51. Samuel West - The Honest Truth About Failure

Innovation is lonely work. Sam West built a museum of failure to make visible what organisations hide — and found it gives people permission.

Working in innovation is lonely. You're usually pushing against the culture, not with it. You're the person asking "why not?" in rooms full of people paid to say "because." You try things that don't work, often in public, and the organisation's instinct is to move on quickly and quietly rather than ask what happened and why.

In startup land there are spaces for this. F**k Up Nights — actual events where founders get on stage and tell the audience what went wrong — have become a real phenomenon precisely because there was nowhere else to say it. The relief in the room when someone is honest about failure is palpable. You can feel people exhale.

Corporate innovation doesn't have that. It has words about failure — "we celebrate learning," "there are no bad ideas," "fail fast" — but not much else. The language of failure tolerance is everywhere. The actual practice of it is rare. And the people doing the hard work of trying new things inside large organisations often feel like they're doing it alone, without cover, in an environment that will quietly hold it against them if it doesn't work out.

Samuel West, Founder and Curator, The Museum of Failure; Organisational Psychologist; PhD in Organisational Psychology, Lund University, has spent a decade studying exactly that gap. He built a museum full of things that failed — from global corporations to billion-dollar bets — precisely to make visible what organisations prefer to make invisible. The effect it has on people is not what you might expect. It doesn't make them cynical. It gives them permission. When you see that Apple, Google, and Procter & Gamble get things catastrophically wrong, something shifts. The fear shrinks a little. The risk feels more possible.

He has also, as it happens, lived through a very public personal failure of his own — declared bankrupt over the museum itself. Which gives him a credential that no PhD can provide. This conversation is for anyone who has ever sat in a post-mortem and felt like nobody was really saying what happened. For anyone who has ever killed a project and felt they had to pretend it never existed. For the person who is doing innovation work right now and wondering why it feels so unrewarding even when they believe in it.

Transcript

Intro 0:00

What's up?

Simon Hill 0:03

Uh uh uh uh Welcome back everyone to the Total Innovation Podcast. As always, I'm your host, Simon Hill. There's a museum. It has been to Sweden, Los Angeles, Shanghai, Toronto, Paris, and beyond. It is full of things that failed, products that flopped, technologies that didn't work, billion-dollar bets that turned out to be wrong. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Kodak, Pepsi, many others, some of the most admired companies in the world are in the museum, represented by things they got spectacularly wrong. And something unexpected happens to people when they walk around it. They don't feel smug, they don't feel cynical. I think they feel relieved because when you see that the smartest, best resourced organizations on the planet can also get things catastrophically wrong when they try something new, something shifts. Perhaps the fear gets smaller, the risk starts to feel possible, and people come out of that museum ready to try new things that maybe they've been putting off. That relief is kind of the point because working in innovation, really working in it, pushing against the culture, trying things that don't work, and carrying the weight of ideas that go nowhere is lonely in a way that doesn't get talked about enough. Organizations say that they celebrate failure. Almost none of them actually do. The language is everywhere. The honest conversation about what went wrong and what it cost and what it felt like, that really almost never happens. In startup land, where I spend a lot of my time, there are things like fuck up nights where founders get on stage and say exactly what went wrong. The relief in those rooms is often palpable and real. Corporate innovation really doesn't have that. It values statements and post-mortems and carefully worded retrospectives is not the same thing. So today's guest built the museum. He's a psychologist who became obsessed with the fear that stops people trying and decided the best way to tackle it was to make failure impossible to look away from. And so with that, I'm gonna stop talking and I'm gonna welcome the wonderful Samuel West to the Total Innovation Podcast. Sam, welcome.

Samuel West 2:18

Thank you so much. Great introduction.

Simon Hill 2:20

Thank you. I work on those intros.

Samuel West 2:22

They're my Yeah, I get I get like kind of a little bit impressed now. Wow, yo, yeah, it was Sam. Who you who else is on this podcast?

Simon Hill 2:31

It's just you and me today. Just you and me. Excellent. Um Sam, give us a little bit of background. You've got an interesting background, as I just said. Um, you're we're talking today, last week, I think it was. We were actually together down in sunny, sunny south of Spain. But give me a little bit of your background for people that are not familiar with you.

Samuel West 2:50

Half American, half Icelandic. Uh, spent most of my adult life in Sweden and psychologist by training, did 10 years as a therapist, uh, moved into organizational work, and got a PhD in organizational psychology focused on innovation climates, like how organizations can promote activities of exploration and experimentation. And this was through the lens of playfulness and having a playful attitude towards your work tasks. Um that was fascinating. Uh, and I got to work with some of the coolest companies in northern Europe. Uh, and even there, in these really cool innovation-heavy uh environments, uh, people were terrified of failure. Um, and that became my new obsession. And out of that, the Museum of Failure was born.

Simon Hill 3:58

Amazing. Half Icelandic, half American is a good start, isn't it? It's uh it's a nice combination in many ways.

