meaning and purpose, I felt like I have nothing to be proud about unless I approach it somehow differently. So that's where reinvention comes from. It's a new management field. We are being now actively recognized as the new management field. So the last book, when it's debuted as a best book of the year and the best selling book, it was in the field of management science. And when I see PwC, Accenture, and many others moving into reinvention as their main position, I know we're making the Denton universe explaining to the world that just innovation or just strategy or just change is is not enough, that we need cohesion between these three relatively conflicting or competing areas in the typical corporate life. Which is which is potentially quite a nice framing for that. As I was planning for this conversation today, I threw around some of those questions. Right? What is what is reinvention? Is it just another synonym for innovation, but we've chosen a nice fancy word, or does it mean something a little bit more? I'm reading from, well, from the from the work that you've done, but also from the language you're using here that that it's it's significantly more. Right? Because I think people will talk about continuous need for change, continuous innovation. I guess, you know, the word invention and reinvention is something that is a little bit probably a little bit more problematic and challenging for certain people because it's it it is it is even more scary than innovation. I think that's that's equally scary for a lot of people. But maybe talk to me a little bit around this word reinvention. Right? What does it what does it mean? You clearly reinvented your career. Right? You left steps away from a nice comfy research role, well paid, I'm sure, doing interesting interesting work and started something, that I I get the feeling is is more than just a job. It's a it's a a a bit of a life passion, a bit like the work that I'm I'm doing at Rosoku. Right? It's it's it's a poison chalice in many ways, but you're fighting to change something, you know, is profoundly important. So what is this reinvention that you're talking about? How to frame it for listeners a little bit? So I will try to simplify it, but forgive me. I'm a nerd, so I make things complex by default. It just comes out complex, and then I need to simplify it. So we have to look at it in the multidimensional area. So I'll mention a few dimensions. First of all, innovation versus reinvention. This is the what part of reinvention. So if you think about the why, the what, and the how, and the side question of when, which is essential to reinvention, this is the what. What exactly do we do? Product, process, standard operating procedure, packaging, branding, business model, whatever you are trying to renew. If you think about it, in the past, the statistics are pretty startled, startling. In the twentieth century, the longevity of a typical business model, how long I can milk the same cash cow, was approaching seventy five years. That meant I could graduate from college, enter your company, work in your company my whole life, retire, and never see a single significant change. Only incremental. That's why quality control, Kaizen, Lean Six Sigma were so popular because you didn't need big things. You could just drive incremental change and it wasn't enough. Now our statistics, I don't have yet twenty twenty four data. Twenty twenty two data shows that the median life cycle of a business model was six, not seventy five, six. That means you cannot anymore do incremental only, but it is also not enough to do innovation only. So we got to the point where to deal with the speed of change, two things need to happen. One, it needs to be regular and proactive, not occasional and reactive. You just cannot catch up with that speed. You need to get into a cadence, into a pace, the kind of drumbeat that is unique to your company and to your industry. But second, you need a portfolio that you are dynamically renewing. So in our framework, a portfolio is nine different types of reinventions, and radical innovation is one of them. Continuous improvement is one of them, but there's seven others. And that I echo very closely with that. I I think that, you know, we, we use a similar nine nine box structure across those different dimensions in what we're talking about. And I I do feel like one of the reasonably large shifts across the the broad innovation, invention, transformation space is a is a little bit more about coming together of common language and common structures. Right? This, this world that has been a little bit too dominated by some of those large consultancies you mentioned starting to mirror some of your language, which is a positive validation for the work and and the research that you have done, probably to a degree strikes a little bit of fear in you because they tend to go away and bastardize it a little bit, right, and sort of start to break some of the things that you've been doing. And I think well, I feel like there's a real need for more common language and more common understanding around the things that that we're doing. How do how do you feel about the interplay? So you mentioned those two kind of, you know, discrete boxes at opposite ends of the explore exploits, continuum. How do we feel about the interplay between those, right, and and and how much they are discrete distinct things versus a a part of the same you talked about this DNA, right, this this sort of reinvention DNA. Mhmm. So first on the fear and, what's happening in the field. Good news, all of them moved at the same time. Literally, PwC and, Accenture moved exactly same month. So they couldn't claim exclusivity just by accident that they released this positioning exactly the same, which was, serendipity, and, I trust the ecosystem always, you know, equals things out. So for me, this