Lynn & Tony Know
Lynn & Tony Know
Digital Chaos and Personal Balance w/@Talk2Trav
Travis Hawley, with a formidable background in military intelligence and social media marketing, brings an unparalleled perspective to our latest episode, challenging both our reliance on and our understanding of social media's pervasive influence. We promise you'll gain valuable insights into the dual nature of these platforms, as we unpack the empowerment they offer alongside the hurdles they create. From managing our children’s screentime to the staggering mental health impacts on teens and women, our conversation brings to light the significant role algorithms and advertising play in crafting this digital landscape.
Our discussion takes us into the thorny realm of media bias and the ever-evolving perception of conflict, spotlighting the complex dynamics of the ongoing situation in Israel and the power of misinformation. With Travis's unique insights, we delve into personal stories of navigating this noise, drawing parallels to his experiences in military intelligence, and contemplating the profound implications on public opinion. We examine the necessity of engaging with diverse news sources to uncover the truth, echoing the significance of military all-source intelligence in our digital age.
As we wrap up, we lighten the mood with personal pursuits for balance and connection, underlining the importance of mental wellness amidst the digital chaos. Humor and escapism become focal points, with tales of Jiu Jitsu, cultural matchmaking, and the search for new hobbies to offset the stress of a world saturated with news. Our episode closes with a blend of gratitude and humor, offering a candid glimpse into our lives. Join us for a thought-provoking journey that beckons you to reassess your digital habits and worldview.
Your hosts: @lynnhazan_ and @tonydoesknow
follow us on social @ltkpod!
Hey, welcome to the Lynn and Tony Know podcast. I'm your host, Lynn.
Speaker 2:And I'm Tony. We are both wellness coaches and married with kids.
Speaker 1:Join us as we talk about all things health, wellness, relationships, life hacks, parenting and everything in between unfiltered. Thanks for listening and let's get into it. Welcome back, welcome back. How's it going, babe?
Speaker 2:Well, we're all depressed. We all follow the wrong leads on the internet and um, we have an expert here to help us along with why we're all no wait, I'm not depressed you're not depressed. Okay, because there's good news well, what's the?
Speaker 1:season two of nobody wants. This is gonna. They announce it today. They're gonna release it wonderful so we're gonna get to see that romance play out and we'll probably just pivot our entire platform to that we're gonna just, I think we're gonna change our whole podcast to just us like live watching the episodes.
Speaker 2:Okay, I think, I think, yeah, I think that's what's gonna happen until then, we'll keep providing as much value as we possibly can, and today I feel like we're. We have a very special guest.
Speaker 1:The past 10 years of my life has spent on social media and I have a very interesting relationship with. It's like a love-hate, because obviously I love it in the sense that it's allowed me to work from home and cultivate a marketing agency and a business that allows me to be there for my kids and also be creative. But also it's very toxic and there are days that I want to throw my phones yes, I have multiple phones. I want to throw them in the ocean and live a trad wife life and make sourdough bread and be barefoot and never be on Instagram ever again. So I'm really excited for our next guest. We're going to dive into this topic. You want to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, listen, we have a seasoned professional with a unique career spanning both military intelligence and social media. He moved back and forth several times between military intelligence and social media marketing, where he achieved remarkable success, amassing over 1 million followers across various accounts and collaborating with top-tier influencers, celebrities and brands globally. Despite his accomplishments, he has grown increasingly critical of social media's role in society. His insights into the platform's use as a tool for misinformation and its potential to disrupt societal norms stem from his deep understanding of information warfare tactics. On the podcast, we're going to talk a little bit about his journey and explore the profound effects of social media from mental health and national security perspective, emphasizing its double-edged impact on the modern world. With that, welcome Mr Travis Hawley.
Speaker 3:Welcome, mr Travis Hawley. Hey, thanks guys. Well, that's heavy. Hopefully we can live up to that chat. Gpt-generated boost to the resume. But yeah, thanks for having me. I think this is going to be an important conversation. I feel that, like everyone is having at this point now, is kind of already sunken into like societal you know, societal level type of conversation as it pertains to mental health and the intersection of technology in general.
Speaker 1:Isn't it funny that we're social media people and we kind of poo poo on social media at the same time, you know?
Speaker 3:it's like I think it's the best people to do it. Yeah, we know intimately the value and the dark side. I think everyone does. But we know the ins and outs, the front end, the backend. We understand the value propositions, the mechanisms, gamification, the addictive technology, the casino features. We get, we get it. In fact, that's probably what makes us maybe I don't know, I haven't seen any studies maybe it makes us less happy 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as somebody that has personally benefited very little from social media myself, it's simply, you know, it's a tool, I guess, for me. I've never monetized myself on social media, I've never amassed a following, I've never relied on it for any part of my life other than just like, oh, I wonder what's happening. So it's interesting, it is interesting to me as somebody from that perspective, to hear people like you I don't know who I'm pointing at like Travis, like Lynn, saying we've built entire careers around this thing and here's also why it sucks a lot.
Speaker 1:And it's something that I'm struggling now with my teen. I have a, we have a 12 year old and she talks about how her friends are on social media and I'm like absolutely not, you cannot have social media until you're 16. And it's a, it's a point of contention and I'm like absolutely not, you cannot have social media until you're 16. And it's a point of contention. And I try to explain to her that it's unhealthy.
Speaker 1:And I already noticed that she is addicted to her phone. She is addicted to her screen and recently she got a bad grade and I was like, okay, no more phones. And it seems like in the past couple of days I don't know if there's a correlation, but she's in a much lighter mood. She's just more happier. She's finding different ways to entertain herself, she's using her imagination, like on rosh hashanah we didn't use screens and she was like you know, putting makeup on and and just doing other things that I have never seen her do, and I was like the this fucking device is killing, is hurting our kids, you know, and she calls me a hypocrite because I'm always on my phone yeah, she's very clever and also I think part of the demeanor shift is the fact that she's in trouble and she's trying to get out of trouble.
Speaker 1:That's also true.
Speaker 2:But but it's about it's. The point is it's a battle before we've even gotten to the point where she has social media, it's already a problem so, travis, I want to know, like your story, like how did you get into the social media space?
Speaker 1:Like where, where did that happen?