Samuel West 4:04

I don't know. Nice.

Simon Hill 4:08

Uh so tell us, tell me, tell the guests a little bit around what the museum actually is. You know, I gave some of the locations, hopefully I got those right. I tried to check. Um, but but what is it?

Samuel West 4:19

So it it started off as a project funded by the Swedish Innovation Fund or Vinuova. Um and they saw value in the museum as a way to communicate uh the importance of accepting uh failure as a part of the innovation process. And when I designed the museum, it was only for innovation nerds. Like it was for me, it was for my innovation colleagues. It was complete nerd. I don't I could it was not meant for a general audience at all.

Simon Hill 4:58

Nerd central.

Samuel West 4:59

It was just total nerd. Um and anyone who worked had any experience in innovation, it was it was designed for them and it was perfectly, you know, um aligned.

Simon Hill 5:11

What was that? What was that Venova pitch? It's a cool thing for Venova to have funded. I like it when you get these grants to do these things. What was the vision that you laid out in this?

Samuel West 5:22

Well, I I I had I I knew I wanted to start a museum. I didn't want to write a book. I didn't, I've been playing uh with sort of how to communicate uh failure acceptance, and I didn't want to write a book, I didn't want to do another TED talk. I didn't want to, I wanted to find something sexy, something different, right? And that's difficult because it's always gonna be a keynote, a workshop, a book.

Simon Hill 5:45

It there's nothing sexier than a museum.

Samuel West 5:49

There's like nothing, there's very few mediums to work with when you have some knowledge to convey, right? And um and but then I realized like I want to do a museum, uh of course, because I have zero experience or had zero experience in museums. Um, and Vinnova, the Innovation Authority of Sweden, they uh they had an announcement out for projects that communicated innovation-relevant research findings. So it's a very dry, sort of boring call for for projects. But I was like, hey, this is exactly what the museum is. It's a it's an educational uh medium that's packaged in another in uh a completely different uh way. Uh and and they bought it.

Simon Hill 6:43

So amazing, amazing. And I think I read somewhere, I may have got this wrong, in which case it'll be my failure and not yours, that that you misspelled the word museum when registering the domain is a pretty good opening act for museum about failure. Is that is it true?

Samuel West 7:04

I mean never actually been called out on it, but yeah, it's sorry. I mean I I I uh I when I got I remember I remember when I got the idea, I was in Zagreb in um in uh Croatia, and they have a museum of broken relationships there. Um it's a really cool museum, it's it's the only museum that's cooler than the museum of failure. And they have um it's just a it's a wonderful concept of of relationships and how fleeting they are, and you you think about that. And and I was like, I I this is crazy. I love first museum that I actually like. Uh, and then I went and I uh I got the idea. I want to do a museum of failure, and I was so excited because I you know when you have a uh an idea you know is a good idea, um you I I get excited. So I went and did as you do when you get excited about an idea. I went and bought a beer, um, and then I bought the domain. And then when I got the the receipt for the domain, it says, Congratulations, you own muzumafailure.com. I'm I own a museum or two, but I can't spell the word museum.

Simon Hill 8:16

Now you have exhibit number one, though. That's pretty good.

Samuel West 8:18

I'm gonna I I still have a domain, so I'm gonna print up t-shirts at some point and say, I went to the museum of failure.

Simon Hill 8:25

Amazing. Amazing. I didn't mean to uh to start with an embarrassing point, but I think it is a monitoring.

Samuel West 8:32

There's worse ones than that.

Simon Hill 8:34

I do my I do my research, I wanted to validate it. Um so talk talk a little bit about what it what it has become. You know, like I think this might be one of my easiest podcasts because we can just talk about all the cool things that are in the museum. So we'll we'll get there. But just you know, what is what is a museum of failure? You know, given a little bit of the scene, but just you know, explain it and explain what it's become and how it's been around the world now.

Samuel West 8:56

Um it's basically a collection of failed innovations. So that was the core and still is the core of the museum, where yeah, it's it's it's mainly consumer products because those are the ones that are easiest to source um and they're the most fun to look at. Um but I try to have a a range. So there's food items, um, tech. Uh there's so many mobile phones. I could have an entire department with itself with phones. Um, gaming, um, depending on the location, we even have an adult section, um which works in certain markets and doesn't in others. Um and the whole idea is is basically to to to let these items tell their stories, uh, with you know what what what was the idea, what were the expectations for this this item uh or this this innovation, and you know what went wrong. Um and I'm fascinated because the stories are super interesting because like you think, oh yeah, failure, oh it failed, and then you can move on. No, that there are a million ways to fail. Like there's there is no cookie cutter sort of blueprint for failure. There's um an unlimited, unlimited variation, and that's what I think makes it interesting.

Simon Hill 10:19

And let's walk through them. Let's walk through them, right?

Samuel West 10:23

Yeah, let's let's go. I got I I brought some here uh for the for the podcast. We can have a have a look at them.