is now excitement of creating a common playground. That's what Reinvention Summit is. We're bringing those players from consulting, from corporations, from academia, and most importantly, the practitioners who drive this work forward that are usually slash people. Right? They're not fully consultants. They're not fully corporate. They're not fully entrepreneurs. They're comfortable in between slash. Those are people whose LinkedIn profile has a lot of slashes in. You know? Consultant slash whatever slash whatever slash author, speaker, and so on. Innovator. Always. Yeah. Absolutely. And we all know each other. We are very we use we smell a particular way in a good way that could this is that person who doesn't fix fit the boxes but is very, very obsessed with the idea of creating progress again and again and making shit happen. I don't know how else to say. That's why when we thought about the reinvention summit, our best way to describe it is that was for doers. I don't know what else to say about that kind of event. So we got just lucky that the ecosystem protected the term so nobody could own it, and I don't wanna own it yet. I oh, ever. I want to fan the fire and keep asking uncomfortable questions to not get simplification that is stupidification. I want us to get to nuance thinking about this. Now when it comes to embedding reinvention into the DNA, my research is very clear. Your cocktail of more explore versus more exploit, and I'm drawing in my head the nine, three by three. And the explore is more radical innovation upper quadrant than our model, and exploit is more, bottom left, incremental change and all of that. When I think about the cocktail, the cocktail depends on your, timing in the cycle. So when you are in a, approaching already at the stage of a leap on your s curve, you're jumping to the next growth cycle. You cannot move chairs on the Titanic. You cannot improve standard operating procedures. You cannot do incremental change. So your cocktail should be heavier mix on more radical, more brave, more fundamental shifts, which are usually business model, which sometimes occasional market, which are often product, and some unique combination. Capital mix can be nigh in because capital is becoming very innovative space as well. Now if you go in a stage of a scale up or closer to maturity, then you cannot keep blowing everything up. You need to give your system room to solidify and take complexity and move it into a system, and that's the time for exploit. This is the time where your cocktail and it's never zero to a hundred. It's always some form of a mix in your cocktail, but your cocktail should be heavier on incremental. And that's one of the early diagnostic we do. We measure where you are on a cycle and then we'll look at your portfolio. And when the two don't match, it's obvious. You you just put two two screens two results, right, on one screen and it's obvious. You you are the stage of leap, but you're leaping like that kitten who is tiny and trying to go from table to the counter and falls in the first foot of that jump. That's pretty you're not leaping. This is not a leap. Let's be very honest. But this by the same token, and now I'm talking to you guys who are like me, like blowing shit up, do not keep blowing things up. You do need to, you know, move away and give your team give somebody else who is more administrator type, systems type, operations type, a moment to shine so that they can take all those beautiful things we blew up and built and then make it into a scalable, repeatable system, even if it's just for a year or two, even if it's just for a few weeks. But that work is equally important. And I think what we often lack appreciation for is the other party. People who are on the blow up side of the cycle, so this, growth specialist, sales, strategy, stuff like that, we tend to look down at risk managers, separations, logistics, standards, procedures as, like, they're slowing us down, and the other way around. And this is the time where we have to build respect and a system where we pass the baton. How do you think about that from a measurement point of view? I I ask this question around innovation metrics or reinvention metrics, in in this case, quite a bit. There's a stat on the website for the event, which we will come on to shortly, that says, you know, something like a staggering forty seven percent of top CEOs' time is currently dedicated to reinvention. It's an interesting data point, as you said, coming from source p w c. So let's let's let's add some some some some verification there, is that's the time that they're spending, which is actually quite staggering for me because I'm in my experience with leadership around the thematic of innovation as a capability, it's the side of desk tasks that they wish they were spending more time on, but they're kinda stuck in the day to day of mismanagement, regulation, compliance, etcetera, etcetera. Right? People people related issues and shareholder related issues, etcetera, etcetera. So first, I think the measurement side of this and how do you make it traceable and trackable is is so important, but I think it's it feels very and very amorphous to people. Right? Something that's quite hard to pin down. I would argue it's probably the most important thing we can do is to figure out the ways of tracking and measuring it. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. It is a difficult one because in my belief, it needs to be custom made. So whenever people ask me how do I know that I'm reinventing and not just, you know, moving chairs in the Titanic, My answer is very, very simple as it is extremely complex. Simple does not equal easy. Reinvention as a field of management for me is responsible for only one capital, the level of life in the system. That's all. We do not do anything else. The level of life in the system. So if you were reinventing a product and our product is more life, we've done the work. If we did everything by the book, used every tool, did beautiful things and our product has more debt, we did not reinvent. We did something else, but we did not reinvent. Now that answer makes it, requirement for people to turn on their brain cells and actually invent an index that measures the level of life in their system. Because measuring the level of life in my company will be very different than yours, different from my mining client or my construction materials client or my asset management client. Usually, it's a combo, and you need to work on creating a weighted index. So weighted comp very carefully tested weight for the components. But, usually, it's a combo that, one is a finance indicator, but it has to be forward looking. Unfortunately, too many of us are using, backward looking indicators such as a BDA, for example. A BDA is a summary of your past decisions. Why in the heck would you wanna look at that? So then we need to think about a a pretty robust cash flow forecast and preferably eighteen to twenty four months or at least twelve months so you can start looking a little bit forward with a multiple scenario. So that kind of dynamic budgeting that is rolling every at least month. So every month you can look eighteen months ahead and you are looking at the cash flow, which is an indicator and you are in real life recalculating the scenarios, that's one line of work. Even if you just stay there and build a robust system, it will save you forever. Good news, that trends that we are moving into that direction with the, with the help of AI. That even in supply chain management, if you look at some of the most interesting data on what's happening in supply chain management, which many would say is not the area of innovation. This is the boring part. You know? Why would you wanna, quote them? But one of the thing is I was just speaking to that community and I, pulled up some data for them. One of the numbers that, really gave me a lot of hope is that once corporations start looking at what's called low touch planning so this is not traditional budgeting with every line touched by a human being and verified by a committee, and it's a high touch. Low touch is AI augmented. You get eighty percent of a forecast rate for your budget. You're kind of okay. That kind of low touch budget is giving you a lot of exciting stuff around financial indicators, but then you need to look at new ideas moving from ideation to testing to, you know, all other stages of innovation all the way to capitalization. How far you've gone. And the big companies, and I know your work with Ozarko is very important there, is creating a process where we can see the pipeline from ideation to all the way to we got the cash in the bank because that idea went through the right stages fast enough and so on. I've seen good implementation of that system. I've been part of implementation. They work. You usually need scale for them. You wouldn't do it in a tiny, tiny company. So something around how fast we go from idea to yes or no to money in the bank. You probably need the human capital component as well and something else. You can look at the customer and depends on your industry, stuff like that. So that would be my thinking on the metrics, but it does, leave you with a complex answer and no quick fixes and no pills to take and no single KPI to implement. That's good news and bad news. Good news, you can never be beaten by competition because you're using a a a super unique combination of strength. Bad news, you need to use your brain and you need to develop it and implement it and maintain it. Yeah. I have a thought on that which we can take offline from today and, and chew over a little bit because I'd love to love to get your thoughts on that, and maybe there's maybe there's something we can do together as well. Let's let's let's move slightly into the summit. Right? You know? From from having left your company research world into starting a business, you and a couple of of others have decided to create a whole new event, a whole new summit around reinvention. I I assume looking back, you still think that was a good idea. But why don't we why don't we talk a little bit about about the background? Like, why why do it? Because, you know, it's no it's no it's no small b, right, trying to create a a new event in this case in Ireland as well, so not quite where you're located. So tell me a bit about that. Well, you know how, if you really knew what it is to bring up a baby, you would never jump in. Mhmm. Because just about to turn twenty one. So, now it's an amazing time. But if you really knew how it is, I think we would none of us would agree to the whole thing. It's the same with any startup and reinvention summit is gloriously, beautifully difficult experience, but it's difficult with a lot of joy. As I'm doing it with, amazing partners, one of them, who you know very well, Aidan McCullen, is an amazing, amazing thinker, author, and reinventer as a former professional rugby player who, out of all possible ways, went into transformation strategy and innovation consulting. Great. Try to make that move where most professional sportsmen actually go bankrupt within the first five years after retiring. So that's not a small feat by any means. And then we have a partner, experienced brand agency, not exactly marketing or event agency, but close, nine yards. And they are crazy about creating unbelievably nuanced experiences. So they are the people who, for one of their clients that were celebrating a a particular milestone in the whiskey production, got a field on Irish Island and grew barley for a year so that when the guests enter that field and walk through it, the height of the barley is exactly at the touch level of their hands so they get the full