Speaker 3:Oh man, um, so it was by accident. You know, um for sure I can give you kind of the the pivotal time. So I went to Afghanistan in 2012 and I've always been like a power social media user. I would say kind of you know, introverted person who loves technology. So I've been using what I would call even like pre-social media or you know kind of the initial type of websites AOL, aim, messenger, myspace, you know before that. So I've always been very drawn to it.
Speaker 3:And then in the military, I used social media a lot because I was away from home. But in 2012, on my way to Afghanistan, I had to do pre-deployment training in a National Guard base in like Indiana or something, and we had like a couple of weeks of just like a lot of downtime, by the way, and I just started a, at the time, a meme page on Facebook and that was like my first real start in being what we now would call like a creator or something or an aggregator, um, influence or whatever. Um, to me they're all dirty words now, but um, and the long story short with that is, I started curating and creating content on Facebook initially and then 2013, even more on on Instagram after the acquisition by Facebook of Instagram and I started building what you might call meme pages. Now I have three of those, and that's where most of my following actually is is on kind of meme pages built around communities, really, or topical issues, and that's how I started in 2012, 13.
Speaker 3:And the long story, short with that, is I had a friend I'm from Silicon Valley, by the way, like, born and raised in the Bay area and one of my friends is a recruiter for all the tech companies. Um, this is 2014 and you know, I had only a few thousand followers or something, I don't even know. I barely had anything. And he basically was like hey, it seems like you have a knack for this, and I was out of the military at that time. And he's like hey, put together a resume. You know, maybe I can get you a job in social media. And I'm truly so naive at that time I was like a job, Like I truly didn't even think that people were doing social media for a living. And he's like, oh, yeah, I recruit people to do social media all the time. And I was like, wow, I never even considered that. And since this is now, you can think this is 10 years ago it was still fairly novel and fun and exciting and innovative. I think those days are gone.
Speaker 3:However, I got the job. Don't ask me how I got an entry-level job into what is now known as the the highest grossing mobile app game video game company in the world. We actually moved into Facebook's old headquarters in Palo Alto. So that was my start. I got a lucky break sorta in in uh as a entry-level social media manager at a at a gaming company, and then that just skyrocketed my career and I got to work with celebrities and influencers and big brands and it just went out of control at that point, which is amazing. So I just kind of fell into it, stumbled into it, didn't even try and you know, right time, right place had some of the skills to get an entry-level job and then from there you know.
Speaker 2:Did you work for Candy Crush?
Speaker 3:No, but they were one of our greatest competitors at the time. Actually, yes, so our competitors depending on the demographic, candy Crush was more on the female, so they weren't direct competitors. They were competitors on the highest grossing charts. Our direct competitor was Supercell, a European company that does Clash of Clans, so it was a war game, so that was more of our competitor. They were the casual version of our war game, literally called Game of War. So you probably saw those commercials everywhere. We were just absolutely drowning the world in commercials at of war. So you probably saw those commercials everywhere. We were just absolutely drowning the world in commercials at the time. So, um, yeah, Fascinating.
Speaker 1:And at what point? When you were starting in the social media business, where did you kind of realize there's an issue here.
Speaker 3:Like this is not healthy to realize there's an issue here Like this is not healthy.
Speaker 3:That's a great question.
Speaker 3:I think it's gradual I'm not sure if there was a point, but certainly I would say mid-2010s, right, 15, 16.
Speaker 3:I think if we were to point to one area that a lot of people could agree on as well, that we felt a shift, was the election, the first election of Donald Trump versus Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 3:So 2015 would be a fairly fair area to start when it comes to just the toxicity of traditional media content now being distributed on social media, and then the political nature of that, the divisive nature of that, and then also the weaponization of social media also, I would say, really was proven around that time as well, as it pertains to foreign actors using information, warfare, misinformation, disinformation, malinformation to divide and to destabilize the Western world. And at the same time though this was about 10 years into social media right, you could say around 2005, myspace to 2007, facebook, so about maybe 10 years later um, this is when the real weaponization started, um and so, and also you can, after 10 years of hardcore social media use, you could also there's plenty of studies on this you could already start to see the trends of mental health declining, particularly with teens and women or girls declining, particularly with teens and women or girls Interesting.
Speaker 2:Do those studies address why? I mean, I can make some guesses, but what do the studies point to as to, why women and girls are more susceptible.
Speaker 1:I mean, I could tell you, you're comparing, you're seeing women with six-pack abs two weeks after giving birth, like what the fuck you know it's seeing people with more money and more stuff and Chanel bags and doing like you know. You have influencers doing like shopping hauls and meanwhile people can't afford the groceries. It makes you feel like shit. It makes you feel horrible, absolutely, and as and especially as girls in the high school age. I can't even imagine like I had a tough time being a girl in high school with no social media. I imagine being a girl in high school with social media, with, you know, people making fun of you and, uh, not having enough followers or or, or this you know, culture of comparison, of like numbers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I, you know, I'm a 41 year old woman and I, like I've been in I I don't like the word influencer anymore, but at a point in my career I was an influencer and I would go to these like influencer type events and and I would generally go to like meet people and network and some at some of these events, these girls would just compare numbers oh, like, how many followers do you? And like it just makes. It puts you in a box and and like nobody talked to each other and everybody was on their phones and everybody. And yeah, I understood that it was a network, it was a you know influencer thing where we had to take pictures and take videos and that was was expected of us. But there was like no, these girls were not capable of having any sort of social interaction, like socially dumb. And I was just like, ah, this is not for me, you know. So that's right. I mean, I think I yeah, those are.
Speaker 3:Those are definitely some of the reasons. I think the last one was one that seems to be, at least from my research and watching documentaries on this and other people who study this explicitly also a big factor, at least for women and for teens, is the cyberbullying. So, you know, when we all grew up, right, you didn't take school home with you. Right, if anything, home could be some kind of refuge from bullying. And now it follows. It follows you home if you have social media. And and then, like you said, look, there is many dimensions to this, whether it's whether it's the comparison culture, like you said, or the social currency culture, whether it you know, about followers and comments, likes, shares, all the different metrics, views about followers and comments, likes, shares, all the different metrics, views, or it's actually bullying people as well.