Simon Hill 10:28

Um failure group.

Samuel West 10:31

Yeah, how can you you can't beat that?

Simon Hill 10:33

You can't beat it, exactly. I like the humor and the education side of this, right? And I think it, you know, yeah, it it must pique people's interest. And you know, so it's been well coming up to 10 years. Next year's the 10th anniversary of this you know idea to build a museum. Yeah, um, so let's let's walk through what it's what it's gone, but congratulations on what you've built. I think we should set the scene of you know how big it has become and all the different places it's been as well.

Samuel West 10:59

Yeah, it's it it blew up. It was um literally. Yeah, literally, it was it was insane. I remember um starting there in a in a little town in southern Sweden, and I got the funding started, and we were the opening was planned for June. And in April, um I had some like I do now. I have some had some items on my conference room table in in my office, and the meet like first this the Swedish media came and they're like, Oh, this is interesting, great idea, whatever. And there was no museum, it was just stuff on a table. Um, and then in April, the New York Times did a whole page. Uh and then it just I came over. Like it was it was insanity. Um and yeah, I mean it was it was also it was perfect timing. I think if it opened today, people would be like, we can get into that later. Like failure has had its moment, like um, and but it it it exploded. And what what caught me by surprise was that I designed it for for you, Simon, innovation nerd. Uh and anybody listening to this podcast, um, it was designed for you. Um, and then what really surprised me was how it the interest from the general public um for what for numerous reasons, and then the museum grew. We had went from a collection of 60 items to almost 200, and went to Los Angeles, Shanghai, New York, um, all over Europe. Um just come out of Paris, right? Taiwan, Paris. Yeah, it's it's been basically everywhere. Um and in us in the large sort of proper exhibition, which is usually ticketed, and then in smaller versions for corporate events, it's been everywhere else. And and it's super interesting. And it doesn't seem to be, I mean, it's still going strong. So after 10 years, and very poor marketing on my part. Um so so it's fun, it's still fun.

Simon Hill 13:12

Yeah, yeah. Well, let's do some more, let's do some more poor marketing on this episode. Um, so let's some and look, congratulations, right? I think you know you find these these things, and whether failure's had its day or or not, I mean the footfall that still walks around it, we can talk about, but yeah, let's sort of walk walk us through what you know what what some of what this looks like. I think you've you've spoken about different zones, and we can definitely go to Adult Zone. I'm sure listeners, I'm curious. Let's we can go there as well. But walk me through some of the different zones and some of your favorite favorite stories.

Samuel West 13:44

I mean, we could start, I mean, we we can start with some of the c I bought some of them from I have a little um um some of the classics here. I mean, this one you know of for sure. It's all dusty.

Simon Hill 13:59

Yeah, look at that.

Samuel West 14:01

What is it?

Simon Hill 14:02

It's a classic Apple Newton. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Samuel West 14:05

So this is one of the sort of I can't.

Simon Hill 14:07

I was gonna get exam questions as well today, right? Yeah.

Samuel West 14:12

Yeah, you you if you didn't know what this was, I would, I would, I would, I would, I would in your entire yeah, like who am I talking to? Um, it's beautiful, you know, it's um 1992, 93, Apple Newton. Um, and it it's it still looks like a it's an amazing device. And the story behind this at the museum, people are lazy, so the texts for each item is quite short. People are lazy, they they can't be bothered reading about it. Um, but the story of the Apple Newton is enough. You you don't need anything else in the museum. Like this is so rich with uh with you know um history, uh, the whole story of how innovation happens and doesn't happen, all the components of a successful uh product launch or unsuccessful leadership, zeitgeist technology, it has everything in this story.

Simon Hill 15:13

All wrapped up in that. No, I agree, actually. Yeah.

Samuel West 15:15

Um so this is one of the iconic failures. Um uh so the museum, if you come into the physical museum, it's such there's there's different categories, such as you know, um uh the food category, it's called in bad taste. Um we have uh what were they thinking? That's the silly category. Like with like what the hell? What were what what how did anybody think this was gonna be a good idea? I have one of those right here.

Simon Hill 15:46

Yeah, what's a what's a what's a classic from the what were they thinking world?

Samuel West 15:54

This one is probably one of the more popular items from the visitors. Look at the back of this mouse. This is the original device. It looks like something from a horror movie. Um, it's Wall Street protests. One of those. What's those? They're called Anonymous, the happy, yeah, exactly. Um, this is the original podcast wearing that.

Simon Hill 16:19

That might have worked.

Samuel West 16:22

Yes, Simon. Tell me more about innovation. This is the rejuvenic uh face mask.

Simon Hill 16:30

That's how you stay looking so young. That's not a failure.

Samuel West 16:33

Yes, yes, yes. This is my secret. Um this is the uh why was it a fail?

Simon Hill 16:41

Why was that a failure?