experience that is also tactile. And they literally grew barley for nearly a year just for that one minute experience or whatever is the walk, two minute experience for it. Yes. So that's the type of people and they're big hearted amazing people. So how did it all happen as all crazy things happen and happen out of the emotion And the idea, this incredible feeling and hunger that there is a way, a, to bring together people who feel, generally speaking, rather lonely and isolated in their own organizational realities, whether they are corporate change makers and the crazy innovators or and they're shaking the boat all the time and getting beaten for it, or they're consultants, coaches, trainers who have low power in the big systems, but they truly want to help. Or, senior executives that are going against the grain of the machine trying to actually make a difference. Or academics who are being shunned by their own community even though they're the best of the best, but their work is not as popularized as their fellow counterparts because they are working for the disrupted time, and the academic machine is still pretending that we live in low volatility environment and still churning research and frameworks that work beautifully in mid eighties and are killing companies today. So that's how it happened. It happened from this idea that there has to be a way for, a, not to separate in our separate corners. So innovation people have a conference, strategy people have a conference, change people have a conference, and where are we talking to each other. And, also, industry wise or, corner of the worldwide, academia not talking to business, business is not always trusting. Consulting, consulting, competing with each other or beating everyone else up and stuff like that. So that's how it happened. Now the remarkable things that happened that the first few months, we were just building up our own soup, and then amazing people like yourself started reaching out to us and saying, can I come? And we're like, okay. It it just very sweet, to see that there is incredible amount of goodwill and authentic care for this. So we have no clue what will happen, but we know it's gonna be something amazing because the way the design is built is that we are not marketing agency. We're doing it for ourselves to get something out of it at the end. So we have an, an architecture. We have a weave of the design. And the way it's built, it connects theory to practice immediately. So we don't want a single session to pass if we don't know what to do with it on Monday morning. And because of that, many companies are actually taking Teams and turning it into their offsites, where right after they're staying a day or two extra, and they're taking this amazing top level keynote speakers like Seth Godin or Rita McGrath, and taking their insights and saying, okay. What does it mean for our company on Monday morning? Or what does it mean for us in next few months? Or what does it mean for us in the next year? And that's the excitement that I see, that it started happening on its own. We didn't propose it. Somebody else said I'm doing an off-site. What's your recommendation for, you know, the hotel and so on to bring my team? And we're like, oh, okay. Great. So it's a very emerging strategy philosophy, and it's been a labor of love. And I think we are building something we don't truly yet understand because it no longer belongs to us. It's a it's a very communal thing that is happening, and I'm deeply honored for everyone who is playing along. Yeah. And I I don't know if you know this or not, but we don't really do third party events. I kind of got I kind of got tired of the grind of them, and, you know, always feeling like as a sponsor, you're the one paying the bills, but never really welcome there. And so this was something that we approached with some cynicism even though as you're right, I I know Aidan pretty well. But I I we've chosen to make this just like you said, our our thing for next year, and we'll bring clients along. And I like the idea of reinvention, but I I the thing I subscribe to actually most of all of this conversation is that this is a field of management. Right? It isn't a part of management studies. It's not a a skill set or a function in a business. It's definitely a field of management, and that's something that that I agree with you. Like, a lot of the teachings haven't changed in thirty, forty years, but the world has definitely changed. Not just because it's got more volatile, but it's changed. Right? And a lot of the stuff we were teaching when I was at university in business studies and I did a a master's in in business was is outdated. I know it's outdated. Right? Like, those those books have been silently moved to the side, and the next ones have come along, but they're really teaching the same things in in many, many ways. As as you've said, those those those leaders of industry, their theories have been debunked because their their businesses have started to turn the other direction. Right? Thinking about the GEs or others of this world that were very prominent case studies and and and others at the time that that I was studying as well. So congratulations on that. Who's who's who's the event for? Like, who would you say you mentioned the lonely and the isolated and and exact leaders and stuff. But for people listening out there, like, you know, other than who might wanna come for a Guinness or a whiskey in Ireland, like, what Who's it's obviously a bit of a trip. Who's who's it for? Why should they why should they come? Yeah. So we so far, seen groups of people in couple of categories. So, of course, we have executives coming with their teams. And the interesting thing about those teams, they're not a hierarchical selection. They are spirit of mindset selection. So some of them might be very junior, but these are