Speaker 3:Right, putting certain emojis in, you know, messages or comments, the Social Network, netflix, that documentary that was licensed by Netflix is an incredible bird's eye view of this phenomenon and you know it touches upon not just what we're talking about, as it relates to mental health and stuff, but it also gets into what Lynn and I know very, uh, very dearly. I'm not sure if you do, tony, how much you're into the marketing, as much of the social side, but the mechanisms behind advertising and how advertising creates the incentives for social networks, and those incentives drive algorithms and those algorithms drive the type of content we're going to be exposed to at scale, which influences our social media. It is all connected and it all comes from the incentives and it all stems from how these companies make money, and that's another can of worms we can get into if you want or don't want to, but really that's what is driving it. If you look at the actual root cause, it is the business model.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I watched the Social Network documentary and I have a marketing degree, so I mean a lot of what was brought up in that was, I mean it made sense Like in my marketing brain, like part of me was like that's genius.
Speaker 2:And then obviously the reality of what takes place after all, that is like that's horrible. But I understand that at a point when all of this was evolving, that simply people were trying to build something that kept people's attention, because that's what's being traded on social media, right, and at some point. What I'm curious about is, now that there's at least some awareness around how damaging it is there's enough information out there and studies that have been put forward that at what point do the people that are incentivizing this behavior go oh, I'm not just like building business. Now what I'm actually doing is quite damaging. Now what I'm actually doing is quite damaging. I'm wondering where that switch starts to flip when the reality of we have enough data at this point to understand that what they're doing is quite dangerous. And how do we get over the hump of that?
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, it's not in their best interest to admit that, to believe that or to act on that, because they're going against the interest of a publicly traded company that is held to a standard of infinite growth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they don't care. They don't care about us.
Speaker 3:Even if they did care if we remove our intent or morality or anything. Just remove that. Just remove that. Even if they did, it is not in the best interest of the stakeholders of the company because it would drive revenue down, guaranteed by reducing time on app, time on site, therefore advertising revenue. So it's against all interests. So that brings us to reality, a sober reality, where there's only a couple other options to address this, and they're not the greatest options. So, for example, first of all, there's education. I'm less enthusiastic about that, not that it's not important, but education is less strong than our instincts and our instincts are going to be driven by addictive gamification methods. Right, so you can educate someone all you want. I mean, I know all about health and diet. I'm still overweight. Like education is not enough. At scale, always want to have, because you certainly don't want to create an even more bureaucratic, bloated government, and always giving government power isn't always the solution either. Regulators can also be co-opted and captured. However, if you look at other things, like cigarettes, look at things that are proven to be harmful if used at scale, or as habitually, cigarettes, certain kinds of foods, even dangerous things like hazmat oil. Water like water contamination, doesn't matter what it is, they're all regulated. So why isn't social media Like?
Speaker 3:Even to a libertarian or someone who doesn't want big government, you would admit there is a time and a place for regulation when it comes to public safety and it comes to the health and well-being of the population. So regulation, I think, is a big one. We need policies, we need laws, and those have started. I like that. Of course it's a slippery slope, to use that expression, because if it's not enforced then it doesn't matter. It can be overdone, it can unintentionally cross the line on our constitutional rights, like free speech and things. So it's a messy, it's a very messy area. I happen to think well, we got to try something. Even if we're just slowly chipping away, we got to do something. I think it's a I mean to use a word actually accurately, it is the mental health related aspects of technology, the Internet and social media as a subset is a pandemic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, okay. I want to talk about a little bit, because it's a lot to process, but I want to talk about the last year and you're I know that you're a member of the tribe.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um. You were in Israel on October 7th.
Speaker 3:I was how?
Speaker 1:what was that Like what? What happened when you were there?
Speaker 3:Oh man, you know what's wild. If you look at my feed, my Instagram feed, like anyone before, let's say, pre-october 7th, it changed. But if you look at mine pre-October 7th, I was in Israel for I was going to stay there for three months and this was like week five or something. I don't know. The couple weeks before, all of my videos are talking about exactly what we're talking about right now Mental health on social media, gamification, propaganda, misinformation. You know social media, you know as it pertains to mental health. That was all my content like legitimately. And then October 7th happens, and then October 7th happens and I basically dive into the darkest depths of the internet. I mean, we all did right, but not just digitally. But you know, being in Israel was, it was super scary. I'm not going to lie like I don't want to. I'm not here to sound tough.
Speaker 3:I didn't grow up in Israel, where some or many people are sort of used to it, um, which is sad, a sad reality. I'm not used to that Like being under, you know, the Zeva Dom, like the red alerts and, um, the sirens, air raid, sirens and things like that. On October 7th I actually stayed up that night till like 3 am or October 6th. I stayed up till like 3 am or something, I don't know. I went out or I don't even remember, but I was up late, so I slept and I woke up, you know, when the sirens went off. Whenever that was, it's like 7 am, 6, 30, I don't. You know, I don't know exactly. I was in south tel aviv and and it was actually so faint that I just went back to sleep. I didn't even like it wasn't loud, like for whatever reason, it wasn't loud enough that like I was like questioning it. And is that because I'm so not used to being there during those air raid sirens? I honestly didn't even think it was possible. So I went back to sleep. I don't know how long I slept.
Speaker 3:Then I wake up in a couple hours and then it's like chaos. I'm just hearing everyone outdoors like pick up my phone and turn on the tv and I see what's going on and um, yeah, I'll be honest, I was um, it was kind of a little PTSD because while I never experienced that in Israel, I did experience that in Afghanistan. So in Afghanistan we have this on base, we have a, we have the air raid sirens and you run into a concrete shelter, or if you're indoors, you stay indoors and you know. So I actually have some of that PTSD from doing that in Afghanistan.
Speaker 3:But this was more scary because now that I've reflected on and even a few weeks after October 7th I reflected on it it was I was in more fear because I didn't sign up to go to war like I did in Afghanistan and be in a war zone and be on a military base.
Speaker 3:I'm in an apartment in South Tel Aviv, so your sense of safety is actually it's so flipped upside down that the fear level I had was much higher than even in Afghanistan, which is crazy Now, given I wasn't infantry in Afghanistan, so I can't speak to that. I'm sure that's different. I'm sure that's different. So, yeah, and then it became not just an existential threat physically, but then you know you go online and you're seeing all of the death right and the reality, and it's nonstop, of course, and it's your entire, what I call your digital diet. So then everything I'm consuming digitally is a nightmare, and then when I'm not on my phone, I'm truly on like eggshells or whatever you want to call it, pins and needles at any given time, just expecting there's going to be an air raid siren yeah, that's intense.
Speaker 1:That sounds intense. Did you come back to the states like a few days after, or did you stay there?