Samuel West 16:43

Well, um, for a number of reasons. Um, first of all, you had to wear it 15-20 minutes every day for for a couple of months, and these electrodes here, you had to put electroconductive gel on them, strap it to your face, and shock your face for for 20. And it does. There's actual, I've I had um yeah, my I was doing an interview for Australian television live, and they it was a kind of a nice big production, and they asked me to put it on. What I didn't know is that my intern had put a new battery in. Amazing. So here I am. I put it on, and then I turn it on as a fun thing. I get shocked and I throw it out, say, fuck. Um, and then the Australian television gets angry at me because I swear, like, and it just turned into a complete mess.

Simon Hill 17:35

Um I'm disappointed that wasn't our episode now. If I couldn't min that one up as well, anyway.

Samuel West 17:41

So this was the um, this is the spokesperson, was the spokesperson for rejuvenic um from the hit show Dynasty. No, yeah, Dynasty. Yeah, Linda Evans. If you if you use this, you would be as beautiful as Linda Evans. Um do yourself a favor, uh check out the YouTube uh video infomercial for the rejuvenate because it's we'll see if we can dig it out and share it. Unbeautiful. They lay you're supposed to lay sexy in lingerie, um, and then in a beautiful house, and then you strap this on your face.

Simon Hill 18:21

It's I mean, again, this is an end-to-end sort of what were they thinking?

Samuel West 18:26

Yeah, so that's that's a good example of what were they thinking. Um, there's some other silly products like a golf club that you urine that you use to if you need to relieve yourself on the course, uh you can just unscrew the top of this hollow golf club and urinate in the golf club. I mean, also fun idea, uh, maybe questionable execution.

Simon Hill 18:52

Um I mean that's what trees are that's what trees are for, isn't it?

Samuel West 18:55

Yeah, exactly. My favorite part of the that urinal uh golf club is that it has a little uh green towel. It's called the the dis what's it called? For discretion. Um so it means that you can use it even if you play golf with lady golf golfers. It's amazing.

Simon Hill 19:22

Uh the problem the problem that never existed that didn't need to get fixed, and no one was ever gonna be using not to be fixed up with the golf club that you could carry whiskey in the top of by accident.

Samuel West 19:31

See it's it basically the same thing, just one is full, one is empty, right?

Simon Hill 19:36

Yeah, as long as you don't get them the wrong way around.

Samuel West 19:38

And we have um we have the future is not now as one category. So things that were ahead of their time or technology just wasn't um ready. This this one I also assume that you know what it is.

Simon Hill 19:54

Yeah, there's a picture of me wearing that wonderful thing as well somewhere.

Samuel West 19:58

Cool, cool. This is the Google Glass um iconic.

Simon Hill 20:04

Um it's still a very meta glasses I was wearing as well, which maybe I'm in the future now, or maybe not.

Samuel West 20:11

So have you seen yesterday or day before uh uh Snapchat released their latest uh AR glasses as well? And the entire internet's the entire world wide webs went crazy mocking him. Like, don't you have any friends? Don't you have anybody that can tell you they look stupid? Have a look at had have a look at some of the responses on Twitter. And uh it's it's I those are going straight into the museum of failure.

Simon Hill 20:42

Um I'll check it out. Maybe Johnny Ogeny Ferrari might be going in there as well if we can get it. Um maybe I hey it's too early to say.

Samuel West 20:51

I mean, the the Google Class is a fascinating story. It's it's as iconic, I would say, as the as the Apple Newton, because I mean Google, there's so much, there was so much going on at the time um with Google and the expectations were I remember I was super excited about I really wanted Google Glass, but I didn't make the VIP list of being allowed to buy one. So at the time, 2013, 12, 13, somewhere there. Um yeah, I mean, a lot has happened in um um um uh uh multiple attempts at trying to make improve and and and you know expand on the basic idea premises of Google Glass. I mean, look at the Apple Vision. Oh, exactly. That's a failure complete. I mean, it was cool, but had no same, same, same thing as uh Google Glass. Um very cool technology. Uh what are we supposed to use it for? Like, end of story.

Simon Hill 21:53

Some of the some of these you can take as, you know, I don't know whether they would call them intentional failures, but certainly, you know, can be. positive experiments as as we go through. Some are just ridiculous.

Samuel West 22:04

Yeah.

Simon Hill 22:04

And they're kind of like I like the what what the hell were they thinking? Maybe it isn't the hell, but what the hell they're thinking as much as any because you know what what were they thinking, right? Like with with with some of these or the the fully unintended accidents that um that that that didn't happen. I think you know you've you've spoken of the Alestra story in uh one of the sessions that I was in. Maybe you know maybe maybe we should talk a little bit about that. I don't know if you have that one around or not but people may not be familiar with it.