people who get shit done. And they become kind of, in a good way, mercenaries of the future inside their companies that they are fighting to build, and sustain and assure that this company has a future. So the teams are coming in, not just, I'm just bringing my executive team. It's more I'm bringing people who get it, and they want to be equipped with a much better armor and with much better network on how to get this done. So that's corporate type of strategy innovation, change, lean design thinking. This is the type. Everyone in that category can be in very different function, So it's not one function. We are constantly surprised. Some of them are from innovation or strategy function or change function. Some of them are operation supply chain, but they're in the state where all of their management is change management. They don't do anything else just because everything is changing all the time. So that became their daily work. Now second group of people, some form of internal external consultants and coaches. And their thing is getting a lot of new, insight, toolkit, getting things off the plate, getting things on the plate. And we have a nice community of, professional reinvention, specialists, people who actually have a title of chief reinvention officer or got, much more equipped in the field of reinvention coming. We have some amazing academia. Again, I come back to Rita McGrath. I come back to Clark who was the dean of Harvard Business School. A few people from academic and thought leaders environment who are coming in to align theory and also offer a better buffet of options. So if you think about, the best all inclusive buffet you've been to, you need that diversity. Right? You need fish or meats or veggies or desserts. And the art and what the summit is about is helping us get much more sophisticated plating for each individual situation. So for one situation, you need fish and chips, and for another situation, you just need dessert and fruits. Just make sure you don't take fresh milk and combine it with pickle herring because, you know, diarrhea but that's what we're getting in corporate environment. We're mixing it methodologies and tools, and then the whole corporation is in diarrhea. And you're like, I don't know what happened. So that's the thing is can we get a much more transparent buffet of the best thinking in this field? So that and that is again anticipating change, designing change, implementing change. There's three areas, strategy, innovation design thinking, and change management implementation. Can we get from all three camps the best so that we can be much more nuanced in the way we are plating the plates every day? So that would be the main groups that are coming. We do have, exploration on reinventing countries because God knows many of us need it. And Ireland is unique in that sense because it's a country just a hundred years ago on the verge of complete collapse coming out of agriculture environment, becoming what it is. It's a massive story on its own. It's a case study for all of us. Yeah. And there's an x x s curve coming, and there's an exploration of what's next. So for me, Ireland is a land of reinvention. There was no debate for me. I'm from Kazakhstan. I live in the US. Why in the heck? I I had to fly to Ireland just for the first time because But I made that decision and incorporated the business in Ireland just because it's a it's a very, very appealing reinvention case that is scalable, that is interesting, at least at the level of a mountain, you know, huge city level. You don't even need to go to the country level. So that's why Ireland. Well, I'm very much looking forward to it. Where can people find out more about the summit and more about the work that you do? Connect to me on LinkedIn. And for the summit, the reinvention summit dot com is the easiest. You will always get newest updates, read the kind of nerdy background of the summit, but also just see who are the people who are coming. We are honored to see a very diverse group of participants coming in from companies such as Siemens and Accenture and Airbus and so many others, or Fazen Bank, and so so many others. So it's an interesting mix of thinkers. We have, in terms of our cocreators, we have keynote listeners coming in from really unique dynamic environments such as South Africa, myself bringing the Central Asian background, South Asian background is coming in as well. We don't want all of it to be talking heads. So yes to keynote listeners, yes to workshops, yes to laps, yes to hackathons. Let's try something in the moment and see what happens. Bit of reinvention in practice. Right? Good. Well, congratulations. Congratulations on ten years, I think you told me earlier, since you started your your business, and here's to the next ten years of reinvention as well. And I look forward to meeting in person in Dublin next year with with many of our customers as well. It's been a great conversation, Nadia. Thank you very, very much. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this episode, and I hope that the topic of reinvention has resonated with you. I would definitely recommend you to check out the reinvention summit dot com and also Nadia's work as well on chief reinvention officer dot com. I believe that's correct. We'll share links. There's also a great handbook up there that you can get, download access to. So please do go and do that. Thanks for listening as always. Please subscribe, and I encourage you to share. Go back and listen to some of the past episodes. And just coming out of twenty twenty four and looking back at some of the amazing learnings that we've had and very much looking forward to the learnings that we will continue to share through twenty twenty five. So thank you very much, Nadia, and thank you everyone as always. Goodbye.

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