Speaker 3:yeah, I did um. I I intended to um, but some people convinced me not to Um, so I left like five days later or something like that. Um and partly was I started making all this content. I wasn't some influencer or something I still am not but I started because of my background, also in military intelligence, and my audience at the time was not Israeli and Jewish Okay, so I'm talking to like people who are not really have anything. They don't know nothing about this conflict really.
Speaker 3:So I started making educational content, talking about, you know, hamas and Hezbollah and Iran and just all of the nuances of it from a national securities perspective. Just started making educational content. And I'm not Israeli, but in a Hebrew word, they call that Hasbara, which is like an advocacy type of person, so like kind of unintentionally, organically and entirely unofficially kind of educating people on social media. Some, some people were like, thank you, but you could, you can do that at home. You don't need to be in Israel to do that. So you're an American citizen, like, why don't you just go home? You could do your, you could do this content maybe better, as you're not having to always think about going to the bomb shelter, so that, and and also speaking with some people in the security apparatus in Israel, you know we were actually like a security people were actually more fearful of Hezbollah at the time than we were of Hamas.
Speaker 3:I explicitly put that in all my videos too. Like, yeah, what Hamas did was obviously a nightmare of all nightmares, but after October 7th the fear was more about if Hezbollah decides to go, push all the chips in and go all out. This is going to I hate to say it, like no offense to anyone, all respect it would make October 7th possibly be minuscule in comparison, had Hezbollah tried or surprised us with all its might. So, with that looming threat and thinking about I can do, you know, I can do. You know this digital education content and reporting probably better when I'm not under duress or whatever. So I decided, okay, ultimately to go home a few days later.
Speaker 1:What was your reaction? Going online and I think a lot of Jews expected support and people you know the world being horrified and what was your reaction? Seeing the pro-Palestinian protests like literally people on the streets? You know people screaming gas, the Jews and just like this, you know all over social media, people celebrating October 7th. What was your reaction? Were you surprised?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's actually a great question, because when I got home I made some, I was back in Israel. I felt more safe in Israel under the rockets than now I do at home in the US, considering what I was seeing in the streets, and I mean that that's how I felt at the time. So, yeah, I was shocked. I mean, how could you not be shocked? Certainly there are Jews and Israelis and allies, if you want to call it that who have been much more involved in the countering the BDS movement and all this anti-Israel stuff for a long time. They were probably less surprised than me, but I was definitely surprised, um. I. I certainly didn't, um, expect widespread support on the on the longterm. But if, again, a lot of things are not so shocking with hindsight the benefit of hindsight because, if we think about the climate that was created in part by Kanye West, the year or two leading up to October 7th, anti-semitism had already started bubbling up and becoming more accepted on social media, more accepted on social media. So, from an intelligence perspective, now, with the benefit of hindsight, you could see this threat was looming and this threat would be in the information space, social media and the internet, where seeds were being planted for quite a long time of doubt and insult and hate and accusations and misinformation and disinformation, that when there was such a flashpoint event that could ignite all of those, I suppose in retrospect it's not entirely surprising. Yet we're still baffled to this day, I think, no matter what widespread acceptance of anti-Semitic viewpoints and the normalization of those that hate speech online and in person, and then, of course, the protesting and I don't even know if I'd call it protesting, but protesting at Jewish businesses to this day and synagogues protesting at Jewish businesses to this day, and synagogues. So yeah, it definitely made things so much worse.
Speaker 3:And again, I can keep going forever. Feel free to interrupt anytime, but one of the things that a really interesting point that someone made recently which I happen to agree with and it's okay if no one else agrees but all of Israel's wars previously have been very short. We're talking six-day war, couple weeks, few weeks, all of them. And this this person made. It was really neftali bennett is the one who made we listened to this podcast too.
Speaker 1:I was like I feel like I heard this recently, yeah, and it's like a slow drip.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so not to recap the entire podcast with him and Jordan, but I'm not surprised that with a protracted, as he said, war that we're in this really, really terrible dark place Because there's just there's been no point for any of us to breathe, so we've been under this dark shadow of just war and hate speech for so long. I'm still absolutely I don't think any of us are really out of it. You can't. As long as the war is going on, anti-semitism will be at at the at its peak, but I also believe, and I'm certain, that it will significantly drop whenever the war does end.
Speaker 1:I hope so, because it's a very long year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead I had two things stuck out to me, and one was do you think that, based on Israel's track record of war and how short it is, that also Hamas was counting on it being shorter? Also Because I feel like they weren't prepared for a year-long war either. Even this sort of the way that the propaganda has been put out there and adopted, it wasn't prepared for a year-long like propping up that story for a year either.
Speaker 1:And I'm wondering if you think I don't know if I agree with that. Actually, I think it's about. It's not about land, it's an extremist, you know, religious terrorist group and they want to expand the ideology and the longer it goes, the more people are continuing to. You know, like people america are turning to, like white, blonde, shit. It's like crazy. They're like wearing keffiyehs and and you know, going to these protests and they just they want to just keep themselves, like you know, relevant. It's like j-lo just trying to stay stay relevant?
Speaker 3:well, I will, though I'm not sure anyone has that answer. They may or may not. If anyone, it might be the IDF, but I would argue that Hamas didn't expect a long war, but that they're prepared for one. But that they're prepared for one, and the evidence I would give you is I also think I think a lot of people think this, but that October 7th was probably more spectacular than they would have even dreamed of as well. But the tunnels are built for a reason to hide out for long periods of time, to have a city within a city.
Speaker 3:Hamas is definitely playing the long game. In fact, all of our adversaries play the long game. Our meaning, I would say the West, us, israel, europe, doesn't matter. They play the long game, whether it's the Islamists terrorists, whether it's Russia, including Iran, north Korea, china. I also would say this though Sinwar, if you know some things about him, was in prison in Israel, learned Hebrew, understands the system, understands the politics, understands the power of propaganda, disinformation and all this stuff, understands the power of propaganda, disinformation and all this stuff. I think to some degree they know he knows the longer.
Speaker 3:Any type of conflict wars over the long term, and this is a multi-decade preparation, what we call the preparation of the battlefield of propaganda, misinformation, bds movements, organizations getting into academia, getting into government. This has been going on decades. So they're prepared for, let's say, the public opinion in the long run to turn on Israel. And that's why I happen to agree with Bennett that had this been a couple weeks or something, whatever and I'm not criticizing anyone, but just the reality is, the longer it goes on, it worst, it's worse for jews in israel now in the last year.