Samuel West 22:40

This is the this is a Pringles can uh with sour cream and onion and the story here is not about Pringles it's about um something called Olestra made with olestra it says on the on the can and it says 100% satisfaction 0% guilt and this was 96 in the United States Procter and Gamble launched uh their Holy Grail of food science which was a zero calorie fat substitute. I remember the hype it was insane like finally finally we Americans can eat as much junk food as we want to without getting fat. Like it's amazing hallelujah um so it was launched it I mean it took Procter Campbell almost 10 years and a lot of money to to to to develop the product and all the big brands in the states uh hopped on board uh and started making products with the Lestra and the problem was it caused explosive diarrhea that's I mean that in and of itself is kind of funny um and then you have to ask yourself the question like so is it that simple like um Procter and Gamble is a massive company with uh you know they launch hundreds of products every year um how did how could they get this wrong um they didn't actually get it wrong it's the consumers who got it wrong you're only supposed to eat five crisps like you're not supposed to eat an entire can um and that's three uh hey if it's zero calories you can eat three cans um and that's where the problems came with the the digestive problems and diarrhea what I find interesting so so you can't you never underestimate the stupidity of your end user that's the lesson learned from this um and you can't really design for all that you can you can design and anticipate a lot of that but you you just because the end user stupidity is infinite you can't really always um anticipate everything um one of the fun stories about olestra is how um the word diarrhea is not um it's not it's not nice to have that associated with your food product so the spin doctors of of of Corporate Proctor and Gamble they decided that they were gonna rebrand diarrhea um and so they rebranded diarrhea geniusly you would think but so on the cans it says may cause anal leakage yeah that made it better that's much better failure compounding failure compounding failure so it's a it's a great I mean I uh um I've spoken to some um uh people that were instrumental at or worked in innovation at Procter Gamble at the time and it they say that it actually that fiasco actually changed and improved Procter Gamble's internal innovation process I mean after such a massive uh uh fiasco they did right in sort of re-evaluating how do we actually go about our our process here so that's what I was going to ask a little bit on this and there's there's a few more examples I want to dig into and um and and unpack a little bit because there's some interesting stories behind them. But what what is the outside of you know it's good to showcase and good to sort of remember and and also just see the the humor in some of this like you know go back to the organizations and you've just given that example with with PNG I guess from your perspective but also from the company's perspectives right like what is how did how do you think they're learning from failure and how do you want your your visitors to the museum to you know beyond the sort of the fun experience sort of process the idea of failure yeah great question I mean I because the museum was designed for these people for these teams um that that still remains sort of at the core the fun parts the humor it's it's difficult to talk about failure without also seeing a bit of the fun funny humorous angle I think um but I mean coming to the museum the way I designed it was I wanted teams to come to the museum like you're working on a project it could be a software project it could be any any kind of innovation and you come to the museum have a look have you know nostalgia get some this it's fun um and then pick up on some causes of failure from a product that's not related to your your what you're working on but the principle is the same and then being able to take that and translate that into uh your reality um and that's that's worked very well um so every time there's an exhibition it's more or less fully booked uh for groups coming through um innovation teams designers anyone that's that's sort of related to this innovation ish uh ecosystem and just walking around seeing like how how other great ideas with a lot of resources and knowledge how it can still go wrong and sort of taking that and saying how you know what can we learn from I mean the the Lester's a good example like what you don't think about it when you're developing a new app or a new service you think like no no we're we're not developing a food product.

Simon Hill 28:35

No you're not but your users are still stupid like um and you have to you have to sort of you have to approach it you have to address that or there can just be significant unintended side you know consequences of you know a different demographic or of a different consumption pattern. You know for fear of getting too political you know you could argue that's true of social media for a variety of different people as well right was perhaps never the intended idea when it all began and and here we are right it's not it's not a Lestra but it some may argue it's not you know it's it's worse in many ways. So it's not going to take us too too dark too down too much down that route and probably unpack the world in in in that side it is interesting though that there's something built for you know for the nerds of the world like me and and and others um very much orchestrated around the idea of humor but sort of targeted at that customer profile but it's become more mass market right you know you've you've got people gobbling up these these stories that perhaps you know without the consequences of Olestra that perhaps wouldn't wouldn't otherwise and I quite like that because I think innovation can feel sometimes like it's not for me it's just for you know for people yeah for people that are super nerdy and super geeky um and there's a there was a story that I heard you tell once um I think it was about a couple from Barcelona and something it's just it's very human centered kind of at the heart of all of it. So you know can you just just give us a give us that yeah I love that story. It it never for me it never gets old the the first iteration of the museum in the first time we opened our in Sweden um it takes about an hour to go through everything if you read all the texts um and this couple from Barcelona were in there and they took two hours uh and then after they and I I was like okay they're are they gonna steal stuff or what's yeah and then they came up afterwards they wanted to talk to me and they were like oh thank you for a great museum and I was like ah yeah this is great thanks so much feedback and then they were like almost not teary eyed but like sort of like a little bit emotional and they said we finally decided inspired by your museum and seeing all these big big big brands and multinationals they they get things wrong when they try new things um and they try to innovate and they decided that they they own a small uh bed and breakfast in Barcelona and they told me with almost like a drum roll dramatic experience like they're like we're gonna we're going to update our breakfast menu and serve fresh fruit it's beautiful it's beautiful it is it's beautiful like for them this is a this is uh um it was a you know a pivot for them uh and the I the lesson is great you were inspired by others and then you um yeah you took it took a take a risk and you see what happens if it doesn't work you can always go back to the non-fresh fruit exactly experimentation is everywhere but it's also that that idea that that feels you know risky and scary is not dissimilar to you know the mindset of certain people inside you know various corners of professional life and and other day life as well right I think you know innovation doesn't have to be about this sort of frontier Google Glass or brand new molecule or whatever it might be right it's like doing different things for different people can feel you know complex, risky scary yeah spending extra money what will our customers think is it going to be a waste you know all those other bits and but also just you know being fearful of being wrong. So I love these very down to earth human stories that people did out of you know and the fact that studying that studying each of the plaques in detail you know like you know as we said it's kind of a shame that you for many of us our attention span is so short these days that we have to dump it terrible down to not much. Yeah.

Samuel West 32:39

Yeah.

Simon Hill 32:39

Actually I've noticed one thing like um uh executives are higher level leadership um you know they're supposed to be smarter than everyone else um and I've noticed that they are the laziest like they they expect they they expect they expect me to digest everything and to give them sort of the executive summary I'm like then you've lost the entire point of the museum like you've lost the experience and feel and I think somewhere in there though there's a that's also just a super important message to for us to process because if we're not really feeling and understanding these things, you know then we're gonna we're likely to perpetuate these errors going forward as well. And so you know you said something earlier that failure's had its day what did what did you mean by that?

Samuel West 33:32

I mean it might be just because I'm this is my you know my perspective isn't wide enough but uh museum of when it opened 2017 did the research 2016 um failure was super talking about failure in the sort of whether it's startup or even in the corporate environment it was sort of like forbidden and it was still sort of like exciting and it feels like I can I can give an example failure had had its moment when when the museum opened I was I had 12 11 offers to for book commission books about failure 11 books that's insane like uh and I was super excited so I took the the largest publisher of them all uh the most prestigious and I said yes but I was so busy because Museum of Failure was bubbling so I'm like can I can I have can I have a uh a year to write the book like yeah yeah absolutely no problem of course I didn't do it um and then a couple of it was right right before COVID I was like okay now I'm ready and then the publisher said nah not interesting anymore yeah and then and then the the publisher was like yeah look at all these books that were published last year on failure so like there was like a sort of a title wave of hey let's look at failure and museum of failure was timed I mean I didn't do it on purpose but it was well timed for that um and I think now it used to be when when I gave a keynote or I had a workshop or a pop-up museum I mean and the museum of failure were super sort of ah it's kind of risky it's we're we're doing something on the verge of what's okay in the corporate environment and today it's no longer like that it's like no of course of course museum of failure is here um so I I think at least from my perspective brought it into the mainstream is what you're telling us here it's a little a little bit more yeah it's not as you know it's not as punk and cool anymore like it's more like okay no of course we have to of course we get inspired by you know uh the museum of failures message it's not as risky anymore so I think that's a good thing that we're starting to bring failure more I think so that's that is one of the aims of the museum to have more of a better conversations about failure for more people my camera's misplaying today apologies um so there's a couple of couple of other topics I want to pull on from from the from that on that thread and maybe failure might have had its day in some ways but you know the the the level of experimentation and the amount of money being deployed in you know in lots of failure we may argue um and I don't think you're seeing a slowdown in potential exhibits so while failure may have had its day as a topic of you know selection for books or for other things in terms of you know the size and scope of the potential museum of the future like what what what are you seeing there and what does the modern world throw up in terms of you know interesting stories you know from beyond Google Glass into AI into other areas yeah I mean I I uh started uh an entire section for AI failures and it's it's kind of out of control I don't I can't manage it it's so there's so many I get so many suggestions um oh did you know my company spent 160 million pounds on this and look what we got for it uh what's what's changed I mean so on on one hand it's good I mean the yeah I mean even AI there's no difference with AI um innovate innovation within the AI as opposed to any other new technology there's gonna be a lot of waste um uh in the beginning and that's expected um what's interesting about about now is and this is a bad thing that AI is sucking all the oxygen out of the room like the amount of money being spent on AI initiatives and innovation it's it's draining the budget for other other stuff other things yeah no absolutely and that's a shame because that's kind of like oh now everybody is you know it's groupthink it's mass hysteria and groupthink and that's seldom something that's beneficial um so that's a bad thing so yes I can I have plenty of AI failures to add to the exhibition um but I do think I I'm seeing less I'm seeing less outside of AI. Interesting so it's for you it sucks a lot of the oxygen out of the room yeah it definitely does because it's um yeah I mean there's I don't mind it because I get a lot of new additions to the museum but I do think it's I don't think it's beneficial that one technology just drains everything because there is more I mean AI is fantastic and it's there's massive potential that we haven't tapped into or haven't discovered yet but at the same time I kind of feel like the companies are like if you look at the if I look at the collection of failures at the museum and these aren't you know they're not particularly AI or technology related but like the successful companies are not the ones who are first like the success the ones who may actually are had success are like third or fourth. They just did it they let they let open AI and Anthropic do their spend zillions of dollars and then once it works they just took it and then they make money out of it. And this is what I'm seeing now like it seems like that knowledge has been lost like you don't have to be the first and the best you can just patiently wait and and in AI terms you don't have to wait very long because it it it's it's changing and progressing so rapidly. That's the lessons from the the collection of the Mism of failure like there aren't there are very few advantages to being a first mover.