Speaker 1:Let's talk specifically with the internet and social media. Um, I think for me the biggest surprise it wasn't surprising that we you know people hate us, it's not new. But to me what's surprising was mainstream media just completely denying facts and just spinning everything. And you know, I never thought of myself, of like some, like the type of person I would say I don't trust the media, or I can't read the new york times, or like, oh, I'm gonna watch fox, like I find myself watching fox news and I'm like what, what? How can you, can you like? Was this also a shock to you in the like last year? And how how can like somebody who's listening? You know, how do they know what to trust? Right? How do they know where to get their information? How do they know if it's accurate or not? Like, like. How do you determine that?
Speaker 3:I knew this was going to come up. Yeah, this one's hard Um so uh, I guess it's not entirely shocking, because this is actually where there's some irony in the anti-Semitism, or, let's say, some holes. Because they say Jews run the media. So why isn't the media disproportionately in favor of Jews, including the Jewish state, disproportionately in favor of Jews, including the Jewish state? You can't square that circle. So just one example of something that is absolutely demonstrably hypocritical for them to say that. But the media in general? Again, I try to stay away from politics, but the facts are the media tends to lean left and the mainstream media tends to lean left and progressive, especially in the last 10, 15 years. The progressive standpoint on a lot of different topics, but including israel, is the whole victim verse, victimizer, occupied, occupier, all this. This is this dichotomy of the world. So when israelis are painted as white and they're painted as a colonial entity and displacing darker skinned people, of course, that shows their lack of education of dark skinned.
Speaker 1:Jewish people. But that's the thing. These are journalists. How do they not? You know what I mean. How do they not know?
Speaker 3:It's no different than social media. Once you have an audience, you're going to pander to that audience, and that goes for social even people we all know and to a degree, maybe even ourselves. There is a muscle memory to when you develop an audience to make sure they get what they want. And what they want is confirmation, confirm, confirmation, bias. So it doesn't matter that people are professional. I hate to say it. That is. The problem is the need to feed the beast that is their followers and their revenue generation. If you are counter to your audience, what happens? You lose your audience and then you lose your money. And I don't think I'm I'm being optimistic. I don't think most people in media or influencers or whatever creators all these stuff are evil or greedy. I think a lot of this is done unconsciously, and so the left media is certainly isn't going to entirely take the opposite point of view of their established audience. That's not good for business.
Speaker 1:So I think that's one point Somebody is like an editor and a writer like sitting in a fucking room and they're like no, that sounds too good for the Jews, you know, or too good for the like. That's like. What I can picture is like OK, what do you want to title that? What do you want to put as the headline?
Speaker 3:Like no, I don't think that's again. I could be optimistic, but some of the headlines are wild.
Speaker 1:I wish I had like some examples, but some of them are like, like nuts.
Speaker 3:Yeah, uh, me and Stella talk about this a lot, um, and when I send her stuff, she sends me stuff as well, and especially from AP there's certain. So to answer your second question, by the way, of how we can try to find truth and things of that nature, there are established media outlets that, in general, historically, are credible for the most part. There's no such thing as any perfect outlet Credible for the most part, honest for the most part, respected. On Israel there's an exception, because this is where I try to contend with people we all know who kind of like to say don't listen to mainstream media anymore. Well, here's the thing throwing the baby out with the bathwater, you know, using that expression, isn't the solution either, because there are certain pockets where you can see massive bias, or whether it's intentional or not. So here's some kind of I don't know approaches to help decide this. So, first of all, actually another great person.
Speaker 3:I will take some learnings from someone who I may not agree with politically but philosophically Yuval Harari. He talks about how truth is. He didn't say this word, but it's laborious, it takes work to find the truth right. That takes effort, takes research, it takes education, it takes strategy, it takes. It takes self-awareness to, at least to the extent possible, set aside bias or identify bias. So here's the thing Truth takes effort.
Speaker 3:People need to understand what are biases Like. I can't tell someone how to know whether a media outlet is true or not, or that they can trust it if they don't even understand what a bias is, how to identify one. What are the most common ones? Secondly, look at track record. You can look these things up. Are they, historically at least, accurate or trusted? That certainly doesn't mean they will always be, as we know in this case. Are they credible? Mean they will always be, as we know in this case? Do they? Are they credible? What is their methodology? What are their sources? What are their political leanings? Right, there's, left, right and center.
Speaker 3:One of the things I try to tell people, and this is what I do a lot, and I and I want to shout out a a new website or app that is sponsoring everyone. Now, I'm not sponsored by them, by the way, but ground news, have you guys seen this? This thing everywhere. Wow, it's such a smart idea. I or app that is sponsoring everyone. Now, I'm not sponsored by them, by the way, but Ground News, have you guys seen this thing everywhere. Wow, it's such a smart idea. I wish I thought of it. Ground News is a news aggregator website and app, but it aggregates any story and it shows you all the outlets and what their biases are. Is it left-leaning, right-leaning? How many? Quantity versus quantity? So you can see the blind spots. You can see the disproportionate reporting it can. It can give you context to the news and I love that. I'm like, wow, that is such a great idea. It doesn't fix everything but that's what's up.
Speaker 1:I said I'm influenced. Now they should sponsor you.
Speaker 3:They should. I think it's a great idea, and now others are copying it. But that shows you the quantity and quality. You can see how many outlets are reporting on something, and then also where they are on the political spectrum, and that can say something. That can say something about their values, what is important to them, what do they prioritize. It can show their blind spots and it can show their bias, but, again, that doesn't tell you what's true or not. Right, because just because there's a left-wing bias on a story or a right-wing bias on a story, that doesn't mean it's not true. Right, because they have different values and different business models, so they are monetizing that worldview. So this is why it's complicated.