Simon Hill 40:11

Interesting that is that is an interesting uh observation um obviously the first movers do see those advantages as well but there are lots that that get caught up behind all of that does that does that sort of feed into this idea that I've heard you talk about of of the difference failure is not a universal thing like there's not one type of failure and so you know we could we could create I think you have created the idea of good failure and bad failure maybe that's even too crude but yeah it is yeah what do you what how do you think about that sort of spectrum I mean the the the academic part is from Amy Edmondson who who coined the term psychological safety but she has had an has an old article called the topography of failure sort of like where she categorizes failure on a on a I don't know nine or 10 point scale but they can basically be divided into good failure and bad failure and um bad failure is the failure the good failure is what we talk about.

Samuel West 41:13

It's failure done for innovation and progress where you're you know pushing things forward taking risks experimenting exploring all those activities which are prone to failure and that's good because we want more of that right the problem is we only have one word for failure and that's always bad. The good failure deserves to be treated differently from the bad failure. The bad failure is failure that could have been prevented it was predictable it was avoidable you know not following instructions uh being sloppy incompetent those those kind of activities they're never good so just an organization should continue to punish those behaviors absolutely they should be penalized but the good failures should not and I think I find myself the last 10 years this is like one slide on my keynote and I I I I always come back to this and it's probably the most important one.

Simon Hill 42:13

You can't treat these you can't treat all failures the same because they're not absolutely and I I think you know also we have to make sure we're learning from them right you know one of the things that I focused on quite a bit in in the in the expected value book was trying to find ways of quantifying failure as a balance sheet item that we could draw down off of as well and really almost because that if you can make it financial you can find a way to translate it back to the mechanics of the business in a way that forced you to remember forced you to try and you know learn from the the knowledge that you've got rather than just you know not and even if you do not having a way of of of seeing that you did remembering you did quantifying that you did as well. As always these things fly by and so we're coming tight on time.

Samuel West 43:04

I kind of want to talk about lasagna though can we do it or not funny we haven't prepared this right but uh you have no idea you have no idea what I have on my desk here so you can tell me what I don't what I haven't touched on because we literally didn't prep this either right this is my research into what you've decided to bring along so there you go. So this one this is uh Colgate lasagna um it's the only company of all two 300 companies at the museum that's threatened legal action. Um that's why I was asking if we could go there or not yeah it's fascinating um um so when I did the original research back in 2015 16 I found uh Two references to a Colgate Frozen Dinners. And how much time do we have? This is a bit You can tell the story. Okay, I can tell the story. Anyway, so uh I found references to a Colgate uh frozen dinner misadventure. Um and it was labeled 1980s, right? So I found these books, old school real books, right? Um I wrote up the story, the the text for the museum. I added it to the museum, and obviously we couldn't get the original packaging. Um so my intern, she made this very, very basic sort of replica. Uh and we just thought a lasagna sounds good. So we put a lasagna on the on the front. Um and then uh the museum opened and we got much more attention than we were ever expecting. And the lasagna got extreme attention. Um and if you Google Colgate Lasagna, this is the only thing you're gonna see, right? Um, it's not even real. And I remember uh uh getting a phone call, and it was a Manhattan, you know, New York, Manhattan um area code. So I thought, oh, this is another big media interview. So I answered all happy, right? And it was a lawyer saying, I represent Colgate. And I was like, Oh, cool. Um, can you give me the real story and can you send me some original packaging? And he's like, I've I've asked everyone involved at Kodak who has been with uh with Colgate for a long time, and he says this, we have no collect, we have no recollection of a Colgate lasagna. I'm like, okay, I know that because my intern made this, so give me the real one. We have no recollection of a Colgate lasagna, and he just keeps on repeat, like, and I was like, This is this is crazy. We end the conversation, uh, and then I add a disclaimer at the museum saying we don't know exactly how much of this is true, but we're gonna keep it here anyway. Um, during COVID, two different investigative journalists looked into the story. I had nothing to do with it. Amazing, and they found something I couldn't, which was that Colgate did indeed go into frozen foods, but that it was in the 50s, not in the 80s, and that it was dehydrated crab meat. Yummy. Exactly. So and and I and I feel like Colgate, um, I feel like Colgate really screwed up here, right? Because they can't under the damage, because if you Colgate's uh uh frozen food, lasagna, is now truth because it's everywhere, right? If they would have been cool and said, listen, let's let's it's in the 50s, hey, we maximize it's not we we fucked up in the 50s, so what? Like, you know, we're a cool company. No, um, they chose the old playbook, which was deny, you know, deflect. Um if they would have leaned into it and gave me the originals, opened up the story, it would have been a beautiful example of how to handle this in the modern era.

Simon Hill 47:27

And so yeah, it would have been the case study of in in many cases would have been amazing on all sides, right?

Samuel West 47:33

Exactly. Every everybody would have won on this, yeah.

Simon Hill 47:35

In the era we live in, where I mean, now think about the amount of sort of AI generated content that's flying about out there. What are we gonna do? Throw lawyers at everything under the sun, or maybe maybe, maybe as we go.

Samuel West 47:47

AI lawyers also, yeah, potentially, exactly. Like it's just for me, it's a good story. Uh, just like okay, so um fair the corporate playbook of yesteryear is to deny and sweep under the carpet. True, and that was possible when you controlled the media, but today you can't do that. Once once you've published something, once you've launched a product, once you've done it, it's out there and it's open to critique. And if it fails, you can't really hide from it. So, and I and I think there's some good examples of companies who've embraced that. Um rather than avoid failure, they're they've focused on uh being very good at recovering from failure. Exactly.

Simon Hill 48:29

And I think that's a great, it's a great, it's a great story on all sides, actually, right? And a real and a real lesson into the corporate side of this for you know for for the reaction, whether it's that big public thing or it's the small private meeting room with three individuals or whatever, like really getting that reaction right is is absolutely critical. Um, listen, this has been amazing. Thank you. Um our usual final question for everybody is um, because we gather all of our reading list off of all of this, and our recommendations is maybe it's about failure, maybe it's about something else, but any book or books that you might recommend other readers pick up that have you know inspired you in some way?

Samuel West 49:08

Um, I can think of two right away. Uh, one you've probably already heard of, but it's Range by Epstein. No, no, I hope there's no connection there for the other Epstein. Uh it's a fantastic book that has probably nothing to do with innovation per se, but it just kind of gives you a real appreciation for generalists rather than specialists when everything is becoming so specialized, like how powerful it is to have sort of a gener a wider approach. And I think for innovation professionals, that's even more true. Like it's better to have uh a wide approach, like um than than to be too specific. You can always buy specialized specialists, but you can't, it's difficult to buy a generalist. Um I'm for sale though. Um that's one and another one, a more philosophical uh book. Can I have two?

Simon Hill 50:10

Sure, go for it.

Samuel West 50:11

Um it's a book called Infinite and Finite Finite. I don't know, you Brits Brits say it. Infinite and and finite games. Okay. Uh it's a British religious scholar, priest, who wrote this philosophical book. It's not very easy to access or read, but it's a brilliant book on examining why we do the things we do and for what reasons. And he's divided up life into games we play. One is games of competition where there's a winner, uh, and that's like one element of life, and then there's infinite games where the game itself is what we want to continue playing, and that's I won't spoil it by saying what's what, but um, there's in any aspect, any context, whether it's corporate games or your own personal life, or any aspect of life, you can sort of categorize those activities into these two uh categories of games. One is more fun than the other.

Simon Hill 51:15

Amazing. And uh I feel like we might be playing some of those games and some of the things we've been speaking about.

Samuel West 51:20

Absolutely.

Simon Hill 51:21

Um, I love that question for all those reasons. I'm carrying the range book around in my bag at the moment. Uh trying to read it. I'm reading bits of it. I mean, it's very much my world and our world as well, right? You know, I I very much live in that world of you know, of get out of your immediate domain of an expertise area and ship shop as wide as possible into other perspectives as we can. Listen, mate, thank you so much for doing this. Um, you you you are widely available for all kinds of wonderful things, and the museum continues to tour. I don't know if you know where it's going yet next or not, but um, I'm sure people can supposed to go to London, but that those those uh plans died. You held your tongue there. Yeah. Um if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way of doing so?

Samuel West 52:06

Um email me, go onto the website museum of failure.com, and somewhere there you'll find an email address and send it to me.

Simon Hill 52:14

Amazing. Thank you so much for doing this. I love the topic of failure. I love the museum and all the things that you've done with it. Thank you for bringing some exhibits. I did well with my questions to pull out of them, I hope. Um as as always, thank you everybody for listening to this episode. Um, we have just passed 50 episodes of the podcast. When I started this, I didn't know if I was going to get that far with it. It's a labor of love, but I love doing this labor and I get amazing guests like this. So, as always, keep listening, keep giving me the feedback, hit subscribe, check out the back catalogue, and lots more exciting things to come. I'll be back with you all again soon. Keep changing the world.

Intro 52:52

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