Speaker 3:So I think the best way to find truth is to educate oneself on these type of mechanisms, the business models where they politically lean, the volume of the reporting, a credibility and another one, I'll add, is kind of recency, which there is a recency bias as well, though is understanding like has this been? Is this a new story? Is this an old story? Does this story have a history? You want to look into, to understand it more in depth? It's a mess and, as you can tell, everything I just ranted about is it's heavy. It's like wait what I have to do all of that to find truth? Or at least let's just say get closer to truth. It's like, yeah, and as we look back on, we're talking about social media and algorithms, right, how we get our content and our news. Now it's in opposition to that. The culture we have and the technology we have is completely in opposition to the methodologies we need to actually find truth, and that's why we're in a crisis of truth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. This is the reason why that app is so brilliant is because, when you're describing the process that goes into actually coming close, at least as close as possible, to the truth, the biggest cost to all that is time, and nobody wants to spend the time to do it. So that, in a way, is what makes that app brilliant. The other part of Wait.
Speaker 1:I want to know, though who do you trust? Who do you look for for news?
Speaker 3:Who do you look for for news? No one. So I think it's not about trust For me what I try to do, and I'll give you sort of an analogy why. You know, in the military and outside there's something called all-source intelligence, okay, and in intelligence there's many sources of intelligence Human intelligence, signals intelligence, electronic measurements intelligence. There's communications intelligence, there's open-source intelligence, there's all these disciplines, okay. Well, an all-source intelligence analyst isn't a person who, well, they may have a discipline. What they do is they aggregate, they get from as many sources as they can. So someone who works in one of those disciplines makes intelligence reports because they're specialists in that, and that's great.
Speaker 3:Let's talk about what's happening in Gaza, or something. Well, to really understand what, let's just say what Hamas's intentions are, let's say. Let's say you know their abilities and intentions, capabilities and intentions. Would you just believe one source of intelligence? Well, probably shouldn't, right? So I take that same framework for news. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Some are completely BS, and hopefully people know what parody or satire places are, or ones that are extremely clickbaity. And others again, even the ones that we were not happy with recently CBS and AP and stuff on average are fairly credible and that's reducing. I think we can argue Multiple sources, what we call all-source intelligence. Take the same mindset. It's not about truth or who you trust anymore. Get as many sources as you can and understand. Maybe the truth overlaps from those sources. And if you're going to, if you're even going to take away something from the news, a belief, try to take away where there's overlap among stories from across the political spectrum.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I cut you off. What was your question.
Speaker 2:I don't remember the follow-up. Oh, I do actually.
Speaker 1:So sorry, I'm like word vomit, like questions, just fly out of my mouth.
Speaker 2:That's fine, I don't remember.
Speaker 1:So in the last year, how do you because I, you, I, you know, we're, we're in like a group, chat together and I and I think one of the reasons we wanted you here is because you're very, you know, like you, you have like your boundaries, and when people just say like, oh, this happened or this happened, you're like where's your source?
Speaker 3:yeah, and that doesn't earn you any friends because, let's be honest, we're also in an echo chamber and that's okay. Communities are echo chambers, so I don't think there's anything. There's no solution to that exactly, other than to be in a few other echo chambers, hopefully. But yes, people don't want to be challenged. That's the problem, right, and part of human nature and how our brains work is holding on to beliefs is way more efficient. So if you tell someone that's contrary to a belief, a position or information that they already have, it's very uncomfortable and, in all fairness, if someone challenges you publicly which a group chat can feel that way, including myself you may feel attacked and get defensive. I certainly can feel that way too. That way too, it's it's it's it's it's problematic. But there needs to be some kind of mechanism, process before we just spread stuff. Because if we're going to complain about propaganda, disinformation and hate speech and bias and all this stuff, but then we're just going to do the same thing when we see a story that resonates with us, emotionally, triggers us, or we want to believe, or it's outrageous, and we're just going to spread it too, then we're just contributing to the problem and maybe because of my background. I don't want to do that, at least to the extent possible, because for me, publicly speaking out against propaganda, disinformation, misinformation and all the like, I'm not prepared to be a hypocrite to the extent possible. So I think what's important is, people just slow down before you push something out, at least widely.
Speaker 3:I mean, sharing something in small circles is one thing, but in a group chat, let's be honest, things are flying out. I'm sure. Um, if it confirms a bias or something, or it's gonna, I hate to say it doesn't matter what group you're in if it's going to get views and clicks and and rage bait and all this type of stuff. So, um, yeah, I don't mind being that person because, frankly, I rather be respected than liked. And again, that doesn't make me the most popular person, but I understand, I'm very self-aware of my contribution to the world and it's not to be popular. I realize that. But I do want to feel valuable and I do appreciate when people come to me and ask me hey, check this, do you think this makes sense or not? Like tons of people do that. It's actually out of control. Now I can't even keep up, but I actually prefer that. I'd rather someone come to me to, you know, layer a methodology of truth to the extent that's possible, then come to me with. Let's spread these rumors and and and whatnot.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of how I see it I mean that's the right way of going about it, like I like. When somebody posts something, I'm like, wait till travis answers, we'll see if it's if it's right or not? You know, know, like we wait for, for your response.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't want that to be either I'm like, I'm not, I'm not the litmus on on truth, but what I want to be known as, as as as something that a filter. I don't mind being a filter, that's something that can be pushed through, but I'm not the arbiter of truth, without a doubt, because I also have my own biases and faults and things of that nature. But yeah, I think that's what's important. Like, let's get nerdy for a second here. Think about the scientific method.
Speaker 3:It's also infallible. I mean, it is fallible. It's not infallible, but the process gives us confidence. At least. If you push something through the scientific method, the degree that we can trust it and bet on it is exponentially higher than not putting it through Right. So, again, the same thing we learned during COVID and all this stuff too it's not that science can also be corrupted or biased. It certainly is. So I think that's what's important is to at least create imperfect systems that at least you can push information. You can push information, you can push information and experience through them. So at least the output is of quality of some nature. It's not about being infallible or being the truth, but it's about having confidence, a higher degree of confidence in it.
Speaker 1:Let's talk now a little bit about the mental health aspect of all of everything. Right, it's kind of tie it all in. It's been a really hard year. It's been even harder. It's you know, social media has always been hard and it has its challenges. Now you tack on the like existential threat and it's just seeing just violence all day long and I see maybe 10% of good stuff and the other 90 is like craziness. And then sometimes Tony sends me like funny married people memes which I really love, like the reels and stuff. Those are super. Or toddler I love toddler slander Like if the internet was just toddler slander and like animals, we'd be good, We'd be real good. So it's been intense, Like how do you take care? Or how do you take care of your mental health? And how can our listeners take care of their mental health during their time, Especially if they're Jews and this war is affecting them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, this is something I'm very passionate about too and I've I've even mentioned this in our, in our group, and it doesn't seem to go over well, but I tell people privately because we're addicted to doom. We are addicted to doom it. It sucks that this is the nature now of social media, which initially was traditional media, is it's the most negative? Salacious, emotional content rises to the top, not the healthiest, with the most levity and the most utility. And again, we spoke about in some reasons why that is algorithmically in business models. There's a few things. There's a few things. There's a few things we can do here.
Speaker 3:One, I think, is the most important, which is the hardest to do, because I don't want to speak for everyone, but in some ways we're all addicted. You have to shut them off, set timers, set reminders, set limits, have a social life that's outside of the digital world, have hobbies, have a family, go out like, go in the real world. Now, I understand that's very hard to do for some people, including me sometimes. So it's just one piece. Another one actually is actually leaving toxic groups and things of that nature as well, even if they're unintended and people are well-intended.
Speaker 3:What I say is we need less doom-scrolling, and if something doesn't have utility or levity to help your mental health, you should probably not use it that much. And if you cannot help yourself, which a lot of us can't again, I'm always accusing myself too sometimes it's better to remove yourself, to abstain from that feed or whatever, whatever it is. So I think that's really important is to to to be self-aware of again your digital diet. Where is this stuff coming from? Like you got to reduce it, move something like let's just use Instagram and group chat and stuff. For instance, turn off notifications for one.
Speaker 3:That will help reduce and cries and social media manager well, see, well, we can get into that too, but that's why I've left social a couple times now. But um, oh man. So that's another thing. We're not talking about social media management or people who are in that career. That's tough, but for Jews, I look. I think here's the other thing too. And I said this, I swear, I said this.
Speaker 3:I have a video on my profile like a few days after I swear, a few days after October 7th, I might have still been in Israel. I said we got it. Or maybe I was in Greece and I was doing a TV interview because I was on my way home and I was like, look, I swear, five, six days in. I was like we've already seen a lifetime of death, we've got our fill, you don't need any more. Like you don't. And look, I'll even say it on the other side, as you might put it, what's there to gain by seeing more dead, more dead people, more violence, more harassment. Like we get it, we get it. We're in a war, people are dying.
Speaker 1:But it's hard to ignore, it's hard to like, not like. I need to know every day, every morning I'm like what happened last night?
Speaker 2:Yeah but I do, I have family in Israel Like it's, like it's it's intense for me, I want to make sure they're okay and like it's just you know okay, let me challenge you.
Speaker 3:How does that? How does that help? You know, they're okay.
Speaker 1:I know, but like it's just, I need to know, like what's going on. I don't know.
Speaker 3:Look and I'll respect you. I don't have family and we have. You're saying we should all be Delulu and just like. No, we need to reduce it significantly because ignorance isn't the solution either. Right, and unfortunately, it's one of the one of those examples where it's like where's the balance? And everyone has to figure out their own balance between information, overload of doom scrolling and what is the actual amount of of content that I need to be up to date?
Speaker 1:What do you think on average, is like a good amount of, like a limit to limit yourself?
Speaker 3:Like time on social.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Again, that's. It depends what your diet is. What are you watching dogs?
Speaker 1:45 minutes.
Speaker 3:If you're watching doom stuff, then, yeah, you can catch up on the news and the latest anti-semitic attack in in 10-15 minutes, let's be honest, in a day. So, but but here's the thing. We're fighting nature and we're fighting these algorithms which promote the most emotion, the most emotional stuff. So it's it. It's not actually easy to do. I don't even want to overstate how simple this is, but one thing I've I've actually done, um, that's been helping me, um, at least on my Instagram.
Speaker 3:Um, I don't use TikTok, but, um, my, my feed itself, like the feed I actually created, is, you know, lots of Israelis and Jews and news and all that stuff. But the like For you, or whatever the hell the thing's called, I never really used it, believe it or not. I'm a weirdo, maybe, on that sense. I usually just use the feed of like people I'm following. The last like couple weeks, I've been spending a lot more time in that For you page, which can be dangerous depending on what your algorithm is, but I found in there, luckily, somehow. Mine's just all funny shit. It's like just crazy funny shit and some of it is maybe I have some political leanings.
Speaker 1:I have like emo, emo quotes. I don't know why I have like I wish I had my phone. I could read some of the funny like emo quotes. And then there's like quick quotes in Hebrew. It's like kind of weird.
Speaker 2:I'm like I don't. This is a weird for you page. What's on your? What's on your for you page?
Speaker 1:I've been on my for you page Literally only the times you've asked me should I look, make sure there's no naked bitches.
Speaker 2:I haven't been on my for you. No, yeah, one other thing.
Speaker 3:What's the word I want to use? Um, go, go, go through your following and fall following like you know, list. Go make some cuts, like who needs? Like, be real, be more selective of the things you are following, because the things you're following and interact with will influence the algorithmic content that you didn't ask to see. So go make some cuts, like get some stuff out that you don't need and what you can do.
Speaker 3:The algorithm is a very interesting thing to use like a physical analogy. It's like a, it's like a large ship. You can steer it. You can change the type of content you get, but it's a slow, slow process to steer a ship, I mean like an aircraft carrier. So one way is to change who you're following and then change who you're interacting with and content that may be doomy. Don't interact with it. Actually, scroll past it quickly, right, you know this as marketers as well. Like part of it is engagement, it's positive reinforcement, but part of it is time that it's on the screen. So get past it quickly. It will slowly steer the ship. But also go out of your way to go follow pages with the animals and crafting, whatever your hobbies and interests are, and then intentionally over-engage with those pages to slowly train the algorithm that you want a little bit more of that.
Speaker 1:That sounds so relaxing, like a little hobby crafting doggies. Wow, oh my God, imagine like cute stuff babies, everything I share with my family is that stuff?
Speaker 3:it's dogs, cats, memes, memes, uh, travel like.
Speaker 1:The stuff I share with my family is all like wholesome shit, like nice, uplifting, cool, cute, funny stuff that's what we need though right dark doomy shit they should do a setting on instagram where it's like you turn it off and it like and your feed completely changes, like if you want the news, it's like separates it oh, yeah, yeah, that'd be a cool thing, like like I'm in, I'm in like happy mode, like give me the happy stuff and like here's 10 minutes of new, of news of what I'm doing. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:like yeah, yeah yeah I feel like that'd be genius, but well, they would never do that because it's of news, of what I do. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like, yeah, I feel like that'd be genius, but well, they would never do that because it's against their business interests. Actually, one little um, damn it Weird. There's one little um uh uh, easter egg People don't know this on Instagram. You can actually get rid of the algorithm. On Instagram, you can actually get rid of the algorithm. How do you do that? There's an Instagram logo I don't want to show you everything.
Speaker 1:Click it, can you see?
Speaker 3:Yeah, click the logo and there's a drop down menu Okay, following and now you won't see anything that you're not following and it's in chronological order.
Speaker 1:It's just chronological order I want. Oh, I miss those days.
Speaker 3:It's chronological order and it's only people you follow. So, but they don't want you to know that. The ui ux team makes it absolutely impossible to know almost that. That's even a dropdown menu, because it's not in their interest. They added it just to say they, you could do that and of course, I would bet my life on it.
Speaker 1:I'm changing it tomorrow. It sounds amazing, clean it up, but I I follow like. I feel like in the last year I was just followed. I just want every news out like Israeli news outlet, left right. I want to see the perspectives, I want to know what's going on. It's too much, though.
Speaker 1:It's way too much my mom will call me. She's like did you hear? I'm like Mom, I heard it three days ago. She'll send me a YouTube video of Bill Mayer. I'm like I saw it a month ago, yeah, and like I'm like I saw it like a month ago. Like yeah, it's great. But she's like she's like when do you have time to? How do you know everything? You know like.
Speaker 3:She's like mom, come on, yeah, yeah, well, look, I think this is super important. As much as I may sound educated on this, I still don't do most of these things because it's that hard. We're really up against biology and we're against technology. It seems like a losing battle, but we have to really really try. Everyone needs to really really protect their mental health. We cannot be in a perpetual state of depression and maybe even more common, anxiety. It has literally permanent effects on us. So I think this is um, it's like I said, it's no different than your, your, your, your diet. This is your digital diet and your digital diet is the key way is the is the is the gateway to your mental health.
Speaker 1:Wow, this was an awesome conversation. So, okay, let's switch up real before we like conclude everything. What do you do for fun, like, what do you? What do you do like on the weekends and stuff.
Speaker 3:Not much. Jiu Jitsu is big in my life. It's been hard to go to that for me. The irony is it's hard for me to go to that when I'm not in a good place, even though that is the best place for me to be in that time. So I typically do something less social, which isn't healthy, and go to the gym. I like to, I like to work out and go on the treadmill and my escapism is is education.
Speaker 3:I think I was telling Tony this sort of where I alluded to like I don't know shit about, like pop culture and movies and like like I don't know that world. I'm like I just like watched YouTube videos and books and podcasts and like I'm just like addicted to education. So that's kind of how I spent a lot of my time outside of work and social media. But I've actually started thinking or realizing that I need more escapism, and education isn't escapism for me at least. I think I take it very seriously, so it's not escapism. So now I'm trying to find some new hobbies actually right now, and find maybe new communities based around hobbies and interests as well, because I myself am not spending enough time outside of this, this doom scrolly world.
Speaker 1:Um, so yeah, and I hear you're also looking for an Israeli wife. Oh my God.
Speaker 3:It just outed me. Hey, I'm single. Look, he's single. Ladies, I'm only getting older. What's your type?
Speaker 1:Let's do a shiduch. Let's do a shiduch.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, he's open for hobbies. Let's shiduch, you.
Speaker 1:Come on, you know I'm a Jewish mom. Like it's a biggest mitzvah. Are you kidding? Okay?
Speaker 3:Like it's a biggest mitzvah. Are you kidding? Okay, what's your type? What?
Speaker 1:what kind of what's your like celebrity crush.
Speaker 3:Oh, a celebrity crush Again. I don't even watch TV, but, um, okay, I never I've been put on the spot, but I mean I, if we're talking like what are we talking like background, physically?
Speaker 3:Like like background physically like what are we talking? Yeah, just give me a little type. Well, I would actually say on on paper, someone who understands both the american culture and israeli culture is important to me because I I grew up with middle eastern people from at least teenager on, believe it or not. So I grew up with just lots of people from the Middle East. So I actually and I speak Hebrew.
Speaker 3:So for me, like I'll give you again, I'm generalizing, but like an American Jew can be tough for me because I feel like I need someone who really understands the Israeli culture, israel, the language, middle Eastern culture that can be tough for me. But on the other hand, someone on the you know Israel, the language, middle Eastern culture, that can be tough for me. But on the other hand, someone on the you know from Israel, who's who's who's super Israeli or you know whatever that's not, that's not an insult who may not understand some of the nuances of American culture and things of that nature, would also be tough for me. So I think someone who's who kind of has either, who is either American, israeli, israeli, american, someone who's who kind of has either, who is either american, israeli, israeli, american, um or lived in both countries I tend to to vibe with.
Speaker 1:That's very, very specific it is.
Speaker 3:That's a problem, isn't it? He got one.
Speaker 1:He got one I can attest. They're pretty. They're pretty amazing. Yeah, the half c's. It's their half. They're half. They're pretty amazing. Yeah, the half Cs, it's their half.
Speaker 3:They're half chetzi chetzi, they're like half yeah.
Speaker 1:Half Israeli half.
Speaker 3:American, but I understand reality is very humbling. So I think what's most important, rather than demographics and features, is of but someone that you just feel yourself around, regardless of whether they're what, whether they're Israeli, american or what have you.
Speaker 1:So that's but ladies, his DMs and he and do you have a job? Do you live with your mom? You don't. Wow, Guys, guys, he's a catch, he's a catch. Where can people slide in your DMs? What's your Insta?
Speaker 3:Talk to Trav T-A-L-K. The number two Trav. Talk. Number two Trav. Awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for your time. This was fun.
Speaker 3:Yes, thank you I learned a lot.
Speaker 1:Now I'm going to go to bed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to go Take. Yes, thank you, I learned a lot. Uh, now I'm gonna go to bed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm gonna go take care of my mental health yeah I won't scroll, I promise. I won't check who watched my stories or that's, it's not possible. It's not possible do you have anything else?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'm convinced that kanye is an irgc plant. Now he was. He said long game. I'm starting to put the pieces together.
Speaker 1:Oh babe, this is not a QAnon podcast.
Speaker 2:It is now All right.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Travis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks guys. Thank you man.